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Topic: The government is the freaking dragon. (Read 5299 times)

  • OakdaleFTL
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The government is the freaking dragon.
The FCC (the U.S. Federal Communications Commission) has approved -by a partisan majority of 3 to 2- the (presumably desirable) Net Neutrality rules (not yet released to the public...) to regulate ISPs -and, of course, other "players"- to ensure a free and open internet... (see here, for instance) by bureaucratic interference, based upon the rules meant to constrain the government-granted monopoly to AT&T in the late 30's.

I am eager to read the "final" 317 pages "agreed to" by this commission, and look forward to the court cases it prompts. (Not to mention, because I don't believe such will be forthcoming, the congressional backlash and remedy...sad to say). I'd like to read it because I might be able to deconstruct its purpose -- and argue against such.
(Yes, I think I know what it is...)

My main point here is to highlight the perennial question: What warrants and justifies government regulation? And when and why should such be accepted or promulgated, absent irremediable harms?

Put more simply: If it ain't broke, why "fix" it?

Other thoughts...?
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • Belfrager
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Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #1
If it ain't broke, why "fix" it?

The Triumph of technocrats, bureaucrats and other rats. They need to be fed and they feed on us.
A matter of attitude.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #2
I agree, Belfrager.

Buckle up, everyone: We're in for a bumpy ride!
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • mjmsprt40
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  • Global Moderator
  • undocumented space alien
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #3
I'm amused by the other side. AT&T and Verizon arguing that the rule is archaic, 1930s and so on--- :jester:.

Now, seriously. Left to their own devices, AT&T and the telcos in general have to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into the modern age. If they had had their way--- say, if AT&T hadn't been broken up several years back-- right now you'd be lucky to have touch-tone phones, we'd still all have landlines as our ONLY phones, and the Internet as we know it---- fergidaboudit, it wouldna happened the way it is today. It would still be largely the big universities and the military, and then only because they have the capacity to set up their own system.

I think this because of the glacial speed which AT&T spreads U-Verse here. Comcast has had something much faster for a loooong time,  AT&T can only be dragged into getting U-Verse into the neighborhoods and when you finally DO get it---- it's just not as fast as Comcast's offering. If AT&T didn't have to compete with Comcast at all--- say, if cable companies couldn't offer phone service--- well, I think you can figure it out.

So, telcos---- tell me AGAIN about how the FCC rules are archaic. It's YOU who want to return us to 1960s technology--- let's face it, upgrading equipment to 2015 standards is expensive, and if you don't have to do it--- say, by forcing a two or three tiered plan that gives some "high speed" while forcing others to dial-up speeds--- you save money on infrastructure.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #4
What warrants and justifies government regulation?

The Koch brothers and friends.

The title should be The Koch brothers are the freaking dragoons.

  • ensbb3
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Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #5
What warrants and justifies government regulation? And when and why should such be accepted or promulgated, absent irremediable harms?


It reestablished your rights to your own device. Regulations that were in limbo for awhile. Your right to ad block or modify your own device had expired and it wasn't sure to come back. Secondly it established ISPs as telecommunication providers and protects them from price gouging from the likes of AT&T trying prevent expansion of better services across their infrastructure (poles).  

Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #6
t reestablished your rights to your own device. Regulations that were in limbo for awhile. Your right to ad block or modify your own device had expired and it wasn't sure to come back. Secondly it established ISPs as telecommunication providers and protects them from price gouging from the likes of AT&T trying prevent expansion of better services across their infrastructure (poles).

And from undermining the information-based economy by deliberately slowing access to network nodes, if not outright blocking them. It's almost insane to be favor of losing network neutrality unless one is dogmatically opposed to all regulation (It's equally crazy to be in favor of all regulation.)

This is a good thing for the economy, the consumer, and the ISP themselves The ISPs use each other's wires so without network neutrality Comcast can slow down access for At&T's customers and vice/versa. That means the ISP's would have to spend more, not less on their own infrastructure to the tune of billions of dollars. I guarantee the actual tech people at the providers are secretly cheering. The old, technologically ignorant men in charge need to go away like the rest of the dinosaurs so new people that actually know what they're the boss of can take over.

I repeat, it's almost insane to oppose network neutrality. What I've said barely scratches the surface of the problems with what the dinosaurs in charge wanted.

  • mjmsprt40
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  • Global Moderator
  • undocumented space alien
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #7
Given what I've seen so far, the dinosaurs in charge want it to be 1960 again. The Princess phone was only just coming out, Touch-tone could only be had in select areas, and Ma Bell decided the pace of technological upgrade. The incredibly heavy bakelite phone was good enough for Grandpa, it should be good enough for you.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

  • Frenzie
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  • Administrator
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #8
The incredibly heavy bakelite phone was good enough for Grandpa, it should be good enough for you.

I quite like the look of bakelite, although I'm only familiar with it from the '20s and '30s.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #9
A prediction: When this move by the FCC is rejected by the Supreme Court, Charles River Bridge v. Warren Bridge 36 U.S. 420 (1837) will figure prominently!
All the elements are there...
  • Last Edit: 2015-03-01, 07:19:07 by OakdaleFTL
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #10
This isn't about stopping the ISP from making internal improvements. I know some Republican politicians talk it up as "internet fast lanes" but that not really what will happen. Because of ISPs being able to control access speed to "hops" along on a service requests route to it's destination, at best it will create slow and less slow lanes. In so doing, loss of network neutrality will cripple the internet and the information economy.

This the scenario we're looking at:  The service request from an AT&T IP address must cross fibers owned By Comcast. Comcast notes the origin of the traffic and deliberately slows it and does the same for all other non-Comcast traffic. The other providers behave the same way. The result is not that you can more for better service, but that you pay more for service that is slower than what you have now (regardless of the ISP's advertised speed.)

Perhaps the ISPs can work out an agreement that AT&T pays Comcast a certain amount to carry it's traffic and vice/versa. Even that would be idiocy, since amount of money being exchanged would be pretty much a wash. I give you a hundred bucks and you give me a hundred bucks and neither of us profits and the whole exercise is pointless. However, that would give the ISPs an excuse to raise prices. Onto the information economy. Pre-Google Youtube could exist and provide decent speeds because of network neutrality. Netflix the same. However, future new innovations such as those would not be able to afford what AT&T and Comcast can. Therefore, paradigm shifting new technologies are smothered in their crib which what AT&T and Comcast want. Now what does that do to the future economy?

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #11
Sang, you assume everyone else is like you... :) (That whole "The service request from an AT&T IP address must cross fibers owned By Comcast. [Why the capitalization of "By"?] Comcast notes the origin of the traffic and deliberately slows it and does the same for all other non-Comcast traffic. The other providers behave the same way. The result is not that you can more for better service, but that you pay more for service that is slower than what you have now (regardless of the ISP's advertised speed.)"
[You know, this is your fantasy world-view, right? :)]
Not everyone -indeed, hardly anyone hereabouts- is as venal or mercenary as you...think they are. (Unless you mean your state's Senate Minority Leader.) Your view of your fellow citizens is what I'd expect...
You think they're like you, too. Kiddo, they're not.

Netflix did quite well, frequently sucking up 50% of local bandwidth... (You're okay with that?) They were throttled down and given a choice: Pay for more bandwidth or build their own dedicated servers... (You remember what happened, right? :) )
Sang, you always seem to want "free stuff" and never seem to understand why it isn't readily available!

(I'm sure -as per your predictions- your blog has "disappeared"... :) )

Maybe the government should provide internet service! Cut out those pesky middlemen. Just tax everyone and ... provide. Don't you think that would work well? :)

You just want free stuff, it seems to me. And you still manage to create incoherence, even in a simple text post: Trust me, Sang, no government regulation will ever make you seem informed or coherent; it's just not possible.
Yet you want to limit or destroy what already gives you free stuff...
----------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sure you have something erudite, to say about the legal issues...
I'll wait.
  • Last Edit: 2015-03-01, 10:11:10 by OakdaleFTL
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #12
I can't even describe how networks work without you resorting to personal attacks. That says far more about you than me. It does give me hope that only old men want ISPs to be able to censor out competing content in favor of their own offerings (AOL style), dial own  if not outright block speech they don't like, cripple the internet infrastructure and therefore the future and to some extent the current economy. Fine, charge Netflix more I'll pay more for that service (the opposite of demanding "free stuff" ); the effects of network neutrality loss extend far beyond streaming movies and I'll be anything Netflix is just the strawman.
  • Last Edit: 2015-03-01, 11:10:50 by Sanguinemoon

  • ensbb3
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Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #13
I can't even describe how networks work without you resorting to personal attacks.

Fox News Syndrome.

It's pretty clear he has no idea what it's about therefore it must be unnecessary tinkering by The Government.

  • mjmsprt40
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  • Global Moderator
  • undocumented space alien
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #14
Sang might-- or might not-- be thinking the big telcos operate the same way he does. I have no idea about that.

I've been actually watching the way these big telcos and cable companies work, and----- the fact that we have things as good as we do now is through no fault of the telcos. They would gladly have us all on dial-up service, if we were lucky enough to have service--- if they had their way. This is one time when government regulation actually serves, rather than hinders, the general public.

Breaking up AT&T all those years ago actually made today's Internet even possible. Left to their own devices, and with absolutely no competition, AT&T could set the pace for innovation at the glacially slow pace they seemed to favor. I can't imagine that Ma Bell, with the unrestricted monopoly that Ma Bell once enjoyed, would have anything even remotely resembling U-Verse today. You'd get dial-up, and really special customers might get DSL and--- that would be about it. Streaming media? You'd have about as much of a chance of having that as we do of having working transporter beams today. You-Tube would be impossible. Heck, most digital media would be hobbyist applications for the very wealthy, and then not terribly good. This computer I'm typing on right now? Forget about it.

Anytime the telcos want to talk of dinosaurs, they need to look in the mirror.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

  • Belfrager
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Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #15
I've been actually watching the way these big telcos and cable companies work,

Have you also been watching how 80% of internet's physical nodes are located or controlled by your country despite the complains from all the world?

And they speak about "neutrality"...
A matter of attitude.

  • mjmsprt40
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  • Global Moderator
  • undocumented space alien
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #16

I've been actually watching the way these big telcos and cable companies work,

Have you also been watching how 80% of internet's physical nodes are located or controlled by your country despite the complains from all the world?

And they speak about "neutrality"...


Is anybody here saying the dinosaur is dead? Actually, in other parts of the world I understand the speeds we here in the US consider "fast" would be regarded as almost painfully slow. So--- the rest of the world has done wonders with 20%, and I can only imagine it's some idea of US security/we invented it/copyright/patents and I don't know what all else slowing things down about getting more physical nodes online elsewhere in the world.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

  • Belfrager
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #17
So--- the rest of the world has done wonders with 20%, and I can only imagine it's some idea of US security/we invented it/copyright/patents and I don't know what all else slowing things down about getting more physical nodes online elsewhere in the world.

I suppose you have low velocities (I also do but I'm in mobile connection) just because your infrastructures sucks.
In other words, too much capitalism and too less public benefit.
A matter of attitude.

Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #18
Sang might-- or might not-- be thinking the big telcos operate the same way he does.

If they operated the same way I do, they'd think about the damage losing neutrality would do to the infrastructure and the fact this action would hurt themselves and their customers. When I say "free". I mean freedom, not "free beer." In the wrong hands, the ability to throttle access to certain sites is a powerful tool for censorship and invasion of privacy. What net neutrality does is protect against such abuses. Giving the ISPs the ability to reduce bandwidth to certain traffic is taking unnecessary chances with network integrity, stifling out  start ups that could grow into the key technology and censorship. This is why sudden talk of "internet fast lanes" is so alarming. Unless the network capacity is upgraded considerably, it translates into content the providers want their customers to see gets the fastlane, other content gets degraded speeds and that's censorship.

  • Macallan
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  • Administrator
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #19

I've been actually watching the way these big telcos and cable companies work,

Have you also been watching how 80% of internet's physical nodes are located or controlled by your country despite the complains from all the world?

I don't believe that. 80% of all IPv4 addresses - sure, because in the early days they handed huge chunks of address space to just a few companies. But not 80% of all  physical nodes. At least not anymore.

  • Belfrager
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Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #20
But not 80% of all  physical nodes. At least not anymore.

That's what one can read from many different sources, who knows.... One thing it's for sure, EU keeps on insisting about it and the only answer they got from the USA it's no cooperation at all.

Are you still in the US? You could count the nodes for us... and disconnect them. :)
A matter of attitude.

  • Jochie
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Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #21


I've been actually watching the way these big telcos and cable companies work,

Have you also been watching how 80% of internet's physical nodes are located or controlled by your country despite the complains from all the world?

And they speak about "neutrality"...


Is anybody here saying the dinosaur is dead? Actually, in other parts of the world I understand the speeds we here in the US consider "fast" would be regarded as almost painfully slow. So--- the rest of the world has done wonders with 20%, and I can only imagine it's some idea of US security/we invented it/copyright/patents and I don't know what all else slowing things down about getting more physical nodes online elsewhere in the world.
And at usually 1/3 the cost to the consumer.

Here's an interesting article on how net neutrality affected the Dutch
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/27/business/dutch-offer-preview-of-net-neutrality.html
I don't know how accurate it is.

Quote
As the United States moves to regulate broadband Internet service as a public utility, the Netherlands offers a rare case study of what could await American consumers and companies. The Netherlands was the second country in the world to adopt so-called open Internet rules, after Chile.
...
As with the American plan, Dutch carriers cannot discriminate among types of content, say by putting the brakes on data-hungry services like movie streaming. Nor can they charge extra for faster speeds and more reliable connections to the Internet's pipelines, which could give deep-pocketed technology companies an advantage over fledgling start-ups.
...
Consumers have not cried foul en masse over the costs. Dutch consumer groups say cellphone and cable packages in the last two years have remained relatively stable, with contracts priced at as little as $25 a month for the ability to stream online content. The average cellphone contract in the Netherlands is about one-third the price of an equivalent plan in the United States.

Sophie van Haasen, 31, a social worker, uses her mobile data package to stream music online through her Spotify account, and she said she was thinking about signing up for Netflix, mostly to watch the series "House of Cards." She pays about $35 a month for her cellphone, and $40 for home broadband.

Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #22
More from the article:

Quote
THE HAGUE -- When Bruno Leenders takes the 50-minute train ride to Amsterdam, he likes to stream blues and funk music through his smartphone. At home, Mr. Leenders, a Dutch technology consultant, watches Steven Seagal action movies on Netflix. Between meetings, he dashes off a few emails.

Mr. Leenders's digital life has not changed all that much in the two years since the Netherlands started demanding that Internet providers treat all traffic equally, the same sort of rules that the United States adopted on Thursday.

Of course not. Net Neutrality is how it's always been as part of broadband business ethics. Allow some of the premium deals mentioned in the article, but DO NOT give the ISPs carte blanche to start prioritizing traffic, which is the real concern.

  • Frenzie
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  • Administrator
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #23
Actually, in other parts of the world I understand the speeds we here in the US consider "fast" would be regarded as almost painfully slow.

There's a resource that claims to have some data.

US: http://www.netindex.com/download/2,1/United-States/
Antwerp: http://www.netindex.com/download/4,10547/Antwerpen/

Both average at around 33/34 Mbps, which sounds surprisingly similar. On the other hand, in the Netherlands speeds up to 200/200 over fiber are no longer uncommon (albeit on the flipside in Belgium you're more likely to have at least a 30 Mbit download). Hence I suppose why the Netherlands shows up as 47 Mbit on their map. Like I said though, I believe that while the Dutch average might be higher, the average in Belgium is more representative of the median.

My Internet speed is currently 50/4. It used to be 70/2.5, but the subscription changed. The modem actually synced at 70/6 when I last checked, meaning that's the maximum speed I could get over VDSL if I paid almost twice as much. Over cable a slightly higher speed might be possible, but not for less money and besides the cable company has horrid policies.

  • Belfrager
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Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #24
Don't get too much used to internet. It will be disconnected some day.
A matter of attitude.