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Messages - Frenzie

Fine, perhaps I should've translated it as general economics then -- which I just noticed is also what the University of Ghent does: You can see what I illustrated there as well: "The department of General Economics is one of the nine departments in the Faculty of Economics and Business Administration of Ghent University." But such words like common or general do tend to reflect a honed definition of the "regular" meaning -- the biggest catch being that it might be the 19th century meaning while the language has otherwise moved on.

The nine departments are the following:

    General Economics
    Financial Economics
    Social Economics
    Accounting, Corporate Finance and Taxation
    Business Informatics and Operations Management
    Innovation, Entrepreneurship and Service Management
    Public Governance, Management and Finance
    Human Resource Management and Organizational Behaviour

Science may be international, but that doesn't mean it's entirely homogenized. In the English-speaking world those two generally just aren't grouped together like that. You've got the social behavioral science of economics and then you've got this separate commerce and business administration thing of which I'm not really sure how it's classified. Perhaps it's more vocational than the arts & sciences, even if it's university-level.

But anyway, we were talking about translation. I contended that a distinction commonly made by regular speakers of German often shouldn't be explicitly kept in English (or Dutch) unless it's important for some reason. Just like how you wouldn't constantly translate shade as shadow of a tree, shadow of a building, etc. unless it held some relevance. I would imagine that in a scientific text for shadeologists, it probably does. If you think all distinctions should be kept, then you're either a bad translator or a translator in a very specific niche. ;)
The Lounge / Re: This or that?

Monkey or ape?
DnD Central / Re: Infrastructure
This comparison of schematic metro lines with their actual geography is quite topical.
Instead of "Volkswirtschaft" you can also say "Nationalökonomie". It means the same, even today.  :)
"Volkswirtschaftslehre" always relates to a "Volkswirtschaft". E.g. die deutsche Volkswirtschaft, die chinesische Volkswirtschaft, ... or to "Volkswirtschaften" (verschiedener Staaten wie die der USA oder China).
In that case my understanding could be slightly wrong, but the Wikipedia page you linked doesn't seem to disagree with my understanding of the matter.

According to Dutch Wikipedia "economics" can be roughly divided into:

  • economics (in the English meaning, i.e., the common core of economics which includes micro, macro, econometrics, etc., all the stuff the German Wikipedia page for Volkswirtschaftslehre also speaks of)
  • business economics
  • fiscal economics
  • commercial economics

In English the latter three would be subsets of applied economics. Actually I'm not sure that they aren't in Dutch. In any case economics typically means the common core of economics and it's not really used as as superset together with applied economics. Neither Dutch nor English systematically distinguish between the science of economics in a wider sense and the common core of economics, but in English I'm not even sure if there really is a standard way to refer to this distinction.

German Wikipedia seems to go by a very similar distinction as Dutch, namely "Im deutschen Sprachraum wird die Wirtschaftswissenschaft üblicherweise in die Bereiche Betriebswirtschaftslehre (BWL) und Volkswirtschaftslehre (VWL, Nationalökonomie) unterteilt."

Quote from: ersi
"common economics" is just as good as "economics" with nothing to specify it.
That's Dutch, not English. Sorry if I caused any confusion. :) But it does refer to the same distinction as in German as far as I can tell. It might seem odd to say that common economics is not systematically distinguished from economics, but I'd say it's really no different than noting that the common housefly is not normally distinguished from the (house)fly. The word "common" basically just signifies that which we normally mean when we say x, which can be distinguished from the broader concept or category of super-x. It does make translation harder because that which Dutch or English speakers commonly mean by "economics" is not the same as German speakers. Too bad for the machines. :P
The Lounge / Re: This or that?

Eggs or cheese?
- Volkswirtschaftslehre is something more specified compared to Wirtschaftswissenschaft because the former is (said to be) the subset of the latter, not the other way round
It's a subset of sorts but I think it would be more accurate to call it the core of economics. Hence why I calqued it as common economics (from Dutch algemene economie): the theoretical common overlapping framework of economics. In Dutch and English that's what you mean when you say "economics" without any further specification (as distinct from, e.g., business economics, which is more or less the Dutch/German way of saying applied economics[1]).

The term economics replaced "political economy," as in the study of the economies of political entities, which includes but is not limited to nation states. In German the term political/national economy was replaced by Volkswirtschaftslehre in the Weimar Republic. I suspect that both you and @krake are basically confused by English here, not by German.

@krake Economics doesn't include business studies in that way in English insofar as English even has our kind of business studies at all. What you see in this explanation of a Bachelor of Economics (Bachelor Volkswirtschaftslehre) is what "economics" means in English:
Die Volkswirtschaftslehre beschäftigt sich mit der Frage, wie die Gesellschaft mit ihren knappen Ressourcen umgeht. Zunächst werden die Entscheidungen der einzelnen Wirtschaftseinheiten, d.h. der Haushalte und der Unternehmen analysiert. In einem nächsten Schritt wird untersucht, wie diese Vielzahl von Entscheidungen miteinander koordiniert wird und ob das Ergebnis aus gesamtwirtschaftlicher Sicht wünschenswert ist. Schliesslich werden die sich daraus ergebenden wirtschaftspolitischen Massnahmen, insbesondere im Hinblick auf Innovation, Wachstum, Arbeitslosigkeit und Inflation, untersucht.

Auf Grund der breit gefächerten Ausbildung gehören die Volkswirte eher zu den Generalisten unter den Studienabgänger/innen. Ihre Beschäftigungssituation erweist sich als überdurchschnittlich gut. Der Übergang vom Studium zum Beruf verläuft in der Regel reibungslos. Der Anteil der Arbeitsuchenden mit einem Abschluss in Wirtschaftswissenschaften liegt traditionsgemäss weit unter dem der Stellensuchenden anderer Studienrichtungen.
Wikipedia would have you believe it's "business administration" but Flemish universities tell me it's much more theoretically inclined than the Anglo-Saxon semi-equivalent.
When you say plain "economics", you are not saying much, not distinguishing anything, such as, say, microeconomics (economics of a single entreprise) from macroeconomics.
@krake can correct me if I'm wrong, but indeed you aren't. With those German words you're talking about the whole of economic theory (micro, macro, econometrics, international/political, institutional). Or in English, just plain old economics. The other branch of economics is something like business economics or applied economics and in German this distinction happens to be made more systematically. But being more precise (albeit not in the way you'd think) doesn't necessarily make for a good translation. It can just as easily be awkward and pedantic.
The Lounge / Re: Random Chat
Probably just the default free 5 GB. ;)
 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

To be fair, that is essentially what it says even if it is stylistically awkward. Volkswirtschaftslehre means something like "common economics" or "common science [or teachings] of economics"[1] and the rest is nothing but synonyms (national economics, political economics, social economics) that all mean economics affecting society in the broader sense. For most intents and purposes you'd just call that economics. In many contexts that would either be a very good or quite simply the best translation.

However, you confused Google Translate by typoing Volkswirtschaftslehre. In German nouns are capitalized. Fixing it up seems to improve the translation ever so slightly.

Die Volkswirtschaftslehre (auch Nationalökonomie, Wirtschaftliche Staatswissenschaften, oder Sozialökonomie, kurz VWL) ist ein Teilgebiet der Wirtschaftswissenschaft.

The economics of economics (including economics, economics, economics, social economics, economics) is a sub-area of economics.
Not economics of economics, obviously.
DnD Central / Re: Infrastructure
These are three  tunnels (plus tunnels for railroad).
Doesn't that reduce the single point of failure-y-ness? :devil:
DnD Central / Re: Infrastructure
They are worth a look btw. Here's Stockholm. Can you say "Single point of failure"? I knew you could (that will improve in a couple years from now).
Such graphs can be deceptive though. It could just as easily mean three tunnels and stations that are close to each other as three lines that go through one tunnel.
Were I a slightly different kind of person, I would've squealed for joy over the Bayerischer Rundfunk website. While I'm used to workarounds to get the content I like in a sane format,[1] their website comes with built-in download links for your convenience. The sheer quantity of choices is somewhat excessive, but why not I suppose.

XXL    3,8 Mbit/s    für > DSL 6000    69 MB
XL    2 Mbit/s    für > DSL 2000    33 MB
L    1,2 Mbit/s    für > DSL 1500    21 MB
M    600 Kbit/s    für > DSL 1000    10 MB
S    370 Kbit/s    für UMTS    5 MB
XS    180 Kbit/s    für EDGE    3 MB

On a separate note, Arte destroyed their website. It's borderline impossible to find nice things.
Mostly through youtube-dl.
The Lounge / Re: True or false?

You've built a LEGO flying saucer.
DnD Central / Re: Infrastructure
It looks like Glasgow is the only city on this list with a metro built before the 1990s that hasn't had an extension.

But extension is one thing, actually using it another. In the time I've been living in Antwerp a whole new tunnel and various tunnel segments of the metro have been added to the metro network.[1] Those tunnels had been lying in wait since the late '70s. Brussels also has at least one ghost station dating from 1988.
Premetro network if you wish to be pedantic about it.
The Lounge / Re: True or false?

You wonder what to do with empty cocoa powder containers.
This probably amused me more than it should've. Posting it here 'cause Fb is one of those major battery hogs on many users' phones (not mine).
btw, this will allow users to pick which of your attachments from that page to share from the share-dialog box (if that feature is still supported, idk, i'm a fb-dev not a fb-user). (emphasis mine)
English say, German sagen, Dutch zaggen, Swedish säga, Danish sige, Norwegian si seems to mean utter.
That's zeggen in Dutch. :P

Swedish snacka, Norwegian snakke, have a conversation, seems to come from Dutch (snappy) remark, and so does English snack.
Huh, I don't recall having come across that while reading Middle Dutch texts. Here's the entry in the Middle Dutch dictionary. In Modern Dutch snakken means something like to crave or to desire intently, e.g., Romeo snakt naar Julia. I suppose you could also translate that as "Romeo has an appetite for Juliette" if you wish to stick closer to the English meaning of snack. The Middle Dutch dictionary says that snakken and snappen are practically the same word in etymology and meaning.

According to the book Verholen verwanten (hidden relatives, i.e., cognates that aren't obvious) that I acquired recently, etymologically snatch is the same verb as snakken. The Random House Dictionary supports this: "1175-1225; Middle English snacche (noun), snacchen (v.) < ?; cognate with Middle Dutch snacken."

Many of the hidden relatives aren't particularly hidden if you have some basic linguistic knowledge of English/Germanic sound changes as well as Middle Dutch and Middle English, but the fact that given the time I could also have compiled the book shouldn't be taken as disparagement. It's a fun little reference work that primarily combines the knowledge of the Van Dale etymological dictionary and the OED, but many others as well.
The Lounge / Re: True or false?

You got tired of Alan Wake.
The Lounge / Re: What is your weather now?
Yup, pretty warm.
Yes, kennen is regular Dutch (and German). We have the distinction between kennen and weten (German wissen), absent from English. Same as French connaitre and savoir.
kalla of course means to name something/someone. Not in Dutch?
Kallen used to exist as a verb back in Middle Dutch, but nowadays in the standard language only the pejorative noun kal remains (silly babbling), as well as the derived verb raaskallen (delirious driveling). According to the 1917 entry in the WNT the verb kallen still exists regionally in the positive/neutral sense (of speaking/talking), which is still true in modern-day Flanders in 2017. The Middle Dutch dictionary doesn't list any sense of "naming", only speaking, notifying, telling, uttering and babbling.

Note that I'm using Flanders in the more historical/linguistic meaning, referring to the County of Flanders (or the present-day provinces of West and East Flanders). Here in Antwerp the Antwerpish/Brabantic equivalent is klappen. Maybe it has something to do with the clapping motion of a jaw while talking. Standard Dutch has spreken (cf. German sprechen) and praten. Funnily enough, the English verb prate/prattle has taken on the same pejorative meaning of excessive babbling as kallen has in Dutch.
Mind, Frenzie, I'm not saying I disagree with Belfrager's characterization. I'm just noting that he doesn't seem to understand that we both inhabit the same planet. I think we can get along, 'tho we disagree about a lot; he seems to think we can't.
I disagree with leftist. Possibly multicultural depending on what is meant by that. I was explicitly taking position against multicultural appeasement, after all. I would disagree with relativist for much the same reason.

Philosophically speaking I'm a moral relativist, but that hardly means that whether or not slavery exists in a culture doesn't make it objectively better or worse, which is generally what people want to imply by saying something like "relativist". A fairly decent write-up about that subject can be found here.

But -seriously- do you think Islam is capable of a "reformation"?
I don't see why not, and I'd argue that the Salafi movement is the Reformation (sola scriptura). ISIS isn't dissimilar to our wars of religion. If you continue the parallel then the UAE is like the early Calvinist Dutch Republic and Saudi Arabia like one or more of the larger Lutheran German states. What you mean is Enlightenment. Disturbingly, that seems to be headed in the wrong direction in countries like Egypt, Pakistan, and Indonesia. At the same time, thanks to the Internet enlightenment thought is making significant inroads into previously shut-off countries like Iran, much like how Dutch, Swiss, and Belgian printers used to print enlightenment pamphlets and books for the French market. I'm confident that we can win the war of ideas. It's just a pity that multicultural appeasement denies there's a conflict.
My own batchelor's thingie is most likely uninteresting to you. It's contrasting Finnish and Estonian orthography, not very interesting even for myself these days.
Maybe, maybe not. I actually thought that the chapters on Spanish, French, English and German in Orthographies in Early Modern Europe were interesting enough to read, not skim. The chapter on Swedish I read more selectively and I don't yet know what I'll do with Polish.

Hopefully my address works. If not, I will make it work.
Yes, that is the core of machine translation. Large corpora of translated texts (official EU texts being a major source) are used as input to teach the machine. Such sources are made more explicit on a site like Click the down arrow on the right → link to source and you'll see it automatically grabs context from TED talks, European parliament documents,[1] opensubtitles, etc. I quite like because it collects the results of previous human translations, which can include reformulations of idiomatic or figurative phrases at which machine translation is notoriously bad. Note that fairly recently, Google Translate claims to have improved by leaps and bounds, which is true. The announcement in September '16 was only about Chinese, but by now I think it's been upgraded on most or all languages.

Of course you're quite right that the machine doesn't actually know what things mean. But at the same time it's capable of some very impressive tricks related to noticing patterns. It doesn't know what pets or farm animals are, for example, but the algorithm can actually notice that words like cat and dog are often used in similar contexts. As such it has been demonstrated to be able to make a very educated guess at translating a word like dog between two languages even if there is not a singe human-made translation of the word available to teach it.

PS If you're interested I could mail you my bachelor's thesis. I like to think I wrote a pretty decent overview of the inner workings of machine translation.
This is what results in translating London to Amsterdam.