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Topic: what's going on in france (Read 1336 times)

  • Sparta
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what's going on in france
if le pen elected, will france really will do brexit ?

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: what's going on in france
Reply #25
Care to ellucidate what is the "such a strong position" the EU has now?
Never, ever, the EU was at such low position.

The British traison doesn't make a stronger EU. Punish the traitors, I agree with that, but nobody should think that France can stop Germany. Never.
Is not possible to have a strong EU, while Germany is illegally deciding everything about Europe.
An invisible Reich, the fourth I suppose.
Europe is under occupation.

We agree, it seems, that the countries have the power in the EU, and really the most powerful at that, which in particular means Germany. 

If we go back to the original vision of what was to become the EU, that vision was decidedly Charlemagnean. The ideal was the Germanic war criminal Charles the Great. A recreation of a new Western European superstate without Britain, Portugal, Sweden or Poland. Britain has never wanted that, so when in they immediately set out to corrupt it, by arguing for Greek membership. (They are still at it, so the same politicians that campaigned that Britain should leave the EU because of the danger of a Turkish invasion through the EU are the ones arguing that Turkey should become an EU member.) 

I think the corrupted British vision is far better, but not accidentally it also means that the EU is less powerful. Whatever power the EU has is what the constituting nations give it. Many of those nations, not the EU itself, have had a prolonged crisis of confidence. The EU is relatively popular, while nations that have traditionally been strongly for EU have lost a lot of that support, nations that have been critical of the EU have begun to like it a lot more. It's a harmonisation of attitude so to speak. The troll factories in the US, Russia, Iran... have not had the deleterious effect intended. On the contrary, Putin, Trump, Erdogan and Brexit have made the EU far more attractive. 

European integration in fields that for decades have been blocked by member nations (particularly Britain), may come on the agenda. As I said, I don't think I like it, and I suspect many of you won't either. Like the British I prefer an EU not so dysfunctional as not to get things done, but not so functional as to get ideas. The pendulum seems to be swinging towards the latter. 

  • rjhowie
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Re: what's going on in france
Reply #26
The EU for all it's cobblers is still a financial headache.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Frenzie
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  • Administrator
Re: what's going on in france
Reply #27
Btw, what's negative about repairing shoes?

  • Belfrager
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Re: what's going on in france
Reply #28
On the contrary, Putin, Trump, Erdogan and Brexit have made the EU far more attractive.
Without enemies there's no unity.
Like the British I prefer an EU not so dysfunctional as not to get things done, but not so functional as to get ideas. The pendulum seems to be swinging towards the latter
British are not interested at the EU and they probably never were. They thought they could stop Germans by beig inside, when they realized they can't do it, they just leave, always with their egotistic vision, rats leaving the ship as they did before at so many "alliances".

I think the EU, as originally defined as an "Europe of Nations" is the most advanced level humanity has ever got.
It's not an easy way but I believe to be wortwhile to defend it. It can't be extended to everybody, British were the first to show it.

I think that an EU that respects each Nation has to be slow at changing things. When people wants velocity they should chose occupation.
Even slow EU is way ahead from the entire rest of the world at everything that matters citizenś quality of life and respect for our rights.
  • Last Edit: 2017-05-09, 23:33:53 by Belfrager
A matter of attitude.

  • rjhowie
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Re: what's going on in france
Reply #29
Being geographically physically separated was an influence but I have to say the Euro has been struggling for some time now and still no sign of being stabilised. So things are not that concrete.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ersi
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Re: what's going on in france
Reply #30
If we go back to the original vision of what was to become the EU, that vision was decidedly Charlemagnean. ... Britain has never wanted that, so when in they immediately set out to corrupt it, by arguing for Greek membership. (They are still at it, so the same politicians that campaigned that Britain should leave the EU because of the danger of a Turkish invasion through the EU are the ones arguing that Turkey should become an EU member.)
It wasn't only Britain that wanted Turkish (!!!) membership. German and French leaders were also in favour of it. Those three (Britain, Germany, France) used to constitute the EU3, the major force pulling the strings (or by pulling which anybody could pull the strings) and it will probably continue like this even when Britain is formally outside.

Greece into eurozone - criminal and stupid. Turkey as a suggested member of EU - insane and evil. All important EU members were irrationally  in favour of it. Luckily Turkey itself made this impossible, but I suspect that once the war in Syria is over, the negotiations will be started again.

I think the corrupted British vision is far better...
Better for whom? Better in what sense?

...but not accidentally it also means that the EU is less powerful. Whatever power the EU has is what the constituting nations give it.
Not so simple. EU is a world force. When it's weakened, a world force is weakened, and the interest in keeping it weak lies outside EU, not inside. Inside EU, Britain has always been intentionally undermining EU (showing that it never was a proper member), but the others have been doing it only out of ignorance and stupidity. It's not been so much EU members weakening EU as it's been US and Russia taking it apart whenever they feel like it, proving the weakness of EU.

 
Many of those nations, not the EU itself, have had a prolonged crisis of confidence. The EU is relatively popular...
Where I am, EU was never popular. The popular perception is ambivalent. EU is good for some things, and if it did them well, it would be popular. Unfortunately EU is barely functional, while being thoroughly bureaucratic, technocratic and anti-democratic. The only thing saving it from people's rage is that some things work somewhat, but for example borders have been reappearing lately so even this aspect has stopped functioning. The world in the immediate vicinity of EU has always been in turmoil and EU has been dismal at addressing this.

At the moment I cannot think of a single thing that works with EU. Its only purpose for the time being is to keep itself distinguished from enemies (enemies like Britain, US, Turkey, Russia...) but EU has always been bad at this. There is no hope.

On the contrary, Putin, Trump, Erdogan and Brexit have made the EU far more attractive.
Yeah, the way a kitchen knife is attractive when you find a bear scratching at your door. But everybody knows kitchen knife is not much help against a bear, so it's not really very attractive, and it never was attractive in the proper sense of the word.

  • Sparta
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Re: what's going on in france
Reply #31
EU at strong position ?

then why euro weaken sharply  in this few days?

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: what's going on in france
Reply #32
then why euro weaken sharply  in this few days?
You can't take market fluctuations short-term to mean anything, Sparta.
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • krake
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Re: what's going on in france
Reply #33
market fluctuations
Reminds me of a joke. :)

A Chinese man walked into the currency exchange in New York City with 2100 yuan and walked out with $300.
The following week, he walked in with another 2100 yuan, and was handed $276.
He asked the teller why he got less money that week than the previous week.
The teller said, "Fluctuations."
The Chinese man stormed out, and just before slamming the door, turned around and shouted, "Fluc you Amelicans, too!"


  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: what's going on in france
Reply #34
It wasn't only Britain that wanted Turkish (!!!) membership. German and French leaders were also in favour of it. Those three (Britain, Germany, France) used to constitute the EU3, the major force pulling the strings (or by pulling which anybody could pull the strings) and it will probably continue like this even when Britain is formally outside.

Greece into eurozone - criminal and stupid. Turkey as a suggested member of EU - insane and evil. All important EU members were irrationally  in favour of it. Luckily Turkey itself made this impossible, but I suspect that once the war in Syria is over, the negotiations will be started again.

Greek membership was at least ahead of time and certainly disruptive to any vision of a deeply integrated union cum federation. The French government has always and consistently been deeply hostile to the idea of Turkey inside the EU, they have never been "in favour". What people say and their real intentions are not always the same thing. It took the Turks too a while to catch on that France would never (for a fairly prolonged value of "never") allow Turkey on the inside, but for the last five years or so it has been clear. Germany too is hostile, but they at least at times could entertain the notion.  Turkey has now been "associate member" of this club for fifty years while they can see other countries (like Estonia) get in after waiting a few years in line.

Those of us that like to play the long game still like to see Turkey in the EU, but by the current situation it won't happen in most of ours life times. Turkey is also more on equal footing, due to rapid economic growth. In 1980 Greece and Turkey had about the same  size economy though Turkey had five times the population. Today Turkey's economy is almost four times Greece's, with seven times the population (Russia had four times the population and five times the economy, now double the population and more than half again the economy).

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: what's going on in france
Reply #35
Quote from: jax on 2017-05-09, 10:41:42I think the corrupted British vision is far better...
Better for whom? Better in what sense?

The EU as the All-European marketplace of money, people and ideas versus the original concept I caricatured as a second Carolingian Empire.

An EU with Portugal, Scotland, Sweden, Greece and Estonia in it is a better EU than one without.

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: what's going on in france
Reply #36
Not so simple. EU is a world force. When it's weakened, a world force is weakened, and the interest in keeping it weak lies outside EU, not inside. Inside EU, Britain has always been intentionally undermining EU (showing that it never was a proper member), but the others have been doing it only out of ignorance and stupidity. It's not been so much EU members weakening EU as it's been US and Russia taking it apart whenever they feel like it, proving the weakness of EU.


Where I am, EU was never popular. The popular perception is ambivalent. EU is good for some things, and if it did them well, it would be popular. Unfortunately EU is barely functional, while being thoroughly bureaucratic, technocratic and anti-democratic. The only thing saving it from people's rage is that some things work somewhat, but for example borders have been reappearing lately so even this aspect has stopped functioning. The world in the immediate vicinity of EU has always been in turmoil and EU has been dismal at addressing this.

At the moment I cannot think of a single thing that works with EU. Its only purpose for the time being is to keep itself distinguished from enemies (enemies like Britain, US, Turkey, Russia...) but EU has always been bad at this. There is no hope.

Yeah, the way a kitchen knife is attractive when you find a bear scratching at your door. But everybody knows kitchen knife is not much help against a bear, so it's not really very attractive, and it never was attractive in the proper sense of the word.

Let's look at the actors, and the powers. The power behind the EU are the national governments, and not all of them. The real capitals of the EU are Berlin, London, Paris and Brussels, roughly in that order, with London to be removed. Other countries, like Italy, Netherlands, or Poland, have influence mind you, but there are no permanent blocks. Britain and France have all aspects of power, including the ability to project military power. Germany doesn't have that, but have all other aspects of power, most obviously economic power.

Those having power don't give it up easily, and that is the situation with the EU. Giving up domestic control of the economy in the interest of trade is easy, everybody wins. Most everybody in business at least. Giving up other forms of powers come harder. Over the decades gradually more power has flowed to the EU level, mostly as a consequence of one crisis or another, sometimes by a rare confluence of interest. The EU started as a tent, now it is a semi-permanent superstructure. But as long as the Estonians don't care much for the Greeks, and neither the Portuguese for the Germans, this process will proceed at trickle speed.

At the same time, the relative power of the EU member nations in the world is declining. Europe is no longer on top of the world, it's just another place. The EU, were it a nation, would be a world power. On the other hand, were it a nation it would probably be as miserable as the US, maybe worse. Thus my preference for a half-way house.

The EU doesn't have a democracy deficit, it has a democracy surplus. But powers, once given, are hard to take away, so we will have to live with that. Bureaucracy is always good. History has taught us that the one with the better bureaucracy wins in the end.

  • ersi
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Re: what's going on in france
Reply #37
Nice try to move the discussion, but I think the Europe thread is even better for this.

  • Belfrager
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Re: what's going on in france
Reply #38
The EU as the All-European marketplace of [...]
That's your problem, you don't understand that Europe is not, never was supposed to be and should never be a "marketplace".

Anyway this is about France. Solely.
A matter of attitude.

  • rjhowie
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Re: what's going on in france
Reply #39
Well jax interesting you lump Scotland in with those poor economic mess countries but there is no way Scotland would or will be so destined.You can take the Scot Nat nutjobs and do what you like with them though.  :up:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: what's going on in france
Reply #40
For those who might be interested, here's an opinion piece worth reading... (Well, I thought so. :) )
But this is about France (and Europe) and its future. Presumably, some of you are interested, as well.
Maybe not: People like ersi and Belfrager are tending their gardens or gazing at their navel lint...
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • Sparta
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Re: what's going on in france
Reply #41
i think europe is not europe union.

france not doing frexit, i guess its still in EU and still using euro currency

  • krake
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Re: what's going on in france
Reply #42
Europe is not, never was supposed to be and should never be a "marketplace".
Whether it was supposed or not, the whole world is a marketplace ever since our ancestors started to exchange goods and slaves.

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: what's going on in france
Reply #43
There are indications that the Neandertals were trading amongst themselves. If that were the case Europe was a market place long before the first humans of our kind arrived. Those too had European trade posts, though it was hardly fullblown capitalism (even back then they had the four freedoms though, the free movement of goods, capital, services, and labour).


  • krake
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Re: what's going on in france
Reply #44
There are indications that the Neandertals were trading amongst themselves.
:)  Evolution:


  • Belfrager
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Re: what's going on in france
Reply #45
There are indications that the Neandertals were trading amongst themselves. If that were the case Europe was a market place long before the first humans of our kind arrived.
Nonsense.
Trying to use ape-like creatures to justify "liberal" capitalism against what makes European ideals unique and ahead the rest of the world, dignity of the human being, a fair redistribution of wealth and a sustainable development.
A matter of attitude.

  • rjhowie
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Re: what's going on in france
Reply #46
Hhhm. Bet if you won millions you would be tempted to be hypocrtical?!  :up:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Belfrager
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Re: what's going on in france
Reply #47
A market place is not a place where there's a market or people simply trade. A marketplace, at it's current definition, meaning "liberal" capitalist definition and vision, it's a place were market rules above morals.
That's what globalization tries the entire world to be.
A matter of attitude.

  • Colonel Rebel
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Re: what's going on in france
Reply #48
President Macron's party seems to have done quite well.
Best of luck to our oldest ally.

  • rjhowie
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Re: what's going on in france
Reply #49
Oldest ally? Yeah when it suited.
"Quit you like men:be strong"