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Which

  • 21st century architecture is better than earlier architecture
    2 (66.7%)
  • 21st century architecture is worse than earlier architecture
    1 (33.3%)
  • beer is better than either
    0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Topic: 21st century architecture (Read 21188 times)

  • jax
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21st century architecture
Buildings say a lot about the builders and the people who elect to use them. What buildings of this century would you like to highlight and why? Which are the best? Which are the worst? Which are interesting, which are boring? Which ones probably wouldn't be made before or after? How will they affect the neighbourhood, how would they age?

What can we say about current architecture? What should we be quiet about? What are the hopes and fears?

  • jax
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Re: 21st century architecture
Reply #200
It's always fun to come to an interpretation based on your knowledge of other languages.

Quote from: Google Translate (wow, pretty good)
The architect has previously built another Secret Sauna, which is widely used in a secret location in the Stockholm archipelago.

Quote from: Original
Arkitekten har tidigare byggt en annan så kallad "Secret Sauna", som finns och används flitigt på en hemlig plats i Stockholms skärgård.

De architect heeft eerder[1]

Here there is a discrepancy between my Norwegian and Swedish. Swedish tidig(are) is Norwegian tidlig(ere), early (earlier). To my ears tidig (without the "L") would be something timely or in time, not something early. The word utidig (un-timely) means inappropriate in modern Norwegian. Looking it up, tidig supposedly also has meanings like fresh, quick, nice, something presumably dialectal I never heard of before now. 



gebouwd[2] 
cognate, originally, with buildByggnad is building. Swedish bo, to dwell, is also related

 een andere so-called[3]
kalla of course means to name something/someone. Not in Dutch?


"Secret Sauna," som finns[4]
Yes, the original root is (something) found, has a straight correspondence with the English word exist

aanwenden[5] vlijtigt[6]Marked of German and Low German origin respectively. Flitig has the primary sense of diligent(ly), but here used a lot, all the time.

 een heimelijke plaats[7]From Norse heimiligr, originally "home-ly", domestic, then private, then secret. 

 in Stockholms schiergaarde[8]
-gård is cognate to a lot of stuff, like yard, or like Russian -gorod (city), or castle, or farm, or building. Skär too has a wide range and PIE roots, here it seems to have come from sker, a Norse word for small island or holm, loose English cognates skerry and even shore, and possibly related PIE *sker (cut), from which another skär, meaning cliff, also has arisen as well as the Swedish word for cutting. Finally another branch is related to shimmer or shine. Uniquely among Scandinavian languages Swedish skär also means pink, but that is a fairly modern meaning, a couple hundred years, coming from French coleur de chair. In other words this word for pink actually means "meat coloured", making it a whole lot less romantic.
tijdig=on time, tijdiger=more on time, but in this case earlier or previously
looks more like a cognate with Dutch buigen (bend) or gebogen (bent), or maybe a cognate with English buy
yeah, not Dutch, but that's kind of my point here :P Dutch, English, and German all help to make sense of it.
clearly finns must be related to English find and Dutch vinden
aanwenden=use
vlijtig = industrious, in this case probably more like industrious→busy→being used but that's not Dutch
a secret place
a near yard/orchard... not actually a word in Dutch, mind you. I guess the group of islands sense of archipelago means something like "an almost (regular, not divided by sea) domain". Note that a schiereiland (a near island) is a peninsula. Interestingly, there are actually some early 18th century German attestations of the word Schiergaard, e.g., here.

Quote
Bei Bergen konnte inmitten der Schiergaard-Inseln eine sehr günstige Stelle zum Fange von Travisia gefunden werden

"At Bergen you could find a very favorable spot to catch Travisia(???) in the middle of the Schiergaard islands." Is it actually a placename in Norway or just a German misinterpretation?

  • Frenzie
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Re: 21st century architecture
Reply #201
kalla of course means to name something/someone. Not in Dutch?
Kallen used to exist as a verb back in Middle Dutch, but nowadays in the standard language only the pejorative noun kal remains (silly babbling), as well as the derived verb raaskallen (delirious driveling). According to the 1917 entry in the WNT the verb kallen still exists regionally in the positive/neutral sense (of speaking/talking), which is still true in modern-day Flanders in 2017. The Middle Dutch dictionary doesn't list any sense of "naming", only speaking, notifying, telling, uttering and babbling.

Note that I'm using Flanders in the more historical/linguistic meaning, referring to the County of Flanders (or the present-day provinces of West and East Flanders). Here in Antwerp the Antwerpish/Brabantic equivalent is klappen. Maybe it has something to do with the clapping motion of a jaw while talking. Standard Dutch has spreken (cf. German sprechen) and praten. Funnily enough, the English verb prate/prattle has taken on the same pejorative meaning of excessive babbling as kallen has in Dutch.
  • Last Edit: 2017-05-19, 13:55:31 by Frenzie

  • jax
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Re: 21st century architecture
Reply #202
You got känna, to know? It has dropped out English, except Scottish ken. 

  • Frenzie
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Re: 21st century architecture
Reply #203
Yes, kennen is regular Dutch (and German). We have the distinction between kennen and weten (German wissen), absent from English. Same as French connaitre and savoir.

  • ersi
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Re: 21st century architecture
Reply #204
Sent.
Queued up on the e-reader. Thanks :up:

Edit: What are you guys talking about? Have you considered the word snacka? And it doesn't mean to have a snack, even though "ha litet snack" is definitely a thing.
  • Last Edit: 2017-05-19, 16:03:04 by ersi

  • jax
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Re: 21st century architecture
Reply #205
Words for speaking or talking seem well shared among the Germanic languages, but vary widely in their connotations.

English tale or talk, Dutch taal, Swedish tal(a), Norwegian tale seem connected with telling a story or holding a speech

Spreken, sprechen, speak, seems connected with speaking, we don't have much in Scandinavian, but we have the noun språk/sprog (language).  

English say, German sagen, Dutch zaggen, Swedish säga, Danish sige, Norwegian si seems to mean utter.

Dutch praten, English prate, Swedish prata, Dan/Norw prate seems to informal talk and Low German origin

Swedish snacka, Norwegian snakke, have a conversation, seems to come from Dutch (snappy) remark, and so does English snack.



  • Frenzie
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Re: 21st century architecture
Reply #206
English say, German sagen, Dutch zaggen, Swedish säga, Danish sige, Norwegian si seems to mean utter.
That's zeggen in Dutch. :P

Swedish snacka, Norwegian snakke, have a conversation, seems to come from Dutch (snappy) remark, and so does English snack.
Huh, I don't recall having come across that while reading Middle Dutch texts. Here's the entry in the Middle Dutch dictionary. In Modern Dutch snakken means something like to crave or to desire intently, e.g., Romeo snakt naar Julia. I suppose you could also translate that as "Romeo has an appetite for Juliette" if you wish to stick closer to the English meaning of snack. The Middle Dutch dictionary says that snakken and snappen are practically the same word in etymology and meaning.

According to the book Verholen verwanten (hidden relatives, i.e., cognates that aren't obvious) that I acquired recently, etymologically snatch is the same verb as snakken. The Random House Dictionary supports this: "1175-1225; Middle English snacche (noun), snacchen (v.) < ?; cognate with Middle Dutch snacken."

Many of the hidden relatives aren't particularly hidden if you have some basic linguistic knowledge of English/Germanic sound changes as well as Middle Dutch and Middle English, but the fact that given the time I could also have compiled the book shouldn't be taken as disparagement. It's a fun little reference work that primarily combines the knowledge of the Van Dale etymological dictionary and the OED, but many others as well.

  • jax
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Re: 21st century architecture
Reply #207
Kind of in that vein, the 21st century architecture of Google Translate. It translates 
Quote
Die volkswirtschaftslehre (auch Nationalökonomie, Wirtschaftliche Staatswissenschaften, oder Sozialökonomie, kurz VWL) ist ein Teilgebiet der Wirtschaftswissenschaft
into 
Quote
The economics of economics (including economics, economics, economics, economics) is a part of economics

  • Frenzie
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Re: 21st century architecture
Reply #208
 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

To be fair, that is essentially what it says even if it is stylistically awkward. Volkswirtschaftslehre means something like "common economics" or "common science [or teachings] of economics"[1] and the rest is nothing but synonyms (national economics, political economics, social economics) that all mean economics affecting society in the broader sense. For most intents and purposes you'd just call that economics. In many contexts that would either be a very good or quite simply the best translation.

However, you confused Google Translate by typoing Volkswirtschaftslehre. In German nouns are capitalized. Fixing it up seems to improve the translation ever so slightly.

Quote
Die Volkswirtschaftslehre (auch Nationalökonomie, Wirtschaftliche Staatswissenschaften, oder Sozialökonomie, kurz VWL) ist ein Teilgebiet der Wirtschaftswissenschaft.

Quote
The economics of economics (including economics, economics, economics, social economics, economics) is a sub-area of economics.
Not economics of economics, obviously.

  • ersi
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Re: 21st century architecture
Reply #209
To be fair, that is essentially what it says even if it is stylistically awkward. Volkswirtschaftslehre means something like "common economics" or "common science [or teachings] of economics" and the rest is nothing but synonyms...
When you say plain "economics", you are not saying much, not distinguishing anything, such as, say, microeconomics (economics of a single entreprise) from macroeconomics. In contrast, Volkswirtschaftslehre, Nationalökonomie etc. is rather specific. It's taking stock of the economy of a country, i.e. aiming at a sensible definition and calculation of GDP. "Volks" or "National" etc. may look like poor words for "of a country" but that's the meaning.

  • Frenzie
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Re: 21st century architecture
Reply #210
When you say plain "economics", you are not saying much, not distinguishing anything, such as, say, microeconomics (economics of a single entreprise) from macroeconomics.
@krake can correct me if I'm wrong, but indeed you aren't. With those German words you're talking about the whole of economic theory (micro, macro, econometrics, international/political, institutional). Or in English, just plain old economics. The other branch of economics is something like business economics or applied economics and in German this distinction happens to be made more systematically. But being more precise (albeit not in the way you'd think) doesn't necessarily make for a good translation. It can just as easily be awkward and pedantic.

  • ersi
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Re: 21st century architecture
Reply #211
Quote
Die Volkswirtschaftslehre (auch Nationalökonomie, Wirtschaftliche Staatswissenschaften, oder Sozialökonomie, kurz VWL) ist ein Teilgebiet der Wirtschaftswissenschaft.
Isn't it directly deducible here that

- Wirtschaft = economy
- Wirtschaftswissenschaft = economics = science about economy
- Volkswirtschaftslehre is something more specified compared to Wirtschaftswissenschaft because the former is (said to be) the subset of the latter, not the other way round

???

Plus it so happens that the terminology in Estonian is as crappy as in German because German was the role model for the terminology. When talking about a country's economy (i.e. aspects of GDP), the scientists say a word that translates like "people's householding" which is plain stupid. It can, with some stretch, be understood when talking about one's own country, but not when talking about some other country.

  • krake
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Re: 21st century architecture
Reply #212
Non Germans might get confused by compound nouns and their exact contextual meaning.
However compound nouns can give more granulated forms of a term. ;)

Wirtschaftslehre (Wirtschaft = economy + Lehre = study) - economics/business studies
Volkswirtschafslehre (Volk = nation + Wirtschaft = economy + Lehre = science/study) - the same as the above but related to a country

A country's economy = Volkswirtschaft (Volk + Wirtschaft)
GDP = BIP (abreviation for Bruttoinlandsprodukt which is another compound noun: Brutto = gross + Inland = domestic + Produkt = product)

  • Frenzie
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Re: 21st century architecture
Reply #213
- Volkswirtschaftslehre is something more specified compared to Wirtschaftswissenschaft because the former is (said to be) the subset of the latter, not the other way round
It's a subset of sorts but I think it would be more accurate to call it the core of economics. Hence why I calqued it as common economics (from Dutch algemene economie): the theoretical common overlapping framework of economics. In Dutch and English that's what you mean when you say "economics" without any further specification (as distinct from, e.g., business economics, which is more or less the Dutch/German way of saying applied economics[1]).

The term economics replaced "political economy," as in the study of the economies of political entities, which includes but is not limited to nation states. In German the term political/national economy was replaced by Volkswirtschaftslehre in the Weimar Republic. I suspect that both you and @krake are basically confused by English here, not by German.

@krake Economics doesn't include business studies in that way in English insofar as English even has our kind of business studies at all. What you see in this explanation of a Bachelor of Economics (Bachelor Volkswirtschaftslehre) is what "economics" means in English:
Die Volkswirtschaftslehre beschäftigt sich mit der Frage, wie die Gesellschaft mit ihren knappen Ressourcen umgeht. Zunächst werden die Entscheidungen der einzelnen Wirtschaftseinheiten, d.h. der Haushalte und der Unternehmen analysiert. In einem nächsten Schritt wird untersucht, wie diese Vielzahl von Entscheidungen miteinander koordiniert wird und ob das Ergebnis aus gesamtwirtschaftlicher Sicht wünschenswert ist. Schliesslich werden die sich daraus ergebenden wirtschaftspolitischen Massnahmen, insbesondere im Hinblick auf Innovation, Wachstum, Arbeitslosigkeit und Inflation, untersucht.

Auf Grund der breit gefächerten Ausbildung gehören die Volkswirte eher zu den Generalisten unter den Studienabgänger/innen. Ihre Beschäftigungssituation erweist sich als überdurchschnittlich gut. Der Übergang vom Studium zum Beruf verläuft in der Regel reibungslos. Der Anteil der Arbeitsuchenden mit einem Abschluss in Wirtschaftswissenschaften liegt traditionsgemäss weit unter dem der Stellensuchenden anderer Studienrichtungen.
Wikipedia would have you believe it's "business administration" but Flemish universities tell me it's much more theoretically inclined than the Anglo-Saxon semi-equivalent.

  • krake
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Re: 21st century architecture
Reply #214
In German the term political/national economy was replaced by Volkswirtschaftslehre in the Weimar Republic.
Instead of "Volkswirtschaft" you can also say "Nationalökonomie". It means the same, even today. :)
"Volkswirtschaftslehre" always relates to a "Volkswirtschaft". E.g. die deutsche Volkswirtschaft, die chinesische Volkswirtschaft, ... or to "Volkswirtschaften" (verschiedener Staaten wie die der USA oder China).

@krake Economics doesn't include business studies in that way in English insofar as English even has our kind of business studies at all. What you see in this explanation of a Bachelor of Economics (Bachelor Volkswirtschaftslehre) is what "economics" means in English:
http://www.wiso.unibe.ch/studium/studienprogramme/bachelor_volkswirtschaftslehre/index_ger.html
If "economics" is the English term for the German "Volkswirtschaftslehre", so be it. Wonder then if there is an English term for "Wirtschaftslehre"?
Keep in mind that "Volkswirtschaftslehre" and "Wirtschaftslehre" doesn't mean the same in German.
It seems that in English there is no appropiate term delimiting the two. Don't blame me for it. :)
I was only trying to translate the different German terms for better understanding.

After all it seems that GoogleTranslate gives the best translation considering the available options in English for German terms. :lol:

  • ersi
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Re: 21st century architecture
Reply #215
I suspect that both you and @krake are basically confused by English here, not by German.
I'd say that English manages to be even more confusing in this case than German.

German compounding is sane enough in this specific case, even though "Volks-" is the wrong word for the purpose for which it's being employed and direct translation from German to Estonian (which happens to be how this term got into Estonian universities) makes it worse, but be that as it may, "political economy" is worse than that and "common economics" is just as good as "economics" with nothing to specify it.

  • Frenzie
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Re: 21st century architecture
Reply #216
Instead of "Volkswirtschaft" you can also say "Nationalökonomie". It means the same, even today.  :)
"Volkswirtschaftslehre" always relates to a "Volkswirtschaft". E.g. die deutsche Volkswirtschaft, die chinesische Volkswirtschaft, ... or to "Volkswirtschaften" (verschiedener Staaten wie die der USA oder China).
In that case my understanding could be slightly wrong, but the Wikipedia page you linked doesn't seem to disagree with my understanding of the matter.

According to Dutch Wikipedia "economics" can be roughly divided into:

  • economics (in the English meaning, i.e., the common core of economics which includes micro, macro, econometrics, etc., all the stuff the German Wikipedia page for Volkswirtschaftslehre also speaks of)
  • business economics
  • fiscal economics
  • commercial economics

In English the latter three would be subsets of applied economics. Actually I'm not sure that they aren't in Dutch. In any case economics typically means the common core of economics and it's not really used as as superset together with applied economics. Neither Dutch nor English systematically distinguish between the science of economics in a wider sense and the common core of economics, but in English I'm not even sure if there really is a standard way to refer to this distinction.

German Wikipedia seems to go by a very similar distinction as Dutch, namely "Im deutschen Sprachraum wird die Wirtschaftswissenschaft üblicherweise in die Bereiche Betriebswirtschaftslehre (BWL) und Volkswirtschaftslehre (VWL, Nationalökonomie) unterteilt."

Quote from: ersi
"common economics" is just as good as "economics" with nothing to specify it.
That's Dutch, not English. Sorry if I caused any confusion. :) But it does refer to the same distinction as in German as far as I can tell. It might seem odd to say that common economics is not systematically distinguished from economics, but I'd say it's really no different than noting that the common housefly is not normally distinguished from the (house)fly. The word "common" basically just signifies that which we normally mean when we say x, which can be distinguished from the broader concept or category of super-x. It does make translation harder because that which Dutch or English speakers commonly mean by "economics" is not the same as German speakers. Too bad for the machines. :P

  • ersi
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Re: 21st century architecture
Reply #217
The word "common" basically just signifies that which we normally mean when we say x, which can be distinguished from the broader concept or category of super-x. It does make translation harder because that which Dutch or English speakers commonly mean by "economics" is not the same as German speakers. Too bad for the machines. :P
That's not how it works in science. In science you build terminology, concepts that relate to each other in fixed ways, specifically in the way scientists think reality works.

In this case, the distinction is economics broadly considered and then a subset of it. It's like in biology they give names to species. Names of species always have two parts. Bigger groups, such as families, have one part. Often a name of the species consists of "common" + family but the function of the compound is exactly the same no matter what stood there instead of "common".

To clarify the terms for the whole science (to other scientists), some people build ontologies. Biologists believe their taxonomy describes real-life ontology. Economists also arrange their terminology so as to make it an into an ontology. Yes, I have seen them do it. Funny when they try it with financial terms.

In that sort of system, something like "common economics" would not be that which people commonly mean when they speak about it. It would be about a specific spot in the ontology. When they fail to put "common" before it, it would be elsewhere in the ontology and the scientist would go nuts.

  • Frenzie
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Re: 21st century architecture
Reply #218
Fine, perhaps I should've translated it as general economics then -- which I just noticed is also what the University of Ghent does: https://www.ugent.be/eb/algemene-economie/en You can see what I illustrated there as well: "The department of General Economics is one of the nine departments in the Faculty of Economics and Business Administration of Ghent University." But such words like common or general do tend to reflect a honed definition of the "regular" meaning -- the biggest catch being that it might be the 19th century meaning while the language has otherwise moved on.

The nine departments are the following:

Quote
    General Economics
    Financial Economics
    Social Economics
    Accounting, Corporate Finance and Taxation
    Marketing
    Business Informatics and Operations Management
    Innovation, Entrepreneurship and Service Management
    Public Governance, Management and Finance
    Human Resource Management and Organizational Behaviour

Science may be international, but that doesn't mean it's entirely homogenized. In the English-speaking world those two generally just aren't grouped together like that. You've got the social behavioral science of economics and then you've got this separate commerce and business administration thing of which I'm not really sure how it's classified. Perhaps it's more vocational than the arts & sciences, even if it's university-level.

But anyway, we were talking about translation. I contended that a distinction commonly made by regular speakers of German often shouldn't be explicitly kept in English (or Dutch) unless it's important for some reason. Just like how you wouldn't constantly translate shade as shadow of a tree, shadow of a building, etc. unless it held some relevance. I would imagine that in a scientific text for shadeologists, it probably does. If you think all distinctions should be kept, then you're either a bad translator or a translator in a very specific niche. ;)

  • ersi
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Re: 21st century architecture
Reply #219
But such words like common or general do tend to reflect a honed definition of the "regular" meaning -- the biggest catch being that it might be the 19th century meaning while the language has otherwise moved on.
Language has moved on or life in general has moved on. Or the guy who authoritatively fixed the meaning in the 19th century did not make it relevant to life in the first place.

Science may be international, but that doesn't mean it's entirely homogenized. In the English-speaking world those two generally just aren't grouped together like that. You've got the social behavioral science of economics and then you've got this separate commerce and business administration thing of which I'm not really sure how it's classified. Perhaps it's more vocational than the arts & sciences, even if it's university-level.
Yes, the obvious problem with building ontologies from umbrella concepts is the failure to reflect cross-disciplinary stuff. A true ontology goes by distinctions that cannot be crossed.

  • Belfrager
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Re: 21st century architecture
Reply #220
Economics are not a science and even less commerce, business or administration.
And ontology belongs to the realm of pure philosophy - the knowledge of the Being, linguistics being a side a part sub-discipline.

What a confusion goes on those minds, the "virtues" of modern education for the youngsters.
A matter of attitude.