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Topic: Another imperialism act in the Middle East (Read 860 times)

  • rjhowie
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Another imperialism act in the Middle East
That the US President fits in well with the tradition of being inherently superior in dropping nearly 60 bombs on a Syrian airbase continues the tradition.

The UN has stated that there is no definite proof as to what actually happened. I did see one report that showed Syrian soldiers entering the place where it is said the chemicals were stored by the IS lot. President Trump as is the tradition makes a big play about the innocents killed by the "bombing by chemicals." Makes bit play of the would-be high moral standing but only a week or so ago the US had to slovenly admit the bombing of civilians and a leading Los Angeles newspaper has said about 200.. Is there a big play on that? Nope so maybe the Russians should act the same way and bomb the 2 US ships that sent to the rockets??

American led West because it can get blocked in the UN Security Council goes and bombs with NO damn proof and should have waited to see if the opposite view that the planes did not droop the chemicals but exploded what was stored in the building. Kind of hypocritical of the US which killed legions in Vietnam years ago with their Orange gas and kids still being killed by it today.  The UN Council is the same place where the US vetoes anything on their Israeli Zionist pals. The added guff that the airport the US bombed is where the supposed stuff came from is a head shaking thing. If that was the case why no gas effecting people on the base, eh?

The propaganda is again something Dr Goebells would smile and clap hands on. No waiting for a proper check just do what the US always does and be so full of itself wanting to control the world that anything goes.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: Another imperialism act in the Middle East
Reply #1
As always, RJ, your ignorance precludes anyone from taking you seriously. But -of course- your animosity towards Jews returns, as your immediate fixation.
The UN has stated that there is no definite proof as to what actually happened.
The only war the UN authorized is the Korean War, which still remains unresolved... It's been a while! Almost 65 years... What good does the UN do?
Well, it provides a great deal of money to its functionaries...

But you seem to be okay with corruption, if there's any way to spin it against the U.S. or Israel.

When -I ask you- did the UN ever proclaim "definitive proof" of anything?

If they proclaimed a sunrise, I'd be tempted to doubt it.
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: Another imperialism act in the Middle East
Reply #2
Quote
The perils of reckless intervention are well known, but less thoroughly studied are the dangers of non-intervention. In Syria, the norm prohibiting the battlefield use of WMD has died along with nearly half a million civilians. Millions are displaced. The risk of great-power conflict looms over its decimated cities, and American credibility is on the line. The U.S. has made many sacrifices in Syria, even if America's soldiers were based thousands of miles away. There are no painless options in Syria any more, but America's non-intervention is untenable. When we act, we will do so at a time and place not of our choosing and amid suboptimal circumstances. It's a costly lesson to learn, but one Americans seem doomed to regularly repeat. [...]
(source)
Indeed, the circumstances are "sub-optimal"
- that's the nature of war.
Some provincial and "girly-guys" prefer to hunker down in their burrows.
Not everyone can do so...
  • Last Edit: 2017-04-08, 20:57:34 by OakdaleFTL
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: Another imperialism act in the Middle East
Reply #3
The reaction is predictable, to retweet:

Quote
The Left today are genuinely more outraged by attack on air base that killed no civilians than they are Trump bombing a mosque with kids in.
(and of course in this case "The Left" is interchangeable with "The Right")

Of all events that have taken place in Syria, this is the one to be upset about?

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: Another imperialism act in the Middle East
Reply #4
Does nobody remember Obama's "Red Line"?
Our military and Russia's and Syria's know where the chemical attack came from: Shayrat airfield. It won't be used for more such attacks...

A bombed airfield will be out of commission for days, weeks, months, but not forever. That's a reason cluster bombing is popular against airfields. Not only do they make many nice little craters, the undetonated ordinance is a danger to cleanup crew and civilians alike.

There is no indication that any critical component of Assad's war machinery has been crippled (then again, if they could do that, those Tomahawks would have flown long ago). This is an empty gesture, a symbolic act (except to those in harm's way, for those the act would have been very real). It has two purposes:

  • Second to a strongly worded communiqué, this is as close to doing nothing without actually doing nothing towards a country on war footing as you can get (in a military/strategic sense). 
  • It marks that president Trump is in the game, with no commitments what is going to be done next. 

It is, in short, a call. The (2) is more important than (1), and the one to pay attention to. 

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: Another imperialism act in the Middle East
Reply #5
Don't we all know what happened to Saddam's WMDs? :) He very convincingly concocted most of them, to keep his generals and his neighbors in line. He managed to convince the intelligence services of France, Great Britain and the U.S., didn't he?

They were hardly convinced, rather the opposite, but kept contingencies open. That is a problem in the process, with no sign of being solved, perhaps with no desire to being solved. "Saddam Hussein has WMD" was not an unreasonable hypothesis. After all, he had had them, and had used them in Halabja, and while his capacity for waging war had been severely degraded over the years, he might still keep, or possibly extend, his mass destruction capability.  

But these hypotheses were not tested against the null hypothesis, or any alternative hypothesis. Instead we got the dossier, a study in cherry-picking. The people who actually did real testing, Hans Blix and the weapons inspectors from your maligned UN, were ignored, and when they came to an inconvenient conclusion, they were actively smeared by US and UK politicians.

  • krake
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Re: Another imperialism act in the Middle East
Reply #6
BTW: Andy McCarthy, writing at the National Review, agrees with you - mostly.
Partially but definitively not mostly.
WTF, is that article trying to pave another US aggression in breach with international law? Iran to get bombed next?

Are there to be no consequences for the use of chemical weapons?
There should be consequences as soon as sound proofs are on the table. Don't mix up fishy speculations or lies with sound proofs.

Don't we all know what happened to Saddam's WMDs? :)
For sure we know.
Lies as pretext for a military aggression in breach with international law.

He managed to convince the intelligence services of France, Great Britain and the U.S., didn't he?
Bullshit! He didn't manage anything. The whole world knew that it's a farce.
Parroting US lies. That's what vasalls are good for. At least the French had the decency not to be part of an aggression based on lies.

  • krake
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Re: Another imperialism act in the Middle East
Reply #7
"Saddam Hussein has WMD" was not an unreasonable hypothesis.
A hypothesis is not a proof, let alone a reason to invade a sovereign state and to turn an entire region into hell.

After all, he had had them, ...
And guess where did he get the germs from...

  • krake
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Re: Another imperialism act in the Middle East
Reply #8
Quote
The perils of reckless intervention are well known, but less thoroughly studied are the dangers of non-intervention. In Syria, the norm prohibiting the battlefield use of WMD has died along with nearly half a million civilians. Millions are displaced. The risk of great-power conflict looms over its decimated cities, and American credibility is on the line. The U.S. has made many sacrifices in Syria, even if America's soldiers were based thousands of miles away. There are no painless options in Syria any more, but America's non-intervention is untenable. When we act, we will do so at a time and place not of our choosing and amid suboptimal circumstances. It's a costly lesson to learn, but one Americans seem doomed to regularly repeat. [...]
First, it wouldn't hurt to give also the source you are quoting from.
- The dangers of non intervention
Healing the world with bombs and shaping it according to US interests.
Imagine the USA wouldn't have invaded Iraq, no bombs over Libya, not staging up and heading the civil war in Syria.
No hundreds of thousands (that number is an understatement) of victims and no millions displaced. Imagine if you can.

That article is a blow in the face of every human being with a minimum of dignity and brain.

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: Another imperialism act in the Middle East
Reply #9
"Saddam Hussein has WMD" was not an unreasonable hypothesis.
A hypothesis is not a proof, let alone a reason to invade a sovereign state and to turn an entire region into hell

Proof is only required in mathematics. Outside that field we're left with hypotheses and partial information. Our duty is to test and strengthen those hypotheses, gather outside information, give our best effort and follow best practices. Afterwards, when we have as much knowledge as we ever will, we evaluate with our perfect hindsight. The latter has shown in practice to be an as error-prone process as the initial hypotheses, but we can give it our revised best effort.

The process that led to the invasion of Iraq was faulty, in part by intention, but there wouldn't have been much reflection on that if it hadn't also been a failure.

Turning the "entire region into hell" was a collaborative process, it didn't have to end up that way.

Intervention, from the most benign to the most brutal, is risky. There are many more ways to fail than to succeed, and if an interventionist fails, he will have to own it. Even if he succeeds he will have to own it. On the other hand there are cases where the intervention is worth the risk, an ounce of prevention can stop an avalanche of horror, but it is only obvious when that prevention fails.

  • ersi
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Re: Another imperialism act in the Middle East
Reply #10
Intervention, from the most benign to the most brutal, is risky. There are many more ways to fail than to succeed, and if an interventionist fails, he will have to own it. Even if he succeeds he will have to own it. On the other hand there are cases where the intervention is worth the risk, an ounce of prevention can stop an avalanche of horror, but it is only obvious when that prevention fails.
However, in case of Iraq, the West was not doing prevention of anything. The UN investigators had already been there and confirmed in every possible way that there were no WMDs. By launching the attack in this situation, the West was unleashing an avalanche of horror, knowingly. In this sense the intervention was a ravishing success.

  • Belfrager
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Re: Another imperialism act in the Middle East
Reply #11
It marks that president Trump is in the game, with no commitments what is going to be done next.
Assad and Putin have been playing the tango for a long time, no room for a third dancer.

I agree that, basically, Trump made the only thing he could do closest to doing nothing. The usual, a lot of noise with absolutely no effects. Even worst, the joke will cost a high price to the US in what regards to Russia.

No surprise about the EU position and a typical Chinese reaction.
A matter of attitude.

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: Another imperialism act in the Middle East
Reply #12
However, in case of Iraq, the West was not doing prevention of anything. The UN investigators had already been there and confirmed in every possible way that there were no WMDs.

Sure. At that point the US administration was looking for a casus belli, and was inconvenienced where there was none. There was intent before that within, an intent enabled by the attack in 2001 into becoming a plan. That's pretty obvious based on that the attack had links from arguably Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Sudan, but the US attacked Iraq. George W. Bush seems to have been fairly late into signing in on it.

By launching the attack in this situation, the West was unleashing an avalanche of horror, knowingly. In this sense the intervention was a ravishing success.

That was never the intent. Hubris and incompetence, sure. A willingness to suck US resources too. I can't think of a case where the US spent so much and got so little. A lack of a Plan B and glaring deficiencies in Plan A would be to blame. The resulting situation was not to the US advantage, and though many US actors made good mint out of it, these would have made more if they had a great success. For one thing they wouldn't stop with Iraq.

A strong motivation for Iran to work for a spectacular failure, and not only Iran. Practically every outside actor had a stake in the US failing, very few in it succeeding. Europe did to some extent, as sooner or later it would become their mess, but for the rest it was either a small investment with great violent returns, or just to wait for the situation to deteriorate and bog down the US might.

  • ersi
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Re: Another imperialism act in the Middle East
Reply #13
Syrian jets take off from Shayrat airbase hours after it was pummeled by US bombs, reports suggest

The US Navy fired 59 cruise missiles at the base, killing at least seven people and causing what was described as extensive damage.

But within hours it was back in use according to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights.

  • rjhowie
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Re: Another imperialism act in the Middle East
Reply #14
You can slag me off as much as you like Oakdale but in practical terms you give America a bad name but unfortunately there ARE millions like you over there that thinks America is some divinely right nation that can do what it damn well wants in the world while millions of your own citizens have little democracy, homes or are poverty struck.

I have no time for Israel and entitled to my opinion (not ime for North Korea either dear child mind). Although i have to accept it's existence the present government there IS Zionist and I have little time for such a corner. The US virtually worships that lot and they finance and keep Israel afloat because of the financial power of Jews in America, etc. Anyway I am not going to be deflected by your redcued grey cells on the Syria question.  he West led by the US condemns and v=berates Syria's regime but sooks in with a country like Saudi Arabia/ Why/ Big money making selling weapons to that lot of religious nutters.  Two police forces. Ordinary and religious. The way women are  treated and the violent regime is okay due to big business so where is the morality sonny. At least in Syria Christians had rights but not in Saudi. So grow up.

There is no damn proof yet of the accusation that the Syrian airforce dropped the chemical stuff at all. Yes the building had bombs dropped on it and it is likely that broke up the dangerous stuff the terrorists had stored there.  Instead you totally ignore that potential possibility. You also ignored the hard fact that when you lot attacked the air force base destroying planes and building there was no gas released to effect anyone. That garbage that the base was where the chemicals came from is mythology.  In Syria you lot waxed liberally on Russian/Syrian planes would probably kill civilians but somehow your bombing doesn't/ What about the recent killings by US planes, eh? You support any dictatorship that knuckle heads to your interference or financial control etc and act so stupid when found out to be hypocritical. For decades supported and financed military dictatorships across South America, killed legions on Vietnam with Agent Orange fund your Zionist pals in the ME and do a body swerve to the obvious that I indicated.

Instead try and fall back on slagging but do a dance on the issues.  But then you come from somewhere that is a superficial democracy full of mental kid minds when it comes to the obvious. I am glad that Russia has a warship at the Syrian coast and hope that is just a start because America is not a principled place. I do certainly hope that the UN does find out the truth and Russia draws a line because you lot think you have some God given right to control the world.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: Another imperialism act in the Middle East
Reply #15
First, it wouldn't hurt to give also the source you are quoting from.
No, it wouldn't have hurt -- but I got distracted; I've added the link. (I note, you had no trouble finding it... :) )
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I am glad that Russia has a warship at the Syrian coast and hope that is just a start because America is not a principled place.
Don't concern yourself, RJ: Russia guaranteed that Assad's chemical weapons were destroyed... You remember that, right? :)
Please note well: The Russian-supplied antimissile defenses weren't used. Can you explain why?
(Myself, I don't know. But I expect, sooner or later, we'll find out.)

The Russian frigate is likely not the harbinger you think it is. But the Guardian has more...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just thought I'd add a little about the effectiveness of the strike...
  • Last Edit: 2017-04-08, 21:48:33 by OakdaleFTL
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • rjhowie
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Re: Another imperialism act in the Middle East
Reply #16
Nice try boy with the "Russian supplied" defensive missiles Syria has. Can I remind you that your arrogant lot fired 59 missles and only 33 did anything. Try using military men instead of Boy Scouts. There needs to be a definitive investigation by the UN on the nonsense that Syria despatched the poison stuff instead of what is more likely to be a terrorist centre that got hit. A bit nearer the factual and Syria is getting to the top in the warfare so why would they want to single out one place for such a thing?? You choose to ignore your own country's history in using such horrible stuff years ago. No apology and people still dying decades later so a much more lethal thing. More died also by US bombing in that recent incident I mentioned but that doesn't count. No answer. The Vietnamese mass orange infections another no answer, Indiscriminate bombing in Serbia = no answer. The lies about Sadaam (proved) but no answer and all standard.Who does your country think it damn well is? It sooks in with Israel on just about anything and blocks anything negative about that rogue country at the UN Council. You are good at dancing but not at the factual.

Internally on democracy, fairness, freedoms mass poverty all negative but don't count and instead march around the world trying to boss it. Spending half the total global expenditure on military while mass numbers of Americans at home are poor, homeless, get phones, electronics spied on and 16 spy agencies?? Whoever created the expression two-faced could have suggested the statement be stuck on that flag you have everywhere in your super nationalism.

"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: Another imperialism act in the Middle East
Reply #17
Can I remind you that your arrogant lot fired 59 missles and only 33 did anything.
Certainly you can: What telly program is your source? :)

(The rest of your blather goes without comment, beyond remarking that it's your usual rabid anti-Americanism... Oh, the Joos!)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • krake
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Re: Another imperialism act in the Middle East
Reply #18
Quote
according to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights.
I'd take stories from that London based one-man organisation advertised as "Syrian Observatory for Human Rights", with a large pinch of salt.
The Dirty War on Syria

In this case, the news about the Shayrat airbase being active again is correct and was confirmed by several sources.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: Another imperialism act in the Middle East
Reply #19
But, of course, Tim Anderson is an unimpeachable source... :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • krake
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  • rjhowie
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Re: Another imperialism act in the Middle East
Reply #21
You insult your own intelligence Oakdale by falling back on that nonsense you piffle on. Using an anti-American stance to body-swerve all I have said on the US killing multitudes with that orange stuff in Vietnam the other week killing nearly 200 civilians (more than in the latest stuff). Denying that 59 rockets were sent to that Syrian air base. That those that died at it were not killed due to chemicals being released as in the major incident. Have watched the base where a whole raft of your missiles did nothing and the places is functional right now and seen to be. The long practiced US stuff about keeping in with Israel is also factual.

Instead you ignore the obvious and even the matter of this latest incident guffed on by US led nonsense is yet to be proved.  Trump is no different from these before him he yakked about. Easy just to come out with rubbish instead of answering my charges. It is okay for America to practice hypocrisy because the brains are so indoctrinated to the point of farcical. It is fine for that country to bomb, gas and create wars since 1945 and accuse others of the same history it practices. Even when the "bombing" deliberately by Syria is NOT proved the US as usual in it's paranoia of it's own importance does what it likes and the West goes with it like puppets. And as usual (yawn) the US has included in it's routine keech about having to do what it did for it's security - eh?  Slag me off as much as you want but you only make it obvious to people who do not have their grey cells controlled you cannot face the truth or the answers.  :headbang:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: Another imperialism act in the Middle East
Reply #22
You sure do prattle on, boy! :)

(Seriously, krake, AlterNet??)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: Another imperialism act in the Middle East
Reply #23
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: Another imperialism act in the Middle East
Reply #24
RJ, you'll appreciate this (well, you would and could, if you'd learned to read!)-- it uses the word "imperialism," which you obviously don't know the meaning of...
Bee strong, Orangeman! Hate with all your heart, and know nothing beyond what your telly tells you and your prejudices tilt you towards! :)
(I'd take you a little more seriously, if you'd learn to speak and write English... :) )
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman