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Topic: The Problem with Atheism (Read 159355 times)

  • Frenzie
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The Problem with Atheism

  • jseaton2311
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #675
You are hardly the sunshine of atheist peace and happiness on these forums.

I have a caustic style (bad), get over it. 

And you don't mean the certain reckless country who actually used nuclear weapons?

I don't suppose you would like to entertain the thought that the use of atomic bombs in WWII could--in the end-- prove to be the deterrent that keeps us from using the extinction level bombs we have today?  (Not that anyone had that thought in mind at the time)  Fat Boy was 15 kilotons, today they are 15,000 kilotons.   :knight:  :cheers:
James J

  • ensbb3
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #676
What would you say?

Resistant diseases or genetic manipulation. In other words, science with the best of intentions. (It's always what you least expect, right?)

I was suggesting the radicals were way out of balance but it wasn't really supposed to be that tidy. Saying the US's existence isn't required may mess it back up. (No, that's not my wish.) China holds the promise of what future government could be. Given an evolution towards democracy. Policies to combat corruption or control religion wouldn't be so taboo inside a pseudo-communist state and the level of efficiency could be hard to compete with. Not a system I'd be eager to jump in to but the rewards in structure could make the rest of the world seem to be stuck in the dark ages by comparison.

  • Barulheira
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #677
Oversimplifying a bit, in the USA - and to some extent in Europe - the big problem of the world sums up as: religious differences.

Out here, the big problem is corruption - and the following advance of poverty. Religious and non-religious people are corrupt the same.

If somebody came out here to say "religious differences are the big problem of the world in the 21st century", the answer would be: "you must be kidding!".

9/11 shifted the focus too much.

  • jseaton2311
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #678
If somebody came out here to say "religious differences are the big problem of the world in the 21st century", the answer would be: "you must be kidding!".

Currently, religious differences are not the biggest problem facing the planet or any area thereof, including the volatile Middle East (I said nothing of the kind).  It simply has the very real potential for there to be no more problems, evermore, facing mankind.   :knight:  :cheers:
James J

  • Barulheira
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #679
It's clear now.
I was thinking about it. As far as I know, there is only one religion with genocidal trends. :right:

  • jseaton2311
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #680
 
China holds the promise of what future government could be. Given an evolution towards democracy. Policies to combat corruption or control religion wouldn't be so taboo inside a pseudo-communist state and the level of efficiency could be hard to compete with.

Too Hobbesian for me, I reckon.   :knight:  :cheers:
James J

  • ensbb3
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #681
A thought maybe worth debate. But I don't really know what you meant by that.

  • rjhowie
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #682
Well I will say that if China did become more democratic that would of course be a constructive thing and I do hope it rubs of on America.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #683
if China did become more democratic that would of course be a constructive thing and I do hope it rubs of on America
Let's hope they don't judge Scotland and the English language by your example...

The Chinese government will not likely accept religious freedom in our lifetime: The remnants of Confucianism are difficult enough to deal with. Any theology that would vie with the State will be suppressed -- of necessity!
Which is to say, democracy will -at best- be a weed that grows in their well-tended garden.

Perhaps one day it will be recognized as a beautiful flowing plant.
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #684
The Chinese government will not likely accept religious freedom in our lifetime: The remnants of Confucianism are difficult enough to deal with. Any theology that would vie with the State will be suppressed -- of necessity!

There are cracks in the Chinese edifice. If you don't trust me (I don't), ask a Uighur or the 70 million Christians.
http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21629218-rapid-spread-christianity-forcing-official-rethink-religion-cracks

Think Stalin, Hitler, Thutmose III. S**t has a way of happening.

  • rjhowie
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #685
You are heading for a polce Stae in the future or mind control Oakdale so they can practice well on you!

Meanwhile I must say that religion is active in China and that churches have been built. An interesting side to this is Hong Kong where The Boys' Brigade a church-based youth movement has reached 300 units and aiming for evn more. Started small under British rule but still expanding. In the rest of China there are of course rules and I came across an incident a couple of years ago wher a church was demolished as they had not got permission to build the thing!
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #686
Of course, you know that the ceding of Hong Kong back to China was a mistake...? :)
But if you'd not feel so bad about it: We ceded the Panama Canal back to Panama -- which is to say, China! So, you can laugh.
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • tt92
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #687

You are heading for a polce Stae in the future or mind control Oakdale so they can practice well on you!

Meanwhile I must say that religion is active in China and that churches have been built. An interesting side to this is Hong Kong where The Boys' Brigade a church-based youth movement has reached 300 units and aiming for evn more. Started small under British rule but still expanding. In the rest of China there are of course rules and I came across an incident a couple of years ago wher a church was demolished as they had not got permission to build the thing!

rj, you often start a post with "I must say."
Why must you say it? Are there voices in your head that command you to say it?Do you think you will be forgiven for writing drivel If you pass on the responsibility to supernatural promptings?
Just curious.
  • Last Edit: 2015-05-31, 07:02:56 by tt92

  • ersi
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #688

Of course, you know that the ceding of Hong Kong back to China was a mistake...? :)

Why and how?

Should Hong Kong have been returned to Taiwan instead? Or should it have been kept? What about this guy Kissinger who went to recognise mainland China over Taiwan?



But if you'd not feel so bad about it: We ceded the Panama Canal back to Panama -- which is to say, China! So, you can laugh.

Why can't imperialists simply keep their fingers off things? Stealing is not nice in private life, then why should it be okay in international politics?

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #689
Why and how?
Because Hong Kong under China's control will have to lose most of the liberty, political and economic, before its example "infects" the rest of the country... Repression and bureaucratization -with its tendency to corruption- are the two most obvious means available to China.
Do you "observe" that they won't be used? And ruthlessly, if it comes to that?
Why can't imperialists simply keep their fingers off things? Stealing [...]
For the same reasons any other designations can't... :) (Those that can keep their "fingers off" as you call it are feeble lotus eaters.) Do you think the people of Panama could have or would have built the canal?
Or do you merely think that the trade it facilitated was unnecessary?
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • ersi
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #690

Because Hong Kong under China's control will have to lose most of the liberty, political and economic, before its example "infects" the rest of the country... Repression and bureaucratization -with its tendency to corruption- are the two most obvious means available to China.

Granted.


Do you "observe" that they won't be used? And ruthlessly, if it comes to that?

Did you not observe that Hong Kong was used and China abused (ruthlessly, as in Opium Wars) when Hong Kong was colonised? China will be doing nothing different to Hong Kong, it's just that China will be doing it to herself, like a masochist with self-harm tendency. European empires (edit: and their offshoot U.S. ever since its independence) do it to both themselves and to everybody else - like bullying sado-masochists.  This is the difference, minor as it may seem.


(Those that can keep their "fingers off" as you call it are feeble lotus eaters.)

And this is why keeping fingers off is a bad idea? We shouldn't be like those feeble lotus eaters who don't steal, right?


Do you think the people of Panama could have or would have built the canal?
Or do you merely think that the trade it facilitated was unnecessary?

The canal is okay, when built the way that Panamans themselves also agree with. You don't have to colonise places to build canals.

Wait, you disagree with this. You are saying it is necessary to colonise because it facilitates trade. Then UK during the colonial high tide must be your ideal. Can't argue with someone else's ideals, a feeble lotus eater as I am.
  • Last Edit: 2015-06-01, 05:02:41 by ersi

Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #691
Can't argue with someone else's ideals, a feeble lotus eater as I am.

Forget about it, Ersi, forget about it.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #692
Hey, jseaton!
I recently re-read this:
Quote
We cannot neglect the training of men who will employ the weapons of the Technological war in actual combat; however, in the Technological War the pressing need is for strategy and strategic thought.

It is tempting to allow the scientist to dominate the field of strategic analysis and the management of the Technological War. He is the chief weapon in the war, and without him nothing could be accomplished. However, to give the scientist control of the process is an error of grave consequence.
The qualities that make a good scientist are not those that produce a good engineer, let alone a strategic analyst.
The scientist understands technology; indeed, he creates technology. However, he is often a specialist who is quite helpless outside of his own field. In general, he must be a specialist to make a reputation as a scientist, and without that reputation he will never achieve a position of management.There is a major difference in mental attitude between a scientist and a strategist. The scientist must deal with facts and scientific laws. By contrast, the strategist must deal with futures which cannot possibly be factual because the events have not occurred.The scientist deals with repetitive events and laws of nature; the strategist is virtually always confronted by a unique situation in which the opponent will try to do the unexpected. The strategist must always make decisions based on inadequate data; scientists must not jump to conclusions. The strategist's primary skill is to be able to reason like the opponent and stay ahead of him, while the primary skill of the scientist is to produce and package knowledge.
Just as men can be divided into athletes and non-athletes, they can be divided into scientists and
non-scientists.
But if a man is an athlete, he is not necessarily a good athlete; if he is a good one, he may only be good at baseball or boxing. Scientists, too, have very pronounced qualitative differences. There are broad distinctions between creative scientists, scientists who work best assistants and experimenters, and scientific administrators. Many a scientific reputation rests upon one particular discovery. Other reputations are derived from a long series of creative contributions. When we are talking about scientists it is quite important to keep these distinctions in mind.
But this is not the end of the story. The history of science is replete with examples of scientists who were grievously wrong. Scientists have believed firmly in weird theories and have instituted veritable inquisitions against nonbelievers. Scientists often refuse to accept evidence, and they sometimes go to rather comical lengths to defend their own theories.
There is no such thing as a fully rational scientist. There are only men who have scientific training, and this scientific training has not eliminated their emotions, hopes, and other human features as indeed it should not. The trouble is, however, that scientists are often inclined to transfer to themselves as individuals the objectivity of the scientific approach and to consider themselves to be far more objective than they are.
They tend to identify their brain with a computer and become emotional if the security of an established theory is threatened.

[emphasis added, and the paragraphing is my doing...]
(the source seems to be unavailable, now... Let me know if you'd want to read it.)


Your view of science seems to reject the mere fact that scientists are men... How do you counter this obvious deficiency in your arguments for "scientism" and atheism?
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • Belfrager
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #693
Your view of science seems to reject the mere fact that scientists are men... How do you counter this obvious deficiency in your arguments for "scientism" and atheism?

Was him an intelligent poster and you'll have a lot of problems with such "argument".
It's so bad that is better that you realize that it applies also to theists, including yourself. If rejecting being men, just men, is the sole reason that they can't be atheists why being men, just men, is the right reason to be theists?

Atheists are wrong not because their faith in Science, a construction of Man based on a gift of God - Reason.
  • Last Edit: 2015-06-04, 23:23:43 by Belfrager
A matter of attitude.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #694
I am not a theist, Belfrager...
I am a rationalist, which places my principles much closer to -say- the Catholic church than most Imams. (The various protesters don't offer anything of value, that I can see.) The object of my derision is not James himself... It is the anti-religious, who would make "Science" a new religion.
We don't need a new religion...
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • Belfrager
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #695
We don't need a new religion...

Yes... I think you're right.
A matter of attitude.

  • rjhowie
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #696
Now what do you know - I gave mention on Opera about the science lobby acting like a religion. Heavens, Oakdale touching the same base. Well nearly I remain a staunch Protestant Reformation bulwark...... :D
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • jseaton2311
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #697
Atheists are wrong not because their faith in Science, a construction of Man based on a gift of God - Reason.

Why is man's ability to reason only applicable in science and not religion? 

I am not a theist, Belfrager...
I am a rationalist, which places my principles much closer to -say- the Catholic church than most Imams. (The various protesters don't offer anything of value, that I can see.) The object of my derision is not James himself... It is the anti-religious, who would make "Science" a new religion.
We don't need a new religion...

If my enthusiasm for science runneth over, it is only because science gets the job done and answers the questions plaguing man since we came down from the trees (the historical evidence of which is etched in every cell of your body, Bel).  If I am going to pin the hopes of mankind on any one thing, it would be on science.  But not just science itself, it will be the triumph of science over religion (reality over fantasy), that will win the day.  Religion is no longer benign, it is a malignant cancer within mankind that needs to be eliminated for us to ever hope to live in peace, tranquility and prosperity.  Century after century after century, it's the same ol' crap--religious wars, innocent people dying and education being stifled.  Quite fittingly, education is the force by which religion will end and join the 'horse & buggy' in the museums.   :knight:  :cheers:
James J

  • Belfrager
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #698

Atheists are wrong not because their faith in Science, a construction of Man based on a gift of God - Reason.

Why is man's ability to reason only applicable in science and not religion? 
You have a very limited knowledge of religion jseaton, particularly Catholicism. Read Pope Benedict XVI, a man of reason much more than faith and one of the biggest intelectuals of our time.

Your idea of science as a monopoly of atheism is anedoctical. Probably, you have much more scientists that professes some religion than atheist ones.
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #699
I think the numbers bear out your suspicion, Belfrager.

Personally, I care what some scientists have to say about Pluto and dark matter just so long as their fields aren't biology or geology.

I don't care what Pope Francis has to say about almost anything. Almost but not everything.

You might take a look at this http://www.newscientist.com/special/god
and then at the below.
http://www.religionnews.com
Quote
Ecklund, director of Rice University's Religion and Public Life Program, presented preliminary results of the study, "Religious Understandings of Science," based on a survey of 10,000 U.S. adults including scientists, evangelical Protestants and the general public including 300 in-depth interviews with Christians (more than 140 of whom were evangelicals) Jews and Muslims.

Among the findings:

Nearly 36 percent of scientists have no doubt about God's existence
18 percent of scientists attended weekly religious services (compared with 20 percent of the general U.S. population
15 percent of scientists consider themselves very religious (19 percent)
13.5 percent of scientists read religious texts weekly (17 percent)
But research also shows where the threads of suspicion run. A 2009 study by Pew Research found a wider gap between scientists and the general public on religion. And Ecklund's new study also found:

22 percent of scientists and 20 percent of the general population think most religious people are hostile to science
22 percent of the general population thinks scientists are hostile to religion
27 percent of Americans feel that science and religion are in conflict
Of those who feel science and religion are in conflict, 52 percent sided with religion
- See more at: http://cathylynngrossman.religionnews.com/2014/02/16/science-religion-aaas-hamonnye-evangelical/#sthash.m7AWOkcw.dpuf


If there is intelligent life elsewhere in the multiverse, did/does/will-there-be a Jesus, too? Romans? Jews? Will he be crucified?
  • Last Edit: 2015-06-13, 13:58:01 by Jimbro3738