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Topic: NATO nonsense (Read 7666 times)

  • rjhowie
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NATO nonsense
What a bunch of cold war creation NATO is. It should have been got rid of when the Warsaw Pact lot went. Now troops funnelled into Poland and the Baltic States. When did Russia indicate it wanted to invade the Baltics or Poland? And that clown who is the person in charge of NATO was on television saying how united everyone was. Yet the President of France said publicly that there is no problem with Putin or Russia re France. Greece and Italy said similar - so much for the so-called unity. And the President of the USA came on moaning about how most of the NATO members are NOT spending 2% of their GDP on military.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: NATO nonsense
Reply #200
We might, indeed! The old term "plebiscite" comes to mind -- but, there, its legitimacy is definitional. Devolution or Brexit do perhaps qualify... The Dutch referendum on a trade deal with another country seems an unlikely example. (Isn't it the job of the government to handle such things? Hm. Are the Dutch preparing the way for their own "exit" from the EU?)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: NATO nonsense
Reply #201
This auto-referendum law is stupid, and allegedly the Dutch politicians are too cowardly to admit it, in fear of losing to right- and left-wing populists in the forthcoming election.

As is, it is merely a tool for mischief, which anyone with the resources can come and play with.




  • rjhowie
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Re: NATO nonsense
Reply #202
Damn it they look vaguely familiar.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: NATO nonsense
Reply #203
You probably diddled them, back in the day... :)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • rjhowie
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Re: NATO nonsense
Reply #204
One has already improved his country and personal rating and well maybe the other one may be a surprise??
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ersi
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Re: NATO nonsense
Reply #205
Yay, Estonia in the news.
Estonia says Russia may put troops in Belarus to challenge NATO

Defence Minister Margus Tsahkna said Estonia and other NATO governments had intelligence suggesting Moscow may leave Russian soldiers in Belarus once the so-called Zapad 2017 exercises are over, also pointing to public data of Russian railway traffic to Belarus.

Tsahkna cited plans to send 4,000 railway carriages to Belarus to transport Russian troops and gear there, possibly to set up a military outpost in its closest ally.

"For Russian troops going to Belarus, it is a one-way ticket," Tsahkna told Reuters in an interview in Malta.

  • Belfrager
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Re: NATO nonsense
Reply #206
Sorry my ignorance, are Estonia, Latvia and the other Baltic state I don't remember part of NATO?
A matter of attitude.

  • krake
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Re: NATO nonsense
Reply #207
How could you miss the Lithuanian Empire? Shame on you.
Of course, all of them are important members of the NATO. They are the spearhead of the alliance, so to speak.
BTW, you probably know which the most exposed part of a lance is.

  • rjhowie
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Re: NATO nonsense
Reply #208
There really is an awful lot of damn nonsense going on from the Baltic states and especially Estonia that they may be invaded??  utter nonsense but the West via this NAT lot are rubbing hands on glee at a chance to put pressure on Russia. On a lesser note must make the Kremlin shake it's head and smile at the nonsense. It is just another damn nonsense for NATO to over justify it's continued existence.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: NATO nonsense
Reply #209
Mr. Trump, stop tweeting! (Oh? It was Howie? Never mind.) :) )
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • Belfrager
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Re: NATO nonsense
Reply #210
How could you miss the Lithuanian Empire? Shame on you.
Of course, all of them are important members of the NATO. They are the spearhead of the alliance, so to speak.
BTW, you probably know which the most exposed part of a lance is.
My excuses for the brave Lithuans, I hope they understand my lack of memory, imperialist Estonians have occupied their space at this world representative forum... :)

As for you Krake, I'm tired of excuses from the Finnish so I have to accept also the Baltic states to pretend that they are the "victims". If not satisfied they can always return to Comrade Putin. Like the Finnish always did with the Soviets. Double game for the Finnish, always.
A matter of attitude.

  • Belfrager
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Re: NATO nonsense
Reply #211
Returning to NATO.
I defend that European countries have no other option but to defend themselves together.

It will cost sovereignty and proudness, but an European Army will be the only way to protect us from Americans, Russians and Chinese. Those are our enemies, better to fight them whem they are still divided.

Europeans have all the best scientifical, military, economical and "need to do it" factors to assure a long lastull domination of the world. At this time, we need an Army for just ourselves.

After winning we can return to fight between us. Not before.
Simple as that.
A matter of attitude.

  • Belfrager
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Re: NATO nonsense
Reply #212
Trump complains that 23 out 28 Nato members don't spend 2% of GDP for the supposed "mutual defense organization".
He adds that's not fair for the American tax payers.

It seems that one of those members that pays it's Estonia. Also Greece.
This is a world of lunatics. Meanwhile, American tax payers can thanks to Estonia and Greece.
And some other three I don't remember.
A matter of attitude.

  • rjhowie
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Re: NATO nonsense
Reply #213
It is a lot worse for American taxpayers due to their morphed imperialistic nonsense. America spends what is it - just over half the total world expenditure on military?  How ridiculous is that?

And trump was against NATO now like other issues he is doing something different from his vocal rampages in the election campaign. Anyway, NATO was created to be a bulwark against the USSR and the eastern block in red controlled Europe. When the Soviet Union collapsed along with the red eastern Europe block that should have been the end of NATO.Instead it is just another tool by America to have everyone as a vassal State under it and so on. If all that stuff wasn't bad enough they built a big new NATO HQ at a billion dollars. Utterly head shaking and I have no time for the organisation whatsoever.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • krake
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Re: NATO nonsense
Reply #214
Trump complains that 23 out 28 Nato members don't spend 2% of GDP for the supposed "mutual defense organization".
He adds that's not fair for the American tax payers.
As a consequence NATO should move its ass out of countries reluctant to spend 2% of their GDP.
It would make tax payers happy - both, Europeans and Americans. Simply as that.

  • rjhowie
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Re: NATO nonsense
Reply #215
It's of the past and when the Warsaw Pact went which was the opposition the damn thing should have been dumped.  :irked:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Frenzie
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  • Administrator
Re: NATO nonsense
Reply #216
What matters is the actual security and defense capabilities as outlined at http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_49202.htm Assuming that the US is paying more therefore getting more is stupid, cf. health care and infrastructure. Obama/Trump is therefore wrong by definition even if they might in some circumstances be right in the sense that a country may not be meeting a particular goal such as always having a brigade ready to go. Buy a few extra expensive airplanes (hello JSF) and up goes the budget without increasing actual capabilities in any meaningful way.

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: NATO nonsense
Reply #217
By that measure the world should be a NATO member, spending 2.3% of the GDP on the military, down from 3.4% in 1988.



Source: SIPRI/World Bank Military expenditure (% of GDP)

So, for that matter, should Ukraine (expenditure 4.0%).


To make an excerpt from the list, %GDP expenditures in 2015 (1988)

Saudi Arabia 13.5 (15.2)
Israel 5.4 (17.1)
Russia: 4.9
Ukraine: 4.0
USA: 3.3 (5.6)
Greece: 2.6 (3.6)
India: 2.4 (3.6)
Poland: 2.2
Turkey: 2.1 (2.9)
France: 2.1 (3.5)
Estonia: 2.0
China: 1.9
UK: 1.9 (3.8 )
Portugal: 1.9 (2.4)
Norway: 1.5 (2.8 )
Netherland: 1.2 (2.6)
Germany: 1.2 (2.5)
Canada: 1.0 (2.0)
Japan: 0.9 (0.9)
Hungary: 0.8
Luxembourg: 0.5 (0.9)
Iceland: 0.1

Back when the Soviet Union ruled the roost, getting 2% wasn't an issue. Though the peace dividend may have been followed by a Putin penalty (the numbers are from 2015, generally up in the NATO area since), it's not quite the same opponent.


The NATO target is that, a target. So is the 1.0% of GDP development aid target, which in 2015 was fulfilled by just three countries: Sweden 1.40%, UAE 1.09%, Norway 1.05%.


Rationally the two targets should be switched outside conflict zones (2% of GDP on development, 1% on defence), far more rational would be targets for results, not for expenditure.

  • rjhowie
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Re: NATO nonsense
Reply #218
It is the actual hard cost of military and as I have previously pointed out the US spends half the world's armament total. But they have to keep the military corporates industry up there. NATO should have been scrapped instead of the members just being toadies to the corporates mindset.

Now they conjure up all sorts of rubbish about Russia invading eastern Europe and such. What an insult to intelligence because it is a load of damn rubbish but the imperial military mindset is working.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Belfrager
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Re: NATO nonsense
Reply #219
The Atlantic it's an European sea, so the EUA should be expulsed from Nato. They can always create the Pato, Pacific Treaty Organization.
Pacific suits America well.
A matter of attitude.

  • rjhowie
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Re: NATO nonsense
Reply #220
A European Sea?? The North Sea might be but not that one!
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Belfrager
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Re: NATO nonsense
Reply #221
Pacific suits America well.
Well well... they sunk navies, they face the Dear Lider and don't know what to do... China laughs about them... roses everywhere.

While American strategy is this complete stupidity I really don't know what to expect.
A matter of attitude.

  • rjhowie
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Re: NATO nonsense
Reply #222
Well NATO is only a damn excuse for America to continue the modern imperialism of the place.

It was started as a defence against Communism in Europe and of course the old USSR. That side of things are all gone but instead of scrapping the damn waste of money all it does is find alternative excuses to exist. The Baltic states corner is typical of the nonsense and politicians insulting intelligence by bleating that Russia wants to invade them. NATO also spreads it's wings as part of the excuse I state. When the old situation completely changed in Europe  the excuse for NATO was no longer needed but those that gripe about old imperialism long vanished are supporting it in hard ways today with that organisation.
"Quit you like men:be strong"