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Topic: "Proportional" reprentation (Read 795 times)

  • OakdaleFTL
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"Proportional" reprentation
Recently -in the Good News thread- a conversation ensued. (It happens, sometimes... :) )
Shall we here discuss the issues involved?

The idea of proportional representation requires, at least, a metaphor that is problematical: Is the mixture of urine and water best described as "urine diluted with water" or "water adulterated with urine"? :)
Psychologists have "examined" the disgust factor... (It's fascinating reading!) But no hard-and-fast conclusions have emerged.

Of course, this metaphor requires the belief that there are better and worse political philosophies... And better and worse government, based upon something... If you don't believe that, you might as well stop reading now; and refrain from commenting: Your tribe will either win or lose, and that's all you care about anyway!

It's that "something" mentioned above that I'd like to talk about.

Any takers? :)
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The election of smaller parties gives rise to the principal objection to PR systems, that they almost always result in coalition governments.

Supporters of PR see coalitions as an advantage, forcing compromise between parties to form a coalition at the centre of the political spectrum, and so leading to continuity and stability. Opponents counter that with many policies compromise is not possible (for example funding a new stealth bomber, or leaving the EU). Neither can many policies be easily positioned on the left-right spectrum (for example, the environment). So policies are horse-traded during coalition formation, with the consequence that voters have no way of knowing which policies will be pursued by the government they elect; voters have less influence on governments. Also, coalitions do not necessarily form at the centre, and small parties can have excessive influence, supplying a coalition with a majority only on condition that a policy or policies favoured by few voters is adopted. Most importantly, the ability of voters to vote a party in disfavour out of power is curtailed.

All these disadvantages, the PR opponents contend, are avoided by two-party plurality systems. Coalitions are rare; the two dominant parties necessarily compete at the centre for votes, so that governments are more reliably moderate; the strong opposition necessary for proper scrutiny of government is assured; and governments remain sensitive to public sentiment because they can be, and are, regularly voted out of power. However, the US experience shows that this is not necessarily so, and that a two-party system can result in a "drift to extremes", hollowing out the centre, or, at least, in one party drifting to an extreme.

Nevertheless, on average, compared to countries using plurality systems, governments elected with PR accord more closely with the median voter and the citizens are more content with democracy.
(source)
  • Last Edit: 2017-04-13, 04:40:52 by OakdaleFTL
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • Belfrager
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Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #25
While Northern ignorants discuss their pseudo-language, the facts remains the same - The Europe of Citizens is so much ahead of the Europe of political parties.

The rest of the world is an anecdote. A dangerous anecdote.
A matter of attitude.

  • rjhowie
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Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #26
I wonder if that is really a positive the basic way Europe is - a basic shambles. Was not meant to be kind of State and anyweay looking at the basic composition makes your assessment even doubtful.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #27
Shouldn't Europe have a proportion of Communists, Fascists, Crypto-capitalists, and (add any other -ists you'd like!) rule over them?
(They actually have: It's called the EU...)

If there are no principles worth fighting for, there is only what Frenzie call the "circular argument." The other side -the one I'm against- says exactly that: There are no principles!

When you focus upon "the process." chances are pretty good that you know -- you've already lost the argument. But you may continue winning battles...
Hell, you might win the war!

How does that work out in the real world? Unfortunately, as Keynes quipped: "In the long run, we are all dead."

How many people with children feel that way? It's hard to say, considering the many who'd turn their children into bombs, and thence hamburger...

You choose your principles; and you -at great peril- ignore the plain principles of others.
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Again, I ask: What is the purpose of government... What do we want?

I doubt the answers to those two questions will be very enlightening. Most of the modern world (that would be Europe, BTW? :) ) has rejected such..., principles, that is. And, so, should be perfectly okay with the Trump presidency: He's their "kinda guy"! (The Art of the Deal, and all that silliness... Didn't it used to be called "Real Politik"?)

In a sense, I see what people who want proportional representation want: A calm, peaceful world; where no one is treated un-fairly.
I'm not opposed to that.
I just see (know...) that that's not how the world works.

And I would like someone to explain to me how "tribal," or racial or ethnic -or even ideological groups - make, when they're given priority- the polity better and the government they support -- something other than a "spoils system"...



(And, so, we're back to Frenzie's "circularity". I wish I had the answer... But I can only claim certain principles that I deem paramount. See America's Declaration of Independence and said country's Constitution.)

And, ersi, look up the various dictionary meanings of the word "principle"... Then go out to a bar, get drunk; get into an argument... It'd probably do you good, even if you lost the fight. You've a lot to learn yet.
  • Last Edit: 2017-04-15, 05:54:03 by OakdaleFTL
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • ersi
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Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #28
If there are no principles worth fighting for, there is only what Frenzie call the "circular argument.
The other side -the one I'm against- says exactly that: There are no principle!
Fair representation is not a principle worth living and fighting for?

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #29
Ah! For you, the process is the principle... :)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • rjhowie
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Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #30
You are maybe right ersi so emigrate!
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #31
RJ, would you explain what you mean by a "wider democracy"...?
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • rjhowie
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Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #32
I do understand that living in America and being brained from childhood Oakdale the idea of 'wider democracy' is a puzzle because you think you have it. You lot are brained from childhood by words such as "democracy" and so on but in practice only limited. There are an awful lot of places with that wider democracy than your two-faced place. Yak about principles but inside the country is a different tale!  :hat:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #33
Oh, we manage, RJ...  :) You're welcome to your parliamentary system; we'll keep our constitutional republic a bit longer, thank you!
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • rjhowie
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Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #34
Why keep it Oaky when tens of millions are getting nowhere in it?  :down:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #35
Where are they trying to go?
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • rjhowie
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Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #36
Being so many poor Yanks they cannot afford to go anywhere.  ???
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #37
They could go to Glasgow, and on the same income live like kings! :) (Well, lairds -- at least.)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • rjhowie
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Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #38
People enjoy coming here being such a friendly place. :happy:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Belfrager
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Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #39
We aren't such a friendly place. We should be but we aren't.
Mea culpa, vostra culpa.
Who cares in this consumist egoist society.

There's no way to have "representation" when humans lives like insects. First, let's live like human beings at human societies, by humanistic values, by the absolut value of the dignity of the human being, then there wil be no problem about "representations".
A matter of attitude.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: "Proportional" representation
Reply #40
I forget, Belfrager, did I post this link before? :)

I still think various societies choose or accept various schemes of government, as they suit them. It's the them part that too many people refuse to acknowledge...
For example, I'd not presume to tell the citizenry of Portugal how to structure their government...
(What we do here is different: We choose to discuss and criticize each other's views -- mostly in a friendly manner. When governments do that, it's called "diplomacy," which often leads to war! :) Here, we -at most- stop talking to each other.)
There's no reason I can think of that requires a single best system. But I do still believe that the U.S. constitutional republic is best suited to most Americans... :)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • Belfrager
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Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #41
I forget, Belfrager, did I post this link before?  :)
A fable indeed... so Republicans sees themselves as... butterflies??? despising the Democrat bees?
I would see them all more as consumerist cockroaches. Never imagined Republicans with such poetic soul... buterflies shooting around, what a cartoon.
A matter of attitude.

  • rjhowie
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Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #42
Sorry to be a disappointment Belfrager but my younger brother has visited the Algarve in your place and seemed to enjoy it!
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Belfrager
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Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #43
Next time he will be arrested.
No more considered an European and as such treated as an Islamic terrorist. :)
Say bye-bye to your brother if he ever visits us again brexit annoying orange man.
A matter of attitude.

  • krake
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Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #44
Portugal books tourism record
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Brits again topped the list of foreign visitors to the country, followed by Germans
Be nice to Anglo-Saxons. :)

  • rjhowie
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Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #45
Not just Anglo-Saxons but Scots, Ulster folk and Welsh lot too!

Just thought Belfrager dear Popish man that we are now into the marching season so will think about you.  Would let you try my regalia on but worried you might have a heart attack.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #46
we are now into the marching season
Boy-o! Has no one told you you live on an island? What are ye? Lemmings?
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • Belfrager
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Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #47
Portugal books tourism record
Quote
Brits again topped the list of foreign visitors to the country, followed by Germans
Be nice to Anglo-Saxons. :)
The plague has arrived...
Use masks and avoid any contact with those foreigner hordes of infectious microbes....
Burn them all, it's a matter of public health.

A matter of attitude.

  • krake
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Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #48
Burn them all, it's a matter of public health.
Don't forget to make sure you emptied their pockets before burning them at the stake. :)

  • Barulheira
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Burning pockets
Reply #49
Burning pockets smell bad.