The DnD Sanctuary

General => Browsers & Technology => Topic started by: Frenzie on 2014-01-07, 15:01:33

Title: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-01-07, 15:01:33
Not a great picture, but here's mine:

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fpolymathicmonkey.smugmug.com%2Fphotos%2Fi-tp73Ghz%2F0%2FM%2Fi-tp73Ghz-M.jpg&hash=2f60f26a6b85d5a99f52367cab8e84ed" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://polymathicmonkey.smugmug.com/photos/i-tp73Ghz/0/M/i-tp73Ghz-M.jpg) (http://polymathicmonkey.smugmug.com/photos/i-tp73Ghz/0/X2/i-tp73Ghz-X2.jpg)
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Macallan on 2014-01-07, 15:25:26
Sun Type 7 :right:
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-01-07, 15:38:13
That might be a high quality rubber dome, but it's still a rubber dome. :right:
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Macallan on 2014-01-07, 15:48:17
Yes, unfortunately. For anything with a PS/2 connector there's my IBM Model M from 1993 ;)
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-01-07, 16:25:06
I haven't really tried it recently, but I always felt depressing keys on my Model M was a bit harder than it should be.

The connector--fair enough. I use my Das Keyboard with PS/2 for full n-key rollover, plus of course PS/2 sends an interrupt as opposed to being polled.

PS My Model M's from '92, neener, neener. ;D (But if your Model M has an ANSI layout I'm still jealous; mine's ISO.)
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: j7n on 2014-01-07, 17:31:55
ׂ
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Macallan on 2014-01-07, 18:03:10

I haven't really tried it recently, but I always felt depressing keys on my Model M was a bit harder than it should be.

Hmm, it's harder than most keyboards, but actually not that much harder than my Type 7. Older Sun keyboards are a little bit softer. My wife doesn't like the Model M though, too noisy :right:


The connector--fair enough. I use my Das Keyboard with PS/2 for full n-key rollover, plus of course PS/2 sends an interrupt as opposed to being polled.

Pre-USB Sun keyboards use plain old serial ports at 5v without handshake lines ( so a 6 pin DIN connector has room for two - the keyboard itself and the mouse ), so no polling there either.
I'm not sure what you're referring to anyway, the only keyboards I'm aware of that are actually polled are ADB, and there ( at least on PowerPC-based macs ) the microcontroller on the mainboard does the polling.


PS My Model M's from '92, neener, neener. ;D (But if your Model M has an ANSI layout I'm still jealous; mine's ISO.)

Removable keycaps, british layout :right:
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-01-07, 18:35:08
It would seem that I use a yet another keyboard layout that is neither ANSI, nor ISO.

There's also the Unix layout (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Sun_Type_5). You'll note Ctrl and Caps Lock are switched, and the presence of a real Compose key.

Anyway, I'm afraid that I find your enter key an odd crossbreed between ISO and ANSI. What I dislike about ISO is not so much the enter key, although I prefer the smaller yet more accessible ANSI one, but the fact that there's a \| button where the left Shift should be. I can't stand that antagonist to proper typing.

Hmm, it's harder than most keyboards, but actually not that much harder than my Type 7. Older Sun keyboards are a little bit softer though.

It's not that much harder than mine either; an awful lot louder though. (But not much harder is still harder.)

I'm not sure what you're referring to anyway

Like you indicated, USB is polled (http://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/BF03195452) (and slower).

Removable keycaps, british layout :right:

That's the same then, except mine has Dutch keycaps. So I stick to mine's older, neener, neener. ;)
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: j7n on 2014-01-07, 18:59:47
ׂ
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-01-07, 19:09:39
I agree. That's the key I expect to be under Return, and which is generally found on the right hand side of the keyboard.

Under? I expect it on the top right of return. :) But regardless where the \| key is, the shift keys should be freaking symmetrical.

The Compose key sounds like a Linux feature. I have never used it, and I have never seen support for it in Windows. But it sounds similar to the Dead Key.

Unix. :P But yes, GNU/Linux is Unix-like. Anyhoo, there's third-party software to provide similar functionality on Windows. I prefer the explicit compose key mechanism to implicit dead key mechanisms. My layout is US International, which allows for easy typing of Dutch, German, French, English, and several other European languages.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Macallan on 2014-01-07, 19:14:02

There's also the Unix layout (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Sun_Type_5). You'll note Ctrl and Caps Lock are switched, and the presence of a real Compose key.

My pre-USB Sun keyboards are like that, at least the Type 6 was available in UNIX or PC layout, with Sun or USB interface. Type 7 is USB only, mine's PC layout but they all have compose keys.


Removable keycaps, british layout :right:

That's the same then, except mine has Dutch keycaps. So I stick to mine's older, neener, neener. ;)

I raise you an Apple Extended Keyboard II from 1991. Nowhere near as loud as a Model M, despite having actual switches, and just as heavy & sturdy. It's a little bit smaller though.

Oh, if fast response times are what you're looking for you better get a HP HIL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIL_bus) keyboard & mouse. The HP9000/345 I used to have ( my first NetBSD box... ) came with that - the keyboards are weird (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Hil-kbd.jpg), the mice are extremely responsive and accurate ( since the bus is MUCH faster than PS/2 they can - and will - transmit far more position updates per second ). HP switching to PS/2 was a huge downgrade.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-01-07, 19:43:34
Interesting, I'd never heard of that. I'm not looking for fast response times per se, but the only thing I lose by using PS/2 is the ability to easily plug my keyboard in and out. What I gain are potentially faster response times and full n-key rollover.

For mice you can up the USB polling speed
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Mouse_Polling_Rate

I understand you should be able to do something similar for keyboards, but nothing officially supported.

Now you have me wondering if I should try playing with the USB polling rate on my mouse...
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Macallan on 2014-01-07, 20:18:05
There's a similar trick for pre-USB Sun mice - just crank up the speed of the serial port. Most can go quite a bit faster than the 'standard' rate.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2014-01-21, 16:17:03
Here's the kind of keyboard I dream of (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mrinterface.com%2Fkeyboardsims%2Fhhkb2%2Fimg%2Ffront.jpg&hash=eba2ac67bb4795dde8059c8ba1574c49" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.mrinterface.com/keyboardsims/hhkb2/img/front.jpg)You get the general idea? I want the caps lock key out of the way!
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-01-21, 16:34:48
They didn't show you the other photo.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-01-21, 17:48:00
You get the general idea? I want the caps lock key out of the way!

But you don't need a special keyboard for that: just tell your OS to treat the Caps Lock key as an extra Control key. As I'm sure I've said, I use Caps Lock as Compose.

Btw, if you ever do get one of those, please share your impression of the Topre switches. Although, I suppose that may not necessarily be the most useful if you don't have a buckling spring (Model M) or some Cherry switches to compare to.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2014-01-21, 18:01:57

You get the general idea? I want the caps lock key out of the way!

But you don't need a special keyboard for that: just tell your OS to treat the Caps Lock key as an extra Control key. As I'm sure I've said, I use Caps Lock as Compose.

But the thing is that I need caps lock function often enough. Is caps lock mappable to a key combo when I reassign the key to some other function?
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-01-21, 18:09:57
I believe swapping Caps Lock and left Control is fairly popular. I wouldn't know about alternative key bindings, but I'd be surprised if it couldn't be done. BUT WHAT DO YOU NEED CAPS LOCK FOR?*

* Not actual shouting. It's just I haven't missed Caps Lock at all since I disabled it. :) And actually typing that sentence by keeping Shift pressed and swapping the Shift-pressing pinky around automatically while I was typing barely slowed me down either.

I know what Caps Lock is useful for. On a (mechanical) typewriter you use it for headings, and holding down shift is just freaking heavy. But let's face it, we've been using electric typewriters for decades now.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2014-01-21, 19:20:35
Being a translator, proofreader and book editor, I have encountered whole paragraphs and even chapters in all caps. But you are right. I could learn the shortcuts to set chunks of text to uppercase and lowercase. Word processing software can do it. I use it from menus when needed, but I could learn the keyboard shortcuts or whatever else works in all the different editors.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-01-21, 19:22:45
...chapters? I don't even want to know. :P
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-01-21, 22:06:51
I hate wireless keyboards.
Not only there's a delay between when we press and the letters appears in the screen but wireless keyboards always chose the worst time for getting out of battery and it uses to happen instantaneously.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2014-01-22, 06:40:34
Once upon a time, for being a good mobile customer, I got an offer for a home computer from my mobile (and internet and TV) provider. I use internet only with mobile phone and TV not at all, so the home computer offer didn't make sense to me. I diverted the offer to another person. When the computer arrived, it turned out it had bluetooth keyboard and bluetooth mouse. Those wireless peripherals probably were a hot offer at the time, but I was relieved already then that these things hadn't landed at my own place. I imagined changing batteries for those things...
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2014-04-03, 07:35:50
Here's the keyboard of my bestest laptop.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fg-ecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FG%2F01%2Felectronics%2Fdell%2Fcnet_inspiron15touch_rev3521_gallery_08_800.jpg&hash=9321ff412938b49ee46301e14bfaf755" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/electronics/dell/cnet_inspiron15touch_rev3521_gallery_08_800.jpg)
There are also other machines with other keyboards that I use. I will eventually post those too.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-03, 07:47:28
Not bad at all, although it somewhat kills right Ctrl.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2014-04-03, 07:54:18
I hardly use right Ctrl. Also, I wish Caps Lock were designed differently, positioned differently. After experimenting various ways, I finally determined that I need Caps Lock on this particular keyboard the way it is. The Caps Lock comes with a light on it that shows if it's on or off.

But I am very happy with the numbers keypad. Both for the number keys and when I need Enter, I am accustomed to hit the far right corner of the numbers keypad :)
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-03, 08:11:38
I use right Ctrl for e.g. Ctrl + A, C, and V. That is, its use is the same as right Shift.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: jax on 2014-04-03, 08:12:59
BUT WHAT DO YOU NEED CAPS LOCK FOR?*


Me, most commonly when I have Chinese-enabled keyboard in front of me, usually not my own, and I am too lazy to check which of a dozen different Chinese composition input method is used to disable them and make sure they stay disabled. None of these method, to my knowledge,  compose UPPERCASE, so typing an URL for instance is much less annoying. This, I suspect, will increase the use of upper-case Latin letters in mixed western/Chinese messages, as it is a whole lot faster/convenient.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-03, 08:20:58
I'd imagine a Western QWERTY keyboard would map reasonably well to related alphabets like Cyrillic, Greek, Hebrew, and Arabic. However, for a language like Chinese it must be horrible. Then again, I hear young Chinese people primarily use Pinyin for Chinese-character input.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2014-04-03, 08:26:17

I use right Ctrl for e.g. Ctrl + A, C, and V. That is, its use is the same as right Shift.
Compared to you, I am left-handed. I don't use right Shift either, ever.


I'd imagine a Western QWERTY keyboard would map reasonably well to related alphabets like Cyrillic, Greek, Hebrew, and Arabic. However, for a language like Chinese it must be horrible. Then again, I hear young Chinese people primarily use Pinyin for Chinese-character input.

I wouldn't call Cyrillic, Greek, Hebrew and Arabic related. The only thing that is related to Latin is that they are all alphabets. To non-natives it's always hard to switch between them. It requires training. I am amazed how well-trained Greeks and Russians often are when they switch to a Latin-based layout and begin typing.

Chinese is another matter. It's not an alphabet. What I have heard is that they type letters based on pinyin and at the same time on the screen the selection of the actually needed mark narrows down. I don't know if there could be any other ways to make Chinese work on keyboards.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: jax on 2014-04-03, 08:59:00

I'd imagine a Western QWERTY keyboard would map reasonably well to related alphabets like Cyrillic, Greek, Hebrew, and Arabic. However, for a language like Chinese it must be horrible. Then again, I hear young Chinese people primarily use Pinyin for Chinese-character input.


The majority of composing methods use Pinyin, there are also some that are more related to the characters themselves, and a few other method. It is easy to fit, uses an ASCII (unless diacritical marks are included), and younger Chinese learn Pinyin at school anyway. With Pinyin QWERTZ and AZERTY would be horrible, as the Pinzin transcription uses Y, Z, W, Q, and A a lot, while these are relatively rare letters in English.

A huge advantage with Pinyin is that it allows alphabetical sorting, which is a lot more convenient, to me anyways, than the alternative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collation#Radical-and-stroke_sorting)s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_character#Indexing). You sort by Pinyin, then by diacritics (tone marks), and then handle any remaining ambiguity by some other algorithm.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-03, 09:18:43
I wouldn't call Cyrillic, Greek, Hebrew and Arabic related. The only thing that is related to Latin is that they are all alphabets. To non-natives it's always hard to switch between them. It requires training. I am amazed how well-trained Greeks and Russians often are when they switch to a Latin-based layout and begin typing.

I was talking about the potential serviceability of the same physical structure, not any particular key mappings -- although one might imagine the numbers would be in the same place. I call these alphabets related for the simple fact that they are: all these alphabets come from the same Phoenician source. Some characters can be traced back even further to Egyptian hieroglyphics and the Sinai desert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Sinaitic_script).
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: jax on 2014-04-03, 09:34:39
Speaking of hieroglyphs, for their customisation, they are still quite typewriter-ish in nature. They don't fully take advantage of the switch to Unicode. It should be possible to combine phoney keyboard intelligence and Chinese composing techniques to compose the right Unicode characters at need.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-03, 11:19:13
Quote from: ersi
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fg-ecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FG%2F01%2Felectronics%2Fdell%2Fcnet_inspiron15touch_rev3521_gallery_08_800.jpg&hash=9321ff412938b49ee46301e14bfaf755" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/electronics/dell/cnet_inspiron15touch_rev3521_gallery_08_800.jpg)
Mine is practically the same (without the right number section) - except that I have a "print" button betwixt the right "Alt" and "Ctrl".
You're lucky to have 2 Enters, huh?;)
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-03, 14:10:15
betwixt

The 14th century called. They want their word back. :P
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-03, 16:01:04
I found that in RJ's lexicon!..
Did he call? :lol:
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-03, 19:06:21
It's still used in Scottish English, true.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2014-05-03, 14:07:04
A pic of the laptop that I talk about here (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=335.msg19043#msg19043)
(https://vivaldi.net/media/com_easysocial/photos/6757/40543/11f9fa136c5f2aeb1ede77f3cc334a72_original.jpg)

And my Packard Bell netbook
(https://vivaldi.net/media/com_easysocial/photos/6757/40542/e155356fbf18ea405c23526c1a042d4c_original.jpg)
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Banned Member [2] on 2014-05-03, 15:36:57
A pic of the laptop that I talk about here (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=335.msg19043#msg19043)
(https://vivaldi.net/media/com_easysocial/photos/6757/40543/11f9fa136c5f2aeb1ede77f3cc334a72_original.jpg)
Same as mine - except for the "print" button.
Where is it? Is it?
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2014-05-03, 15:54:18

Same as mine - except for the "print" button.
Where is it? Is it?

You mean Print Screen? There's no dedicated button for this. There's Insert next to Delete (top right corner). Print Screen is the other function of Insert. Next to left Ctrl is the Fn button that changes the function.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-05-03, 16:11:25
You mean Print Screen?
No, I meant the printer 'print' button.
Sorry, I couldn't see your "F" row clearly.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-05-03, 16:30:36
No, I meant the printer 'print' button.

That's probably one of those function keys I don't care for because you've already got Ctrl + P everywhere. (And where Ctrl + P doesn't work, chances are the dedicated print key won't work anyway.)
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-05-03, 18:40:47
So far it hasn't been needed anyway.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2014-05-04, 05:51:17
I didn't even know there was a printer print button in computers. In my early years with computers, I thought PrintScr would send screen capture to the printer, if the printer were connected. Otherwise it didn't seem to do anything in Windows. I only discovered later you have to open up an image editor and paste there to see what the PrintScr key had done, that it actually had a function.

But Linux desktops make it flashily clear what PrintScr does. Cool.

By the way, it's quite useful to have different operating systems. I was trying to figure out someone's scanner problems. Trying with different machines with different operating systems I figured out it was not a software issue. The scanner itself had retired. Problem solved :)
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-05-04, 06:08:27
But Linux desktops make it flashily clear what PrintScr does. Cool.

Install e.g. Greenshot in Windows.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2014-05-04, 07:47:01
Tell me better about screenshot apps in Android. What do you have?
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-05-04, 08:01:21
I believe pressing power and volume down together takes a screenshot on most devices. In my case, it's simply an entry on the reboot/shutdown menu. No apps.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2014-05-04, 08:19:28

I believe pressing power and volume down together takes a screenshot on most devices. In my case, it's simply an entry on the reboot/shutdown menu. No apps.
On most devices? Why didn't it ever work on any of my devices? Also not on the current one: LG-P500 Android 2.3.3. The power/volume button conjunction doesn't work, and I obviously would have noticed screenshot in the shutdown menu. It's not there, never was. And YT says I must find the right app http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf_6K590Yq4
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-05-04, 09:04:20
On most devices? Why didn't it ever work on any of my devices? Also not on the current one: LG-P500 Android 2.3.3.

Sorry, most devices with Android 4.0 or higher. A quick search (http://www.quickscreenshots.com/lg-optimus-one/) suggests power + home should work on yours.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2014-05-04, 15:30:55
How I wish it worked this way. It doesn't. I have installed an app to have a different home screen. I switched it off and kept trying the power+home button combo. Luckless me :(
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-09-03, 20:41:11
Here are some thoughts on more efficient keyboard use: http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboard_function_keys.html

I admit I could probably get a lot more use out of my function keys by remapping them. The only change I've made to the default US International layout is using "Caps Lock" as "Compose".

On a separate note, I came across this interesting portable keyboard (http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/reviews/pc-peripheral/3435643/cherry-g84-4100-review/). It'd work with my Android phone's USB OTG functionality, making it potentially useful in certain use cases. It'd be more pleasant to use than my netbook's keyboard, but on the other hand the netbook is definitely a lot more capable than my phone...
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Macallan on 2014-09-05, 00:39:33
Reminds me, I meant to do something with the extra keys on my Sun keyboards (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Sun_Type_5) but never got around to it.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-09-05, 08:28:24
It's clearly a gaming board. Put on Quake keycaps (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/keycap-mod-packs/quake-color-modifier-set.html). :P
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2014-09-05, 10:04:03
When you play the keyboard like a pro pianist, i.e. each finger is restricted to a few keys, then shouldn't you already know what's best for you? Where's the need for experimentation?

I am not a pro pianist. I press the keys unmethodically. Any finger can press any key, but since I need to do it a lot and often, some patterns of convenience emerge for certain words, phrases, and functions. Also, it's convenient to have a familiar keyboard, so that I know by habit where my needed keys are and what key-pressing habits of mine are usable.

Reality is a bit more complicated of course. I have to use many different keyboards in different places during different times of day, not just my preferred keyboard. This means I have to adapt my typing, and adaptation works best when habits and preferences are not too deeply entrenched.

And really, I prefer ink, pen, and paper over any keyboard, but life has taken another turn. Must adapt to this too. The best keyboard is a familiar one. If the keyboard is not familiar, I prefer the keys be labelled properly and clearly so I can have realistic expectations in relation to the keyboard and adapt without too much hassle.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-09-05, 14:35:05
When you play the keyboard like a pro pianist, i.e. each finger is restricted to a few keys, then shouldn't you already know what's best for you? Where's the need for experimentation?

I don't quite follow what you're responding to. If you mean, for instance, why I'd consider to "experimenting" with assigning something else to F1 than "help" the simple answer is that I find that a waste of a perfectly good function key. In Opera I've already had it defined as something else for years. However, I disagree with the author of the page I linked that Ctrl + Z/C/V is particularly problematic, and if modifier keys like Shift and Ctrl aren't pressed automatically without noticing it, you can't properly touch type (my apologies to people with disabilities; that statement may not apply to them). In my opinion, the only way to get "hand stress" there is if you incorrectly use only one hand. In any case, Caps Lock and F1 are almost entirely useless to me by default, making them prime real estate for remapping. Like I said, I've been using Caps Lock as Compose for years, but I've mostly been overlooking F1. That being said, I don't quite know what I'd do with it. I just know it's wasted on me and I should figure out a better use for it sometime.

And really, I prefer ink, pen, and paper over any keyboard, but life has taken another turn.

Not me. Maybe if I'd grown up writing Hebrew or Arabic instead...
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: tt92 on 2014-09-05, 18:39:41
Anyone else here so ancient that you can remember when a keyboard was worth repairing?
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-09-05, 18:48:32
Nothing ancient about it. If a switch on my keyboard were to break, I'd solder on a new one. Partially because it'd hopefully be kind of fun, partially because unless I made over €100 an hour anything else wouldn't make the least bit of economic sense.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2014-09-05, 19:20:41

If you mean, for instance, why I'd consider to "experimenting" with assigning something else to F1 than "help" the simple answer is that I find that a waste of a perfectly good function key. In Opera I've already had it defined as something else for years.

If you can remember all those customisations, then it's not really experimenting :) For me, however, it would be. I am not a champion of keyboards, and I need to be able to type on several throughout the day. My customisations of keyboard behaviour involve only setting NumLk on or off at login on different machines, redefining Caps Lock, and making a few charsets available (Estonian, Swedish, Greek, and Russian; I never use US). This is already quite many elements of confusion, isn't it?

Different programs have plenty of their own keyboard shortcuts that differ and are hard to remember. I usually go through somee trouble to harmonise the keyboard shortcuts and other configuration across programs I use most, but this is not to be done too extensively so as to forget how the program behaves out of the box, when I need to deal with the program on some other machine which is configured differently.

There are some customisations that are best avoided. For example some people set rm as alias for rm -i and when they are on someone else's machine, the command they are used to won't work as expected. I have set del as that alias.


However, I disagree with the author of the page I linked that Ctrl + Z/C/V is particularly problematic, and if modifier keys like Shift and Ctrl aren't pressed automatically without noticing it, you can't properly touch type (my apologies to people with disabilities; that statement may not apply to them).

What finger would be on Ctrl? Pinkie? I usually press Ctrl with the thumb. I really need to make myself extra alert like "Hey, this is not normal typing. It's a keyboard shortcut!" to get it right.


In my opinion, the only way to get "hand stress" there is if you incorrectly use only one hand.
Hand stress is gradually becoming a real issue for me, but because of mouse rather than faulty typing. My mouse hand wrist needs serious vacation.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-09-05, 19:59:31
My customisations of keyboard behaviour involve only setting NumLk on or off at login on different machines, redefining Caps Lock, and making a few charsets available (Estonian, Swedish, Greek, and Russian; I never use US). This is already quite many elements of confusion, isn't it?

Except in Opera I use practically no customizations other than Compose instead of Caps Lock. I exclusively use the US International layout. I've long since forgotten the Dutch QWERTY layout and I find AZERTY a horrible abomination. Okay, I get that certain characters might get different priorities, but did they really have to mess up the basic alphabet and numbers? I mean, it's not like these completely arbitrary differences make it actually better in any objective manner.

There are some customisations that are best avoided. For example some people set rm as alias for rm -i and when they are on someone else's machine, the command they are used to won't work as expected. I have set del as that alias.

Agreed. I've made that mistake myself.

What finger would be on Ctrl? Pinkie? I usually press Ctrl with the thumb. I really need to make myself extra alert like "Hey, this is not normal typing. It's a keyboard shortcut!" to get it right.

Indeed, it's practically the same as Shift. I'd say press the Windows/super key with your pinky too, but Alt with your thumbs. Actually the space bar could be a fair bit smaller, making room for an extra pair of thumb-activated keys like on a Japanese keyboard. Maybe that'd be good for something that acted like e.g. Ctrl+Shift, one of those inelegant bindings. Or maybe arrow keys? That way you wouldn't have to move your hands to do Ctrl + left/right while writing something. Although that'd work better if Caps Lock were Ctrl.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Macallan on 2014-09-06, 12:47:04

Anyone else here so ancient that you can remember when a keyboard was worth repairing?

Sure :right:
Really depends on the keyboard though. Nobody's going to bother fixing some cheap piece of junk. Different story if the part in question isn't as easy or cheap to replace.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Macallan on 2014-09-06, 12:53:19

What finger would be on Ctrl? Pinkie?

That's what my left hand usually ends up doing.


Hand stress is gradually becoming a real issue for me, but because of mouse rather than faulty typing. My mouse hand wrist needs serious vacation.

Been there, done that, got a trackball instead ( the kind you use with your thumb. Too bad they're all right-handed though ). Then I got used to it and Logitech promptly discontinued them ( except the expensive wireless variant ) :furious:
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-09-06, 14:48:44
Really depends on the keyboard though. Nobody's going to bother fixing some cheap piece of junk. Different story if the part in question isn't as easy or cheap to replace.

As far as I'm concerned most people seem to either severely underspend or severely overspend on mouse and keyboard. There are some real pearls in the <€20 range for what they are, with many more expensive models only adding on useless extra buttons to the exact same base keyboard. As such, any extra money spent is a total waste. At the same time, however, the cheapest nicer keyboard you can find is probably the Cherry G84-4100 for €60-70ish. Keep in mind that the latter might last for decades (although maybe you'd better buy some spare switches in advance if you want to be sure?) while the former will no doubt be begging for replacement by the time you need a new computer.

With mice things are a bit harder, but I can tell you cheaper trackballs aren't really worth it (except perhaps on the go).

Been there, done that, got a trackball instead ( the kind you use with your thumb. Too bad they're all right-handed though ). Then I got used to it and Logitech promptly discontinued them ( except the expensive wireless variant )

I use a Kensington Expert Mouse Pro* but right now the Kensington SlimBlade is probably a better buy. (NB I don't own it so I can't compare.) I don't use it because of mouse issues, but simply because I fell in love with it when I tried it.

* Don't be confused by the name: it's a trackball.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2014-09-06, 21:12:33
I am saved from too much mouse-stress by the fact of using touchpads (because they come with netbooks and laptops, duh) rather than mouses. At most I use mouse at work.

I have a hint how to relieve (or postpone) mouse-stress. Instead of squeezing the mouse and pressing it to the table as it's normally done, I turn the mouse upside down, with its stomach towards the roof. I keep the mouse in my hand while my hand rests with its back on the table. This prevents tracking with the mouse, but buttons still work just fine, and scrolling too. When tracking is needed, I turn the mouse the right way again. This gives the hand some more mobility during work.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Macallan on 2014-09-07, 00:43:41

Really depends on the keyboard though. Nobody's going to bother fixing some cheap piece of junk. Different story if the part in question isn't as easy or cheap to replace.

As far as I'm concerned most people seem to either severely underspend or severely overspend on mouse and keyboard. There are some real pearls in the <€20 range for what they are, with many more expensive models only adding on useless extra buttons to the exact same base keyboard. As such, any extra money spent is a total waste. At the same time, however, the cheapest nicer keyboard you can find is probably the Cherry G84-4100 for €60-70ish. Keep in mind that the latter might last for decades (although maybe you'd better buy some spare switches in advance if you want to be sure?) while the former will no doubt be begging for replacement by the time you need a new computer.

Of course, cheap isn't necessarily junk and expensive isn't necessarily much better.


With mice things are a bit harder, but I can tell you cheaper trackballs aren't really worth it (except perhaps on the go).

Just last week I fixed a Logitech trackball ( you know, the old, beige, discontinued Trackman variant ) - it had lost one of the tiny steel balls that the big red ball sits on. Found a replacement, now it's back in service.


Been there, done that, got a trackball instead ( the kind you use with your thumb. Too bad they're all right-handed though ). Then I got used to it and Logitech promptly discontinued them ( except the expensive wireless variant )

I use a Kensington Expert Mouse Pro* but right now the Kensington SlimBlade is probably a better buy. (NB I don't own it so I can't compare.) I don't use it because of mouse issues, but simply because I fell in love with it when I tried it.

I'd probably have ended up using one anyway ( my girlfriend at the time was a big fan ) but having a problem similar to what ersi described certainly added lots of motivation.


* Don't be confused by the name: it's a trackball.

For some reason 'Kensington trackball' makes me think of the old ADB ones they used to make ( as in, square base, big ball in the center, buttons around it )
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-09-07, 07:14:11
For some reason 'Kensington trackball' makes me think of the old ADB ones they used to make ( as in, square base, big ball in the center, buttons around it )

That's exactly what it is. ;) Just with (in my case) an additional defective scrollring. You can see some older versions here (http://www.geocities.jp/takabontetsu/trackball.htm). This video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzsmtKxxjog) shows what at least on the outside looks exactly the same as the one I've got:



The first comment to that video says:
Quote from: YouTube comment
ya its not the best. first reason is because its a finger ball. who the hell wants to use there [sic] finger. thumb trackballs are the best. that being said the Microsoft optic trackball is the best ever made to this day

That's incorrect. Primarily of course because finger or thumb is a matter of preference rather than objective fact, but what I'm actually referring to is that I use it as a bi-handed thumb-controlled trackball. It's just a finger-controlled ball by default. The clue is whether you use the top or bottom buttons for left & right click.

Here's my xorg.conf:
Code: [Select]
Section "InputClass"
        Identifier      "Kensington Trackball"
        MatchProduct    "Kensington Expert Mouse"
        Option          "SendCoreEvents" "True"
        Option          "ButtonMapping" "0 1 2 4 5 6 7 3"
        Option          "EmulateWheel" "True"
        Option          "EmulateWheelButton" "1"
EndSection


I use top left & right for left & right click (default bottom left & right), bottom right for middle click, and bottom left for scrolling.

The actual biggest problem is that the sensor is at the bottom, so any junk can fall right in. This results in something more like a ye olde mouse biweekly cleaning ritual than the months on end you might expect with an optical sensor. The Kensington Kingblade supposedly has the sensor on the side and an exit hole at the bottom to alleviate this issue.

Quote
Just last week I fixed a Logitech trackball ( you know, the old, beige, discontinued Trackman variant ) - it had lost one of the tiny steel balls that the big red ball sits on. Found a replacement, now it's back in service.

My wife's Logitech Wireless Trackball M570 (http://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/wireless-trackball-m570) is not a slouchy replacement. She had an old beige one (probably called Trackman) which started malfunctioning.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Macallan on 2014-09-07, 13:07:09

For some reason 'Kensington trackball' makes me think of the old ADB ones they used to make ( as in, square base, big ball in the center, buttons around it )

That's exactly what it is. ;) Just with (in my case) an additional defective scrollring. You can see some older versions here (http://www.geocities.jp/takabontetsu/trackball.htm). This video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzsmtKxxjog) shows what at least on the outside looks exactly the same as the one I've got:


Indeed, the old ones were just beige, I guess to match the keyboards Apple shipped back then.


The first comment to that video says:
Quote from: YouTube comment
ya its not the best. first reason is because its a finger ball. who the hell wants to use there [sic] finger. thumb trackballs are the best. that being said the Microsoft optic trackball is the best ever made to this day

That's incorrect. Primarily of course because finger or thumb is a matter of preference rather than objective fact, but what I'm actually referring to is that I use it as a bi-handed thumb-controlled trackball. It's just a finger-controlled ball by default. The clue is whether you use the top or bottom buttons for left & right click.

Actually, I never used one of these.


The actual biggest problem is that the sensor is at the bottom, so any junk can fall right in. This results in something more like a ye olde mouse biweekly cleaning ritual than the months on end you might expect with an optical sensor. The Kensington Kingblade supposedly has the sensor on the side and an exit hole at the bottom to alleviate this issue.

Some of the Logitech ones have the hole, some don't. The sensor always seems to be off to the side though. Still needs occasional cleaning since dirt accumulates around the three steel balls that the main ball sits on.


Quote
Just last week I fixed a Logitech trackball ( you know, the old, beige, discontinued Trackman variant ) - it had lost one of the tiny steel balls that the big red ball sits on. Found a replacement, now it's back in service.

My wife's Logitech Wireless Trackball M570 (http://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/wireless-trackball-m570) is not a slouchy replacement. She had an old beige one (probably called Trackman) which started malfunctioning.

My wife's got one of those, seems to be the only model you can get around here these days :/
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-09-07, 13:22:11
Some of the Logitech ones have the hole, some don't. The sensor always seems to be off to the side though. Still needs occasional cleaning since dirt accumulates around the three steel balls that the main ball sits on.

Sure, that'll always remain an issue. But that's just a matter of smoothness. That sensor at the bottom only needs a couple of hairs or some such to fall in just the wrong place to start running amok. There's a difference between quickly cleaning out a bit every week or two in order to have the smoothest experience and having to clean it out every week or two because otherwise your cursor will start moving more and more independently (or not at all).

I have a Logitech Marble Mouse* with the hole at the bottom and I don't think the actual sensor's ever really needed cleaning. Just the ball bearings.

* El cheapo trackball, not recommended but can be useful as a laptop mouse or maybe as an entry trackball if you're not prepared to drop €60-70 on an M570 or a Slimblade. I suspect the Kensington Orbit is nicer, but that didn't come out until a few years ago. [Edit]The M570 is available for €30. I paid twice as much for that thing in 2011 when my wife needed it.  :furious: Anyway, that means that even though I prefer left-handed mouse use, I'd probably recommend the M570 over any other €30ish trackball. With the caveat that I haven't tried the Orbit (available at €22 without scrollring and at €30 with... but I don't trust the damned scrollring one bit).[/edit]
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-09-22, 09:38:11
This is a very interesting article about the myth of Dvorak.

http://reason.com/archives/1996/06/01/typing-errors/

(Although the relevance of the last sentence to the rest of the article evades me.)
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2014-09-22, 11:06:06
When there's an article nastily spread across several pages that they expect you to click, click the print link instead http://reason.com/archives/1996/06/01/typing-errors/print
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-09-22, 11:48:39
Right, thanks. In this particular case I thought it wasn't that bad.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2014-09-22, 13:05:52

(Although the relevance of the last sentence to the rest of the article evades me.)

I knew what the last sentence was going to be already when I was at the intro. Since the beginning of the article there were indicators that the authors hate government intervention. Hate is the right word, because they bring it up without any proper context.

This was not an article about keyboards, but about economics. I thank the authors for a nice story of the history of the keyboards, but the story was really meant to refute "the doctrine of path dependence" according to which the first player on a market "locks in" the market slot even when the product is inferior.

The simplistic way in which the authors present this "doctrine of path dependence" suggests that no serious thinker can hold to this "doctrine", at least not in this shape. So the authors must be peddling a strawman. In which case the authors fail to refute the doctrine of path dependence, because they fail to address it.

The last sentence makes it impossible to withhold the allegation of ulterior motives against the authors. Throughout the article, none of the examples imply anything about government intervention one way or another, but the authors end the article precisely by bringing up government intervention in a manner similar to "moreover, Carthage must be destroyed".
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-09-22, 14:06:21
I knew what the last sentence was going to be already when I was at the intro.

Heh, you're right. Apparently I very successfully skimmed through and disregarded pretty much everything up to "The Fable". I'd basically managed to forget page 1 existed at all by the time I reached the end. :) The print page makes it easier to keep track of the whole content, for sure.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2015-06-13, 08:38:02
What's the best way to type?

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.computerhope.com%2Fissues%2Fpictures%2Ffingers.jpg&hash=a71e61077f095d1cb52b69556318d78c" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.computerhope.com/issues/pictures/fingers.jpg)

From the tutorials I am getting the impression that we are supposed to press specific keys with specific fingers, as in the image. "F" should be pressed only with the left index finger and nothing else and similarly there's a specific finger assigned for every other key too.

This doesn't seem right to me, because the scheme in the image requires too much labour from the index fingers. Index fingers are (on ordinary humans) significantly shorter than middle fingers. Due to their length, it would be quite natural to give middle fingers much more work to do - which is how I in fact am used to type.

Moreover, when index fingers are overburdened, sequences like UNB or GR are near-impossible. The "wrong" way of typing is much more creative - look at/think of the word you are about to type and devise the most convenient hand movement for it. After some practice, the devise phase takes no time at all, and the practice is no harder than the standard typing scheme.

Then there's also the fact that we have key combos, like Alt+Tab or Ctrl+Alt+Esc. These must be, as a matter of necessity, be typed the "wrong" way.

All in all, in my opinion the "wrong" way is not wrong at all. It's properly creative and based on convenience derived from pragmatic necessity. Just like on piano, you cannot press the same key always with the same finger. It depends on what you pressed just before and what you will press next.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-06-13, 09:45:19
It's certainly true that (almost?) no experienced touch typist will stringently follow such a scheme, but of course one "devises" how to type about as much as how one "devises" how to breathe or walk. A grave design error in many an ergonomic keyboard is that they will cleanly split along the lines indicated in your image, while (almost?) any experienced touch typist will "spill over". That being said, I see no difficulty in typing unb or gr with my index fingers and that's how I would do it.

As a general rule I would put 3 and 4 as well as 8 and 9 with the middle fingers, 0 with the ring finger, and 6 with the left hand.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2015-06-14, 10:15:56
Quite likely that experienced typists spill over the prescribed areas a bit. But I wasn't talking about experienced typists, as in secretary training. I was talking about why most people type the way they type, in a totally different way.

You know, when people learn to play the piano on their own and become a virtuoso, they end up playing the classical way by necessity, because the classical way happens to be common sense. Not so with typing. In typing, the common way is far away from the prescribed way.

When ordinary people type, they hardly ever use the same finger to type two keys in succession. For the next key there's always the next finger. I am thinking of a way to make a science out of this.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-06-14, 15:20:41
I have no idea what secretary training is, but it's irrelevant. An experienced typist is one who doesn't look at the keyboard, types at a certain minimum speed (let's say at least 300 characters/minute*), and presumably uses all of their available fingers to do so. If one manages to type 300 CPM with just two or four fingers I imagine it to be closer to a top speed than a minimum speed.**

I disagree with your suggestion that a method involving more than just a few fingers wouldn't be similar to your prescription image at least in principle. Although the physical layout of the keyboard is somewhat suboptimal, having more or less dedicated finger areas is surely the fastest and most efficient.

* In the English-speaking world le mot juste seems to be words per minute (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Words_per_minute) (WPM), where a word is defined as five characters.
** The Wikipedia article on WPM suggests two-finger typists can burst to over 400 CPM, but it doesn't define burst duration.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2015-06-14, 17:51:31

I have no idea what secretary training is, but it's irrelevant.

The kind of training that gets you a certificate about your typing skills. A certified typist.


An experienced typist is one who doesn't look at the keyboard, types at a certain minimum speed (let's say at least 300 characters/minute*), and presumably uses all of their available fingers to do so. If one manages to type 300 CPM with just two or four fingers I imagine it to be closer to a top speed than a minimum speed.**

I have to measure this some day. I might narrowly qualify to your definition of experienced typist. I always suspected not.

Is the speed measured backspacing excluded? I.e. the characters that one must delete due to mistyping are not counted as typed, right?


I disagree with your suggestion that a method involving more than just a few fingers wouldn't be similar to your prescription image at least in principle. Although the physical layout of the keyboard is somewhat suboptimal, having more or less dedicated finger areas is surely the fastest and most efficient.

Now, whatever I said about unschooled typing, I didn't mean two-finger typists. I didn't mean someone who has to hunt for each key with the eyes, like for Rosinen im Striezel. Certainly all fingers would be involved, just that middle fingers would get much more work than prescribed.

I have to pay more attention to how I normally type, but I am not aware of having assigned specific territories to fingers on the keyboard. It seems to me I can hit any key with any finger - currently convenient finger in the course of the sequence, that is. Middle fingers do most of the work and little fingers least, but none is idle.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-06-14, 19:39:21
The kind of training that gets you a certificate about your typing skills. A certified typist.

As long as you meet the requirements for speed and accuracy your methods don't matter. In any event, I suppose I have one of those from about twenty years ago.

Is the speed measured backspacing excluded? I.e. the characters that one must delete due to mistyping are not counted as typed, right?

Traditionally mistakes are penalized. I forget by how much for the certificate mentioned above, but indeed in our modern world they can simply be ignored as irrelevant besides the extra time involved. In the event that I do make a typo, I also tend to correct it before I even become aware of it.

I have to pay more attention to how I normally type, but I am not aware of having assigned specific territories to fingers on the keyboard. It seems to me I can hit any key with any finger - currently convenient finger in the course of the sequence, that is. Middle fingers do most of the work and little fingers least, but none is idle.

Having your middle fingers do most of the work doesn't sound natural to me. You'll notice that people who type with two or four fingers do most of their typing by index finger. Perhaps your middle fingers are unnaturally dexterous? ;)
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2015-06-14, 20:16:53

The kind of training that gets you a certificate about your typing skills. A certified typist.

As long as you meet the requirements for speed and accuracy your methods don't matter. In any event, I suppose I have one of those from about twenty years ago.

And I maintain that the certificate matters. It's both a mark and the result of the formal training. People without training are not likely to take the certificate test.


In the event that I do make a typo, I also tend to correct it before I even become aware of it.

This is an indication of a highly skilled typist. I am acutely aware of each typo and I sometimes have to rest my nerves, because correcting my own typos is a significant extra workload.


Having your middle fingers do most of the work doesn't sound natural to me. You'll notice that people who type with two or four fingers do most of their typing by index finger. Perhaps your middle fingers are unnaturally dexterous? ;)

Two-finger typists are inexperienced by definition. They have no say or bearing on the natural way to type. Surely you noticed how old people handle mobile phones. They hold it in one hand and press it with the index finger of the other hand. Is it more natural than youth who can hold the phone in palm and do everything with the thumb of the same hand? And now with the advent of bigger smartphones the manner of grip is changing again.

Given a reasonably fast typist, the natural way to type is to give labour to all fingers, I think. I'd make the amount of typing fingers a mark of experience and skill. But there are two distinct ways to cover the keyboard. One is the standard prescribed way, to assign territories on the keyboard for each finger. The other is patterns of convenience where every next key is pressed with a different finger.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-06-14, 21:12:23
One is the standard prescribed way, to assign territories on the keyboard for each finger. The other is patterns of convenience where every next key is pressed with a different finger.

The reason you use the natural (ahem, "prescribed" :P) way is because otherwise you have no idea where your fingers are. That is, it's the F and J keys from which everything logically derives. On a proper keyboard like mine you could of course stick marked keys wherever you like -- or nowhere at all. Provided you stick to a fairly standard QWERTY layout, I see no logical positions for the marked keys other than D and K (for middle fingers) or F and J (for index fingers). Alternatively you might try D and L or F and K, thus reducing the right-hand overload (a major design issue), but I believe that would best be accompanied by a remap. Given a standard QWERTY layout I see no reason to prefer non-standard placement.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-06-17, 20:29:50
There's a new Kickstarter for a keyboard called the Keyboardio: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/keyboardio/the-model-01-an-heirloom-grade-keyboard-for-seriou/description

(https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/003/982/367/bbd058e2bc54a02e3d58a41c29e4ee19_original.png?v=1434331669&w=680&h=&fit=max&auto=format&lossless=true&s=a89c7bcff1099f77728e078302844a6b)

At first glance I'm tempted, but the price is steep. If I were in America, I'd definitely try to take a look at one of the events they'll have this month.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Barulheira on 2015-06-18, 11:32:53
I have been a certified typist for about 30 years.
At that time, the finger mapping for the numeric keys row was shifted to the right. I should use the middle finger for 4 and for 9.
That's the way I usually type. But I agree with ersi, we have a trend to build our own shortcuts. For instance, I wouldn't type LOLOLOLOL with just one finger.
I think our brain works in a similar way as finding routes in Google Maps. Always instantly, it builds an algorithm to find the quickest way to type a bunch of keys. The standard way is just a reference; alternatives are allowed.
(Some time ago I would like to learn how to type on a Dvorak keyboard. I'm not that interested anymore.)
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2015-06-21, 05:24:31
Barulheira correctly identifies what I was getting at - the prescribed way tells you to hit adjacent keys with the same finger, but I find it impracticable to press adjacent keys in sequence with the same finger. And this principle - the next key with the next finger - applies even stronger when the keys to be pressed in sequence lie further apart. On the other hand, when I press the same key multiple times, of course I use the same finger.


The reason you use the natural (ahem, "prescribed" :P) way is because otherwise you have no idea where your fingers are. That is, it's the F and J keys from which everything logically derives.

This is the common point in all experienced typing, I'd say. Naturally you have to know where your fingers are, because your expectations of what is getting pressed (without looking at the keyboard - a mark of skill) must match with what actually gets pressed.

The start position is the same, index fingers on F and J, and typing means reaching for all other keys around F and J. But then there's the fact that fingers are of unequal length and this is why I cannot imagine putting middle fingers on D and K, next to F and J. When index fingers are on F and J, middle fingers seem most at rest on R and I instead.

Further, when I move a finger to a next position, all other fingers, the whole hand moves along with it, so the most convenient keys for fingers change with each change of position. My typing thus consists of inventive gestures throughout. It must be due to lack of dexterity (not dexterity that you previously accused me of) that I am unable to move each finger with precision confined to its own territory.

This perhaps fits the description of a typist who never got beyond the clumsy beginner's stage. I mistype and have to backspace more than I'd like to. However, I don't have to search keys by looking at the keyboard. And my typing speed, including backspacing, is likely average, never too slow for actual work. And I'd say I started the right way once upon a time - I began to type on an actual typing machine 20 years ago, when I was unable to afford a computer. (More correctly, I didn't properly understand the difference between a typing machine and a computer besides the price.) On a typing machine there's no backspacing, and this is how I started, slowly and carefully considering each touch on keys.

Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2016-01-11, 13:23:16
Having had some more conscious contact with different keyboards lately, there are some considerations I have been through. In addition to good computers and monitors, Dell makes good keyboards. This is a nice standard keyboard, Dell KB-212.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F61QdxDlZViL._SL1200_.jpg&hash=f72af74b4b7118281c31fca15485aa4d" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61QdxDlZViL._SL1200_.jpg)

Defender and Acme make more commonly available standard keyboards, closely resembling the above Dell, so much so that they look interchangeable, even though there are a few differences. Dell is more silent and has rubber feet on the other side to keep it solidly in place on the table. Defender and Acme are loud and gliding.

Many keyboards come with more keys than the standard set. I personally need multimedia keys to set a media player to play/pause and to pick next/previous track even when the media player is not in focus. These have to be separate single-touch keys. Comboing multimedia functions via Fn key or configuring them in the window manager is a worse option in an extended high-speed productive situation. Such dedicated multimedia keys are very conveniently placed on this Defender Bern.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fold.defender.ru%2Fimages%2Fproducts%2Frepository%2FK9712-KVG82-0B19S7-M45R.jpg&hash=6dcb25cb1b66ec5502024cab7145916d" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://old.defender.ru/images/products/repository/K9712-KVG82-0B19S7-M45R.jpg)

The round button is meant to screw the volume up and down. It makes perfect sense for a volume button. The only problem with this keyboard is that it's a Defender - noisy and slippery, sometimes said to be of poor manufacture quality.

Some kids may want to have a gaming keyboard. A true gaming keyboard is of durable manufacture, de/reconstructible, with programmable keys and endless lighting options.


And they cost at least a $100. A cheaper option is a poor copy, nothing like that in the video above. This Tracer Kicker, a regular multimedia keyboard, may dupe a beginner gaming enthusiast one single time.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Focdn.eu%2Fimages%2Fskapiec%2FMWI7MDA_%2F8ba43b6d5e3b5e7979d80636eb0fec8e.jpg&hash=dee89da6ab2eefa94c9e05e1dd1f56fc" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://ocdn.eu/images/skapiec/MWI7MDA_/8ba43b6d5e3b5e7979d80636eb0fec8e.jpg)

An affordable middle path among the different keyboard types may be provided by Zalman K300M.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/OCjaG-vwOTY/maxresdefault.jpg)

For people working long hours at keyboard, a handrest may be important. I like how this Modecom 9005 places the multimedia keys accessible for thumbs rather than any other fingers. But I would like the middle set of keys (Home, End, Page Up, Page Down, etc.) to be in three columns a la standard, when I look for a main keyboard.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Ffreetab.eu%2Fsofty%2FENG%2FKeyboards%2Fmc-9005%2Fpictures%2Fmc-9005%25202.JPG&hash=4c89f4e3087cea4549f77f04a697ec5c" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://freetab.eu/softy/ENG/Keyboards/mc-9005/pictures/mc-9005%202.JPG)

Currently I don't know of a better option than Dell KB-522 with detachable handrest.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F610pQnJn5YL._SL1200_.jpg&hash=b0a459a286f79dba24aa2685fcd5a1e1" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/610pQnJn5YL._SL1200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Sparta on 2016-01-31, 13:46:26
i use any keyboard , as long it works .

for now i use wireless keyboard and wireless mouse .
nothing special , it is just works as intended .
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-01-31, 15:16:21
the keyboard has been drinking...
My version of Tom Waits to explain my typing errors... blessed spell checkers.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2018-03-10, 13:05:26
Dang. A key of a (very cheap, but backlit) keyboard at one of my main workstations got stuck. I thought I'm competent enough to open the keyboard and fix the little problem, but when I opened it, I accidentally broke a flimsy wire therein and now the keyboard is throwaway material. Guess it's high time to buy my first mechanical keyboard.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-03-10, 14:22:28
https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=2927.msg77313#msg77313
I recommend the Motospeed Inflictor CK104 Gaming Mechanical Keyboard.

I don't know if any true competitors have appeared since, but my wife's Motospeed Inflictor CK104 is still an excellent choice. The current model Das is probably no worse than mine, but it's up to something like €150 now. There are also new buckling springs, see here (https://www.getdigital.de/shop/mechanische-tastaturen/nuetzliches/computer-zubehoer-und-hardware). I have an original Dutch Model M from '92 or so (was in use up to the late '90s at my parents' office; you wouldn't know it, excellent durability and build quality) but I personally think buckling springs are overrated. I mean, they're not bad or anything, and certainly superior to rubber domes... I just prefer your regular Cherry-style switches.

Most competitors in the same price range as the Motospeed Inflictor CK104 speak of nonsense like "mechanical feel." There are some that might be slightly cheaper to be found on DX/GearBest/AliExpress that also look legit, particularly the "Metoo" brand. Also the Das Keyboard Division Zero X40 seems to be on sale for €25 on GetDigital.de at the moment. I haven't researched the build quality or the switches and I don't know what shipping to Estonia would be, but given that Das is still (to my knowledge) a respectable brand it certainly sounds interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3fbtoUVwms

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/ can be useful for information but it's full of people who think something like this (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/83dqun/a_pearl_for_valentines_3/) makes for a good keyboard. I think tenkeyless can potentially make a lot of sense (particularly if you have a separate, freely positionable numpad) but hiding a lot of functionality behind modifier keys just puts more stress on your hands.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2018-03-10, 15:31:16
(https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1Oc9FQVXXXXccXpXXq6xXFXXXj/New-Original-Full-Key-Unlimited-Motospeed-Inflictor-CK104-Mechanical-Keyboard-with-Switch-Backlight-and-Anti-Ghosting.jpg)

Yup, looks perfect. But where to buy, other than Aliexpress? (shipping below €3, i.e. tolerable, delivery 15+ days, not quite tolerable)

And yes, I noticed the eery "mechanical feel" detail on some offers too.

I ordered Tacens MK-4, available in Estonia in a snap, some pennies above €40. We'll see how bad it is.

(https://static1.nordic.pictures/11889308-thickbox_default/mechanical-gaming-keyboard-tacens-mars-gaming-mk-4-red.jpg)

If Tacens is too atrocious, I will change to the equal-priced Modecom Hammer, available at the same shop.

(https://allegro.stati.pl/AllegroIMG/PRODUCENCI/MODECOM/Volcano%20Hammer/f7.jpg)
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-03-10, 17:04:08
Yup, looks perfect. But where to buy, other than Aliexpress? (shipping below €3, i.e. tolerable, delivery 15+ days, not quite tolerable)
I think my wife got hers from Gearbest. But yes, that's probably no faster. I'm operating on the assumption that everyone has a few spare rubber domes lying around, I suppose.

The Modecom looks interesting. Couldn't really find much info on the Tacens.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2018-03-10, 19:00:11
I'm operating on the assumption that everyone has a few spare rubber domes lying around, I suppose.
I actually have spare keyboards, but currently too busy to wait. Probably a mistake to be busy...

Couldn't really find much info on the Tacens.
Really? Surely you know how to look stuff up on YT. For example, here's everything about the lights https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT4dmusPZHY

I would better like the idea of having a selection of uniform colours (like Motospeed Inflictor CK104 has) but maybe I will find the distinctly coloured keylines practical. We'll see. The biggest issue is how loud it will be. My spare Dell KB-522 is a good baseline.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-03-10, 19:06:02
Surely you know how to look stuff up on YT.
Fine, fine, I couldn't quickly find much in a format that doesn't require watching a video.

The biggest issue is how loud it will be. My spare Dell KB-522 is a good baseline.
Depends on the switches. "Blues" (real and imitations) are not quiet. I don't find them bothersome, although I use browns myself.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2018-03-11, 08:02:19
Modecom Hammer's page says:
Quote from: http://modecom.com/en/volcano-hammer/
...available in three alternatives with different switches. Switches available:
• blue switches providing extraordinary accuracy, convenience in use and high-pitched clicking sound;
• red smooth linear switches with constant resistance all the way and no clicky sound;
• brown switches with noticeable actuation but more quiet than blue switches.
All of the variants are available at my closest shop too, so I can choose. I'd probably go for browns, because I like it that it says "quiet" (I really like how quiet my Dell KB-522 is). But the MK-4 I already ordered is supposed to have reds.

Edit: And I found out that all of them (Inflictor, Hammer and MK-4 (http://www.marsgaming.eu/en/keyboards/mk4-gaming-keyboard_mk4r)) use so-called Outemu switches. So, not Cherry MX switches. Maybe in a decade or so I will know what the difference is.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2018-03-15, 10:33:57
The biggest issue is how loud it will be.
Actually my biggest worry was whether it would lit up at all under Linux. My former keyboard who died had to be lit up by xset led 3 and this was the only way and the only setting it recognised.

Now I can declare that MK4 has all the power and magic of lighting programmed in itself. It can display all the variant lights just by virtue of having electricity and requires no special commands from Linux.

The mechanics of the keys still need some time of getting used to. Red switches register easily, whereas I am used to pressing the keys all the way to the bottom, and these keys have a rather long ride to the bottom. And the keyboard seems to have a considerably greater height from the table surface.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2018-03-29, 10:32:01
Now I've tried a mechanical keyboard with red switches (linear non-click) and another with brown switches (tactile non-click) and my verdict is: What a bunch of overhyped nonsense. Both of them.

The verdict applies when you are not a snobby expert typist. I'm sure snobby expert typists can see and make use of the value in some of those keyboards, but given my own particular conditions I can only see that there could be some limited use, but there's hardly a chance to make full use of it. For example, I have several workdesks. If I want the same typing experience on them all, I have to buy the same gear for them all. Not really feasible.

It could be considered practically useful that mechanical keyboards may have better manufacturing quality overall. This applies to my MK4 (red switches) and I have decided to keep it - just for the excellent manufacturing quality, not for the typing experience.

I also tried Modecom Hammer (brown switches) and, while undeniably a mechanical keyboard, it was as if intentionally made to reduce the experience to "membrane feel". The tactile feedback was there in the brown switches, but it was mushy and provided no detectable advantage over some of the membrane keyboards I have. And Modecom Hammer is noticeably worse in manufacturing compared to MK4.

Both keyboards are loud as hell when you are not used to type lightly. And even when you are typing with utmost care to the precise register point, there's much collateral noise. If you want silence, make your pick among membrane keyboards.

Worst of all, the so-called mechanical keyboards do not provide a truly mechanical typing experience. The experience certainly does not emulate a full-mechanical typewriter (and it's good this way, because Remington & friends are horrible). I still have my electronic typewriter (Brother AX-310) and its keyboard is far more pleasant than these so-called mechanical ones. The tactile feedback on the typewriter is a true metal feedback as opposed to the constructed plastic mushiness of the brown Outemu switches on Modecom Hammer. And MK4's easy-sliding red switches are a different universe.

The intros to mechanical keyboards talk long about the linear versus tactile switches as if it were some essential parameter. It may be important, but to me it seems that resistance weight (measured in grams) is considerably more important. Broadly, the harder the better for a typist.

Maybe some old IBM keyboard would provide the experience I am looking for (basically to re-create the Brother AX-310 feel). Definitely not any of these so-called mechanical gaming keyboards. Keyboards have evolved away from typing. Probably the only option is to rewire my typewriter somehow https://youtu.be/EZMNaT2NjXk?t=429

Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-03-29, 12:41:19
Naturally I largely disagree with you. :P

The problem with your average rubber domes is not necessarily the general feeling of pressing a key, but that you have to pound down to make sure your keypress is actually registered. As far as the comparison to mechanical typewriters goes, that's not unlike a mechanical typewriter. Yet perhaps ironically, pounding down on a rubber dome wears it down even quicker, while a mechanical keyboard can take a lot of abuse.

You can order a 100-pack of so-called o-rings from the likes of AliExpress for something like 60 cents if you want to pound. I wouldn't say mine is that loud without though. /shrugs

Part of a slightly bigger loudness when bottoming out comes from the sturdy steel plate that's also responsible for most of the weight.

The intros to mechanical keyboards talk long about the linear versus tactile switches as if it were some essential parameter.
Tactile switches give you better feedback as to when the key was activated precisely so you don't have to pound them down all the way. It's basically a soft bottom to your press. Linear switches are basically exactly the same in feeling as a decent rubber dome except they barely wear down and keypresses will register more reliably since not bottoming out hard enough is not a cause of failure. The distinction is definitely important.

Worst of all, the so-called mechanical keyboards do not provide a truly mechanical typing experience.
Buckling springs feel more typewriter-like. I'm not the biggest fan but I still wouldn't part with mine for less than a few hundred. You should be able to get a reasonable used model for about €60 and they've recently started manufacturing new models (https://www.getdigital.de/Buckling-Spring-Keyboard-Ultra-Classic-White.html) again. Depending on your perspective you could say they come with annoying Windows and context menu keys that mine predates by half a decade or you could say they come with all of the requisite modern amenities.

Brother AX-310
Presumably a high-quality rubber dome. See p. 26 of this document (http://support.brother-usa.com/Virdata/Content/en-US/Typewriters/Technical/PartsManual/PM_AX310_AX325_GX_6750_GX6750SP_GX8250_ML_100_300_SX_4000_EN_5673.PDF).

Both keyboards are loud as hell when you are not used to type lightly.
That is the key though. With a rubber dome you're forced to pound down, which makes the overall typing experience comparatively worse. And indeed, I don't get the full experience out of my keyboard by a long shot. Every time after using another keyboard (e.g., on my laptop) I'm back to typing too heavily again for at least a little while.

I'm not really sure about your point regarding the same experience though. Rubber domes differ greatly in quality among themselves as well.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2018-03-29, 13:23:40
The problem with your average rubber domes is not necessarily the general feeling of pressing a key, but that you have to pound down to make sure your keypress is actually registered. As far as the comparison to mechanical typewriters goes, that's not unlike a mechanical typewriter. Yet perhaps ironically, pounding down on a rubber dome wears it down even quicker, while a mechanical keyboard can take a lot of abuse.
Well, the rubber-dome keyboards I have, they are quite nice on average. You definitely don't have to pound any of them. I can't imagine why would you even think of pounding the low-profile ones, but the high-profile ones don't require any pounding either. All they require is pushing (as opposed to pouding) the key all the way down, which sort of effortlessly happens by itself, at least given the way I type.

The issue with mechanical keyboards is that when pressed they same way all the way down, they clack loud as hell, and even when you touch them lightly, they are apparently irreversibly noisy. The noise is somewhat an issue for me. Dell KB-522 is a good baseline for a silent keyboard, even when you pound it (which you don't have to do).

You can order a 100-pack of so-called o-rings from the likes of AliExpress for something like 60 cents if you want to pound. I wouldn't say mine is that loud without though. /shrugs
I have watched some YT videos about them. The rings only make you think they dampen the noise. And they are very much producer-specific - one type of rings for Cherry MX's, another for Outemus. And not available across the street = not worth it.

Part of a slightly bigger loudness when bottoming out comes from the sturdy steel plate that's also responsible for most of the weight.
Which is why it was good that I could compare the aluminum-built MK4 with all-plastic Hammer. Both are equally noisy, maybe MK4 a bit more, but I like the sound of metal better.

Tactile switches give you better feedback as to when the key was activated precisely so you don't have to pound them down all the way. It's basically a soft bottom to your press. Linear switches are basically exactly the same in feeling as a decent rubber dome except they barely wear down and keypresses will register more reliably since not bottoming out hard enough is not a cause of failure. The distinction is definitely important.
I agree that the difference sounds important and in theory the idea is very good. But I did not find it workable in practice. Both the reds and the browns are touchy-sensitive, they react way too lightly, so the "feedback" makes no practical difference.

I realised that with some practice I would be able to learn to push just 2-3 mm even on the reds. Regardless of the feedback, I can learn to not press the keys to the bottom, but to travel lightly on top of them.

And here's a key point: To travel lightly on top of the keyboard is not what people do with typewriters, mechanical or electronic. These new mechanical keyboards are an entirely new product. There's nothing really mechanical about them, but they are marketed as if taking you back to the age before membranes and rubber-domes. False marketing. Anyway, for me it's somewhat interesting to learn to type this way and I am willing to give it a try.

But I know there are more switches than just reds and browns. For example blacks are said to be heavier. They may alter the overall picture. I have not tried heavier ones yet, but for now from my perspective it seems that heaviness is a more important parameter then tactility/linearity.

Buckling springs feel more typewriter-like. I'm not the biggest fan but I still wouldn't part with mine for less than a few hundred. You should be able to get a reasonable used model for about €60 and they've recently started manufacturing new models (https://www.getdigital.de/Buckling-Spring-Keyboard-Ultra-Classic-White.html) again.
Maybe some day I will give one of those a try too. The problem with them all is that they are not easily found and I am not a typist of the sort who should be heavily invested in this. My work involves much more mousing (copy-paste and drag&drop) than typing, so I spend much of my time with the  trackball (there's one on every workdesk). And the trackballs have their own buttons. It's actually awkward to switch between the mechanical keyboard and the trackball. From my perspective, the ideal keyboard would in fact have the same type of keys as the buttons on the trackball.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-03-29, 14:04:09
All they require is pushing (as opposed to pouding) the key all the way down, which sort of effortlessly happens by itself, at least given the way I type.
That's simply the process I mean by pounding. Having to press it down all the way to the bottom really gets in the way of speedy, comfortable typing. Just like how it gets in the way of speedy writing on a typewriter.

On a real typewriter I have to be careful not to jam it. Obviously I lack experience to a degree but I doubt it's realistically possible to go much beyond ~200 cpm. On my electronic typewriter I can type a whole A4 in less than a fifth of the time it takes the typewriter to type it. I'm surprised it has a memory large enough to buffer the rest of the page, but it does. I'm limited by its typing speed, not by my own. On an average rubber dome I can type either accurate or fast, which is almost more annoying than jamming.

One a mechanical keyboard I can just type. The mechanics don't get in the way.

(Yes, the name is kind of dumb. There's no such thing as a keyboard that isn't mechanical. The closest is perhaps those new switches that work with light. Mechanical in this context basically means it has a spring as well as a switch that makes contact without pressing all the way down. So those switches that work with light actually quality as mechanical.)

You should be able to tell right here on the forum if I typed on my laptop or my desktop. Missing keystrokes strongly hint toward my laptop.

And not available across the street = not worth it.
They are available across the street, but for €15.

To travel lightly on top of the keyboard is not what people do with typewriters, mechanical or electronic.
Of course not. These are computer keyboards. They're much, much, much better than a typewriter, no matter how amazing my dad's completely mechanical Brother typewriter (not electronic) might be.[1] Buckling springs were developed for people who like typewriters.

I'm a member of a younger generation that says f*ck this typewriter imitation, why would I want that. :) I want light, elegant typing. Many people do, hence the popularity of chiclets. They don't require pounding in any kind of absolute sense, but they do require pounding in the sense that you can feel like you're pressing them down yet they still don't register. Hence accuracy or speed.

If you grew up on a mechanical typewriter, then perhaps pounding down properly feels as natural as can be, but you are almost certainly sacrificing comfort, speed, or both.

but they are marketed as if taking you back to the age before membranes and rubber-domes. False marketing.
It's not false marketing. This is how most computer keyboards used to be. My IBM Model M is one of the many millions manufactured of one the most common keyboards of the '80s and early '90s, before rubber domes became more common. Rubber domes have always existed, but they didn't take over until the mid-'90s if not later. But anyway, only buckling springs are marketed as taking you back to the era of buckling springs.

Besides which, the same Cherry MX switches in my keyboard (and all the current Chinese clones) have been around since the mid-'80s as well. That makes them younger than rubber domes and buckling springs, but it might very well be true that they were most popular in the late '80s and early '90s. (And now from the mid 2010s.) So they can definitely be like the nostalgic keyboard from your youth if you're under 50.

From my perspective, the ideal keyboard would in fact have the same type of keys as the buttons on the trackball.
Funny, I've been thinking about doing the exact opposite: buying or soldering keyboard switches into mouse buttons.

I would buy something like this (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DIY-OSU-Game-Acrylic-2-Key-Keyboard-USB-2-0-Backlit-Cherry-Mechanical-Keyboard-with-Light/32794433295.html) in a heartbeat.
I've used other typewriters, but they weren't nearly as nice as the portable Brother.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-03-29, 14:15:36
Also, and while this is not technically a problem with rubber domes per se, there's a large contingent of cheap rubber domes that ghost if you type too quickly. So it'll either register keys you didn't type or simply miss keystrokes that you did type.

And I just realized my laptop keyboard suffers from ghosting. Which confounds and confuses the generic rubber dome trouble. There are just too many ways for those BEEPers to miss keystrokes.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2018-03-29, 14:29:01
If you grew up on a mechanical typewriter, then perhaps pounding down properly feels as natural as can be, but you are almost certainly sacrificing comfort, speed, or both.
Since I never had any speed, I am not sacrificing it either. And I have my own ideas about comfort. For example I am able to doze over my membrane keyboard (hands first and then the head) so that none of the keys registers. Now that's comfort! I have not found a way to do the same on the MK4.

And I just realized my laptop keyboard suffers from ghosting.
This is to do with the electronics of the keyboard, not with the mechanics. There are anti-ghosting keyboards among membrane/rubber-dome ones. And my typewriter was apparently built to memorise the sequence pretty far down the line. Occasionally it happens that I type more than a line and then the printing on the paper follows without missing anything. I see you are saying basically the same.
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2021-04-28, 02:33:43
I remember when I gave up my IBM AT keyboard... (Steel case! and keys that felt like the then not-so-old Selectric typewriters.) I'd used it with so many machines! But becoming enamored with Macs led me in another direction. My original Mac chiclet keyboard took the barest of sips of my coffee and has not worked since...
It'a replacement (...after a brief time making do with my old iMac's USB keyboard), a Logitech K 270 worked well; until it too tried some of my coffee... It's been replaced by a MK 235, which despite being smaller works better -- for me: It has in it's upper right corner a space free of keys. Since I smartened up and gave my desk top a rest from keyboards and such, I've become quite comfortable typing with the keyboard over my knees! (The arms of my ancient rocking chair -and my thighs- serve as cushioning to prevent CTS and other strains.
(The K 270 recovered, eventually; had to slap it around some at first...:)
The best/cheapest mouse I've found is the surf onn. sold at Walmart.

Of course, the kids in the family use gaming equipment... :)
Title: Re: Keyboards!
Post by: ersi on 2021-04-28, 06:10:50
Here's my home office (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=474.msg82921#msg82921), the one I use most.