Skip to main content

Topic: "Proportional" reprentation (Read 1579 times)

  • OakdaleFTL
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
"Proportional" reprentation
Recently -in the Good News thread- a conversation ensued. (It happens, sometimes... :) )
Shall we here discuss the issues involved?

The idea of proportional representation requires, at least, a metaphor that is problematical: Is the mixture of urine and water best described as "urine diluted with water" or "water adulterated with urine"? :)
Psychologists have "examined" the disgust factor... (It's fascinating reading!) But no hard-and-fast conclusions have emerged.

Of course, this metaphor requires the belief that there are better and worse political philosophies... And better and worse government, based upon something... If you don't believe that, you might as well stop reading now; and refrain from commenting: Your tribe will either win or lose, and that's all you care about anyway!

It's that "something" mentioned above that I'd like to talk about.

Any takers? :)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
The election of smaller parties gives rise to the principal objection to PR systems, that they almost always result in coalition governments.

Supporters of PR see coalitions as an advantage, forcing compromise between parties to form a coalition at the centre of the political spectrum, and so leading to continuity and stability. Opponents counter that with many policies compromise is not possible (for example funding a new stealth bomber, or leaving the EU). Neither can many policies be easily positioned on the left-right spectrum (for example, the environment). So policies are horse-traded during coalition formation, with the consequence that voters have no way of knowing which policies will be pursued by the government they elect; voters have less influence on governments. Also, coalitions do not necessarily form at the centre, and small parties can have excessive influence, supplying a coalition with a majority only on condition that a policy or policies favoured by few voters is adopted. Most importantly, the ability of voters to vote a party in disfavour out of power is curtailed.

All these disadvantages, the PR opponents contend, are avoided by two-party plurality systems. Coalitions are rare; the two dominant parties necessarily compete at the centre for votes, so that governments are more reliably moderate; the strong opposition necessary for proper scrutiny of government is assured; and governments remain sensitive to public sentiment because they can be, and are, regularly voted out of power. However, the US experience shows that this is not necessarily so, and that a two-party system can result in a "drift to extremes", hollowing out the centre, or, at least, in one party drifting to an extreme.

Nevertheless, on average, compared to countries using plurality systems, governments elected with PR accord more closely with the median voter and the citizens are more content with democracy.
(source)
  • Last Edit: 2017-04-13, 04:40:52 by OakdaleFTL
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • krake
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Burning pockets
Reply #50
Burning pockets smell bad.
Pecunia non olet. :)

  • Belfrager
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #51
Don't forget to make sure you emptied their pockets before burning them at the stake.  :)
Are you trying to teach the mass to the priest?  :devil:
A matter of attitude.

  • OakdaleFTL
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #52
My dear departed brother-in-law was a devout Catholic, who rejected the church because of an egregious lapse by a prelate: While supposedly celebrating Mass, the priest noticed a lad coming a little late to the rite. He -the priest- also noticed that the lad had not dropped coins into the Poor Box... He called him out to the congregation, as he took his seat in the pews, and denigrated him for his lack of "charity" and his poor Christian sentiments.
My brother-in-law knew the lad and his family, and knew what their financial situation was -- dire.
He also knew: A vicious and avaricious priest was let preach again; nobody said anything against him. (He went back to whatever diocese he came from... And they probably accepted him back.) That was enough, for him: The Church was a broken institution, he figured.
With the elevation of Jorge Mario Bergoglio to Pope, we've reverted to our recently ancient argument: What matters more, communism or individual freedom? :(
He's in the communism camp -- because his countrymen were such bastards!

Will he learn about other parts of the world? Nah! I'm sorry to say this, but I expect him to be killed in Egypt. If he isn't, it's because al Sisi is a moral and effective ruler...

进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • ersi
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #53
With the elevation of Jorge Mario Bergoglio to Pope, we've reverted to our recently ancient argument: What matters more, communism or individual freedom? :(
Is this the question for a church?

Looks like wherever you are, it's you versus liberals. Nothing else going on in your head.
  • Last Edit: 2017-04-28, 08:50:09 by ersi

  • Barulheira
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #54
He's in the communism camp -- because his countrymen were such bastards!
This is the kind of hasty generalization that scares me.

  • krake
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #55
He's in the communism camp -- because his countrymen were such bastards!
If everyone who has bastard coutrymen would be in the communist camp then the whole world would be communist and you'd adore now a communist president.
Fortunately it's not the case and you can relax by simply adoring a dangerous idiot. :)

  • Belfrager
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #56
Oakdale, stop to be such an idiot.
A matter of attitude.

  • Belfrager
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #57
As for Ersi, Barulheira and Krake, all of you are wrong.
None of you are Catholic, none of you knows what you're talking about.
The Pope needs no defense from you.

but I expect him to be killed in Egypt
He was not.

But, hey, he can be at Fátima in Portugal....
I wonder what American Bishops are doing so you say the things you say...
  • Last Edit: 2017-04-30, 22:38:36 by Belfrager
A matter of attitude.

  • rjhowie
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #58
Regarding Popish arrogance - well done and three out of three!  :hat:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #59
He was not.
You might have quoted me more fully... I said: "I'm sorry to say this, but I expect him to be killed in Egypt. If he isn't, it's because al Sisi is a moral and effective ruler..."
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • Barulheira
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #60
As for Ersi, Barulheira and Krake, all of you are wrong.
None of you are Catholic, none of you knows what you're talking about.
The Pope needs no defense from you.
Thanks for citing my nickname. However, a little bit of English reading comprehension would tell you that neither one of us three was defending the Pope or anything Catholic at all. We were questioning OakdaleFTL's kind of argumentation.
Whom, in the next post, you called an idiot.
So, to a good measure, you agreed with us.  :happy:

  • OakdaleFTL
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #61
BTW: "reprentation" is a technical term... "Representation" is a term that defies definition.
I'm not surprised, no one here noticed...
Does the Pope accept the concept of democracy, pure democracy? That if enough people agree than 2+2=5, than it's true? Sure. He's not smart enough to argue...
The Pontif is woefully inept. (I used the ancient spelling purposely. You can add another "f" if you'd like...)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • krake
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #62
BTW: "reprentation" is a technical term...
Was that "technical term" coined by you or you can point to a source where it is used?
I'm not surprised, no one here noticed...
And I'm not at all surprised that you didn't notice that at least someone has noticed...Here..
That if enough people agree than 2+2=5, than it's true?
For you democracy means: 2+2=5
It tells a lot about your understanding of democracy. :left:

  • OakdaleFTL
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #63
Try here... (7.4.4)
Or here...
  • Last Edit: 2017-05-03, 21:11:23 by OakdaleFTL
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • Belfrager
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #64
Does the Pope accept the concept of democracy, pure democracy?
Do you suffer from congenit stupidity? since when the Pope has to answer you? since when religions equals to politics? since when God needs to be "democratic"?

Sorry Oakdale but I'm tired of calling you stupid, that's no way to behave between gentlemen.
You disapoint me and I have no more patience for such low intelectual level.
A matter of attitude.

  • rjhowie
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #65
 :lol:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ensbb3
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #66
I was just gonna nope the hell outta this. -However I can't help but some mild trolling... There's, of course, a Twitter link.

 :doh: #reprentation

  • jax
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #67
Norway's general election: all you need to know


Quote
How does the system work?
The country of 5.2 million people uses a modified proportional representation system in which 150 MPs in the 169-seat storting are directly elected in Norway's 19 constituencies.
The remaining 19 so-called "levelling" seats are then distributed proportionately to parties that clear a 4% vote threshold so their final seat tally in the parliament fairly reflects their share of the national vote.

  • rjhowie
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #68
oakdaleFTL, Meant to say a while ago your initial title was mis-spelled!
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #69
This, from RJ! :) The word is a technical term... You're a non-technical person, RJ. (Paiget's epistemology and pedagogy. He was French, you know?)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • Barulheira
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Pay get?
Reply #70

  • Frenzie
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Administrator
Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #71
Can't be him. :P

He was French, you know?

Quote from: Wikipedia
Piaget's theory [...] was first created by the Swiss developmental psychologist Jean Piaget (1896-1980).

:angel:

  • Barulheira
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Pay get?
Reply #72
There must have existed a French person called Paiget. (And RJ should know it...)

  • ensbb3
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #73
It's all really quite technical, you see. :left:

  • OakdaleFTL
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: "Proportional" reprentation
Reply #74
Hey, fellows: I'm old and tired! Piaget (who spells his name oddly... :) ) wrote a few books that should be read by anyone who'd appreciate developmental psychology.
The idea that epistemology is gradually acquired shouldn't be controversial; but for Piaget, it would be. He was a scientist and a philosopher. That he advanced our understanding of psychology is undeniable.
Except by those who'd deny everything that doesn't comport with their ideology...

Consider this:
Quote
When I teach the Constitution, I like to ask the
class this question: "When we elect a representative to Congress,
whom does he represent?" Only the occasional European or Latin
American student sees the point immediately. The American students,
suspecting a trap, are slow to give the obvious answer: He (or
she) represents the people in his district, his "constituency." They do
come forward with this answer eventually, at which point I inquire:
"'All of the people in his district--including those who voted against
him?" Yes, of course. And suddenly enlightenment dawns--the realization
that there is something special about this American assumption.
In no other country in the world does the electoral process proceed
on any such peculiar assumption. Everywhere else, elected
representatives represent mainly their parties and the ideology of
their parties, which is identified with the "public interest." Only in
America is it taken for granted that they ought to represent, first of
all, the economic interests of all of their constituents. This can be
taken for granted because it has been assumed for two centuries
economic condition within the framework of a settled way of life
than in any ideology or "cause"--or at least expect their political
representatives to work toward that economic end rather than
expending too much energy promoting any particular ideology or
"cause." Surely the main reason that the socialist idea has been so
weak in America is the fact that it necessarily violates this political
constitutional assumption.
(source)

(There may be mishaps in my quoting... But so few bother with close reading that they shouldn't matter. Howie will fume: America, bad! and some few others will agree. Some will equivocate. But the main point is undeniable: We are different, in our preconceptions and in our aspirations...

(My apologies, to those who were offended that I assumed that a guy writing in French was French... What was I thinking? He, of course, did his research and taught at institutions in Switzerland, the home of the swizzle-stick -- for which we should all be eternally grateful!)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman