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Topic: Firefox to become adware? (Read 4381 times)

Firefox to become adware?
In a sense, yes. At an undisclosed time, Firefox will begin showing "new" users sponsored tiles on the tabpage. source One poster in the forum argues that Mozilla folks have to eat, too. But they already eat quite well from the money the receive from Google. But the problem for isn't that browser is monetized. This shows a decline in integrity on Mozilla's part.

Now why the quotes around "new?" In the developed world, there aren't too many people without internet. For example, as of Dec 2011, the internet penetration in the US was 78.3% of the population, which is actually less than most of the developed world. How many of the remaining 22.7% are young children or the elderly. The US does have more children as percentage of the population than say, the EU or Japan. I believe the internet penetration of emerging market economies such as Mexico ("officially" only only 29.4% as of Dec 10) is vastly under-reported, with the place being littered with crowded internet cafes and the continued growth of 3 and 4G wireless networks as well more deployment of cable and DSL internet. So again, what new users?

  • krake
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Re: Firefox to become adware?
Reply #25

Well, my keyboard.ini says this:

- Shift + c for cookies
- j for UserJS, Shift + j for JS

That's fine  and fits the needs of most users.
Nevertheless for some reason I prefer visible checkmarks/buttons showing me the state of these setting all the time.


Ever try F12 in Otter? Works just like in Opera.

I have my checkmarks/buttons on Opera's addressbar. I assume Otter doesn't have them. :P


Anyway, from your short list Otter not only suffices, but actually surpasses Opera to fall more or less in line with K-Meleon and Firefox with FoxyProxy, while Vivaldi and Opera/Blink do not. And that's really more of an objective than a subjective fact, anyway. :P

The list would be longer if I'd add all the Fx-forks since I assume that most extensions would work with them too.
I made an exception with K-Meleon because even so it is based on FxESR it is the only one offering more features out of the box than Fx itself.
Nice to hear good things about Otter. :) The more choices one has, the better.


Me, I think the idea of needing an extension like NoScript to switch off JS is a travesty.

Indeed it is. However NoScript is not mandatory for that. In fact I don't use NoScript. There is also a very simple extention ( makes a shortcut to the pref and generates a button) for toggling JS.

  • Frenzie
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Re: Firefox to become adware?
Reply #26
That's fine  and fits the needs of most users.
Nevertheless for some reason I prefer visible checkmarks/buttons showing me the state of these setting all the time.

That's what I was saying:
My indicators are for Opera Link, Opera Turbo (it's a proxy, btw), images, CSS, UserCSS, Referrer, UserJS, JS, cookies, and fit to width.

It looks like this:

On rare occasions I even use them for toggling things with the mouse, but their main purpose is indicating.

I assume Otter doesn't have them.  :P

An assumption that keeps being proved wrong.  :devil: Better to actually try the program so you can comment on how what is actually there isn't quite to your liking. :P For instance, the toggles exist but don't have a toggle icon, so I can't set it up quite the way I have it in Opera just yet. In a way Otter is like the early Opera 7 betas, but with some Opera 8.x features like site preferences thrown in for good measure. For me, Otter is lightyears ahead of Vivaldi, except Vivaldi has some in-your-face features like addressbar suggestions.

Indeed it is. However NoScript is not mandatory for that. In fact I don't use NoScript. There is also a very simple extention ( makes a shortcut to the pref and generates a button) for toggling JS.

I thought they yanked out that setting last year or so? In any case, NoScript or something similar is necessary if you want simple site preferences/whitelists. And besides, an extension for a basic built-in toggle like that is still preposterous.  :yes:
  • Last Edit: 2015-08-30, 15:27:28 by Frenzie

  • krake
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Re: Firefox to become adware?
Reply #27

That's what I was saying:
My indicators are for Opera Link, Opera Turbo (it's a proxy, btw), images, CSS, UserCSS, Referrer, UserJS, JS, cookies, and fit to width.

It looks like this:

On rare occasions I even use them for toggling things with the mouse, but their main purpose is indicating.

Sorry, somehow I managed to overlook it.
Looking at your image - don't you ever mix those checkmarks up?  :devil:


Better to actually try the program so you can comment on how what is actually there isn't quite to your liking. :P For instance, the toggles exist but don't have a toggle icon, so I can't set it up quite the way I have it in Opera just yet.

As far as I can see the toggles have  2 states - pressed and depressed, meaning on and off.

BTW, I did test Otter now.(v0.9.0.7) :)
It would need many hours, maybe days for a more thoroughly test.
Since I tested only for aprox 2 hours my findings should be taken with a pinch of salt. ;)
What I missed from the very beginning was a more granulated configuration option. (something Fx offers in its about:config)
The possibility to put toggling buttons which indicates the state of the pref is great!
Unfortunately "Enable JavaScript" and "Enable Proxy" buttons didn't work for me. I couldn't find an "Enable Cookies" button.
I didn't test other available buttons. All my testings were done with "Private Mode" enabled but this shouldn't have any impact. Nevertheless apparently it had an impact. Namely, I had no access (greyed out) to enable cookies, proxy and referrer in "Quick Preferences" [F12]. If this is by design then it's stupid.
Private mode doesn't mean that you can't allow cookies but that they get not written to the disk.
After the third freeze of the scrollbar (I had to restart Otter) I gave up testing.

All in one, it looks really promising but IMHO it's still in a very early stage.

I thought they yanked out that setting last year or so?

Well, I use as third browser the ESR branch which actually is v38.2.1 and the pref is still there in about:config.

  • ersi
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Re: Firefox to become adware?
Reply #28

What I missed from the very beginning was a more granulated configuration option. (something Fx offers in its about:config)

Try about:config in the address field. There's also All settings button in the Preferences dialog.


The possibility to put toggling buttons which indicates the state of the pref is great!
Unfortunately "Enable JavaScript" and "Enable Proxy" buttons didn't work for me. I couldn't find an "Enable Cookies" button.

Here's the list of all available actions (and more to come) https://github.com/OtterBrowser/otter-browser/blob/master/src/core/ActionsManager.h

The idea with the actions is (or should be, and thus far has been, as far as I have tested) that you can take any of them and trigger them by a keyboard shortcut, button, or menu item, putting them into INI and JSON files.

CookiesAction, CookiesPolicyAction, and ThirdPartyCookiesPolicyAction are there. I don't know what they are supposed to do, but if the principle applies, they should be usable in INI and JSON files, to make them into buttons, among other things..

Many of these actions have hardcoded icons to them, i.e. if you use it as a toolbar button, you'll automagically see an icon. Often though there's no icon and there's no mechanism (yet?) to configure icons to the actions. In those case you'll only see the text.

Cookies have been an issue in my usage of Otter. In normal mode, setting cookies off by default causes severe issues in my experience. In private mode, there's no toggling, there's just deletion of traces when you close the tab/window.

So, to make Otter usable for now I permit all cookies and I use it exclusively for websites where I indeed need all cookies permitted. For other websites, I use other browsers or Private window in Otter.

  • krake
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Re: Firefox to become adware?
Reply #29

Try about:config in the address field. There's also All settings button in the Preferences dialog.

That was among the first things I've done after launching Otter. Those prefs are meager compared to what Mozilla offers.
The absence of some prefs (some are privacy related) doesn't mean that Otter doesn't support those features. You just can't turn them off.
However, maybe the prefs will be added in the future.

  • krake
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Re: Firefox to become adware?
Reply #30
My second test with beta7 on Windows didn't differ much from the previous test.
Only notable difference, Otter couldn't start this time after I've unpacked the .zip package. It displayed two error messages about two missing DLLs. After copying the missing DLLs  from Firefox into Otter's folder, i could proudly launch Otter.
This time I didn't test in private mode. However, the results were almost the same. Only almost, because the scrollbar didn't froze this time.
No way to toggle JS through [F12]. You can toggle the checkmark but not the pref. :D  Cookies, Referrer and Proxy are greyed out.
The respective buttons you can place on the tab bar are nice but also none functional.
No way to use a proxy. The settings will vanish as soon as you exit the config window.
I couldn't find a way to disable prefetch. For some people it might be useful but for me it's just nerving.
There are other obscure settings as well (like server-side storage) I'd like to disable but I'm missing the entries in "about:config" .

Well, the browser is in an early beta stage, therefore some shortcomings as the above are usual.
However to affirm that Otter at its actual stage surpasses Opera to fall more or less in line with K-Meleon and Firefox with FoxyProxy is a bit of a strech, to say the least. ;)  Maybe it does already on Linux (even so I have my doubts) but on Windows it'll need a long time. :)

  • Frenzie
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Re: Firefox to become adware?
Reply #31
However to affirm that Otter at its actual stage surpasses Opera to fall more or less in line with K-Meleon and Firefox with FoxyProxy is a bit of a strech, to say the least.  ;)

Apparently it's only planned and not yet implemented, my bad. When did K-Meleon gain the ability to set more than one proxy server, btw? I don't recall it being able to set more than one when it died in '08/'09-ish.

Also, I was wondering if it wouldn't be preferable to use Privoxy or similar? (NB I didn't check if this particular program allows for per-server proxy settings, but it says it "can be chained with other proxies.") That way you'd have the same proxy settings for all browsers regardless of their own support. Actually I should look into using a program like this again. I much enjoyed Proxomitron back in the days before UserJS came on the scene.

I guess in my daily browsing I primarily value bookmarks (with nicknames and F2/Shift+F2 quick access!) and quick back/forward (e.g. with flip back/forward). I know, that's a very low standard, but it hasn't been met by Opera/Blink yet.

  • krake
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Re: Firefox to become adware?
Reply #32
Apparently it's only planned and not yet implemented, my bad.

It's not only about proxies. You can't toggle yet neither JS nor cookies even through [F12]

When did K-Meleon gain the ability to set more than one proxy server, btw? I don't recall it being able to set more than one when it died in '08/'09-ish.

It already had the ability before it died. You can download the old version and ckeck out.
What you couldn't do before, was to switch between proxies from the GUI without an extention (macro-file).
Now you don't need that extra macro-file anymore.


Also, I was wondering if it wouldn't be preferable to use Privoxy or similar? (NB I didn't check if this particular program allows for per-server proxy settings, but it says it "can be chained with other proxies.") That way you'd have the same proxy settings for all browsers regardless of their own support.

Looks to me like scratching your had with your foot. :)

Actually I should look into using a program like this again. I much enjoyed Proxomitron back in the days before UserJS came on the scene.

I'm still using Proxomitron. Chaining proxies with Proxomitron is easy. Even switching the chained proxies is easy.
What you can't do, is to assign which protocol(s) (HTTP, HTTPS)  the chainged proxy should use. Besides, Proxomitron has no support for SOCKS. You'd need another software to socksify Proxomitron first. I did use this method but hey, this was ages ago and I'm glad I don't have to now. :D  As for Otter as it is for now I couldn't even use a local HTTP-proxy filter (Proxomitron) with it. ;)
As for User.JS, it was for me a bitch in Opera/Presto. You had to turn on scripting globally, so that your damned scripts could work.


I guess in my daily browsing I primarily value bookmarks (with nicknames and F2/Shift+F2 quick access!) and quick back/forward (e.g. with flip back/forward). I know, that's a very low standard, but it hasn't been met by Opera/Blink yet.

You are lucky. You could use almost any browser to fulfil you needs. :P

  • Frenzie
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Re: Firefox to become adware?
Reply #33
It's not only about proxies. You can't toggle yet neither JS nor cookies even through [F12]

I can. This is the private tab issue you were talking about?

Looks to me like scratching your had with your foot.

You say that as if agility were a bad thing. *grins*

I'm still using Proxomitron. Chaining proxies with Proxomitron is easy. Even switching the chained proxies is easy.

So... you're scratching your head with your foot already. :P

As for User.JS, it was for me a bitch in Opera/Presto. You had to turn on scripting globally, so that your damned scripts could work.

I know, very annoying.

You are lucky. You could use almost any browser to fulfil you needs.  :P

My needs are a tiny bit bigger than that, of course, but those are some concerns that make Vivaldi an excellent tertiary-ish browser for checking things out in Blink. Rather my point is that only three browsers actually meet my needs for what I consider more or less usable bookmarks: Opera/Presto, Otter, and Vivaldi.

Also rather important is the ability to quickly switch styles (poorly implemented in Vivaldi atm, coming to Otter in the not too far future) and JS, and of course the windows panel. But really the takeaway is that no matter how much I lower my expectations, Firefox still annoys the @#$@#$ out of me even with extensions (and since version 4 increasingly more so by default) and Vivaldi seems to be the only vaguely usable Chrome-clone out there.

  • krake
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Re: Firefox to become adware?
Reply #34

It's not only about proxies. You can't toggle yet neither JS nor cookies even through [F12]

I can. This is the private tab issue you were talking about?

Not a private tab issue. It's the same without private tab, as mantioned in my earlier post: "No way to toggle JS through [F12]. You can toggle the checkmark but not the pref.   Cookies, Referrer and Proxy are greyed out."
Maybe a Windows only issue.


So... you're scratching your head with your foot already. :P

Not exactly. Neither do I need to change proxies in Proxomitron nor do I have to proxify it anymore.
While Proxomitron comes still handy its importance decreased nowadays because of the many sites using (partially) HTTPS.
Filtering HTTPS with Proxomitron is a PITA. That's the reason why I also misuse Windows' hosts file for blocking offenders.
I could of course enter those offenders into Proxomitron as well (blocking hosts or domains works fine) but I'm too lazy to babysit Proxomitron. So if I use a SOCKS proxy, I simply disable Proxomitron by switching proxies.


Rather my point is that only three browsers actually meet my needs for what I consider more or less usable bookmarks: Opera/Presto, Otter, and Vivaldi.
Also rather important is the ability to quickly switch styles (poorly implemented in Vivaldi atm, coming to Otter in the not too far future) and JS, and of course the windows panel. But really the takeaway is that no matter how much I lower my expectations, Firefox still annoys the @#$@#$ out of me even with extensions (and since version 4 increasingly more so by default) and Vivaldi seems to be the only vaguely usable Chrome-clone out there.

I see.
As for me also, only three browsers come close to my expectations.
1. K-Meleon.
cons:
- There is only one pro programmer behind the project. If he doesn't has enough spare time the project will die as it did before.
- It's a Windows only browser, it needs Wine to run on Linux.
2. Opera/Presto
cons:
- It is discontinued.
3. Firefox
cons:
I don't like the path Firefox is going. My user.js is growing with each new version. ;)
One of my (7) extensions is only for modifying its googlish-dumb GUI.
------
Since Google entered the browser market, the latter really got fu**ed up.
Besides, the path HTML5 is going is dictated by a few big profit oriented corporations...

  • krake
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Re: Firefox to become adware?
Reply #35
I was wrong about toggling JavaScript!
Toggling JS through [F12] is working fine.

I falsly assumed that the toggle is implemented like it is in Opera/Presto and Firefox.
I see now that the toggle for JS works differently in Otter. To make a long story short, just a short test with Opera/Presto vs Otter.
Opera/Presto: Set JS to "false" in "Preferences". "Quick Preferences"[F12] enable JS and close the browser. Restart Opera and you'll see that JS is enabled.
Otter: Set JS to "false" in "Preferences". "Quick Preferences"[F12] enable JS and close the browser. Restart Otter and you'll see that JS is disabled.
---
Unfortunately the freezing of the scrollbar still occurs.

  • Frenzie
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Re: Firefox to become adware?
Reply #36

Opera/Presto: Set JS to "false" in "Preferences". "Quick Preferences"[F12] enable JS and close the browser. Restart Opera and you'll see that JS is enabled.
Otter: Set JS to "false" in "Preferences". "Quick Preferences"[F12] enable JS and close the browser. Restart Otter and you'll see that JS is disabled.

I think that Opera's behavior probably makes more sense. My method of testing JS is actually testing something that uses JS, so I hadn't noticed that particular behavior. :P

Quote
While Proxomitron comes still handy its importance decreased nowadays because of the many sites using (partially) HTTPS.

Ah, I didn't realize that was an issue.

2. Opera/Presto
cons:
- It is discontinued.

Well, sure. My main daily drivers are actually Opera/Presto and Iceweasel 38 with a couple of the obligatory extensions (TabMixPlus, GreaseMonkey, Stylish, something for "rocker gestures"). I use Opera less and less not because it's incompatible with the web per se, but its JS engine's performance can't seem to keep up anymore.

  • krake
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Re: Firefox to become adware?
Reply #37

I think that Opera's behavior probably makes more sense.

It's more intuitive at least. Mainly, because I got used to it.
As for sense, the way Otter does it, has also its own logic. Namely, you have a pref you are using most of the time. However there are occasions where you have to change that pref. That's what the toggle is supposed to be for. Once you restart your browser, your pref will automatically revert to what you use most of the time. Well, at least, that's the way I see it.
Maybe the toggle for cookies is supposed to work the same. I can't test because it's greyed out in my Quick Prefs[F12]. Does it work on Linux?


  • Frenzie
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Re: Firefox to become adware?
Reply #38
Does it work on Linux?

There should be little to no difference between Otter on various platforms. It seems to be grayed out and the Preferences > Privacy option is behaving a little oddly. I disabled it, and can't seem to properly enable it again. It's possible that this is caused by an old profile in my case.

  • Belfrager
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Re: Firefox to become adware?
Reply #39
Opera/Presto: Set JS to "false" in "Preferences". "Quick Preferences"[F12] enable JS and close the browser. Restart Opera and you'll see that JS is enabled.
Otter: Set JS to "false" in "Preferences". "Quick Preferences"[F12] enable JS and close the browser. Restart Otter and you'll see that JS is disabled.
---
Unfortunately the freezing of the scrollbar still occurs.

This man always follows the manuals. Germans always do. Very methodical.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Firefox to become adware?
Reply #40
For some reason on both Linuxmint and Netrunner, Firefox likes to lose the extensions that I put in the toolbar. It's trivial to reset Fx and get them to come back, but very annoying :p