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Total Members Voted: 2

Topic: Infrastructure (Read 13649 times)

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Infrastructure
Do we invest too little in public infrastructure, or too much? Should we spend more on new infrastructure, or in maintaining what we got? Should old infrastructure be replaced, upgraded, removed, or saved for posterity? Who should pay for it? Who should use it? What infrastructure should we have more of and what less? Is it good for your town, country, world, even if it is away from you? Where can we find good infrastructure and where bad?

  • krake
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Re: Infrastructure
Reply #200
In Belgium they call it an autostrade.
That's an usual term for some Romanic languages such as Italian or Romanian - autostrada (auto+strada).

http://www.asfinag.at/newsroom/wssarchiv/-/asset_publisher/3037242/content/autobahn-versus-autostra%C3%9Fe-%E2%80%93-der-feine-unterschied
Mit der Änderung von 2006 des Bundesstraßengesetzes 1971 wurden sämtliche Unterscheidungen von Schnellstraßen und Autobahnen aufgehoben.
That's from Austria. :)

In Germany there are distinct differences between Autobahn and Kraftfahrstraße. The latter we usually call Schnellstraße.


  • Frenzie
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  • Administrator
Re: Infrastructure
Reply #201
That's from Austria.  :)
Right, it's obvious from the URL. I actually didn't know Austria was a Bund as well.

  • Belfrager
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Re: Infrastructure
Reply #202
That's an usual term for some Romanic languages such as Italian or Romanian - autostrada (auto+strada).
Autostrada, autoestrada, autopista it's all the same thing - a fenced, at least with two lanes each direction, high velocity road with no leveled cross.

If not fenced, it's not an autoestrada but a "via rápida" (fast road) with a lower velocity limit and it can have leveled crossings.

Those autostradas are the responsible for the death of entire regions, the desertification of the interior and should be immediately destroyed.
Besides, tolls are the reminiscent of medieval ages.
A matter of attitude.

  • jax
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
Re: Infrastructure
Reply #203
Mega-canals could slice through continents for giant ships



Quote
While the Nicaraguan canal promises to vastly expand the Central American shipping corridor, a further two mega-canals are being negotiated. They would offer alternatives to two other major sea routes, namely the Bosporus - Russia's sole southerly maritime access to the outside world - and the narrow Straits of Malacca, the gateway to China. Their advocates have watched the Nicaragua protests with interest, and their mood may well have been lifted by developments there.

Bypassing the Straits of Malacca would mean cutting a 50-kilometre notch through a finger of land called the Kra isthmus, in the south of Thailand (see map). This would give China, the region's superpower, the option for its ships to avoid the congested straits, shortening a route used at present by a third of all international cargo shipping. Container ships sailing between Shanghai and Mumbai, for example, would be able to shave more than two days off an 11-day journey.

The environmental impact of the project has not been studied but could be considerable, says Ruth Banomyong of the Thammasat University in Bangkok. However, as in Nicaragua, political will is unlikely to bow to environmental concerns. With an estimated cost of $20 billion, the Thai canal will be the cheapest of the proposed mega-canals, as well as the simplest to build. Another plus is that it would fulfil a promise made in 2013 by Chinese premier Xi Jinping to create a "maritime silk road".

Both the Thai and Nicaraguan canals are dwarfed by a project being plotted to connect the Caspian Sea with the Persian Gulf. Its route would cleave right across Iran, stretching some 1400 kilometres. But length is hardly the biggest challenge. It would also need to traverse mountains up to 1600 metres high, requiring more than 50 giant locks, says Peyman Moazzen, a marine engineer based in Singapore, who has studied the scheme.

But the geopolitical prize might be worth the effort. Such a link would give Russia a long-desired sea route to east Asia that avoids the circuitous journey via essentially Western-controlled seaways like the Bosporus and the Suez Canal. Any environmental concerns would probably be trumped by the fact that Iranians think one of the proposed routes could double as an irrigation canal, watering the desert sands of eastern Iran.

  • rjhowie
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Re: Infrastructure
Reply #204
Recently a goods train service was started from the south of Gt Britain to China.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: Infrastructure
Reply #205
Both the Thai and Nicaraguan canals are dwarfed by a project being plotted to connect the Caspian Sea with the Persian Gulf. Its route would cleave right across Iran, stretching some 1400 kilometres. But length is hardly the biggest challenge. It would also need to traverse mountains up to 1600 metres high, requiring more than 50 giant locks, says Peyman Moazzen, a marine engineer based in Singapore, who has studied the scheme.
I'm not opposed to these feats of engineering.
But I question the political savvy of those who'd suggest a route through Iran...
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • Belfrager
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Infrastructure
Reply #206
The only megacanal going on was made by climatic change, the artic passage. Destroying the world.
All the rest has no interest but to get richer governants and construction companies.

Strong lobbies we've here at DnD about such industries and defending corrupt politicians.
A matter of attitude.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: Infrastructure
Reply #207
So: The world was destroyed! (I didn't notice... Perhaps from Portugal it looks different? :) )

Belfrager, have you anything -beyond your garden- that interests you? (Indeed, are you even a little bit interested in your garden? I doubt it; you probably buy your groceries at the local market, just like everyone else.)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • Frenzie
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Administrator
Re: Infrastructure
Reply #208
So: The world was destroyed! (I didn't notice... Perhaps from Portugal it looks different?  :)  )
Destroying, not destroyed. Perhaps you still disagree, but it's a slight distinction. :P

  • Belfrager
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Re: Infrastructure
Reply #209
Belfrager, have you anything -beyond your garden- that interests you?
Not too much these days. Thanks for asking.
A matter of attitude.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: Infrastructure
Reply #210
Then I hope your garden is a continual joy.
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • jax
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
Re: Infrastructure
Reply #211
Iran already has some transnational infrastructure, we can expect that to increase greatly. Iran is politically among the least risky among all the countries in between. That said, infrastructure can go both ways, it can make the region more reasonable, or it could lead to local blackmail and warlordism.

  • Belfrager
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Re: Infrastructure
Reply #212
Then I hope your garden is a continual joy.
My "garden" is a revolution.
Everyday people joins it.
A matter of attitude.

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: Infrastructure
Reply #213
Urban metros/subways networks in China.


  • rjhowie
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Re: Infrastructure
Reply #214
lucky China.

My city has the third oldest subway in the world and goes round in a roughly six and a half mile circle. Always talk about extension but never happens!
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Frenzie
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  • Administrator
Re: Infrastructure
Reply #215
It looks like Glasgow is the only city on this list with a metro built before the 1990s that hasn't had an extension.

But extension is one thing, actually using it another. In the time I've been living in Antwerp a whole new tunnel and various tunnel segments of the metro have been added to the metro network.[1] Those tunnels had been lying in wait since the late '70s. Brussels also has at least one ghost station dating from 1988.
Premetro network if you wish to be pedantic about it. http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/be/ant/antwerpen.htm

  • jax
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
Re: Infrastructure
Reply #216
Until recently Glasgow was among the few cities that have shrunk in size, while most cities have grown, many by a lot.

Anyway the same guy as with the Chinese metro growth has made mini maps for most metro networks in the world, including Glasgow (sorted by English name of country, then city, so Glasgow is near the bottom). 


  • jax
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
Re: Infrastructure
Reply #217
They are worth a look btw. Here's Stockholm. Can you say "Single point of failure"? I knew you could (that will improve in a couple years from now).



The smaller Prague network avoids that



These icons don't include commuter rail (e.g. S-bahn) and tram networks (except one for Hong Kong New Territories, but that a cute one). Thus e.g. the Copenhagen network is pretty bare at the moment. Even including railroad Stockholm has a single point of failure (and often transfer), the Central Station stop. 


  • Frenzie
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Administrator
Re: Infrastructure
Reply #218
They are worth a look btw. Here's Stockholm. Can you say "Single point of failure"? I knew you could (that will improve in a couple years from now).
Such graphs can be deceptive though. It could just as easily mean three tunnels and stations that are close to each other as three lines that go through one tunnel.

  • jax
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
Re: Infrastructure
Reply #219
These are three  tunnels (plus tunnels for railroad). 




Actually these may give a more correct tunnel-centric representation than line maps. Compare the Oslo map:




with the line map:

All lines share the common tunnel on the bottom. The top drawing is correct, while the bottom may be read as having more tunnels than there are.

  • Frenzie
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Administrator
Re: Infrastructure
Reply #220
These are three  tunnels (plus tunnels for railroad).
Doesn't that reduce the single point of failure-y-ness? :devil:

  • jax
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
Re: Infrastructure
Reply #221
Yes, it definitely reduces it compared with a single set of tracks, but it doesn't remove it.

The local and regional trains are currently extremely vulnerable as there are only two tracks between the Central Station and the South Station, and there have been since the two were connected in 1871, only difference is that now there are 600 trains passing daily. Any disruption will disrupt the whole system, and of course there are many, and of course that has ramifications for Stockholm and Sweden (because of course most trains just have to pass that bottleneck).  Until 50 days from now (and counting), when a new double-track tunnel will open. 



The metro system isn't that pessimal, but a little worse than I mentioned above. Technically the red and green lines are in one tunnel at its most cramped/vulnerable by Central Station, two track one level above the other two. The blue line is separate, but doesn't go southwards at current (just one more station), so southbound there is only one tunnel.

More to the point the station itself is a single point of failure. Almost all transport systems go within a couple hundred meters of each other. Something station-wide, a fire say, would shut down everything. The old railroad tunnel, the new railroad tunnel, all three metro lines, and the airport train and regional busses for good measure. Now, the risk of something like that happening is orders of magnitude lower. To my knowledge it hasn't happened, while some track problem happens every other day.


The daily aggravation is rather that an insane number of transfers happens within the same location, making the Central Station stop Chinese-level busy, for a rather modest-sized city.

  • rjhowie
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Re: Infrastructure
Reply #222
What was a damnable nuisance in the very old Glasgow subway was that it was not the same gauge as the suburban railways beside it so that would put off any idea of a linkage with such. Originally built in Victorian times it started as a rope drawn thing then taken over by the City Council who electrified it. Over decades odd passing things would come up about just basically extending from the circle rather than say initally convert to standard rail gauge (no doubt due to the massive cost of that alone). It is very modern and well used but so damn limited in size of the area.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Frenzie
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Administrator
Re: Infrastructure
Reply #223
This comparison of schematic metro lines with their actual geography is quite topical.

http://digg.com/2017/subway-maps-vs-geography

  • Belfrager
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Infrastructure
Reply #224
Schematic metro lines are considered a major invention, made by a guy I don't remember the name, that realized that when using the subway people don't need to know the geographical location but only the stop's succesion. Therefore, a virtual diagram can be much more useful than a real map.
With such insight very complex maps could be turned into easy to interpretate straight lines.
A matter of attitude.