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Topic: What's Going on in Europe (Read 52580 times)

What's Going on in Europe
Portugal is weeping, Geert Wilders Says Netherlands Would Be Better Off if It Left 28-Nation Bloc, France can't compete with Germany, Merkel is pissed at Obama, Belgium is ousting Afgans. Is anybody happy?

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #850
I don't think he will be some kind of wonderful saviour for France. He went from the far left to the centre to get somewhere and principles just a handy passing word.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Frenzie
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  • Administrator
Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #851
I forget if there's a more appropriate thread for this. Initial Dutch government formation negotiations have failed:

Just in: the negotiations between VVD, CDA, D66, and GL have failed. I assume that means that CU will be swapped in for GL. The question is who's going to get the blame.

Informer Schippers (VVD) blamed not one of the parties, but several sharp disagreements, notably on migration, but also on climate and income, for the failure. The party leaders concurred: apparently the decision to break off the negotiations was taken by all of them, instead of one party leaving the table.

It would be interesting to hear more about the exact nature of the disagreements, but that won't happen tonight. The party leaders are being very disciplined so far: they know they might be required to run a reprise of this round of negotiations later on, and there's no point in hurting anyone's feelings.

[...]

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #852
Another Quirksmode follower, I see (though I admit I haven't been too loyal, it has been more off than on the last decade).

There's a while to go before the Netherlands reach Belgian "we need no stinking government". I get a little Czech deja vu though, but I hope the Dutch political scene isn't as immature as that though.

The Czechs started democracy with a number of unusual parties. Then normalisation (being professional, as Klaus claimed) set in, and they got the normal political spectrum, with ostensibly Social Democrats battled ostensibly Market Liberal, with anti-democratic parties on either wing and some minor players. Now fatigue has set in, and a number of "fresh" parties battling the previous fresh batch, which experience has been shown to be stale.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #853
Europe just wants to be free! :)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • Frenzie
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  • Administrator
Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #854
Another Quirksmode follower, I see (though I admit I haven't been too loyal, it has been more off than on the last decade).
Quirksmode is one of those sites you just couldn't get around in the early 2000s. I remain subscribed to the newsfeed, but in recent years I haven't actually read much other than the newer Political Quirks blog. Sometimes it offers useful analyses, but mostly it's my go-to English source for foreigners.

There's a while to go before the Netherlands reach Belgian "we need no stinking government". I get a little Czech deja vu though, but I hope the Dutch political scene isn't as immature as that though.
It's far from irregular for the initial phase of negotiations to fail. They're still probing each other.

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #855
The Netherlands is in a messed up political situation with the would-be shared government. The issue of immigration is a problem as the nutty Greens are part of the complete open door nonsense and a proper government cannot still be steeled after months.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Belfrager
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #856
The only thing going on in Europe is France, so please stop about invisible, irrelevant, Dutch and the sort.
The future of France will determine the future of Europe.

With the obvious exception of Portugal that needs France for nothing.
A matter of attitude.

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #857
The Netherlands is a more advanced place than your Iberian corner. Well you lot cannot exist without Europe and you get more out than you put in. Are you lot trained in begging bowls....?
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #858
The issue of immigration is a problem as the nutty Greens are part of the complete open door nonsense and a proper government cannot still be steeled after months.
Are they? Back in 2010 or so I was rather offended by a number of tweets by their party members *cough*the criminal pamphleteer and the smoker herself*cough* suggesting most non-European women wishing to emigrate to the Netherlands are "import brides". They're a bunch of two-faced sanctimonious hypocrites as far as I'm concerned.

Nevertheless, overall they're reasonably sound, with evidence-based policies just like D66 and VVD. CDA is the party that sounds good in principle, but completely ignores whether the things they suggest have a basis in reality. The PVV (Wilders') party has such disdain for the voter that they didn't even bother to put up more than about one A4 worth of so-called party program. SGP (fundamentalist Protestants) is similarly evidence-based and quite rational. Do I agree that women shouldn't work? Well, not exactly (but I'm certainly not against the one-earner idea -- it's just that it might as well be the wife), but unlike the SP's disastrous ideas about leaving the EU when processed by the CBS (central bureau for statistics) you can actually see that their policies would have the desired economic outcome.

A party that suggests things that are well-known to be ineffective (e.g., look at America's prison system) does not deserve a vote no matter how lofty they might sound. I try to ignore gut feeling (e.g., instinctive agreement with the CDA's "punishment is punishment") as much as possible when voting and try to actually take the facts into consideration. What actually reduces recidivism? What actually reduces drug use? And I'm proud that our Dutch politics are some of the most evidence-based, technocratic in the world. Our rates of drug use, teen pregnancies, recidivism, deaths during child birth,[1] etc. are some of the lowest in the world precisely because of this.

With migration it's similarly hard to see much of an actual problem, except that contrary to popular noise it's too hard to obtain a working or residential permit. That causes, e.g., Brazilians to come over illegally instead of legally and not pay taxes or integrate properly. I mean this from the perspective of countries like Belgium, the Netherlands or Germany. A smaller country like Estonia being swamped with Russians could be something very different. Unfortunately rational discussion about migration is borderline impossible. The left seems to be dead-set on opposing anything Wilders says even when he's right. The right meanwhile is afraid to be sufficiently rational about it because they're afraid to lose too many gut-voters to Wilders. In the end that means D66 and VVD are more likely to be right than GL but they're still bordering on nonsense. I find it a worrisome development.

The only thing going on in Europe is France, so please stop about invisible, irrelevant, Dutch and the sort.
The most interesting thing I've learned from following French media is how much significance they impart to the Netherlands. Which, economically speaking, makes sense.
Note that many take place at home.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #859
Might I mention again: Islam is a faith diametrically opposed to any form of democracy? And the faith cannot reform...
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #860
Well Frenzie the Green nutters are open to hugging unlimited immigrants. Someone needs to remind these very lefty empty heads that we live on an island.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #861
Do we? You mean the world?

  • ersi
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #862
Britain is an island. Scotland is another island. Almost. It's a fake island.

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #863
Might I mention again: Islam is a faith diametrically opposed to any form of democracy? And the faith cannot reform...
I thought that so were you? :)

I suppose you might be connecting the socialist-Catholic proclivity for multicultural appeasement, better known under the misnomer of respect, with the overall pro-migration vision of a liberal(-democrat). That would be a mistake. The GroenLinks (GreenLeft) type of thought @rjhowie was talking about likes to define white men as the oppressors, which makes (supposedly[1]) non-white men the oppressed by definition.
In the Middle East they're still part of the "white" Caucasian race.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #864
I thought that so were you?  :)
Not any form, Frenzie!
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • Belfrager
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #865
I suppose you might be connecting the socialist-Catholic proclivity for multicultural appeasement, better known under the misnomer of respect, with the overall pro-migration vision of a liberal(-democrat).
And what the fuck you mean by that, atheist leftist multicultural pro homosexual northern relativist?
A matter of attitude.

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #866
What a silly thing from ersi even allowing for where he comes from!
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #867
atheist leftist multicultural pro homosexual northern relativist?
Hey, Bel, couldn't your spleen have spewed a little bit more? It seems like you're suffering that southern malady, ennui... (Don't you wish your language had a word like that? :) )
Mind, Frenzie, I'm not saying I disagree with Belfrager's characterization. I'm just noting that he doesn't seem to understand that we both inhabit the same planet. I think we can get along, 'tho we disagree about a lot; he seems to think we can't.

If I recall correctly, we got here via the presumed (by me, at least...) divide between Moslem and (used-to-be) Christian civilizations.
I think that still matters, since Islam is about 700 years behind us!

But -seriously- do you think Islam is capable of a "reformation"?
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • Frenzie
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  • Administrator
Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #868
Mind, Frenzie, I'm not saying I disagree with Belfrager's characterization. I'm just noting that he doesn't seem to understand that we both inhabit the same planet. I think we can get along, 'tho we disagree about a lot; he seems to think we can't.
I disagree with leftist. Possibly multicultural depending on what is meant by that. I was explicitly taking position against multicultural appeasement, after all. I would disagree with relativist for much the same reason.

Philosophically speaking I'm a moral relativist, but that hardly means that whether or not slavery exists in a culture doesn't make it objectively better or worse, which is generally what people want to imply by saying something like "relativist". A fairly decent write-up about that subject can be found here.

But -seriously- do you think Islam is capable of a "reformation"?
I don't see why not, and I'd argue that the Salafi movement is the Reformation (sola scriptura). ISIS isn't dissimilar to our wars of religion. If you continue the parallel then the UAE is like the early Calvinist Dutch Republic and Saudi Arabia like one or more of the larger Lutheran German states. What you mean is Enlightenment. Disturbingly, that seems to be headed in the wrong direction in countries like Egypt, Pakistan, and Indonesia. At the same time, thanks to the Internet enlightenment thought is making significant inroads into previously shut-off countries like Iran, much like how Dutch, Swiss, and Belgian printers used to print enlightenment pamphlets and books for the French market. I'm confident that we can win the war of ideas. It's just a pity that multicultural appeasement denies there's a conflict.

  • Belfrager
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #869
(Don't you wish your language had a word like that?  :)  )
We have, ennui means exactly enfado.
Maybe you find the double "n" exotic to you but I find the enfado sonority much more signifying and meaningful than a word that finishes with such "ui" sound.
Quote from: OakdaleFTL
I think that still matters, since Islam is about 700 years behind us!
By that reasoning, Christians are several thousand years behind politeists and animists...
A matter of attitude.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #870
By that reasoning, Christians are several thousand years behind politeists and animists...
Oh? Polytheists and animists have updated their beliefs? :)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #871
Islam having a reformation? Little chance.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Barulheira
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #872
Polytheists and animists have updated their beliefs? :)
Yes, they have. Go to the Esoteric corner. :)

  • Belfrager
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #873
Oh? Polytheists and animists have updated their beliefs?  :)

For Oakdale "updating" is the demonstration of superiority. Very much Trump-American.
Moral relativism at it's best. The way up for the lower social intelectual classes, "updating".

When I get older I want to update..
Like the Beatles, when I'm sixty four....
A matter of attitude.

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #874
Ah, the Beatles. I still have a selection of their LP's.
"Quit you like men:be strong"