Skip to main content

Topic: Can Detroit get any worse? (Read 4192 times)

  • rjhowie
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Can Detroit get any worse?
Recently a news item on the city was still in the shocking corner. Well over 700,000 citizens have no water. So nothing for drinking, washing, disposing of sewage. Apparently they cannot afford the cost and the city pulled the l=plug so to speak. Most of us have seen the rows of empty homes, ruins and now this. It is tragic in this modern day and age for this nightmare to show no sign of being dealt with - just get worse.  :worried:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • mjmsprt40
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
  • undocumented space alien
Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #1
One reason for not having any water might have to do with an environmental issue. The West end of Lake Erie suffered from an intense algae bloom this year, it cut water to a number of cities that depend on lake water as the algae created poisons in the water that the filtration systems couldn't entirely handle. I know Detroit doesn't get its water from Lake Erie, but it does get water from Lake St.Clair and the river that connects it to Lake Erie so it's entirely possible that it was suffering from the same algae problems.

Toledo, Ohio had to have water shipped in by truck because of this problem. It was actually pretty widespread on the West end of Lake Erie.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

  • rjhowie
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #2
Ehmr..no offence mjsmsprt40 but you diverge into a corner that well doesn't apply in actuality. I pointed out that the 700,00 plus cannot afford to pay the City Council for a water supply so I did give an accurate point. The shambles that Detroit has become is something hard to put my mind round as is not something that would be recognised here but what is more important that in a modern day and age people in a civilised situation have to live like the Third World? One cannot help but feel for these poor folk having to live like that and is a crying shame. On top of that disaster for families are whole districts looking like bombed zones. Water is a basic need for life and living and that a city has this nightmare is a frightful and deploring matter.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • mjmsprt40
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
  • undocumented space alien
Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #3
I've been waiting for Smiley to weigh in on this. There's a reason why Detroit is as bad as it is, and it has to do with decades of the way it's been run.

Business was driven out of the city a long time ago by confiscatory taxing policies, by unions that did't know when to stop, and by a political environment that made Detroit the last place you'd want to start a new enterprise.

Today, here in Illinois we have a political environment shaping up that will eventually make first Chicago, then the entire state eventually look like Detroit does now. You can see it in the fact that moving vans are going the wrong way as far as building this state up is concerned. Where are they going? Indiana has billboards up, inviting people/businesses who are fed up with Illinois to move to Indiana, which is a lower-tax state. The Southern states look awfully attractive too. Springfield and Chicago can hardly wait to initiate ever more confiscatory taxes, and penalties which are really taxes in disguise, so it's only a matter of time until they tax this state into ruin.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #4
Hey, quit spittin' on Detroit.......Their Baseball Team is in first place (my Yankees are way behind), so things ain't all that bad ..... Soon as some filters are fitted into the system, & leakage is stemmed, water should be more plentiful -- that is unless until the Progressive Left's Marxist Politico Machine tax the living hell out of every drop, then it's back to square one. The days of free water is way over. The water department says .... Can't pay ---  move away.

Politically, under Democrat control since 1962, Detroit's Socialistic Progressive policies eventually caused massive overall failure -- causing migration....... Detroit is (just living) living  proof.

The working middle class moved out, & the non-working, government dependent poor moved in.

Water is just one of the latest problems a dying Detroit has to deal with.

  • Last Edit: 2014-09-15, 00:54:56 by SmileyFaze

Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #5
Business was driven out of the city a long time ago by confiscatory taxing policies

I'm not disagreeing with you completely, but the city never recovered from the near collapse of the auto industry in the late 1970's and early 80's. The tax policy may well have served as a disincentive for new business to locate there. Boiling it down to just one factor is a pundit's answer, For the city to recover, they need the complete picture. There's also the factor of corrupt mayors such as Kwame Kilpatrick, sentenced to prison for 28 years.
Under Democrat control since 1962, Detroit's Socialistic policies eventually caused massive overall failure ....... Detroit is living (just living) proof.

What's interesting about 2013's economic growth is that it breaks down more by region than by red state/blue state and tax policy. Despite the Republican bashing of California. it actually has a faster growth now than most of the Red southern states. The South Red states, for the most part, had poor economic performance.  Under conservative control for nearly their entire existence (if it was Dixiecrat or Republican) parts of that region are borderline third world.


Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #6
What's interesting about 2013's economic growth is that it breaks down more by region than by red state/blue state and tax policy. Despite the Republican bashing of California. it actually has a faster growth now than most of the Red southern states. The South Red states, for the most part, had poor economic performance.  Under conservative control for nearly their entire existence (if it was Dixiecrat or Republican) parts of that region are borderline third world.


I'm sorry 'Coony, forgive me. I thought we were talkin' about lil ole Detroit.

I didn't know it was a national red-state vs blue-state. blossoming into world-wide, teetering on inter-galactic, all encompassing, universal economy, God save the Queen of Scots, thing .......

Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #7
You're theorizing that Detroit's ills were brought on it by being ruled by Democrats. I merely pointed out that economic success doesn't seem to hinge on being ruled by either party. A city or state can dogmatically follow GOP policy straight into bankruptcy as easily Democratic policy.

Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #8
You're theorizing that Detroit's ills were brought on it by being ruled by Democrats. I merely pointed out that economic success doesn't seem to hinge on being ruled by either party. A city or state can dogmatically follow GOP policy straight into bankruptcy as easily Democratic policy.


Flat out wrong when it comes down to The City of Detroit & Detroit ONLY, which is (or should be) the focus of this thread.

Fact: Detroit has been run by successive democrat regimes, & no one else, since 1962.

Fact: Those democrat regimes in the last 20 or so years put their Social Programs (Progressive Leftist Agendas) into gear, as well as insane tax policies in a vain attempt to pay for them ---- Other Peoples Money ---- causing a consistent outflow of tax payers -- sick & tired of the ever rising tax burdens being placed on their fewer numbers -- who were steadily replaced by Social Program users -- Government controlled & dependent lower class poor who were attracted to the plethora of those programs.  As time rolled on, less people to pay coupled with the influx of more who used but don't pay, caused a steady deterioration of all services & infrastructure. Detroit's downward spiral was inseparably connected to the democrat governments that controlled it's economic & social policy, & therefore it's future.

Fact in Conclusion: Detroit's problems were caused, & fueled by the democrat regimes (Socialists & Progressives) that controlled all the policies within the City of Detroit.

Those are  facts that can't be ignored or denied, regardless the trivial arguments to the contrary.
  • Last Edit: 2014-09-15, 04:07:15 by SmileyFaze

  • Belfrager
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #9
I pointed out that the 700,00 plus cannot afford to pay the City Council for a water supply so I did give an accurate point.

I find that strange... and they can pay for food? electricity? color tv? pay to banks? automobiles? they just don't have money for paying the water?
I don't know how much water costs there but unless in Sahara, water it's not the most expensive thing in the cost of life.

What number is 700,00? seven hundred? seven thousand hundred with less a zero?
A matter of attitude.

Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #10
Fact, you're ignoring all other factors. Here's a more balance assessment of Detroit's decline. Note some of the articles points Poor housing stock, A poor public realm, A downtown that was allowed to become weak, Freeway expansion (can destroy neighborhoods, I've even seen it Atlanta), Lack of/loss of a transit network, An industrial landscape that constrained the city's core,  The article lists more points. Of course high taxes drive away business. this article notes excessive regulation and NAFTA shifting automobile production out of the US, which especially hurts Detroit. To bring the city back you need to get beyond partisan talking points and screaming fonts to find out what's unique to Detroit. You get frustrated with for bringing up whole states brought to ruin and/or have little economic growth by Republican economics, but offer nothing but the same GOP talking point with zero analysis of why some Democratic cities/states prosper or falter or likewise for Republican areas.

Again, since your skull is 20% denser than lead, this isn't too say a city or county can charge excessive tax.  I'm saying there are other factors in play as well.

BTW, the cities have little to do with welfare programs. That's the state and federal government's job. Hence if the state tends to run by Republicans or Democrats is more meaningful in that regard.  That's why it's Nevada Division of Welfare & Supportive Services, not Las Vegas.....


Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #11
Again, since your skull is 20% denser than lead................


Post reported......................................................¡ʇou  

Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #12
I think we all just need to take a step back; you, me, and Oakdale. In this, I'm basically in agreement over excess taxes but think it's the only factor. The race riots of 1967, also didn't help (like riots in Ferguson don't make that city attractive, either and it won't be surprising to see middle class people fleeing and merchants reluctant to set up shop.) Liberals and conservatives alike have their favorite answers on any issue and those range from downright wrong to only part of the story. You could probably train chimpanzees to replace those "pundits" work and yet people read their tripe because it tells them what they want to hear.  That's only a problem with blogs, but "news" sites and stations are more about shaping opinion than factual news.

That being the case, people want hear a diatribe that taxes killed Detroit when it was incompetent, corrupt governance, etc.

Now Detroit does indeed have high taxes:



source

But even the anti-tax article does note other factors.  Interestingly, it fails to note Detroit has a 2.5% income tax that you can get around by living in the suburbs.

But I were to open a business in Detroit, I would have to consider if the wages I would need to pay and the business I would get are likely to offset the tax burden (ie I would pay 50% more property tax in exchange for 100% more business and having to pay employees 20% less. But to make it even more complicated, would the crime rate and thus the insurance premiums and shrinkage due to theft make it unprofitable to operate there. That's just scratching the surface.) If the answer is "no" with enough businesses, you have a neighborhood or whole city in trouble.

  • jax
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #13
Whether to blame it on Democrats or Republicans, or most likely both, the structure of taxation has been a factor in the US War on Cities. Low taxes, high taxes, I hope there is an agreement that the income thereof should go to where it would do the most good. Where the tax system is wilfully set up such that the taxing structures of a city are fragmented and usually at odds with each other, economic devastation will follow.

  • rjhowie
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #14
I think you kind of guessed right mjsmsprt40 waiting for something from Smiley and there is little disappointment at knowing what would come.

It is far too simple an excuse of the cumfy off like hin to say the working middle clas moved out and the welfare people moved in. Somehow he doesn't figure out that those in the lower level who maybe aren't so clever are in a equally different league. What makes his mouthings a bit of something else is that the population has fallen drastically and many of the worse poor lived there too. You throw in acres of empty streets, crumbling houses along with the heavy decline which shows a different story. In his mindset some 700,000 plus flooded in are a disgraceful fairy tale. They were recorded citizens remember who were obviously paying water rates, etc hence being cut off. It doesn't compliment anyone to sneer off at hundreds of thousands of poor people and ignore them. I find that very immoral and distasteful but he represents a deplorable side of the nation that regards all poverty as self inflicted when it is NOT. He can rubbish human being as much as he wants from his comfortable life but I think it is a disgrace and shocking indictment.

I am aware that there are other towns in critical situations but terribly, Detroit is top of the sad, sad list. I cannot help feel for so many peole for society just to write off as nothings.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #15
.....I find that very immoral and distasteful but he represents a deplorable side of the nation that regards all poverty as self inflicted when it is NOT.....


I do not subscribe to the theory that all poverty is self-inflicted, not by a long shot.

That's a figment of your own corruptive imagination.

That said, much of the poverty is due to a lack of knowledge, a lack of desire, a lack of self-worth, & lack of self-esteem.

Oh, did I forget to mention unscrupulous politicians who promise the sun, the moon, & the stars to each & every one of them -- drawing them into their inescapable web of eternal government dependance, that cause people feel the ways I mentioned earlier.

The way out, realize it or not,  is within the reach of many to most, but unfortunately with politicians like Obama & his lot of Socialistic Progressives, who have never met a government social program they didn't like, the most vulnerable amongst us have been taught over & over to believe that government is the only answer to all their hungers, that government is the absolute source of all plenty, as opposed to economic & social answers attainable via their own inner drive, desire, & productive imaginations -- through their own entrepreneurship.

The Progressive Left has built themselves a mufti-generational class of government dependents, dependent on government for their every essential want & need, & all these politicians ask from this class of people as a mere token of their appreciation, is their vote to ensure the resources they promised them will continue endlessly.....using the fear of certain loss & hardship if that vote should happen to wane or wander.

I am so very sure that many of us have seen this with our very own eyes, & know it to be true, but rather than protest it, have come to accept it as an acceptable option in life. That these politicians have the distinct right to peddle their potions of poison unencumbered.

pssst..........I didn't use the word democrat once! See, it's not always about democrat or republican.

  • Last Edit: 2014-09-16, 00:01:03 by SmileyFaze

  • rjhowie
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #16
"That said, much of the poverty is due to a lack of knowledge, a lack of desire, a lack of self-worth, & lack of self-esteem."

Now what a load of codswallop. You are part of the physche that always bangs the drum about how great your country is, hand on heart, wave the flag. If so brilliant why then does that city have hundreds of thousands of what you describe in your answer? Then go right across the nation and their are other towns suffering, tens of millions on food stamps and you have the nerve to say what you do?? If we were daft enough to believe your stance one wonders how in Heaven's name you can explain the vast armies of unemployed, a hundred thousand a year dumped from their homes, camps of the unemployed apearing (even in Silicon Valley!) and so on.

I am more concerned for the deprived than you damn well are and you will find some waffle to accommodate your warped view of your own land. This is 2014 in a civilised country and leaving aside even the politics therre is much to be concerned about outside of the cumfy zone. One cannot help but feel for the 700,000 plus in that shambles of a city. No water no sewage, threat of disease, etc. This is modern times in a modern place not the Third World Smiley. Many of the people there have lived in the city for ages but you act as if it is an exception while the national numbers also tell something else. But in this case such a concentration in one place is terrible and I do feel for them a great deal having always been a communality activist. Try and be in this instance more sensible for Detroit and less humbug.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #17
You seem to be so overwhelmingly consumed with big numbers RJ ....... The seem to scare you ..... try using percentages, they're smaller (less zeros for you to look at), & then you can compare them to other less populated places ..... say, like itty, bitty Scotland. 

2014 numbers......... USA = 6.1% Unemployed         Scotland = 6.4% Unemployed

Now, in raw numbers there are many more unemployed in the USA than in Scotland, so wut.....

Maybe 'cause we have a larger population, duh, but ole salt youse guys aint doin none too swift thar yaselves....

6.4% ...... A bloody disgrace!!!

It gets even more horrific    if you look at the Scottish Welfare Fund .... now those numbers are really scarey!  

If our numbers make you sick, geeez Louiese..   ..sure you really wanna defend yours R.J. MacDudder?

Go fer it!!
  • Last Edit: 2014-09-17, 03:08:43 by SmileyFaze

  • rjhowie
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #18
You are trying to sidestep the matter Smiley so come on now. Over 700,000 people in one city ina modern and meant to be civilised nation?? I find it difficult to understand that as such could not happen here and you are having trouble in smaller towns too. Equally, over 700,000 in one State too is another negative. So your thinking is that over the whole country nearly three quarters of a million doesn't count? Don't find that in it's very self very Christian or even concerning outwith that. How sad that you use that kind of thinking. I can also remember that New York City once nearly went bankrupt so the problem is not new but it has got worse.  For the city of Detroit is is a disaster and you would think the country was as I said a Third World nation.

What you take as a stance is thought provoking and the answer? Sad, sad.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • mjmsprt40
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
  • undocumented space alien
Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #19
I think the possibility has to exist that Detroit is becoming a ghost town. Other towns have become ghost towns when there was no reason for the town to continue to exist-- the railroads had been built, the mines petered out, cattle-ranching found better ground elsewhere and so on. Detroit is merely one of the latest and certainly the biggest to become a has-been city. Part of the "rust belt", and the manufacturing which once drove the economy has headed either to the Southern states or overseas-- manufacturing is what drove Detroit's economy since the automotive era started.

The jobs left. Upper and middle-class people left. Poor people leave when they can. What is left is what once was. That's how ghost towns get made.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

  • jax
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #20
The possibility exists, but it is fairly low. Ghost towns are generally (small) towns. Cities die too, but it is fairly rare. Even after wars and genocide and disaster they spring up again, sometimes a little to the side of the old city. Geographic logic create cities rather than a single industry, though it can be a sensitive time when a city transitions. Sometimes that industry has peculiar needs, and there is no other industry to take over, or the human or natural geography changes.

Detroit has gone far down, but I believe the odds are in its favour. If not, maybe Grand Rapids or Windsor will be the new Detroit?

Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #21
I came across this article about a possibly of a comeback.:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/detroit-trying-to-make-a-comeback/
Quote
Dan Gilbert already had a fortune from founding the mortgage company Quicken Loans. Now he stands to make even more by buying office buildings on the cheap in Detroit's economically depressed downtown and convincing tenants to move into them to help the ailing city. It's working, he tells Bob Simon, and for anyone who would say he's a greedy capitalist, his answer is he is essentially doing a lot of good for a city that's seen a lot of bad.


The silver lining is a lot of cheap land for capitalists such Gilbert who wish to take chance. It seems to be working so far.

Quote
After three years, when Gilbert moved his company's headquarters to downtown, the billionaire has managed to lure 90 major tenants in addition to his own workers. Using more than a billion dollars of his own, he has revitalized the downtown, buying buildings as cheap as the cost of one year's rent for a similar space in New York, refurbishing and then renting them to the likes of Chrysler and Twitter.


Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #22
I pulled this out of the CBS piece.
"Detroit trying to make a comeback
Developer buying real estate in a downtrodden Detroit says he is "doing well by doing good" in an effort to revitalize the city"

What the piece didn't mention is that everything that's being built on the riverfront is for very wealthy people who live in that area.

For the not-so-wealthy?

Nothing has changed in the neighborhood where my brother lives.

  • rjhowie
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #23
Well it was time that something was made an effort on but ast the same time it is probably still aminority prject in the general face of things in the lower neighbourhoods. Sad that a city should go the way it has and large numbers of people with not even a basic life thing like awater supply because they cannot afford it.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Can Detroit get any worse?
Reply #24
It's not as bad as it might look.

But in Flint, Michigan, things are looking bleak. This is a bottle of Flint water.