The DnD Sanctuary

Forum-related => Forum Administration => Topic started by: string on 2014-02-06, 11:23:46

Title: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: string on 2014-02-06, 11:23:46
In order to broaden our appeal and attract new blood, I suggest we have a new Category in addition to

(which are now the only categories that a Guest can view)
namely Hobbies where such things as Music, Literature, train spotting, guns, photography etc could be discussed.

The purpose of this thread is to test out the idea before it's implemented to see whether the membership likes the idea and how much support it would be likely to get.

I think the addition of such a category would give added attraction for the site. Although I'm not a Hobby person myself, many are and I think it would provide a useful outlet.

Any comments?
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-02-06, 11:26:14
How about "Hobbies and Games"? A thread like this (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=122.0) would belong there.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: ersi on 2014-02-06, 11:32:44
How about Hobbies and Entertainment?

Personally, I would be happy with just two fun categories:
- Central
- Lounge
in addition to the serious non-fun Forum Admin, but since we already have also
- Browsers and Technology
all new categories should, imho, follow the spirit. Make it a two-word naming convention or such.

Hence Hobbies and Entertainment. Frenzie's games also have a place there.

And we have already some threads to move there, right? Such as maps.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: string on 2014-02-06, 11:36:32
@ersi - Classification can be done in different ways certainly, but the idea is to give these things a place to live and attract people who don't want, initially at least, to blunder around in the middle of people discussing the great affairs of State and Religion.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-02-06, 11:41:07
Sorry, haven't read up all that. I don't think that for now, further specialisation's needed. Apart from our 35ness, there's the thing that, trying to procrust topics into narrower categories leaves many ambiguous in that taxonomisational sense.
I used to participate in a Russian forum that had such fractioned sectioning. And often I thought that many human issues are not and cannot be so specifically subdivided.
Frans - in the first days - told us that he would create a new board as long as there'd have emerged a good bunch of sensible topics on a certain field. I got that and I tend to hold that.
Apart from that, as I've already noted, we're 35 yet - a handful of which are not even active enough, and I reckon we should
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-02-06, 11:45:23
How about "Hobbies and Games"? A thread like this (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=122.0) would belong there.
That rather goes to a "blog" category.;)
Hence Hobbies and Entertainment. Frenzie's games also have a place there.

And we have already some threads to move there, right? Such as maps.
I created that thread not for fun.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.myopera.com%2FJoshL%2FSml%2Fnono.gif&hash=e1db3819ab63ee31c3635aa25deee230" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://files.myopera.com/JoshL/Sml/nono.gif)
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: string on 2014-02-06, 11:47:08
The Whatever was a place-holder so could be another word of course.

Hobbies and Entertainment?  Hobbies and Games?

Hobbies and Distractions?  Hobbies and Relaxation? Hobbies and Diversions? Hobbies and Pastimes?
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-02-06, 11:48:16
We already have "relaxation" by "The Lounge".
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: string on 2014-02-06, 11:50:33
Josh - I would not call having four topics as being excessive splitting.

If we have small ambitions that is precisely what we will remain.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-02-06, 11:56:48
I would not call having four topics...
They are boards.
If we have small ambitions that is precisely what we will remain.
That's not about bumbitions - but about constructiveness.
Do you have an idea how those over"splitted" forums work? And we already split discussions into threads - are we ok following them? ???
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: string on 2014-02-06, 12:00:33
Well it will be interesting to see what people think about the idea and the rationale behind it.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Luxor on 2014-02-06, 14:56:15
Hobbies and Entertainment?  Hobbies and Games?

Hobbies and Entertainment.


Don't know if there would be many posts about hobbies but you never know as that covers such a large field. Would you for instance class an interest in computers and all things PC as a hobby or are they a necessity in this day and age?


Entertainment is good as it covers all media e.g. Movies, music and games (as in video games that is, not the word games from the lounge)
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-02-06, 15:01:45
I was also thinking about, for instance, boardgames (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabletop_(web_series)). Although I don't know how much interest there is in that.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Luxor on 2014-02-06, 15:09:16
I was also thinking about, for instance, boardgames (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabletop_(web_series)). Although I don't know how much interest there is in that.

I did think about boardgames  but couldn't decide if they would be classed as hobbies or entertainment. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Thinking2.gif)
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-02-06, 15:15:06
Would you for instance class an interest in computers and all things PC as a hobby or are they a necessity in this day and age?

If it were, I doubt you'd see pieces like this: http://coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-computers/

I did think about boardgames  but couldn't decide if they would be classed as hobbies or entertainment. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Thinking2.gif)

It hardly matters when the board's dedicated to both. :P
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: string on 2014-02-06, 15:28:44
@Luxor, Frenzie - Initially I reckon it would take time, unless they were lucky, for people with similar hobbies to find their way to "Hobbies". But I think it would be easier than in the past. I noticed, in the old D&D, that obscure subjects (minority interests) tend to get lost on the plethora of subjects that mainstream DnD produced, Possibly (and ironically because the subject itself has been controversial) guns could be a popular subject since I know there are are at least two people who like them and collect them in the forum. Cooking maybe also - it appears as as a sort of debating valium in D&D/DnD then there are the various sports - football (of any type) -- many possibilities.

One Thread per Hobby is what I think would evolve for the idea to work.

Computers? That's difficult to decide - my instinct is not to have that as a Hobby subject because it is so linked into the Browsers & Technology arena.


I'm a bit lukewarm of putting a title that has some sort of Game inference because I don't want to detract from The Lounge which is very productive and a good focus. Maybe a discussion of computer games - which is best and so on but interactive stuff more properly I think left in the Lounge I think.

But that's something that could be tuned, initially on a case by case basis.

Maybe Hobbies and Pursuits would be OK? 

But then the accompanying description can give more guidance.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-02-06, 15:31:57
Our site is a hobby.
Media may mean
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: string on 2014-02-06, 15:55:47
You're full of piss and vinegar today Josh - lighten up!  :)
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-02-06, 15:57:33
Our site is a hobby.

Hobbies other than posting on forums wouldn't make a good title, now would it? ;)
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: string on 2014-02-06, 16:03:24
 ;D
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-02-06, 16:06:20
Hobbies other than posting on forums wouldn't make a good title, now would it?
What?
???
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Luxor on 2014-02-06, 17:33:06
It hardly matters when the board's dedicated to both.

That's true right enough. I was thinking that maybe they were going to be child boards under another category. My bad as they say.

Computers? That's difficult to decide - my instinct is not to have that as a Hobby subject because it is so linked into the Browsers & Technology arena.

I would leave computers under Browsers & Technology too, I was just thinking aloud there really.
Blame my wife who still tells people "computers" are my "hobby" even now after more than 30 years of using them. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/FacePalm2.gif)
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-02-07, 11:57:19
What IS a hobby, anyway? The "definition" of each particular one would be subjective.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: string on 2014-02-07, 12:53:10

What IS a hobby, anyway? The "definition" of each particular one would be subjective.
Everyone knows what a Hobby is. But what exactly is your point? Maybe I did not make it clear that underneath the blanket of Hobbie & TBD would be a number of threads, one for each Hobby or pastime, not one single thread encompassing all such activities. Each would be an area where people would exchange ideas or explanations or tips about facets of their hobby.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-02-07, 13:10:30
I say "Hobby versus General Knowledge".
There are ACTIVITIES! And each one particular guy considers a certain activity subjectively.
And after all, separating any dedicated area makes sense after a crucial number of potential participants has achieved. While for now - what do you have? Is there any at all group of users here to hold a similar interest in whatever other than politics or joshing at each other?;)
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: string on 2014-02-07, 13:34:48
I say "Hobby versus General Knowledge".
There are ACTIVITIES! And each one particular guy considers a certain activity subjectively.
And after all, separating any dedicated area makes sense after a crucial number of potential participants has achieved. While for now - what do you have? Is there any at all group of users here to hold a similar interest in whatever other than politics or joshing at each other?;)


I refer you to what I wrote in the OP.
The purpose of this thread is to test out the idea before it's implemented to see whether the membership likes the idea and how much support it would be likely to get.


So please stop stating something which was already stressed at the beginning.

As for your other remarks, in as much as I can decipherer what you've written, the character of any discourse on a Hobby/pastime, whether it is gun collecting or playing the violin is likely to be quite different to the sort of moralising that goes on in DnD Central in that it would be a place for enthusiasts to swap experiences on a shared passion away from moral or political judgements or whimsical side issues.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-02-07, 13:39:51
We have "The Lounge". I myself consider the area as it is already outlined by the Creator (not god yet): "light-hearted" discussions. So the "Hobbies" is already covered by that - unless you want a "child board" there...
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-02-07, 23:47:40
Any comments?

Yes.
Don't discuss, do it.

If it works, fine, if it doesn't, patience.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-02-08, 01:11:56
Speaking as a person who has built and operates radio-controlled boats, I wonder if a "Hobbies" board would attract enough interest to keep it worth its while. It might be something to make it a sub-forum of the Lounge and see how it goes, I suppose.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2014-02-09, 05:28:04
I am all for a Hobbies section. Games too.

For instance, as @String has alluded to, SF and I have/collect guns.
Video gaming is also fairly popular, and would make a great addition/subforum to the Hobbies section. (Note, I don't have the time I used to, to play them, but I still have a fairly good knowledge on gaming).

So, count me in as a "Yea" vote on the Hobbies section proposed by @String.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-02-09, 13:29:00
Yes.
Don't discuss, do it.

I like that. ;)
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-02-09, 13:55:21
Then what?
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: string on 2014-02-09, 14:52:21
Based on all the opinions expressed and although it's confirmed that participation will be slow, I think it worthwhile trying this and seeing if it develops over time.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Luxor on 2014-02-09, 15:03:04
I think it worthwhile trying this and seeing if it develops over time.

Yep! If it doesn't gather any interest then I'm sure Frenzie can make it disappear as quickly as it appeared, without any problem.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-03-19, 15:22:32
Arguing against this "Whatever" -- I KNEW you were destined to misuse it.
All the fucking Sanctuary is mere entertainment - with some minor exception of a couple of boards on tech issues.
What does "beer" do in the "Central", for instance? Really? The entire fucking Lounge is pure entertainment...
You created the board - and didn't think about consequences... Nor that that was a mere duplication of what we had already had. :hao:
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: string on 2014-03-19, 15:55:22
Misuse - what misuse? You are not being very clear.

You are entitled to your opinion of course but I wish you would be more polite about it.

Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Luxor on 2014-03-19, 17:28:31
Josh you are being just a wee bit over dramatic about a thread that was moved to the correct board.
Nobody died, worse things happen at sea etc. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/shakeheadno.gif)
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-03-19, 17:51:53
Josh you...
Don't.
Don't josh me.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-03-19, 18:01:55
The Lounge is entertainment, but it's not about entertainment. More specifically, in The Lounge you might play the stupid question, stupid answer (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=38.0) game, while in H&E you'd talk about how pleasurable it is to satisfy your id's unconscious desires while participating. (Disregarding for the sake of argument that Freud was a quack.)
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Macallan on 2014-03-19, 18:39:39
I think we may need a forum for nothing but meta-discussions ( although that would qualify as a hobby for some, and as entertainment for others ) :left:
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: tt92 on 2014-03-19, 18:53:59

Misuse - what misuse? You are not being very clear.

You are entitled to your opinion of course but I wish you would be more polite about it.

When the web was new, half the world's adolescents rushed to post unimaginative bursts of NAUGHTY WORDS. Words that would have shocked their parents. Words that you sometimes see scratched into wet concrete pavements. Most of them soon got it out of their systems , but some never did.
Plus ça change
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-03-19, 21:58:20
What's the problem here?

We have an administration. Administrations administrates.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-03-20, 15:15:27
1. This entire site may be considered entertainment.
2. The Lounge is a marginal area between the "Entertainment" and "Central". "Light-hearted banter" may be considered by the author of a new thread with a perspective: discussing both the funny sides of the question in topic AND involving more serious aspects there too. For example, having launched a certain thread there, soon later I came across some news on the media business involved. I could've posted that in a thread in the Lounge - not being "entertainment" pure, but at the same time having the discussion "light-hearted".
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-05-19, 09:00:56
I think we should rename the board.
1. As it is now ("H&E"), we have a topical/semantic conflict on our hands.
2. The hobbies won't suffer. Quite the opposite, they'll be adjusted with the whole spectrum of topics directly related to them and extending to 1) craftsmanship on one wing 2) and the Arts - on the other. And they won't be messed up with entertainment - which already is and have ALWAYS been covered in the Lounge.
Reasons: e.g., a guy interested in photography, can be whoever he is, for example, an artist, or an amateur, or a technician being in with the huge lot of that technical stuff involved (cameras, focuses, pixels, brands, optics, whatnot); e.g., a guy interested in music, may be 1) a listener, 2) an amateur, 3) a professional whoever (cellist, singer, name it), 4) a businessman in the industry, etc., etc., etc. Well, now if we have the board renamed, there won't be any conflict in creating all sorts of DIY, craftsmanship and artist topics in it, nor any derision as to be considered "just a hobbyist".

My variants are in the poll created in an irrelevant thread (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=130.0).
For example, we could have the board named "Hobbies and Crafts" (without arts for now), or "Arts, Crafts & Hobbies".:)
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-05-19, 19:28:20
We could just leave it the way it is. "Hobbies and Entertainment" works well enough, whether you're building a dollhouse replica of the Kremlin (why you would want to do that is beyond me, but to each his own) or spout off about the new Godzilla movie-- it fits.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-05-19, 19:44:50
:faint:
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member [3] on 2014-05-20, 06:38:09
Basic skills are the same in any art and craftsmanship area - for a pro and amateur. Whether it's music, radiodevices' construction, whatnot.
And I see Arts not pertaining to entertainment - but rather to human culture. And spirit.
Say, Michael, is gospel entertainment?
And media business is not so much entertaining - being a business, enterprise. Think about news broadcasting?
Is broadcasting news a sort of entertainment?
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: string on 2014-05-20, 10:27:17
@Josh/lincoln - everyone is entitled to an opinion but please stop flogging this dead horse; this thread is about Hobbies, not Hobby Horses, and going on and on about the same boring argument is really tiresome.

The discussion about the title has come and gone, it's decided. Try and live with it.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member [2] on 2014-05-20, 11:24:10
THE discussion is not over, you saw my post, and ********************, or in plain words, relax and ****.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member [2] on 2014-05-20, 11:27:35
 A user can report a post, but a user can't report a post's absence. But in this case I am reporting it right here right now.
If somebody's unable to discuss any other "way" than deleting questions etc., ***** and that person should not show up before my eyes ever any more. Full stop.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Luxor on 2014-05-20, 11:32:55
Discussing is fine Josh. Commenting about another members use (or lack of) punctuation is not.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-05-20, 11:34:45
Perhaps commenting on punctuation could be a thread in H&E? :P

Anyway, it seems to me you can that say the same thing about crafts as about hobbies if you're inclined to take a negative view about activities that don't (directly) bring in any money.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member [2] on 2014-05-20, 11:46:38
It's unimportant and even irrelevant if it brings money or not if you, say, discuss some basic techniques or like that.
The basics are the same - you saw the OP (didn't you?).
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member [2] on 2014-05-20, 11:49:12
Discussing is fine Josh.
I'm not at all fine.
:faint:, though...
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-05-20, 12:19:21

Perhaps commenting on punctuation could be a thread in H&E? :P

Anyway, it seems to me you can that say the same thing about crafts as about hobbies if you're inclined to take a negative view about activities that don't (directly) bring in any money.


Even that sorta depends. People build dollhouses for fun, other people build dollhouses for profit. Same materials, but if you expect somebody else to buy your dollhouse you'll have to put better craftsmanship into it.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Luxor on 2014-05-20, 13:08:34

Discussing is fine Josh.
I'm not at all fine.
:faint: , though...


Not the smartest riposte. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/rolleyes.gif)
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member [2] on 2014-05-20, 13:43:00
All I could. The Fastest Delivery - Josh, Josh & Co.:P
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Macallan on 2014-05-21, 08:55:19


Perhaps commenting on punctuation could be a thread in H&E? :P

Anyway, it seems to me you can that say the same thing about crafts as about hobbies if you're inclined to take a negative view about activities that don't (directly) bring in any money.


Even that sorta depends. People build dollhouses for fun, other people build dollhouses for profit. Same materials, but if you expect somebody else to buy your dollhouse you'll have to put better craftsmanship into it.

Or make what others like ( and pay money for ) instead of what you like. There goes the hobby.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-05-21, 09:45:36
What about construction/building, renovation/refurbishing and that sort? Is building a house for yourself a hobby? Unpaid - but not.
Then planting. I don't ever count it as a hobby. Because if planting is just a hobby for somebody, that means that they don't actually care for the cared - it's like having a dog for fun, for enjoying yourself, which is wrong by default.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-05-21, 13:51:32
Josh, do you have any idea what effort some people put into their hobbies? You make it sound like something somebody does and then forgets about. For some people it is that, but for others their hobby is pretty serious. You might spend a little bit of time learning the difference before you anger somebody who is building a model of a B-17 and has troubled himself to get it exactly as the Memphis Belle looked on its final mission over Germany.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-05-21, 13:58:24
I know your hobby is pretty serious, Mike.  Just the usual meaning of the word (especially when coupled with "entertainment", huh?)...
So what about just naming it that "Hobbies and Whatever" instead of all that brainstorm, and that'll be it. :idea:
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Luxor on 2014-05-21, 14:05:54
So what about just naming it that "Hobbies and Whatever" instead of all that brainstorm, and that'll be it.

No one has a problem with what it's called except for you.
Heed strings wise words.
The discussion about the title has come and gone, it's decided. Try and live with it.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-05-21, 14:10:54
Heed strings...
I have none.

Heed ... wise words.
They are not wise.
And they have already been tried to argue with. Though the post was deleted soon.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Luxor on 2014-05-21, 14:27:57
They are not wise.

Nothing is wise if it goes against your opinion. Life's not fair, but that's how it goes.

And they have already been tried to argue with. Though the post was deleted soon.

There was no attempt to argue, it was a puerile comment about punctuation and nothing more.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-05-21, 14:33:54
Nothing is wise if it goes against your opinion.
My "opinion" was chewed in that first post.
String didn't get the right idea, then "was wise" about something else he thought my post had been about.
There was no attempt to argue, it was a puerile comment about punctuation and nothing more.
Partially it's true.
Except for the fact ("oh! who cares - opinion!") that I noticed string hadn't got the idea in it. Besides punctuation (which is crucial "in case" our forum language is English and not a Himbuktu).
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Luxor on 2014-05-21, 16:36:35
Besides punctuation (which is crucial "in case" our forum language is English and not a Himbuktu).

Punctuation like grammar, doesn't need to be pointed out, commented on, corrected or highlighted by you or anyone else. Regardless if the forum language is English or not. People make mistakes when typing, live with it, don't let it bother you and don't make an issue of it.
Now may I suggest (before you take a step too far) you use the forum as it's intended and let others enjoy the same.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: jax on 2014-05-23, 13:14:17
Since this thread seems to be about name calling, namely what to call a sub-forum, "& entertainment" doesn't scan that well to me either.

What about: Hobbies & amusements

One being what you do, the other what you get.

Quote
amuse
late 15c., from M.Fr. amuser "divert, cause to muse," from a "at, to" (but here probably a causal prefix) + muser "ponder, stare fixedly." Sense of "divert from serious business, tickle the fancy of" is recorded from 1630s, but through 18c. the primary meaning was "deceive, cheat" by first occupying the attention. Bemuse retains more of the original meaning.


It is largely a synonym for entertainment, but matches hobbies and the theme (?) better.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-05-24, 08:23:16
I'm not opposed to calling it something quirkier either; e.g., Handicrafts & Amusements. However, I still don't understand the "just a hobby" objection. It seems to me that someone who'd say that would also say it's "just arts and crafts" or "just handicraft" etc.
Title: Re: Hobbies and Whatever
Post by: string on 2014-05-24, 12:21:44
Whatever . . .
;)

Seriously though, it doesn't really matter, there will always be some novel pursuit which does not fit into the title.