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Topic: Tripe about Ukraine (Read 60956 times)

  • rjhowie
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Tripe about Ukraine
I watched that Obama on television going on about rights and stuff in Ukraine and how peaceful protestors should be allowed freedom to protest. Eh? Peaceful protesters can someone find them.Kind of funny when one remembers how the anti-Wall Street folk were treated. Anyway he along with the EEC are sticking their noses into a situation they should keep well out of. Time after time we have been media brained into a one sided report and interviews. Ukraine had an election and produced a President and there he stays until the next one. He has in fact bent over backwards and too much as it happens for all the good it did him. Doesn't Obama and the EEC leaders have sponges for brains? There are TWO SIDES BUT SOMEHOW THAT IS IGNORED. When the first report came out about deaths there was deliberately no mention that almost half were policemen. Molotov cocktails, firing  bricks and anything that hands can lay on at the officers. One policeman was actually beaten to a death pulp my the mob . And mob is what they are. They yak about Ukraine then attack and burn government buildings so how does that help any future governemnt. Neither can an elected man be expected to give up by terror gangs on the street.

It is none of America's business nor the EEC interfering politicians business to shout on about Ukraine's internal affairs. Now talk about sanctions? Can we remind everyone that one half of the country does not want to be in the EEC. And anyway what financial advantage is there in it? No-one has said that. There are two sides and if the terror gangs on Kiev streets are not careful there will be 2 Ukraines. Fair reporting is well overdue instead of the one-sided lynch mob mentality in DC and Brussels.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #1

I watched that Obama on television going on about rights and stuff in Ukraine ...


When it comes to the Ukraine, watching Obama on TV is futile.
As any other state the USA has its own interests regardless of the president in power, be it Bush, Obama or whoever.
Now as the only superpower left, the USA has more abilities than ever to push those interests by diplomatic maneuver or as a last resort by force.
These aren't breaking news and the world has to deal with it.

So far, the main problem in the Ukraine is not Obama but Yanukowych himself.
Quote
So not only did Yanukovich everything wrong in the past, he still does everything wrong now.  I see him as the number one culprit for the current situation and I am afraid at what else he might completely FUBAR before he is finally kicked out of power.

Dealing with an urban armed insurrection: back to basics



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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #2
What about the people's right for a revolution? I second that right.
Peaceful protests do not always work...
It may not be the case in a particular situation - nevertheless it should be considered.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #3

What about the people's right for a revolution? I second that right.


You probably don't mean cultural revolutions. Do you?  ::)

Please enumerate the states whose constitutions are stating people's right for a revolution.  ???

BTW, how about people's right for a civil war?   :o

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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #4
You're ridiculous, as most people are - to me.
People's rights are not written. Not always - or not often, at least.
You seem to live in an artificial environment, not comprehending the general frame of reference. Which is: people are born not by governments, or laws, or any other established institutions, but by people.
People exist with or without such institutions -- the institutions do not.
Everything institutional is only present in this wider frame of human beings (this latter one is not at all ultimate/terminal).

Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #5

You're ridiculous, as most people are - to me.

Welcome to Josh's little world :)

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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #6
Everybody's world is the world of their perception. It is somehow tricky to try to learn what the other 'worlds' are, let alone that the question of "the true reality" is debatable - at very least...

  • rjhowie
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #7
Judging by the level of violence by the opposition the destruction of government buildings and so on the Ukraine mobs want to remove a democratically elected president?? That simply leaves the door open for those opposed to these gangs to do the same and where are we?  A while back the so-called orange revolution put in someone that the present government supporters didn't want so the bias on Ukraine is prolific. Every time a news item comes on it is a loaded report.

Whatever faults the President has he has given in time after time and what has it produced? The simple answrr is more violence.  The "opposition" seem to think that getting into the EEC will solve their economics but the EEC has not indicated a pennt towards any entry and the situation may be worse. Now the President has left Kiev to go to the east of the country to have a discussion. People there are now talking about defending their towns from the "opposition" if it tries its hand there.  Why the US the EEC think that they have a right to stick their nebs in beats me. Who do they think elected the President and government. At each attempt for a break the fanatical and emotional terror mob in thesuare just go daft and worse. They started the shooting incidents and amongst the opposition are fantical nationalists.

The end game is moving towards a possible civil war and the eventual answer may well be two Ukraines.  Indeed the EEC will not help Ukraine and it is time we got more balanced reports on the media with people from BOTH sides.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #8
Speaking of answrrs and pentts, the standoff is not about economics, but about politics -- in the sense of being not under Russia.
...and the eventual answer may well be two Ukraines.
And there've always been two Ukraines - the west one and the east one. The Russian empire's history had made it for that.
Speaking about the opposition, there's news come just recently that it appeared to be "two oppositions" - the one who made a treaty with Yanuk, and the other - who don't want any treaties but that Yanuk just goes away straight now.

  • rjhowie
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #9
It may well go beyond your idea of the 2 presently inside the one State. The antics of the opposition make that even more likely and there has been far more intereference from the West than further east. Nor does the situation get away from the actual bias that we are being hit by. Indeed the impression is being given that the militants somehow are the only people and that those from areas that support the President are invisible. Wrecking, killing especially policeman who essentially for the most part were not gun using says much about those that are desperate to be in the EEC. For my view the so-called opposition are not very mature too emotional without reason and viloent because they couldn't win the last election. Those not part of the oposition have been virtually ignored as they haven't been destroying things and that the West ignores this is ridiculous.

And in more basic terms all those supposed nationalists who will subjugate their sovereignty for EEC membership they could maybe find out what finance they are liable to get. Nothing has been promised has it? As for Russia apart from the loan (and that is all it is) they have not come out with the hypocrisy of DC or Brussels. Now as I intimated people in east Ukraine and parts of the south are making it obvious they will not tolerate any invasion by the "opposition" and it's diabolical violence.

What the east of the country should do now the President is there is declare separation as they are in a slightly better situation then let the west into the EEC and then it will see that they have been conned by the politicians from elsewhere who simply go to interfering in the Ukraine to get some of the usual not very discrete asides at Russia. Let DC and Brussels face their own financial headaches and keep their noses out.  A new East Ukraine has more to lose than the stupidity of the west part of the nation.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • mjmsprt40
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #10


What about the people's right for a revolution? I second that right.


You probably don't mean cultural revolutions. Do you?  ::)

Please enumerate the states whose constitutions are stating people's right for a revolution.  ???

BTW, how about people's right for a civil war?   :o


Oh, gee, Krake---- OK, it's not in our Constitution. It sure is in the Declaration of Independence though, here in the States. Our Declaration gives us the right to replace our government if the government no longer serves the people. It's stated right there.

About the Ukrainian mess: I confess to not knowing enough to make a good judgement, beyond that it appears the president has left town and the protesters may be running the place.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #11
About the Ukrainian mess: I confess to not knowing enough to make a good judgement, beyond that it appears the president has left town and the protesters may be running the place.

You've joined the crowd. None of us here really knows what's going on down deep but for Krake and Katsung. Insights into the world are what keep me coming back.

I plan to open a thread on the emergence of China as a global power and its impact on Obama's presidency. That way I'll find out what the international media, assorted think tanks and Ivy League scholars can't explain.

I've been hanging around D&D for over 10 years, and now DnD, because I've enjoyed the variety of opinions and observations that members offer, but not because of the expertise that they bring to the table. Where else could I find a Katsung, an rjhowie, a quirky chap from north of Chicago, an ex-ESA engineer? ;)

Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #12
Our Declaration gives us the right to replace our government if the government no longer serves the people. It's stated right there.

It makes the case for America's independence, but isn't law. Besides the civil war, there have been other rebellions (as early as 1787, just four years after America won independence). Those were squashed, making the government's stance on that issue clear. There may be a moral right, but not a legal one.

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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #13
Indeed the impression is being given that the militants somehow are the only people and that those from areas that support the President are invisible.
What meaning are you having in mind by "support"?
Take Russia. Anti-Putin protesters gathered on the streets voluntarily, had numbers. While Putin's crew was claiming their support was greater, they gathered "the supporters" (most of whom appeared to not be such) applying certain leverages...

Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #14
There may be a moral right, but not a legal one.



Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #15

None of us here really knows what's going on down deep but for Krake and Katsung.


Thanks, very kind of you sir. :)

Quote from: Jimbro
I plan to open a thread on the emergence of China as a global power and its impact on Obama's presidency.


You could open a thread about the USA as a global power and its impact on the world. :)
I'm sure you know more about the USA than me or Katsung and at any rate more than about the Ukraine.

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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #16
It might not necessarily be the case. For example, myself am not exactly interested in wassups in Russia, and I get to know something sometimes with a heck of a delay. I know more about world affairs, troubles in the UK, and I also know when the Webb space telescope is scheduled to launch.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #17


Please enumerate the states whose constitutions are stating people's right for a revolution.  ???

BTW, how about people's right for a civil war?   :o


Oh, gee, Krake---- OK, it's not in our Constitution.

I was pretty sure it isn't.

Quote from: mjmsprt40
It sure is in the Declaration of Independence though, here in the States. Our Declaration gives us the right to replace our government if the government no longer serves the people. It's stated right there.


Your  "Declaration of Independence"?
Are you kidding me?  ::)
Have you been at the National Museum of American History lately?  :)
Just asking because that's the right place and only meaning for that paper.  ;)

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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #18
Hey, stop tripling, for a second.
We don't talk about legal bodies, do we. Not everything is under the rule of law -- for example, how to poop, how to wipe, etc.
I mean what? There are things - and there are laws -- not everything in the Universe - or in the human existence - is covered by bureaucratic paragraphs: there was life before legislation - and will be after it; human beings lived on Earth before the First Session Of Parliament - and they have chances to survive long after The Last One...

Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #19
You're ridiculous, as most people are - to me.
People's rights are not written. Not always - or not often, at least.
You seem to live in an artificial environment, not comprehending the general frame of reference. Which is: people are born not by governments, or laws, or any other established institutions, but by people.

On the rest of your post, I'm in agreement. Tell me about universal rights after the next mega-asteroid strike. Tell me about the joy of a loving God.

  • rjhowie
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #20
On interviews from western Ukrainers it is the thing about jobs in the EEC and in the end more immigrants for elsewhere. In the east of the country there is much in the way of industry the excellent black earth and farming matters. The new acting President wants good relations into Europe then with Russia whilst at the same time withdrawing representation in Moscow?  Somehow the morality here in the West is that it is okay for us to interfere in a nation but not someone else. Oh dear how ludicrous. Now places in other parts of the Ukraine have came out with sticks and things in case the wonderful opposition has the temerity to come into their towns and cities.

Going into the EEC the way it is will be a nightmare and what effect will it have where all that commercial side is in east Ukraine? The sad fact is that the idiots in the square are uncontrolable and some of the groups are the same ones who supported the local Nazis  in WW2. As for that female fiormer Prime Minister recently realised the media goes on as if she is Joan of blooming Arc. Yet when she was in power she was intolerant, bitchy and got the country into an economic mess. But the orange revolution was the thing and when it is Western leaning you can expect it to be wonderful of course. No doubt the folk in th east and parts of the south want the country to stay as one but if they are just pushed aside or dealth with  willy-nilly to put up with anything maybe they could have a few thousand people in a town square and force a revolution too. Considering the amount of trade between Ukraine and Russia especially in the East why wasn't Russia more deeper in the picture along with the EEC and America.

With new elections in May following the gradual take over by a motley crew things will not stop there and if it means eventually a break-up then so be it.We can blame the retrogrades in Kiev and the interfering governments of the Western World. Supporting the killers in Kiev is anew morality? Groan.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #21
Yanukovich has been announced "wanted". Charges: murder.
BBC Something

  • rjhowie
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #22
And the warrant is from a crowd of fanatics including a minister from an extreme nationalist bent so what does that tell you JoshL. Theh look at the potential candidates for President. The ex-boxer and that arrogant woman who had a bad reputation as Prime Minister years ago. With the burning of party offices by the wonderful "opposition" we can just see what the elections will be like. Anyway the warrant is a load of baloney and were they going to include the street killers of all those policemen/ No bets on that one.

And if this new regime which is a motley crowd of oddities wins the election what happens if folk in the east/south take up violence will the US and Europe come to their aid? No chance. Seems the people in the east have been out on the streets and makint it plain that the Kiev mobs try anything in their part of the country there will be big trouble. Ukraine's temporary President leads the banning of Russian as second language but wants a good relationship with the russian Federation?? So many Russian speakers in the east should stick together and if need be split as they will be more comfortably off than the banana heads in the west.  Easterners want nothing to do with what has riculously happened in Kiev and the goings on inside the parliament are no better. For anyone of thoughtful mind it is painfully obvious that there are 2 completely different vies inside Ukraine what it should be. If Russia (one country) makes a routine comment it is interfering in sovereignty yet the US and a group of European countries can do what they like? Gorbochov was right in his interview.
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #23
The Ukrainian "scotland" has already separated from the "mainland", so relax: loyalists in Ulster is ok, while similarly feeling guys in the Republic do not look so ok already.

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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #24
BBC 2's said Russia said Yanuk "resurfaced" in Russia.