The DnD Sanctuary

General => DnD Central => Topic started by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-02-06, 17:59:01

Title: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-02-06, 17:59:01
Portugal is weeping, Geert Wilders Says Netherlands Would Be Better Off if It Left 28-Nation Bloc, France can't compete with Germany, Merkel is pissed at Obama, Belgium is ousting Afgans. Is anybody happy?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-02-06, 19:46:33
Portugal is weeping

Always ridiculous, is that a trade mark of yours?
I see... just a psychiatric obsession... good, that way there's no copyright laws :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2014-02-06, 23:32:09

Portugal is weeping, Geert Wilders Says Netherlands Would Be Better Off if It Left 28-Nation Bloc, France can't compete with Germany, Merkel is pissed at Obama, Belgium is ousting Afgans.


To add insult to injury:
Quote from: Victoria Nuland
Fuck the EU

Victoria Nuland - Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs at the United States Department of State


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSxaa-67yGM#t=89 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSxaa-67yGM#t=89)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: tt92 on 2014-02-07, 05:02:04
Switzerland is making cuckoo clocks.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2014-02-07, 06:12:25
Scotland votes on Independence this year, correct, @String?


Also, I am considering a short vacation to Europe in the coming months. Beware, fellow European DnD'ers!  :trollface:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: string on 2014-02-07, 08:21:45
Scotland votes on Independence this year, correct, @String?
That's what the SNP call Separation. At this point in time Separation does not look like happening, but one can never be certain about emotive things like that.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-03-05, 08:53:23
IMF says oops. IMF admits: we failed to realise the damage austerity would do to Greece (http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/jun/05/imf-underestimated-damage-austerity-would-do-to-greece)
Quote
While the report says a deep recession was unavoidable, it is critical of senior officials in Brussels and European capitals who said Greece would fare better outside the euro. Concerns that Greece could be ejected from the euro and return to the drachma intensified an already febrile situation.

"Confidence was also badly affected by domestic social and political turmoil and talk of a Greek exit from the euro by European policymakers," it said.

Brussels also struggled to co-ordinate its policies with the ECB in Frankfurt, according to the report.

"The Fund made decisions in a structured fashion, while decision-making in the eurozone spanned heads of state and multiple agencies and was more fragmented."

The Greek media recently quoted IMF managing director Christine Lagarde describing 2011 as a "lost year" partly because of miscalculations by the EU and IMF.

The authoritative Kathimerini newspaper said the report identified a number of "mistakes" including the failure of creditors to agree to a restructuring of Greece's debt burden earlier - a failure that had had a disastrous effect on its macroeconomic assumptions.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-03-05, 09:38:17

Scotland votes on Independence this year, correct, @String?


Also, I am considering a short vacation to Europe in the coming months. Beware, fellow European DnD'ers!  :trollface:
??? Back from Canada already! :o
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-03-05, 09:40:19

Scotland votes on Independence this year, correct, @String?
That's what the SNP call Separation. At this point in time Separation does not look like happening, but one can never be certain about emotive things like that.
I'm taking bets. Alex will come back whimpering, tail between legs. Rjhowie will crow like a rooster.  :cheers: (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.netanimations.net%2FChicken_looking_around.gif&hash=bf95679c974d3eb56f4092c3d4dc97eb" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.netanimations.net/Chicken_looking_around.gif)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-03-05, 10:42:29
Scotland votes on Independence this year, correct, @String?
Who's @String?
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-03-05, 11:35:19
??? Back from Canada already! :o


Go Quebec! Vive le Québec libre!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-03-05, 11:39:25
Who's @String?


That would be an array of string (http://perlmeme.org/howtos/data_structures/arrays.html).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-03-05, 13:22:32

Who's @String?


That would be an array of string (http://perlmeme.org/howtos/data_structures/arrays.html).

That's a string theory...don't know if it describes the universe, though. :drunk:

Knit one, perl two.  :D
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-03-05, 13:45:57
Plucking strings sometimes cheers the Universe up (where's UP in the Universe???).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-03-05, 19:48:26
The universe doesn't go up; it gets down (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5XOjnpX3-w).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-03-05, 20:40:33

The universe doesn't go up; it gets down (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5XOjnpX3-w).

They're lip syncing!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-03-05, 20:53:44
They're lip syncing!

I didn't even check if the video had audio. :whistle:

I've heard more Backstreet Boys than I ever wanted to around the turn of the century. Consider yourself Backstreet Rolled.  :devil:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-03-06, 12:25:34

They're lip syncing!

I didn't even check if the video had audio. :whistle:

It did, but I must say that I like Luciano Pavarotti's version better even though the lyrics are in Italian.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Fh2Vh8jwyQA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Fh2Vh8jwyQA)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-03-06, 13:59:10
Unfortunate what is going on in Europe but there are deep problems in America too. It is a world-wide kind of sadness going on. However I must admit that i am now planning a visit to Ulster in Spring and then the Netherlands maybe July. Not sure of where my autumn break will be. So often I have went away for a break and bump into someone I know so maybe this year I may be more lucky. 8)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-03-06, 22:15:52
Kiruna is going on. Formerly the world's largest city is moving.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbcimg.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F73394000%2Fjpg%2F_73394693_mia-stalnacke.jpg&hash=f048b630e1861fa588c17c66b9b2a718" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73394000/jpg/_73394693_mia-stalnacke.jpg)
Kiruna: How to move a town two miles east (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26447507)
Quote
From an anthropological point of view, there is one major concern - the "people in Kiruna who are stuck in old memories", as Walldin puts it.

"You have to find a way to both respect the memories and take care of the people who have been living in limbo in this city for over a decade," she says. "People who had their first kiss on that bench or their first child in that hospital will now see these things totally disappear."

Before anyone can move, LKAB has to buy their existing property, so that they can buy a new one in the new town. But the sums are nightmarish.

"The general idea is for LKAB to purchase people's homes from them at market value plus 25%, and then sell them a property in the new city," says Stenqvist. "But how do you work out what the market value is for a house in a city that doesn't even exist?"
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2014-03-07, 05:34:41
Anthropological is the wrong word there. The problem is social and economic, pretty holistic, and requires a solution accordingly. The market value in this case is the price that buys a new equivalent home in the new place.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-03-07, 08:52:26

Kiruna is going on. Formerly the world's largest city is moving.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbcimg.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F73394000%2Fjpg%2F_73394693_mia-stalnacke.jpg&hash=f048b630e1861fa588c17c66b9b2a718" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73394000/jpg/_73394693_mia-stalnacke.jpg)

Talk about living on the edge.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-03-19, 13:14:17
€1=$1.3917 today.:) Information from my Firefox toolbar;)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-03-28, 15:31:33
Quote from: my Yandex-bar
€1=$1.3765
:)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-01, 07:32:18
European economy guide: Taking Europe's pulse
(http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2014/03/european-economy-guide)EU figures and forecasts.

GDP growth 2014 & 2015
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FAW6QErC.png%3F1&hash=d99fd875d8f51a70d3618a3fb6f3ebf6" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/AW6QErC.png?1)
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FfdfAhlO.png%3F1&hash=aea00eb70b1df2cba6f2486f4646e4a6" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/fdfAhlO.png?1)

Public debt
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F7zDq7iO.png%3F1&hash=fb8b32bd85b4f6bd8d459b70772d2dd0" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/7zDq7iO.png?1)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-01, 08:26:11

European economy guide: Taking Europe's pulse
(http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2014/03/european-economy-guide)EU figures and forecasts.

GDP growth 2014 & 2015
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FAW6QErC.png%3F1&hash=d99fd875d8f51a70d3618a3fb6f3ebf6" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/AW6QErC.png?1)
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FfdfAhlO.png%3F1&hash=aea00eb70b1df2cba6f2486f4646e4a6" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/fdfAhlO.png?1)

Public debt
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F7zDq7iO.png%3F1&hash=fb8b32bd85b4f6bd8d459b70772d2dd0" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/7zDq7iO.png?1)
I see, Ersi's doing great, huh?;)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-02, 11:05:20
Does not necessarily follow. Low public debt means no immediate risk of an austerity party like they have enjoyed in Southern Europe. High GDP growth per head implies good business mood, as businesses on the whole make more money than they did last year. So here Estonia looks better than Cyprus.

By European standards Estonia is relatively poor, measured in GDP/capita, below average but well above bottom.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fs3-ec.buzzfed.com%2Fstatic%2F2014-01%2Fenhanced%2Fwebdr06%2F26%2F14%2Fenhanced-buzz-15220-1390764841-0.jpg&hash=6699c57f16f3c57fe30a9243308dbb47" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/2014-01/enhanced/webdr06/26/14/enhanced-buzz-15220-1390764841-0.jpg)

But that map hides regional differences. This map of "Kaufkraft", which this company translates into purchasing power, but really is disposable income, income after tax:
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimg153.imageshack.us%2Fimg153%2F715%2Fgfkkaufkraft.jpg&hash=2ed3db1d12299367bcbcfb9b083a6771" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/715/gfkkaufkraft.jpg)

The Iron Curtain is clearly still visible economically.

Furthermore Western Europe is significantly more densely populated. GDP density is population density (number of people/km²) times GDP per capita (GDP/number of people) in GDP/km². This map is 15 years old:
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocurrents.info%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F08%2FGDPDensity.jpg&hash=2344c4bb4c65b4195b2de8d4c0e71392" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.geocurrents.info/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/GDPDensity.jpg)

Or country-wise the map could be represented like this (this map is probably of similar age):
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocurrents.info%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F08%2FGDPCartogram.jpg&hash=c511668e778ebcb5de836c67a3943934" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.geocurrents.info/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/GDPCartogram.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-02, 13:06:03
GDP density is population density (number of people/km²) times GDP per capita (GDP/number of people) in GDP/km². /3rd image/
???
I can't get the meaning of that. What's good and bad there!??
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2014-04-02, 13:42:44
Not exactly Europe, whatever - watch out for cats during elections!

Elections in Turkey: Power Cuts in 40 Provinces Caused by a Cat :devil:

Quote
I'm not joking, a cat entered into the transformer.
- Energy Minister Taner Yildiz

source (http://www.aydinlikdaily.com/Energy-Minister-Pulls-Legs-With-Power-Cuts-2766)

Turkish Energy Minister Taner Yildiz omitted to tell if the cat was a black one.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-04-02, 17:16:43

Quote
I'm not joking, a cat entered into the transformer.

- Energy Minister Taner Yildiz

I own two cats and one of them is in league with the devil, so I'm with Yildiz.
There's nothing quite like cat videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=S7b1aLY3tyI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=S7b1aLY3tyI)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2014-04-02, 18:16:24

I see, Ersi's doing great, huh?;)




Does not necessarily follow. ----

The Iron Curtain is clearly still visible economically.

That's right. As I mentioned in another thread, a bunch of worldwide commercial websites (such as Amazon and booking sites) treat Estonia (along with the rest of "Middle Europe") more akin to Russia rather than to EU whose members we supposedly are.

Economy and economics are complicated enough, a matter of perception any way you look (yet perceptions matter a lot), but to complicate things further, there are also demographic and social issues.

For example, Russians in Estonia (i.e. people of Russian ethnicity who are Estonian citizens and residents of Estonia) are relatively happy with life in Estonia. It's because of their point of comparison: Russia. Russians in Estonia compare their life with life in Russia. They watch Russian TV and have relatives in Russia, so they know about it. So they know that it's economically comfier to live in what they call Europe. 

Estonians (i.e. ethnic Estonians) on the other hand are very unhappy. It's because they compare with Finland, Sweden and Germany. Laws here are a hopeless mess. Economy is not on a par. The welfare is appalling. Our government participates in the financial assistance funds to Greece and Portugal whose minimum wages equal our arithmetic average wages! Basic worker and family rights/securities that are normal in the West are denied here (or so we imagine). Etc. Also, there's a deep, dangerously sharp estrangement between the government and the people. This again affects only Estonians, not Russians, because Russians pay hardly any attention to Estonian politics. The only local politics for Russians in Estonia is the occasional whining about the fact that Russian is not the first official language in Estonia, but the whining stops as soon as they remember the economic comparison with Russia again. Estonians have no such relief. The result is massive loss of population, emigration of a bigger scope than evacuation during the last war was.

Now, these issues I mentioned are not shown on any map. Not only because it's hard to measure these ethno-socio-geo-demographic perceptions (or whatever name would be appropriate), but also because it's not politically correct. It's not nice to do racism.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-04-02, 18:52:57
Our government participates in the financial assistance funds to Greece and Portugal whose minimum wages equal our arithmetic average wages!

We need to spend more than you do. Historical responsibilities demands so...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-02, 20:15:27
I don't like Russians... No kidding!..
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-04-03, 10:09:48
Oops! I forgot to post this essential cat video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=S7b1aLY3tyI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=S7b1aLY3tyI)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-04-03, 10:10:43

I don't like Russians... No kidding!..

Who does?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-04-03, 17:18:07
Me.  :yes:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-04-03, 17:58:37

Me.  :yes:

"Quit you like men:be strong"

Well you please put a space following the colon!?! It's making me crazier than usual. :insane:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-04-05, 21:21:59
What's Going on in Europe (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=163.msg8108#msg8108)

Decadence avec elegance.

I wish it could have some elegance and we could finish in grandeur and style, but with bourgeois, nouveau riches and northerners leading, forget it...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-06, 05:27:12
Most decadent countries, according to Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data/best-and-worst/most-decadent-countries). 12 out of 13 top countries on that list are European, Australia the exception at #3.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2014-04-06, 05:36:57
Armenia is not a European country in my opinion. And Estonia did not make it to the top 10? What a shameful performance on yet another list.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-06, 06:08:06
First a slight on the Europeanness of Turkey and now Armenia, next you'll tell me Kyrgyzstan is not European. Australia is probably outside the theatre though.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2014-04-06, 06:37:46
I thought of specifying that I was speaking in geographical terms, but apparently I didn't. Anyway, of course there's a smooth transition from geographical definition to cultural sentiments, so that's what makes it you call it a "slight", even though there are hard facts involved. If facts insult you, blame the facts, not me.

Kyrgyzstan is not European. Neither is Turkey. To me Turkey is not even arguable, even though their tiny geographically European possession makes some people think Turkey is culturally European. Now, those people are plainly insulting all logic and reason.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-06, 06:47:11
Turkey is more European at least than any of the neighbouring LMErn countries.
Is Russia European? Is Greece Asian? Is Israel what?
In such "cultural terms", there's hardly any Atlantic Ocean, huh?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-04-06, 07:06:22
according to Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data/best-and-worst/most-decadent-countries)

What can Bloomberg know about decadence... or about anything at all.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-04-06, 20:21:39
Turkey is more European? Kind of almost ridicules Europe then. This is the country where the Prime Minister tried to stop people having the right to express opinions he doesn't klike on the Net? Now his highest court has contradicted him on this so you can guess what he feels about that. It is directly involved in Syria too. The Amenians who live across the Turkish border in Syria are having a desperate time from the terrorists crossing from wonderful Turkey. Remember this is the same race that had it's own holocaust of a million done in by Turks.

Personally, i don't want Turkey in the EEC. Might be nice for a beach holiday but it is a fruit cake.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2014-04-07, 04:38:49

To me Turkey is not even arguable, even though their tiny geographically European possession makes some people think Turkey is culturally European.

Agreed. So there are things we still can agree on :)
The only thing Turkey might be interesting for the EU is its geostrategic constellation. However this constellation asks also for trouble.
Overstretching the EU with a foreign substance would do more harm than benefit. Besides, the way Erdogan is acting lately, he risks even the preferential partnership Turkey has with the EU.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2014-04-07, 04:46:57

Is Russia European? Is Greece Asian? Is Israel what?

The western part of Russia is as European as Poland for that matter.
BTW, what are you considering yourself for? An Asian? An Israeli? Something I miss?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-07, 09:06:42
BTW, what are you considering yourself for?
Interesting question!
How people identify themselves?.. For this thread's sake, "europeanness" if you let me, is a mirky thing for me. Is such a European what? Christian? Humanist? White? Or is it like a larger Vaterland for some?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-07, 09:11:37
Eurasia is one geographical landmass, Africa is somewhat separate. Eurasia is conventionally divided into Europe and Asia, but the actual conventions have varied over time. You are using an 18th century convention that was politically expedient at the time, while I prefer older conventions.

Culturally Europe and North Africa are extensions of the Middle East. West Asia (roughly similar to the term Middle East, but these terms are vaguely defined as well) and Europe together are one of the three big ones, together with India and China.

That simplifies massively, e.g. South-East Asia would merely be Indo-China, a mix of the two, North Eurasia would be barbarian lands, and people everywhere would be insulted by being grouped with their neighbours and habitual enemies.

Geographically these three are divided by some brutal and near-impassable terrain, deserts and mountain ranges, like Africa is divided by Sahara. The cultural watershed East-West goes in my opinion by Afghanistan. Europe is thus safely in the West, and in the Western-most part of West Eurasia at that.

"Europe" was another Greek invention, as was "Greek". By their conventions Europe ended somewhere in the Caucasus. Armenia and probably Georgia would be in Europe, while Azerbaijan would probably be in Asia. By Greek definitions almost all of Russia would probably end up as Asia, even the "European" west-of-Ural part. Turkey on the other hand would be Europe. Then again the Greeks were unlikely to venture much into today's Russia, they seemed to be more comfortable along the coastline than trekking into the Russian steppes.

Historically, politically, demographically there are no absolute boundaries either. The Phoenician are seen as Asians (but "Europa" was a Phoenician princess, by the Greeks), but had colonies as far west as Portugal. Likewise the Greeks and the Romans went as far east as to squabble with the Persians.

The Ottoman empire, which in many ways defined modern Turkey, was heavily involved in European affairs, but it was predominantly Muslim while Europe had different sects of Christianity. However, excluding the Ottomans would mean excluding the Balkans from Europe, including the Greeks who gave the subcontinent the name.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2014-04-07, 09:27:38

"Europe" was another Greek invention, as was "Greek". By their conventions Europe ended somewhere in the Caucasus. Armenia and probably Georgia would be in Europe, while Azerbaijan would probably be in Asia.

It's true that the border between European and Asian continents is conventional and thus invention, if you want to make it sound controversial, but it's completely untrue that the border is vague or unclear. All three - Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan - are geographically in Asia. This is not debatable and there's no "probably" about it. If you claim differently, you are wrong by any European geography textbook.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-07, 09:37:50
Funny! I by some reason thought Georgia was in Europe.(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalsecurity.org%2Fmilitary%2Fworld%2Fgeorgia%2Fimages%2Fgeorgia-map.gif&hash=d0fa2fc31efd1c1d1850c9e701c9a648" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/georgia/images/georgia-map.gif)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-07, 09:41:59
Nah, I was right: (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fpsomizo.com%2Fdrupal%2F5%2Fmap-of-europe-and-asia-border-i17.gif&hash=b8141358adfd42da3068edbc5f4c2034" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://psomizo.com/drupal/5/map-of-europe-and-asia-border-i17.gif)psomizo.com/drupal/5/map-of-europe-and-asia-border
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-07, 09:46:10
However, the following seems to be another map, which doesn't include any of the three into Europe: (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fpsomizo.com%2Felgg%2F10%2Fmap-of-europe-and-asia-border-i2.jpg&hash=251077e895d19c521b582834b8a759d6" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://psomizo.com/elgg/10/map-of-europe-and-asia-border-i2.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-07, 09:51:37
According to this map (http://chromatism.net/current/images/europebirths.jpg), only Azerbaijan is excluded.
Another version (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/TransAsia_m2.png/388px-TransAsia_m2.png).
And yet another (or rather rough draw) (http://cstclair.cmswiki.wikispaces.net/file/view/border_of_europe.jpg/291057121/border_of_europe.jpg).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2014-04-07, 10:02:52

According to this map (http://chromatism.net/current/images/europebirths.jpg), only Azerbaijan is excluded.
Another version (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/TransAsia_m2.png/388px-TransAsia_m2.png).
And yet another (or rather rough draw) (http://cstclair.cmswiki.wikispaces.net/file/view/border_of_europe.jpg/291057121/border_of_europe.jpg).
In the first map, the red line excludes all three, and the brown line includes all three. It's equal to all either way.

The red line in the third map is the same as in the first map. Other lines are personal conjectures of the named guys for their apparently personal purposes.

The second map is not a geography map.

Anyway, it's clear from Jax's post that his definition is not only geographical. When you try to include cultures or religions in the definition of the continents, you get precisely what he did - doubts, guesses, probabilities, all round confusion.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-07, 10:13:29
This is not debatable and there's no "probably" about it.


If it is not debatable, then how come we are debating it? The "borders" of Europe have changed in the past, and probably will change in the future, and there are plenty of fiddly bits, Russia, Turkey, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan on the Eastern front. On the Western front Greenland and Iceland and some smaller places.

Culturally North Africa is closely related to Europe and the Middle-East, but few would claim the region to belong to Europe geographically, but what about Malta?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-04-07, 10:15:37
Eurasia is conventionally divided into Europe and Asia

Last time I checked there were a couple mountains called the Urals...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2014-04-07, 10:17:48

This is not debatable and there's no "probably" about it.


If it is not debatable, then how come we are debating it?
I was not debating. I corrected your mistake. When you disagree with your geography teacher (or any other teacher in school), is it a debate? The sides are not equal there.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-07, 10:22:30
Anyway, it's clear from Jax's post that his definition is not only geographical. When you try to include cultures or religions in the definition of the continents, you get precisely what he did - doubts, guesses, probabilities, all round confusion.


Geographically there is Eurasia. The separation into "Europe" and "Asia" is purely cultural and conventional. Geographically Africa is butting into Europe and is not about to stop doing that soon, but it still makes geographical sense to consider it a separate continent.

If we add plate tectonics into the picture it gets more interesting, but usually we don't base our conventions on that. It would be easier in that case to separate India from the rest of Eurasia than it would to separate Europe from it.

And then we get the islands as an icing on top.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-07, 10:26:43
Last time I checked there were a couple mountains called the Urals...


They came late into the definition, but was very convenient for the Russian Empire as they effectively moved Europe's boundary east. Kind of a European geographical imperialism if you wish...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2014-04-07, 10:29:24

If we add plate tectonics into the picture it gets more interesting, but usually we don't base our conventions on that. It would be easier in that case to separate India from the rest of Eurasia than it would to separate Europe from it.
But we do include geology too, and this is exactly how Indian subcontinent is discerned with inch precision, when needed. And the distinction of Europe and Asia goes the same way, on geological grounds. This is not a new thing.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-07, 10:37:40
I was not debating. I corrected your mistake. When you disagree with your geography teacher (or any other teacher in school), is it a debate? The sides are not equal there.
Hail! we had a language teacher - now we've obtained a geographer! :cheers:
Jax, speaking of geology, I have a certain idea that even what? That historical continents were either not the same as the tectonic plates (or were they dishes????) - in terms of borders (it's like now, right?). But AWAIR, they talked about a "Europe" continent for that sake. (Apart from the Siberia continent etc.) IIRC, Asia was not in existence as a whole. (In American geology, there always was a "NewYork" continent, of course:) Kidding;).)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-07, 10:43:06
Ersi, I guess the category of subcontinents closely follows geological patterns just because it's easy to employ another - let alone closely related - "ready-made" science -- much sensible that contrive something from scratch, I guess. Geography itself, as Jax pointed out, being a rather conventional field (ha! don't forget politics, right!?).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-07, 10:48:58
But we do include geology too, and this is exactly how Indian subcontinent is discerned with inch precision, when needed. And the distinction of Europe and Asia goes the same way, on geological grounds. This is not a new thing.


That's where you will find that there is a Eurasian plate. There is not now, and has never been a European plate, nor a plate comprising Eurasia minus Europe. The Earth has never been divided that way. There are also plenty of smaller wiggly bits which could be excluded, or more likely included, in any definition, as the plates mostly, but not fully, confirm to our expectations. Here is a big picture:

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fmapcollection.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F09%2Fworld-map-of-tectonic-plate-boundaries.jpg&hash=4580c4d57bc66d7e2bbfbf53c4f26df9" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://mapcollection.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/world-map-of-tectonic-plate-boundaries.jpg)


Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-07, 11:00:19
Tectonically, neither Italy nor Greece are in Europe - they're in Africa.;)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-07, 11:07:31
That's where you will find that there is a Eurasian plate. There is not now, and has never been a European plate, nor a plate comprising Eurasia minus Europe.
I'm not sure if you're right or not entirely.
IFAIK, there used to be "Europe" and "Siberia", plus some other pieces, and I can guess that the Urals could emerge the same or similar way like/as Alps and Himalayas ('course! it was Ages ago - that's why they had plenty of time to erode).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2014-04-07, 11:23:03

But we do include geology too, and this is exactly how Indian subcontinent is discerned with inch precision, when needed. And the distinction of Europe and Asia goes the same way, on geological grounds. This is not a new thing.


That's where you will find that there is a Eurasian plate. There is not now, and has never been a European plate, nor a plate comprising Eurasia minus Europe. The Earth has never been divided that way.
Geography and geology is not just tectonics. The border of the Indian subcontinent is tectonic, whereas e.g. Ural Mountains between Europe and Asia are a border in terms of topographical landshape (or whatever it's called in English). Both borders are geological definitions.

You are clearly interested in geography, but I am afraid you didn't pay proper attention to the teacher when it was the right time.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-07, 12:09:11

That's where you will find that there is a Eurasian plate. There is not now, and has never been a European plate, nor a plate comprising Eurasia minus Europe.
I'm not sure if you're right or not entirely.
IFAIK, there used to be "Europe" and "Siberia", plus some other pieces, and I can guess that the Urals could emerge the same or similar way like/as Alps and Himalayas ('course! it was Ages ago - that's why they had plenty of time to erode).

Yes, for that reason I had to state my point carefully (saying that something never happened in the past, or will not happen in the future is a high-risk strategy). There are pieces of Europe that have wandered around in the past, and that now are in Europe, but they do not encompass the whole Europe, or they encompass pieces that are not in Europe, like the Eurasian plate.

Scandinavia and the Baltic states once snuggled up to North America, some might say they still do. The Iberian plate likewise was on its own. But Eurasia was not formed by some European plate colliding with some Asian plate like a bad fusion restaurant.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-07, 12:22:35
O'k, considering the topic (its title), we only need to define Europe for our purposes, right?
I suggest the following: that which is in NATO - is Europe:idea: :D
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-07, 12:40:40
Europe by memberships is a nice topic, I'll return to that, but first a geographic subdivision I am partial to watersheds, or more properly drainage basins, which seas rainwater drains down to. First the big picture:

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fb%2Fb1%2FOcean_drainage.png&hash=c265c14dc3a40a6843917cdf177bee85" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/Ocean_drainage.png)

And more details for Europe:

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fc%2Fc4%2FEurop%25C3%25A4ische_Wasserscheiden.png&hash=2076760a62a1852291a6fda6f5ddb645" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Europ%C3%A4ische_Wasserscheiden.png)

I've been to the European watershed in the Czech Republic where in one direction the water drains to the Baltic Sea, another to the North Sea, and a third to the Black Sea.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-07, 13:06:27
Watersheds is bullshit. Europe is a historical construct: "here are us good guys - there are those damn barbarians".
Anyway, in our Forum, the eastern border of Europe is already somehow defined - as we already have "What's going on in Russia" separately!:)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-07, 13:17:57
Oh, the forum threads are overlapping, something could be going on in Russia and the UK simultaneously.

Speaking of watersheds and drainage basins, here is a map of religious majorities. It may not be relevant any more as by now we are all godless heathens.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F2%2F23%2FEurope_religion_map_en.png&hash=8844511809976e1d35b0692874408bc0" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Europe_religion_map_en.png)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-07, 13:20:56
...something could be going on in Russia and the UK simultaneously.
Like what?
Gas treaties talks on phone?:lol:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-07, 13:22:21

O'k, considering the topic (its title), we only need to define Europe for our purposes, right?
I suggest the following: that which is in NATO - is Europe:idea: :D


Like this (two orange European countries are missing on the map: Canada and the USA)?

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-MbcHDpuPt94%2FTr09E5OZpyI%2FAAAAAAAAAJI%2FZ8z-3kl6KjQ%2Fs1600%2FEU%2Band%2BNATO.png&hash=6fed2e37ff4881c5d7c0bd1df0d225a9" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MbcHDpuPt94/Tr09E5OZpyI/AAAAAAAAAJI/Z8z-3kl6KjQ/s1600/EU+and+NATO.png)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-07, 13:28:22
The Council of Europe
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fa%2Fa5%2FMap_of_the_47_Member_States_of_the_Council_of_Europe.jpg&hash=71b57e1dac87953ff60864a03b93d90f" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Map_of_the_47_Member_States_of_the_Council_of_Europe.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-07, 13:29:23


O'k, considering the topic (its title), we only need to define Europe for our purposes, right?
I suggest the following: that which is in NATO - is Europe:idea: :D


Like this (two orange European countries are missing on the map: Canada and the USA)?

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-MbcHDpuPt94%2FTr09E5OZpyI%2FAAAAAAAAAJI%2FZ8z-3kl6KjQ%2Fs1600%2FEU%2Band%2BNATO.png&hash=6fed2e37ff4881c5d7c0bd1df0d225a9" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MbcHDpuPt94/Tr09E5OZpyI/AAAAAAAAAJI/Z8z-3kl6KjQ/s1600/EU+and+NATO.png)
What's the lowest colour? Too tiny letters!..  "Members of Josh"????;)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-07, 13:35:43
Purple are those countries that have taken the two for one offer.

European countries that are members of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe:

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F6%2F62%2FOSCE_members_and_partners.svg&hash=db74c55e42fab46697a686a87054f24a" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/OSCE_members_and_partners.svg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-07, 13:46:18
Red are the countries that have won the Eurovision Song Contest this century.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.world66.com%2Fmyworld66%2FvisitedEurope%2Fcountrymap%3Fvisited%3DAZDKESFIGEGRLENORUSMSETUUK&hash=fbf89913f2e884c0a966cfd79c57f802" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.world66.com/myworld66/visitedEurope/countrymap?visited=AZDKESFIGEGRLENORUSMSETUUK)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-07, 13:46:47
Green for Security, and orange - for "Co-operation"????
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-07, 13:49:24
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.world66.com%2Fmyworld66%2FvisitedEurope%2Fcountrymap%3Fvisited%3DAZDKESFIGEGRLENORUSMSETUUK&hash=fbf89913f2e884c0a966cfd79c57f802" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.world66.com/myworld66/visitedEurope/countrymap?visited=AZDKESFIGEGRLENORUSMSETUUK)
Looks like a horsebear hugging a doggoat.:D
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-07, 13:53:17
Union of European Football Associations

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fd%2Fdd%2FUEFA_members_Champs_League_group_stage.png&hash=766ad23bb30f3e9ecc6d42a4bdaf9bf2" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/UEFA_members_Champs_League_group_stage.png)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-07, 14:01:14
Union for the Mediterranean (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F3%2F3f%2FEU28-2013-Union_for_the_Mediterranean.svg&hash=4718131f2f7e2b6ae9b50aeabf0a0acf" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/EU28-2013-Union_for_the_Mediterranean.svg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-04-07, 14:01:53

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.world66.com%2Fmyworld66%2FvisitedEurope%2Fcountrymap%3Fvisited%3DAZDKESFIGEGRLENORUSMSETUUK&hash=fbf89913f2e884c0a966cfd79c57f802" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.world66.com/myworld66/visitedEurope/countrymap?visited=AZDKESFIGEGRLENORUSMSETUUK)
Looks like a horsebear hugging a doggoat.:D

More like a lobster engulfing a seahorse than a horsebear.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-07, 14:06:47
Organization of the Black Sea Economic Cooperation
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F0%2F0c%2FBSEC_Map.png&hash=cbf73e63397ec29a72817644a5a46e36" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/BSEC_Map.png)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-07, 14:13:41
Europe of Circles and Circle-like Things

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F1%2F1a%2FSupranational_European_Bodies-en.svg%2F800px-Supranational_European_Bodies-en.svg.png&hash=c6b77c4b7590d02a846106d1c64ac55d" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Supranational_European_Bodies-en.svg/800px-Supranational_European_Bodies-en.svg.png)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-07, 14:23:53
NUTS2 population density
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F0%2F0f%2FEU_NUTS_2_population_density_2007.svg%2F800px-EU_NUTS_2_population_density_2007.svg.png&hash=83d0a15126f3f2a0b693746ded9af300" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/EU_NUTS_2_population_density_2007.svg/800px-EU_NUTS_2_population_density_2007.svg.png)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-07, 14:26:53
[PSST]Jax has gone nuts![/PSST]
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-07, 14:35:45
You could go NUTS2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomenclature_of_Territorial_Units_for_Statistics) if Eurostat let you.

But there are earlier European empires as well, this map for 800 AD.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F7%2F7d%2FMediterr%25C3%25A1neo_a%25C3%25B1o_800_dC_1.gif&hash=96271246cddc6adb45b9634ab64d7f68" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Mediterr%C3%A1neo_a%C3%B1o_800_dC_1.gif)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-07, 15:14:43
Jumping ahead in time a bit, for a long time Europe had cornered the market in urbanisation, and this corner of Eurasia still has a large urban presence, the size of the circles represent (sub)urban population.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic6.businessinsider.com%2Fimage%2F4fbc3fa8ecad048055000010%2Fworld-cities-population-map.jpg&hash=e1b38034692906a408483f62276f427c" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://static6.businessinsider.com/image/4fbc3fa8ecad048055000010/world-cities-population-map.jpg)

Over time (http://www.unicef.org/sowc2012/urbanmap/#) however, the world will catch up.

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-07, 15:20:40
Don't you think it's enough?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-04-08, 12:18:40
No.
We want maps!
We want maps!
We want maps!
We want maps!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-08, 12:44:49

No.
We want maps!
We want maps!
We want maps!
We want maps!

I fully agree. The problem with Europe is not enough maps.

My favorite of the bunch so far had to do with drainage. The seas may not be as important to us as they once were, but they have still shaped us and our culture.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fb%2Fb1%2FOcean_drainage.png&hash=c265c14dc3a40a6843917cdf177bee85" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/Ocean_drainage.png)
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fc%2Fc4%2FEurop%25C3%25A4ische_Wasserscheiden.png&hash=2076760a62a1852291a6fda6f5ddb645" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Europ%C3%A4ische_Wasserscheiden.png)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-08, 12:51:46
Jax, drain yourself already!:/
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-08, 18:12:18
This map/poster shows Europe as the most connected region on the planet (excepting some laggards like Norway, Scotland and the like).

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fbioval.jrc.ec.europa.eu%2Fproducts%2Fgam%2Fdownload%2Faccessibility.png&hash=e0236c5a3f67b0c88699eed856c5e27e" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://bioval.jrc.ec.europa.eu/products/gam/download/accessibility.png)

As interesting are the datasets used (http://bioval.jrc.ec.europa.eu/products/gam/sources.htm) to generate this map.

This is the road network, basically showing that we've got road traffic covered.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fbioval.jrc.ec.europa.eu%2Fproducts%2Fgam%2Fimages%2Flarge%2Froads.png&hash=8117b4930f7bf39444dacb43d6e46776" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://bioval.jrc.ec.europa.eu/products/gam/images/large/roads.png)

A little more interesting is the rail network, rjhowie pay attention.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fbioval.jrc.ec.europa.eu%2Fproducts%2Fgam%2Fimages%2Flarge%2Frailways.png&hash=a9fea0fc5e882cbedb3cf5ccfeaa159d" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://bioval.jrc.ec.europa.eu/products/gam/images/large/railways.png)

Navigable rivers, the old-style superhighways.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fbioval.jrc.ec.europa.eu%2Fproducts%2Fgam%2Fimages%2Flarge%2Fmajor_rivers.png&hash=996e1a3ed7518addc0b2b5d28afb9419" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://bioval.jrc.ec.europa.eu/products/gam/images/large/major_rivers.png)

Shipping
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fbioval.jrc.ec.europa.eu%2Fproducts%2Fgam%2Fimages%2Flarge%2Fshipping_laness.png&hash=3b3ccd0eeec012b1151b53ec8aeb92f7" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://bioval.jrc.ec.europa.eu/products/gam/images/large/shipping_laness.png)

Land cover
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fbioval.jrc.ec.europa.eu%2Fproducts%2Fgam%2Fimages%2Flarge%2Flandcover.png&hash=e1d21cd110135d9c5a9c2edbd0f467e8" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://bioval.jrc.ec.europa.eu/products/gam/images/large/landcover.png)

Slopes
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fbioval.jrc.ec.europa.eu%2Fproducts%2Fgam%2Fimages%2Flarge%2Fslope.png&hash=063162c514f03948ddeb42c17bca8ac4" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://bioval.jrc.ec.europa.eu/products/gam/images/large/slope.png)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-08, 19:31:44
This map/poster shows Europe as the most connected region on the planet (excepting some laggards like Norway, Scotland and the like).

For what seems like mostly obvious reasons, that's not terribly dissimilar to population density.  I guess India would show up brighter still if it were more like Europe.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Macallan on 2014-04-08, 19:42:04

We want maps!

:yes:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-09, 06:33:15
For what seems like mostly obvious reasons, that's not terribly dissimilar to population density.  I guess India would show up brighter still if it were more like Europe.
Population density and wealth, and technology. I'd leave it to others which would be the causes and which the effects. A time series would have been cool (say from 1945 until tomorrow).

The city cutoff of 50,000 people matters in the north. North of the Arctic Circle cities are smaller than that (http://www.theworldgeography.com/2011/12/10-largest-cities-within-arctic-circle.html), with a few exceptions (Murmansk-Severomorsk-Apatity, Tromsø, and Vorilsk in Europe). Even further south there are not many, Arkhangelsk, Oulo, Rovaniemi, Luleå, Trondheim lighting up the map. Reykjavik is the only Icelandic city this size, so the map there shows distance to Reykjavik.  Greenland has none, so it is all dark.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-09, 07:07:41
These maps also shows the geographical rationale for why my "big three", Europe/West-Asia, South Asia, and East Asia have had a semi-independent history, there are some seriously tricky bits in the middle. They are no less tricky to South-East Asia, but there the sea routes were well established.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fbioval.jrc.ec.europa.eu%2Fproducts%2Fgam%2Fimages%2Flarge%2Frailways.png&hash=a9fea0fc5e882cbedb3cf5ccfeaa159d" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://bioval.jrc.ec.europa.eu/products/gam/images/large/railways.png)
Also, look at the railway map again (by the way, these maps are the full-size pictures, open them up in a separate tab to see them in full glory). Russian imperialism led to a line being drawn from Europe to China (spot Moscow on the map), and Chinese commercialism may return the favour. Then look at South Asia, this subcontinent lives in a world of its own. (For why, look at the "slopes" map).

Finally look at the "shipping" map, and you can see the Eurasian half-circuit, it is basically a naval motorway most of the way.

The other half-circuit is limited by polar ice. 
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2014-04-09, 07:23:11

----Vorilsk in Europe----
Is this some common misspelling of Norilsk? Norilsk is not in Europe. And I'm not debating.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-09, 07:44:42
Is this some common misspelling of Norilsk? Norilsk is not in Europe. And I'm not debating.

The linked article speaks of Norilsk in Siberia. A mistake snuck in somewhere. ;)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-09, 07:45:53
Is this some common misspelling of Norilsk? Norilsk is not in Europe. And I'm not debating.
Just a typo for Vorkuta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkuta). As for Norilsk, Siberia is kind of honorary Europe, just like Eurobodalla.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-09, 08:06:51
Incidentally, that led me to this list of the worst polluted places on earth.

http://www.blacksmithinstitute.org/new-report-cites-the-world-s-worst-polluted-places.html

http://www.worstpolluted.org/

Quote
Agbogbloshie Dumpsite, Ghana
Chernobyl, Ukraine
Citarum River, Indonesia
Dzerzhinsk, Russia
Hazaribagh, Bangladesh
Kabwe, Zambia
Kalimantan, Indonesia
Matanza-Riachuelo, Argentina
Niger River Delta, Nigeria
Norilsk, Russia
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2014-04-09, 08:57:14
I would take such lists with a pinch of salt. Wonder how much political substrate such lists have.
Fukushima which is said to be even worse than the Chernobyl catastrophe didn't make it into the list.

BTW,
Top CO2 polluters and highest per capita (http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/10296/economics/top-co2-polluters-highest-per-capita/)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-09, 09:02:16
Nice, let's see what Wiki-Google can show.

Agbogbloshie, Ghana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agbogbloshie) (digital dumping district)
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.c.photoshelter.com%2Fimg-get%2FI0000lZzMOIXGfSU%2Fs%2F860%2F860%2FAgbogbloshie20.jpg&hash=40851c7fa373d81b2e3cadcddec69aaf" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000lZzMOIXGfSU/s/860/860/Agbogbloshie20.jpg)

Chernobyl, Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl) (nature reserve)
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FRY1aWPx.jpg&hash=5ae57778d0ab27d8422f1fd4fdad2ab2" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/RY1aWPx.jpg)

Citarum River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citarum_River) (effluent disposal estuary)
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aventure-chasse-peche-video.com%2Fnouvelles%2F2010%2Fmai%2Fcitrium%2FLe%2520fleuve%2520Citarum3.JPG&hash=af2150ea33a5d8dda6da33d94cc6d0f3" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.aventure-chasse-peche-video.com/nouvelles/2010/mai/citrium/Le%20fleuve%20Citarum3.JPG)

Dzerzhinsk, Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzerzhinsk,_Russia#Pollution) (Disputed chemical disposal city)
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.annefontainefoundation.org%2Fsites%2Fannefontaine-pny.cmsloungesvn.com%2Ffiles%2FScreen%2520Shot%25202013-11-12%2520at%25201.07.59%2520PM.png&hash=cce9bc0011e53e78ba9d334b6a9d7c1d" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.annefontainefoundation.org/sites/annefontaine-pny.cmsloungesvn.com/files/Screen%20Shot%202013-11-12%20at%201.07.59%20PM.png)

Hazaribagh Thana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazaribagh_Thana), Bangladesh (a tanning district)
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.capital.cl%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F11%2Fhazaribagh-bangladesh.jpg&hash=19ccbdbefa2c9998aa143e46f0b275bf" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.capital.cl/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/hazaribagh-bangladesh.jpg)


(Disclaimer: Pictures were made and picked for effect rather than realism)
((Disclaimer elucidation: Not only are pictures selected for drama and human angle and misleading, many of these pictures are attributed to wrong places, even by presumed reputable media outlets.))
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-09, 09:09:29

I would take such lists with a pinch of salt. Wonder how much political substrate such lists have.

That I fully agree with.
Fukushima which is said to be even worse than the Chernobyl catastrophe didn't make it into the list.

Technically that statement is correct, Fukushima is said to be even worse than Chernobyl. That statement however is an outright lie.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-09, 10:00:48
I would take such lists with a pinch of salt.

Naturally. But it's not like they're secretive about their methodology.

Fukushima which is said to be even worse than the Chernobyl catastrophe didn't make it into the list.

Actually it did make it into the document.
Quote from: Introduction, p. 5
Disaster sites are no longer specifically identified in Green Cross and Blacksmith operations but, sadly, accidents continue to occur, with Fukushima a lesson against complacency in regard to our ability to design and manage successfully large and hazardous operations. Consequently, this years report also addresses the industries identified over recent years as the top polluters globally and provides illustrations of the level of disease burden attributable to toxic pollution at some typical sites.

On p. 15 there's a special section on Fukishima.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-04-09, 10:35:14
And one on sashimi, my favorite Japanese food.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-09, 11:21:55
What's Going on in Europe (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=163.msg8108#msg8108)

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-04-09, 11:45:06
Don't take me around in circles.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-09, 11:47:08
Sashimi is definitely going on in Europe, though at least in Stockholm dumplings have taken over some of that culinary niche.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-09, 11:53:05
Speaking of sashimi, here's a map:
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn3.chartsbin.com%2Fchartimages%2Fl_1490_d05241effbf06c33dc339663b8207ee4&hash=cc49741f2e3de2b7397fd11bb0fbcf63" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn3.chartsbin.com/chartimages/l_1490_d05241effbf06c33dc339663b8207ee4)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-09, 12:19:22

What's Going on in Europe (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=163.msg8108#msg8108)

Quote from: the Homeric hymn to Apollo (522 B.C.E. or earlier)
Telphusa, here I am minded to make a glorious temple, an oracle for men, and hither they will always bring perfect hecatombs, both those who live in rich Peloponnesus and those of Europe and all the wave-washed isles, coming to seek oracles.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-09, 12:40:29
Speaking of sashimi, here's a map [of milk]:

Fish should swim (in milk)?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-09, 12:48:07
Sometimes what is written were intended to be taken quite literally.

We were speaking of sashimi, and there there was a map of milk consumption. As Europeans drink a lot of milk, relatively and absolutely, this is an ongoing process, and thus on topic.

Politicians lie in cast-iron sinks.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-04-09, 14:02:35
Alcohol consumption?
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fa%2Fa9%2FAlcohol_consumption_per_capita_world_map.PNG&hash=3ca6bf80246413d36d085eb311e4bf5b" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Alcohol_consumption_per_capita_world_map.PNG)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-09, 14:18:42
No, coffee consumption.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-JSjQTryjVbE%2FUtldhu0lCUI%2FAAAAAAAADzE%2FsgsOp9oxjaU%2Fs1600%2F40%2BMaps%2BThat%2BWill%2BHelp%2BYou%2BMake%2BSense%2Bof%2Bthe%2BWorld%2B-%2BWorldwide%2BAnnual%2BCoffee%2BConsumption%2BPer%2BCapita.jpg&hash=09988c2cc546c5534008fcb5714d7edd" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JSjQTryjVbE/Utldhu0lCUI/AAAAAAAADzE/sgsOp9oxjaU/s1600/40+Maps+That+Will+Help+You+Make+Sense+of+the+World+-+Worldwide+Annual+Coffee+Consumption+Per+Capita.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-04-09, 18:01:28
No, fish consumption.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.grida.no%2Fgraphicslib%2Fthumbs%2F1805c933-493c-4b85-be16-ad06eb342332%2Fmedium%2Ffish-protein-world-consumption_c33d.jpg&hash=5dbf4fc2d9aef38bcac2e039713cbf94" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.grida.no/graphicslib/thumbs/1805c933-493c-4b85-be16-ad06eb342332/medium/fish-protein-world-consumption_c33d.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-09, 18:17:43
The United States would be more interesting if it were split up a bit more, but I'm surprised how comparatively low it is around here.

For me, fish probably makes up more than 30% of animal protein. It's hard to say though. I irregularly eat fish and eggs, while I eat cheese daily.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-04-09, 20:09:26
My mother used to say that fish gave brains.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-04-09, 21:32:06
My mother used to say that fish gave brains.

You should had listen to her....
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-12, 15:03:51
€1=$1.3883.:)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-12, 15:06:17

€1=$1.3917 today.:) Information from my Firefox toolbar;)


Quote from: my Yandex-bar
€1=$1.3765
:)


€1=$1.3883.:)


Buy! Sell!  :no: :no: :no:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-12, 15:14:09
Up to you! :lol:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-04-12, 22:05:21
Oh, I well enough knew that you or the Michigan man would come up with such a reposte, Belfrager. I did she was a solid Protestant so naturally didn't need a lot of fish to have brain power. Fishing is still a big thing in Portugal........!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-04-13, 16:54:38
Whatever are you talking about?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-13, 19:14:52
What about a map?

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fblogs%2Fworldviews%2Ffiles%2F2014%2F01%2Fmapfortresseuropeeng1-1.png&hash=2b35e4ca810ca43112f1c2710d5bbc86" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/files/2014/01/mapfortresseuropeeng1-1.png) (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/files/2014/01/mapfortresseuropeeng1-1.png)

Migrants who have died trying to enter Europe.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-13, 19:37:09
Would someone explain to The Washington Post that I do not in fact live in a city named Anvers, that the accepted English name is Antwerp, and that the majority of Belgians speak Dutch? Thank you.

(Also, the English name for Frankfurt is Frankfurt. The majority of Germans speak German. Lisboa is Lisbon, and so on and so forth.)

:pirate:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-13, 19:42:57
:wine:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-13, 19:44:28
Du pain, du vin, du Boursin.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.skynetblogs.be%2Fmedia%2F95238%2Fdyn003_original_342_247_pjpeg_2512004_22ba131484d8eaf21bb0d0f5e38ab605.jpg&hash=0f2d76a9757dfa64caff3cdd5fcafe19" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://static.skynetblogs.be/media/95238/dyn003_original_342_247_pjpeg_2512004_22ba131484d8eaf21bb0d0f5e38ab605.jpg)

(I see a wine smiley and I think of Boursin? Talk about effective advertising.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-13, 19:46:03
I don't do pain, sorry.:sorry:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Macallan on 2014-04-14, 00:12:52

Would someone explain to The Washington Post that I do not in fact live in a city named Anvers, that the accepted English name is Antwerp, and that the majority of Belgians speak Dutch? Thank you.

They're not even consistent within one country - Roma vs. Milan for example.
And then Douvres in southeastern Britain :faint:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-04-14, 12:16:54
Let's hope that this never goes on in Europe.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.apn.ru%2Fuserdata%2Fimages%2Fputin.1102340091.jpg&hash=e7a4a09423e23145f0a5e3c32d40b7ed" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.apn.ru/userdata/images/putin.1102340091.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-04-15, 01:19:39
You still have a problem.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-04-15, 07:36:43
 :'( I have more problems than you could possibly imagine. :'(

And that pretty lass isn't an American, she's a Rooskie.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-15, 07:39:25
The title of this thread is misspelled. (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fscherpzeilen.nl%2Fproductie%2Flogomerk%2Furope.jpg&hash=5d661baff8051cab3829668784f05632" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://scherpzeilen.nl/productie/logomerk/urope.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-04-15, 12:38:19
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Feu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu%2Ffiles%2F2013%2F04%2Fcopy-EU-ROPE-FINAL.gif&hash=1470e07d3d4d49a8d1f846295ed977fb" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://eu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu/files/2013/04/copy-EU-ROPE-FINAL.gif)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-15, 13:52:31
Has anybody heard of such services like MyRope, YouRope - aside from those YouTube, YouPipe and YouSmoke?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2014-04-15, 22:27:56

You still have a problem.

Not that you or Jim listen to this type of music, but I have to post this, as you reminded me of this song with your quoted post.

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-04-16, 02:13:02
Would confirm your view - not my music at all. I file it under "ugh."  :whistle:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-25, 03:18:26
Map of Czechoslovakia between the wars. Uzhhorod and Lviv (Lwów) are now in Ukraine, Wrocław (Breslau) now in Poland.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F6%2F6a%2FCzechoslovakia_1930_linguistic_map_-_created_2008-10-30.svg%2F800px-Czechoslovakia_1930_linguistic_map_-_created_2008-10-30.svg.png&hash=af1379be1f6dc62928b79898cce20799" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/Czechoslovakia_1930_linguistic_map_-_created_2008-10-30.svg/800px-Czechoslovakia_1930_linguistic_map_-_created_2008-10-30.svg.png) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/Czechoslovakia_1930_linguistic_map_-_created_2008-10-30.svg/800px-Czechoslovakia_1930_linguistic_map_-_created_2008-10-30.svg.png)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-04-28, 20:39:09
Migrants who have died trying to enter Europe.

It would be a bit difficult to immigrants to die trying to entering into Northern Europe, unless they could have tele-transportation.
A good example how maps can serve Northern propaganda and their defense of "human rights".
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-29, 02:43:28
That's what you see in the picture?

Blue is death by drowning.

What I see is that the picture is very old. All the green countries are now within the Schengen red line, except UK and Ireland of course. All the yellow countries are now green, except Turkey of course. The multi-coloured circles should be updated with the last 8+ years of migration.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-29, 06:53:48
It would be a bit difficult to immigrants to die trying to entering into Northern Europe, unless they could have tele-transportation.
A good example how maps can serve Northern propaganda and their defense of "human rights".

It can also serve Portuguese propaganda. Portugal hardly seems to have any issues at all.

Anyway, unless Spain and Italy are torpedoing boats in the Mediterranean, which I imagine would've been shown as "violence of policemans [sic]," I don't subscribe to your interpretation of the map at all.

What's surprising to me is how many people apparently died trying to cross the Oder. But as jax said, Poland wasn't part of Schengen at the time.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-04-29, 09:23:35
It can also serve Portuguese propaganda. Portugal hardly seems to have any issues at all.

There are no problems with immigrants dying here. But I'm going to speak about that bellow.
Anyway, unless Spain and Italy are torpedoing boats in the Mediterranean, which I imagine would've been shown as "violence of policemans [sic]," I don't subscribe to your interpretation of the map at all.

Because you're making an immediate reading of my words. The problem shown in the map, which is an humanitarian tragedy, it's a problem that concerns the entire EU as an entity and not, as a superficial reading of the map indicates, a problem affecting southern countries.

The illegal immigrants tries to reach the "Europe of their dreams" not those countries in particular, they just finish dying there because it is the first place to die...
The patrol and control of the Mediterranean has to be supported by ALL the European countries and not let as a mere internal Spanish or Italian problem.
Not fulfilling their obligations regarding this issue has been the Northern countries position and thousands of miserables keeps on being victims of an industry of death each year thanks to that.

This is one of the darkest aspects affecting Europe, and simply a badly hidden mater of disrespect for the human life. Let them die... it's not our problem, they say in Brussels. I wonder what would happen if those thousands of corpses were putted in their streets.


Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-29, 09:51:08
I agree that we should accommodate more refugees. The Netherlands has been acting especially shameful in that regard. But I also seem to recall that Italy was recently given €30 million by the EU in support. None of which has particularly much to do with drowning, though. I don't think the north African countries would be terribly pleased if the EU patrolled their territorial waters for vessels that aren't seaworthy. I'm not sure what the solution is there, but more patrols doesn't sound quite right.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-04-29, 10:09:15
The map doesn't give the full picture as it only shows death on European soil (or territorial waters), and not those who died on the way there, like in North Africa and particularly Sahara. The war in Syria has lead to a surge in refugees, and an increase of victims of drowning.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-29, 10:18:39
I should also point out that unlike the Netherlands, which should change its tune, Belgium aids as many refugees per capita as Italy. Germany isn't that far off either. The difference is that rather few arrive by sea. Instead they are slightly richer -- that is, at least sufficiently rich to afford a one-way flight. Apparently, EU-wide about 6% arrive by sea, 20% by land, and the rest by air.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-04-29, 10:50:13
I don't think the north African countries would be terribly pleased if the EU patrolled their territorial waters for vessels that aren't seaworthy. I'm not sure what the solution is there, but more patrols doesn't sound quite right.

Look to Morocco, from where all the boat people that tries to arrive to Spain near the Gibraltar straight comes from.
The King of Morocco is a nice educated man that you can speak with. He also personally owns more than ninety per cent of Morocco biggest companies.

Have a talk with him, propose some business in the EU for his companies, a bit of military cooperation, offer a few Mirages (he still has a small problem down there with the Polisario Front, I suppose), even a German submarine for his royal marine. Establish with him an immigration policy to the EU he can present to his people.
He knows how to eliminate the problem, that you can be sure.

With minor adaptations the same goes for the other countries.
While the EU foreigner relationship keeps being decided by Berlin this problem can't have solution. There are things Germans have difficulty to understand.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-29, 10:54:11
Have a talk with him, propose some business in the EU for his companies, a bit of military cooperation, offer a few Mirages (he still has a small problem down there with the Polisario Front, I suppose), even a German submarine for his royal marine. Establish with him an immigration policy to the EU he can present to his people.
He knows how to eliminate the problem, that you can be sure.

:yes: That sounds a lot more like what I was thinking, but I didn't want to overshoot on a topic on which I'm fairly ignorant.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-05-01, 14:48:18

Have a talk with him, propose some business in the EU for his companies, a bit of military cooperation, offer a few Mirages (he still has a small problem down there with the Polisario Front, I suppose), even a German submarine for his royal marine. Establish with him an immigration policy to the EU he can present to his people.

You forgot to mention sainthood!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: tt92 on 2014-05-01, 22:44:10


:yes: That sounds a lot more like what I was thinking, but I didn't want to overshoot on a topic on which I'm fairly ignorant.

Why not?
It doesn't stop the rest of us.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-05-04, 02:40:30
Europe and in particular the EU is a mess. The organisation is as corrupt as Hell. For years now auditors have not been able to clear the books. If this was a company or business you would be in trouble but they get away with it. France tends to like the bits that suit and those they don't are ignored with little penalty. The Euro as a currency is in one big mess too. I cannot blame that Dutch politician for wanting out  and there are those in France who think the same. It has a jolly image as far as the successful Germans are concerned but not for anyone else. I just want my country out the damn thing.

Meanwhile the argument continues, countries are straining and they cannot solve the currency matter at all and sems to be going on for ever. At least we kept the pound and thankful for that. Europe is okay for a holiday (I will be back in the Netherlands this year) but as a super politcal state - nah, forget it.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2014-05-04, 05:59:15
Plain & simple it's Socialism that's all to blame.......

Politicians all offer free this & thats in hopes it will ensure them political longevity.

If it does (it always has), these same politicians offer more & more, creating a never slowing public dependency.

When they start to run out of money to pay for it,  in the end they end up with less people to pay into the economy than they have to pay out to, they dupe their more profitable neighbors into 'lending' them money to grease their local 'dependents' more & more.

Well, that's Europe in a nutshell --- the USA too --- Socialized Governments are getting deeper, & deeper, & deeper into debt ..... They are running out of 'other peoples money' & eventually there won't be anyone left to borrow from, leaving their monitory systems in a shambles, & once stable currencies virtually worthless. 

Governments will begin to implode, & the dependent masses will eventually burn what's left all to hell for sure!

Some people question why I am,  & so many of my American brothers are,  so into guns .... well think about it ... it's about that time that guns will offer the only bargaining power & pathway to survival.

Who's got 'em might just survive, & those without 'em it's curtains .... there's only the curb of destitution.

Socialism, meant to save all mankind in the eyes of some, will go down in history as 'almost' making civilization extinct.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-05-04, 19:01:04
Well I suppose it is Socialism that is to blame in America? Over 40 million poor an army that you cannot afford, military everywhere, ordinary wages hardly moving unlike the top of the tree where income rockets by hundreds of percent. Dare say it is a special American type of Socialism!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2014-05-04, 20:38:12

Well I suppose it is Socialism that is to blame in America? Over 40 million poor an army that you cannot afford, military everywhere, ordinary wages hardly moving unlike the top of the tree where income rockets by hundreds of percent. Dare say it is a special American type of Socialism!

(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)

We're not as efficient at self-destruction as Europe is, so we're miles behind you guys in our brand of socialism, thank God!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-05-08, 11:15:51
Road deaths per million inhabitants 2002 and 2012
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FtQglLlu.jpg&hash=0968a12db219a4b5d965db2d16bf940d" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/tQglLlu.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/tQglLlu.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-05-08, 11:23:51
Colours of motorway signs

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2F51179ca4783cd8ca2e29ce7cc21a30d4%2Ftumblr_n1mlbeAuyG1rasnq9o1_1280.png&hash=1a488bd2262f0921688d8ef9333d5a42" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://24.media.tumblr.com/51179ca4783cd8ca2e29ce7cc21a30d4/tumblr_n1mlbeAuyG1rasnq9o1_1280.png)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-05-08, 11:50:58
Belief "there is a God"
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F4%2F47%2FEurope_belief_in_god.svg%2F839px-Europe_belief_in_god.svg.png&hash=914d2fced135f8039c86ad3dfa833b2a" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Europe_belief_in_god.svg/839px-Europe_belief_in_god.svg.png)


Belief "there is some sort of spirit or life force"
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F9%2F9f%2FEurope_belief_in_Spirit_Life_Force.png%2F839px-Europe_belief_in_Spirit_Life_Force.png&hash=d7eaf084e3e0280672e103705d8d8bd4" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Europe_belief_in_Spirit_Life_Force.png/839px-Europe_belief_in_Spirit_Life_Force.png)


No belief in "any sort of spirit, God or life force"
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fc%2Fc1%2FEurope_No_Belief_enhanced.png%2F839px-Europe_No_Belief_enhanced.png&hash=e364fe0118542db0bb890112b06cee01" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/Europe_No_Belief_enhanced.png/839px-Europe_No_Belief_enhanced.png)

Source: Religion in Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Europe) (Eurobarometer 2010)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member [2] on 2014-05-08, 11:57:29
Belief "there is a God"
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F4%2F47%2FEurope_belief_in_god.svg%2F839px-Europe_belief_in_god.svg.png&hash=914d2fced135f8039c86ad3dfa833b2a" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Europe_belief_in_god.svg/839px-Europe_belief_in_god.svg.png)
I believe I've spotted a Belfrager, didn't I?:)

Belief "there is some sort of spirit or life force"
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F9%2F9f%2FEurope_belief_in_Spirit_Life_Force.png%2F839px-Europe_belief_in_Spirit_Life_Force.png&hash=d7eaf084e3e0280672e103705d8d8bd4" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Europe_belief_in_Spirit_Life_Force.png/839px-Europe_belief_in_Spirit_Life_Force.png)
Where are Romanians?
:rolleyes:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-05-08, 12:15:42
They go with God. According to this poll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eurobarometer_poll.png) 95% of the Turks and Maltese believe in a God, followed by 90% for the Cypriots and Romanians. On the other side 16% of Estonians, 19% of Czechs, and 23% of Swedes believe in a God.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member [2] on 2014-05-08, 12:18:46
How will "swede" be in Swedish?:)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-05-08, 12:35:20
Svensk, from svea(r), a tribe, then a kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedes_(Germanic_tribe)) that eventually took over what is now Sweden (and a lot more during its imperial age). It went from this yellow territory:
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F9%2F93%2FScandinavia-12th_century.png%2F650px-Scandinavia-12th_century.png&hash=c0a5fc7462553fbe31d27525f267fb17" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Scandinavia-12th_century.png/650px-Scandinavia-12th_century.png)

into this:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Swedish_Empire_(1560-1815)_en2.png)

and back again into something more lagom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagom) today.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member [2] on 2014-05-08, 12:54:26
I was asking about the English word "swede". Is Sweden the motherland of swede?:)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-05-08, 13:04:31
Kålrot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutabaga) ("cabbage root"). It is eaten more in Scandinavia than most other places, though I suspect they eat less than they used to. Too bad, that's a nice vegetable.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-05-08, 13:07:15
Where Europeans go on vacation, once they leave their country (http://qz.com/177366/where-europeans-go-on-vacation-not-so-far-from-home/)

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fqzprod.files.wordpress.com%2F2014%2F02%2Feuro_tourism_003.png&hash=5ff2feb33b0450013ac99fd0fd14058d" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://qzprod.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/euro_tourism_003.png)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member [2] on 2014-05-08, 13:13:29
Slovenians and Croatians are funny. Maybe Croatians go to Slovenia just because of loads of Bulgarians coming in at the time of vacation.:idea:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-05-08, 13:23:20
It could have been a better map. It only shows which country is the #1 (top) destination, which typically is a neighbour.

The total in- and outflow of tourists to all countries by quantity and percentage might have been better. On the other hand a #1 map has the advantage of simplicity and clarity.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Banned Member [2] on 2014-05-08, 13:33:10
You seem somehow obsessed with maps, Jax, aren't you?
You'd better tell us if spring is going on in Europe. Are there maps showing not weather but, say, phenological changing flow? Birds copulating or such sort?:)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-05-08, 13:46:41
I got something even better. The most photographed places are... (http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/13/travel/photo-map-popular-cities/)

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.boredpanda.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F02%2Ffun-maps-2-7.jpg&hash=af1f36467139a26952096df751b9a898" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/fun-maps-2-7.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-05-08, 13:51:55
And since it is spring, people in the EU who still live with their parents (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-25827061).

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.boredpanda.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F02%2Ffun-maps-2-9.jpg&hash=93953765b9c305b203907a969a5353ec" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/fun-maps-2-9.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-05-08, 16:50:35

Road deaths per million inhabitants 2002 and 2012
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FtQglLlu.jpg&hash=0968a12db219a4b5d965db2d16bf940d" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/tQglLlu.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/tQglLlu.jpg)

Why Sweden has so few road deaths (http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2014/02/economist-explains-16)
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.static-economist.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fimagecache%2Ffull-width%2Fimages%2F2014%2F02%2Fblogs%2Feconomist-explains%2F20140222_eup505.jpg&hash=13e206e2e12eab567219f5ebec80631d" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/full-width/images/2014/02/blogs/economist-explains/20140222_eup505.jpg)
Quote from: The Economist
LAST year 264 people died in road crashes in Sweden, a record low. Although the number of cars in circulation and the number of miles driven have both doubled since 1970, the number of road deaths has fallen by four-fifths during the same period. With only three of every 100,000 Swedes dying on the roads each year, compared with 5.5 per 100,000 across the European Union, 11.4 in America and 40 in the Dominican Republic, which has the world's deadliest traffic, Sweden's roads have become the world's safest. Other places such as New York City are now trying to copy its success. How has Sweden done it?

Since reaching a peak in road deaths in the 1970s, rich countries have become much better at reducing the number of traffic accidents. (Poor countries, by contrast, have seen an increasing death toll, as car sales have accelerated.) In 1997 the Swedish parliament wrote into law a "Vision Zero" plan, promising to eliminate road fatalities and injuries altogether. "We simply do not accept any deaths or injuries on our roads," says Hans Berg of the national transport agency. Swedes believe--and are now proving--that they can have mobility and safety at the same time.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-05-08, 20:56:59
This man, Jax, is a graph maniac.
He doesn't live in this world but somewhere inside his horrendous charts.
All of them wrong.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-05-08, 22:44:50
Maybe he was rubbish with geography at school and is proud to have caught up?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2014-05-29, 04:43:26
Meanwhile we had a bizarre reoccurring event here: Elections to the EU parliament.

For several diverse reasons, the population at large have no clue what that body is for. Correspondingly, in all countries the participation in these elections is lower than on any other. Instead of getting someone elected to make good decisions for us, in these elections we "send politicians to Brussels". The cynical interpretation of this is that we give our vote to the politician to get rid of him/her.

The so-called EU constitution reinforces a confused impression: Different from any normal parliament, this jolly body of ladies and gentlemen doesn't really decide any legislation. Rather, they may provide some topics of discussion for other supranational bodies who actually decide on directives and policies.

Looking at/hearing about the speeches held at the parliament, I always got the impression that the place is perfectly interchangeable with OSCE meetings. Whether the impression is right or wrong, it's not helping to make sense of anything.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: string on 2014-05-29, 13:34:46
 I'd like to see the current EU Parliament scrapped for as you say few people know or care who is in it. (~ 30% turnout in the UK for example). Instead I'd prefer a a new parliament, made up of elected members of national "parliaments" take their place, paid for at national level. and having duties at both National and European level . . .  So they would have some work to do.  They should be nominated by their national parties and reflect the political balance in their own country.

The European Parliament's decisions should need approval by national parliaments for application in their own country, and, except for designated issues, have the right of veto.

About 1 EMP per 4 million people?  Just 1 for the mini countries?

. . .   And they can scrap this nonsense business of having the EU Parliament in both Strasburg and Brussels.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2014-05-29, 20:45:26
The election of the far right in both the UK and France was notable in the afore-mentioned elections.

So too was the election of that far left bunch in Greece.

Seems to be quite the interesting time for the EU, for sure.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-05-29, 21:00:14
Europe is collapsing.
However, Europe's importance is such that it's collapse will lead the others to disappear. There's no tomorrow without Europe.
All this will take hundred years to solve, another dark ages are inevitably approaching .
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-05-30, 02:24:04
Years ago we had a referendum about joining the "Common Market." However this evolved into a political rubbish and we never got a referendum to accept that massive change did we? The EEC is a damn mess and it just cannot get out of the shambles over it's own currency and how thankful I am we kept the pound. And let us remember too that the EEC Parliament has never yet got it's books cleared by auditors so how do they still get away with that one? Try that in a business and you are out on your ear. Having two parliament buildings was another ridiculous travelling expense. They squabble well but cannot solve the financial debacle they self-created.

Personally, Europe is fine for a holiday and have been in France and the Netherlands twice but have nothing in common with it at al all and pleased we are separated by water. I wouldn't put the EEC in charge of a public lavatory.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2014-05-30, 04:29:06

There's no tomorrow without Europe.
All this will take hundred years to solve, another dark ages are inevitably approaching .

You mean another hundred years until dark ages? This is kind of disappointing. I am impatient already. I hope for a faster end of the world so my painful mortgage goes into the black hole of history sooner.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-05-30, 08:22:34
Bad news, Ersi. Mortgages will survive. That and taxes.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-05-30, 23:21:13
Too true Belfrager although I am content at the moment as my tax has been reduced......
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2014-05-31, 00:48:41
Quote from: Belfrager

......... Mortgages will survive. That and taxes.


Don't have any mortgages on any of my residences -- all paid in full, my property taxes have been paid years in advance, so the only taxes I really have to pay are related to sales in one way or another, so that's why I prefer to lease rather than own.

(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/beerCouch002.gif)  I'm patiently waiting for the Socialist Politicians to run out of other peoples money, so when the free stuff they've been promising all dries up, & the creditors demand payment, the government dependent peasants will rise up,  storm the gates, shoot all the politicians, & set fire to the socialized world!

When the fire dies out, & people come down to the harsh reality that nothing is actually 'free' -- it's all 'pay as you go', then we can start all over again....sort of like a rebirth so to speak. (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/awright005.gif)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-05-31, 05:27:55
my property taxes have been paid years in advance

You pay taxes in advance?
For the State, the last centime at the last minute, my motto.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2014-05-31, 08:39:17
You pay taxes in advance?
For the State, the last centime at the last minute, my motto.


Yep.
Taxes always goes up every year.
I pay 10 years in advance, at today's lower rates, for which I receive special access & future considerations if needed.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-05-31, 18:46:09
I pay 10 years in advance, at today's lower rates, for which I receive special access & future considerations if needed.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?action=reporttm;topic=163.184;msg=20896)

There are better, way better, investments.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2014-05-31, 23:38:52
There are better, way better, investments.


Well, If I ever needed intercession with any governmental agency, in say another State or even another country, I have opened doors to make the requests, & have successfully on many occasion, thanks to the invention of Alexander Graham Bell - the American Inventor & Citizen. (suck that up RJ)

Understand, that I do way more than simply paying my taxes in advance.....I've built parks & playgrounds out of my own pocket.

I've facilitated professional  instruction for hundreds of law enforcement officers in the use of self-defense, counter-terrorism techniques, & all degrees & forms of firearms & ballistics training at little or no cost.

An oh yes, I almost forgot, I've also made numerous political contributions, even to some demonrats.

These, just skim the surface. (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/exitstageright.gif)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-06-01, 01:16:16
A typical Republican ex-colonists there SmileyFaze, Represents people who think the tens of millions of US poor are un-American. Although Bell is taken as inventing sound communication there are others who were also in the field such as Innocenzo Manzetti and others. Bell was more fortunate than them. And anyway dear ne-co fanatic Bell came from Scotland so be thankful he left Edinburgh or you wouldn't be doing as you lot always do and think you can claim everything. Suck on that. We are drifting from Europe.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-06-04, 11:59:32
We just received a letter by the bank about something called FATCA. The Republican Party seems to have the right idea about it:

Quote from: https://www.abolishfatca.com/live/RNC_FATCA_Resolution.pdf
WHEREAS, The United States is effectively the only country in the world that taxes foreign income of its citizens who are living abroad and who already pay taxes where they reside, creating enormous reporting burdens for American taxpayers living overseas, and putting them at great risk for penalties for even the slightest innocent mistake;
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-06-06, 03:38:47
FATCA by reputation is significantly worse, but beg to differ about "only country". I have moved from Norway to Sweden but will still have to pay taxes to Norway for the next 3 (4) years.

Not to worry, the Swedish tax lady said, Sweden and Norway have a tax agreement, you won't be taxed twice (which is one thing that supposedly can happen with FATCA), we'll only take what Norway doesn't.

Great, so in the next few years I will live under a maximal tax regime. I will pay to Norway or to Sweden, whichever is to my greatest disfavour.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-06-06, 07:10:14
FATCA by reputation is significantly worse, but beg to differ about "only country". I have moved from Norway to Sweden but will still have to pay taxes to Norway for the next 3 (4) years.

Yet you are fully employed and residing in Sweden?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-06-06, 10:06:52
Wasn't there a news report that Europe now had a zero interest rate and no indication of progress? Thank goodnes Gt Britain never got involved with that damn currency. Our economy is now doing better than most across there.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2014-06-06, 10:21:55
The front page of ECB website always reflects the current key rates http://www.ecb.europa.eu/home/html/index.en.html

Quote
Marginal lending facility    0.40 %
Main refinancing operations (fixed rate)    0.15 %
Deposit facility    − 0.10 %


It's the deposit key rate which went negative a few days ago. The institutionally admitted deflation starts when the operations rate goes negative.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-06-06, 23:04:59
And not everyone in Europe is jumping for joy on sanctions either.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-09-19, 08:15:05
What Europe Would Look Like If All the Separatist Movements Got Their Way (http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_insider/2014/09/18/map_what_europe_would_look_like_if_all_the_separatist_movements_got_their.html)

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slate.com%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Fslate%2Fblogs%2Fbusiness_insider%2F2014%2F09%2F18%2Fseparatists1.jpg.CROP.original-original.jpg&hash=e89278be497376aad088a6169dd0bb00" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/business_insider/2014/09/18/separatists1.jpg.CROP.original-original.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-09-19, 12:54:56
Europe is already like that, it doesn't bothers me, by the contrary, that's Europe's biggest richness.

Maybe our friends from other places of the world don't realize that each and every one of those areas represents a People that identifies themselves since immemorial times as different from the neighbors, are recognized as being different by the others, speaks differently, thinks differently, and lives differently.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-09-19, 13:18:03
Not that immemorial...

Europeans drawn from three ancient 'tribes' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-29213892)

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbcimg.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F77640000%2Fgif%2F_77640634_europe_ancient_farmers_20140917-01.gif&hash=079935872312c0594b9d8229a0198506" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/77640000/gif/_77640634_europe_ancient_farmers_20140917-01.gif)
Quote
The modern European gene pool was formed when three ancient populations mixed within the last 7,000 years, Nature journal reports.

Blue-eyed, swarthy hunters mingled with brown-eyed, pale skinned farmers as the latter swept into Europe from the Near East.

But another, mysterious population with Siberian affinities also contributed to the genetic landscape of the continent.

The findings are based on analysis of genomes from nine ancient Europeans.

Agriculture originated in the Near East - in modern Syria, Iraq and Israel - before expanding into Europe around 7,500 years ago.

Multiple lines of evidence suggested this new way of life was spread by a wave of migrants, who interbred with the indigenous European hunter-gatherers they encountered on the way.

But assumptions about European origins were based largely on the genetic patterns of living people. The science of analysing genomic DNA from ancient bones has put some of the prevailing theories to the test, throwing up a few surprises.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbcimg.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F77650000%2Fjpg%2F_77650101_brana_i_final.jpg&hash=66778a9a4669f83956407c3b9501ebf2" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/77650000/jpg/_77650101_brana_i_final.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Macallan on 2014-09-19, 20:21:38

We just received a letter by the bank about something called FATCA. The Republican Party seems to have the right idea about it:

Quote from: https://www.abolishfatca.com/live/RNC_FATCA_Resolution.pdf
WHEREAS, The United States is effectively the only country in the world that taxes foreign income of its citizens who are living abroad and who already pay taxes where they reside, creating enormous reporting burdens for American taxpayers living overseas, and putting them at great risk for penalties for even the slightest innocent mistake;


Sanity from the republicans? Did I just see a pig flying by? :left: :right: :insane:

That said, I don't have income in .de, so I don't pay taxes there.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-09-19, 20:41:44
All the Separatist Movements (http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_insider/2014/09/18/map_what_europe_would_look_like_if_all_the_separatist_movements_got_their.html)

All? That's a bold claim. For example, Wikipedia comes with  a larger (but also slightly different?) number of active separatist movements (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe#mediaviewer/File:Active_separatist_movements_in_the_European_Union.svg).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Macallan on 2014-09-20, 00:39:46

All the Separatist Movements (http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_insider/2014/09/18/map_what_europe_would_look_like_if_all_the_separatist_movements_got_their.html)

All? That's a bold claim. For example, Wikipedia comes with  a larger (but also slightly different?) number of active separatist movements (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe#mediaviewer/File:Active_separatist_movements_in_the_European_Union.svg).

Yeah, I don't think there was an actual sorb separatist movement when I left .de - I think we'd have heard about it, they're just 150km south of where I used to live. Same with the Danes in .de and probably the Germans in Denmark. Looks like someone threw any party representing an ethnic minority together with the likes of the SNP, Herri Batasuna etc.

Also, the Bayernpartei is a fringe party that shows up on the occasional ballot, gets its 1% or so probably mostly from people outside Bavaria who would love to see the CSU go away, but otherwise seem to be little more than a bunch of grumpy old men who don't like us Saupreissn.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ensbb3 on 2014-09-20, 01:05:16
Saupreissn

Prussian pigs?  ???
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-09-20, 02:07:33
"That's not all" was my initial reaction as well. But the article and map are more specific than the headline, it's a map of the hopefuls that have joined the union, that is European Free Alliance. There are non-unionised separatists as well, and European separatists fully or partially outside the EU.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-09-20, 04:17:43
There are separatists and there are separatists.
Separatists since ever and separatists just since a couple days ago, those less one percent  and those that represents considerable percentages, peaceful and violent, activists and non activists, serious and just funny, constant and occasional, organized and unorganized, more cultural sided and more political sided, wanting independence and wanting autonomy, suffering repression and those being tolerated, etc, etc.

Being separatist offers people identity and a cause something that most European nations can't offer anymore.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Macallan on 2014-09-21, 00:27:52

Saupreissn

Prussian pigs?  ???

Indeed. An incredibly cliche bavarian slur for anyone from north of the Weißwurstäquator (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wei%C3%9Fwurst%C3%A4quator) :left:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-09-21, 18:26:07
Seems that either the EEC is a financial waste of time after what has happened to several countries and very much including Portugal. It is their that or they are incapable in Lisbon. Bet there are some older folks who sigh at the passing of Dr Salazar.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-09-21, 18:51:33
Beef.
Undercooked Beef... (http://www.theguardian.com/books/shortcuts/2014/sep/15/foreigner-view-england-portuguese-professor-book-undercooked-beef)

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-09-22, 13:22:51
Very clever my Portuguese associate...........would make a great dancer!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-09-24, 19:11:16
I don't know about British puddings made of stale bread, white or otherwise, but I'm quite sure Americans love what they call French toast (pain perdu in French). Bread pudding should be based on a similar principle by soaking it into e.g. milk and/or egg (or alcohol). In fact these kind of things tend to work better with stale bread.

Edit: typo
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-09-24, 21:24:43
Well we have French toast here in Gt Britain too my dear man.  8)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-09-25, 03:04:18
Of course Americans make it much better, since Brits don't know how to cook. Of course, Las Vegans make French Toast 23.72% better than anyone else in the world. The exception is The Peppermill, where they make it 29.59% better :yes:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-09-25, 11:26:38
:lol:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-09-26, 00:02:19
Ex-colonists are better at cooking? hhhm, wonder why the fill burger places so much?  :o
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2014-09-26, 06:59:13
This thread has a shortage of maps. Here are "38 maps that explain Europe (http://www.vox.com/2014/9/8/6103453/38-maps-that-explain-europe)", to a large extent also sourced from the Imgur-Reddit complex, so some maps would be familiar.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn2.vox-cdn.com%2Fuploads%2Fchorus_asset%2Ffile%2F674328%2FScreen_Shot_2014-06-23_at_5.07.38_PM2.0.png&hash=b791459c55672d39704e001d654854f2" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/674328/Screen_Shot_2014-06-23_at_5.07.38_PM2.0.png)
I believe Ethiopia escaped European control as well, so the map isn't complete.

Not that Europe has been immune either, this is a mpa over the the last time each European country was occupied (http://www.vox.com/2014/5/28/5758662/occupation-europe-map-ukraine). I wouldn't see UK as exempt like the map maker did, as the entity UK was created after the last occupation (notably in 1066), but if entities were used many other entries would be "none" as well, e.g. Germany or the Czech Republic.

I was mildly miffed by this map that arbitrarily cut off the map just below Oslo, Stockholm, Helsinki and other medium-sized airports. Gardermoen (Oslo) and Arlanda (Stockholm) have almost exactly the same number of passengers as Kastrup (Copenhagen)

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn3.vox-cdn.com%2Fuploads%2Fchorus_asset%2Ffile%2F672222%2FEuropeCent.0.png&hash=6272dcdcde1dfd813a0e21db71da6b43" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/672222/EuropeCent.0.png)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-09-26, 08:29:15
I believe Ethiopia escaped European control as well, so the map isn't complete.

Define Europe. In the other topic you shared a link to the map below... ;) To be fair, that would probably also pull Turkey into complete European control through the Greek/Roman/Byzanthine empires. Same for Iran.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn3.vox-cdn.com%2Fassets%2F4822044%2FRomanEmpire_117.svg.png&hash=99665c5c6fb8d1e068b6dd3885f7544e" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/assets/4822044/RomanEmpire_117.svg.png)

Not that Europe has been immune either, this is a mpa over the the last time each European country was occupied (http://www.vox.com/2014/5/28/5758662/occupation-europe-map-ukraine). I wouldn't see UK as exempt like the map maker did, as the entity UK was created after the last occupation (notably in 1066), but if entities were used many other entries would be "none" as well, e.g. Germany or the Czech Republic.

It also depends on how you define occupied (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glorious_Revolution).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-09-26, 08:49:48
the last time each European country was occupied (http://www.vox.com/2014/5/28/5758662/occupation-europe-map-ukraine).

It's not true that Portugal was occupied by Napoleon.
D. João VI just moved the capital from Lisbon to Rio de Janeiro, so Napoleon could only occupy our "European Province". :)
Not too many can say they had colonies in Europe... Besides us, I can only remember the Carthaginians.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-09-26, 11:55:34
Not too many can say they had colonies in Europe... Besides us, I can only remember the Carthaginians.

I thought England was a colony of Normandy. But perhaps more to the point, France and Italy were stock full of Greek colonies back then. :P
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-09-26, 13:41:04
Ok, you won Frenzie :)
I wanted to mean someone out of Europe having colonies here. Remember anyone besides Carthago? ah, and Phoenicians.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Macallan on 2014-09-26, 14:22:03

Not too many can say they had colonies in Europe... Besides us, I can only remember the Carthaginians.

I thought England was a colony of Normandy. But perhaps more to the point, France and Italy were stock full of Greek colonies back then. :P

Most of the roman empire. ( where do you think the name Cologne comes from? )
Also, this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostsiedlung). The various viking states in Britain, Normandy, Ireland, Russia etc., I'm sure there's more.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-09-26, 14:47:53
Vikings are Europeans. Well, more or less.

We even married one of our princesses with a viking king at the eleventh century. They liked her very much, she was mother of three different kings, not an usual thing. The second brother killed the older one and the third killed the second.
Queen Brunhilda I suppose they called her. (it was normal at the time to change a princess name for something more accordingly local costumes and language)

Petit Histoire it's always important. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-09-26, 15:18:45
I wanted to mean someone out of Europe having colonies here. Remember anyone besides Carthago? ah, and Phoenicians.

Didn't the Huns turn about half of Europe into a giant colony (a bit like the Roman Empire)?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2014-09-26, 16:40:53

I wanted to mean someone out of Europe having colonies here. Remember anyone besides Carthago? ah, and Phoenicians.

Didn't the Huns turn about half of Europe into a giant colony (a bit like the Roman Empire)?
Huns were of mixed origins, only partly from Asia. Mongols did some temporary conquests. But Turks still keep Constantinople (the old town is on the European side) and its surroundings captive. And Northern Cyprus.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-09-26, 20:20:30
Didn't the Huns turn about half of Europe into a giant colony (a bit like the Roman Empire)?

Yes... Attila...
Well, Attila conquests didn't survive his life, their sons starting wars between each other and lose everything their father conquered.
We can't speak about the maintenance of colonies in Europe by the Huns.

Of course, there's the Moors with the occupation of the Iberian Peninsula for so long, and that was something extraordinary that gave the Iberian populations a sagesse, culture and philosophy that can't be found anywhere else in Europe, but I don't want to speak about those ones.

Better to change the subject...  :right:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-09-26, 20:23:29
But Turks still keep Constantinople (the old town is on the European side) and its surroundings captive.

That's very true but Turks are a very special kind of Otomans.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-09-26, 20:45:59
Sorry for posting so consecutively, something that I don't like, but something just come to my mind when I mentioned the Ottomans.

Do you know who was the fiercest defender of Europe against the Ottoman Empire? Vlad, the Impaler.
Exactly, Vlad Tepes, the inspiration for Bram Stoker's Count Dracula.
A Romanian hero.

When everything was lost he just ordered to impale his own entire population at the "forest of the impaled". When the Ottoman Sultan saw such an horrendous spectacle he just retired horrorized and Vlad Tepes defended the entire Europe with the sacrifice of his own people.

The soon they could, Europeans leaders jailed him for life, where he died. He was a dangerous man...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Macallan on 2014-09-27, 00:45:42

Vikings are Europeans. Well, more or less.

Argh, somehow I missed the out of Europe part. Leaves the various Mongolian Khanates in eastern Europe. Spain under the Moors comes to mind as well, at least early on.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Macallan on 2014-09-27, 00:56:22

Well, Attila conquests didn't survive his life, their sons starting wars between each other and lose everything their father conquered.

They managed to hold on to some smallish part (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary) :right:


We can't speak about the maintenance of colonies in Europe by the Huns.

Yeah, colonies imply an organized state somewhere else which the Huns didn't really have.
One could make a similar case with Bulgaria - they also originally came from central asia, started a couple of states along the way ( Volga Bulgaria and such ), then settled down and got assimilated in the Balkans.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Macallan on 2014-09-27, 01:06:48

Do you know who was the fiercest defender of Europe against the Ottoman Empire? Vlad, the Impaler.
Exactly, Vlad Tepes, the inspiration for Bram Stoker's Count Dracula.
A Romanian hero.

Only had to do it after the Byzantine Empire finally fell. They spent most of their existence ( as a separate state ) fighting off ( and slowly but steadily losing to ) invaders from central asia. Would probably have held out a little longer if the Europeans hadn't screwed them over (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Constantinople_(1204)).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-10-24, 11:11:12
This seems to be going on in Europe:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-10-24, 12:19:23
 :D That's funny! :cheers:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2015-02-11, 15:37:49
Eurovision Song Contest: Australia to compete in 2015 (http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-31380742)
Quote
"It's a daring and at the same time incredibly exciting move. It is our way of saying let's celebrate this party together!" contest supervisor Jon Ola Sand said. Australia will be fast-tracked to the final, which will take place in Vienna, Austria, on 23 May.

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2015-02-12, 05:51:40
That opens up for a new definition of Europe.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F5%2F5e%2FEurovisionParticipants.svg%2F680px-EurovisionParticipants.svg.png&hash=2e8ccdec8db24598c1eec7ecfaa9042d" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/EurovisionParticipants.svg/680px-EurovisionParticipants.svg.png)

When will Australia join the EU? What about a name change to avoid confusion with Austria?

I also notice from the map that the Vatican State has never entered the European Song Contest.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-02-12, 07:08:03
That opens up for a new definition of Europe.

They'll have to reduce size to fit in. Maybe be represented by a dwarf pop singer.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2015-02-12, 11:33:33

When will Australia join the EU? What about a name change to avoid confusion with Austria?

In Russian, the names of Sweden and Switzerland are so close that people mix them up. What do you propose should be done about it?


I also notice from the map that the Vatican State has never entered the European Song Contest.

Vatican only has old songs that don't qualify. Eurovision wants fresh songs.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2015-02-12, 16:39:59

That opens up for a new definition of Europe.

Absolutely. One of our former Secretary of Defense already told us that we are defending Germany at the Hindu Kush.

I also notice from the map that the Vatican State has never entered the European Song Contest.

Another one missing is the organized crime, which got its own state - the Republic of Kosovo.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2015-02-12, 19:30:23
It's best to keep it geographical. Australia does not belong to Europe by any stretch of imagination.  Neither do Israel and Turkey. We already have Greece and that's quite enough. Israel and Turkey should participate in Arabvision, and Australia in whatever they have there.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-02-12, 21:27:53
Australia in whatever they have there.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?action=reporttm;topic=163.234;msg=35094)

They have nothing but Kangurus, colorful parrots and tt92. Ahh and sharks that eats surfers, but I agree, Europe is not prepared to receive Australians.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: tt92 on 2015-02-12, 22:35:00
Don't be unkind. The Australian oddities who would deign to perform in Eurovision would fit in perfectly, God help them.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2015-02-13, 03:56:08

Another one missing is the organized crime, which got its own state - the Republic of Kosovo.


There's a difference between these syndicates, the Vatican is eligible but hasn't participated, while Kosovo is ineligible, because the Vatican has a European Broadcasting Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Broadcasting_Union) member, Vatican Radio, while Kosovo's (RTK) and Liechtenstein's (1FLTV) applications are in the mail. This is a map of EBU members:

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F7%2F71%2FEBU_Member_Elliptic.svg%2F800px-EBU_Member_Elliptic.svg.png&hash=f93fb10ce4ab7e27f280b16020ff07a6" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/EBU_Member_Elliptic.svg/800px-EBU_Member_Elliptic.svg.png)

Only broadcasters in darker blue countries are active members. To be eligible for an active membership they have to be in a country that is either in the Council of Europe or inside the European Broadcasting Area.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F0%2F03%2FEuropean_Broadcasting_Area.png%2F640px-European_Broadcasting_Area.png&hash=039cf17332e2c5aa6cdfb5e3970becd8" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/European_Broadcasting_Area.png/640px-European_Broadcasting_Area.png)

The EBA, countries fully or partially in the red area, could be seen one possible future extent of the EU. In that case Saudi Arabia might become an EU member, but not Qatar.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-02-13, 06:54:12
I propose that now on the entire earth to be called European Union.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Barulheira on 2015-02-13, 10:58:10
I can see Europe from my house! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Guiana)
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F6%2F60%2FGuyane_map-en.svg%2F220px-Guyane_map-en.svg.png&hash=01550db8c1bf9d7244ad41451b35248a" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Guyane_map-en.svg/220px-Guyane_map-en.svg.png)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-02-14, 00:17:36
Do you live in French Guiana?
So nice, French colonization seems to be attractive until these days. Do they still have the guillotine?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-02-14, 01:00:11
Think they got rid of that barbarity some time ago.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Barulheira on 2015-02-15, 17:11:50

Do you live in French Guiana?

I would be inside Europe then. :left:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-02-15, 17:34:21


Do you live in French Guiana?

I would be inside Europe then. :left:
More or less... more less than more.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-02-15, 21:51:14


Do you live in French Guiana?

I would be inside Europe then. :left:

I'm in Europe and I can see Europe from my house. :D
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-02-15, 21:54:51
A regular Palin!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-02-16, 10:42:43
This video demonstrates what it's like to be a Jew in Paris.

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2015-02-16, 12:13:54
A little more extensively Swedish Uppdrag granskning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uppdrag_granskning) made a pair of programs a couple weeks ago, one about hatred against Jews (mostly in Malmö), and one about hatred against Muslim (much in my new home town in Södertälje).

Program 1: Hatred against Jews


Program 2: Hatred against Muslims
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2015-02-16, 12:59:04
Speaking of which, of sorts, there is an obituary, of sorts, of the Copenhagen copy-cat killer. Not found in English, but here in a Google translation (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aftenposten.no%2Fmeninger%2Fdebatt%2FTil-en-avdod-terrorist-7902558.html%23.VOG158ZKBvY.facebook&edit-text=&act=url) of a Norwegian translation from Danish, an ode to a waste of life.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Macallan on 2015-02-16, 13:39:16

I'm in Europe and I can see Europe from my house. :D

Can you see Europa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_%28moon%29) from your house? :right:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Barulheira on 2015-02-16, 16:03:47
I can listen to Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe_(band)).
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fthumb%2F7%2F7e%2FThe_Final_Countdown_single.jpg%2F220px-The_Final_Countdown_single.jpg&hash=e70ad04063db3539c254770207718840" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7e/The_Final_Countdown_single.jpg/220px-The_Final_Countdown_single.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2015-02-16, 19:43:44
I've been to the European home town (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upplands_V%C3%A4sby) (it was higher up on my shopping list than Södertälje, alas, nothing for sale).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2015-02-23, 09:33:52
This song will represent Estonia in the upcoming Eurovision.

What's the Australian one like?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2015-02-23, 11:38:31
It's Time to Kick Germany Out of the Eurozone (http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/20/its-time-to-kick-germany-out-of-the-eurozone/)

Quote from: Foreign Policy
Why the anchor dragging down the European economy isn't Athens -- it's Berlin.

(https://foreignpolicymag.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/462464866merkel.jpg?w=960&h=460&crop=1)

Since 2012, virtually all of the eurozone's net GDP growth, on an annual basis, has come from net exports -- further testament to the weakness of domestic European demand as a driver of growth. It's doubtful, however, whether relying on Americans to pile on more debt -- and risk going the way of Greece -- is really a reliable strategy. In principle, narrowing Europe's trade deficit with China makes more sense. But in practice, this has consisted less in tapping China's mass consumer market than in selling machinery and luxury goods into China's credit-fueled investment boom, which itself is predicated on maintaining an outsized trade surplus with the United States. The issue isn't -- as it's so often framed -- what's fair, but what's sustainable. And Americans playing the world's consumer of last resort, by borrowing to live beyond their means, isn't sustainable.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-02-23, 21:09:00
And Americans playing the world's consumer of last resort, by borrowing to live beyond their means, isn't sustainable.

Funny, I thought that it were the Portuguese that lived beyond their means... And the Greeks... And the Spanish... And the Italians...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-02-24, 01:34:23
It is unfortunate for many Greeks but the place is a bit of a basket place with a long history of political negative matters.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2015-02-24, 06:38:54

And Americans playing the world's consumer of last resort, by borrowing to live beyond their means, isn't sustainable.

Funny, I thought that it were the Portuguese that lived beyond their means... And the Greeks... And the Spanish... And the Italians...


American magazine primarily for an American audience. Yes, you [Americans] should learn from the Greeks and try a little austerity. It will be good for you.

(Actually American household debt has gone down a bit, to a little more than a year's work for each household; public/government debts are similar and growing, but it is more a question of political will than actual capability. US public debts are not that frightfully high, more scary is it that this "household" is headed by a married couple that can't agree on anything, how to spend, how to earn, how to save, how to manage their payment plan.)

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.economicshelp.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fblog-uploads%2F2013%2F01%2Fus-debt-composition.png&hash=b99da921be6464a9cb17eb9dd67c2c30" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/blog-uploads/2013/01/us-debt-composition.png)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-02-24, 10:02:39
Funny, I thought that it were the Portuguese that lived beyond their means... And the Greeks... And the Spanish... And the Italians...

You forgot the Irish.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-02-24, 10:08:32
American household debt

Credit card debt=$0.00
Student loan debt=$0.00
Car loan debt=$0.00
Mortgage debt=$yes.00
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-02-25, 21:39:07
What about the 40 million poor though jimbro??

Jax does have a point and how long can a country keep adding trillions to it's debt before it collapses? The same place better thank their new Commie pals for not calling in their debt!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-02-25, 22:02:03
What about the 40 million poor though jimbro??

Provide me with a definition of poor.

According to a piece in The Guardian, 13 million of the 64 million UK citizens are poor. The US has a population of 319 million, so if 40 million are poor we're doing better than the UK is.
"The official threshold for poverty in the UK is £13,920."

Your dislike of the US leads you to make silly claims because you don't do your homework.

However, neither of us have reason to brag.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/sep/05/poverty-uk-better-calling-it-inequality (http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/sep/05/poverty-uk-better-calling-it-inequality)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: tt92 on 2015-02-25, 22:10:05
How much of humanity aspires, enviously and hopelessly, to what the U.S. or the U.K. describes as poverty.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-02-25, 22:29:16
 :up:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2015-02-26, 03:49:43
The US economy is far from collapsing. The only worry is the political will to handle the public/government debt, the capability is clearly there. Much of the time managing it requires both Democrats and Republicans to agree, and creditors got worried when debt too became just another  plate for the couple to throw at each other.

Household debt is going down in the US.

We have numbers on what it takes to be globally rich. To be in the Global 1% by income, you need to make $35,000 (US) yearly. To be in the Global 1% jetset by wealth, you need a net wealth of $800,000. That basically means owning a house or nice apartment in an attractive neighbourhood, and having the mortgage paid off.

For different city centres flats to reach that 1% club membership would mean approximately
16 m2 (170 sq.ft) in Monaco
24 m2 (260 sq.ft) in London
39 m2 (420 sq.ft) in Hong Kong
48 m2 (520 sq.ft) in Moscow
52 m2 (560 sq.ft) in New York

(Since smaller flats are more expensive than bigger per square meter, you would probably have to pay more.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2015-02-26, 09:31:25
Yike! I could live in an Igloo... (If it was heated!)

When the world population hits 10 billion, it will taper off... But there are other considerations. It is not -yet, nor will it ever likely be- a One World.

The only thing that holds promise for the "third world" is cheap energy: Which is to say, hydrocarbons...

They will learn and prosper and mitigate -- much as we have.
Let them.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-02-26, 10:51:14
Well, sir, there was a time in history when the ultimate human conveyance was a horse. Now, however, ....
http://inhabitat.com/finlands-hotel-kakslauttanen-offers-unrivaled-views-of-northern-lights-from-your-own-private-thermal-glass-igloo/hotel-kakslauttanen-igloo-village2/?extend=1 (http://inhabitat.com/finlands-hotel-kakslauttanen-offers-unrivaled-views-of-northern-lights-from-your-own-private-thermal-glass-igloo/hotel-kakslauttanen-igloo-village2/?extend=1)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2015-05-22, 14:26:03
A map over what was going on in Europe between the years 2000 and 2013.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nordregio.se%2Ftemplates%2Fnordregio%2Fpages%2Ftni.aspx%3Fimgurl%3D%2FGlobal%2FMaps%2FPer%2520theme%2F01%2520Population%2520and%2520demography%2F2014%2F02193_Tot_pop_ch_Eur_0013_circles.jpg%26amp%3Bimgwidth%3D800&hash=de09406bf727eaa60606fc75710125d7" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.nordregio.se/templates/nordregio/pages/tni.aspx?imgurl=/Global/Maps/Per%20theme/01%20Population%20and%20demography/2014/02193_Tot_pop_ch_Eur_0013_circles.jpg&imgwidth=800)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-05-22, 22:22:48
To be in the Global 1% jetset by wealth, you need a net wealth of $800,000

Don't make me laugh. There's so many people with one million that you need to have a thousand millions to be someone.
Millionaires are not what they used to be, it's a much more restrict club, never so much was in the hands of so few.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2015-05-23, 02:10:49
Never?
Did your history lessons begin in 1700 A.D.? :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-05-23, 04:49:32
Don't know why you are hotting at Belfrager. In fact you should look at your own internal history and it is a disgraceful one for a place that claims all sorts of high principles. Considering your record you have no basis for digging at Portugal. Typical ex-colonist arrogance.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2015-05-23, 08:01:54
The global 1% is a select club of 70 million. The US 1% richest comprise 3.2 millon, the Swedish 1% would be 10,000 and could be squeezed into a room.

Like OakdaleFTL said wealth is more democratically divided now than previous in history, but there are plenty details to that story. In most of the 20th century wealth disparity was diminishing locally, inside a country, but greatly increasing globally, the rich countries were getting richer, the poor countries often poorer. This trend has largely turned now, rich countries are on the whole getting richer, but slowly, while many but not all poor countries are getting richer faster.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2015-05-23, 08:44:37

A map over what was going on in Europe between the years 2000 and 2013.

The map seems to be saying that everybody in the East has been busy moving to the West and South, particularly to Spanish Riviera and the coast of Asia Minor :left:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2015-05-23, 08:49:01
Yes, and the inland that isn't already emptied (much of it in Belfrager's nemesis country Germany, and most of the former Soviet Union) is quickly emptying. The exception being the inland capitals, Madrid, Moscow, Kiev...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-05-23, 11:17:36

Never?
Did your history lessons begin in 1700 A.D.? :)

Nope, I just shortened it so you can follow the reasoning. :)
This trend has largely turned now, rich countries are on the whole getting richer, but slowly, while many but not all poor countries are getting richer faster.

Yes... they passed from one dollar to two dollars a year. An hundred percent growth according to your statistic's pretty maps jax. :)

Wealth is nothing without Power. Before 1750 European populations had power, the number of powerful leaders that finished hanged from a tree demonstrates it well enough. How many powerful man do you see today hanged around?
Don't let fake money to fool you, wake up.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2015-05-24, 03:23:21
Wealth is nothing without Power.
I suspect -on the basis of this quip- that yours is one of those cultures predicated upon graft...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-06-12, 23:43:27

Wealth is nothing without Power.
I suspect -on the basis of this quip- that yours is one of those cultures predicated upon graft...

I don't understand what predicated upon graft means.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-06-13, 13:14:29
I don't understand what predicated upon graft means.

This might help.
http://www.reuters.com/video/2015/01/03/portugals-ex-pm-socrates-arrested-in-cor?videoId=347597476 (http://www.reuters.com/video/2015/01/03/portugals-ex-pm-socrates-arrested-in-cor?videoId=347597476)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-06-28, 07:26:23
More European news. Another of the PIIGS in trouble again.

Quote
BRUSSELS -- Europe's long standoff over Greece's debt moved into an unpredictable stage on Sunday, with tensions reaching their highest levels yet and the risk growing rapidly that Greece could crash out of the European currency.

On Saturday, eurozone finance ministers meeting in Brussels rejected Greece's request to extend its existing bailout program past a Tuesday deadline. Greece wanted the extension so it could hold a national referendum on July 5 to let voters decide whether the country should accept bailout aid under terms that the government of Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras bitterly opposes.

Then, early Sunday morning, lawmakers in Athens voted to go forward with the referendum, after a day on which many Greeks lined up at cash machines to withdraw money from banks out of concern that a fresh financial crisis could be at hand.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/28/world/europe/for-eurozone-a-day-of-dueling-agendas-on-greek-debt.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/28/world/europe/for-eurozone-a-day-of-dueling-agendas-on-greek-debt.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-06-28, 07:49:05
The whole thing is becoming an unfortunate farce. Greece lived beyond itself and now wants to play games with the lenders> One of those funds is provided by European taxes and Greece caused the mess itself. The whole EU thing is a waste of time as far as I am concerned. I never got to vote on the way the damn system became as it now is. Years ago we voted on a Common Market not for a European Government and another expensive raft of politicians. At least we are now getting a Referendumon thething. It should never have been allwed to move from a trade thing to a political arena and the crisis over it's currency, etc is dragging on for years. I want out.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-06-28, 08:15:43
Greece debt it's totally irrelevant.
The Greek government is the only government in Europe (and probably the entire world) doing what is it's raison d'etre, represent the  People's will expressed trough democratic elections.
That's what makes so furious Germans and the others.

Europe without Greece would be an aberration. As we can see everyday the Teutonic "democratic" mask is falling, they don't even wear it anymore.
I'm proudly with Greece and its brave people in the defense of European civilizational values.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2015-06-29, 01:29:37

The whole thing is becoming an unfortunate farce. Greece lived beyond itself and now wants to play games with the lenders> One of those funds is provided by European taxes and Greece caused the mess itself. The whole EU thing is a waste of time as far as I am concerned. I never got to vote on the way the damn system became as it now is. Years ago we voted on a Common Market not for a European Government and another expensive raft of politicians. At least we are now getting a Referendumon thething. It should never have been allwed to move from a trade thing to a political arena and the crisis over it's currency, etc is dragging on for years. I want out.

History in the making here; rjhowie finally types out correctly, "EU", rather than EEC.

:faint: :faint: :faint:


Well done Howie!  :cheers:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-06-29, 02:07:26
Well dear man it was the EEC years ago and we did not get the chance to vote on the EU bunk. Now thankfully, I will get the chance and I hope the majority are for getting out. We only voted decades ago for a trade thing not this monster economical disaster. And do remember this. Annually tyhe books are never cleared by the auditors due to dodgy stuff. If someone ran a company like that they would be shut down or jailed for incompetence and corruption. It is a waste of money and all we are doing like the other big States is keeping the wee countries alive as they were mostly incapable of doing so themselves.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2015-07-08, 15:59:33
What went on in Europe (http://ourworldindata.org/data/war-peace/war-and-peace-before-1945/#years-in-which-european-countries-took-part-in-an-international-war-1500-2000-max-roserref).

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fourworldindata.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F08%2Fourworldindata_europe-only-armedconflictsinternational.png&hash=3f0fc4ad386fd507f9a9ab43451a8603" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://ourworldindata.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/ourworldindata_europe-only-armedconflictsinternational.png) (http://ourworldindata.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/ourworldindata_europe-only-armedconflictsinternational.png)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-07-08, 19:10:41
I'm moving to Malta.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-07-08, 22:51:10
I protest against such statistic that make us look as sissy pacifists. And before 1500??
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-07-11, 08:18:40
Well, in Greece this is going on.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.telegraph.co.uk%2Fmultimedia%2Farchive%2F03371%2F110715-MATT-WEB_3371876a.jpg&hash=fd02735d44aa92a7d7c6cf93b8a09758" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03371/110715-MATT-WEB_3371876a.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-07-11, 12:18:46
I'm moving to Malta.

Do you have an idea what Malta is? 99,9% of Catholics, one of our strongest bastions. :)
La Valletta, it's capital, it's very beautiful.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-07-11, 15:28:57
Do you have an idea what Malta is? 99,9% of Catholics, one of our strongest bastions.  :)
La Valletta, it's capital, it's very beautiful.

Coming from a whole family of Catholics, I  :heart: them.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fsmileyfaze.tk%2Fslides%2Fbiblethumper.gif&hash=37a131bc44e844626488e619ca760a33" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://smileyfaze.tk/slides/biblethumper.gif)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-07-20, 08:01:52
Subtle hypocrite.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-07-20, 10:50:48

Subtle hypocrite.

It's true, Sir Howie.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-07-21, 03:13:23
Because they are R.C? Haha, brilliant!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2015-07-22, 08:05:44
Hate the sin, love the sinner, RJ! (Or be something other than a Christian...) Oh! That's right: You're an Orangeman... Never mind. March on!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-07-22, 09:45:51

I'm moving to Malta.

Do you have an idea what Malta is? 99,9% of Catholics, one of our strongest bastions. :)
La Valletta, it's capital, it's very beautiful.

Hardly surprising since Catholicism is the state religion. Goodness, not even the Vatican has a state religion.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-07-23, 01:27:37
Well Oakdale our organisation had a big Orangefest in Glasgow's main George Square outside the City Chambers. We even invited the archbishop of the white socks man  fans along as a guest as well as the Irish government representative in Scotland. As we have been on the go since 1795 we are marching well.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-07-25, 11:27:43
I read that in Belgium they are studying a law to retire civil rights, as voting, to people that have committed fiscal frauds (obviously accused and judged by the very same that wants to make such a law).

The New Totalitarianism spreads all over the place under the passivity of bovine populations. When it goes on in Europe it goes on all over the world.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2015-07-25, 12:37:26
That's the case of many countries including the US. Typical feelgood policies to make the lawmakers, or their constituency, feel good about themselves,  not to actually do good. In this case it is mostly harmless unless done to such an extent it would actually make a difference, and there are much more efficient ways to bend the voting system to your ends.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-07-25, 12:50:19
Typical feelgood policies to make the lawmakers, or their constituency, feel good about themselves,  not to actually do good. In this case it is mostly harmless unless done to such an extent it would actually make a difference, and there are much more efficient ways to bend the voting system to your ends.

Sorry but you're being short sighted jax. It's not the efficaciousness of the result that matters but the precedent on opening a practice of retiring rights to people.

It opens two new ways: a) retiring rights to more and more people and b) retiring more things than just voting.
At the same time it institutionalizes fiscal matters as supreme values over human basic values. That's inadmissible.

(Electoral results are already a fraud, since political parties don't represent the nation. They don't need to bother with it.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-07-25, 12:54:39
The New Totalitarianism spreads all over the place under the passivity of bovine populations. When it goes on in Europe it goes on all over the world.

All parties, both "left" and "right", are disturbingly authoritarian these days. :(
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2015-07-25, 19:59:21
When it goes on in Europe it goes on all over the world. (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?action=reporttm;topic=163.294;msg=43574)

Not necessarily... The U.S. may yet escape aping Europe. (Just don't get into another war!) Let's see what happens, after the next election.
All parties, both "left" and "right", are disturbingly authoritarian these days.  :(

Isn't that what "liberals" wanted? :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-07-25, 20:15:59
Isn't that what "liberals" wanted?  :)

Clearly both social-democrats and liberals wanted it that way, or it wouldn't be that way now? :P
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-07-25, 21:43:57
All parties, both "left" and "right", are disturbingly authoritarian these days.  :(

You see the light, good. Now, act.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2015-07-26, 08:54:14

Typical feelgood policies to make the lawmakers, or their constituency, feel good about themselves,  not to actually do good. In this case it is mostly harmless unless done to such an extent it would actually make a difference, and there are much more efficient ways to bend the voting system to your ends.

Sorry but you're being short sighted jax. It's not the efficaciousness of the result that matters but the precedent on opening a practice of retiring rights to people.

Not all slopes are slippery and this stupidity has all sorts of precedents including as mentioned the US. Of course Wikipedia has an article about it: Felony disenfranchisement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_disenfranchisement)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-07-26, 09:56:21
Not all slopes are slippery and this stupidity has all sorts of precedents including as mentioned the US. Of course Wikipedia has an article about it: Felony disenfranchisement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_disenfranchisement)

In many places (including here) people that are in prison can't vote exactly because being in prison means being prevented of exercising basic civil rights such as going wherever you want to go - you can't, you are arrested.

What irritates me is to consider fiscal irregularities so serious act as killing or robbing someone. If this continues like that, someday we'll be "disenfranchised" for smoking or crossing the street outside the walking passage.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-07-26, 15:03:46
ersi might be interested to know that I just noticed the BBC has a podcast on Estonia's Russian Problem (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02vmdm4).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-08-27, 14:20:07
This is going on in Bromley, England, near London.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/06/25/article-2668507-1F14713C00000578-146_964x660.jpg (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/06/25/article-2668507-1F14713C00000578-146_964x660.jpg)
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fc.files.bbci.co.uk%2F15A3B%2Fproduction%2F_85053688_85053687.jpg&hash=49d3162bae50168a6cfc48c4bc033205" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://c.files.bbci.co.uk/15A3B/production/_85053688_85053687.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2015-08-27, 16:32:20

ersi might be interested to know that I just noticed the BBC has a podcast on Estonia's Russian Problem (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02vmdm4).

Did you listen to it too?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-08-27, 19:54:56
Not yet.

(And that's barely including any BBC podcasts, actually.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: tt92 on 2015-08-27, 20:33:19

This is going on in Bromley, England, near London.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/06/25/article-2668507-1F14713C00000578-146_964x660.jpg (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/06/25/article-2668507-1F14713C00000578-146_964x660.jpg)
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fc.files.bbci.co.uk%2F15A3B%2Fproduction%2F_85053688_85053687.jpg&hash=49d3162bae50168a6cfc48c4bc033205" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://c.files.bbci.co.uk/15A3B/production/_85053688_85053687.jpg)

What does it all mean?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-08-28, 18:57:25
It means that all the neighbors in Bromley have the joy of living next to a gigantic mountain of trash.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Barulheira on 2015-08-28, 19:53:39

all the neighbors in Bromley
Pity both...  :cry:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-08-30, 00:27:43
Some midden.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2015-11-13, 22:43:47
Multiple, apparently coordinated, terrorist attacks ongoing in Paris this Fri 13th http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34814203
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-11-13, 23:24:44
Maybe we finally realize that we are in war, even if pushed by others to get in.
I wonder where's the European army to response... maybe the usual bunch of pacifists can answer.

Vive la France.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2015-11-14, 02:36:08
Maybe we finally realize that we are in war
From your lips to God's ear, Belfrager...
My country must await the presidential election before we -again- realize that when war is declared on you, no rhetorical answer suffices.

The Long War continues... Too many of us thought to sleep through it.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-11-14, 11:48:36
The Long War continues... Too many of us thought to sleep through it.

Consequences of post modernist culture and it's indefinition of things.

Such atrocities couldn't serve better those against Europe receiving refugees.
Europe's identity its being destroyed, walls are being mounted and, soon, we'll be doing what we never imagined to be possible. Hospitality and humanitarian principles are under full attack.
That's how entire nations and populations are driven into terror.

If Europe fails to hold and maintain our civilizational principles, there will be nothing in the world to substitute it.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2015-11-15, 01:50:36
I'm sorry, Belfrager: I find nothing to argue with in your post...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2015-12-07, 14:27:26
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn1.matadornetwork.com%2Fblogs%2F1%2F2015%2F11%2FCheapest-Cities-in-Europe.jpg&hash=9481f3ce503ec0d63e89d05418a8c04c" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn1.matadornetwork.com/blogs/1/2015/11/Cheapest-Cities-in-Europe.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-12-07, 23:39:14
That graphic is a shit. An absolute and complete shit.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-12-08, 03:56:18
Meanwhile elsewhere in Europe the National Front soars to new heights in the France Regional Elections.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2015-12-08, 04:55:27

Meanwhile elsewhere in Europe the National Front soars to new heights in the France Regional Elections.

And do you approve or disapprove of this?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2015-12-08, 17:21:18

That graphic is a shit. An absolute and complete shit.

What does it say?
Generally speaking - the poorer the country, the more low priced for foreign tourists it is.
I'm missing capitals like Tirana, Pristina and Podgorica from the chart. They must be among the cheapest...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2015-12-08, 17:54:30

That graphic is a shit. An absolute and complete shit.
I also don't like the colours. And I don't believe that meals in Kiev are more expensive than in Poland.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-12-08, 18:25:12
What does it say?
Generally speaking - the poorer the country, the more low priced for foreign tourists it is.

Worst than that. What it says is that we must all live by the same patterns, in this case, the "Daily Backpacker Index".

Funny that everyday Ukraninans runs away from the nº1 daily backpacker pseudo index of cheapest cities while no one has ever heard about a massive touristic invasion at Kiev.

Anyway, I don't care, tourism for the masses should be forbidden. It's nothing but one of the tentacles of the new order, reinvented upon the Nazi's invention of a touristic network of hotels for the low classes.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-12-09, 18:45:24
Nice try southern boy. I am not an ex-colonist so not keen on interfering with the internal affairs of others!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-12-09, 23:45:23
Marine Le Pen is winning, that's what it counts in Europe.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-12-11, 22:42:27
 :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2015-12-23, 05:12:06

Nice try southern boy. I am not an ex-colonist an old imperialist who may or may not have learned to not be interfering with the internal affairs of others!

Fixed that for you old chap!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-12-25, 11:07:34
Not surprised the government of the ex-colonies is concerned about it's education system and it was a distraction Colonel reminding us.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-12-31, 21:08:27
Not surprised the government of the ex-colonies is concerned about it's education system and it was a distraction Colonel reminding us.

Among my duties as teacher of English grammar, correct sentence structure fell into my bailiwick. Had you been my student, that sentence might not have been written, my ex-imperialist friend.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-01-01, 05:46:01
Dare say it would not have but unfortunately the massive and widespread problem out with your bailiwick is a massive challenge.F

rom an unashamed imperial lover to one to a friend who still has to live with it locally (well maybe put up with it would be better).  :doh:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-01-06, 03:24:39
Unfortunately, Google doesn't have a Howie to English translator. What does that post mean? :confused:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-01-06, 04:06:17
I will make allowances for any person who isick and minimally brained and falls on such rhetoric due to that background. He just repeats what he acted like in earlier times.  Basis for a run-of-the-mill ex-colonist I submit.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-01-06, 12:07:04
There should be a comma between "ex-colonist" and "I." This is an English language forum, Howie. Of course, Nevada was never a colony of the British Empire. That being the case, in what way am I an 'ex-colonist?'
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ensbb3 on 2016-01-06, 20:49:21
The same way he's an Englishman. Lol.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-01-06, 20:59:24
Of course, Nevada was never a colony of the British Empire. That being the case, in what way am I an 'ex-colonist?'

There's this other Empire... starts with an S. :P
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2016-01-06, 23:32:40
Something to chew on: It's been quite a while since any part of the United States was a colony of any European power. Nevada, when it was a colony, was part of the Mexican/Californian segment of Spanish holdings. The Southern states West of Georgia were likely either French or Spanish. The only part of the US that RJ could rightfully claim as "ex-colonies" is the 13 colonies on the Eastern Seaboard and that part of the Upper Midwest that England and France kept sparring over.

North of the US-Canadian border--- I hear tell that Canada still swears allegiance to the Crown. Though the province of Quebec occasionally wants to argue the point so they can be French.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ensbb3 on 2016-01-07, 11:01:05
Actually Tennessee, and most of the mid-southern lands between the Mississippi River and Appalachians, was never directly a European colony. Explored by the Spanish and French but Dutch trappers were probably the closest to settlers there ever was in that era. Tho many tried to lay claim the land remained in Native American hands until, I'm pretty sure, an already independent North Carolina struck a deal for what amounts to the Cumberland Plateau region. (Parts of KY and TN) As other States laid claim to lands southwest of the Appalachian Mountain chain you see the formation of the modern borders but these were more frontiers to would-be nation states at the time. 

Selected provenience is hardly anything more than ignorance in his case. I'd accept another explanation... Just not from the man who believes the most evil empire that has ever existed is missed by this world. Only hardcore Nazi could quake in envy of such a destructive force.   
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-01-07, 11:28:24
Something to chew on: It's been quite a while since any part of the United States was a colony of any European power.

To chew on? Most of Europe was a colony of Germany far more recently. :P
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2016-01-07, 13:40:28

Something to chew on: It's been quite a while since any part of the United States was a colony of any European power.

To chew on? Most of Europe was a colony of Germany far more recently. :P


Germany was trying to grab more, too. The whole reason for the Eastern Front was to attempt to grab as much of Russia as they could. Figured if they could knock off Russia, the UK would have to sue for peace.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ensbb3 on 2016-01-07, 14:33:54
Most of Europe was a colony of Germany far more recently.  :P

Inside the nuance of this discussion I might have to argue that distinction. :right:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-01-07, 23:18:36
Most of Europe was a colony of Germany far more recently.

You're not speaking about us. Us as in me, not you.  :P
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-01-08, 04:48:07
Well for a long time back the system that ran Portugal in part of the 20th century being one-party kept the Germany of the period content not to bother. But in the EEC unfortunately it was Germany doing it's 4th political Reich that was in charge especially of the smaller nations on financial matters. I know there are money difficulties on the country but if people were to stop being proud of their land no matter the size it would be the slipping slope to being nothing.

My only real moan about Portugal is long historical and the way the last King was dealt with.... :(
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-01-08, 13:17:14
First the good news.
After several years of construction work, Lepe (Spain) finally got a new hospital for €21 million. Lepe is a town in Andalusia near by the border to Portugal.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn1.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-941960-galleryV9-hefr-941960.jpg&hash=d3ad4b65075a9130064c522b14e7dcc7" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn1.spiegel.de/images/image-941960-galleryV9-hefr-941960.jpg)

Now the bad news.
Unfortunately the hospital can't start running because it lacks water and electric supply as well as an access road.

What puzzles me most - if you start a construction, first thing you need is an access road except you drop the building material from the air...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-01-09, 12:40:17
Unfortunately the hospital can't start running because it lacks water and electric supply as well as an access road.

It's perfectly normal an infraestrutcture to be ready awaiting for months if not years until opened to the public. Mysteries of election's calendars.

I just read that in China they do the opposite, demolishes Hospitals with the patients and doctors inside... (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-09/chinese-hospital-demolished-with-patient-still-inside/7078748)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-01-10, 08:51:46
It's perfectly normal an infraestrutcture to be ready awaiting for months if not years until opened to the public. Mysteries of election's calendars.
You actually believe that shit?
It's no longer the Old World; it's the Sclerotic World... :(

(About your link: Breaking news is usually wrong, about almost everything... Except the gullibility of those who consume it.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-01-10, 11:48:11
You actually believe that shit?

I don't "believe", I'm telling you how things are.

As for my link, I didn't even noticed from where it is since I had to go to "your part of internet", meaning English spoken,  cause you know no other language. English sources are all the same.

Forced demolishions are common in China, so no surprise.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-01-10, 22:13:31
It's the wonder of multiple budgets. In this case there doesn't seem to be any EU funding, but Prague has recently opened three stations on the way to Václav Havel airport. In the closest one to the airport the planners "forgot" to install elevators. They claimed that when they got the funding from the city, country, and particularly the EU, they didn't dare to change the plans even when they were faulty. Solution? Hire some strappy men to carry the luggage up/down the stairs, and get the elevator on the city budget at a later date.

The hospital in question is in Andalucia, Southern Spain. I imagine there would be some sneering involved. Andalucia does not have high status in Spain, at least among the sneering classes. It would be something similar to Arkansas or... Mississippi in the US, or Henan province in China, the site of the enthusiastic demolition attempt (http://the site of the enthusiastic demolition attempts).

Heads will roll, though fortunately the only ones hurt were the ones that were already dead. MSF were not so lucky when the Americans decided to demolish a hospital (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/msf-calls-for-us-to-allow-war-crimes-probe-in-afghan-hospital-shelling/article27935832/).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-01-11, 07:40:06
Is this (https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/europe-disintegration-geopolitical-danger-by-nouriel-roubini-2016-01?utm_source=Project+Syndicate+Newsletter&utm_campaign=02bb7aa2c9-Roubini_2016_The_Europe_Question_in_2016_1_10_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_73bad5b7d8-02bb7aa2c9-93466529) cogent analysis?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-01-11, 23:50:41
Is this (https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/europe-disintegration-geopolitical-danger-by-nouriel-roubini-2016-01?utm_source=Project+Syndicate+Newsletter&utm_campaign=02bb7aa2c9-Roubini_2016_The_Europe_Question_in_2016_1_10_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_73bad5b7d8-02bb7aa2c9-93466529) cogent analysis?

"was Senior Economist for International Affairs in the White House's Council of Economic Advisers during the Clinton Administration. He has worked for the International Monetary Fund, the US Feder..."

This is not an analysis, it's propaganda.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-01-12, 07:10:11
"was Senior Economist for International Affairs in the White House's Council of Economic Advisers during the Clinton Administration. He has worked for the International Monetary Fund, the US Feder..."
I suspect that's as far as you read, Bel...

Was Portugal ever under Islamic rule?

Here's a more interesting question: Would Portugal prefer to join the Caliphate or be kicked out of the EU? :) Those are pretty much your only options, aren't they?
But why, I ask you, should Portugal not be an independent country?
You know more answers to this question than I do. And I'm disinterested.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-01-12, 09:46:37

Is this (https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/europe-disintegration-geopolitical-danger-by-nouriel-roubini-2016-01?utm_source=Project+Syndicate+Newsletter&utm_campaign=02bb7aa2c9-Roubini_2016_The_Europe_Question_in_2016_1_10_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_73bad5b7d8-02bb7aa2c9-93466529) cogent analysis?

I read a bit further than the guys credentials. It's all bad as far as I read it. His credentials partly overlap with mine (in my case the Estonian equivalent of it), so I know he is in propaganda business, because I used to have a similar job for a while.

The first paragraph is a list of so-called facts distorted by narrow perspective. It's designed to confuse the reader. The rest is silly speculation. If you buy the first paragraph, you buy too much.

The main point of the article is true - Europe is not united. And it may officially fall apart. But not in the way and not for the reasons cited. The thing is, European Union was never properly united. Every member is using its sluggish bureaucracy, technocratic force, and dripping finances for their own selfish purposes. And it seems to serve everybody's selfish purposes, no matter how contradictory, rather well, therefore the EU will stand for the foreseeable future. There's no Grexit or Brexit in sight.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-01-14, 00:05:47
The thing is, European Union was never properly united. Every member is using its sluggish bureaucracy, technocratic force, and dripping finances for their own selfish purposes. And it seems to serve everybody's selfish purposes, no matter how contradictory, rather well, therefore the EU will stand for the foreseeable future.

Yes and no.

European Union has always to deal with three permanent fractures or dividers. Richer North/Poorer South; Central Locations/Peripheric locations; Western Europe/Eastern Europe.

Besides that, Nationalist forces grows, Extreme Left grows, while Germany acts as the Fourth Reich.

Besides, English are an American fifth column and nothing else.

Besides, the Protestants keeps their strategy of money worship and destruction of values.

If not enough, the Mediterranean, the Mare Nostrum, has turned into the Mare Islamicus.

And much much more, much more than most DnD posters are able to comprehend.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2016-01-14, 15:19:39
Besides, the Protestants keeps their strategy of money worship and destruction of values.

It's a well-known fact that Catholics don't like money.
Quote
Catholic priests are expected to make a vow of poverty, so it is ironic that the church is actually the richest religion in the world. The Catholic Church owns some of the greatest art works ever made. It also has vast gold deposits and billions of dollars in assets. It also earns a significant amount of income from the tourism sector as the Vatican is considered an independent city-state. It also has more than a billion members around the world.


Quote
Charles and David Koch, the Libertarian-turned-Republican brothers, are both Catholic.  They're worth $25 billion each.


Carlos Slim, the Catholic Mexican, is worth $75.5 billion.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-01-14, 15:48:59
Quote
It also earns a significant amount of income from the tourism sector as the Vatican is considered an independent city-state.

Ah yes, I've directly contributed to the Catholic's Church wealth that way. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2016-01-14, 15:52:25
Bless you, my brother!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-01-14, 16:48:21
I also frequent their cathedrals all over Europe, either paying for entrance (e.g. right here in Antwerp) or leaving (small) donations for maintenance and whatnot. But of course I don't limit myself to Catholic places of worship.

Today I had an interesting philosophical discussion with a street preacher of sorts. He was a Brahman. I donated some change to support their efforts for schooling poor children in India. Hopefully I'm not too misguided, but he seemed quite genuine and knowledgeable.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-01-14, 18:19:50
Belfrager gave me a laugh when he commented that Protestants keeps their strategy of money worship and destruction of values.

Kind of ironic of course considering the history of the RC Church and that smelly Bank they have run and was a hiding ground for crime money, etc. It even caused a murder in London once when a former senior member of that lot was murdered under Blackfriars Bridge . Talk about Vatican banking and corruption!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-01-14, 23:10:07
He was a Brahman

Very European.

As for the protestant envy about the Catholic richness (that depending on the protestant mood varies between extremely rich and totally ruined...) I mention the Templar's motto already eight hundred years ago, Not for us, not for us but to Your Glory.
:lol:

Shut up and learn.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-01-15, 10:34:52
As for the protestant envy about the Catholic richness (that depending on the protestant mood varies between extremely rich and totally ruined...)

If the Catholic Church were short of liquid funds it would be simultaneously extremely rich and totally ruined. No contradictions or variations necessary.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-01-15, 16:09:26
The meaning of "glory" is highly debatable.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-01-16, 14:43:51
The meaning of "glory" is highly debatable.

Yeah... charging a 10% religious tax to people, as so many of your Brasilian protestant evangelist churches do, is not debatable at all...
If the Catholic Church were short of liquid funds it would be simultaneously extremely rich and totally ruined. No contradictions or variations necessary.

I don't know about the Church's balance sheet but it has a gigantic patrimony that resulted from many people's donations and wills while cash income sources are not too much. It seems that Catholic economists do a better job than government ones. Probably guided by the Holy Spirit. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2016-01-16, 14:54:31
Quote
It seems that Catholic economists do a better job than government ones. Probably guided by the Holy Spirit. :)

(https://img1.etsystatic.com/027/0/9155497/il_570xN.614151285_76ub.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-01-16, 15:47:44
Maybe spirits like this....

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.jackdaniels.com%2Finstagram%2Fimg%2Fjackfamily.png&hash=ddcfd46f498fb6173ea06e5e6e203845" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://web.jackdaniels.com/instagram/img/jackfamily.png)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-01-16, 16:24:59
RC economists do a better job. Hope the Vatican Bank was not included in that sublission??
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-01-17, 14:49:43
Somebody's sins aren't justified by somebody else's.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2016-01-20, 21:48:44

Maybe spirits like this....

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.jackdaniels.com%2Finstagram%2Fimg%2Fjackfamily.png&hash=ddcfd46f498fb6173ea06e5e6e203845" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://web.jackdaniels.com/instagram/img/jackfamily.png)

Don't fall in Father!
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.huffpost.com%2Fgen%2F1642386%2Fthumbs%2Fo-POPE-FRANCIS-COMMUNION-570.jpg&hash=37605b38e798fa6ecd3f6661fa0a7aae" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1642386/thumbs/o-POPE-FRANCIS-COMMUNION-570.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-01-21, 22:14:30
Huh. That better not be Irn Bru.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-01-23, 11:17:48
Meanwhile, the world would be satisfied to know that tomorrow Portugal will vote for a new President of the Republic.  :zzz:

The smell of rottenness and putrefaction continues while the vermin candidates feast on the Nation's left overs.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-01-24, 02:58:55
Kind of sad situation.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-01-28, 00:03:42

There should be a comma between "ex-colonist" and "I." This is an English language forum, Howie. Of course, Nevada was never a colony of the British Empire. That being the case, in what way am I an 'ex-colonist?'

As for us, the Brits only controlled "Mississippi" (at that time, both MS and Alabama were one state before Bammer broke away) for 16 years. The French ruled us for 81 years, and of course, the Spanish ruled us for 6 years.

So in order:

1. French territory: 1682-1763
(https://www.ms.gov/Style%20Library/portal/images/about/bourbonFlag.gif)

2. British territory: 1763-1779
(https://www.ms.gov/Style%20Library/portal/images/about/britishRed.gif)

3. Spanish territory: 1779-1785
(https://www.ms.gov/Style%20Library/portal/images/about/spanishCastile.gif)

4. *US territory: 1798-1816  *(Republic of West Florida (again a Spanish possession) for 10 days in 1810)
(West Florida flag)
(https://www.ms.gov/Style%20Library/portal/images/about/republicWestFlorida.gif)

(Otherwise Old Glory flew aside from the 10 day West Florida Gov't)

5. US State: 1817-1861, 1865- present.

(Magnolia Flag in use from 1861-1865, and it is the heavy favorite to replace the current one, should the need/vote arise)
(https://www.ms.gov/Style%20Library/portal/images/about/msMagnolia.JPG)

(Current flag been in use since 1894, but was officially removed as "official" flag in 1906, and in 2001 it was reaffirmed as "official" status, so 1894-1906 (officially, 1906-2001 "de facto", and 2001- present "official".)
(https://www.ms.gov/Style%20Library/portal/images/about/stateFlag.jpg)




So if we have to vote on the flag again, and this time if a vote to change it happens, I'll be lobbying for the initial flag from the French, as it would tell Mr. Howie to get stuffed.  :yikes:

Also, my point being, Mr. Howie's imperial arrogance can bug off.
81 years a French possession> 16 years a Brit possession.


Q.E.D.     :knight:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-01-28, 02:04:44
And that official flag of the French was a Royal one representing a country that terribly kept the peasantry down thus creating the vile and disgusting Revolution. Then after you broke from us you spread west out of the 13 colonies that we were content to keep to. You created dozens of other States massacring the population (Indians - seeing you were educated in the ex-colonies) who were the peasantry of the time. Hey!Maybe you were right to take the French Royal flag?! You are getting a bit desperate Colonel like racoon brain.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-01-29, 15:02:29

And that official flag of the French was a Royal one representing a country that terribly kept the peasantry down thus creating the vile and disgusting Revolution. Then after you broke from us you spread west out of the 13 colonies that we were content to keep to. You created dozens of other States massacring the population (Indians - seeing you were educated in the ex-colonies) who were the peasantry of the time. Hey!Maybe you were right to take the French Royal flag?! You are getting a bit desperate Colonel like racoon brain.

Couple of events for you, regarding our genocide of Native Americans, that you might consider before cottoning on further, as they are your own episodes of genocide: Boer genocide, Mau-Mau genocide, deliberately starving the Irish, etc.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-01-30, 02:09:07
Howie is unfamiliar with the principle "Ignorance of the law is no excuse..." I suspect most people who don't have a yen for smaller, less intrusive government are. The motto of big-government types can be succinctly given: "Whatever isn't prohibited is mandatory!"
Doesn't work, for me... :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-01-30, 10:55:42
As for us, the Brits only controlled "Mississippi" (at that time, both MS and Alabama were one state before Bammer broke away) for 16 years. The French ruled us for 81 years, and of course, the Spanish ruled us for 6 years.

You can call it born to be ruled...   :rolleyes:

Anyway that Fleur de Lys doesn't suits you well, American efforts when trying to speak French are always hilarious.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-01-30, 20:13:17

As for us, the Brits only controlled "Mississippi" (at that time, both MS and Alabama were one state before Bammer broke away) for 16 years. The French ruled us for 81 years, and of course, the Spanish ruled us for 6 years.

You can call it born to be ruled...   :rolleyes:

Anyway that Fleur de Lys doesn't suits you well, American efforts when trying to speak French are always hilarious.

Mardi Gras is just around the corner. It's more of less obligatory.  :wine: :cheers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mardi_Gras#United_States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mardi_Gras#United_States)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-01-30, 21:38:10
Ah bon... in that case, laissez les bons temps rouler  :wine:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-01-31, 03:05:13
A nice try Colonel to dance on the red indian massacres across your country. Oh and let'snot forget S. Vietnam or even the 2nd World War. I still have the documentary video of the American Armcy concentration Camp that did horrific crimes with those German soldier prisoners. And you know what/ The reaction here was one of dancing around it which was farcical as you lot always moan of there is no link or"proof." When this horror was given none of you had the principles or honesty to admit the visual report. I link it again and it is disgusting so maybe seeing you value having been to senior education to answer this.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbp61fOVFaE

(No different from Nazi camps or Soviet ones in Siberia)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-02-01, 17:06:10
So, whose massacres were the worserest? Who are the nominees to the 1st prize? Is there a poll?
(We do our massacres to ourselves, here. No need to dispute with anybody else...)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2016-02-01, 17:17:27
We all have our worst moments.

http://www.survivalinternational.org/news/9191 (http://www.survivalinternational.org/news/9191)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-02-02, 07:29:05
Yes we do and I reminded of that large disastrous one regarding the always boasting  greatest and principled country...... :irked:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2016-02-02, 13:12:59
Greatest and most principled? That would be US.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-02-02, 23:07:28
Jimbro, what do you know about Europe? Probably as much as I do about the US.

Who thinks what - the British :)

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Ffun.drno.de%2Fpics%2Fwho-thinks-what%2Fthe-british.jpg&hash=9c9120e05260b7b82e0ea727bad718a7" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://fun.drno.de/pics/who-thinks-what/the-british.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-02-04, 06:23:18
Neat very neat jimbro (!) Gee whiz.  :lol:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2016-02-05, 13:41:58

Jimbro, what do you know about Europe? Probably as much as I do about the US.

Who thinks what - the British :)

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Ffun.drno.de%2Fpics%2Fwho-thinks-what%2Fthe-british.jpg&hash=9c9120e05260b7b82e0ea727bad718a7" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://fun.drno.de/pics/who-thinks-what/the-british.jpg)

True about the US view. We've gotten our ideas from watching Downton Abbey.
The Europeans got it right!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-02-05, 20:09:36

Jimbro, what do you know about Europe? Probably as much as I do about the US.

Who thinks what - the British :)

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Ffun.drno.de%2Fpics%2Fwho-thinks-what%2Fthe-british.jpg&hash=9c9120e05260b7b82e0ea727bad718a7" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://fun.drno.de/pics/who-thinks-what/the-british.jpg)

In Liverpool, you had about 10 or so ppl laying about in the streets like that (especially after M. United whipped up on King Kenny's bunch).   :D 8)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-02-07, 05:47:59
So much, for "civilization," eh? :(
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-02-07, 11:19:39

So much, for "civilization," eh? :(

Well, at least there is no police shooting around. It looks quite peaceful, almost idyllic. :devil:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2016-02-07, 19:31:42
So much, for "civilization," eh?  :(

Civilization is vastly overrated.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.mentalfloss.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fstyles%2Farticle_640x430%2Fpublic%2Fgerman_trenches_aisne.jpeg&hash=392b7c92c6d3c9bdd11f485ade46052b" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://images.mentalfloss.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_640x430/public/german_trenches_aisne.jpeg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-02-13, 10:58:33
According the New York Times Op-Ed...
Quote
Brexit campaigners are excited by the possibilities of an independent future in the world. We believe that this vision is better not just for Britain, but also for our European allies.


The Master's voice is calling the doggy back home...

"Their" European "allies" also thinks that's better Britain the American Fifth Column to leave once for all. It should had happen way long ago.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-02-13, 22:29:05
I am all for Brexit and equally tired of the US pulling the strings.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-02-14, 03:56:51
Poor little Scotland! Always the pawn... (One wonders why that is?)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-02-14, 16:21:51
Considering it is big corporates that run your place Oakdale you lot have well used that word pawn.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-02-15, 18:02:02

I am all for Brexit and equally tired of the US pulling the strings.

Neither will happen, and you know it.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fa.fod4.com%2Fimages%2FGifGuide%2FDealWithIt%2Funclesamdeal.gif&hash=ef1858259ed247b177af89a4e0e181e0" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://a.fod4.com/images/GifGuide/DealWithIt/unclesamdeal.gif)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-02-17, 02:51:18
I put that comment down as a touch of satire as the string pulling is fully operational. At least here we can have a referendum and something you poor controlled freaks cannot have.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-02-17, 03:15:34

I put that comment down as a touch of satire as the string pulling is fully operational. At least here we can have a referendum and something you poor controlled freaks cannot have.

Don't be foolish Mr. Howie.

You know good and well that vested business interests will use any and all means of propaganda to keep you lot in the EU (much like the Better Together bunch rallied to keep Scotland in the UK). There is the case that we (the US) + the former empire (Commonwealth) could form a separate trading bloc as a favor to your lot, but it would be nowhere nearly as profitable as y'all being in the EU, nor would the bother in having us set up the Commonwealth Bloc AND maintain our current trade agreements with the EU be worth the effort.

As for our continued "soft" influences in the UK, they are there to stay. Our culture has been a part of your young ppl's culture since Reagan and Thatcher were in office. It is going nowhere; indeed, it is actually getting so strong that coffee has been pushing down tea sales in recent years, according to an article I read last week. (Though of interest to you, drinking a cuppa has been gaining steam over here as well.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-02-17, 09:14:43
And a teetotaler like Howie won't argue for Scotch over Bourbon, will he? :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-02-17, 23:22:47
In heavens an ex-colonist accusing commercial interests here of wanting to use their influence to stay in the EU! A built-ignorance is the stance over the pond because of the nationalist rant brained into you lot. Flags everywhere including a classroom only showing how elementary you are there. It is a wonder you don't have toilet paper with the flag on it in case you forget what it looks like The fact that there are commercial people who want to be out of the EU is ignored but then you are an American so we must make allowances.

The European union is a mess and even here in the northern part of the Kingdom trade with Europe is down (!). The Euro as a currency is in a mess as is much else. The number of years that Brussels has failed to get a cleared books runs into 2 figures year-wise. If a private company did that annually it would be shut. You know fine well (even though educated in dreamland) that if a US State voted that it wanted out all hell would break loose and wouldn't happen.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-02-18, 00:44:02
You know fine well (even though educated in dreamland) that if a US State voted that it wanted out all hell would break loose and wouldn't happen.
That question was settled by our (one, and only...) civil war: Without an amendment to our constitution, there is no procedure for secession.

The idea that your country couldn't provide sufficient bureaucracy without the help of the EU strikes me as typical of your lot. The level of bureaucracy you want seems to me to be a yearning to return to swaddling...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-02-18, 01:27:11

In heavens an ex-colonist accusing commercial interests here of wanting to use their influence to stay in the EU! A built-ignorance is the stance over the pond because of the nationalist rant brained into you lot. Flags everywhere including a classroom only showing how elementary you are there. It is a wonder you don't have toilet paper with the flag on it in case you forget what it looks like The fact that there are commercial people who want to be out of the EU is ignored but then you are an American so we must make allowances.

The European union is a mess and even here in the northern part of the Kingdom trade with Europe is down (!). The Euro as a currency is in a mess as is much else. The number of years that Brussels has failed to get a cleared books runs into 2 figures year-wise. If a private company did that annually it would be shut. You know fine well (even though educated in dreamland) that if a US State voted that it wanted out all hell would break loose and wouldn't happen.

:zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

None of this rambing cottoning on changes anything that I posted. Surely a man so involved in antagonizing the Catholics at any and every opportunity of the political process doesn't have his eyes wide shut to the inevitable.

I look forward to you posting your stirring rendition of "The Star-Spangled Banner"  on YouTube, my dear Scotttish peasant.  :spock: :devil: :devil: :devil:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-02-18, 23:16:45
So many empty houses, so many people without an house.
That's what's going on in Europe.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-02-21, 21:46:36
Antagonizing R$C's. Shows the faulty aspect of US education which your own government is concerned about. As for peasantry with 40 million poor in the great land of the free yak yak you should know all about peasantry. Not once have I said I wanted Romansm banned but considering you come from a country than does so much harm, warfare and interfering study a bit mor boy! Although i do not agree with the prociples of Rome I do not deny individuals their rights of worship. Just a pity your country cannot keep it's nose out of destroying countries you cannot get in charge of - and subdued by corporate controllers!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2016-02-23, 18:54:06

So many empty houses, so many people without an house.
That's what's going on in Europe.

Please amplify. Where, why? What's going on?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-02-23, 19:11:07
Please amplify. Where, why? What's going on?

It's no different in America. There are more houses than homeless people and all that.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-02-23, 21:38:36
and all that.

yeah... non important things.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-04-23, 18:34:17
Humvees falling from the sky in Hohenfels (Bavaria, Germany)

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-04-23, 18:54:25
Reminds me of the last Fast & Furious movie. :P
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-04-24, 11:32:06
There are more houses than homeless people and all that.
Sure, but are there more vacant houses than homeless people?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-04-24, 12:01:19
Sure, but are there more vacant houses than homeless people?
According to the CBS (Central Bureau of Statistics), the Netherlands has approximately 7,5 million homes. On 1 juli 2013, 408 thousand of those were vacant, or 5,5% of all homes (p. 13 of linked PDF). In 2013 the number of homeless people was estimated to be about 25,000, while now that number is estimated to have risen to 30,000. This is all fairly similar in Germany, the US, and all other affluent nations. The only difference is that in the Netherlands living spaces are a lot more expensive than in Germany, so the homes themselves tend to be smaller and are more likely to be apartments rather than free-standing houses.

On vacant homes: https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/achtergrond/2014/21/leegstaande-woningen
On homeless people: https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2016/09/aantal-daklozen-in-zes-jaar-met-driekwart-toegenomen
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-04-24, 12:56:38
Sure, but are there more vacant houses than homeless people?
According to the CBS (Central Bureau of Statistics), the Netherlands has approximately 7,5 million homes. On 1 juli 2013, 408 thousand of those were vacant, or 5,5% of all homes (p. 13 of linked PDF). In 2013 the number of homeless people was estimated to be about 25,000, while now that number is estimated to have risen to 30,000.
So, if I'm counting right, there are considerably more vacant homes than there are homeless people? This is what I call a problem solved. The only thing left to do is to administer the solution.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-04-24, 13:41:53
Well, that number is somewhat misleading. At least a third will be inhabited again within half a year up to about half within a year. More interesting is the long-lasting vacancy, meaning more than 1.5 years, that number being either 188 921 or 175 552 (excluding vacation homes).

20% of homes is from before 1940, but 35% of vacant homes is. Probably because they're just awful in matters like insulation and wiring. On the flipside, it might be that since many of these pre-1940 homes are in cities, it's possible that they are already being squatted in by the (semi-)homeless. The statistics on the homeless don't say whether they include squatters.

65,000 long-lasting vacant homes are privately owned, while 91,000 are rental homes. The unregistered squatting population would be primarily located within those rental homes.

In any case, it's obvious that within the EU, any homelessness and foodlessness is economic, political or by choice.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-04-24, 14:37:33
In any case, it's obvious that within the EU, any homelessness and foodlessness is economic, political or by choice.
Nope. The reason is ethics, better saying the lack of ethics.
Quote
24% of all the EU population (over 120 million people), are at risk of poverty or social exclusion - this includes 27% of all children in Europe, 20.5% of those over 65, and 9% of those with a job

Close to 9% of all Europeans live in severe material deprivation - they do not have the resources to own a washing machine, a car, a telephone, to heat their homes or face unexpected expenses

17% of Europeans live on less than 60% of their country's average household income

10% of Europeans live in households where no one has a job

There is a wide gap in performance between the welfare systems in different EU countries - the best reduced the risk of poverty by 60%, the least effective by less than 15% (EU average 35%)

12 million more women than men are living in poverty in the EU

Specific populations such as the Roma are especially challenged: two-thirds are unemployed, one in two children attends kindergarten and only 15% complete secondary school.

The above numbers are a simple average. In fact, pheripheric countries for example have much higher numbers.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-04-24, 14:40:29
Well, that number is somewhat misleading. At least a third will be inhabited again within half a year up to about half within a year. More interesting is the long-lasting vacancy, meaning more than 1.5 years, that number being either 188 921 or 175 552 (excluding vacation homes).
Naturally, by "vacant" I did not mean "empty until the family gets back from work and school".

Most interesting would be abandoned houses that are not yet decrepit. But nobody keeps statistics like that. Abandoned houses would be good enough.

The statistics on the homeless don't say whether they include squatters.
Nobody keeps statistics like this either. Nor should.

In my view, squatters have a home, so they are not homeless. Occupying abandoned houses should be legal. And statistics works better when definitions are kept sane.

In any case, it's obvious that within the EU, any homelessness and foodlessness is economic, political or by choice.
What is different about homelessness and foodlessness in the rest of the world?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-04-24, 15:50:56
Nope. The reason is ethics, better saying the lack of ethics.
You're always saying things like "nope" when there's no disagreement. :P

Quote
10% of Europeans live in households where no one has a job
Most jobs will soon be automated away out of existence. Things'll either get a lot better or a lot worse. I'm an optimist.  :yes:

Naturally, by "vacant" I did not mean "empty until the family gets back from work and school".
And that's not what vacant means... inhabited again within six months means by different inhabitants. Like when you move and your old house hasn't sold yet. Or when it sold and the new owners haven't moved in yet. Or it might be an unlucky house and not have new tenants within six months.

In my view, squatters have a home, so they are not homeless. Occupying abandoned houses should be legal. And statistics works better when definitions are kept sane.
It used to be legal to live in a house that had been vacant for more than 12 months. One of our ethical, compassionate Christian governments undid that.[1]
What is different about homelessness and foodlessness in the rest of the world?
Maybe nothing, but if so then what's development aid for?
They're always throwing words like ethics and compassion around, but to this day I have no idea what they think those words mean.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-04-24, 17:42:27
And that's not what vacant means... inhabited again within six months means by different inhabitants. Like when you move and your old house hasn't sold yet. Or when it sold and the new owners haven't moved in yet. Or it might be an unlucky house and not have new tenants within six months.
We've been using the wrong word all along. I always meant abandoned (and so did you, because you could not have been suggesting a connection between homeless people and houses that are empty merely for the time being). Summer houses and houses being sold don't quite qualify.

It used to be legal to live in a house that had been vacant for more than 12 months. One of our ethical, compassionate Christian governments undid that.
You mean Balkenende, the Christian Democrat? According to Wikipedia, the main force driving the squatting ban was VVD. This is not absolving Christian Democrats, but it shows that they were perhaps doing it more out of neglect than out of (com)passion.

What is different about homelessness and foodlessness in the rest of the world?
Maybe nothing, but if so then what's development aid for?
Development aid (under different names) is distributed also within EU, not only to the outside world. The richest countries like Sweden and Finland get it a lot, as they keep so many asylums for immigrants. I used to collect free bread labelled "EU aid" myself when I was a student in Helsinki.

Anyway, you said that "it's obvious that within the EU, any homelessness and foodlessness is economic, political or by choice," as if this were somehow specific to EU and that the nature of homelessness and foodlessness were different elsewhere. And now you imply that development aid is to deal specifically with the kind of homelessness and foodlessness found elsewhere in the world.

No. Development aid is to deal with any kind of homelessness and foodlessness wherever found. And the EU is giving development aid to the Third World due to the fact that the EU is comparatively wealthier than the Third World. It would be silly to expect development aid in the opposite direction. We are not giving development aid because there are some strange forms of homelessness and foodlessness out there, but just because there's homelessness and foodlessness.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-04-25, 10:09:09
We've been using the wrong word all along. I always meant abandoned (and so did you, because you could not have been suggesting a connection between homeless people and houses that are empty merely for the time being). Summer houses and houses being sold don't quite qualify.
An abandoned house is not a vacant house. It is no longer cared for by anyone, which will inevitably lead to it falling into disrepair. I could have a vacant second house for decades yet never abandon it. The reason owners are opposed to squatters in their vacant property is precisely because they haven't abandoned said property. Although back in the '60s there were property owners who let their property become decrepit even though they claimed they hadn't abandoned it. They're obviously full of it.

You mean Balkenende, the Christian Democrat? According to Wikipedia, the main force driving the squatting ban was VVD. This is not absolving Christian Democrats, but it shows that they were perhaps doing it more out of neglect than out of (com)passion.
Huh? I meant Van Agt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Agt) back in the late '70s or early '80s. I don't recall off the top of my head whether it was in his first coalition with the VVD or his later one with the PvdA. Wikipedia fails to mention it, but until then it was explicitly legal after 12 months of vacancy. The 2010 stuff is about criminalizing it, which is worse for squatters but it's more about punishment than legality.

Also, the Wikipedia article is complete and utter bullshit. The criminalization was proposed by the coalition government consisting of CDA (Christians), PvdA (Labor, i.e. socialists), and ChristenUnie (Christian socialists), not VVD (liberals). See e.g. http://www.nu.nl/algemeen/2073495/kabinet-werkt-aan-kraakverbod.html NB I'm not saying VVD was opposed to it -- they weren't -- but they were not the driving force. I've seldom seen such clearly pronounced Christian-socialist hypocritical blame-shifting.

Anyway, you said that "it's obvious that within the EU, any homelessness and foodlessness is economic, political or by choice," as if this were somehow specific to EU and that the nature of homelessness and foodlessness were different elsewhere. And now you imply that development aid is to deal specifically with the kind of homelessness and foodlessness found elsewhere in the world.
No, I imply that the EU is rich and has plenty of resources to spare for all kinds of things all by itself. The same applies to other affluent nations like the US, but it may not apply to countries Haiti or Bangladesh.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-04-25, 13:40:06
An abandoned house is not a vacant house. It is no longer cared for by anyone, which will inevitably lead to it falling into disrepair.
Over time, yes, but a house abandoned for a year may still be easily fixed.

I could have a vacant second house for decades yet never abandon it.
But how is it vacant if you keep returning to it to keep up the repairs? Gotcha :D

The reason owners are opposed to squatters in their vacant property is precisely because they haven't abandoned said property.
English is just stoopid. Maybe "idle property" is the term we are looking for? Because, you know, we are aiming at the same point, but pointlessly arguing over word choice.

Huh? I meant Van Agt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Agt) back in the late '70s or early '80s. I don't recall off the top of my head whether it was in his first coalition with the VVD or his later one with the PvdA. Wikipedia fails to mention it, but until then it was explicitly legal after 12 months of vacancy. The 2010 stuff is about criminalizing it, which is worse for squatters but it's more about punishment than legality.

Also, the Wikipedia article is complete and utter bullshit. The criminalization was proposed by the coalition government consisting of CDA (Christians), PvdA (Labor, i.e. socialists), and ChristenUnie (Christian socialists), not VVD (liberals). See e.g. http://www.nu.nl/algemeen/2073495/kabinet-werkt-aan-kraakverbod.html NB I'm not saying VVD was opposed to it -- they weren't -- but they were not the driving force. I've seldom seen such clearly pronounced Christian-socialist hypocritical blame-shifting.
Okay. I believe you. The closest reference in Wikipedia I eventually found says this:

Quote from: Dutch squatting ban, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_squatting_ban
In June 2006, ministers Sybilla Dekker and Piet Hein Donner from the Dutch government proposed a plan to criminalise squatting.
Sybilla Dekker is VVD. Piet Hein Donner is CDA.

No, I imply that the EU is rich and has plenty of resources to spare for all kinds of things all by itself. The same applies to other affluent nations like the US, but it may not apply to countries Haiti or Bangladesh.
Okay. Let's say that this is what you meant by "..."it's obvious that within the EU, any homelessness and foodlessness is economic, political or by choice." What adjectives would you use to describe homelessness and foodlessness in Haiti or Bangladesh?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-04-25, 14:06:01
Sybilla Dekker is VVD. Piet Hein Donner is CDA.
Hm, that proposal is not part of my active recollection. I don't know how similar that proposal was to the one that was eventually ratified by both houses. I suppose it's conceivable that the government proposal (put forward by a PvdA minister) that eventually went through the houses has roots that go back further. But the complete and utter bullshit I was referring to was this passage from that same article:

Quote
Several parties, notably the VVD party, were vocal critics of squatting. Backed by the leader of the PVV, Geert Wilders they moved to outlaw squatting.[7] The new squatting ban was passed by the House of Representatives on 15 October 2009 and the Senate on 1 June 2010, and became law on 1 October 2010. The penalty is one year's imprisonment, or more if violence is involved.[8] The mayor of Amsterdam, Eberhard van der Laan, and police commissioner Leen Schaap stated their intention to clear roughly 200 of 300 squats in Amsterdam, and to treat squatting as a criminal offence.[6][9][10]

Note how it says "notably the VVD" and that it insinuates a coalition involving the VVD was responsible. But I just noticed that what I said was already pointed out on the talk page:

Quote
A government which took power on 14 October 2010 could hardly have passed a squatting ban which was passed into law on 1 October 2010 and had been agreed upon by both the Dutch House of Representatives on 15 October 2009 as well as the Dutch Senate on 1 June 2010. This article seems to have been created by squatters or proponents of squatting and thus has a severe NPOV issue. SpeakFree (talk) 12:04, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps the article read slightly different back then, because to me it reads like it was created by leftists. A Dutch person might say that's practically the same thing as squatting proponents anyway, but my point is that a PvdA minister (or his staff) wrote and submitted the proposal. The VVD merely voted in favor. Surely writing and submitting a proposal is more "notable" than voting in favor of it? Or did the VVD somehow force him to do it? Now that would be notable. :P

Okay. Let's say that this is what you meant by "..."it's obvious that within the EU, any homelessness and foodlessness is economic, political or by choice." What adjectives would you use to describe homelessness and foodlessness in Haiti or Bangladesh?
Presumably not a simple matter of internal politics?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-04-25, 16:46:48
In a functioning welfare state, which I assume includes at least the Netherlands, poor economy alone shouldn't be cause for homelessness.  If necessary the destitute person or family will get moderate, but sufficient support for paying the rent and other basic costs. Homelessness would be a result of alcoholism, drug abuse, mental problems. They too could get lodging, the problem is that those places tend to be full of alcoholics, drug abusers and people with mental problems.

These days we get more homelessness due to transnational migration. Whether the immigrants have the right to immigrate (i.e. EU citizens, or with residency) or not, the state isn't obliged to provide shelter.

A few countries are now experience a shortage of homes. That is definitely the case with Sweden, definitely Norway. Sweden had a deep financial crisis around 1990, a milder one around 2008. With a partial exception for these periods the Stockholm region has always been stressed, more people want to live there than there is housing, but other parts of the country has had the opposite problem, more housing than people, often with falling population, particularly rural counties, and the relatively deprived counties in the north and bordering Norway. The areas near Norway tried to attract Norwegian pensioners, others chose a Detroit-like solution, demolishing or exporting empty buildings.

Basically if you couldn't get a place to live in Stockholm or other attractive cities, you found one in a neighbouring county. Now there is a perfect storm, with a modest domestic population increase, prolonged immigration from within and outside the EU, a booming economy, particularly the Stockholm region, and lately a great upsurge of asylum seekers. Now not only Stockholm, but almost the whole country is at danger of running out of housing, as this graph shows:

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.svtstatic.se%2Fcms-image%2Fcachable_image%2F1455889844%2Fsvts%2Farticle6625690.svt%2Falternates%2Fextralarge%2Fgrafikkarta-jpg&hash=625e5217e4233ed9b54a4d30e592b5ea" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.svtstatic.se/cms-image/cachable_image/1455889844/svts/article6625690.svt/alternates/extralarge/grafikkarta-jpg)

For those that don't read Swedish, kommun = county/municipality, there is a total of 290 in Sweden. Red ("Underskott") = shortage of housing; yellow ("I balans") = in balance; green ("Överskott") = surplus. Five years ago, in 2011, 126 municipalities had housing shortages, less than half the total, mostly in or around major cities. Now 250 out of 290 municipalities face shortages.

The obvious solution is to build more housing, which is going to happen, but building housing fast is not among Sweden's strengths. First you need to produce overall plans, then detailed plans, then everyone can have their say, then final plans, then somebody unhappy with those plans, and there will always be at least one, can complain to a special court, and so on. It takes about a year to construct a building, it can take a decade to get to that point. Eventually there will be sufficient housing, but nobody believes it will take less than a decade to get there (unless there were a serious crisis and emigration sky-rocketed, but even a 1990-style crash would not be sufficient for that).

Thus Sweden might see homelessness for a very unusual reason: a lack of homes. It's unlikely though, if fewer units are built, more will live in each unit.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-04-25, 20:53:40
What a stupidity.
There's absolutely no relationship between the number of houses and homeless people.

Homeless people are a direct result of no moral economic system, nothing else.
You train and brainwash people for urban life, to be part of a lawless capitalist system in order to make banks to win money and then get surprised that ten or more percent of the population has no place to live.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-04-26, 08:00:14
What a stupidity.
There's absolutely no relationship between the number of houses and homeless people.

Homeless people are a direct result of no moral economic system, nothing else.
Actually, the relationship between the number of houses and homeless people is that it makes the morality of the socioeconomic system measurable. For whatever reasons, there are homeless people. For whatever other reasons, there are also idle houses. A moral socioeconomic system would be able to lead one to the other to solve the problem of homelessness. A morally indifferent socioeconomic system wouldn't even see a problem.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-04-27, 01:13:58
Actually, the relationship between the number of houses and homeless people is that it makes the morality of the socioeconomic system measurable.
Is the suicide rate an equally valid measure? :)
How about the abortion rate?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-04-27, 03:52:37
Actually, the relationship between the number of houses and homeless people is that it makes the morality of the socioeconomic system measurable.
Is the suicide rate an equally valid measure? :)
How about the abortion rate?
Did you notice how you reduced my point? You employ a good old demagogical trick. My respect when you identify it.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-04-27, 12:37:25
There may be a positive correlation between suicide rates and happiness. The happier people are, the more people commit suicide. The methodological issues aside, speculation goes that failure to achieve happiness can be more fatal in high-happiness environments, or it may have other mechanisms all together.

Suicide and happiness (http://voxeu.org/article/suicide-and-happiness)

Quote
Concluding remarks

The lack of any clear relation between suicide and happiness remains a disturbing and unresolved puzzle. Perhaps it is simply that suicide is hard to explain. But perhaps we should also be cautious giving too much weight to self-reports of life satisfaction.

Incidentally, I would agree that the homes-homeless relationship isn't the best measure of the morality of the socioeconomic system. But it is an indication of society's ability to provide.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKWC7uy_RB8
Quote
Pipa på hustaket ho e på raus,
en stein ligg i grase og slæng
Torvhaille sprengt sæ, jernan e laus
Tel års så vil torvtaket hæng

Det sku bo folk i husan, husan e som folk
Folk træng hus og hus træng folk i all si tid

Et vindu på sørvæggen slepte inn sola
nu e det åpent førr regn
Når vøta kjæm inn vil det snart komme floa
av råte og mått ifra næraste eng

Det sku bo folk i husan, husan e som folk
Folk træng hus og hus træng folk i all si tid.

Døra mot nord e skjeiv i karmen
førr sylla puin bislaget tærtes bort.
Ingen går inn førr å komme i varmen
I dørlause hus man kjølne fort.

Det sku bo folk i husan, husan e som folk
Folk træng hus og hus træng folk i all si tid.

Grunnmurn e sprukken, hell ikkje stangen
Tela har hevve han opp og ned
Et stormkast blir tel begravelsessangen
Når heile huset går bort - i fred

Det sku bo folk i husan, husan e som folk
Folk træng hus og hus treng folk i all si tid.
(good luck translating Northern Norwegian dialect...)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-04-27, 12:52:40
Incidentally, I would agree that the homes-homeless relationship isn't the best measure of the morality of the socioeconomic system. But it is an indication of society's ability to provide.
This would make sense if society's ability (and willingness) to provide didn't go under morality. For me it goes. Hospitality is a major moral function.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-04-27, 15:29:19
It is one thing to provide, not the only thing. And providing is just one of our societal duties. Hospitality is an important value in virtually all human societies, but this isn't hospitality, but shelter. Shelter is pretty crucial in Northern Europe, mind you. No shelter, no Northern Europeans.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-04-28, 23:32:35
Shelter is pretty crucial in Northern Europe, mind you. No shelter, no Northern Europeans
I doubt you have the full comprehension of your words and yet you are so much true.
I'll resume it for you, no follow the rules and you're death. Northern "civilization" hospitality.
Yep, you can blame the climate for your savagery.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-04-29, 07:49:47
Can you blame your savagery on your climate? I think not.

What will you blame the death of your civilization on...? (You won't see it, so you don't have to answer. But you helped bring it about, with all your Marxist and multi-culti BS, don't you think? :)
Nah! You don't. You were trained not to...
Yet you pretend to be a Catholic.

I forget which thread jax posted this... (It was a Tedx video, which I normally ignore.) But, as always, it was pertinent. (I'll look for the link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAGgKE82034&feature=youtu.be), later... I've been drinking Too much.)

...perhaps, not too much! :) But of course I have. I highly recommend this talk. Like, really!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-04-29, 10:59:13
I'll resume it for you, no follow the rules and you're death. Northern "civilization" hospitality.
Yep, you can blame the climate for your savagery.

That's pretty much nature's hospitality rules. Breaking them can be fatal. But now winter is leaving, time for roads to clear.

https://youtu.be/FPxAvHdrK6U

Actually, while civilisation came very late to Northern Europe, South-Eastern Europe has had about three millennia of city living while Northern Europe has only had about one millennium, shelter has always been plentiful. Which is a good part of reason why European migrants advanced north as the ice age ice sheet was retreating.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-04-29, 13:25:33
time for roads to clear.
Hm, I guess at some point they turn around and widen the road a bit or something?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-04-29, 14:04:47
Trollstigen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trollstigen) was the major road some 50 years back. Then it was replaced with a more modern, wider, and not the least flatter road. Then this one was turned into a tourist/cycling road. That includes tourist buses (this is after all the scenic route), something the road is spectacularly unsuited for (as you can hear the motorcyclist cursing in the middle of this video):

https://youtu.be/xTlsgKVilYI


Since it is now just a tourist road they don't bother to try to keep it open during the winter, and rather clear the road of snow come spring.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-04-29, 23:14:41
What will you blame the death of your civilization on...? (You won't see it, so you don't have to answer. But you helped bring it about, with all your Marxist and multi-culti BS, don't you think?  :)
Nah! You don't. You were trained not to...
Yet you pretend to be a Catholic.
I don't know if I have the patience to wait for you to stop babbling...
Actually, while civilisation came very late to Northern Europe,
Has it arrived already? no one noticed it.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-04-30, 06:29:57
Actually, while civilisation came very late to Northern Europe, South-Eastern Europe has had about three millennia of city living while Northern Europe has only had about one millennium, shelter has always been plentiful. Which is a good part of reason why European migrants advanced north as the ice age ice sheet was retreating.
Funny thing how being a migrant is a matter of perspective. In terms of historical anthropology, scientists say that Uralic peoples migrated from Urals to where they are now. In terms of folkloristics, the peoples' self-perception says they always were where they are now.

My theory is this: Ice sheet retreats slowly, imperceptibly over generations. When the people who are used to living next to the ice sheet move along as the ice sheet retreats, then from their own point of view they always lived next to the ice sheet and never really moved. And their perception is true because they never invaded anybody else's territory.


Vikings were invaders from the point of view of those who got raided, but wherever Vikings settled, they swiftly assimilated to the local population, so it was actually in their character to be settled, not migrant. They migrated for a while for some other reasons than due to the characteristic of being migratory.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-04-30, 10:31:50
It's a fair point that early farmers seeking out new land to till, perhaps in the neighbouring valley, might not have looked upon themselves as migrants, though they were in our view.

But agriculture came late to Europe, seven millennia ago, depending how you count, in today's Turkey, and it spread slowly, primarily along rivers. An estimate is 1 km/year. Most of the time there have been Europeans (200+ millennia with Neandertals, 40+ millennia with recent African migrants) they were hunter-gatherers. Hunter-gatherers have to be nomads not to deplete local resources, besides they have no farms or other chains to weigh them down.

The early hunter-gatherers reaching Scandinavia at the edge of the ice sheet certainly were sea faring, Scandinavia at the time would be something similar to today's Greenland. Like hunter-gatherers everywhere else on the planet they were supplanted by farmers wherever there were arable land or slash-and-burn forests and fields.

"Always" in folkloric sense, much like "since time immemorial", means before it was there before I was born, or before I arrived. Europeans too have always migrated. Having a farm slowed this process, never halted it. Losing the farm, whether to marauding tribes or to marauding banks, set it back in motion.

Farming became predominant. The Indo-European languages, which most Europeans speak, were propagated by farmers. The minority languages, before or after, came predominantly with farming as well.

The Vikings were fishermen-farmers who dabbled in international finance.  They weren't nomadic. A few that specialised in hostile takeovers became expatriates and executives, but most returned to their farm after hopefully getting a nice severance package.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-04-30, 11:04:47
Hunter-gatherers have to be nomads not to deplete local resources, besides they have no farms or other chains to weigh them down.
Nomads is not such a simple concept. There's a difference if the hunter-gatherers go in circles/cycles known to themselves or if they keep pushing in any random direction regardless of obstacles like Gypsies or like Mongols under Genghis Khan. Even the most nomadic Mongols actually know pretty well where their own lands end and other peoples' lands begin.

The early hunter-gatherers reaching Scandinavia at the edge of the ice sheet certainly were sea faring, Scandinavia at the time would be something similar to today's Greenland. Like hunter-gatherers everywhere else on the planet they were supplanted by farmers wherever there were arable land or slash-and-burn forests and fields.
The Saami people and culture still persist in Scandinavia.

Maybe knowing what a row-boat is makes one sea-faring. It certainly does in the Pacific.

"Always" in folkloric sense, much like "since time immemorial", means before it was there before I was born, or before I arrived.
No, it doesn't. Folklore is not someone's individual memory. It's the people's collective memory.

Europeans too have always migrated. Having a farm slowed this process, never halted it. Losing the farm, whether to marauding tribes or to marauding banks, set it back in motion.
I'm detecting a bone-headed willingness to not distinguish between settled people and migrating people. People forced to migrate (like under Stalin's deportations) should be considered different from migratory people (like Gypsies), just like marauding tribes are different from tribes being marauded, n'est-ce pas? They certainly have different folklores to tell the tale accordingly.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-04-30, 11:54:13
Yes, there is absolutely a distinction between hunter-gatherers, pastoral herders (which included the Mongols), and various "urban nomads". Leaving the last group aside, the nomadic way of life is fast going extinct, there are very few hunter-gatherers and herders left.

The Sami were originally hunter-gatherers, but later became herders and fishermen, and farmers. There are a few families that quite profitably herd reindeer, but most Sami are urban or otherwise non-nomadic, and the remaining reindeer herders have permanent housing as well and are at most semi-nomadic.

I agree there is a distinction between migrants who move once, or maybe up to a dozen times or so, and otherwise are sedentary, and herders who mostly travel the same routes yearly. But in either case the move isn't random. In the past as in the present, we move away from danger and problems towards places we believe have the best prospects, whether that move is out of fear, frustration, hope, or adventure.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-04-30, 13:43:18
the nomadic way of life is fast going extinct, there are very few hunter-gatherers and herders left.
There's no place for free men anymore.
People will gain awareness and maybe it will change.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-05-04, 08:59:43
The new EU plan to solve the migrant crisis
http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2016/05/04/les-quatre-volets-du-plan-de-la-commission-europeenne-contre-la-crise-migratoire_4913176_3214.html

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-05-04, 22:39:18
Quote
La Turquie devra, de son côté, répondre à 72 critères précis.
:faint:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-09, 12:59:39
Mercury starts its journey across the Sun (http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-36228327). I guess I already missed this sky-event.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-05-09, 14:00:06
We need the TTIP for competitive purposes, argues this opinion piece.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/why-germans-need-to-get-on-board-with-ttip-free-trade-pact-a-1091075.html#ref=rss
Quote
Perhaps the Europeans should think back to the history of their own single market. It became a huge success, but started as the European Coal and Steel Community. The planned Atlantic deal could be launched first for important industrial and service branches and later expanded to other economic sectors. Indeed, a "TTIP Light" would be better than no agreement at all.

Critics of the agreement are right on many points, but they don't have an answer to one question: Which role should Europe play in the future of the global economy? Exiting globalization is not an option.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-05-09, 17:29:48
Quote
It is to the anti-TTIP movement's credit that it has unveiled the trade negotiations' democratic deficit and turned them into the subject of political debate.
Hear, hear!!!

Quote
So wouldn't the easiest solution be to listen to the "stop TTIP" slogans that are being carried around German streets by tens of thousands of environmental and health activists?
That would be the simplest option, but it wouldn't be the right one.
So once again a Spiegel propagandist tries to teach the unwashed masses what's right or wrong.

Quote
Critics of the agreement are right on many points, but they don't have an answer to one question: Which role should Europe play in the future of the global economy? Exiting globalization is not an option.
So, so - critics of the agreement are right on many points?
Nobody was asking for exiting globalization, shithead.
Also no sane German wants national or trans-Atlantic corporations to dictate our domestic and foreign policies. Therefore we have our own politicians no matter how dumb or corrupt they are.

"Der Spiegel" the trans-Atlantic cornet, made much propaganda for TTIP in the past.
People opposing TTIP were dismissed as conspiracy theorists. The number of those 'conspiracy theorists' has increased permanently in Germany (actually over 70% are against TTIP). Some leaked documents prove the misgiving of those 'conspiracy theorists' towards TTIP. Now, those who oppose TTIP aren't called 'conspiracy theorists' anymore by "The Spiegel". Confronted with the leaked documents, The Spiegel has now to soften its voice.
If "The Spiegel" would have a breeze of decency then they would have to ask in the first place why the TTIP contract is top secret.
You don't keep something top secret if it is beneficial to the general public. Not even parliamentarian have free access to the documents!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-05-10, 23:05:08
Which role should Europe play in the future of the global economy? Exiting globalization is not an option.
Nobody was asking for exiting globalization, shithead.
Fuhrer's freudian dialogues.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-05-13, 12:00:30
Quote
La Turquie devra, de son côté, répondre à 72 critères précis.
:faint:
Our ally, the sultan from Ankara is waging war against his own people. He is bombing now cities of his own  state.


"Is Turkish Army Using White Phosphorus Munitions (Bombs) in Kurdish Town Nusaybin?"
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-05-13, 20:07:04
There is a lot going on in Turkey which is very far from democratic or principled. It was bad enough the mass massacre of  Kurs early in the 20th century but the place is still much the damn same. When a government takes over a television company because it does not support the government and does the same with a newspaper is says something. Now it has git one h of a heck worse because  it has now been discovered that hundreds of journalists from all over the world - France, Britain, America, Japan Russia and Europe have been listed as not wanted. Some had previous been badly treated, injured or even killed.

That is a terrible indictment on democracy which is hardly existing in the nightmare Turkey is for any decency.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-05-13, 22:13:32
against his own people.
Nope, against Kurdish. Poor Kurdish, everyone wants to exterminate them... and no one speaks in their defense. Sorry, no one acts in their defense.
Yet, they still exist.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-05-14, 08:15:59
against his own people.
Nope, against Kurdish.
They have the Turkish citizenship, were born there and the land they live on since generations is Turkish state territory.

Poor Kurdish, everyone wants to exterminate them... and no one speaks in their defense. Sorry, no one acts in their defense.
It happened in the past with the Armenians as well.
At that time as today, Turkey was considered a strategic partner for Europe. Today it is also a strategic (NATO) partner for the USA.
So who cares about human lives (this time the Kurds) if there are upper interests at stake...

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-05-14, 23:12:06
Trouble with the Turkey situation is that it is a permanent thing with the Turks making things difficult for the Kurds. What was it in the early 1900's a million exterminated?  They are not happy in Turkey and the Turkish semi-dictatorship has little time for them. Recently nearly a hundred civilians were burned to death in a pogrom by the Turk army, water and electricity cut off and persecution of civilians. Yet the Turks get away with it.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-05-15, 03:32:36
Maybe "Great" Britain should go back and do it right, for once...

(Mind you, I think they did it right, once: They tried to subjugate their American colonies... How'd that work out? :) The world's most powerful military -and navy- failed; because of silly political squabbles... Which they still have! Only, now, they have them because of their "wide" democracy... :) )

Be grateful, Howie, that your country/countries have little to no influence in the world! (Indeed, the only thing other people care about is Brexit... How quaint! :) )
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-15, 06:34:45
The Eurovision song contest ended up making a political statement against Russia. The fact that this occurred by means of popular voting may mean something, even though I doubt it will have any effect on the political arena.

The day before I saw consistently in Finnish news how Russia was asserted to be the "overwhelming" favourite (this is called Finlandisation), but eventually Ukraine became the winner. Ukraine's song is in Crimean Tatar language and refers to certain historical events that annoy Russians, because Russians were the perpetrators.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-05-15, 08:44:54
The Eurovision song contest ended up making a political statement against Russia.
And against Germany which by 'popular voting' landed on last place. :)

BTW, I don't watch that crap. I don't even know someone among my friends who does.
It's trash at its worst. Our American friends can convice themself by watching at YouTube. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-05-15, 09:43:12
Thankfully I didn't even know it was going on.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-05-15, 10:17:01
So... I see Australia is also part of the European song contest?
Bearded transvestites conquers the world...  :faint:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-05-15, 12:56:51
Maybe Australia can join the EU to replace the UK?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-05-15, 17:22:44
Stockholm is an East European capital,  and all the major East European countries won, Ukraine, Australia and Russia. Me, I happened to leave the Stockholm area for Oslo before the final, reentering Sweden just when it finished. ESC may be a paragon of style, poise and restraint,  but I can't see how anyone can watch more than a few minutes at a time,  never mind the whole program. The final alone is nearly four hours.

Yes,  most everything is on YouTube,  including guides, and watching people watching people watching it. Here people from China,  the next likely East European country to join, have their say. Good enough sample of the genre.

https://youtu.be/koQ5JX4xQsk

Or simply watch this,  from yesterday:

https://youtu.be/aMgW54HBOS0

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-05-15, 18:57:44
I prefer the classics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FsVeMz1F5c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=447LKTYDv4Y

(Actually I think they won with the English, worse version.)

And of course there's the modern classic by Lordi, although I've always thought the band peaked with their '04 album The Monsterican Dream.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAh9NRGNhUU

Then there's this year's winner, said to be an important but not necessarily a good song. In any case it's much better than Russia's poppy trash.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iExW72v0BSw

Or simply watch this,  from yesterday:
Beats most of the entries. :right:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-05-15, 19:12:13
Used to watch bits of it but gave up a while ago. It is more about flashing lights, dancing, trying to appear different and is mainly a load of rubbish.

One outstanding and utterly ridiculous basic thing since the early days raises a question of what the H Israel is doing un it. When I went to bed last night it was still in the Middle east.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-05-15, 21:43:04
The Eurovision song contest ended up making a political statement against Russia. The fact that this occurred by means of popular voting may mean something, even though I doubt it will have any effect on the political arena.
Your statement about popular voting against Russia is misleading to say the least.
If it were only the popular voting, Russia would have won the ESC. That's exactly the opposite of your interpretation. :)
Not popular voting but the jury of the respective countries made a political statement against Russia.
source (http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/musik/eurovision-song-contest-so-haetten-die-zuschauer-entschieden-a-1092488.html)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-05-16, 17:20:17
Neither is a "popular vote". One is by SMS/app (max. 20 votes per phone number), one is by "professional" jury, the results were merged earlier and now they are presented separately, for treble the excitement.

The bitching afterwards is the fun part of ESC. You don't have to actually watch the entries to discuss voting systems and voting results, which is much more interesting than the competition. As Eurovision themselves headlined, Australia won the jury vote, Russia won the televote, and Ukraine won the combined vote.


Eurovision 2016 Results: Voting & Points (http://eurovisionworld.com/?eurovision=2016)

Sweden's song is supposedly most downloaded, which you would think is a more honest assessment of popularity. Australia's is according to some self-elected judges the "best" song, which would be hard to determine without actually having to watch the songs, and it depends where these judges of quality are geographically and culturally.

Televoting is by far easiest to fix, probably not by nations, but it could be tempting for record companies. If you were to want to fix the result, it would make sense to prefer smaller countries (fewer votes total, meaning fewer votes to add). You would have to be rather subtle about it, an excessive number of televotes would likely trigger some circuit-breaker (and cost a lot of money).

In principle it could be cheaper to bribe the juries, but that is, to put it mildly, a higher risk strategy. Clearly the juries are biased, otherwise there would be no talk about voting blocks. It would be interesting to have the data mined to see if anything organised is going on for or against a country or a song. There is a much simpler explanation: The diaspora.


If we take the top 10 by final position (and difference relative to the outcome of a pure jury vote)[and to televote, for completeness]:


Neither jury nor televote can vote for the country they live in, but emigrant televoters can vote for their country of origin. The most extreme case is Poland.

This is the list of countries that gave Poland, Russia, and Ukraine 12 or 10 points (jury votes in parenthesis):

Poland got 12 telepoints in the following countries: Austria (0), Belgium (0)
Poland got 10 in: Germany (0), Iceland (0), Ireland (0), Netherlands (0), Norway (1), Sweden (0), UK (0)

Russia got 12 telepoints in the following countries: Armenia (2), Azerbaijan (12), Belarus (12), Bulgaria (6), Estonia (0), Germany (0), Latvia (7), Moldova (7), Serbia (1), Ukraine (0)
Russia got 10 in: Cyprus (12), Czechia (0), Greece (12), Hungary (0), Israel (0), Malta (7), Montenegro (8 ), San Marino (7), Slovenia (0)

Ukraine got 12 telepoints in the following countries: Czechia (0), Finland (0), Hungary (0), Italy (10), Poland (12), San Marino (12)
Ukraine got 10 in: Armenia (0), Austria (0), Azerbaijan (10), Belarus (7), Bulgaria (0), Croatia (0), France (0), Georgia (12), Latvia (12), Lithuania (8 ), Moldova (12), Russia (0)

Countries with a large Polish, Russian, Ukrainian diaspora are the ones that tend to give a high televote to Poland, Russia, Ukraine.

It's not a perfect match, and countries like Sweden, with a minuscule diaspora, rack up a high televote as well. And while a country like Czechia hasn't exported quite as many of its inhabitants as Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Romania (disqualified for not having paid the bill), a significant number works outside the Czech border, and they got next to no televotes. 

Comparing with (jury votes) clearly the Russian and Ukrainian entries have fan countries, with high televote and jury score.

There is very little to indicate a political campaign to exclude Russia and promote Ukraine. In general Russia and Ukraine tend to group, those who vote for Ukraine also vote for Russia and vice versa, but there are countries where the support of one but not the other is very clear, and in those cases it is probably political rather than cultural or demographic. This goes particularly for Georgia and Poland. Though a country like Sweden, also strongly on Ukraine's side politically, gave more votes to Russia than Ukraine. Perhaps they liked the song. Iceland gave nothing to Ukraine and the fourth best score to Russia.


This is all based on ranking. To get more useful and reliable results the actual scores, and not the relative rankings, should be compared, preferably with year series. I'm not going to do that.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-16, 18:25:01
Your statement about popular voting against Russia is misleading to say the least.
If it were only the popular voting, Russia would have won the ESC. That's exactly the opposite of your interpretation. :)
I picked up the interpretation from the news. I didn't watch the show myself. But you are right that I must have messed something up when I was listening to the news. In the other reports I listened to, they put it the way you do.

It would be interesting to see how Russian TV takes it.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-05-17, 03:24:37
I have essentially given up on the whole thing and as I said it is all about dancing about, wearing costumes, trying to look more or less daft and so on. The music plays second fiddle and shows how poor general singing is these days. I have had a better time in Edinburgh on a dashed wet day than this lot of cobblers and nonsense. A waste of time and money.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-05-17, 13:44:33
This article could be useful for the uninformed http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/why-global-migration-statistics-do-not-add-up-a-1090736.html

It's a bit sensationalist in its setup, but according to the article itself that's merely because of the UN and its unlikely allies, right-wing populists:

Quote
It's a vicious circle. The UN needs money and is constantly sounding the alarm. But its dramatizations create more fear than a willingness to help in the individual countries and the public. They also lead the paradoxical situation that actors on the left and right sides of the political spectrum use the same blustering rhetoric to talk about migration. Aid organizations and the left are fueling the fire because they want to inspire pity. Right-wing populists are sounding the same tune because they want to generate fear. It's just the truth that is hard to sell.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-05-19, 22:42:34
Aid organizations and the left are fueling the fire because they want to inspire pity. Right-wing populists are sounding the same tune because they want to generate fear.
And who is the idiot, neither from leftists wanting pity, or rightist wanting fear, that says so? a middle center wanting indifference?
Or is it Der Spiegel an humanitarian organization? What is the truth?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-05-19, 23:39:53
What is the truth?
The truth will set you free!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-20, 01:45:44
Bearded transvestites conquers the world..
They did? At least that's funny :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-05-21, 01:02:21
Yes colonel it does so you keep hope alive boy.  :happy:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-05-21, 13:08:03
Our habits are fairly similar to the French as described in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-VWbV6TJxU
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-05-22, 07:36:24
While you can find Swedish kissers, they are heavy into hugging.

Why I can't embrace Sweden's obsession with hugging (http://www.thelocal.se/20140325/i-cant-embrace-swedes-obsession-with-the-hug)

It's a fairly new, on the other hand "hug" is supposedly a word of Norse origin (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=hug). Then again "hugge" today means to chop, as with an axe, in modern Scandinavian. 

Treehugger (trehugger) would thus mean somebody chopping down a tree. (The actual word for lumberjack is "thimber hugger" though.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-05-22, 12:27:54
Beats most of the entries.  :right:

There is a precedent for topping over-the-top. You may remember Tubular Bells, the song that launched Richard Branson's global multi-billion Virgin empire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSRJvq4Wd48

I liked this parody (in Swedish, but you'll get the drift):

https://youtu.be/5ZBGP0XuznA
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2016-05-29, 16:53:31
Why, there's even a version from Edinburgh (perk up Mr. Howie).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7U1fvpuWWU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7U1fvpuWWU)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-05-30, 04:06:39
And damn bagpipes as well........
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-05-31, 08:22:43
Today I read my first Trump inspired scifi.https://ploum.net/une-derniere-biere-avant-la-fin-du-monde/

Toss it in a translation service of your choice if you're interested. ;)

Edit: translation here (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fploum.net%2Fune-derniere-biere-avant-la-fin-du-monde%2F&edit-text=).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-31, 09:43:39
Isn't it redundant to write a scifi of Trump? I mean he seems to have come from science fiction in the first place :left:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-05-31, 13:57:57
It takes place in a Walloon bar, so maybe, maybe not. :P

Quote
- Malou, you find normal that declares war on the United States? We become allied with Islamic countries?
- Islamic, it must not exaggerate, moderates the boss. We are not allied with the Caliphate and Daesh nonetheless.
- Yes, but Pakistan, Chechnya, Iran and even Russia and North Korea. We went with the terrorists or something?
- Should you understand that the struggle for survival of the planet there! Trump express burn gas fields to provoke us, replica man whose nostrils populated oily black hair quivering with anger. Experts agree: global warming can not be stopped.
- Ben precisely, if it can be stopped, why go kill? Malou huh?
- To not do worse, here! The Tsunami of Knokke, you think it was not enough?

It also touches on Belgium itself:
Quote
- By the way, is that they are still negotiating a government or is it that they are all from Switzerland as the French Parliament? meets his sidekick.
- No idea. But I think it does matter much ...

Malou seems to reflect a moment.

- But if there is no government, which voted the fact that we declared war on the United States? Because it's fine to discuss the decision is made, right?

The man nods.
(It's good enough that I won't bother correcting it.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-06-02, 10:28:01
More on the universal basic income: https://medium.com/basic-income/deep-learning-is-going-to-teach-us-all-the-lesson-of-our-lives-jobs-are-for-machines-7c6442e37a49#.xr29b5btr
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-02, 22:18:46
Come on Frenzie, wasn't Alvin Toffler's The Third Wave mistake enough to stop with dreams that "work are for computers and life for human beings"?
Computers are to enslave human beings, period.

I see...many of you work for the computer/software industry.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-06-03, 12:05:41
The only thing I directly imply without further commentary is that I find it interesting. But enslavement to whom? Or perhaps better, how is it worse than the currently existing form of wage slavery?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-03, 23:26:18
But enslavement to whom
To the matrix. I've posted something about it I don't remember where.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-06-08, 01:48:43
I found it here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxS6eKEOdLQ)... Perfectly insipid (...and quite probably lip-synced) performance. Obviously, European musicians do much better than this!
(Is this some version of "Idol" --thank you, GB! Not!-- for the continent? :( )
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-06-08, 09:09:41
Yep, quality TV like other culture  you've generally gotten from Europe. American Idol and America's Got Talent are British (and have made their owners quite well off), reality TV we've covered before (Survivor is based on a Swedish-British format, Big Brother and many of the out there formats are Dutch...; Paradise Hotel, Duck Dynasty, Honey Boo Boo are true American though).

While ESC is much older, 60 years, until recently there hasn't been much effort into internationalising/monetising it. There has been no Americavision Song Contest, and while there has been talk about an Asian Song Contest, for the moment the direction is to extend Europe in whichever way that works.

The program is pretty unwatchable, the songs are unlistenable, and while nominally pop music, the music is not very popular.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-08, 09:41:30
Of course, that's based on what you know of American television. Unfortunately show such as Honey Boo Boo become the stereotype even though must Americans themselves shake their heads sadly at it. My observation is that most of the negative American stereotypes (gun-toting, poorly educated and generally ignorant, etc) are actually the south-eastern states and in no way apply all of America.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-09, 23:16:21

Of course, that's based on what you know of American television.
No European sees American television but jax. And rjhowie I suppose.
They are not too much different anyway, except for rjhowie being inoffensive.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-06-10, 12:29:19
Well our tv in Gt Britain is saturated with US stuff and much of it is as, well midnight derides much for. I prefer documentaries and historical programmes and if not getting enough at least I have my excellent hobby of doing railway simulator building!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-10, 14:16:33
my excellent hobby of doing railway simulator building!
That must be really exciting... do you ever crash killing hundreds? I suppose hundred of... bytes, maybe even a mega or two.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2016-06-10, 17:13:51
"Well our tv in Gt Britain is saturated with US stuff...I prefer documentaries and historical programmes"
So do I, and some of our favorites are British shows on Netflix.
We like Inspector Morse and Inspector Lewis.
There's a good show, Frasier, that both of like.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-06-10, 18:33:28
These UEFA flag poster things are pretty cool.

https://www.behance.net/gallery/38144063/UEFA-EURO-2016-Poster-Series

(https://mir-s3-cdn-cf.behance.net/project_modules/max_1200/8a910038144063.5757306f68d92.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-11, 12:11:21
Too much asexual.
Anyway, why's Great Britain allowed to compete with four or five selections none representing the Country?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Luxor on 2016-06-11, 12:53:33
why's Great Britain allowed to compete with four or five selections none representing the Country?
Apart from the obvious that GB is made up of separate countries, you would need all the home nations respective football associations to agree to play as a team GB. There's as much chance of that as there is of Scotland winning the next world cup.  :lol:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-11, 13:18:03
Apart from the obvious that GB is made up of separate countries,
What seems obvious to me is that GB is cheating.  :lol:
What 's next? Gibraltar? The Falklands? with how many teams do you want to compete? By the same "logic" the next World Cup will have 52 American teams...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Luxor on 2016-06-11, 13:33:25
What seems obvious to me is that GB is cheating.  :lol:
Go tell UEFA and Fifa.  :P
What 's next? Gibraltar?
Gibraltar have a team, they didn't qualify though. Scotland beat them 6-0 in our final qualifying game, though it was all over for us by then. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/crying.gif)
By the same "logic" the next World Cup will have 52 American teams...
Why? They aren't separate countries.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2016-06-11, 17:46:37

By the same "logic" the next World Cup will have 52 American teams...
Why? They aren't separate countries.
[/quote]
The US won't be competitive for years, perhaps decades, but there are many thousands of youngsters playing the game because of its relative low cost. All of my grandchildren play the game.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-06-11, 17:53:01
What seems obvious to me is that GB is cheating.  :lol:
Try to take off your anti-Anglo-Saxon glasses so you can get the picture. :D
As Luxor already stated, FIFA considers associations. GB has more than one because it isn't a monolithic state.
Aside of that, if there would be a single football association, its team would be considerable stronger than the FA (http://www.thefa.com/) ever had.

By the same "logic" the next World Cup will have 52 American teams...
If the USA will found 52 football associations, then those teams could take part at international competitions.
Imagine how any of those 52 teams would look like in international competitions. Guess how many of them would qualify for the World Cup tournament.
The same would apply to an administrative splitted Portugal. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Luxor on 2016-06-11, 17:57:50
The US won't be competitive for years, perhaps decades,
Oh I don't know about that. They are doing better than we are and we've been playing the game since the 1860's
I can see the US reaching the quarter final stages at least, in the not too distant future.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-11, 21:11:03
Is this full of idiots???
At this very moment "Wales" won and another aberration called "England" wins against Russia.
There's only one and one country called the United Kingdom, nothing else. Why they do play with four selections??

By playing with four different teams, this a violation of the competition rules. There's only one country , the UK, nothing else.
Not difficult to understand string's attack against Fifa, an attempt  to hide the immense benefit the UK got from Blatter.

It doesn't surprises me at all.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-06-12, 06:29:28
ICELAND'S PATH TO CERTAIN VICTORY AT EURO 2016 (https://grapevine.is/culture/2016/06/10/icelands-path-to-certain-victory-at-euro-2016/) (The Reykjavík Grapevine)

Quote
In case you haven't noticed, the Icelandic men's football team have, this year, finally equalled the achievement of their female counterparts and qualified for the finals of a major international tournament. And today, Euro 2016 finally begins. As hundreds of Icelanders make the trip over to France to revel in the once-in-four-generations sporting spectacle of Iceland competing against some of the world's greatest teams, they leave behind a nation gripped in the nervous, sweaty-palm of pre-tournament tension.

Of course, Iceland are destined to triumph gloriously. So, here it is: the Grapevine guide to how the Icelandic men's football team will exact a mighty and overdue revenge on the entire continent of Europe for the indignity of all those Eurovision defeats.



Because FIFA has not yet realised the true power of Iceland's unstoppable víkingar, they must first prove themselves by demonstrating the majesty of the Icelandic game against an initial three pitiable foes.

June 14: A rout of the meek Portuguese
Iceland's march to glory at Euro 2016 begins when they stride forth onto the battlefield of Saint-Étienne, where they will undoubtedly grind the meek Portuguese beneath their winged boots, blessed by the power of the mighty Thor. We expect to see Cristiano Ronaldo's heavily gelled hair stand on end from the sheer electricity of the brave Icelanders as his team is beset by Thor's lightning bolts, blasting their defence apart as Gylfi Sigurðsson strides across their cratered box to slot home the winner past the goalkeeper, who has, of course, been crushed by a blow from Mjollnir. Result: 19-0.

June 18: A historic trouncing of the terrified Hungarians
Iceland's vikings will then proceed to Marseille, looked down upon, no doubt, by Týr, the god of justice and heroic glory. After an evening of bathing in tears of the decimated Portuguese, and some rehydrating sports mead, Týr will understand that the only just outcome for the second group game is for the Hungarian team to be soundly whipped and thoroughly routed. His rune is an upwards arrow, which may mean a thunderous headed goal after a mighty leap from striker Kolbeinn Sigþórsson. Result: 7-0.

June 22: A demonstration of true Icelandic power against the fleeing Austrians
Next, Iceland's heroes will proceed to Saint-Denis. After team manager Lars Lagerbäck makes offerings of meat and blood to the Allfather, Odin will look kindly over the next game against the cowering soon-to-be-destroyed Austrians, smiting them with his mighty spear of destiny. Many of them will no doubt be sent to feel the wrath of Hel, the goddess who'll greet Iceland's crushed foes at the gates of the underworld. Result: 12-0.

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-06-12, 07:06:03
Here is a large piece detailing the horrible treatment at the border in the UK.

https://medium.com/@rachelnabors/wtfuk-73009d5623b4
Quote
This is the system we asked for. We thought it wouldn't apply to "us." We built it to keep Them out, to keep Us safe. But how quickly that system turns and engulfs the ones we love.

I don't see that anyone would've ever actually thought that, ever.

Quote
Think this is a fluke? Think this won't happen to you? Think again.

But this. This I'm on board with.

And the conclusion:

Quote
My husband and I were planning a 2017 trip to Scotland to see his mother's birthplace. It is canceled. I will not go back to the United Kingdom. People from the UK can come see me when I speak in continental Europe, where I'm wanted.

I will not risk a third worst experience of my life.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2016-06-12, 11:21:40
If the USA will found 52 football associations, then those teams could take part at international competitions.
We'll have to find two more states. Quickly!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-12, 12:03:20
As Luxor already stated, FIFA considers associations.
Course not, any country has several associations. Fifa considers the national federation to get a selection of players, from the several associations, that will represent the Country at the competition. It couldn't be in any other way.

ICELAND'S PATH TO CERTAIN VICTORY AT EURO 2016
Iceland should enter the competition with two teams, the Ice selection and the Land selection...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Luxor on 2016-06-12, 12:23:29
another aberration called "England" wins against Russia.
It was 1-1 on my TV and I'm sure my TV isn't broken. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Wink.gif)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-12, 13:55:56
Because justice was made at 90+2 and I don't have the patience for watching so much time of football.
As a result, Wales got into the lead of the group...  :faint:

Today is time for another UK clone team to enter the competition... when this is going to stop? hey, why not Portugal as one of your teams? :)
Then, you'll have a real chance to win.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Luxor on 2016-06-12, 14:11:13
why not Portugal as one of your teams?  :) 
Then, you'll have a real chance to win.
It would be our only chance of winning.  :yes:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-06-12, 16:09:18
Is this full of idiots???
Nope, just a few. ;)
BTW, it seems that you enjoy making statements about things you evidently have no idea about. :)

As Luxor already stated, FIFA considers associations.
Course not, any country has several associations. Fifa considers the national federation to get a selection of players, from the several associations, that will represent the Country at the competition. It couldn't be in any other way.

"Association" or "Federation" - it's a matter of language.

Asociación del Fútbol Argentino, Federação Portuguesa de Futebol or:
Football Association of Wales, Scottish Football Association, Football Association of Ireland, The Football Association (England)

There is no UK or GB association/federation and never was for obvious reasons.
Furthermore FIFA didn't make any favor to the UK.

The first official match between representatives of two nations (England and Scotland) took place 1872.
The Scottish Football Association was founded in 1873, the second oldest national football association of the world.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-12, 17:31:33
"Association" or "Federation" - it's a matter of language.
No, it's a matter of level. A federation being the higher level, meaning an association of associations.
There is no UK or GB association/federation and never was for obvious reasons.
Their problem. It doesn't allows them to play with four teams in a competition.
By the way, they also are present at the UN as four countries? At the EU they count for how many?

Scotland can participate in the European Championship the day they leave the UK, not before. So it goes for all the others.

The current situation is simply inadmissible and I hope it takes not too much time to someone to complain to a proper court to ban them from further competitions. There's not any justification to allow such deviation from the principles of a fair competition to continue. Each sovereign country can participate with one and only one team into competition, as obvious.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Luxor on 2016-06-12, 17:54:02
Their problem. It doesn't allows them to play with four teams in a competition.
The UK has never played with four teams in a competition. The countries of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland do, though I don't recall all 4 of them ever qualifying at the same time in any competition. Unless you include the Home Internationals which is no longer played.

The current situation is simply inadmissible and I hope it takes not too much time to someone to complain to a proper court to ban them from further competitions.
Let me know how it goes, it would save us the embarrassment of missing out on qualification all the time.  :yes:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-12, 22:35:37
The UK has never played with four teams in a competition. The countries of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland do,
Are you at some sort of self denialism, Luxor?
The UK has always played with a variety of selections simultaneously.

Did ever Spain played with selections from all the former independent kingdoms of Galiza, Navarra, Asturias, and so on?
Nope. Shame on you.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-06-13, 08:21:44
"Association" or "Federation" - it's a matter of language.
No, it's a matter of level. A federation being the higher level, meaning an association of associations.
For those who can read and are able to understand what they are reading: AFA (http://www.afa.org.ar/)
So you better should stop trolling, except it's one of your hobbies. ;)
BTW, "Deutscher Fussball-Bund" which translates "German Footbal Association" is as many other associations worldwide, the governing body of football of the  country.

Their problem. It doesn't allows them to play with four teams in a competition.
Not at all.
The only person on earth who seems to have a problem with it is you. :)

By the way, they also are present at the UN as four countries? At the EU they count for how many?
Don't mix up the UN with FIFA. They are different entities.
Once again, we are speaking of nations and national teams. It doesn't matter if the country of a nation is independent or not. If you want to deprive nations from having their own national teams, go ahead and change the FIFA rules. Good luck. :)

Did ever Spain played with selections from all the former independent kingdoms...
No, it didn't but it could have if there would have been more democracy in the post-Franco era.
If Spain would be at least as democratic as the UK , then Catalans and  Basques could have their own football association (federation) accredited by the FIFA. No football fan would complain, except someone from Portugal maybe. :D

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-13, 10:40:01
The European Championship is organized by the UEFA not the FIFA. You clearly know nothing about sportive laws and organization.

Edit:
I tell you the reason why the UK is allowed a treatment of favor and exception regarding all other countries:
Quote
Each of the countries of the United Kingdom, sometimes referred to as the home nations, has a national football association responsible for the overall management of football within their respective nation: The Football Association, (FA) is responsible for England and the Crown Dependencies and was founded in 1863, The Scottish Football Association (SFA) was founded in 1873 followed by the Football Association of Wales in 1876 and Irish Football Association (IFA) in 1880. They are the world's four oldest national football associations and play an important part in football worldwide as they take up four of the eight seats on the International Football Association Board (IFAB), which determines the Laws of the Game, (the other four seats being occupied by FIFA.
There you have why they are allowed to compete with four teams while everybody else only can compete with one.

Read the rest of the article and you'll see if they are allowed to do the same at the Olympic Games...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-06-13, 12:14:02
What's clear to me is that Football is not the Olympic Games.
The Olympic Games are supposed to gather countries, while the FIFA is supposed to gather Football Associations.
Whether it's fair or not, it's another question.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-13, 12:47:38
Whether it's fair or not, it's another question.
Whether it's fair or not, it's the question.
Four local associations, all them from a single political sovereign entity - the UK, acts as being the owners and rulers of the sport, establishing a de facto situation that benefit them and can't be justified by any legal or moral principle.
At any other area or sport such situation would be just a big joke.



Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Luxor on 2016-06-13, 13:08:53
Did ever Spain played with selections from all the former independent kingdoms of Galiza, Navarra, Asturias, and so on?
Do they all have individual football associations? If not, that will be why not, I would imagine.
Four local associations, all them from a single political sovereign entity - the UK
Four individual football associations, one from each country. who would never unite as one, as it would be the English FA in all but name.
Complain to FIFA if it bothers you that much. It might give the SFA something to occupy them while we sit out another tournament. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/EvilGrin.gif)

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-13, 13:31:28
Did ever Spain played with selections from all the former independent kingdoms of Galiza, Navarra, Asturias, and so on?
Do they all have individual football associations? If not, that will be why not, I would imagine.
Course they have.

Complain to FIFA if it bothers you that much.
It's the UEFA.
Neither UEFA or FIFA are above regular courts so it's up to the French to complain since they're playing in French territory. A cautionary measure suspending the championship until a final French court decision would be perfectly admissible and legal. :)

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Luxor on 2016-06-13, 13:38:58
it's up to the French to complain since they're playing in French territory.
I think they are rather busy at the moment.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-06-13, 16:34:39
The European Championship is organized by the UEFA not the FIFA. You clearly know nothing about sportive laws and organization.

FIFA, because it stands above UEFA and other regional confederations.

Edit:
I tell you the reason why...

You are telling me the reason?  :jester:
However, I see that you've started to read about football. :D
You should have done it before making stupid claims. ;)

Four local associations, all them from a single political sovereign entity - the UK, acts as being the owners and rulers of the sport, establishing a de facto situation that benefit them and can't be justified by any legal or moral principle.
1. Four associations representing four nations with their national teams!
2. The UK doesn't benefit! How could it?
One team made out of the best players from the four associations would give a much stronger team than any of the four! This should be self-evident even for a half-brained. :D

Did ever Spain played with selections from all the former independent kingdoms of Galiza, Navarra, Asturias, and so on?
Do they all have individual football associations? If not, that will be why not, I would imagine.
Course they have.
AFAIK none of them is affiliated to the FIFA or to the UEFA. Though the Catalan Football Federation is the oldest one in Spain...

Neither UEFA or FIFA are above regular courts so it's up to the French to complain since they're playing in French territory.
Once again, you're utterly wrong.
Even if they play on French territory, they have to obey the rules imposed by the UEFA and FIFA.
First you have to agree with the rules before you are permitted to host the tournament.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-06-13, 17:06:06
Don't worry, Belfrager. On Thursday it's England vs Wales. They will kick each other out and the tournament can continue in a normal way.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-14, 23:39:51
Don't worry, Belfrager. On Thursday it's England vs Wales. They will kick each other out and the tournament can continue in a normal way.
Secondary. The main thing is that Portugal won against a selection of paralytics from Iceland by 1-1. :)
Since they are handicapped, our players imitated them so our victory could be fair.
I'm looking forward for our next victory.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-06-15, 06:53:43
Speaking of Iceland, currently about 6% of the country is residing in France:

http://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/news/news/2016/06/10/8_prosent_of_icelanders_are_off_to_euro_2016_in_fra/
http://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2016/06/14/un-islandais-sur-dix-est-en-france-pour-l-euro-2016_4950295_4355770.html

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=s2.lemde.fr%2Fimage%2F2016%2F06%2F14%2F534x0%2F4950353_6_1afd_2016-06-14-22074f4-6599-16axvf1_f935d054bbe12d88e5954da96fc0228c.png)

(Saying 6% is "almost one in ten" seems a bit clickbaitish though.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-06-15, 09:48:22
Speaking of Iceland, currently about 6% of the country is residing in France
Imagine there would be World Cup now in France with the Chinese national football team among those qualified for the tournament.
What if about 6% of China's population would reside now in France? :D
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-06-15, 23:19:12
@krake : May I have your thoughts on Brexit, were "Leave" to actually win the vote?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-06-17, 14:30:43
I'm fine with whatever decision the Britons will take. :)
IMHO it's their and only their right to choose what they think to be best for them.

I'm deeply impressed that the Britons get the chance to vote by referendum.
It'll be the second referendum within a short time, the first one being about Scotland's independence.  Kudos!
Such referendums are unimaginable in Germany or most other European countries excepting Switzerland.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2016-06-18, 10:32:57
What if about 6% of China's population would reside now in France?  :D
I'd move there because I love both Chinese and French food. Just imagine croissants with sweet and sour chicken!
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-YBLDNbLxLVI%2FU5f2BRM1UNI%2FAAAAAAAAIss%2Fh_XD2gUM6D4%2Fs1600%2Fchef-smiley.png&hash=5b79e7440b8f4ba90c9274c857cf5c1a" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YBLDNbLxLVI/U5f2BRM1UNI/AAAAAAAAIss/h_XD2gUM6D4/s1600/chef-smiley.png)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-06-18, 11:07:41
So far Brexit goes according to plan. After the UK leaves, the last step is Scotland rejoining the Union, taking the UK's place.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-18, 21:36:25
Forget the irrelevant Brexit. My team got a null against Austria, Hitler's homeland and Germany's backyard.
I'm ashamed.

We'll have to smash Hungary ruthlessly, a country that I respect. Not easy to be an European.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Luxor on 2016-06-19, 11:48:13
My team got a null against Austri
It was nice of the preening Ronaldo to miss his penalty. Such sportsmanship should not go without it's reward.  :yes:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-19, 13:52:15
It was nice of the preening Ronaldo to miss his penalty. Such sportsmanship should not go without it's reward.  :yes:
:irked:
The Gods were not with us.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2016-06-21, 14:52:23
Speaking of Iceland, currently about 6% of the country is residing in France
Or about 12 people, children included.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-06-24, 04:44:28
An update, Europe today:

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-06-24, 06:20:33
You've left out an important one.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-06-24, 06:27:03
Is the Brexit vote binding, or merely advisory? (You know, considering how "wide" a democracy GB has... :) )
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-06-24, 06:41:43
Is the Brexit vote binding, or merely advisory?
AFAIK it is not binding but this time it'll be hard to ignore.

BTW,
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Ffun.drno.de%2Fpics%2Fenglish%2Fno-means-no.jpg&hash=55c19ceb7e15d8c29ab5de275091d187" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://fun.drno.de/pics/english/no-means-no.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-06-24, 08:40:23
You've left out an important one.
  • In the UK more than 50% did vote for Brexit.


In England and Wales. England will fight Iceland, Wales will fight Northern Ireland, that like Scotland voted to remain. Scotland didn't qualify for Euro 24, but may qualify for EU 28.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-06-24, 11:47:35
If Britain really obeys the voting results, then EU will have hard time explaining why anybody else shouldn't exit. If Britain ignores the voting results, it will be politics as usual, talking about democracy when convenient, always overriding it in practice.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-06-24, 12:07:41
Heh,

Well that escalated quickly (https://twitter.com/gabrieldread/status/746309736065282048)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CltnqKmWIAAtkO2.jpg:large)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-06-24, 13:26:45
"Spain about to make a claim for dual sovereignty of Gibraltar"
Opportunism paired  with hypocrisy.
How about Spain to make a claim for sovereignty of Catalonia and the Basque Country first? :D

It's just the beginning of a dirty 'war'. An example has to be statuated, so nobody else shoud dare to think of an exit.
Next shot will probably come from oversea where US rating agencies which are often used as weapons, will downgrade the UK.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-24, 15:56:56
President Tusk, President Schulz and Prime Minister Rutte met this morning in Brussels upon the invitation of European Commission President Juncker. They discussed the outcome of the United Kingdom referendum and made the following joint statement: (http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2016/06/24-joint-statement-uk-referendum/)

Quote
"In a free and democratic process, the British people have expressed their wish to leave the European Union. We regret this decision but respect it.

This is an unprecedented situation but we are united in our response. We will stand strong and uphold the EU's core values of promoting peace and the well-being of its peoples. The Union of 27 Member States will continue. The Union is the framework of our common political future. We are bound together by history, geography and common interests and will develop our cooperation on this basis. Together we will address our common challenges to generate growth, increase prosperity and ensure a safe and secure environment for our citizens. The institutions will play their full role in this endeavour.

We now expect the United Kingdom government to give effect to this decision of the British people as soon as possible, however painful that process may be.
There you have the answer, it was fast. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-06-25, 10:32:49
Quote from: Statement by the EU leaders and the Netherlands Presidency on the outcome of the UK referendum, http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2016/06/24-joint-statement-uk-referendum/
As agreed, the "New Settlement for the United Kingdom within the European Union", reached at the European Council on 18-19 February 2016, will now not take effect and ceases to exist. There will be no renegotiation.
In other words, let's put behind us all the idiotic whining and threats by Cameron throughout last year in Brussels. Good riddance, Britain!

That's the immediate EU response at the highest official level.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-06-25, 12:45:35
It's a game of chicken. By forcing a speedy decision from the UK there's a chance they'll back out of it. Europe is united; the UK is internally divided. EU leadership couldn't have responded any better, which is a hopeful state of affairs no matter the outcome.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-25, 13:16:39
EU leadership couldn't have responded any better, which is a hopeful state of affairs no matter the outcome.
Yes.
Now, for the one million euros question, who will assume UK's place for opposing Germany dictatorship? any candidates out there?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-06-25, 14:56:50
Had Brexit occurred two years ago, I would have said that eurozone and rouble zone are ready for a friendly unification, to be ruled by Merkel and Putin. Now the EU is ripe to be taken apart and gobbled up by anyone who happens to be close around and feeling hungry.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-25, 15:05:16
Had Brexit occurred two years ago, I would have said that eurozone and rouble zone are ready for a friendly unification, to be ruled by Merkel and Putin.
That's a very... well, original thinking.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-06-25, 15:31:47
Now, for the one million euros question, who will assume UK's place for opposing Germany dictatorship? any candidates out there?
Portugal  :idea:  :right:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-06-25, 15:38:50
Europe is united;
Cough cough.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Jochie on 2016-06-25, 15:48:58
It's a game of chicken. By forcing a speedy decision from the UK there's a chance they'll back out of it. Europe is united; the UK is internally divided. EU leadership couldn't have responded any better, which is a hopeful state of affairs no matter the outcome.
How can the EU force the UK government to invoke Article 50 quickly?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-06-25, 16:21:50
They explicitly said no trade negotiations without it. For the UK that's like a crash landing.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-06-25, 16:31:13
How can the EU force the UK government to invoke Article 50 quickly?
AFAIK it can't. Don't let you get mislead by medial rhetoric.
The UK has fulfilled for now its obligations by imforming the EU that it'll leave the union.
The Brexit is a complicated process and two years would be within the EU statutes.
As long as the Brexit isn't finalized the UK is still member of the EU with all its duties and rights.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-06-26, 06:36:29
It's a game of chicken. By forcing a speedy decision from the UK there's a chance they'll back out of it. Europe is united; the UK is internally divided. EU leadership couldn't have responded any better, which is a hopeful state of affairs no matter the outcome.

As soon as the UK invokes Article 50, they will automatically and irrevocably (even by Britain) be out of the EU two years later. No buts, no recall, no revote. It's a giant chicken indeed.

An alternative deal to membership on the other hand needs the strictest form of qualified majority (72% of the countries, 65% of the population),  that is 20 countries (excluding UK) and 30.5% of today's EU population (again excluding the UK) would be enough to block an agreement. Have fun with the voting calculator (http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/voting-calculator/).

The EEC 6 (France, Italy, Be-Ne-Lux, Germany (New formula! Now including DDR!) comprise 6 countries (too few) and 54% of the population as Britain has no vote (47% of today's population).

A pro-UK mix of the Nordic countries (4 members), Ireland, Netherlands, Poland and Czechia would have 8 countries (enough) and 18% of today's population (barely half). 

The scheming enemy of Britain is, as we all know, France. Let this latter-day Richelieu look for a block. France has 13% of the population, needs 17.5% more, which would probably be easier than looking for 7 co-conspirators. Spain has had issues with the UK since some marriage arrangements went awry some years ago. That's another 9%. If Italy's 12% came on board that would be a neat Mediterranean alliance and already has 34% of the votes. It wouldn't be enough to block majority today, but will the very day Britain applies Article 50. 

The two year clock can't be stopped, but could be paused, in theory indefinitely. However that requires unanimity. Any country, including Portugal, including Malta, could block this. If that happens and the negotiations couldn't get through every blocking majority, even if Britain accepted any treaty on the table, in two years Britain would be out with nothing. The status of Britain would be no better than e.g. Burma, arguably worse as Burma has a trade deal with the EU. 

That would be horrible for the EU, much worse yet for Britain, and bad for the whole world (have you looked to your local stock exchange lately?). Politicians couldn't possibly be so stupid and insane to opt for a result where everyone loses, right? Well... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_government_shutdown_of_2013)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-06-26, 06:49:07
The EU has an "image" problem: They've refused to look in the mirror and see the Gorgon...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-06-26, 06:52:22
What you said there made no sense, you know.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-06-26, 07:24:04
Of course! Statists always see only what they want to see.
Bureaucrats can't imagine a society not ruled by them.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-06-26, 07:43:45
The axis of evil: statists, bureaucrats, grammarians
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-06-26, 09:52:53
The status of Britain would be no better than e.g. Burma, arguably worse as Burma has a trade deal with the EU.
There is a small difference though between Burma and Britain. An immediate trade stop with Burma would hardly seriously hit any of the EU countries while export to Britain is very important to some. So new dissent within EU members is as good as preprogrammed.

Politicians couldn't possibly be so stupid and insane to opt for a result where everyone loses, right? Well... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_government_shutdown_of_2013)
They did it before and I mean the EU and not the USA (even so it happened under havy pressure of the latter) .
Didn't they?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Sparta on 2016-06-26, 10:09:45
(https://s31.postimg.org/hifimcwkb/FB_IMG_1466934609908.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-06-26, 10:40:19
My hope, and belief I think, is that the EU 27+1 are less dysfunctional than the US Congress.

It is a strong motivator to be told that if you haven't fulfilled your task by midnight a bomb will go off. Unfortunately it doesn't quite work out that way i practice, and it is a high-risk strategy, much like calling a referendum you don't plan to lose.

The classic EEC/EC/EU last minute bargaining were impressive feats of negotiation, even redefining time as fit. However, the earlier bargains were with fewer countries. If they need more time any country can put down an effective veto. Greece in particular did that often back in the days, mostly to good results. The move to offset a veto-blackmail is of course counter-blackmail mixed with a couple perks for good will.

A British exit without a trade agreement would of course be bad for Britain and the EU, but it would not be equally bad. Close trading partners, to a large extent close political partners, would feel the burn. That includes France and Germany that both would want an ordered exit. But there are other countries less affected, Slovenia for instance. If Britain crashed and burned it wouldn't have an effect on their economy, unless did it so badly that it would affect Slovenia's major trading partners. So, what's in it for them?

There are several countries that have a gripe against the EU. Greek Cyprus, as well as Greece itself, top the list. They may not have particularly much against Britain, but this would be a good time to renegotiate. Nothing personal, business is business.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-06-26, 12:14:56
http://www.nzz.ch/meinung/kommentare/englisch-als-dominante-sprache-der-eu-brexit-und-babel-ld.88901

On English as the EU working language. It ain't going anywhere.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-06-26, 12:23:48
(https://s31.postimg.org/hifimcwkb/FB_IMG_1466934609908.jpg)
This one misses the point in about every way possible. I assume it was part in no Leave campaign.

Britain is a small net or absolute contributor to the EU per capita, though as one of the big three the total contributions are significant to the EU budget. The biggest contributor per capita is still the Netherlands, while Germany is clearly biggest in total, and one of the biggest per capita. An absence of British funds would be noticeable, but a fairly minor issue.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.static-economist.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fimagecache%2Foriginal-size%2Fimages%2Fprint-edition%2F20160213_BRC407_0.png&hash=232dff7b9c94e358c96934e381f26dac" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/images/print-edition/20160213_BRC407_0.png)

More important than the EU budget, which is tiny at <1% of the economy, is the economy at large. While Germany would have a loss on that 99% of the economy, it will be much smaller than the British loss.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-06-26, 12:34:06
http://www.nzz.ch/meinung/kommentare/englisch-als-dominante-sprache-der-eu-brexit-und-babel-ld.88901

On English as the EU working language. It ain't going anywhere.

It could be a greater reason to use English if it was the native language of no country. In the Nordic Council (with Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Iceland the major members) the working language is English, even though it is the native language of no member country.

Apart from catering to the Finns (who in theory could speak some Swedish) and the Icelanders (who in theory could speak some Danish), it avoids the fruitless discussion of which Scandinavian language to use. In practice everyone is more happy with English.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-06-26, 12:42:04
Something similar happens in Belgium. I'm pretty sure the soccer team used to be called De Rode Duivels and Les Diables Rouges, but now I'm getting the impression that they're called The Red Devils.

PS Ireland natively speaks English. The article I linked would have it a little differently than you:
Quote
Welche Folgen wird nun der Ausgang des Referendums im Vereinigten Königreich auf das Sprachregime der EU haben? Wenn die Briten bleiben, gar keine; und wenn sie gehen, auch keine. Denn zum Glück ist da noch Irland.
Which consequences will the result of the referendum in the UK have on the EU's language policies? When they stay, none; and when they go, none either. Because luckily there's still Ireland.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-26, 13:13:00
EU's language policies?
The EU has 24 official languages. I suppose the EU must be the international organization that spends more with translations.
Quote
The EU institutions pass laws that apply directly to everyone in the EU. Everybody -- individuals, organisations and the courts -- must be able to understand them, which means they must be available in all official languages.
Using as many national languages as possible makes the EU and its institutions more open and effective.
http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/translation/translating/officiallanguages/index_en.htm
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-26, 13:27:22
Younger generations says they are being forced to leave an European common future. They're absolutely right.
No more stars in their eyes anymore.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FGq19tHQ.jpg&hash=93d1d6aecfcae546bf6a3b5c971fc8d0" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/Gq19tHQ.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-06-26, 13:31:18
PS Ireland natively speaks English. The article I linked would have it a little differently than you:

Which consequences will the result of the referendum in the UK have on the EU's language policies? When they stay, none; and when they go, none either. Because luckily there's still Ireland.

I think a majority of the member countries, if not necessarily a majority of the member country population, would want English (now a "neutral" language) as an official EU language, even if it weren't one of the official languages of any member country. How hard it would be to institute such a change I don't know.

It wouldn't depend on Ireland incidentally. The article writer forgot that English is one of the official languages of Malta. That would be Malta's day in the sun (if we forget that Malta has more sun than most any other European place).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-06-26, 23:39:32
A view that Europeans (or Britons? :) ) are unlikely to see:
Quote
A forward-looking president would view Brexit not as a setback, but as an opportunity for the U.S. to expand commerce with the United Kingdom still further. And this will be much easier to do now, because trade deals with post-Brexit Britain will no longer be subject to the whims of Italian tomato farmers, Spanish vintners or other unrelated special interests with grudges and special markets to protect.

Indeed, one of the strongest arguments for Brexit within Britain relates directly to this fact. Daniel Hannan, the soon-to-be former member of the European Parliament who writes a weekly column for the Washington Examiner, has repeatedly pointed out that such petty intra-EU bickering has up to now prevented the U.K. from finalizing favorable trade deals even with its own fellow Commonwealth nations of Australia and Canada.
(source (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/a-smart-president-would-view-brexit-as-an-opportunity/article/2594899?utm_campaign=Washington%20Examiner:%20Opinion%20Digest%20PMI&utm_source=Washington%20Examiner:%20Opinion%20Digest%20PMI%20-%2006/25/16&utm_medium=email))
I know, I know: The vote was all about xenophobia and neo-Nazism, and -of course- the great (as in numerous...) uneducated [...who was in charge of their education, by the way? :)] unwashed! Oh, and of course they're "white"...
(Does anyone accuse Swedes of being white? :) )
A united Europe remains a pipe dream...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-06-27, 06:21:00
Daniel "Brexit will be a gentle process" Hannan is actually quite positive about immigration. Wisely he didn't tell before the referendum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCghi2rVaWY

Compared to the other Leave promise retractions (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/26/brexit-leaders-are-walking-back-some-of-their-biggest-promises/) it didn't quite reach up there. I am particularly fond of Ian Duncan Smith (IDS)'s statement that promises are just "a series of possibilities". It's a memorable one, there with "the meaning of the word 'is' is", but a quintessential politician's answer, while Clinton's was a lawyer's. 

But absolutely, sulking isn't a good strategy. Get on with it, make the best of it, muddling through is what the European Union has done now for over a decade. The EU as we know it today is thanks to Britain (https://medium.com/@jaxroam/the-framing-of-eu-in-britain-e05cea158708). Now they will presumably go their separate ways.

There are deals that could be had that couldn't be had under the same conditions inside the EU, other business are likely to be lost. The friction will be higher. The centre of gravity has shifted. You reassess, reevaluate, readjust, repackage. As a business case I see very little upside, but you deal with what you've been dealt. Life goes on. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSsDxbbpdO0

London will be besieged. Cities like Paris, Stockholm, Amsterdam look at poaching companies from London. Frankfurt was beaten by London as the European financial centre, and might look to regain ground. The siege will be lifted, the package of London is hard to beat: The weather, the people, the language so reminiscent of English. 

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-06-27, 06:58:49
A view that Europeans (or Britons?  :)  ) are unlikely to see:
It's a rather obvious view, isn't it? A separate UK is much weaker and can attain much fewer concessions from the US than the EU. Of course it's an opportunity for the US. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-06-27, 08:22:06
But absolutely, sulking isn't a good strategy. Get on with it, make the best of it, muddling through is what the European Union has done now for over a decade. The EU as we know it today is thanks to Britain (https://medium.com/@jaxroam/the-framing-of-eu-in-britain-e05cea158708). Now they will presumably go their separate ways.
I'd subscribe to Atom/RSS, but that doesn't seem to be an option. /lesigh
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Luxor on 2016-06-27, 12:22:16
Pro-Brexit Lols.  :lol:
Faisal Islam, Sky News Journalist, Says Pro-Brexit MP Told Him 'Leave Campaign Don't Have A Plan' (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/faisal-islam-brexit-no-plan_uk_576fe22ee4b0d2571149cffd)
Quote
"So - and I've said this before - the person with the most thought through plan, as evidenced by the past 48 hours, is, astonishingly, Nicola Sturgeon, the first minister of Scotland".
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2016-06-27, 12:34:43
Brexit as seen by U.S. loonies:
"As the United Kingdom prepared to leave the European Union, British Prime Minister David Cameron announced his resignation, the value of the pound fell and HBO had to assure worried "Game of Thrones" fans that future Northern Ireland film shoots were going to be fine, Sarah Palin came forth with her own take.

On Friday, the former Alaskan governor and 2008 vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin congratulated the "smart Brits," likening the June referendum to the Declaration of Independence. After all, as she noted in a Facebook post, the citizens of the United Kingdom may have avoided nothing less than the end of the world.

Palin, a Donald Trump supporter, applauded the Leave voters for outfoxing "globalists" who would bring about an "apocalyptic One World Government," she wrote on Facebook. That is because the European Union, in her words, is a "One World Government mini-me."

Palin's comments marked a public embrace of a conspiracy theory popularly known as the New World Order. Palin did not elaborate what, exactly, the apocalypse would look like. But the details of who or what make up the New World Order depend on the theorist -- it is a secret organization of politicians, banks, the Illuminati, the media or, perhaps, lizard people. Distilled, the main goal of the organization is a totalitarian regime that will emerge from the shadows: One World Government to rule them all."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/06/27/sarah-palin-celebrates-brexit-says-uk-avoided-apocalyptic-one-world-government/?hpid=hp_no-name_no-name%3Ahomepage%2Fstory (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/06/27/sarah-palin-celebrates-brexit-says-uk-avoided-apocalyptic-one-world-government/?hpid=hp_no-name_no-name%3Ahomepage%2Fstory)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-06-27, 19:18:17
Iceland is performing like a real football country. Leading against England right now. Fantastic.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-06-27, 19:43:24
Seems like they're ahead by 2-1? Neat.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Luxor on 2016-06-27, 19:54:50
Remote island nation with beleaguered economy in danger of being put out by Iceland.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ensbb3 on 2016-06-28, 00:55:21
Scottish Independence makes so much more sense to me right now.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-06-28, 06:01:01
Scotland didn't even qualify though.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-06-28, 06:10:10
If Howie were a player, would you still cheer...! :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-28, 12:37:41
Scotland didn't even qualify though.
The BBC says otherwise.
Quote
The claim: An independent Scotland could remain a member of the European Union while the rest of the UK left, in effect taking over Britain's membership of the EU rather than having to start a fresh application to join as a new country.

Reality Check verdict: The situation is unclear. If Scotland were to hold a second referendum, and become independent, it could apply to become a member of the EU in the usual way. And it is now more plausible that EU member states would try to speed up the process for Scotland than it would have been at the time of the 2014 independence referendum. But we cannot say if it would be able to continue as a member without going through some sort of application process.

The rest of the article elaborates. I'm not certain why an independent Scotland would not qualify for EU membership. Maybe Salmond was right this whole time.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-06-28, 15:33:52
I like the Icelandic commentator in this video (at the 1-2 goal):

https://twitter.com/ehsanfadakar/status/747528763865440257


The BBC says otherwise.
You forgot the link :P http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36619907
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2016-06-28, 15:52:32
Does anybody else here distrust what politicians say?

Remember the old child's rhyme?

Liar, liar, pants on fire.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-06-28, 15:54:27
They were beaten by Germany, Poland, and Ireland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2016_qualifying_Group_D#Standings) and didn't qualify. Theoretically that group could have been Ireland, Scotland, and Gibraltar. That would have given Belfrager indigestion, and robbed Iceland of their outsider status. But scoring 2 goals and having 56 goals scored against you isn't quite good enough.

Incidentally Icelandic football (though not the national team I think) has been sponsored by Jon and Vivaldi for three years now. So now you have a browser vendor to blame for Dutch, Portugese, Austrian, English, French? upsets...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-06-28, 16:01:53
Incidentally Icelandic football (though not the national team I think) has been sponsored by Jon and Vivaldi for three years now. So now you have a browser vendor to blame for Dutch, Portugese, Austrian, English, French? upsets...
I'm not upset. My red beesie supports Belgium now, and I don't think my orange one minds either.

(https://i1.wp.com/farm2.static.flickr.com/1268/4665963460_b0197346b5.jpg?zoom=2) (https://wkvoetbal2010.wordpress.com/tag/beesie-kopen/)

(I only have a couple of small ones.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-06-28, 16:06:12
Not much left of Belfrager's British bugbear now anyway. Scotland was out already. On Friday UK was out. On Saturday Northern Ireland was out. Sunday Southern Ireland. Yesterday England.

Wales is the only country left standing, against the same Belgium, or should we say Brussels?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-06-28, 20:13:31
Not having watched any of the games (besides Belgium's last 12 minutes or so against Hungary, including the third and fourth goal) I have no idea if Wales is any good. Belgium seems to be in excellent form, in any case.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-28, 23:11:36
Not much left of Belfrager's British bugbear now anyway
Justice always win. Brexit with all of them.
It's the last time you applaud here, by the way what are you still doing here, asked Junker to the UK representatives.  :lol:

This is beautiful.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-06-29, 02:57:31
...is fotball really what captivates the European mind? :) Such intelligence and perspicuity! No wonder -- nah. It's pointless. They are what they are.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-06-29, 04:44:29
I will believe the UK will exit the EU when *Theresa May* invokes Article 50. Til then, I ain't buying it. Also, interesting to note that the long-vanquished Lib Dems are seeing a resurgence in party membership.



*= While idiotic enough to call for such an election, can the Tories really be stupid enough to have Donald Drumpf-Lite (Boris Johnson) lead the party? May seems more sensible.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-06-29, 06:15:24
Adviser for Britons - Welcome to France.jpg (http://fun.drno.de/pics/english/welcome-to-france.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-06-29, 06:30:22
The waiting for my train phrase is the best. :p
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Sparta on 2016-06-29, 08:41:24
Uk vs iceland = 1-2

Well, as football founder th UK doing it so bad
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-29, 09:38:17
.is fotball really what captivates the European mind?
The British Pound is in free fall and  may hit parity with US dollar by the end of the year  (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/british-pound-could-hit-history-making-dollar-parity-by-end-of-2016-2016-06-27). the First Minister of Scotland is calling a second Scottish independence referendum "highly likely" , but never mind. Better watch the match :yes:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-06-29, 11:46:23
Uk vs iceland = 1-2

Well, as football founder th UK doing it so bad

Donald Tusk made the same mistake (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2016/06/27/out-england-humiliated-at-euro-2016-days-after-brexit-result---e/), but better performed.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Luxor on 2016-06-29, 12:00:20
It's the last time you applaud here, by the way what are you still doing here, asked Junker to the UK representatives.
The UKIP representative, not the UK representatives. The Scottish representative was given a standing ovation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZONWQ8VOOg
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-06-29, 15:19:48
It's the last time you applaud here, by the way what are you still doing here, asked Junker to the UK representatives.  :lol:

This is beautiful.
Jean Claude Juncker, the Boris Yeltsin of the EU is funny.
Isn't he? (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3625257/EU-chief-Jean-Claude-Juncker-appears-drunk-bizarre-video-hopping-foot-foot-slapping-leaders.html) ;)

BTW, did you also enjoy Juncker kissing Farage? :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2016-06-29, 20:49:32
The video is kerfunkle! But this one works.
http://video.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2016/06/28/5035386612109457664/640x360_5035386612109457664.mp4 (http://video.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2016/06/28/5035386612109457664/640x360_5035386612109457664.mp4)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-29, 22:11:48
The UKIP representative, not the UK representatives. The Scottish representative was given a standing ovation.
Yes, you are correct Luxor.
I salut the Scots. Well, most of you, not the DnDexit one. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-06-29, 22:22:31
The video is kerfunkle! But this one works.
http://video.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2016/06/28/5035386612109457664/640x360_5035386612109457664.mp4 (http://video.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2016/06/28/5035386612109457664/640x360_5035386612109457664.mp4)
Thanks Jim. :)
Google/YouTube can act sometimes very fast...
At the time of my posting today it still worked.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-29, 22:25:27
BTW, did you also enjoy Juncker kissing Farage?  :)
He didn't kiss the other, the told him f*ck you. Read his lips.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-30, 23:26:37
And we beat Poland. Five in a row.
Next it must Belgium, Europe's chamber pot.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-07-01, 11:01:20
Scraped by, more like it. Portugal is the only team still running that hasn't won a single match in regular time.

Here are the Portugal results at full time:

Portugal - Iceland 1-1
Portugal - Austria 0-0
Portugal - Hungary 3-3
Portugal - Croatia 0-0 (1 goal in extra time)
Portugal - Poland 1-1 (5-3 penalty shots)

Team: won against
Poland: Ukraine, Northern Ireland
Wales: Slovakia, Russia
Belgium: Ireland, Sweden, Hungary
Germany: Ukraine, Northern Ireland, Slovakia
Italy: Belgium, Sweden, Spain
France: Romania, Albania, Ireland
Iceland: Austria, England
Portugal: nobody
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-07-01, 18:53:59
http://m.spiegel.de/international/europe/a-1100931.html

Here's an interview with Geert, typically lumped in with Le Pen et al. but not quite as deranged.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-07-01, 20:54:27
Belgium opened the score with probably the most awesome goal, but then lost to Wales 1-3. My condolences @Frenzie
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-07-01, 20:59:11
The most awesome goal? Hm, I suppose I should look that up. I only saw a vid of a missed header (or whatever it's called).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-07-02, 08:29:54
Portugal is the only team still running that hasn't won a single match in regular time.
Which means nobody, absolutely nobody, has won against Portugal be it in regular time or by penalties or any other way. Isn't it?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-07-02, 08:32:51
The most awesome goal?
Well, on YT it's called amazing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDwHN7na8-I
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-07-02, 11:55:01
So, one of the semi finals will be Portugal against Wales.
What an irritating match.

These Walesians (?) are the very example of individual's mediocrity turned into satisfactory collective. We don't like to play against such teams.

Anyway, playing is not our intention, we're much better faking faults, it will be our tactic. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Luxor on 2016-07-02, 14:13:50
These Walesians (?)
I think they are happy if you just call them Welsh.  ;)

Anyway, playing is not our intention, we're much better faking faults, it will be our tactic.  :)
It could be an interesting game, Ronaldo playing against his teammate Gareth Bale. Bragging rights for the new season to the victor. :up:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-07-02, 19:10:28
The most awesome goal?
Well, on YT it's called amazing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDwHN7na8-I
Drat, it's been removed sometime since you posted.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-07-02, 19:15:54
Maybe it was too good. But surely there are other videos of the highlights of the game.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-07-02, 21:29:33
Which means nobody, absolutely nobody, has won against Portugal be it in regular time or by penalties or any other way. Isn't it?

It isn't.  A majority of the teams have been undefeated.

Team: won against : lost against
Poland: Ukraine, Northern Ireland : nobody
Wales: Slovakia, Russia : England
Belgium: Ireland, Sweden, Hungary : Italy
Germany: Ukraine, Northern Ireland, Slovakia : nobody
Italy: Belgium, Sweden, Spain : Ireland
France: Romania, Albania, Ireland : nobody
Iceland: Austria, England : nobody
Portugal: nobody : nobody
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-07-02, 22:02:54
Which means nobody, absolutely nobody, has won against Portugal be it in regular time or by penalties or any other way. Isn't it?
It isn't. 
You must be stupid indeed.

By the way, what is your team? China?
Probably the one that wins...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-07-03, 21:06:23
And there it goes the Icelandic dream.


Semi-Finals
Portugal-Wales
Germany-France

Probably and desirably, Portugal-Germany at the final :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-07-03, 22:11:31
...is fotball really what captivates the European mind?  :)  Such intelligence and perspicuity! No wonder -- nah. It's pointless. They are what they are.
You're absolutely right Oakdale.
Never Europe went for such a low level.

Football as turned to the modern days equivalent to medieval jousting tournaments that acts as the simulacrum of wars.
We can't afford wars anymore, so we have football...


Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-07-04, 13:55:05
Probably and desirably, Portugal-Germany at the final :)
Desirably from your and my point of veiw of course. :)  But I'm sure that many people don't share this point of view. ;)
Besides, the French team is IMO a serious candidate for the trophy.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-07-04, 13:56:14
Magic tricks in Polish breakfast TV show.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-07-04, 18:17:52
Besides, the French team is IMO a serious candidate for the trophy.
Allez Les Bleus!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-07-04, 20:14:25
Alles Les Bleus!
You mean Les Bleus über Alles! :D
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-07-04, 22:18:20
Besides, the French team is IMO a serious candidate for the trophy.
That is your problem, isn't it?  :lol:
Mine it's just Wales.
Wednesday mine will be solved, Thursday it's your time.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-07-05, 11:37:26
You mean Les Bleus über Alles!  :D
If you prefer. :P
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-07-06, 22:27:52
Et voilá, Portugal at the final, as expected.  :hat:
Not too much effort to send Wales home.

Tomorrow will be a relaxing day watching the Teutons against the Gaulois for determining the next and final victim.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-07-09, 10:41:04
José Manuel Barroso to work for Goldman Sachs (http://www.politico.eu/article/jose-manuel-barroso-to-work-for-goldman-sachs-european-commission/)

The 'magic' revolving door:
Mario Draghi: Goldman Sachs => European Central Bank - President, José Manuel Barroso: Goldman Sachs <= European Commission chief

Speaking of Goldman Sachs:
Did big U.S. banks contribute to the financial crisis in Greece? (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/25/AR2010022502183.html)
The question is rhetorical. Of course they did. Greece is the lever used for weakening the Euro and Goldman Sachs one of the main players.

The goal:
Hedge Funds Try 'Career Trade' Against Euro (http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703795004575087741848074392)
"This is an opportunity...to make a lot of money," says Hans Hufschmid, a former senior Salomon Brothers executive who now runs GlobeOp Financial Services SA, a hedge-fund administrator in London and New York.

Conclusion:
The past and present of people like Mario Monti or Mario Draghi is no secret.
Arousing question - how is it possible that such people got hoisted into important functions within the EU???

To me the EU looks more and more like an ox led through a bearing race. In the future it might share the fate of such an ox ...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-07-09, 16:34:23
Probably most of us remember the hysteria about alleged Russian subs in Sweden's territorial waters.
It took some time till the truth managed to surface.
It was a German sub. (source (http://www.sz-online.de/nachrichten/deutsches-u-boot-verirrt-sich-nach-schweden-3439313.html), source (https://www.ovb-online.de/politik/deutsches-u-boot-abwegen-6556676.html))
However still no mention in the main German propaganda outlets about this (staged) incident.
The desinformation campaigns of the cold war have been successfully reactivated.
Déjà vu - during the 80thies, the Pentagon (in agreement with Sweden's military) has sent Italian subs in Swedish territorial waters in order to point the fingers at the Soviets and to create panic and willingness among the Swede for a NATO membership.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-07-09, 17:24:38
Here's a case of a real Russian submarine caught/stranded in Swedish waters, on film https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=481.msg28714#msg28714

Finns have had more issues with Russian subs than Swedes, but they complain less. They are more cautious with their immediate neighbour.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-07-09, 23:01:52
José Manuel Barroso to work for Goldman Sachs
Traitors always have a bright future these days. Specially with Americans, Russians don't pay so well - it was always their problem.
People like that one used to be simply defenestrated around here.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-07-10, 01:54:45
There was in fact no proof it was a Russian submarine.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-07-10, 22:23:05
And the winner is

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FJGYjTKo.png&hash=9990dce4be569dbedfcf54f38d021faa" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/JGYjTKo.png)

Congrats Portugal  :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-07-11, 10:57:54
Portugal rules. Congratulations!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-07-11, 13:04:20
First time too, I understand? Go Portugal!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-07-12, 16:32:42
By the way, what is your team? China?
Probably the one that wins...
Since childhood I have only had one national team as a favourite, the only national team in my opinion it is worth supporting, and it has done pretty well lately. For Euro 2016 it had had these wins, draws and losses:

Turkey, Latvia, Netherlands, Czechia, Kazakhstan, Czechia, Netherlands, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Turkey, Portugal, Hungary, Austria, England, France. 

It also won over the tournament winner, a consolation for not advancing to the semi-final. 


Portugal almost achieved a perfect stealth win, that is not winning a single game in regular time, but still winning the tournament, had it not been for that win over Wales.

Here's the updated chart: 

Team: won against : lost against (in regular time)
Poland: Ukraine, Northern Ireland : nobody
Wales: Slovakia, Russia, Belgium : England, Portugal
Belgium: Ireland, Sweden, Hungary : Italy, Wales
Germany: Ukraine, Northern Ireland, Slovakia : France
Italy: Belgium, Sweden, Spain : Ireland 
France: Romania, Albania, Ireland, Iceland, Germany :  nobody
Iceland: Austria, England : France
Portugal: Wales : nobody
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-07-13, 10:17:01
Rossini's Barber of Seville (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Barber_of_Seville) is probably the most acquaint barber.
Now Europe has its new barber making headlines.
It is Hollande's barber of Paris. (http://www.thelocal.fr/20160713/hollandes-private-barber-on-10k-a-month) :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-07-15, 06:55:48
Another attack on France. Nice attack: Dozens killed during Bastille Day celebrations (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36800730)

And here's a totally random and unrelated history lesson. Why border lines drawn with a ruler in WW1 still rock the Middle East (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-25299553)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-07-15, 21:42:21
Military putsch in Turkey.
The Turkish General Staff has just announced that it is seizing power.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-07-15, 22:56:42
The times they are a-changin...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-07-16, 07:51:47
Military putsch in Turkey.
That little half-assed attempt is already over. That country should never be considered Europe.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fichef.bbci.co.uk%2Flive-experience%2Fcps%2F512%2Fcpsprodpb%2Fvivo%2Flive%2Fimages%2F2016%2F7%2F16%2F355cb19d-30ed-41cb-9778-c82f6f426134.jpg&hash=d0657c69eab708117d3b84258985cb17" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/512/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2016/7/16/355cb19d-30ed-41cb-9778-c82f6f426134.jpg)


The Nice attack was immediately branded jihadist terrorism by the President and Prime Minister of France, with a call to increase the war efforts in Syria, but it actually looks like doings of a lone frustrated Tunisian. A single vehicle can do such horrific damage. Is it written somewhere how fast he was driving? Likely slow.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-07-16, 10:16:29
That little half-assed attempt is already over.
Interesting is the timing of the attempted putsch - quite after Erdogan was seeking to normalize relations with Russia , Israel and Syria (Assad).

The Nice attack was immediately branded jihadist terrorism by the President and Prime Minister of France, with a call to increase the war efforts in Syria, but it actually looks like doings of a lone frustrated Tunisian.
It's more convenient to blame jihadists than to adress the social bomb which the poor banlieues are...
As for the war efforts in Syria, like the military interventions in Libya or Mali, they are all disguised (self-made war on terror by destabilizing entire regions) attemts to secure natural ressources. Only problem of Hollande, France can hardly afford such military adventures in the long term.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-07-16, 11:25:25
You are very right there ersi about Turkey. The place is a mess.

A country where a broadcasting station can be shut down and journalists jailed a newspaper taken over by the government for them all being anti-President?? What that same government has been doing to one group of people in the country too is a disgrace and killing innocent people inside the place.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-07-16, 11:29:18
We're living decisive times, the Nice attack and the Turkish attempt of coup d'etat are more related than what people can think. Both are pieces of the process that will lead to the finish of our freedoms.

Thousands of opinion makers are already writing that we should think if it is possible to maintain our freedoms while facing the current menaces and that's obviously the first step in the way for totalitarian regimes all over Europe. For our safety, as usual, and with no option for rebellion - Nice and Turkey, both sides of the same coin.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-07-17, 01:15:41
Depends on each country and we have already taken a step to protect ours.......
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-07-17, 06:27:42
Swedish authorities are totally enthusiastic about adding American borderguards to Sweden's main international airport to check up on people boarding American flights. Of course the borderguards would be armed and they would have the right to exercise their American rights on Swedish soil.

http://www.swedavia.se/arlanda/om-stockholm-arlanda-airport/om-flygplatsen/preclearance/
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-07-17, 08:39:38
Swedish authorities are totally enthusiastic about adding American borderguards to Sweden's main international airport to check up on people boarding American flights. Of course the borderguards would be armed and they would have the right to exercise their American rights on Swedish soil.
Do the American borderguards speak Swedish or the air passenger has to speak English?

:) BTW - how the begin of a conversation between a DND vet and an American borderguard could sound like:
Borderguard: "What's the reason for your flight to the USA, sir?"
DND veteran: "Just a visit to the ex-colonies over the pond to convince myself how miserable they perform, sir.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-07-17, 13:32:03
Of course the borderguards would be armed and they would have the right to exercise their American rights on Swedish soil.
Did you read the link Ersi posted? "The objective of having a US border entry checkpoint at Stockholm Arlanda is to make travel easier for passengers."
Now you know that you travel easier if subjecting to American guards.

Then a description of the process follows. The general idea is to explain that being stopped and interrogated by guards it's an experience even better than sex that you should be thankful for.

Are the Swedish on LSD?? This is really worrying.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-07-17, 19:05:33
American border guards in Sweden?  Active demonstration at being poodles!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-07-17, 21:51:35
Never, ever trust the Swedish. What a bunch of idiots.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-07-19, 06:19:54
When you consider the numbers getting into th ex-colonies from Me-he-co I wouldn't depend on them as guards.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-07-20, 22:28:00
we have already taken a step to protect ours.......
The only thing you've done so far is to finish with your freedoms inside the European Union.

Now on, you'll get in the queue together with the Burundi citizens to show your passport. In case you have an entry Visa of course.
And don't speak too loud, we don't accept such behavior to the third world people.

I really like this Brexit.

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-07-21, 03:25:57
we have already taken a step to protect ours.......
The only thing you've done so far is to finish with your freedoms inside the European Union.

Now on, you'll get in the queue together with the Burundi citizens to show your passport. In case you have an entry Visa of course.
And don't speak too loud, we don't accept such behavior to the third world people.

I really like this Brexit.


Would you consider them 3rd world before or after Scotland and N. Ireland leave the UK? :D
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-07-21, 12:36:45
Swedish authorities are totally enthusiastic about adding American borderguards to Sweden's main international airport to check up on people boarding American flights. Of course the borderguards would be armed and they would have the right to exercise their American rights on Swedish soil.

Old news, I posted this aaaages ago. Not only America, hopefully Arlanda will eventually be a Chinese outpost as well, though that is a work in progress: Now Stockholm Arlanda Airport will be more like China (http://www.swedavia.com/about-swedavia/press/news/now-stockholm-arlanda-airport-will-be-more-like-china/#gref)

There is a rivalry between Stockholm Arlanda, Oslo Gardermoen, Copenhagen Kastrup, and Helsinki Vantaa airports to catch the Transatlantic and Eurasian traffic. The Nordic countries are in the periphery of Europe, but through the magic of spherical geometry closer to both Northeast America and Northeast Asia. The shortest route from Mumbai, India to New York, USA is through Helsinki, Finland. 

Hopefully in time the Nordic countries will be a little bit of America, a little bit of China/Korea/Japan, and with a whiff of India. 
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-07-21, 15:14:20
Swedish authorities are totally enthusiastic about adding American borderguards to Sweden's main international airport to check up on people boarding American flights. Of course the borderguards would be armed and they would have the right to exercise their American rights on Swedish soil.

Old news, I posted this aaaages ago. Not only America, hopefully Arlanda will eventually be a Chinese outpost as well, though that is a work in progress: Now Stockholm Arlanda Airport will be more like China (http://www.swedavia.com/about-swedavia/press/news/now-stockholm-arlanda-airport-will-be-more-like-china/#gref)
Yes, this is ages-old news, reoccurring every other year or so, to prepare the population for what the masterminds have masterminded. Also ages-old is your attitude that it's all totally positive and best for the people. It isn't. The heads of govts will negotiate deals over the heads of the people. The deals will be skewed and asymmetric. Some common concepts will be reinterpreted to suit certain big players. For example, when introducing visa freedom between EU and US, visa freedom came to mean a sort of visa (a background check, a fee, an application for a term-limited permit to cross the border) for EU citizens who enter the US, while it means perfectly ordinary visa freedom (no fee, no application) for the citizens of the US. And in the process, biometric passport became a requirement to the EU citizens, but not to US citizens. See where this is going?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-07-22, 07:48:15
The US passports are biometric. That the US and other governments and private companies keep their people under surveillance is an orthogonal issue.

I have no problem with the US or China getting a little piece of Sweden, that is not so different from an embassy. Neither do I have any problems with my new homeland becoming a global country.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-07-22, 08:04:12
The US passports are biometric.
New passports are. Old passports were not, and the EU did not require new passports at the time of signing the deal, while the US required new passports from EU citizens (maybe not of the "old" EU countries, but I very well know the specific terms between my own country and the US).

That the US and other governments and private companies keep their people under surveillance is an orthogonal issue.
You are right if you are talking about govts and companies keeping their own people (i.e. people within their own jurisdiction) under surveillance. But I am talking about a country/company obtaining authority over people in another jurisdiction asymmetrically, i.e. there is no mutuality or no return value to it, the benefits and powers are all skewed towards one centre.

I have no problem with the US or China getting a little piece of Sweden, that is not so different from an embassy. Neither do I have any problems with my new homeland becoming a global country.
How about your local govt powers being eroded and your country becoming a puppet, a province or a colony? Enlighten me, link to a plan to introduce Swedish border guards at JFK or EWR.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-07-22, 09:06:49
How about your local govt powers being eroded and your country becoming a puppet, a province or a colony? Enlighten me, link to a plan to introduce Swedish border guards at JFK or EWR.
If a European government wanted their own border guards at  Mccarran International Airport  (https://www.mccarran.com/) I don't see much of a problem with that. In fact, they'll be better at checking a citizen of that country's credentials than an American guard and maybe even less likely to falsely detain him. Further, it would eliminate language misunderstandings between the traveler and guards.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-07-22, 23:00:49
You all submit to the New Order.
Clowns and traitors to the human race.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-07-26, 14:20:10
Dutch men and Latvian women are tallest, says BBC.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-36888541

The average height is given as 183, but I actually remember it as 185 from over a decade ago. Different samples I suppose. (I'm 191.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-07-27, 23:14:24
Priests are beheaded inside churches in France while the idiots of this world discusses sociological and pseudo political hallucinations to cover their cowardliness.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-07-28, 15:14:44
Priests are beheaded inside churches in France
How many? I must have missed that since I know only about one.

while the idiots of this world discusses sociological and pseudo political hallucinations to cover their cowardliness.
You are perfectly right sir.
Let's bomb Iraq, let's bomb Afghanistan, let's bomb Libya, let's bomb Syria, let's bomb everything that doesn't meet our high moral and ethic standards.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-07-28, 22:51:58
How many? I must have missed that since I know only about one.

You are perfectly right sir.
Let's bomb Iraq, let's bomb Afghanistan, let's bomb Libya, let's bomb Syria, let's bomb everything that doesn't meet our high moral and ethic standards.
Your time will come. You'll be just another coward beheaded.
What an idiot.


Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-07-29, 11:02:44
So what do you propose?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-07-29, 21:34:35
Don't think that poor French priest so dastardly done in was not decapitated Belfrager. Stabbed and throat cut by those dastardly Islamist nut jobs. A damn shame and everywhere Islam goes the columns of killers come too.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-07-29, 23:28:09
Don't think that poor French priest so dastardly done in was not decapitated Belfrager. Stabbed and throat cut by those dastardly Islamist nut jobs. A damn shame and everywhere Islam goes the columns of killers come too.
We don't need your sympathy protestant.
I know much better than you what happened exactly and I have no obligation to find the right english word to describe it.

Pope Francis have already spoke about it, read his words. We don't listen to protestants.
Any Christian these times has the obligation of being a revolutionary, His Holiness said.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-07-30, 19:24:46
Baloney Belfrager he did not have his head cut off and if you are miffed about a Protestant being concerned about the poor man then tells us all something very practical! As for that would-be comment from your old white socks that would not surprise me as it is historically of note that 4 countries in Europe which had dictatorships all had big RC traditions. Most of the top 3rd Reich people from your tradition as well! Then throw in the hard truth that the Vatican issued Papal passports to legions of fleeing Nazis, SS and Gestapo people and showed the reason why there were so many German exiles in South America thanks to your Pope. Meanwhile I still feel sad about what happened to that priest in the community he was in. In hard terms a more Christian stance and No Surrender!  :P
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-07-31, 21:41:20
Go sleep rjhowie, you're just babbling.





Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-08-01, 00:23:32
Thought you might come up with some daft because what I said IS historically true and included your dictatorship. When an RC bishop in the 3rd Reich made negative comment about the Nazi party and the Gestapo wanted him dealt with your RC Hitler stopped them as he did not want to upset the Church.  One of the concentration camps in wartime Yugoslavia had a Monseigneur as commandant. Tens of thousands of Serbs were forced to become RC's and others wiped out. Hitler, Goebells, Himmler, Goering, etc were all from your tradition. Because you maybe (?) didn't know of the Vatican passports given to fleeing Nazis in 1945 makes that okay, eh?? It has been said that that wee pest the late John Paul worked in that department at the time. Even if he didn't it was still a shocking indictment. Nice try but when it comes to things that cannot be dealt with by you we get nonsense.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-08-01, 08:35:42
Even if he didn't it was still a shocking indictment.
"It's the seriousness of the charge..." :(
You'll always believe what you want to, Howie: It's how you're built, crooked, twisted. Truth and evidence don't matter to you, only your bizarre way of viewing the world.

The so-called "refugee" crisis can be seen in two different lights: Christian charity or multicultural open borders doctrinaire liberalism... I believe the last vestige of the former is the correct one. But that won't last.
The Crusades were about re-taking the Holy Lands, ya know? And the last hundred years or so, on the Islamists' part, have been about re-establishing the caliphate. Your Empire cocked that up, and then folded... They left it to others to deal with.
It bothers you greatly that America replaced the British Empire -- would you have preferred the Soviet Union or Red China?
(A united Europe has always been a pipe-dream: Opiate of the elites, eh? :) )
But that's too complicated a question for you... You still want to fight the Protestant/Papist wars of your silly part of the world!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-08-02, 00:24:42
A Yank calling people from elsewhere living elsewhere lesser?   :lol:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-08-02, 08:43:36
This RC vs Protestant argument is ridiculous. You putting on an orange sash to march in celebration of a foreign prince conquering your country in the 1600's because he was a protestant even more so. Maybe you were right that the Papacy issued passports that allowed Nazis to escape to South America. So what? That was seventy years ago. I don't see Pope Francis doing anything similar.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-08-02, 19:44:23
Let's play "Spot Mr. Howie".





While we wait, we could always listen to @Belfrager 's choice of music:

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-08-02, 22:39:57
Only problem with that short extract colonel is you were a bit late as I was up at the front starting part with the County Grand Lodge of Glasgow so you missed me.  When I was appointed a Magistrate years ago that body looking after the 20 Districts and 181 Glasgow lodges (not Belfrager man!) made me a life long Honorary depute County Grand Master of Glasgow! Our area is not the only Annual @Walk' to mark the battle of the Boyne. There are 4 wide areas of here - Greater Glasgow - West Coast - east Coast - Central Scotland. Gets me a free meal as well!

Next month in a western Glasgow housing estate they have an annual parade to remember the Battle of the Diamond in 1795 that created the Order after it. The County Grand Master of Glasgow will be there as will the Grand Master of Scotland and I will be doing the opening service as always do and speak strongly from the platform of course. Now how lucky can those two men be sharing a platform with me?!  :yes:

ps. Belfrager will be welcome....
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-08-03, 06:05:51
While we wait, we could always listen to @Belfrager (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?action=profile;u=4) 's choice of music [...]
Suits me fine, Bach/Gounod! (And some may well remember the Gounod composition that was -ably!- performed for the Alfred Hitchcock shows! And -dare I mention it? :)- the second movement of the 2nd Brandenburg Concerto that Buckley used for his Firing Line program...?)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-08-04, 17:47:49
London to get coffee and fellatio cafe (http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/london-to-get-coffee-and-fellatio-cafe-a7170266.html)
Quote
If successful, the founder is hoping to roll them out across the UK.
In case it will be successful, wonder what will come next - a cunnilingus cafe for women?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-08-06, 15:22:38
So what do you propose?
Stop faking that the western world is fighting back. It isn't.

In Arabic, Al Khaeda can be used with three different meanings, the Base, The Network and the Idea. The base is already spread, the network is a fluid one where cells are independent and ready for action, the only thing that can be done is to behead the Idea.
What do you see that has been made to destroy the Idea? nothing, absolutely nothing.
Do it.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-08-07, 11:04:57
Meanwhile I found this article (http://katehon.com/article/brexit-gateway-continued-british-world-domination) I'm sure it will delight my English friends... :)

Just a teaser...
Quote
Thus, Brexit is a gateway through which Great Britain attempts to  remain master of the world. The US and EU, in this sense, are only giants with not much in the way of brains, who place themselves in the position of small British pawns to secure its mastery. The US became "a creature" who, for the sake of Great Britain, is doing the dirty jobs around the globe, military coups, small and big wars alike, hybrid wars, asymmetric wars, training and supporting terrorist networks etc., and EU is a "clown" in the British yard who should be used as a base for NATO troops in the pending conflict with Russia. Only Great Britain keeps its "hands clean" from everything!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-08-09, 00:02:20
Bunkum (as usual).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-08-12, 09:56:43
Gay U.S. ambassador is a reality TV star in Denmark (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/08/11/gay-united-states-ambassador-reality-tv-star-denmark/88460206/)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cygg0cZZqnA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UwT-OOZPMU
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-08-13, 12:52:18
A good example of the worst happening in Europe.

Anyway, diplomacy was always a refugee for gays to get a career.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-08-13, 18:33:34
I would let the queers volunteer for the Mars project.  ;)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-08-16, 08:26:21
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FGP4EpKj.jpg&hash=b5eeffcb4f775ada9d4d9c88d1b00ea2" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/GP4EpKj.jpg)
At a somehow strange initiative (nobody asked them), Russia sent two magnificent Beriev jet seaplanes to help combat the fires in Portugal.
Also must be referred that Morocco equally sent two Canadairs and Italy sent one more.

Europe sent nothing. The Anglo Saxon plan to destroy the South continues (and starts generating quite innovative alliances...).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2016-08-16, 16:41:37
Let Portugal burn. Better yet, cut it loose from Spain and set it adrift.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-08-16, 20:40:15
hope it wouldn't drift here to GB we have enough immigrants. Maybe Europe gave a miss helping due to too much in the handouts corner?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-08-17, 21:43:12
An American and a traitor to his own people, nothing that belongs to Europe.
Ohh California is burning? let the shit hole burn entirely.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-08-18, 18:53:01
In London, they've figured out how to produce convincing-looking fake handwriting.

Paper: http://visual.cs.ucl.ac.uk/pubs/handwriting/handwriting_visual_main.pdf

Quote
We propose an algorithm that renders a desired input string in an author's
handwriting. An annotated sample of the author's handwriting is required;
the system is flexible enough that historical documents can usually be used
with only a little extra effort. Experiments show that our glyph-centric ap-
proach, with learned parameters for spacing, line thickness, and pressure,
produces novel images of handwriting that look hand-made to casual ob-
servers, even when printed on paper.

Software: https://github.com/thaines/helit/tree/master/handwriting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mAKZaOPbBo

Edit: typo
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-08-19, 11:09:02
Interesting. When I was a child, we were trained to write as close to a printed book as possible. Now, they want machines to write like humans.
Back then, we wanted humans to perform as perfectly as machines. Now, machines get human weaknesses.
Machines were our ideal. Now, we are the ideal of machines. What a shift!
We've always been perfect. And we didn't know that.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-08-20, 09:38:50
Perhaps some of you would be interested in what I read last week while feeding the cats.

Quote
Congolese Negroes: Beautiful But Stupid?
Investigating Belgian Colonial Attitudes through Reactions to the Congolese Village in the 1885 Antwerp World Expo

Thanks to its low-frequency, high-quality content, the newsfeed of the Vlaamse Erfgoedbibliotheek (Flemish Heritage Library) is among my favorite library feeds. Where else are you going to find out about awesome stuff like this newly digitized 19th century book about the 1885 Antwerp Universal Expo? My attention was particularly drawn to the fact that the 1885 expo featured a living Congolese display village.

According to the few paragraphs dedicated to the village, this living exhibition was the first of its kind. Exactly what is meant by that remains unclear, keeping in mind that shows like Buffalo Bill's Wild West certainly precede it. Several Congolese-style huts were constructed for the Congolese people meant to inhabit the exhibit. Following those introductory words it truly starts to get interesting, with a description of the people.

Continued here: http://fransdejonge.com/2016/08/congolese-negroes-beautiful-but-stupid/
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-08-20, 10:57:51
Machines were our ideal. Now, we are the ideal of machines. What a shift!
It's not a shift Barulheira, it's manipulation and brainwashing.
Increasingly people must perform in a machine-like matrix, zeros or ones as the only result, no options, specialization as the only possibility, in a mix of computer and insect like biology.

Machines limitations are being used to justify the absence of moral at human behavior and decisions.
There's absolutely no progression, just a gigantic human race formatting.
I share not your optimism.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-08-22, 11:53:13
I share not your optimism.
That was not optimistic. It was just a perception.
I, personally, prefer machines to do their jobs, and us to do ours.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-08-22, 22:21:05
I, personally, prefer machines to do their jobs, and us to do ours.
Machines have not "their" jobs. People have.
Machines are not entitled to be treated as persons by way of using "their".
Never compare machine's "work" with people's work. Not the same nature.

A computer doesn't "works", a computer simply fires people. While hiring imbeciles.
I know personally many "project managers" at IT jobs. Imbeciles, the post modernist slaves.

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-08-24, 16:53:22
No doubt, Le Grande Nation takes its fight against terror seriously.

Louis de Funès, the Policeman from Saint-Tropez (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troops_of_St._Tropez) reloaded.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heise.de%2Ftp%2Fbild%2F49%2F49219%2F49219_1x.jpg&hash=c5da4ab0c1133f2443a5ff74b73e3a94" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.heise.de/tp/bild/49/49219/49219_1x.jpg)

More than 50 years later the French have now their armed "Burkini-Cops" (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3754395/Wealthy-Algerian-promises-pay-penalty-Muslim-woman-fined-France-wearing-burkini.html) who run a tight ship on French beaches. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-08-24, 21:32:42
Louis de Funès
No one here knows who was Louis de Funès.
Much much better than his American counter part, the grotesque Jerry Lewis.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-08-25, 12:39:57
More than 50 years later the French have now their armed "Burkini-Cops" (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3754395/Wealthy-Algerian-promises-pay-penalty-Muslim-woman-fined-France-wearing-burkini.html) who run a tight ship on French beaches.  :)
Weird, their faces are visible so who cares how much or little they wear?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-08-25, 14:52:42
Weird,

To sum it up - opportunism and disrespect toward another culture group coming from a former colonial power.

BTW,
beach fun of the twenties - US-District Washington D.C.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn2.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-625399-galleryV9-ohdt-625399.jpg&hash=dbb85a2c27c8ede38195b7c684a65476" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn2.spiegel.de/images/image-625399-galleryV9-ohdt-625399.jpg)

or Atlantic City of the thirties
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn3.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-1040336-galleryV9-hhoq-1040336.jpg&hash=47997baf783af8d148f464c939524913" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn3.spiegel.de/images/image-1040336-galleryV9-hhoq-1040336.jpg)

or today's burkini
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn2.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-604589-galleryV9-fkcg-604589.jpg&hash=785ab933225868339909f4f1930fd5cc" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn2.spiegel.de/images/image-604589-galleryV9-fkcg-604589.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-08-26, 06:11:01
To sum it up - opportunism and disrespect toward another culture group coming from a former colonial power.
Only disrespecting Western culture is acceptable? :p

Btw,
http://www.theexmuslim.com/2016/08/24/burkini-bikini-false-equivalence-disproportionate-outrage/
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-08-26, 09:10:34
Only disrespecting Western culture is acceptable? :p
Has anybody claimed that it is?
Since nobody did, wonder what the goal of your question is?

BTW,
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn3.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-1040632-breitwandaufmacher-degq-1040632.jpg&hash=a494bd2f6095a6b370bb6289a0a8852d" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn3.spiegel.de/images/image-1040632-breitwandaufmacher-degq-1040632.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-08-26, 09:30:05
Louis de Funès
No one here knows who was Louis de Funès.
Much much better than his American counter part, the grotesque Jerry Lewis.
I know, even though Pierre Richard was more current during my era.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-08-26, 10:15:23
Has anybody claimed that it is?
Ah, the subtle difference between claiming and doing. Gotcha.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-08-26, 10:17:28
Louis de Funès
No one here knows who was Louis de Funès.
Much much better than his American counter part, the grotesque Jerry Lewis.
I know, even though Pierre Richard was more current during my era.

Oh please, Funès movies were and are repeated on TV all the time. That's like saying you don't know Laurel & Hardy. ;)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-08-26, 10:59:55
Anyone claiming burkinis are disrespectful?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-08-26, 12:05:49
Wouldn't matter if they were. I reject the premise that culture needs to be respected (except in the weaker sense of being a member of polite society). I'm just poking fun at the notion that it's disrespect that's the problem, especially when coupled with such major distasteful disrespect of our own hard-fought freedoms. Or just the general context of disrespect toward American imperialist culture. ;)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-08-26, 14:31:14
Are the nuns below also showing their disrespect for our own hard-fought freedoms?
Would they also get harassed and fined by "burkini cops"?

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Farchive.li%2F3urB6%2F4f0ac7b7eb0d4cc56fcd75974980e44c4523be25.jpg&hash=43e4d5d86ba85d9b37b2542e54cb4d88" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://archive.li/3urB6/4f0ac7b7eb0d4cc56fcd75974980e44c4523be25.jpg)

As for the Daily Mail article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3754395/Wealthy-Algerian-promises-pay-penalty-Muslim-woman-fined-France-wearing-burkini.html), that women harassed by four cops wasn't even wearing a burkini. You can take a closer look at the pictures. ;)
She was wearing leggins, a turquoise top and a turquoise kerchief. Ergo, the scene is even 'weirder', so to speak...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-08-26, 14:40:33
I reject the premise that culture needs to be respected
Well... my premise is that anything should be respected - unless there's a reason not to.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-08-26, 16:49:00
Are the nuns below also showing their disrespect for our own hard-fought freedoms?
I was talking about you, but yes. Their male-sanctioned form of worship disrespects the hard-fought rights of beguines to practice religious devotion in their own, female manner. But so what if they are? That's no cause for legal action. It's irrelevant whether anyone's being disrespectful of anything, which was my point. ;)

Well... my premise is that anything should be respected - unless there's a reason not to.
If I say I respect Ayaan Hirsi Ali I mean something quite different than if I say I respect Trump. The default form of mutual respect in polite society lies somewhere in between. But only the Ayaan variety is true respect.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-08-26, 18:17:55
Eastern Europe wants an EU army.

http://mobile.lemonde.fr/international/article/2016/08/26/l-idee-d-une-armee-europeenne-fait-son-chemin-en-europe-centrale_4988611_3210.html
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-08-26, 19:29:01
Their male-sanctioned form of worship disrespects the...
I'm just afraid they are punishing the victims.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-08-26, 20:01:32
Eastern Europe wants an EU army.

http://mobile.lemonde.fr/international/article/2016/08/26/l-idee-d-une-armee-europeenne-fait-son-chemin-en-europe-centrale_4988611_3210.html
The far right in the Vysegrad 4 is quite to virulently Anti-American, just like the moderate right is pro-American. It's a useful litmus test,  bit like if a far-right group hates Jews more than Muslims,  it's probably Nazi influenced.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-08-27, 06:57:30
The far right in the Vysegrad 4 is quite to virulently Anti-American, just like the moderate right is pro-American.
Is this only a characteristic of the Vysegrad 4 or applies to other European countries too?
And what about the left (far or moderate), assuming that they still exist?

BTW, Mr. Shock and Awe aka Donald Rumsfeld comes to my mind. He was highly praysing New Europe.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-08-27, 09:21:58
Their male-sanctioned form of worship disrespects the...
I'm just afraid they are punishing the victims.
I heard on the French news that the ban's been overturned in court, so we can sleep tight tonight.  :cheers:

BTW, Mr. Shock and Awe aka Donald Rumsfeld comes to my mind. He was highly praysing New Europe.
Has the Bush administration ever appeared like they knew what they were doing?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-08-27, 10:04:27
[
BTW, Mr. Shock and Awe aka Donald Rumsfeld comes to my mind. He was highly praysing New Europe.
Has the Bush administration ever appeared like they knew what they were doing?
Plannings for Iraq's invasion started already under Clinton's presidency. Bush was only the perfect idiot to fulfill that plan.
Besides, the whole 'free' corporate media was behind Bush. Neither can I recall of any namable opposition on the Democrats part.
So blaming today just a few people of the Bush administration comes handy -  hypocrisy at its best.
I assume you aren't such naive to believe that the USA is a banana republic where foreign policy and long-term geostrategic interests are changing with each President. :left:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-08-27, 10:16:09
Of course they don't; Americans are always pressuring Europeans to go to war. But insulting your traditional allies out in the open is still a little different. :P What they are to blame for is the public relations failure, in other words.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-08-27, 11:30:07
But insulting your traditional allies out in the open is still a little different. :P What they are to blame for is the public relations failure, in other words.
A public relations failure ?

Goebbels called it propaganda. We call it today, public relations. Two different terms definig the exactly same thing.
So what matters for you? Propaganda (the phrasing) or its goal?
To put it more directly - would you prefer to be warned in round terms or to be flattered before getting your ass kicked?

BTW, you seem to be somehow disgusted at the idea of Trump as US president. Would you prefer a charming Victoria Nuland (f*ck the EU) as US foreign minister instead?
(No, you don't have to answer this since it's merely a rhetorical question ;) )
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-08-27, 12:28:26
So what matters for you? Propaganda (the phrasing) or its goal?
To put it more directly - would you prefer to be warned in round terms or to be flattered before getting your ass kicked?
What matters is to reach a form of consensus rather than just pushing through with your original vision. Old Bush and Clinton were capable of it. Consensus goes two ways. One is to make concessions, the other is to convince your partners to do so (PR/propaganda). If I understand you correctly you're saying that the Old Bush and Clinton administrations were just putting on a better show, but the show has consequences beyond European perception of the US.

Speaking of propaganda, The Century of the Self is an interesting documentary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ3RzGoQC4s

Would you prefer a charming Victoria Nuland (f*ck the EU) as US foreign minister instead?
Yes, of course I do. Fuck Victoria Nuland, but fuck Trump more. <3<3<3 dictatorships coupled with integral intellectual negligence is much worse than +_+ EU. That's basic pragmatism.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-08-27, 13:45:04
So blaming today just a few people of the Bush administration comes handy -  hypocrisy at its best.
I assume you aren't such naive to believe that the USA is a banana republic where foreign policy and long-term geostrategic interests are changing with each President.  :left:
I agree.
Bush, Obama or the next one will maintain the same situation regarding Europe, the undercover war in order to never allow Europe to regain its original status, that's the US first priority.
If necessary and when, it will be shown more up to the surface but it doesn't depends on the President, it depends on their Pentagon analysts.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-08-27, 16:35:59
What matters is to reach a form of consensus rather than just pushing through with your original vision. Old Bush and Clinton were capable of it. Consensus goes two ways. One is to make concessions, the other is to convince your partners to do so (PR/propaganda). If I understand you correctly you're saying that the Old Bush and Clinton administrations were just putting on a better show, but the show has consequences beyond European perception of the US.
Unfortunately you didn't understood me correctly. Neither did I imply such a thing nor do I believe it.
Old Bush's or Clinton's show were neither better nor worse than that of W. Bush, Jr. or Obama.
Only thing that changed through the decades were the given conditions. Namely, we have moved from a bipolar world to a monopolar one. In PR terms it's called "The American Century". Mission almost accomplished.
In a bipolar world you are forced to make more concessions to your (call it) allies or vassals.
In a monopolar world where you are the only superpower left, you can afford to strenghten the leash. My way or the highway.
That's basic pragmatism in politics and geostrategic thinking. ;)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-08-27, 17:55:34
Even if there's some truth to it, long term that's not pragmatism but stupidity. You want to extend your empire by having others join or comply willingly, not through force. Otherwise you'll reap what you sow.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-08-27, 18:23:29
Even if there's some truth to it, long term that's not pragmatism but stupidity. You want to extend your empire by having others join or comply willingly, not through force. Otherwise you'll reap what you sow.
No. You will reap what you sow either way.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-08-28, 00:44:06
Europe is fine for holidays and been there three times over two countries but politically it is a basket case.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-08-28, 07:00:47
Has EuroDisney become the only part of Europe that the rest of the world takes seriously...?

If Trump wins, it's quite possible that Europe will need to fend for itself. If Clinton wins, it's quite possible that Europe will have just another European country to contend with... Which would you prefer? :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-08-28, 07:29:44
Europe is fine for holidays and been there three times
When visiting Europe what continent did you come from? :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-08-28, 07:58:32
Has EuroDisney become the only part of Europe that the rest of the world takes seriously...?
By "the rest of the world" do you mean the USA?
If Trump wins, it's quite possible that Europe will need to fend for itself.
Since you seem to be an 'expert' concerning Europe - whom is the USA defending Europe from?
ATM, I'm aware of a single country that threatens openly the EU (even so not military). Guess which country it is?
If Clinton wins, it's quite possible that Europe will have just another European country to contend with...
The USA has already injected a lot of dissens among European countries. We don't need another European country to contend with.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-08-28, 08:26:45
No. You will reap what you sow either way.
A pessimist, are we?  :D It's kinda weird that the idiom isn't more neutral though.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-08-28, 10:02:06
About the decision of a French court to suspend the burkini proibithion it seems that confusion spreads all over Europe.

Burkinis in the European beaches are not a personal decision of a women about what to wear but an imposition over women by a culture where women are stoned to death and treated as cattle.

The burkini is not a matter of fashion, it is a flag, the enemy's flag.

There's absolutely no personal choice whatsoever respecting the burkini. Besides totally ridiculous it is a menace and an insult to the European women.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-09-04, 18:15:57
Here's a consolation prize to krake. The sad story of Jörg Haider:

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rg_Haider
In 2000, Haider's Freedom Party unexpectedly won the 1999 parliamentary elections. After efforts by the runner-up, the ÖVP, to renew its coalition with the Social Democrats failed, the ÖVP reached an agreement with the FPÖ. Normally, Haider should have become chancellor. However, since he was deemed too controversial to be part of the government, let alone head it, he stepped aside in favour of ÖVP leader Wolfgang Schüssel.
I earlier said that Jörg Haider was forced to resign his premiership. I was wrong. He was forced to decline premiership under political pressure. The pressure continued from other EU member states, even though Haider had declined premiership:

Quote
The heads of government of the other fourteen EU members decided to cease cooperation with the Austrian government, as it was felt in many countries that the cordon sanitaire against coalitions with parties considered as right-wing extremists, which had mostly held in Western Europe since 1945, had been breached. For several months, other national leaders shunned diplomatic contacts with members of the Schüssel government. Supporters of the government often blamed social democrats and President Thomas Klestil for these sanctions, and questioned their loyalty to the country.

At the end of February 2000, Haider stepped down from the leadership of the Freedom Party. This was widely regarded as a cynical move to appease foreign criticism, as he appeared to continue to control the party from behind the scenes, with his successor, Susanne Riess-Passer, being only pro-forma in charge. Haider proclaimed that his move was just the fulfillment of his promise to Carinthian FPÖ voters he gave prior to the election that had been held in the same year.[18] Following analysis of the diplomatic sanctions, EU leaders came to believe that the measures were counterproductive and returned to normality in September 2000, even though the coalition remained unchanged.
I was born last century, so I remember stuff like this. Old enough to misremember and mess up details.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-09-04, 18:44:20
I was born last century, so I remember stuff like this.
Did you say last century? What a revelation :no:
Do we have here so many under age forum members which were born this century?
BTW, I'm much older than you. I was born last millenium. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-09-04, 21:32:59
The funny thing is that if Haider were the Austrian prime minister, Estonians would be considered as untermenshen by them.
As many others.

My dear Ersi, keep cool.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-09-05, 05:24:37
That's not a story how Jörg Haider is awesome (he isn't). It's an example how your EU partners can pull the rug from under you when elections have the wrong result or whatever.

Krake thinks that force doesn't exist. He thinks pulling the rug, isolation, sanctions etc. are "advice".
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-09-05, 23:18:25
Krake thinks that force doesn't exist. He thinks pulling the rug, isolation, sanctions etc. are "advice".
I know that and I agree entirely with you.

Krake is a complex character, he simultaneously supports and fights the same things.
The finished example of post modern Germans. They have a past and a future, they deny the past but work hard for building the exact  same future.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-09-06, 06:14:59
Krake is a complex character, he simultaneously supports and fights the same things.
The finished example of post modern Germans. They have a past and a future, they deny the past but work hard for building the exact  same future.
The underlying principle of (the best practice of - it's not always the best practice, unfortunately -) Estonian diplomacy is "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Said by, hmm, George Santayana... Who's that? Looks like another book I have to queue up for reading.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-09-06, 06:22:47
The funny thing is that if Haider were the Austrian prime minister, Estonians would be considered as untermenshen by them.
So you claim to know what Haider would think about Estonians if he would be alive. That's great.
I just wonder what he would think of you while reading your posts. :D
They have a past and a future,
We all have a past whereas I'm not quite as sure concerning the future...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-09-06, 06:33:35
Krake thinks that...
Aside from what you think to know about what krake is thinking:
Speaking of Haider - the official narrative regarding the circumstances of Haider's car accident has been received with much scepticism by most people, equally among those sharing his views and those who never did.
BTW, the same applies to Jürgen Möllemann's (FDP - Germany) fatal accident, except this time it wasn't a car accident.
Krake thinks that force doesn't exist. He thinks pulling the rug, isolation, sanctions etc. are "advice".
Don't expect the laws of physics changing anytime soon. Namely, for the earth orbiting the moon.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-09-06, 07:37:24
Namely, for the earth orbiting the moon.
I don't mean to butt into a conversation that I don't understand... But, of course, the earth does orbit the moon; they comprise an orbital system.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-09-06, 08:06:17
But, of course, the earth does orbit the moon
Did you touch any alcohol lately? :)
BTW (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit_of_the_Moon)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-09-06, 08:43:35
You don't understand the term, as defined by physics... But that's okay: I'm sure you think the earth revolves around the sun, too! (Or, perhaps, you think the sun and the planets revolve around the earth...)

These are relative relationships... Their meaning becomes particularized in various circumstances; you only know a few -- and you'd prefer to remain parochial: Only your viewpoint matters!
Good luck with that.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-09-06, 11:41:45
the earth orbiting the moon.
I understand what Krake meant. Everybody understands. But the replies are against the wording Krake used to express what he means - in order to promote self erudition.
Such pedantry is becoming more and more disgusting.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-09-06, 21:48:58
Disgusting?! :) A bit of an over-reaction, that, eh? (Or is that too pedantic an observation...?)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-09-07, 01:40:55
George Santayana... Who's that?
Harvard philosopher (among other things). He wrote his dissertation on Hermann Lotze, who taught -among others- Frege... You remember him? The fellow who revolutionized symbolic logic in 1879? (What can I say? Logic is an abiding interest of mine... :) )
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-09-08, 00:13:25
The erratic American is correct at a relativist, post modern way... (and he claims to be a conservative).
The Earth orbits the moon and the world orbits Oakdale.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-09-08, 01:06:25
:) 'Nuff said! And, yet, I'll say more... Both ersi and [iKrake[/i] quibble over words, when the situation for Estonia vis-à-vis Russia is important -- specially, to Estonia.
I'd sooner trust ersi's analysis, for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-09-12, 07:32:38
The far right in the Vysegrad 4 is quite to virulently Anti-American, just like the moderate right is pro-American.
Is this only a characteristic of the Vysegrad 4 or applies to other European countries too?
And what about the left (far or moderate), assuming that they still exist?

BTW, Mr. Shock and Awe aka Donald Rumsfeld comes to my mind. He was highly praysing New Europe.
It probably is more generally applicable (I would say it applies to Sweden to a lesser degree), but even generalising to the V4 is difficult, it's not a very uniform group. Czechia, Hungary and to a small degree Poland are significant others to Slovakia, but e.g. Czechs and Hungarians are barely aware that the other exists. Most or all of them have seen V4 as something almost imposed on them.  It's a useful imposition though, so it's survived for 25 years, and might survive for another 25.

Communists and their successors carry a grudge. Not only was the US the class enemy, it was a victorious one and that's much harder to bear. That goes for the pro-Soviet ones. The anti-Soviet "anti-imperialists" were often pro-China (and more cordial to the American imperialists), but being a pro-China communist also requires some serious ideological footwork. Particularly the former group (and ideological successors) have developed a certain schadenfreude where the US is concerned. They really, really want Trump to win. 

Social Democrats of all shapes and countries seem robustly pro-American everywhere, so yes, there might be a left mirror in this regard, but it isn't very surprising that the far left doesn't like what was seen as the lighthouse of capitalism. (Now, Social Democrats are hardly far left in any measure though.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-09-12, 09:21:29
being a pro-China communist also requires some serious ideological footwork. Particularly the former group (and ideological successors) have developed a certain schadenfreude where the US is concerned. They really, really want Trump to win.
...Be careful what you wish for... :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-09-12, 11:58:00
Social Democrats of all shapes and countries seem robustly pro-American everywhere,
Just for better understanding your reasoning - by robustly pro-American everywhere, you mean:
- sharing the idea of American exceptionalism and striving for a monopolar world?
- embracing the neoliberal economic doctrine where a deregulated market is the sacred warranty of social welfare and social justice?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-09-12, 12:00:25
...Be careful what you wish for...  :)
Absolutely. It's a misconception that the fall of America will benefit the rest of the world. On the contrary we would see more economical, security, social, political instability. 

Then again some communists might still hold onto a strategy of crisis maximization. If we just could let things get really, really bad, then after the unavoidable purgatory of deep prolonged social chaos the cadres would lead us to the new communist paradise.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-09-12, 12:20:55
Social Democrats of all shapes and countries seem robustly pro-American everywhere,
Just for better understanding your reasoning - by robustly pro-American everywhere, you mean:
- sharing the idea of American exceptionalism and striving for a monopolar world?
- embracing the neoliberal economic doctrine where a deregulated market is the sacred warranty of social welfare and social justice?

I assume that is what "America" represents to you.

American hegemony is a long-term impossibility. It's a resourceful nation, but it isn't that resourceful.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9b/1_AD_to_2008_AD_trends_in_%25_GDP_contribution_by_major_economies_of_the_world.png/1024px-1_AD_to_2008_AD_trends_in_%25_GDP_contribution_by_major_economies_of_the_world.png)

A peaceful, prosperous, democratic world is in the interest of social democrats. As long as the US agrees with these goals, a Trans-Atlantic cooperation would be mutually beneficial. 
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-09-12, 13:22:33
I assume that is what "America" represents to you.

Whatever you assume (you should know by now that I love guesswork), you didn't answer my questions.
Instead you are presenting a table of Angus Maddison incoherent to my questions.
Maybe you should consider a new career as politician. :)

As for your concluding final wisdom: "A peaceful, prosperous, democratic world is in the interest of social democrats."
The above could serve as an electoral slogan for any party, told by any politician of any spectrum (Clinton, Trump, Obama, Bush, Hollande, Le Pen, Sarkozy, Merkel, Gabriel, Putin, Xi Jinping,..., feel free to complete the list).

However, no answer is also an answer, so you don't have to come up with more tables. ;)

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-09-12, 23:55:29
There are no social democrats anymore, there are no christian democrats anymore, they all turned into neo pussys, clowns of a void  liberal keynesian mambo jambo.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-09-14, 01:29:22
I have doubts about America's long time global existence and well reminded of the clock that the colonel once put up showing the debt constantly rising.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-09-14, 08:53:00
So: In a thread titled "What's Going on in Europe" RJ continues to focus exclusively on the U.S.? Perhaps he's right: Without the U.S., there is no Europe... :) There'll be Russia, China -- and the mess that flows from the middle east, created by the Brits and the rest of the Europeans.
Or a new virulent Fascism. (Couldn't happen, eh? :) )

BTW: I mostly take this back immediately! We all make mistakes... :(
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-09-14, 11:35:59
There's no consensus about what exactly "Europe" means.
According to some, Europe is along our borders. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Guiana)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-09-15, 23:22:06
There's no consensus about what exactly "Europe" means.
According to some, Europe is along our borders. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Guiana)
Europe is all over the place. Even Chinese are turning Europeans.
Do North Americans represents the Sioux?
Do South Americans represents the Yanomami?

Americas are basically an European colony with the advantage of not having to feed them.
Of course give them so much liberty results in what the world can see.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-09-16, 06:23:28
oakdale you lot are in europe for corporate money making so do try and avoid being pompous. If you weren't run by Wall Street more of your own folk would not be suffering. Europe and the world would not come to a stop if you wonky system went under one day.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-09-17, 16:27:56
UK to veto EU 'defence union' (https://euobserver.com/institutional/135134)

Quote
British defence minister Michael Fallon has said the UK would veto the creation of EU military capabilities so long as it remained a member of the bloc.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-09-17, 18:00:18
A rival to NATO? Huh...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-09-17, 18:47:47
Britain has already vetoed similar plans in 2011 and 2013.
Hopefully it will be their last veto in the EU this time.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-09-18, 01:41:23
 :yes:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-09-18, 13:25:18
I wonder who would command such European common defense force...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-09-18, 19:43:11
Good question 'cause we are off, heehee!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-09-19, 15:28:38
Does it really matter?

EU countries not in NATO: Austria, Cyprus, Finland, Ireland, Malta and Sweden (Sweden and Finland are considering joining NATO together)

NATO countries not in EU:  Albania, Canada, Iceland, Norway, Turkey, USA, and maybe one day the UK  (Norway and Iceland are in the EEA)

Countries both in NATO and the EU: Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, United Kingdom,
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-09-20, 00:58:33
NATO another damn waste of time and so many of those countries in that thing which is just as bad as the EU.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-09-20, 01:26:04
I'd thought you were anti-Brexit... :) You know: The more masters the merrier?!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-09-20, 15:23:14
NATO another damn waste of time and so many of those countries in that thing which is just as bad as the EU.
What are your thoughts on your high-ranking official recently commenting that your lot are woefully underfunded?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-09-21, 02:25:20
He is NOT a high ranking offical he has retired smartie boy! I have always been a routine supporter of oiur excellent military side and boy do we oput your lot in the shade when it is parade time! Anyway we kept the minimum 2% moaned about by the US to the rest of NATO didn't we/ You lot spend far too much on the subject with hundreds of bases to cover the corporate greed lot. The bottom line is that a country needs what it has depending on what it wants or NEEDS to be involved in and that too has to be an aspect. Some things I could see a routine need to extend but considering the proportion your corner spends with so many suffering at home is not something to be proud of. My two brothers did army time and one finished up a Colour-Sergeant in the cracking Paras and I was proud of that and my late father was a sergeant in the Royal Signals. Proud of our uniformed people but we don't have an Empire to be looking after but you do -an international money one.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-09-21, 05:05:57
boy do we oput your lot in the shade when it is parade time!
In other words, playing "dress-up"...! :) Very useful. (Perhaps that was why you lost our Revolutionary War? Well, partly: Too many "political" generals and too little support at home; plus a CIC who didn't understand what he was doing...)
He is NOT a high ranking offical he has retired [...]
So: Once one retires his experience and expertise are flushed down the memory-hole, and his opinions no longer matter?
(When did you retire, RJ? :) )

BTW: Does your government spend more than ours on your poor, of which you have -as a percentage- as many or more than we? :(
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-09-21, 14:22:33
Quote
The International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) in The Hague has quietly cleared the late Serbian president, Slobodan Milosevic, of war crimes committed during the 1992-95 Bosnian war, including the massacre at Srebrenica.
more... (http://johnpilger.com/articles/provoking-nuclear-war-by-media)


Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-09-21, 16:13:11
Boy, talk about a horrible blog post. No links or anything. I assume he's talking about this: http://www.icty.org/x/cases/karadzic/tjug/en/160324_judgement.pdf

Troublingly, it does not quite include the quote "condemned ethnic cleansing." Sure, it's close enough for the distinction to be functionally irrelevant, but it doesn't inspire confidence in the author.

Quote from: Par. 3280
In March 1992, in a meeting with international representatives, Slobodan Milošević
described the situation in BiH as similar to "dynamite", and if anyone favoured one of the parties,
there would be hell but he had called the Accused and told him to "cool it". 10530 Milošević also
said that Yugoslavia hoped for intensive links with BiH. 10531 Later in the war, in meetings with
international representatives, Milošević also made assurances that he would speak to the Bosnian
Serbs, that he continued to condemn "ethnic cleansing" [emphasis mine] but that the world was "satanizing" the
Serbs without condemning actions by the other parties.

Anyway, so in saying that Milosevic claimed something they exonerated him? Give me a break. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-09-21, 21:45:30
Bosnia itself had no great reputation during WW2 and murdered large numbers of Serbs so things are not just as simply straightforward as thought.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-09-22, 07:33:38
Boy, talk about a horrible blog post.
OK, I see. I also recall that we had a while back a discussion about this. ;)
You vindicated the 'official version' of the story at that time and probably do so now.
No, I won't mention this time other countries and their questionable merits before, during and after that war. So I won't hurt 'patriotic' feelings of others and will conform to the saying: Everyone should put his own house in order first.
A documentary (I know you don't like documentaries or at least not some) about the ugly part played at highest political level (Chancellor/G.Schröder, Foreign Secretary/J.Fischer and Secretary of Defense/R.Scharping) by my country.

Deutschlands Weg in den Kosovo-Krieg - Es begann mit einer Lüge / Germany's path in the Kosovo war - It started with a lie



And no, it wasn't a humanitarian war military intervention, alike those following in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya or Syria which weren't either.
It was about to expand the controll over the Balkans (finally after WWII) by establishing a permanent military presence.
BTW, Kosovo is hosting today one of Europe's biggest military bases...
As for Western Europe's benefit - new markets (good luck with them) and hordes of refugees trying to escape the consequences of our 'humanitarian war intervention'.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-09-22, 08:28:28
OK, I see. I also recall that we had a while back a discussion about this.  ;)
You vindicated the 'official version' of the story at that time and probably do so now.
Maybe I would, but that's not why I called it a horrible blogpost. I quite literally said in the next sentence, "No links or anything." You write a blogpost, you link to what you're talking about.[1] Anyway, while I was trying to figure out what the author was even talking about, I discovered that they seem to be just plain wrong about what the ICC did. They simply wrote that Milosevic himself said that he "continued to condemn."

Some further searching suggests the specific misquote came from a site dedicated to defending Milosevic: http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg-aw071816.htm To that site's credit they properly source their claims. Unfortunately for them, that makes them all the easier to check. It doesn't improve things any in terms of accuracy, but contrary to the awful blogpost they might've fooled me with proper appearances, except of course that the location itself would certainly give cause for extra scruteny. Regarding accuracy, for example, they claim that the trial chamber "unanimously concluded that Slobodan Milosevic was not part of a "joint criminal enterprise" to victimize Muslims and Croats during the Bosnian war." Further down, they write that "The ICTY did nothing to publicize the fact that they had cleared Milosevic of involvement in the joint criminal enterprise. They quietly buried that finding 1,303 pages into the 2,590 page Karadzic verdict knowing full well that most people would probably never bother to read it."

Well, I'm reading it now. Back to case IT-95-5/18-T.
Quote from: Footnote 10558
The Chamber does not rely on Zametica's general opinion that there was no joint criminal
enterprise between the Accused and Milošević or that Milošević was not interested in a Greater Serbia (emphasis mine).
Oh, shoot! What was it they wrote again?
Quote from: http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg-aw071816.htm
In a stunning ruling, the trial chamber that convicted former Bosnian-Serb president Radovan Karadzic of war crimes and sentenced him to 40 years in prison, unanimously concluded that Slobodan Milosevic was not part of a "joint criminal enterprise" to victimize Muslims and Croats during the Bosnian war.
And let's reread the actual ruling:
Quote from: Footnote 10558
The Chamber does not rely on Zametica's general opinion that there was no joint criminal
enterprise between the Accused and Milošević or that Milošević was not interested in a Greater Serbia (emphasis mine).
Need I say more? Yes, yes I do. Because they may not have been talking about that. They said 1303 pages in. Okay, let's do it. Page 1302/1303. Not that the phrase in question occurs there as such with regard to Milosevic... we do have this:

Quote from: Footnote 11025
Šešelj also stated there was no joint criminal enterprise between the Accused, himself,
and other individuals to expel Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats and that the Accused did not have an
antagonistic attitude towards Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats. [...] The Chamber does not find this evidence to be reliable. In reaching that conclusion, the Chamber considered that Šešelj had a clear self-interest in
testifying in this regard and his evidence was marked by political statements
(emphasis mine).

And:

Quote from: Footnote 11027
The Chamber notes that the relationship between Milošević and the Accused had deteriorated beginning in
1992; by 1994, they no longer agreed on a course of action to be taken. Furthermore, beginning as early as
March 1992, there was apparent discord between the Accused and Milošević in meetings with international
representatives, during which Milošević and other Serbian leaders openly criticised Bosnian Serb leaders of
committing "crimes against humanity" and "ethnic cleansing" and the war for their own purposes (emphasis mine). See paras.
3280, 3289-3297.
It's almost as if the ICC were saying... the exact opposite!

Okay, I skipped a step. That's the footnote to paragraph 3460.
Quote
With regard to the evidence presented in this case in relation to Slobodan Milošević and his
membership in the JCE, the Chamber recalls that he shared and endorsed the political objective of
the Accused and the Bosnian Serb leadership to preserve Yugoslavia and to prevent the separation
or independence of BiH and co-operated closely with the Accused during this time. The Chamber
also recalls that Milošević provided assistance in the form of personnel, provisions, and arms to the
Bosnian Serbs during the conflict. 11026 However, based on the evidence before the Chamber
regarding the diverging interests that emerged between the Bosnian Serb and Serbian leaderships
during the conflict and in particular, Milošević's repeated criticism and disapproval of the policies
and decisions made by the Accused and the Bosnian Serb leadership, 11027 the Chamber is not
satisfied that there was sufficient evidence presented in this case to find that Slobodan Milošević
agreed with the common plan
(emphasis mine).
I guess that must be what they're talking about, yet none of the references on the Milosevic fansite are to paragraph 3460. So we're still left with a guessing game. Anyway, this hardly counts as quietly exonerating, and not just because the case wasn't about Milosevic anyway, but because this is what footnote 11027 applies to. And remember, that said "apparent discord [...] for their own purposes."
The reason I like the non-blog Charlie Hebdo, for example, is not because of the illustrations or its political leanings. What I like is that they say what they're talking about in footnotes so you don't have to guess.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-09-22, 09:06:59
A documentary (I know you don't like documentaries or at least not some) about the ugly part played at highest political level (Chancellor/G.Schröder, Foreign Secretary/J.Fischer and Secretary of Defense/R.Scharping) by my country.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Frans/Screenshots/n-d5sFT/i-xDFPsxG/0/M/i-xDFPsxG-M.png) (https://photos.smugmug.com/Frans/Screenshots/n-d5sFT/i-xDFPsxG/0/O/i-xDFPsxG.png)
Although, just like with video material, I've got years and years and years of books to choose from at any moment, so it's not like I don't have unread books that've been sitting around for a decade either. The difference is that I could in principle probably binge-watch all of my video material within a month or two.

Incidentally, I recently watched L'ennemi intime (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0825248/). I think you might not dislike it, although the protagonist is perhaps a bit... convenient.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-09-22, 10:23:04
@Frenzie
If you start a war humanitarian military intervention based on a lie, someone will get the job for trying to justify your bombs (in this case, bombs over Serbia).
This ungrateful part was left to the ICTY...
Fortunately, the International Criminal Tribunal doesn't have to justify other humanitarian military interventions as well - like that of Iraq for instance.

For those not speaking German - English subtitles (slightly shortened version)
"It Began With a Lie"


Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-09-22, 12:32:28
Here's an easier to process transcript of the broadcast: http://www.ag-friedensforschung.de/themen/NATO-Krieg/ard-sendung.html

But you seem to be missing the point of my source criticism. Your quoted paragraph by all accounts appears to be plain wrong. Is the ICTY full of shit? It's not impossible, after all even proper trials have a great aspect of theatricality, but we're certainly not going to find out from an intellectually reckless individual who can't be bothered to check his facts or share his sources while aping some Milosevic apologetics site in lieu of reading what the ICTY actually wrote.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2016-10-13, 11:12:00
Incidentally, I recently watched L'ennemi intime (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0825248/). I think you might not dislike it, although the protagonist is perhaps a bit... convenient.
I have it playing on my TV.  Will let you know what I think later.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-10-15, 09:24:52
The French wrote the book on COIN (counter-insurgency strategy, and tactics...) from their experiences in Algeria; brutal stuff. An American general named Abrams updated it... And his strategy was working fairly well in Viet Nam. Then  the American Democrat-controlled Congress decided to lose the war and desert our allies.

Next came "nation-building"... That worked out well, didn't it? :(

The idea that war solves nothing is just plain stupid: War solves most things, excepting old grievances... :) And even those stop festering, effectively, after a generation or two. War is the state between peaces...
The "kinder, gentler" ways of dealing with conflicts has cost millions of lives. Thousands or hundreds of thousands of live might well have been better, no?

The Euro-centric peace via the European Union ignores the bear about to come back into what it sees as its cave: Russia.

So: Should the U.S. refrain from engaging...? What say you?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-10-15, 11:11:41
With Obama, the USA abandoned their omnipresent geo-strategy in favour for a localized approach. As usual, it was done in such a poor way that the result was disastrous.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-10-16, 07:32:02
The idea that war solves nothing is just plain stupid: War solves most things, excepting old grievances... :) And even those stop festering, effectively, after a generation or two. War is the state between peaces...
Or peace is the state between wars for some.
Napalm, depleted uranium or death squads as medicine for shaping the world to meet US interests while pretending to save mankind.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-10-16, 09:22:42
Clausewitz was always right, war being the continuation of diplomacy by other means...
There's no hope.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2016-10-16, 13:26:33
The French wrote the book on COIN (counter-insurgency strategy, and tactics...) from their experiences in Algeria; brutal stuff. An American general named Abrams updated it... And his strategy was working fairly well in Viet Nam. Then  the American Democrat-controlled Congress decided to lose the war and desert our allies.
At what point was the strategy working well? When the French had to call Americans to help them out? Or when the country was divided because it could not be conquered?

The idea that war solves nothing is just plain stupid: War solves most things, excepting old grievances... :) And even those stop festering, effectively, after a generation or two.
In some cases, no amount of generation solves the grievance of having been conquered. For example Indians, thoughout centuries, never really acceded to Moghul or British rule. As soon as the opportunity came, the foreign rule was thrown off and they pretty much reverted to as they had been.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-10-30, 08:45:57
The pirates in Iceland have had great progress, but not likely to be  enough to form the next government.

Liberal Regeneration may hold the keys.

First results: Iceland's government ousted and Pirates gain seats (http://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/news/politics_and_society/2016/10/30/first_results_iceland_s_government_ousted_and_pirat/)



Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-10-31, 03:26:42
Liberal Regeneration? Now there's a negative!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-11-01, 11:22:14
The pirates in Iceland have had great progress
Evaluating by the article's photo, the Pirates seems to me a bunch of house wifes...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2016-11-02, 12:17:41
The pirates in Iceland have had great progress
We have our own pirates in the US. One is trying to become president.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hamous.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Ftrump-pirate-arggg.jpg&hash=ddaabdc83333abb01bbd5d0e6e846190" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.hamous.org/wp-content/uploads/trump-pirate-arggg.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-11-03, 01:27:30
And that he has a very good chance betrays much that many ignore.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-11-14, 19:09:46
Soccer fan Pope Francis had a private audience with the German national football team.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn3.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-1071992-galleryV9-drko-1071992.jpg&hash=2b10eea3ac94f63f343553dba95c531c" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn3.spiegel.de/images/image-1071992-galleryV9-drko-1071992.jpg)

Let's hope he didn't excommunicate them for beating Argentina in the 1914 World Cup final. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-11-16, 00:14:18
German national football team
Looking to their faces,the German National something seems to be delighted.
Pagans converting, what a boring spectacle.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-11-16, 04:30:02
Well jimbro he is no longer trying and you are getting him. Serves you right for posh family boys throwing tea in a harbour.

Woo-hoo the old white socks man has an interest in football. The way things go in his corner he needs that added distraction!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-11-16, 15:29:01
McDonald's sues Florence for 18m euros for blocking restaurant (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37910431)

Quote
McDonald's is suing Florence for €18m after it was blocked from opening a restaurant on one of the Italian city's most historic plazas.
The fast-food giant had its plans for an outlet on the Piazza del Duomo rejected by Florence's mayor in June (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/29/bunfight-in-florence-over-plans-for-a-new-mcdonalds-in-the-citys/).
The decision was upheld in July by a technical panel in charge of preserving the city's ancient heart.

This is the second high profile spat over an Italian location this year for McDonalds. Last month it was reported that cardinals at the Vatican had been angered by plans to open a branch in a piazza next to Saint Peter's Square.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2016-11-16, 22:24:26
There is a solution.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fbbsimg.ngfiles.com%2F1%2F7918000%2Fngbbs43ec0a1525d49.jpg&hash=d2e54ff279f0241e5dc9ba142b0e6547" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/1/7918000/ngbbs43ec0a1525d49.jpg)
Some communities are preventing Mac from building the arch "sign".

Frankly, I can't imagine why humans eat there because...
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FjZXwl08l.jpg&hash=966432363b5d0aef3211ea61cf6f5f6c" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/jZXwl08l.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-11-18, 11:22:53
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pixhoster.info%2Ff%2F2016-11%2F02f6f9afa834a86661ce89913208f6f0.jpg&hash=33b69a193cf99292f792e21384e7de01" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.pixhoster.info/f/2016-11/02f6f9afa834a86661ce89913208f6f0.jpg)
Italexit, a not at all unrealistic prospect. (http://www.economonitor.com/blog/2016/08/italy-at-the-brink-from-renzis-referendum-to-italexit/)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-11-18, 11:27:31
And France will have an interesting contest with that lady leader of the French National Front. Although they will not win the Alternative Party in Germany will increase as will happen in Austria and other places.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-11-29, 22:38:21
The future of the world wil be defined (again) for what's happen at the next elections at European countries, specially France.

Germany, meaning Merkel, can't stand alone without the French support and the French people, just like all the others, aren't exactly too much happy about Germany.

England has gone away forever thankfully, gone with the wind, they don't count anymore.

Italy it's important, as well as Spain.

King Filipe of Spain is in this very moment visiting us, paying tribute to our first King (  :lol: ), at an atempt to get our support in an united southern front.

The pieces are moving.

Hopeffully, pseudo-nationalist low classes populism, like English, Le Pen and RjHowie's kind (not different from Trump's), will not pass and Europe will, as always, occupy the place that belongs us by nature, at the very top.

And believe me, I'm the least European of Europeans, very proudly.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-11-30, 01:11:47
it's Britain, it's Britain....not England boy from impoverished Iberia circles. We British are on the UN top level our financial sector is important to Europe. Yes we lost an empire ages ago and so did you but look at the state of Portugal nowadays. And automatically dumping me in Trump's corner as an encouragement to yourself in the babble. Your country cannot exist without the EU mess makers but we can. Populism is across Europe. Le Pen will not win the French Presidency due to that new man from the republican Party. However that party will continue to be there in France as will other populist rightists in Austrian, Germany, America  and other places.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-12-02, 16:58:18
Today Sweden, and Finland, celebrate the 250 year anniversary (http://www.thelocal.se/20161202/happy-250th-birthday-swedens-pioneering-free-press-act) for the 1766 Freedom of the Press Act, a pioneering act not just for freedom of the press, but also for transparency.

While not one-for-one comparable, Sweden was a parliamentary monarchy with the monarch not being a figurehead, it predated the US First Amendment with 25 years, and the Freedom of Information Act with 200 years.

This was the age of enlightenment, which in Sweden soon would be replaced by absolute enlightened monarchy lasting from a coup d'etat to the king's assassination at a masked ball at the opera (which Verdi later turned into an opera of his own). 

https://youtu.be/TVciFuNA83M
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-12-02, 22:59:13
Quote
It can be restricted in the case of one of seven exceptional circumstances however. Among those are the possibility to restrict the right of access if restriction is necessary for national security, central fiscal policy, preventing or prosecuting a crime, and even the preservation of animals or plant species.

A fraud, as expected.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-12-03, 17:02:39
Just a passing pity that Sweden now only has a figurehead at the top.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-12-03, 17:51:38
It would be a much greater pity if the European monarchs weren't figureheads. Hans-Adam II, the Fürst of Liechtenstein, would be the most notable exception. He pretty much owns the country.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-12-03, 22:48:18
Well he did make his feelings well known and good for him. Indeed he made it very clear that any erosion he would be off. The result a majority voted supporting him!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-04, 10:47:45
Sort of like American movie stars threatening to go to Canada if Trump were elected...? (Nah. He had the cash and carry! Which is to say, he'd take a lot of GDP with him. Little countries are vulnerable that way.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-12-12, 16:51:23
@krake might appreciate this: https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/LG-Hamburg-will-Rechtmaessigkeit-seiner-Online-Inhalte-nicht-rechtsverbindlich-erklaeren-3568292.html

English context for those who don't speak German: https://torrentfreak.com/unknowingly-linking-to-infringing-content-is-still-infringement-court-rules-161210/
Quote
In 2011, Dutch blog GeenStijl.nl published an article which linking to leaked Playboy photos which were stored on third-party hosting sites. Playboy publisher Sanoma said this amounted to infringement.

[...]

"[T]he decision of the Hamburg Regional Court represents a massive tightening of their inspection obligations and their liability in itself," Dr. Kahl explains.

"In order to exclude the possibility of a copyright infringement, in the future you should check, before each linking, whether the page operator has the necessary rights for the photos published there. If this is not the case, you should not link, if you do not want to take a liability risk."
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-12-12, 18:56:13
Thanks Frezie. :)
However Heise.de is among my bookmarks for a very long time and I visit the site at least once during every online session.
So I've read about it.
They are killing the Internet step by step, at least the Internet we were used to.

BTW,
LG Hamburg - mit Willkür zur Verlinkungs-Angst (https://www.heise.de/tp/features/LG-Hamburg-mit-Willkuer-zur-Verlinkungs-Angst-3568109.html)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-12-13, 02:58:25
Well he was a monarchical Head of State OakdaleFTL and very popular obviously. Maybe you should get one.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-13, 08:52:44
Well he was a monarchical Head of State OakdaleFTL and very popular obviously. Maybe you should get one.
Not the least bit interested, RJ. Even if we do have some few individuals who'd prefer someone "popular"! :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-12-14, 00:21:04
Well Oakdale, I can recall a number of years back watching a documentary series on your revolution and what system they should have being discussed at Philly. And what do you know there was a suggestion raised of getting a prince over from Europe - German I think?  And by the way that monarch of Liechtenstein has a bigger rating than your President.  :whistle:  :up:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-14, 01:22:06
You seem to be doubling down on popularity, RJ! Was Charles I popular? :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-12-15, 00:42:04
Everything that matters for the World is going on in Europe and nowhere else.
Even in complete decadence, there's no competition.

An American, a Russian and a Chinese enters in a bar....  what a joke. :lol:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-12-15, 01:12:47
You dodged the thing Oakdale by that daft answer. That cival war in GB was a battle of two sides just like your flakey revolution was. May I also remind you that you in hard practice did not have the majority. A third for the revolution a third against and the rest didn't care much a damn about sides.  Anyway we brought kings back and you lot even considered one!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-15, 18:30:24
Anyway we brought kings back and you lot even considered one!
Some few did, but General Washington was wiser than than his forebears... :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-12-16, 01:30:34
Guff. He was part of the place's early form of corporates and the way the country has turned out only emphases that. We have a monarch that gets 80% rating when will you lot ever catch up?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-16, 01:44:01
We have a monarch that gets 80% rating when will you lot ever catch up?
Never! You like to like your inconsequentials... Coming from Glasgow, that makes perfect sense.
We need -and deserve!- consequential politicians. Executives and legislators; indeed, jurists... We won't pretend an elderly lady who can wave her gloved hands at crowds who dare not speak to her is the epitome of democracy! :)

How's Ms. May doing, by the way? (BTW: I'm a bit of a fan.)
I suppose I should watch your parliament's "debate hour" (or whatever you call it) -- but you haven't had much in the way of theater since Shaw...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2016-12-16, 16:50:05
Quote from: rjhowie on 2016-12-15, 17:30:34 (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?msg=68486)We have a monarch that gets 80% rating when will you lot ever catch up?Never! You like to like your inconsequentials... Coming from Glasgow, that makes perfect sense.
Remember that the Queen does nothing but look Queenly. No power. No actions of consequence. But she's good at pinning medals on folks.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/72/51/94/725194659b85b48f439438320f4df17d.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-12-16, 22:38:21
Here we give medals more sensibly than your lot. You even give them to someone sitting at a pc directing  robot controlled min-planes to do people. Queen Victoria refused to sign a bill on female queers and King George 5th (HM's grandfather) personally summonsed all those participating in the Irish crisis of 1922 to Buckingham Palace to deal with the thing. The Queen can also act on leaning on PM's when they visit her. In your corner you cannot even get your wonderful Presidents to get an 80% support. When it comes to formal state events you bunch haven't a clue and look like kids playing at military. US military tanding with feet together like women here do. Laughable! So you are lucky I am not in the royal bodyguard.  :knight:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-12-17, 01:23:10
The Queen, her mentally retarded son and her grandchildren aren't anymore part of Europe.
So it goes for her subjects.
Long lives the Brexit.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-17, 11:27:13
Someone recently wrote
Quote
Fischer points out, the geopolitical "West was founded on an American commitment to come to its allies' defense," and it "cannot exist without the US playing this crucial role, which it may now abnegate under Trump."
So: What does Europe do?! :)
I mean, for itself...?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-12-17, 11:59:59
"Someone" would seem to be: https://fbkfinanzwirtschaft.wordpress.com/2016/12/16/the-trump-enigma/

What does Europe do? We welcome Trump's desire to gtfo. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-17, 12:35:53
Quote
Bildt, like many Project Syndicate commentators, fears what will happen if Trump does scrap the Iran nuclear deal and reneges on American commitments under the Paris climate agreement. "These are two of the international community's only significant diplomatic achievements in recent years," he writes. "The consequences of a US retreat from them are anyone's guess. In any case, global stability will certainly suffer."
These are really what's most important to Europeans?!

Europe can probably afford its own defense. No?

And the planet can likely survive this pest we call Humanity...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-12-17, 13:37:36
Or Fischer's own words, Goodbye to the West (https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/goodbye-to-american-global-leadership-by-joschka-fischer-2016-12) in another Prague publication outlet (a stone's throw from the old Opera office, incidentally). 

Quote
The West shouldn't be confused with the "Occident." While the West's culture, norms, and predominant religion are broadly Occidental in origin, it evolved into something different over time. The Occident's basic character was shaped over centuries by the Mediterranean region (though parts of Europe north of the Alps made many important contributions to its development). The West, by contrast, is transatlantic, and it is a child of the twentieth century.

Now, I think Fischer is a half-hearted Atlanticist, and the Trans-Atlantic alliance is a bit like the French-German axis, a marriage of convenience where the partners would be stronger together than apart. Atlanticism has been on the decline for a long time, and that would continue even without Trump. There are just so many more others out there. But an alliance once so strong when Western Europe and the US were the masters of the universe (the Soviet Union willing) is weakening just as, relatively speaking, Europe and the US are, and as I've claimed before, not only has Europe become more American, America has become more European. 
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-12-17, 14:03:23
Quote
Bildt, like many Project Syndicate commentators, fears what will happen if Trump does scrap the Iran nuclear deal and reneges on American commitments under the Paris climate agreement. "These are two of the international community's only significant diplomatic achievements in recent years," he writes. "The consequences of a US retreat from them are anyone's guess. In any case, global stability will certainly suffer."
These are really what's most important to Europeans?!

Europe can probably afford its own defense. No?

To quote Bildt further (https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/trump-foreign-policy-international-stability-by-carl-bildt-2016-12)

Quote
Nearly two years ago, former US National Security Adviser and Secretary of State Henry Kissinger warned the Senate Armed Services Committee that, "as we look around the world, we encounter upheaval and conflict." As Kissinger observed at the time, "the United States has not faced a more diverse and complex array of crises since the end of the Second World War."

And what seemed true from the perspective of Washington, DC, was doubly so from a European perspective. To put it plainly, Europe feels as though it were surrounded by a ring of fire, from the revisionist and revanchist Russia in the east, to the multiple meltdowns in the Middle East and North Africa in the south.

Since the spring of 2014, when Russia started fueling the conflict in Donbas and other parts of Eastern Ukraine, ten thousand people have died there, and another two million have been displaced. And, of course, these figures pale in comparison to the humanitarian disasters in Syria, Libya, and Yemen.

Now, NATO is planning to deploy troops to Northeast Poland and the three Baltic States - Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania - while the European Union struggles to manage continuous refugee flows and exert control over its external borders.
Moreover, the security threat from Russia has prompted a gradual increase in European defense spending and security cooperation. Whereas the EU has traditionally made peace and prosperity its primary objectives, it is now being forced to prioritize security above all else. That is a significant change.

In other words Europe is surrounded by trouble-makers in the West (Trump), East (Putin), and the south (Africa and the Middle East), but that's what they are, not existential threats like during the Cold War.

The Iran deal and Paris agreements are both very important to Europe, but neither are dependent on the US, it will just be messier. That's probably the operative word for the time to come, messy, and the operative approach would be to muddle through. 
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2016-12-19, 13:19:47
The U.S. Embassy Prague Joins the "Short Trousers For Václav Havel" (https://cz.usembassy.gov/us-embassy-prague-joins-short-trousers-vaclav-havel/)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q3kPGIEdzY
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2016-12-19, 15:42:28
Quote
Whereas the EU has traditionally made peace and prosperity its primary objectives, it is now being forced to prioritize security above all else. That is a significant change.
A quite idealistic picture of the EU which doesn't hold water if one looks at the facts. Wonder how many Europeans want to face the facts not to mention our politicians in charge.
- Iraq
It was an American aggression with consequences probably lasting for decades to come...
However Americans were not allone. There was also a coalition of the willing. Many of those willing were from Europe, the EU so to speak. Their military help was rather irrelevant but they were used as kind of moral justification or at least as accomplices. Every sane person knew that it is an aggression in breach with international law. But who cares about international law and human lifes if some profitable deals might come as a reward for the accomplices.
- Libya
Another ruthless aggression with lasting consequences. This time some of Europe's peace loving leaders were among the worst booster...
- Ukraine
A putsch with the help of right nationalists organized by the USA with the help of its European peace loving allies, turning the Ukraine into a Russia hostile territory over night. What did Washington, Berlin, Paris and London expect? Congratulations from Putin and a request to organize the next putsch in Moscow?
- Syria
Turning some peaceful protests into a bloody civil war for yet another regime change. Self proclaimed "Friends of Syria" arming and financing lunatic dschichadists (cough, cough 'moderate rebels') for getting rid of Assad. Now our peace loving EU leaders are blaming Russia for the carnage.
- Jemen
Our peace loving politicians and media turning a blind eye to the carnage made by our dear friends and weapon buyers (the Saudis) in Jemen.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-12-23, 22:19:36
Soon, jax's words will refer to inside Europe, that's the American objective.
Iraq, Libya and the rest are nothing but the American actions to destroy Europe's objectives of peace and prosperity. They don't care about such folcklore, they want to destroy Europe. Until now, very well done.

I don't understand why guillotines are not being used with the colluding European traitors.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-23, 22:23:53
Destroy Europe? :) The EU is quite capable of that, all by itself... (With maybe a little help from Russia.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-12-23, 23:27:40
And there is America with armies of poor and suffering you give plenty of well nothing for them! Look closer home before tirading against elsewhere.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-24, 00:52:45
Our poverty rate is less than yours, but it's never stopped you! :) You expect to be poor; and perhaps you deserve it. But if only the angels can complain, back off, fella: You're nowhere near close!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-12-24, 12:46:06
Destroy Europe?  :)
You do nothing but that, you desperately need a weak and controlled Europe, it's basic.

Do you have an idea about how many European top students you're paying with your tax money so they go study to the EUA and return as pro American hidden agents at governments and institutions? Course you don't.

No wonder Nationalism is emerging all over Europe as a reaction by the people's will to smash all those vermins.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-01-06, 16:02:32
After some struggle with the locals, McDonald's opens almost next door to Vatican (http://roma.repubblica.it/cronaca/2017/01/03/news/roma_apre_a_borgo_pio_il_primo_mcdonald_di_san_pietro-155341959/)

(https://www.repstatic.it/content/localirep/img/rep-roma/2017/01/03/143852719-def17655-5630-4ea5-b650-a5ba4169c219.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-01-06, 17:47:59
Opposition to the McDonald's in Florence still seems to be going strong (https://www.facebook.com/Nomcinpiazzaduomo/) (caution: Facebook group link).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-01-06, 23:24:39
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reviewjournal.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Ffield%2Fmedia%2Fweb1_2017-01-03t135602z_1886448481_rc12b9237070_rtrmadp_3_vatican-mcdonalds_7708266.JPG&hash=d010af4a53f5c0bbc39860f4963df908" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.reviewjournal.com/sites/default/files/field/media/web1_2017-01-03t135602z_1886448481_rc12b9237070_rtrmadp_3_vatican-mcdonalds_7708266.JPG)



(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FYA1GHro.jpg&hash=d1bf0f17479f192db7718e96675c2f9e" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/YA1GHro.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-01-07, 23:37:36
The cost of life raises in Germany (inflation) so, automatically, the cost of debt rises in Portugal.
As always, we're the ones paying for the German style of life. Fantastic, indeed.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-07, 23:52:53
Why don't you'all just exit...? :) What has the EU ever done for you?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-01-08, 13:58:41
Many many things, we've a very beautiful flag full of stars to stare wilhe listening to Ode to Joy.
It touches our hearts and souls.

Ahh and we turned pacifists.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2017-01-08, 14:54:56
EUCOM's reassurance mission to eastern Europe tests brawn and brains (https://www.stripes.com/news/europe/eucom-s-reassurance-mission-to-eastern-europe-tests-brawn-and-brains-1.441722)

Quote
(https://www.stripes.com/polopoly_fs/1.441723.1480440311!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_900/image.jpg) (https://www.stripes.com/polopoly_fs/1.441723.1480440311!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_900/image.jpg)

In 2017, the Marine Corps is set to establish a new forward mission in Norway; Army cavalrymen are headed to Poland as part of NATO's "enhanced presence" in the region; and the Fort Carson-based 3rd Armored Brigade, 4th Infantry Division, will be fanning out up and down eastern Europe. The linchpin to the campaign to showcase U.S. firepower -- which is largely funded through the $3.4 billion European Reassurance Initiative -- is the unglamorous business of the military's logisticians.


For EUCOM and the Army in Europe, the arrival of the Fort Carson brigade in January, and its subsequent push into Poland, will be a test that will "help us measure, assess and then make any corrections we need to make," Bertulis said.

As the tanks and artillery move across a commercial network, unloaded from ships docked at Bremerhaven, Germany, and then transported by rail and trucks, military planners will be looking for bottlenecks that slow the flow of equipment.
"They will be on the clock," USAREUR Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges recently said. "How fast can we get them from Bremerhaven to assembly areas in western Poland?"
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-01-10, 14:32:24
This anti-Russia thing is so much damn nonsense. Military exercises in Poland, Romania, Bulgaria the Baltics and so on All as an excuse to justify NATO. The excuse being behind the scenes as a warning if Russia invades?? NATO is larger than the Russian Federation forces as it happens and is a load of cobblers. We must be mad.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-01-16, 09:51:54
Ukraine 'Happy' to Pay EU Gas Price in Move Away From Russia (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-03/ukraine-happy-to-pay-eu-gas-premium-in-move-away-from-russia)
Bloomberg doesn't disclose the price the Ukraine is paying now for 'EU gas'. OilPrice.com (http://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Ukraine-Pays-20-More-For-EU-Gas-Than-It-Would-Have-Paid-To-Russia.html) does.
Quote
Ukraine Pays 20% More For EU Gas Than It Would Have Paid To Russia
The Ukrainian leadership seems to have a pragmatic point of view - it doesn't real matter how much you pay for something as long as you pay with money you don't own.
Unfortunately the above view doesn't apply to the common people living there. They can't pay for energy supply with money they don't have.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-01-17, 00:20:28
These Northern Europeans doesn't deserve any Europe...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2017-01-17, 12:10:38
Energy security has a value. It is better not to get all your energy needs from a single source of energy blackmail, a weapon Russia has used before.

Norway has profited, getting gas contracts for a premium relative to Russia.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-18, 01:07:10
We must be mad.
RJ, as far as I can tell, you always have been!

BTW: Does anyone want to tell France that their dependence on nuclear energy is a threat to the EU? (Or, for that matter, that Germany's shuttering its nuclear energy infrastructure -for fear of tsunamis, for the love of Pete!- in favor of more coal isn't a "cognitive dissidence" issue? :) )
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-01-18, 09:51:27
Energy security has a value.
By value you mean price.
Wonder what would happen to you if you'd tell this to those people who can't afford those prices. Keep in mind that it's winter in the Ukraine too.
Besides, 80% of Ukrainian export went to Russia. Who do you thing will compensate that loss? The EU? The USA? Cthulhu?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-01-18, 10:20:37
BTW: Does anyone want to tell France that their dependence on nuclear energy is a threat to the EU?
Old unsecure nuclear plants are a bigger threat for neighboring countries than those posed by Russsia, China, Iran and North Korea (let's hope that I didn't miss any villain :) ) altogether.
Besides, that heavy dependence of France on nuclear energy led to a blind alley (http://www.lalsace.fr/actualite/2017/01/07/8-c-le-matin).

Or, for that matter, that Germany's shuttering its nuclear energy infrastructure -for fear of tsunamis, for the love of Pete!
It's neither because of the fear of tsunamis nor is it because of Pete!
- Nuclear power results from the most dangerous procedure of producing energy.
Please name me insurance companies insuring nuclear plants!
The annualy fee for such an insurance per plant would be around 100 billions of $$$. Even so nuclear plants built in unsecure tectonic areas like those in Japan would be exempted from any insurance.
- Germany doesn't have vast unpopulated areas. Even advocates of nuclear energy are opposing a final depot for nuclear waste in their own federal state. ;)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2017-01-18, 17:05:16
Joseph Calleja (https://twitter.com/MalteseTenor/status/820570351834906624) and the National Orchestra performed for the opening of the presidency (http://www.tvm.com.mt/en/news/video-success-for-calleja-national-orchestra-at-opening-of-presidency/) yesterday. No Youtube, so an old BBC Proms clip will have to substitute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpoCc32dNkg


Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2017-01-18, 17:21:00
And on that note,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HdBGw_viRs
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2017-02-03, 14:48:02

"Outside a pub in Clerkenwell, England."

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cw7eC_7UQAAT2Nw.jpg) (https://twitter.com/DanielAlpert/status/796818344531939330)

Mission accomplished

https://youtu.be/fwLbDGX4qbk


An addendum,

Malta summit: For once, it is not all about Brexit (http://www.itv.com/news/2017-02-03/malta-summit-for-once-it-is-not-all-about-brexit/)

Quote
The President of the Council, Donald Tusk, wrote an extraordinary letter to his fellow leaders this week warning them of the threats the continent now faced. An assertive China. Russian aggression. Radical Islam. So far, nothing too surprising. But then the bombshell, as he listed "worrying declarations by the American administration".
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-02-04, 07:41:12
So to speak, Donald T(usk) against Donald T(rump). :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-02-04, 08:44:00
Nah. The veneer of democracy in Europe will be shown to be what it in actuality is...
You folks still really want fascism...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-02-04, 12:19:55
You folks still really want fascism...
Hmm, I don't know what my European fellows want but I could give some exciting suggestions.
How about invading some countries and bombing them flat? The bombings we have been engaged recently aren't enough. You must keep exercising, otherwise you forget how to do it right. Droning people abroad must be also very funny and it shouldn't be the privilege of one single president on earth. Hey, bringing demogracy to others could be sooo funny!!! :)
Furthemore we would need a big, big, big prison abroad. You know, one where our own laws don't apply. Maybe the Russians could lend us their former Gulag. We could give them some sanctions in turn.
Last but not least, the ultimative thing to make people abroad happy - regime changes. :)
Let's do it in countries like Russia, China, Iran, ....(my European felows may complete the list with their own proposals) but very important - America first!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-02-04, 12:34:21
but very important - America first!
Who wants to be Second?  (http://mashable.com/2017/02/03/europe-spoof-video-donald-trump-trolling/?utm_cid=mash-com-fb-uk-link#irm5Jev4vSqN)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-02-05, 03:40:17
I specially liked the last entry: Because who wouldn't take their cues from people who make believe for a living? :)
Certainly not the folks who consider comedians our best and brightest!
(Is there a joke in there, somewhere?)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-02-07, 22:49:14
 EU Med summit is working. Twenty years after I said the southern countries have to unite against the northern barbarians, finally something starts to move.  Two more summits are already agended after this one at Malta.
This is the perfect time, the perfect storm. :)

EU Med means the seven southern European Mediterrean countries, represented at the highest level by their prime ministers, making a common strategy against the anglo-saxon-german-eslavian-protestant Northerners.

Three hundred million consumers that makes EU to be bigger or smaller than the US. Simple as that.
Facts, just facts.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-02-20, 21:42:09
Quiz

Take a look at the image below. It was taken recently in Brussels.
What's wrong with that picture? :)

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FRAVDDJD.jpg&hash=763baeff3b272f830ffb189ecad8633f" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/RAVDDJD.jpg)

The first correct answer gets a virtual beer crate from Germany! :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-02-21, 07:25:23
Tusk talks to Pence as if he (Tusk) were able to speak English.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-02-21, 09:03:50
Sorry Ersi. That's not the correct answer.
Mr Tusk does speak English. It's true that his English was very poor but somehow he managed to improve it since 2014.
Not to be compared with Matteo Renzi's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtMiH9UjtXM) English. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2017-02-21, 19:41:38
What's wrong with that picture?
Too many stars! OMG!
Twelve in the EURO flag.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-02-21, 20:20:14
Jim, you are really good at counting stars but there is nothing wrong with the EURO flag. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-02-27, 07:18:06
Quiz closed. The jury has decided.

The winner is Mr. Tennessee!
Congratulations Jim.  :beer:  :beer:  :beer:  :beer:  :beer:  :beer:  :cheers:

"Too many stars!" was the correct answer. :yes:
Since Jim obscured the correct answer by mentioning the EURO flag, we thought that maybe he wants to give only a discreet hint while keeping the game open. That's the reason we decided to keep the quiz open for a while.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2017-02-28, 10:29:49
Montenegro 'to indict Russian spy behind coup plot' (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/26/montenegro-indict-russian-spy-behind-coup-plot/)

Quote
Montenegro is reportedly preparing to indict the Russian intelligence officer it accuses of masterminding a bloody coup plot to stop the Balkan nation joining Nato.

Eduard Sismakov, an officer with Russia's GRU military intelligence service, is accused of running a web of Serbian and Russian nationalists and paramilitaries who plotted to assassinate the Montenegrin prime minister.

The British government believes the thwarted plot was carried out with the backing of Moscow (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/18/russias-deadly-plot-overthrow-montenegros-government-assassinating/) and UK and US intelligence agencies have been helping the tiny Balkan nation unravel the conspiracy.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-02-28, 12:38:22
Hochtief could bid for U.S. border wall contract: CEO (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-hochtief-results-usa-idUSKBN167120)

Quote
German builder Hochtief (HOTG.DE) is keen for more work in the United States, including any possible contract to build a wall on the U.S. border with Mexico, Chief Executive Marcelino Fernandez Verdes said.
Fernandez Verdes was speaking after Hochtief, which is majority-owned by Spanish construction group ACS (ACS.MC), published 2016 financial results.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-02-28, 19:38:12
Montenegro 'to indict Russian spy behind coup plot' (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/26/montenegro-indict-russian-spy-behind-coup-plot/)
NATO's Strange Addition of Montenegro (https://consortiumnews.com/2017/02/28/natos-strange-addition-of-montenegro/)

Montenegro's ruler for nearly three decades:
2015 MAN OF THE YEAR IN ORGANIZED CRIME Milo Djukanović (https://www.occrp.org/personoftheyear/2015/)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-03-09, 19:07:55
Quote from: EU Observer
EU re-elects Tusk, Poland isolated (https://euobserver.com/institutional/137180)

Twenty seven member states voted in favour of Tusk, leaving Polish prime minister Beata Szydlo alone in opposition to her fellow countryman, a political opponent of her conservative Law and Justice (PiS) party.

Arriving at the summit, Szydlo had insisted that "a person who has no support in his home country cannot become president of the European Council".

In the end, it took EU states just half an hour to overrule her.

Szydlo even lost the support of Poland's usual EU allies, Visegrad group partners Hungary, Slovakia, and Czech Republic.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-03-09, 19:26:04
Twenty-seven out of twenty-eight member states did vote for Tusk. So far so good.
The only question arising is whom does Tusk represent at the EU? I mean which of the other twenty-seven member states since it hardly can be Poland.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-03-09, 19:34:19
None of them. EU is not a democratic thing. It's just a club of prime ministers and some other important cabinet members. They play their game of politics.

EU parliament is not a real parliament either. People don't elect representatives of the people to the EU parliament. Instead, local parties in the member states send some odd individuals away to the EU parliament because it's a way to get rid of them for some time.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-03-09, 19:50:14
People don't elect representatives of the people to the EU parliament. Instead, local parties in the member states send some odd individuals away to the EU parliament because it's a way to get rid of them for some time.
I agree with you.
But we were told all the time (at least here in Germany) that the legitimacy of EU representatives is deduced by the mandate they get from their free elected governments. This can't be the case now and hence my question.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2017-03-10, 16:13:23
Twenty-seven out of twenty-eight member states did vote for Tusk. So far so good.
The only question arising is whom does Tusk represent at the EU? I mean which of the other twenty-seven member states since it hardly can be Poland.

That is easy. The president represents and is a representative of the EU, which is kind of obvious as Poland (and before that Belgium) have their own head of government in the Council. Tusk doesn't represent Poland, just like Rumpuy didn't represent Belgium. Or from other organisations Secretary General Stoltenberg doesn't represent Norway in NATO, and Secretary General Guterres doesn't represent Portugal in the UN.

The fact that not even Hungary's Orban supports Poland's PiS party here (whose founder and leader claim Tusk is responsible for the death of his brother) tells how isolated they are from everyone.

Poland reacts with fury to re-election of Donald Tusk (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/09/donald-tusk-re-elected-as-european-council-president-despite-polish-opposition)

While a 27-1 victory isn't exactly a riveting competition, Tusk is a good outcome for the British. The process of Brexit is going to take all the time of the UK and EU bureaucracy for the next two years, and while the president of the EC isn't the primary protagonist, it won't hurt the British to have a sympathetic facilitator in the Council.  
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-03-10, 18:50:46
Okay agreed with your comment. :)  It is correct - formal at least.
As for your comparison with Stoltenberg, he is merely a PR man of the NATO controlled by the USA.

Speaking of the EU - honestly, do you really think that Martin Schulz former President of the European Parliament didn't also stood for German interests?
Same did apply for Van Rompuy, Baroso or anyone else as well.
Of course it depends much on who stands at your back in order to be able to push some of those interests through. ;)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-05-07, 19:01:32
France has a new President.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fs1.lemde.fr%2Fimage%2F2017%2F05%2F07%2F972x323%2F5123810_9_3adb_resultats-65-5_40c8840032928c2c5997668b07612f4a.png&hash=41b81a2ea71d2ff59dbdfd94d04cba17" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://s1.lemde.fr/image/2017/05/07/972x323/5123810_9_3adb_resultats-65-5_40c8840032928c2c5997668b07612f4a.png)

Polls were right. Here. This time.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-05-07, 21:17:40
Another one sold to the opression of European populations.
A Rotschild employée
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-05-08, 00:34:35
I don't think he will be some kind of wonderful saviour for France. He went from the far left to the centre to get somewhere and principles just a handy passing word.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-05-15, 20:11:21
I forget if there's a more appropriate thread for this. Initial Dutch government formation negotiations have failed:

Quote from: https://www.quirksmode.org/politics/blog/archives/2017/05/formation_fail.html
Just in: the negotiations between VVD, CDA, D66, and GL have failed. I assume that means that CU will be swapped in for GL. The question is who's going to get the blame.

Informer Schippers (VVD) blamed not one of the parties, but several sharp disagreements, notably on migration, but also on climate and income, for the failure. The party leaders concurred: apparently the decision to break off the negotiations was taken by all of them, instead of one party leaving the table.

It would be interesting to hear more about the exact nature of the disagreements, but that won't happen tonight. The party leaders are being very disciplined so far: they know they might be required to run a reprise of this round of negotiations later on, and there's no point in hurting anyone's feelings.

[...]
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2017-05-16, 10:34:15
Another Quirksmode follower, I see (though I admit I haven't been too loyal, it has been more off than on the last decade).

There's a while to go before the Netherlands reach Belgian "we need no stinking government". I get a little Czech deja vu though, but I hope the Dutch political scene isn't as immature as that though.

The Czechs started democracy with a number of unusual parties. Then normalisation (being professional, as Klaus claimed) set in, and they got the normal political spectrum, with ostensibly Social Democrats battled ostensibly Market Liberal, with anti-democratic parties on either wing and some minor players. Now fatigue has set in, and a number of "fresh" parties battling the previous fresh batch, which experience has been shown to be stale.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-05-16, 10:53:49
Europe just wants to be free! :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-05-16, 11:47:56
Another Quirksmode follower, I see (though I admit I haven't been too loyal, it has been more off than on the last decade).
Quirksmode is one of those sites you just couldn't get around in the early 2000s. I remain subscribed to the newsfeed, but in recent years I haven't actually read much other than the newer Political Quirks blog. Sometimes it offers useful analyses, but mostly it's my go-to English source for foreigners.

There's a while to go before the Netherlands reach Belgian "we need no stinking government". I get a little Czech deja vu though, but I hope the Dutch political scene isn't as immature as that though.
It's far from irregular for the initial phase of negotiations to fail. They're still probing each other.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-05-16, 17:45:22
The Netherlands is in a messed up political situation with the would-be shared government. The issue of immigration is a problem as the nutty Greens are part of the complete open door nonsense and a proper government cannot still be steeled after months.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-05-16, 22:41:25
The only thing going on in Europe is France, so please stop about invisible, irrelevant, Dutch and the sort.
The future of France will determine the future of Europe.

With the obvious exception of Portugal that needs France for nothing.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-05-17, 02:13:36
The Netherlands is a more advanced place than your Iberian corner. Well you lot cannot exist without Europe and you get more out than you put in. Are you lot trained in begging bowls....?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-05-17, 08:12:38
The issue of immigration is a problem as the nutty Greens are part of the complete open door nonsense and a proper government cannot still be steeled after months.
Are they? Back in 2010 or so I was rather offended by a number of tweets by their party members *cough*the criminal pamphleteer and the smoker herself*cough* suggesting most non-European women wishing to emigrate to the Netherlands are "import brides". They're a bunch of two-faced sanctimonious hypocrites as far as I'm concerned.

Nevertheless, overall they're reasonably sound, with evidence-based policies just like D66 and VVD. CDA is the party that sounds good in principle, but completely ignores whether the things they suggest have a basis in reality. The PVV (Wilders') party has such disdain for the voter that they didn't even bother to put up more than about one A4 worth of so-called party program. SGP (fundamentalist Protestants) is similarly evidence-based and quite rational. Do I agree that women shouldn't work? Well, not exactly (but I'm certainly not against the one-earner idea -- it's just that it might as well be the wife), but unlike the SP's disastrous ideas about leaving the EU when processed by the CBS (central bureau for statistics) you can actually see that their policies would have the desired economic outcome.

A party that suggests things that are well-known to be ineffective (e.g., look at America's prison system) does not deserve a vote no matter how lofty they might sound. I try to ignore gut feeling (e.g., instinctive agreement with the CDA's "punishment is punishment") as much as possible when voting and try to actually take the facts into consideration. What actually reduces recidivism? What actually reduces drug use? And I'm proud that our Dutch politics are some of the most evidence-based, technocratic in the world. Our rates of drug use, teen pregnancies, recidivism, deaths during child birth,[1] etc. are some of the lowest in the world precisely because of this.

With migration it's similarly hard to see much of an actual problem, except that contrary to popular noise it's too hard to obtain a working or residential permit. That causes, e.g., Brazilians to come over illegally instead of legally and not pay taxes or integrate properly. I mean this from the perspective of countries like Belgium, the Netherlands or Germany. A smaller country like Estonia being swamped with Russians could be something very different. Unfortunately rational discussion about migration is borderline impossible. The left seems to be dead-set on opposing anything Wilders says even when he's right. The right meanwhile is afraid to be sufficiently rational about it because they're afraid to lose too many gut-voters to Wilders. In the end that means D66 and VVD are more likely to be right than GL but they're still bordering on nonsense. I find it a worrisome development.

The only thing going on in Europe is France, so please stop about invisible, irrelevant, Dutch and the sort.
The most interesting thing I've learned from following French media is how much significance they impart to the Netherlands. Which, economically speaking, makes sense.
Note that many take place at home.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-05-17, 22:34:53
Might I mention again: Islam is a faith diametrically opposed to any form of democracy? And the faith cannot reform...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-05-18, 01:38:33
Well Frenzie the Green nutters are open to hugging unlimited immigrants. Someone needs to remind these very lefty empty heads that we live on an island.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2017-05-18, 05:02:01
Do we? You mean the world?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-05-18, 05:43:45
Britain is an island. Scotland is another island. Almost. It's a fake island.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-05-18, 06:43:10
Might I mention again: Islam is a faith diametrically opposed to any form of democracy? And the faith cannot reform...
I thought that so were you? :)

I suppose you might be connecting the socialist-Catholic proclivity for multicultural appeasement, better known under the misnomer of respect, with the overall pro-migration vision of a liberal(-democrat). That would be a mistake. The GroenLinks (GreenLeft) type of thought @rjhowie was talking about likes to define white men as the oppressors, which makes (supposedly[1]) non-white men the oppressed by definition.
In the Middle East they're still part of the "white" Caucasian race (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=2476.msg68591#msg68591).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-05-18, 17:42:33
I thought that so were you?  :)
Not any form, Frenzie!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-05-18, 23:09:29
I suppose you might be connecting the socialist-Catholic proclivity for multicultural appeasement, better known under the misnomer of respect, with the overall pro-migration vision of a liberal(-democrat).
And what the fuck you mean by that, atheist leftist multicultural pro homosexual northern relativist?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-05-19, 00:06:56
What a silly thing from ersi even allowing for where he comes from!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-05-19, 08:46:43
atheist leftist multicultural pro homosexual northern relativist?
Hey, Bel, couldn't your spleen have spewed a little bit more? It seems like you're suffering that southern malady, ennui... (Don't you wish your language had a word like that? :) )
Mind, Frenzie, I'm not saying I disagree with Belfrager's characterization. I'm just noting that he doesn't seem to understand that we both inhabit the same planet. I think we can get along, 'tho we disagree about a lot; he seems to think we can't.

If I recall correctly, we got here via the presumed (by me, at least...) divide between Moslem and (used-to-be) Christian civilizations.
I think that still matters, since Islam is about 700 years behind us!

But -seriously- do you think Islam is capable of a "reformation"?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-05-19, 10:49:43
Mind, Frenzie, I'm not saying I disagree with Belfrager's characterization. I'm just noting that he doesn't seem to understand that we both inhabit the same planet. I think we can get along, 'tho we disagree about a lot; he seems to think we can't.
I disagree with leftist. Possibly multicultural depending on what is meant by that. I was explicitly taking position against multicultural appeasement, after all. I would disagree with relativist for much the same reason.

Philosophically speaking I'm a moral relativist, but that hardly means that whether or not slavery exists in a culture doesn't make it objectively better or worse, which is generally what people want to imply by saying something like "relativist". A fairly decent write-up about that subject can be found here (http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11727).

But -seriously- do you think Islam is capable of a "reformation"?
I don't see why not, and I'd argue that the Salafi movement is the Reformation (sola scriptura). ISIS isn't dissimilar to our wars of religion. If you continue the parallel then the UAE is like the early Calvinist Dutch Republic and Saudi Arabia like one or more of the larger Lutheran German states. What you mean is Enlightenment. Disturbingly, that seems to be headed in the wrong direction in countries like Egypt, Pakistan, and Indonesia. At the same time, thanks to the Internet enlightenment thought is making significant inroads into previously shut-off countries like Iran, much like how Dutch, Swiss, and Belgian printers used to print enlightenment pamphlets and books for the French market. I'm confident that we can win the war of ideas. It's just a pity that multicultural appeasement denies there's a conflict.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-05-19, 23:49:50
(Don't you wish your language had a word like that?  :)  )
We have, ennui means exactly enfado.
Maybe you find the double "n" exotic to you but I find the enfado sonority much more signifying and meaningful than a word that finishes with such "ui" sound.
Quote from: OakdaleFTL
I think that still matters, since Islam is about 700 years behind us!
By that reasoning, Christians are several thousand years behind politeists and animists...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-05-20, 02:11:51
By that reasoning, Christians are several thousand years behind politeists and animists...
Oh? Polytheists and animists have updated their beliefs? :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-05-21, 00:11:15
Islam having a reformation? Little chance.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Barulheira on 2017-05-22, 11:49:51
Polytheists and animists have updated their beliefs? :)
Yes, they have. Go to the Esoteric corner. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-05-22, 23:20:20
Oh? Polytheists and animists have updated their beliefs?  :)

For Oakdale "updating" is the demonstration of superiority. Very much Trump-American.
Moral relativism at it's best. The way up for the lower social intelectual classes, "updating".

When I get older I want to update..
Like the Beatles, when I'm sixty four....
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-05-24, 00:28:42
Ah, the Beatles. I still have a selection of their LP's.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-05-24, 07:49:39
Ah, the Beatles. I still have a selection of their LP's.
Great :up:
Let's hope you didn't miss this one from Paul McCartney:

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-05-25, 01:30:49
If that is Paul McCartney then it is a damn disgrace but will still keep my Beatles LP's.

He comes from Liverpool which has a long tradition of two sides - Prot and RC Irish tradition. The former Prime Minister of the Irish Republic John Brutin has stated on television that the Easter Rebellion was not necessary at all as the UK government had stated officially in 1914 that a government would be given to Dublin but the First World War interrupted that delaying things. The 6 northern counties did not want a break and rightly got what they wanted as Dublin got their corner.  Although the south of Ireland's new flag showed the 2 traditional colours in Ireland as soon as 1922 came what unfortunately occurred was a mass persecution of people and the non-RC population collapsed to only 2% from what had been near 30. Sad and made the remaining counties determined to stay British :)  Nowadays the old attitude has mainly gone apart from that conjured up by those neo-Marxists in the Sinn Fein. They will never run a government in the south as the population is more modern, reasonable and sensible. Good to see that the south has made progress and there was a good reason for that I would say and they and Britain are more friendly as well.  In fact the republic even dropped their claim on Ulster from their constitution and regard them for that and much else but if the North wants to remain in Britain then the SF lot can get, well, ehrm, stuffed!  :knight:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-05-26, 16:37:01
America first - literally



America first? Not always. This time fourth.



The Hand Of God REBUKES Trump

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-05-27, 01:50:13
That was total ignorance and very bad manners from Trump.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2017-05-27, 06:56:18
The last one is a joke (that is starting to spread as a hoax). Whether the person in the first two is one, is a manner of opinion, but if he is, it's not a good one.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-05-27, 23:05:52
Actually jax I was referring the very public bad manners of Trump pushing the Montenegro Prime Minister out the way!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-05-28, 09:57:01
Actually jax I was referring the very public bad manners of Trump pushing the Montenegro Prime Minister out the way!
I'd say it doesn't matter who it was unless they were purposefully blocking him. But I suppose one would hope that Trump would've at least refrained had he realized it was a prime minister... then again, they were right in the middle of a meeting of presidents and prime ministers...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-05-29, 03:18:17
Well he WOUL know the man was important and he was very ignorant doing what he did and no excuse for it as they were all G7 leaders. He was one of them just like the Montenegro leader.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-05-29, 06:30:16
Group picture of the G7 among ruins - a bad omen?

(https://i1.wp.com/www.nguoi-viet.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/GettyImages-688648610.jpg?fit=1200%2C800)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europeloop
Post by: jax on 2017-05-30, 14:26:24
What's brewing in Germany? (http://www.economist.com/blogs/kaffeeklatsch/2017/05/what-s-brewing-germany)
How to understand Angela Merkel's comments about America and Britain
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-05-30, 23:20:34
"Foreigners often get Mrs Merkel all wrong. She is not the queen of Europe, nor has she any desire to be it."

Course not... she's only waiting for Latvia to arrive and rule the entire Europe.

Of course she's acting as the Europe's leadership.
She's doing well at her analysis regarding American position under Trump but she's very wrong if thinking that anyone will accept German leadership regarding Europe defense.

It seems that we need to thanks Trump for wakening these idiots for doing what we slhould be doing already many years ago, to spend at least 5 to 10 percent of GDP each country with defense.
We are simply the most desirable target for all the new barbarians and they're already attacking.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-06-01, 13:43:15
Due to Germany's economic status in the EU she is the boss of the place even if she denies it.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-06-03, 00:26:15
You are not part of European defense anymore Rjhowie, you are part of the ennemy.
Maybe Trump will give you a medal...

I'm sure that Scotland and Ireland will remain at the European side.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-06-04, 14:15:05
May I remind you Belfrager that Ireland is NOT part of Gt Britain but Scotland IS and what the national government decides is the way things are. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will ALL be out of the EU mess. We have the high employment rate these days UK-wise and we are not in the begging corner like Portugal. Heavens if the EU wasn't there making begging bowls would be big industry in Portugal!  The Scots nationalists are a bunch of emotional freaks and the idea of being independent then going back into EU control is as silly as it damn sounds.  Anyway the majority of us north of the Border do NOT want another IndyReferendum.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2017-06-04, 15:04:01
Who killed Oetzi the Iceman? Italy reopens coldest of cases (http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40104139)

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/493C/production/_96284781_d665a56c-64f8-4164-b10f-f15144f097ad.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-06-04, 19:23:05
Oetzi (Ötzi) is still around here. He got a little bit older and fatter. BTW, his nickname is Anton. :)

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-06-05, 08:26:33
May I remind you Belfrager that Ireland is NOT part of Gt Britain but Scotland IS and what the national government decides is the way things are.
What if the national government decides that Ireland is also part of Gt Britain?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-06-06, 01:34:03
You been drinking?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-06-09, 23:12:51
Now that the idiotic Brexit makes the English to serve the idiotic Trump, maybe Europe can finaly get rid of the American fifth column, the UK.

Germans are making their moves. The rest waits for the new crematory owens.
The end of civilization.

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-06-10, 01:15:56
Can understand that living in a begging bowl country Belfrager you can get miffed into thinking negative about civilisation. Even we had to help you lot back in Napoleonic times but don't get embarrassed thanking us.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-06-13, 22:02:44
Your "country" is the biggest prostitute that ever exhisted. Old Bitch Albion.
Again, you're selling yourselves to the one who pays more.

Who cares, you are History, Little History.  Long live to modern Scotland and Ireland. You, you stay under Trump's orders.
Such is life.

Just wait for the EU's bill. That Merkel  is enough to put you in your knees, to make you pay. And she would do it, oh yes... she will.

By the way, your begging bowl is a thousand times bigger, starting with paying to people as yourself. They/you are for the millions...
We have nothing like you.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2017-06-15, 16:18:40
I expect when the DUP "confidence and supply" arrangement collapses, Corbyn will do a u-turn and take up Macron's most recent offer, @Belfrager .
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-06-15, 23:18:11
Yeah, yeah, Belfrager!

Kind of hypocritical when one looks at the state of your economy, unemployment, etc. You needed to bend the knee into Europe so you could use the begging bowls because you cannot stand on your own feet. Scotland and ulster are still in Great Britain and will remain so. The Democrat Unionists are the biggest in N. Ireland and here in Scotland the SNP lost a whole batch of seats to firstly the Conservative and Unionist Party  and then to Labour and in a small way thirdly to the Liberal democrats. hooray!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-06-16, 10:05:59
The economy grows more than 3%, the unenployment is below 10%, those are good numbers for any European economy.
We're at first with tourism growth and quality of life. At the top at health systems and life expectance. Food and wine have no rival.
Anything else? :)

In fact, we need to build a wall to stop more Europeans that wants to live here. And they're gonna to pay that wall.  :king:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-06-16, 23:48:45
Need more Prots.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-06-16, 23:50:52
Need more Prots.
What??
He wants to come in... nope, not possible. Prots are at the end of the list. Sorry pal.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2017-06-18, 23:31:40
Interesting to note (though not unexpected) that Merkel will retaliate when Cheeto Benito imposes tariffs on German made vehicles.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-06-19, 00:13:47
pity you miss the needed obvious Belfrager!. Oh and by the way I note that youth unemployment in your Iberian wee corner is massive!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-06-23, 23:21:42
I note that youth unemployment in your Iberian wee corner is massive!
Massively less than yours...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-06-25, 00:51:22
Frustrated answer.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-06-26, 16:46:35
Sweden wants more insight into Russian military training (https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=83&artikel=6723017)
Quote
Russia has been invited to send observers to Swedish defence training Aurora in September, but Sweden's Defence Minister Peter Hultqvist requests Russia in turn to invite foreign observers to the Russian training Zapad ("West") that is planned for the same time.
That's right. War is at its best as a do-it-together thing. We must cooperate.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-06-28, 00:44:01
Didn't such happen before all the  news nonsense about who was doing what?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-07-07, 23:36:56
G 20 meets while 110 policeman were hurt.

You are twenty, we are plenty.

Meanwhile, Trump/Putin gay affair keeps on going...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-07-08, 03:46:55
Well in a very practical sense one does hope they can get on.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-07-08, 12:12:36
Meanwhile, Trump/Putin gay affair keeps on going...
No pussy grabbing this time...  :(
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-07-09, 01:22:26
They actually got on well both of them as happens. Just live on hope there will be more ex-colonists who don't just gulp in what passes for media over there...... ???  8)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-07-18, 18:01:02
A not-so-flattering article about the King of Spain (http://nos.nl/artikel/2183803-spaanse-koning-juan-carlos-deed-het-met-bijna-5000-vrouwen.html), illustrated with the ex-wife of the former president of Estonia.
(https://nos.nl/data/image/2017/07/18/403972/xxl.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-07-18, 18:11:07
I find it less disturbing than the final note about elephant hunting (assuming the women weren't somehow coerced).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-07-19, 02:11:24
He is the ex-king actually having abdicated in favour of his son a while back........
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-07-20, 12:58:26
Speedy grandma :D

In Belgium a 79 years old grandma was caught driving her Porsche at 238 km/h.
source (http://www.dhnet.be/actu/faits/a-79-ans-la-grand-mere-foncait-a-238-kmh-en-porsche-596f8113cd706e263ee5c0c3)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-07-20, 14:09:48
Quote
"Ma cliente n'a jamais eu de souci avec la justice ni commis d'infraction de roulage auparavant. L'autoroute était dégagée. Elle avait des insomnies. C'est une Porsche, vous savez. Elle ignorait qu'elle roulait si vite", a plaidé l'avocate.
I don't know about quite that fast, but the basic argument holds up in my book. In some cars you can accidentally go 160 while barely even noticing.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-07-20, 16:36:39
In some cars you can accidentally go 160 while barely even noticing.
I'd say in any decent car assuming the road is fine.

160-180 km/h are normal speeds for our autobahn. In Belgium I assume you must notice the cars you are leaving behind, except you are alone on the road.
However at speeds above 230 km/h the road starts to look more and more narrow. :)
I tried once to hit the 300 mark but finally gave up because of that. It was a strange rotten feeling.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-07-20, 17:04:15
Well, actually I have no idea if it holds up for a regular Porsche as on more reflection I was thinking mostly vans or SUVs, not cars as such. But that'd be purely because I'm not used to being so high, making it feel slower.

In cars without a 6th gear (or more) there's a bit of additional engine noise, but mostly it's just things like the wind affecting you more and the feeling of speed I'm referring to.

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-07-20, 18:09:27
Well, actually I have no idea if it holds up for a regular Porsche as on more reflection I was thinking mostly vans or SUVs, not cars as such.
It doesn't have to be a Porsche or a Ferrari. :)
I was referring to cars which we use to categorize as middle class (mittelklasse) (https://www.welt.de/motor/fahrberichte-tests/mittelklasse/).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-07-20, 21:33:19
Right, I just mean that except for the rickety feeling in a 1980 Ford Fiesta I was talking about height more than anything. I kind of forgot about that part when I made my earlier comment.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-07-21, 23:42:48
I tried once to hit the 300 mark
Not too many cars, or motorcycles, can reach 300.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-07-22, 08:13:58
A few examples of series production cars (http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/ratgeber/auto/--15136908)
Don't look at the prices. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-07-22, 14:51:47
As for the price, we can always steal them... it gives more adrenaline to go 300 with a stolen car  8)

The Bugatti is impressive with those 450...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2017-09-09, 11:39:19
Emmanuel Macron, in Greece, Calls for 'Rebuilding' E.U. (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/07/world/europe/emmanuel-macron-greece-european-union.html?smid=tw-nytimesworld&smtyp=cur)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-09-10, 01:13:52
A waste of time.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2017-09-29, 14:39:14
Mapping Where Europe's Population Is Moving, Aging, and Finding Work (https://www.citylab.com/life/2017/09/european-demographics-aging-employment-migration/540084/)

(https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/2017/09/Screen_Shot_2017_09_17_at_14.09.02/c7672bb5d.png)

London is currently the youngest capital region in the EU. With Brexit, that will change to Copenhagen.


(https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/2017/09/Screen_Shot_2017_09_17_at_14.11.48/6dfad1e15.png)

(https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/2017/09/Screen_Shot_2017_09_17_at_14.13.57/f0fca099b.png)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2017-09-29, 18:06:21
Emmanuel Macron, in Greece, Calls for 'Rebuilding' E.U. (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/07/world/europe/emmanuel-macron-greece-european-union.html?smid=tw-nytimesworld&smtyp=cur)
That would require letting Greece and others go bankrupt and start again, what with them having to have the Euro and all.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-09-29, 22:51:29
There are some in Greece who feel they would be better out but the shambles is becoming routine in the country and anyway the EU on finance is not that great is it? In additino it's finances each year never get cleared when the books are done.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2017-09-30, 05:41:14
Greece may not be the issue. It will be a measure of relative power if any reform will be for the EU as a whole or for the Eurozone. France would prefer the latter, but not Germany. The countries in the EU that are not in the Eurozone are: Bulgaria, Croatia, Czechia, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, Romania, and Sweden, Four of these eight are neighbours of Germany. None of these eight are neighbours of France.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c1/d9/20/c1d920ed93fc05f76469958e8f05e428.png)


Of the original twelve eleven EU members, only Denmark is not in the Eurozone. Founding members are bold (only West Germany was among those six). Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain and United Kingdom. In addition Austria, (Greek) Cyprus, Malta, the three Baltic countries, Slovakia and Slovenia are in the Eurozone.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-10-01, 00:10:33
Well I am glad we are at long last getting out of the EU.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-10-03, 06:26:15
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fg3.nh.ee%2Fimages%2Fpix%2F1000x654%2FnKkczYbW2j4%2Fprantsusmaa-president-emmanuel-macron-leidis-eile-hommikul-aega-ka-tal-79677760.jpg&hash=d2c1eff95c57683f1c1990f63b9ae3aa" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://g3.nh.ee/images/pix/1000x654/nKkczYbW2j4/prantsusmaa-president-emmanuel-macron-leidis-eile-hommikul-aega-ka-tal-79677760.jpg)
Macron visited Tallinn Old Town. His main purpose was a date with Merkel.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fg1.nh.ee%2Fimages%2Fpix%2F1000x654%2FykRClhG37f4%2Fangela-merkel-ja-emmanuel-macron-kohtusid-eile-enne-pidulikku-ohtusook-79665884.jpg&hash=f1390eef6a9442fedee71f1485a4c1b2" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://g1.nh.ee/images/pix/1000x654/ykRClhG37f4/angela-merkel-ja-emmanuel-macron-kohtusid-eile-enne-pidulikku-ohtusook-79665884.jpg)
Estonia is currently chairing the EU.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-10-05, 01:33:02
All this European thing of kissing and cuddling we are damn stuck with.It doesn't matter who is "running" Europe the system is a farce and still in economic woes.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-10-08, 12:24:51
Catalonia is a complex problem for me.
At one hand, anything bad for Spain is good for us but at the other hand I can't support such an imbecility and have to stand for Filipe VI.

Well, it's not the first time Madrid gets our help.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-10-09, 01:31:40
King Filipe VI was right and I think that the idea of independence is wrong. Although the area might be comfortable financially a number of financial ones are planning to move if they go ahead with this daft attempt at separation.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-10-09, 23:45:21
King Filipe VI was right and I think that the idea of independence is wrong.
Are you Catalan or Spaniard at least? In the meantime I even start wondering if you are a Scot. :)

It's funny or rather sad how in the past, the EU was actively promoting the split-up of a state (Yugoslavia) when it fitted its interests by referring to the right to self-determination for every nation. For Catalans this right doesn't exist anymore, period.
Instead, our brought into line mainstream is feeding us with fake news (https://twitter.com/malditobulo/status/917142085613920256/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eldiario.es%2Fcatalunya%2Fpolitica%2FMINUTO-Diada_13_685361458.html).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-10-10, 00:56:53
Yep krake, I am a scot and a Scottish Unionist and have no time for the would-be Brigadoons who want independence her which isn't going to happen! The Scottish Nationalists lost MP's to the Labour Party but the Conservatives did even better with the Liberal Democrats getting a small improvement. Even in the last Local Town Council elections the Scots Tories (Conservatives dear ex-colonist) swooped right across Scotland. The nats were always rubbishing the Tories yet that corner did so walloping well in local and nationally. Anyway there is another area in Spain mumbling about independence. Watching interviews on Channel 4 think it was here the parties interviewed in the streets of Barcelona were leftist.

Anyway I am glad we are heading out of the EU as it was a controlling nonsense thing and President Obama should have kept his damn nose out of the process. The European union is only partly democratic and is an economic failure a matter that has been running for several years now. Each year when the books are being checked f or being balanced they cannot complete it and that is a damnable disgrace.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2017-10-10, 09:04:19
The predominant diplomatic principle is fait accompli.

Of course it's up to Spain to decide whether Catalonia should be independent or not. By the look of it the ruling PP coalition is of the opinion that Catalonia should be independent, at least they act that way. Bit like the Scots, the Catalans seem lukewarm about independence, so it is up to the Madrid government to stoke up the fires. Rajoy too shall pass, and overall the Catalans seem comfortable.

The EU wasn't much involved in Yugoslavia, nor in Czechoslovakia, until it reached the fait accompli stage. Some EU members were more proactive, but basically it was a post-communist power struggle unlikely to be resolved in any other way. 

Many, Americans in particular, have a romantic view of the rebel. It's better for the self-image to look at their founding fathers as rebels rather than as traitors. Then again, most coutries are founded on treason, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia inclusive, at the cost of millions of lives in WWI. Had they lost, they would have died as traitors. They didn't, so fait accompli.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-10-10, 23:11:40
Nonsense.

Catalonia is not some kind of another Portugal able to defeat Leon and Castille (Madrid) continually for more than one thousand years.
Catalonia will never be independent.

Catalonia is a product of EU funds injected by Madrid to them, they will collapse the moment the funds and companies, both industrial and financial,  leaves the place. As it happens right now.
Bye bye "independence".

A collapsing Spain is too much good to be true. And at the same time the biggest danger and horror Europe has ever faced.
Better to keep it as it is.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-10-11, 02:06:19
The Catalan thing is a damnable farce. Te "referendum turnout was 40% of the population and even with 90% of that turnout is not a basis for anything. The financial corner has said they will leave the place if it continues this departing nonsense. On top of that I do not think the media reporting is very positive either. Channels with people over there to do interviews especially with politicians tend to yak to the nationalist lot and virtually ignore the other side who want to stay in Spain. That is a built-in bias from tv reporters.  One passing tv report showed the local parliament in session and the want out lot were clapping on the move against Spain but the other side sat quite so do they not count??

Another ridiculous report from here in GB was that the SNP were coming out supporting the illegal referendum and ignoring the fact about percentages. I wouldn't put that lot in charge of anything not even a public toilet. Spain is right not to lie down.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-10-11, 10:17:21
Always "for" the indigenous peoples, eh, RJ? :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-10-12, 01:16:10
 :cheers:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-10-13, 00:40:57
We'll see what happens... Spain sided with Hitler, way back when. (Of course, you sided with the communists. didn't you? :) ) The Catalans aren't really indigenous: They've only been there for all of recorded history! They need to be pets of the multicultural globalist cabal, to get street cred! Right.
You have your own opinions, RJ. But owing to a lack of intelligence which likely led to your lack of education, you can't support them with argument.

Do you even know why some Scots want to leave the union?
I doubt it.
Likewise, I doubt you ken nor care why Catalans want to secede from Spain.

History is -for you- a nondescript book that mentions relatives you never knew, and would likely spit on you -- for the obvious reasons.

I'm interested in what happens in Spain: I suspect that I have two children traveling through...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2017-10-13, 06:12:20
Many, Americans in particular, have a romantic view of the rebel. It's better for the self-image to look at their founding fathers as rebels rather than as traitors. Then again, most coutries are founded on treason, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia inclusive, at the cost of millions of lives in WWI. Had they lost, they would have died as traitors. They didn't, so fait accompli.
Speaking of traitors and rebels, I've always found it most amusing, particularly since the debate over Confederate monuments continues to rage, that the descendants of dear victors in the US Civil War brand loads of descendants of Southerners from the CW as "traitors" for having an affinity for anything to do with the South in the CW.

For instance, I enjoy hearing the song "Dixie Land" from time to time. In this era of goddamned hipsters, I have actually been called a traitor as such.

I point out that the term traitor is subjective, and as such, use the example you use above for the Revolutionary War. I also point out that in the RW, one of the issues fought over, was the main issue fought over in the CW, only in the RW, Yankees were fighting to preserve that most despicable and abhorrent institution.


[/video] http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5HeZtFH1Trg [video]
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-10-13, 20:10:46
The UK has a new enemy.
Chancellor Philip Hammond calls Brussels "the enemy".
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-10-13, 20:30:44
May I say in passing Colonel,  I pointed out a wee while back that Washington was a slave man and so was the leading light in the preparing of the Constitution and he also had relations with female ones. Lincoln was a two-faced sly man who made it plain in private circles that blacks were not to be given too much of a push in the US. Leading up the war slaves were often imported in the North! So it is rather ludicrous of people to condemn the CSA and that is that- as if the North was so damn virtuous!  General Lee was a greatly principled man and was loved by those he led and his statues should have been damn well left alone. T have the South picked on regarding black people is so two-faced. as well when one considers the way they were treated i the union Army and after the Civil War. Three out of three for "Dixie" by the way.......
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-10-22, 00:41:52
Washington was a slave man and so was the leading light in the preparing of the Constitution and he also had relations with female ones
As always, RJ, you know so little fact that even your jibes ring hollow: Jefferson had nothing to do with preparing our constitution; he was away in France as our ambassador at the time... :)
But as Knute Rockne said, "Most men, when they think they're thinking, are only rearranging their prejudices."

Speaking of which:
Quote
A new German law introducing state censorship on social media platforms came into effect on October 1, 2017. The new law requires social media platforms, such as Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube, to censor their users on behalf of the German state. Social media companies are obliged to delete or block any online "criminal offenses" such as libel, slander, defamation or incitement, within 24 hours of receipt of a user complaint -- regardless of whether or the content is accurate or not. Social media companies receive seven days for more complicated cases. If they fail to do so, the German government can fine them up to 50 million euros for failing to comply with the law.

This state censorship makes free speech subject to the arbitrary decisions of corporate entities that are likely to censor more than absolutely necessary, rather than risk a crushing fine. When employees of social media companies are appointed as the state's private thought police and given the power to shape the form of current political and cultural discourse by deciding who shall be allowed to speak and what to say, and who shall be shut down, free speech becomes nothing more than a fairy tale. Or is that perhaps the point?

Meanwhile, the district court in Munich recently sentenced a German journalist, Michael Stürzenberger, to six months in jail for posting on his Facebook page a historical photo of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, shaking the hand of a senior Nazi official in Berlin in 1941. The prosecution accused Stürzenberger of "inciting hatred towards Islam" and "denigrating Islam" by publishing the photograph. The court found Stürzenberger guilty of "disseminating the propaganda of anti-constitutional organizations". While the mutual admiration that once existed between al-Husseini and German Nazis is an undisputed historical fact, now evidently history is being rewritten by German courts. Stürzenberger has appealed the verdict.
(the rest) (https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/11205/germany-official-censorship)

How do Europeans react to this? (I'm of course asking actual Europeans...)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-10-22, 08:58:54
Quote
A new German law introducing state censorship on social media platforms came into effect on October 1, 2017. ...
(the rest) (https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/11205/germany-official-censorship)
How do Europeans react to this? (I'm of course asking actual Europeans...)

EU action needed: German NetzDG draft threatens freedom of expression (https://edri.org/eu-action-needed-german-netzdg-draft-threatens-freedomofexpression/)

As a brave American, what alternatives would you propose?
To storm The Bundestag or the EU head quarters with assault rifles?

BTW, what's about the erosion of civil rights in the USA (assuming that you did notice any, I wouldn't be surprized at all if you didn't)?
Has any American fired a single shot to sop it?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-10-22, 09:29:31
How do Europeans react to this? (I'm of course asking actual Europeans...)
Unfortunately Germany is a little bit more like America now.[1] I echo @krake. How many new bullet holes in the Capitol?
See, e.g., https://www.eff.org/issues/ip-and-free-speech
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-10-23, 11:25:46
French President's Dog Takes a Piss in the Élysée Palace During Televised Meeting



Charwomen from the Élysée Palace must consider themself lucky for serving Macron and not Caligula.
Imagine the cleanup if instead of Macron's dog, Caligula's pet would live at Élysée.

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-10-23, 22:10:40
The dog is not educated, he should had been trained to take a piss in the Bundestag.
In alternative, into Trump's feet.

Canine diplomacy it's a lost art.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2017-10-25, 17:57:55
Cheers to the EU president for trolling British PM Theresa May about Brexit.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-10-26, 03:25:26
Nice try boy but we are getting out of that shambles lot who are still in a mess...hooray!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-10-27, 20:40:14
Catalonia's political struggle for independence went pretty nasty this time. Spain has now taken Catalonia's autonomy away. The regional assembly is dissolved and the regional president is wanted for rebellion.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-10-27, 21:45:33
This article has some background info on the right to rebellionresist: http://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5102&context=journal_articles

Perhaps of particular interest is the German constitution
Quote
Gegen jeden, der es unternimmt, diese Ordnung zu beseitigen, haben alle Deutschen das Recht zum Widerstand, wenn andere Abhilfe nicht möglich ist.

Quote from: Translated on p. 1248
Article 20 (4): All Germans shall have the right to resist any persons seeking to abolish this constitutional order, if no other remedy is available.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-10-28, 01:20:36
The Silence of the Damned: Catalonia's Separation from Spain (https://www.csis.org/analysis/silence-damned-catalonias-separation-spain)
"Can you hear the silence? Something isn't right."
Quote
On October 1, nearly 900 people were injured by European police in a major European city...and there was silence from the European Union.
On October 2, ...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-10-28, 14:45:47
Catalonia as an independent country has absolutely no chance of survival and will create nothing but suffering for the population.

Financial and industrial companies are already leaving, no jobs, Catalonians will be no European citizens without being able to circulate freely, currency will be an anecdote, no more Eu funds, etc.

Basically they will turn part of Morocco...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-10-28, 23:33:16
Catalonia is one of the richest provinces in Spain in hard practice but it has no right to go on with the nonsense of being "independent." The Renumbered was illegal and what was it around 40% of the voters took part which means from the start it had a minority situation. An awful lot of people do not want to be independent and that is being ignored by these emotional idiots The EU is against the Catalonia nationalist nonsense and so are other major countries as well. It would not continue to be in the EU  nor get support either. Spain is right to take a strong stand on a damn minority.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-10-28, 23:58:17
Spain is right to take a strong stand on a damn minority.
Well spoken by a wannabe ex-colonist whos by now defunct empire enslaved once almost 25% of the world's population.  :up:


Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-10-29, 10:50:44
People forget that the first objective of the European Union is to be the most important project in the history of mankind to achieve permanent Peace amongst Nations. It has worked better than any other before.
Both Brexit and Catalonia will have to assume their responsibility in causing it's destruction.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-10-29, 18:29:43
People forget that the first objective of the European Union is to be the most important project in the history of mankind to achieve permanent Peace amongst Nations. It has worked better than any other before.
Both Brexit and Catalonia will have to assume their responsibility in causing it's destruction.

I count it as a flaw and mistake of European Union that it is doing absolutely nothing in the Catalonia situation. As a minimum, EU should try some negotiating diplomacy, to send some observers and mediators. With a proper moderate-key mandate, it would not turn the situation worse. Such practice at mediating internal nuisances is very much needed for EU.

As it is now, the people have the (correct) impression that the EU is led by the top political clique for the top political clique, nothing else. The leaders only bark orders to the lower levels. When they don't know what to bark, they pretend there is nothing happening that would deserve their attention.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-10-29, 21:36:29
I count it as a flaw and mistake of European Union that it is doing absolutely nothing in the Catalonia situation.
Course not, it doesn't encourage suicide.

Belgium offered asylum for the traitor that's more than enough.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-10-30, 00:57:46
May I remind you S ANOTHER  limited ex-colonist that you really do have a damn nerve when you consider that you have had a global corporate empire for decades. In addition undermine countries that do not wish to be controlled by you or even invaded. So you have no high moral ground as a base and I would also remind you (again here) that all those countries in the British Commonwealth of Nations organisation  were formerly in our great Empire. They joined it by themselves so dear man proverbially put that in your intellectual pipe and smoke it!  :D

As for the tripe from Belfrager on the greatness being implied on the European Union it is hardly that wonderfully democratic being controlled by non-elected people. Neither is it out of it's Euro currency probs. Another thing constantly ignored by Euro supporters is that each year the EU parliament cannot balance the books or get them okayed and that is okay? Thank Heavens we are getting out. :up:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-10-30, 06:54:21
Course not, it doesn't encourage suicide.

Belgium offered asylum for the traitor that's more than enough.
Belgium is offering Puigdemont a political seppuku. It should not have gone this far. When there's a referendum in EU, it should not look like a civil war.

EU too often fails to act where necessary and acts where unnecessary in damaging ways. Failing to act: Yugoslavian wars and Crimean crisis. Acting: Building gas tubes with Russia in the midst of the Baltic Sea and hoping for visa freedom with Russia, ignoring ecological and the far more grave geopolitical concerns; political blockade on Austria when Haider's party won elections, even before the government had been formed. In the light of those swift and sweeping policies and actions, it's eerily in character that the EU is silent when democracy needs encouraging. 
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-10-30, 07:43:37
Who's the greatest beneficiary of the Catalonia conflict?
Wer profitiert eigentlich vom Konflikt in Katalonien? (https://www.heise.de/tp/features/Wer-profitiert-eigentlich-vom-Konflikt-in-Katalonien-3875655.html)

(The article is in German but those interested can use GoogleTranslate (https://translate.google.com/). The translation won't be perfect but decent enough to get a picture.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-10-30, 09:20:56
EU too often fails to act where necessary and acts where unnecessary in damaging ways. Failing to act: Yugoslavian wars and Crimean crisis. Acting: Building gas tubes with Russia in the midst of the Baltic Sea and hoping for visa freedom with Russia, ignoring ecological and the far more grave geopolitical concerns
I agree with your first sentence but your examples are totaly wrong, probably driven by pathologic Russophobia.

- The EU didn't fail to act in the Yugoslavian wars. On the contrary, it did act as a catalizator.
By the split up, the EU extended its influence and markets while the USA got its new military bases in the region.
- Speaking of the Crimean crisis - by supporting the putch in the Ukraine, the EU and its US ally where the architects of the Crimea crisis in the first place.
- Europe needs gas and it needs it at an affordable price. It's a fact. Another fact - the Ukraine is not a reliable transit route. One billion ersis couldn't change this facts for now.
- Ecological concerns because of Russian gas? What would be your alternatives? Atomic energy? Coal? Gas obtained by fracking?
- Geopolitical concerns? Geopolitical concerns of whom? Geopolitical concerns of the USA and yours?
A few countries within the EU are indeed opposing the Baltic route but not because it's gas from Russia but because they hoped that the gas route will cross their own country and they will benefit from transit taxes.
Besides, it's up to each country to give up Russian gas and import wherever from.
As for geopolitical concerns, the EU did the dumbest thing possible by driving Russia in China's arms.
After all that's what the USA was striving for and I wonder how they'll try to solve the dilemma...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-10-30, 10:14:04
- The EU didn't fail to act in the Yugoslavian wars. On the contrary, it did act as a catalizator.
By the split up, the EU extended its influence and markets while the USA got its new military bases in the region.
When the EU acts in USA's Kielwasser, I count it as failure to act, because in such cases the EU is only acting re(tro)actively, with delay, and by someone else's playbook, not proactively and independently.

- Speaking of the Crimean crisis - by supporting the putch in the Ukraine, the EU and its US ally where the architects of the Crimea crisis in the first place.
Again the EU was not proactive and independent here. It was outright paralysed.

- Europe needs gas and it needs it at an affordable price. It's a fact. Another fact - the Ukraine is not a reliable transit route. One billion ersis couldn't change this facts for now.
Not just that Ukraine is an unreliable route, but also that Russia is an unreliable provider. That's a fact that one billion krakes couldn't change. Which is why the EU should have had a totally different foreign policy with regard to both Ukraine and Russia - independent of USA. Eating from Putin's hand does not work and will never work. Everybody knew that before the worst happened, but the EU learned it the hard way by being part cause to the worst,[1] and I still don't think they learned it properly. For Germans and the French, Russia seems sufficiently far away, so they think they can afford continued stupidity.
  
- Ecological concerns because of Russian gas? What would be your alternatives? Atomic energy? Coal? Gas obtained by fracking?
You are a big rich country, you will have to invent your own alternatives. The gas tubes in the Baltic Sea endanger the ecology of the sea for those who depend on it for life while there is no benefit from the tubes to us (Poland and the Baltic countries), political, ecological or economic.

This is the idiotic suicidal EU I am talking about: Despite everything, give all the money to Putin and blatantly urinate on your own members and interests. On the positive side, at least this is fairly consistent, so we have a good idea where we stand.
 
- Geopolitical concerns? Geopolitical concerns of whom? Geopolitical concerns of the USA and yours?
Russia has always been an aggressor in the region: Abkhazia and Transnistria were frozen conflict zones for so long that it was apparent that Putin was seeking for an expansion of military activity, and then it happened with Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. These are the kind of geopolitical concerns. Rationally, none of this can be of any interest to the USA, but all of it is directly relevant to the EU, if the EU cares about its members and neighbours, about human rights, and - perhaps - about the security of its gas and oil sources. But of course, the EU is too stupid to demonstrate any actual care about anything or at least to be able to secure gas and oil for itself without pissing on itself.

Crimea and Eastern Ukraine is the worst for the time being, but it will still get worse.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-10-30, 18:44:08
Russia has always been the aggressor?? What a mind controlled load of lack of knowledge that is.

We got the usual control guff from America hinting that the Russian Federation would invade the Baltic States. Head shaking nonsense and pushed by America the world's greatest interferer and manipulator of countries. And if you don't agree with the country you can expect subtle propaganda and nonsense. Ukraine is as corrupt as Hell and owed Russia a massive amount for power supply but of course just ignore the points.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-10-30, 19:30:31
Russia has always been the aggressor?? What a mind controlled load of lack of knowledge that is.
Let's put it this way: Has England/UK ever been the aggressor?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-10-30, 22:21:30
@ersi
I won't reply to your usual Russia rant. It gets tiresome and ridiculous over the time.
Just some reminder for you:
Quote
For Germans and the French, Russia seems sufficiently far away, so they think they can afford continued stupidity.
Don't expect neither Germany nor France to tailor their policies to fit your pathologic beliefs. ;)
Quote
You are a big rich country, you will have to invent your own alternatives.
Is Estonia out of any problems so you are moving to teach Germany?
I can assure you that whatever we will invent or not, you'd be the last person we would take lessons from.
BTW, good luck with your shale gas. :)
Quote
there is no benefit from the tubes to us (Poland and the Baltic countries), political, ecological or economic.
Keep in mind ersi that Poland and the Baltic states are part of the EU and not vice versa.
To formulate it more directly - we couldn't care less if Poland and the Baltic states don't need the tubes.
Quote
But of course, the EU is too stupid to demonstrate any actual care about anything or at least to be able to secure gas and oil for itself
Well, Germany did try once to secure gas and oil from Russia. Hmm, as you know it didn't end very well, neither for Germany nor for the Baltic states.
As for your pathologic fear to get overrun by the red army - WTF do you think Russia's benefit would be? The Holy Grail hidden in Kersti's bed?
Relax, you are safe even if you are in the possesion of the Holy Grail. President Trump takes care of you as Obama did and NATO tanks are on the alert to crush anytime the bolshevik invador of your nightmares. ;)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-10-30, 23:38:47
What a bunch of lunatics.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-10-31, 06:12:45
As for your pathologic fear to get overrun by the red army - WTF do you think Russia's benefit would be? The Holy Grail hidden in Kersti's bed?
We have a difference of opinion here. In my view, countries that overrun other countries have a serious pathology to deal with, more than those that get overrun. I am not speculating here. Both Russia and Germany have done this in history, so I remain unfazed by your plain assertions that have no basis.

What would be the benefit for Russia? Well, what was the benefit last time and the time before that? Benefit or not, I am talking about historically recurring events. It's called knowing your neighbours - by their actual behaviour.

And I note how from EU geopolitics you turned into something country-specific, as if there were no EU that must consider its own geopolitics. The facts remain: The Baltic countries are EU members, Russia is not, so a non-pathological EU would keep in mind Baltic interests and not eat from Putin's hand. But the EU has failed at judging Russia's character very badly, even overriding the warnings of Baltic experts who are supposedly EU members. And the EU constantly falls for US trickery too. Such is the pathological character of the EU.

To formulate it more directly - we couldn't care less if Poland and the Baltic states don't need the tubes.
I know: EU does not care, USA does not care, Merkel does not care, Putin does not care. They do whatever idiotic comes to their head and, once it's in their head, they will not listen to reason. This is exactly the pathology.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-10-31, 11:40:12
I know: EU does not care, USA does not care, Merkel does not care, Putin does not care. They do whatever idiotic comes to their head and, once it's in their head, they will not listen to reason. This is exactly the pathology.
Yeah, this is how you see pathology and it doesn't come as a surprise. ;)

- The EU couldn't even afford to care. Energy supply for the EU is too important. It can't be conditioned to Baltic and Polish resentments.
Of course, every EU member state has the right to voice its oppinion but that's it. Neither you nor the Baltic states or Poland have the authority to decide wat's best for the EU. At least not yet. As soon as the Baltic states and Poland will become the driving force in the EU, things will change. Be patient till then.
- The USA cares a lot. So you are wrong again. It has lot of understanding for your resentments. It even fuels them whenever it can. After all you can't ignore useful idiots. It will try to hinder the Baltic tube by all means. Imagine Putin urinating in the tube.  :o
Clean US shale gas instead of dirty Russian gas. America first!!! So there is still hope for you. :)

A good example worth to follow by the EU would be the Ukraine. They don't import coal from the separatists anymore.
The USA agreed promtly to offer a helping hand. Now Ukrainians combust US coal which is as good or even better since the smoke contains democracy particles. Only minor disadvantage is that US coal is more expensive. Ya know, business is business.
Now the Ukraine has to pay more than the dubble amount of the price they did pay the separatists for best quality anthracite. The price is also almost 50% higher than Russian coal would cost. But who cares if you live in such a rich country like the Ukraine and you get the chance to teach Putin a lesson. ;)

BTW,
the funny part, the separatists are selling now coal to - guess whom?
Poland  :no:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-10-31, 13:43:45
As for your pathologic fear to get overrun by the red army - WTF do you think Russia's benefit would be? The Holy Grail hidden in Kersti's bed?
Isn't the right question something more along the lines of "WTF do you think Russia thinks its benefit would be?"
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-10-31, 14:59:20
Neither you nor the Baltic states or Poland have the authority to decide wat's best for the EU.
Regardless of any authority to decide, there are some glaringly obvious geopolitical facts that intelligent leaders would observe. EU is very stupid, so I personally don't want any authority in it anyway.

- The USA cares a lot. So you are wrong again. It has lot of understanding for your resentments. It even fuels them whenever it can.
Guess who fuels resentments here far more than EU and USA combined? Russia. To get the real picture, you need to look past emotions. Unfortunately at critical moments, Germany and France rode on the wave of euphoria, Merkel hoping for visa freedom (and even for Russia's membership of EU - a worse lunacy than Ukrainian and Turkish membership, which are insane ideas enough) and France selling warships for Russia's Black Sea fleet, so they had it easier to take over Crimea.

Yes, resentments are bad. Euphoria is equally bad. This is why I stick to facts.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-11-01, 01:40:40
You are being brained ersi by the standard well organised propaganda regarding Russia. That country is NOT the most dangerous place on the planet.  Anywhere that dares to challenge the routine world controllers is done in!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-11-01, 12:27:22
An interesting consequence of... (of what? was it the Brexit?) ...well, of something, its the absolute economic miracle at Southern countries. In one day into another, Greece has disappeared from ruin radar, Cyprus must be heaven in earth and Portugal, oh my God, Portugal turned an absolute lesson about economical success.

Clearly, there's no such thing as economics, everything a fraud controlled by globalist obscure pressures, affecting the everyday of hundred of millions without any explanation. What's published by the media turns truth. No place for memories, no place for reasoning or questioning.

In such living scenario everything is possible, the post modern paradise for the human race slavery.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-11-01, 13:08:15
I helped the cause by buying some apples from Portugal. :P
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-11-01, 13:30:05
An interesting consequence of... (of what? was it the Brexit?) ...well, of something, its the absolute economic miracle at Southern countries.
It's a consequence of the very thing that you point out. Namely,

Clearly, there's no such thing as economics, everything a fraud controlled by globalist obscure pressures...
Economics is a fraud, so it was just an illusion that Southern European countries were on the brink of economic ruin. Also, it is just an illusion that there is currently some sort of economic miracle going on.

Over the years, I have come to the following realisation concerning  economy/-ics. Economy as trade is one thing. Economy as bookkeeping is another. Economics as taught in universities is still another thing. Economic and fiscal policies as lead by the governments is still another thing. Monetary policy as steered by central banks is still another thing. And none of them bear any direct relation to each other, but economists (and politicians, bankers, lawyers, ...) are under the false impression that they do.
Title: Economical success
Post by: Barulheira on 2017-11-01, 13:45:19
Absolute economical success? Google "Cristiano Ronaldo". :king:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-11-01, 14:41:56
@ersi I entirely agree with what you said. What worries me is the total lack of reaction from the populations.
This bovine acceptance will lead us all into the slaughter house.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-11-03, 08:29:04
Sorry to be so late getting here... I think Bel and ersi are mostly right. Which is why I remain a conservative: The Marxist conception of Man as "Economic Man" is too flawed to maintain a decent society.

(My views of Islam are remembered? :) Or should I repeat myself? Suffice it to say, Man as Slave is little better than Economic Man...)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-11-03, 09:22:51
Which is why I remain a conservative: The Marxist conception of Man as "Economic Man" is too flawed to maintain a decent society.
This is not conservatism. It is just anti-Marxism. Conservatism is a positive ideology with a positive agenda; you only dabble in negatives and anti-ideas.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-11-03, 10:35:51
I don't much bother with Highschool debaters. That's true.

Tell me again, how wonderful and even brilliant were the chapters refuting Christian and ancient scholarship by Islamic reasoning! But remember: Islamic reasoning slept for at least 700 years; then, it died.
Or do you think Qutb was a genius? :) He was a scared little boy, mostly afraid of women... Have you read his works?

Why did it die?
The answer is simple: It had nowhere else to go, nothing left to accomplish -- other than the end of the world.

Is that your goal, too? :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-11-03, 11:10:20
What are you talking about? Is it related to the current topic? Some other topic? Related to anything?

I guess it's a regurgitation of some "conservative" pundit drivel you happened to read, either the latest you read or whatever you vaguely remember for now. I hope that at some more lucid moment you understand how little it concerns me. Namely, it doesn't concern me at all, just like it does not concern the topic at hand. 
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-11-03, 15:44:47
It's just like you, ersi, to forget books you've recommended to others... Perhaps a few years seems a long time, to someone so young as you? Or are you now thinking of yourself as old and, hence, feeble-minded? No matter.
Sad to see that your reading ability has waned so...
Which is why I remain a conservative: The Marxist conception of Man as "Economic Man" is too flawed to maintain a decent society.
I suppose either way -too young or too old- you find a simple statement too complicated.

So, I'll restate what I said: Bel had it mostly right; ersi, as usual didn't even know what he was saying. (Does Polly want a cracker? :) )
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-11-03, 16:51:04
Were you so petted that you thought life
 was only that, or a series of blows?
 Did your youth not tell what everyone knows?
You'd have learned more, had you taken a wife...

Disputation is fine for a school boy,
 where it serves no purpose and has no weight.
 But out in the world it is love or hate,
bile or understanding... Which brings you joy?

I think I can answer where you can not:
 Try as you might, you prefer your petting;
 and you'd as soon lie to yourself, letting
the pleasures of childhood tie you to rot.

The ways of the world are oft sad and cruel...
You see only the wooden-sword. You'd duel!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Forgive me, all: I've recently finished reading George R. R. Martin's first volume of "A Game of Thrones". (I make no other apology... :) )

Some time ago i had Jaybro read a short story of mine: His first -and only- complaint, as I remember, was that it was too short. But I told all that needed to be said, and -in fact- padded it! Was it Somerset Maugham who said something like: "Writers are ghouls"? Eating the dead does not appeal to me; but when I was young I wanted to be a writer.
It appeals to me less, now. I know I'll never be...
Perhaps I have no imagination, eh, ersi? :) I won't try to tell others' stories. You can chide me for that.
But my dead are still so dear to me that I can't let them go: My lopsided love reins me in -- a knee of respect rather than a knee given a steed.
I can't let them go? I won't give them to others! I don't have the talent; I don't have the urge...
I don't need to be petted.
I had enough of that when I was young.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-11-03, 17:46:14
It's just like you, ersi, to forget books you've recommended to others... Perhaps a few years seems a long time, to someone so young as you? Or are you now thinking of yourself as old and, hence, feeble-minded? No matter.
I haven't forgotten. It's just that it has nothing to do with conservatism, Marxism, or Europe. It's very much like you to bring up things so that there's no rhyme, reason, context, connection, or coherence.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-11-04, 00:59:12
It's very much like you to bring up things so that there's no rhyme, reason, context, connection, or coherence.
Yes, Oakdale is a dadaist. The last of American dadaists.
Unfortunately, America is too small to him so he desperately needs our attention.
His poetry is a bit weird, but I like to read him in a creative way. Don't expect a conversation by the rules.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-11-05, 22:51:37
Spain as a tradition of death penalty with the "garrote".
Reserved for cases like these.

You don't know what the "garrote" is and I'm not in the mood for explaining you.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-11-06, 04:06:46
Spain [h]as a tradition of death penalty with the "garrote".
I think you switched threads too soon: Did you mean to reply here (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=230.msg76357#msg76357)?
Of course I know what a garrote is: It's a French device for strangling someone to death quietly, when one doesn't have the strength to do with his bare hands... Don't tell me you'd take pride in inventing it? :(

Let's go back to the other thread, if you want to talk about such things. Europe is too busy trying not to hurt anyone's "feelings" to defend herself... There won't be enough men willing to take to the gutters to fight, will there? :( But Portugal will probably be safe enough.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-11-06, 08:04:51
Spain as a tradition of death penalty with the "garrote".
Reserved for cases like these.
You missed to mention "torture" among those traditions.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-11-06, 10:57:19
Puigdemont doesn't have to be locked up as long as he abides by the following rules:

* No leaving Belgium without explicit permission.
* Steady place of residence.
* Show up for questioning.

https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2017/11/05/puigdemont-onderzoeksrechter/
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-11-06, 14:17:16
Rajoy headed for escalation from the very first moment.
He might get at the end what he asked for. So far about Spanish democracyship, courtesy of Merkel and Macron.
AFAIK there are preparations for massive demonstrations in Brussels for the sixth december.
Everybody is welcome... Basques included.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-11-06, 21:51:00
Now there are people in the Spanish Basque Province stirring up like the leftists in Catalonia. The Catalonia would-be independence is a nonsense on principle. The un-official referendum involved less than 50% of the regional population.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-11-07, 00:14:55
Puigdemont doesn't have to be locked up as long as he abides by the following rules
Wrong, according the treaties he must be immediately delivered to Spanish authorities to be judged under the Spanish justice, in the place where he made the crimes he's persecuted for, that's my interpretation.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-11-07, 00:24:07
Of course I know what a garrote is: It's a French device for strangling someone to death quietly, when one doesn't have the strength to do with his bare hands...
Of course you don't know as I said. A garrote is not that.
The garrote is a device consisting in a mix of strangling and perforation of the neck for separating the spinal medula at the same time, at the last turn of the tourniquet. Not so sweet as you imagine.
I think you switched threads too soon: Did you mean to reply here (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=230.msg76357#msg76357)?
What's the problem with the threads? I'm posting correctly. To Europe what belongs to Europeans, to America what belongs to Americans.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-11-07, 01:50:56
And to people who can't be bothered to pay attention, the occasionally bemused replies... :) (Must be that Iberian "macho" thing: Never admit that you're wrong; you might have to learn something!)

What's going on in Europe now is the nullification of the Reconquista ... Will Portugal resist? Or submit...?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-11-08, 07:18:57
Now there are people in the Spanish Basque Province...
A Spanish Basque Province?
If the Basque Country is a Spanish Basque Province what are then Scotland and Northern Ireland?
According to your diction they must be two English provinces within the UK.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-11-08, 18:52:06
I groan at you as I thought you were a more knowledgeable man from you-kn ow-where! Scotland has ALWAYS been a country.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-11-08, 23:13:52
Basque Country
There's no such thing. Simple autonomic region in Spain and nothing in France.
Sorry to disappoint you "Etarra Krake".

I admit they are entitled to be the most autonomic of the autonomic regions of Spain. Very strange people with a mysterious linguistic.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-11-08, 23:19:26
Scotland has ALWAYS been a country.
It existed before the Garden of Eden! You tell them, RJ!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-11-08, 23:44:49
Basque Country
There's no such thing.
@Iberian smartass

País Vasco = Pays Basque = Basque Country = Baskenland
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-11-09, 11:29:53
País Vasco = Pays Basque = Basque Country = Baskenland
The question is whether a Spanish autonomous region qualifies as a country, not what word they stick on it. For example, how does it compare to Sint Maarten (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sint_Maarten) (a country within the Kingdom of the Netherlands) or Greenland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland) (a country within the Kingdom of Denmark)? :P
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-11-09, 12:21:10
País Vasco = Pays Basque = Basque Country = Baskenland
The question is whether a Spanish autonomous region qualifies as a country, not what word they stick on it.
It depends on what you mean by "qualifying".
As an ethnic group with its specific cultural and historic identity they meet all the prerequisites as a nation for self-determination and such to have their own state if they wish so.
If you mean by "qualifying" the acceptance of Spain or some other countries who are acting out of pure self-interest then they obviously don't 'qualify'.
Self-determination turns out to be an empty phrase even for the most influential EU members. If it serves geopolitical and economic (self)interests it gets hailed, if it doesn't it gets nailed.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-11-09, 12:40:21
It depends on what you mean by "qualifying".
Neither. I mean exactly what I asked without any hidden meanings. Is it currently a country by a reasonable definition of the word or does it just so happen to be called a country? In the latter case, there would be "no such thing" like @Belfrager said.

The Netherlands is full of concrete examples. Holland, Gelderland, Friesland, Zeeland... all of them clearly have "land" in the name, and in German you would say that they indeed were historically Länder. By your earlier logic they would be Wood Country, Gelder Country, Frisia Country and Sea Country.[1] But there is no sensible definition of country in which they are currently anything other than provinces regardless of the historical name they still maintain.
Wood Country and Sea Country... aren't we inspired in naming things.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-11-09, 13:59:34
This is a point where it would be sensible to have two separate words to denote two different things, the sovereign entity versus entities regardless of sovereignty.

In Estonian there's the word "riik", borrowed from (Low) German (or Swedish, close enough) versus "maa" (=land; most names of our counties end in "maa"). Finnish and Latvian have the derived words "valtio" and "valsts" and, as much as I know other languages, this is where sensibility ends.

Making sense of these important concepts seems to be a thing of small/conquered nations. The rulers/conquerors/occupiers are not interested in making sense of it. They may have many words for region or province or colony, but not any for the ruled domain as a whole, unless we count English words like "domain" and "realm" but they feel awkward precisely because there's resistance in the language to directly denote the concept in question. Such resistance is not there in Finnish or Estonian or Latvian. 

The closest term for it in English is "independent nation", but the connotations of "nation" open another can of worms.

Estonia and Latvia used to be historically divided into the provinces of Estland, Liefland and Kurland. Those were ruled over by Deutschland first, Russland later and Sverige in between. So there's hardly a distinction between the ruling land and the ruled land in language, except that the world-aware people know of course whether they are living in a province or in the "Hauptstadt". I find it also telling the way in Swedish the (governing) state is called "stat" and the city is "stad", implying that the city must rule over the countryside, whereas Estonian word for the city ("linn") historically meant a fortification, where people seek shelter when the country is being ravaged.

Anyway, "country" as in Basque Country should be fairly innocent, not necessarily implying any political ambitions, even though the people there of course have a unique identity deserving of proper recognition.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-11-09, 14:48:05
In Estonian there's the word "riik", borrowed from (Low) German (or Swedish, close enough) versus "maa" (=land; most names of our counties end in "maa"). Finnish and Latvian have the derived words "valtio" and "valsts" and, as much as I know other languages, this is where sensibility ends.
A koninkrijk (King's Reich) or keizerrijk (Emperor's Reich) encompasses various landen or heerlijkheden (Herrschaft).[1] But besides the requirement to supply soldiers for crusades and other such autocratic hobbies the autonomy of a country within the Royal German Empire was rather large. The self-proclaimed Third Reich, by contrast, employed puppet governments and military occupation.

I find it also telling the way in Swedish the (governing) state is called "stat" and the city is "stad"
Both refer to standing. State developed from Latin status (social figurative standing), stat from regular Germanic standing (physically standing). The countryside also stands physically. For example, a luxury farm is called a hofstad or hofstede (English: stead). Not to be confused with the other hofstad, the court city. Amsterdam is the hoofdstad, the head city or capital,[2] while The Hague was once the hofstad, the court city, currently still the seat of government.

Hof itself means court with pretty much the same connotations, from enclosed space to an environment with nobility to a place with judges. It's an enclosed space (hence hofstad in the sense of farm, a physically standing place -- stad -- with a court -- hof -- around it), which by extension means the court with nobility. Perhaps at some point in the past it referred to the actual physical court that just so happened to be slightly more important than other courts.
Or better yet, landsheerlijkheden.
In Antwerpish that would be a hootstad, much like in English.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-11-09, 17:38:49
It depends on what you mean by "qualifying".
Neither. I mean exactly what I asked without any hidden meanings. Is it currently a country by a reasonable definition of the word or does it just so happen to be called a country? In the latter case, there would be "no such thing" like @Belfrager said.
A country by reasonable definition would be a sovereign state.
If I speak about "País Vasco = Pays Basque = Basque Country = Baskenland" I don't mean a souvereign state and this should be obvious for everybody.
No smartass can assert that "País Vasco" the term used even by Spain, simply doesn't exist.
However one could argue that a more appropriate term for "País Vasco" would be "Basque territory/land annexed by Spain".
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-11-09, 17:41:56
You sound very serious. :lol:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-11-09, 17:45:48
A koninkrijk (King's Reich) or keizerrijk (Emperor's Reich) encompasses various landen or heerlijkheden (Herrschaft).
But rijk in Dutch does not seem to be an independent word, because koninkrijk and keizerrijk refer to aristocracy. When you need to turn to a republican regime, you say vrijstaat for some reason. Surely staat has more currency as independent word than rijk, right?

German Reich has more potential as independent word, but is thoroughly discredited due to Third Reich. In Estonian there is no such unfortunate connotation,  it's a normal everyday word.

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-11-09, 17:58:43
Reich = empire
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-11-09, 18:00:46
We do? That's news to me.[1] :) I'd say that in Modern Dutch a rijk refers to something rather large and except for America mostly outdated (het Britse Rijk, het Duitse rijk, het koloniale rijk, het handelsrijk). In other words, it simply means empire. A state feels less size-bound.
Freestate has an eighteenth or nineteenth century colonial independence ring to my ears. But there are also a couple in Germany.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-11-09, 18:07:49
Frankreich :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-11-09, 20:14:01
Yes, and Oostenrijk. Although that's kind of two older uses simultaneously. I think it's originally from a time when rijk was generally still a lot more generic, and at the same time it obviously used to be a real empire with all the good and bad.

The regular rijk still lives on as well, for example in our rijkswegen (https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijkswegen_in_Nederland) (national expressways, like Interstates in the US). There are also provincial expressways. Het rijk is not the empire but simply the national government. There's also het Rijk van Nijmegen, which is more like a district or a county. Except that Nijmegen is a vrije rijksstad, a free area city, as in free from any sort of lower aristocracy under direct rule of the Holy Roman Emperor only.

So yeah, it's definitely not as simple as rijk is empire. Context is important. There's no weirdness whatsoever about this (https://www.nu.nl/groningen/4998299/stad-provincie-en-rijk-geven-klap-compleet-plan-zuidelijke-ringweg.html?redirect=1) headline: "Stad, Provincie en het Rijk geven klap op compleet plan zuidelijke Ringweg Groningen" (city, province and national government agree to complete plan regarding southern ringroad for Groningen -- maybe something for that other topic around here).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-11-09, 20:52:46
During the Czarist era, the central government began to be referred to as "the Crown" in many contexts. In Soviet times it persisted. Now some people call the EU rule "the Crown".

Just a fun fact. Totally fun.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-11-09, 23:11:05
No smartass can assert that "País Vasco" the term used even by Spain, simply doesn't exist.
However one could argue that a more appropriate term for "País Vasco" would be "Basque territory/land annexed by Spain".


Such imbecility, a German pretending to have a clue about Iberian Nations.
No clue about Iberians, no clue about Nations, no clue about Países, no clue about anything at all.

Simply making a foolish image while talking about leftist folklore.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2017-11-20, 10:37:24
New thread, The comings and goings of the European Union (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=2927.0)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-11-26, 14:57:55
Languages in Europe as seen in the news. For the convenience of you-all, I have set the video to start at the most important language of them all.



Some of the languages are represented weirdly. For example the Albanian bit (at 12:00) shows news from Voice of America with such a thick American accent that you don't get the right idea about how the language really sounds.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-11-26, 16:15:49
- Different language families -
It starts with Portugal which is part of a language family. In that language family one and the same language appears twice.
My question: Which language appears twice? :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-11-26, 16:50:24
I think that was Romanian that had a cut of plane at the middle of the new's take.
Don't remember Italian...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-11-26, 16:54:00
Congratulation  :up:
It was indeed Romanian but it has nothing to do with "cut of plane at the middle of the new's take".
Assuming that you don't speak that language, can you tell us why it was Romanian?
Now it should be very easy, for an European at least. ;)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-11-26, 17:10:23
I don't speak Romanian but I can understand half of what they say since it's a Latin language with many similar words.
It seems I paid attention to the wrong half...  :-[
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-11-26, 18:10:39
Romanian because it's spread out across two countries: Romania and Moldova. But this is a trivial factoid.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-11-26, 18:37:03
Apparently not quite so trivial factoid, at least not for those who included the same language twice in the same language family.
After all it was about laguage families on TV. Wasn't it? ;)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-11-26, 19:20:42
After all it was about laguage families on TV. Wasn't it? ;)
Specifically TV news, and the problem there is that each country has its TV, even though two countries may have the same language, and then there are languages that maybe don't have a TV or barely have it (Basque, Saami, etc.).

The maker of this video would have shown himself more knowledgeable, if Moldova and Romania had followed each other immediately, but as it is it it is good enough compared to some other completely disorganised videos that I saw.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-11-26, 20:56:06
The maker of this video would have shown himself more knowledgeable, if Moldova and Romania had followed each other immediately, but as it is it it is good enough compared to some other completely disorganised videos that I saw.
That problem applies to several the language families though, not just the Latinate ones. (E.g., where's Norse? Or rather, what's it doing there?)

It has timestamps at the bottom, so as far as a YouTube video goes I'm happy. The most annoying thing in these kinds of videos is having to search for something specific yourself.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-11-27, 16:16:13
That problem applies to several the language families though, not just the Latinate ones.
There is a bit deeper problem: Is it more important to provide samples of languages (in that case, where is Basque, Saami, etc.) or of countries (in that case, where is Switzerland, Belgium, etc.)?

We may think that this video is a sloppy compromise, but actually it's the best among a bunch that I sat through. Nobody has done a better one yet. Either this one is good enough for the time being or we dudeperfects must make a better one.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2017-11-28, 08:59:14
Languages in Europe as seen in the news. For the convenience of you-all, I have set the video to start at the most important language of them all.

It's more or less

https://youtu.be/r_AJbEoArkU

one language we speak, Standard Average European.  Europe is the (sub)continent with the least linguistic diversity in the world. We can probably blame the Romans and other empires for that.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-11-28, 09:25:13
Debunking a myth - Russia's "annexation" of Crimea

Researchers from a German institute found out that the vast majority of people in Crimea would vote for the status quo in a repeat referendum. (http://www.cetusnews.com/news/Overwhelming-majority-in-Crimea-today-would-still-vote-to-join-Russia-%E2%80%93-German-survey.BkjuXeqeG.html)

Quote
Asked directly, "How would you vote if a referendum about Crimea joining the Russian Federation was held today?" 78.8 percent of respondents in Crimea and the city of Sevastopol said they would vote "the same as in March 2014." Only 2.4 percent said they would make a different choice, while 6.8 percent declined to answer the question.


In case you wonder, the "German institute" the above article is referring to was established by the German Bundestag (https://www.bundestag.de/).
Such findings will hardly make their way into our guidet 'free' mass media and even Google will take care that such news get buried so they can't be found easy.

BTW, a more comprehensive article in German language can be found here (https://www.heise.de/tp/features/Separatismus-Auch-jetzt-wuerden-noch-fast-80-Prozent-der-Krim-Buerger-fuer-die-Sezession-stimmen-3902899.html).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-11-28, 09:42:02
It's more or less [...] one language we speak, Standard Average European.  Europe is the (sub)continent with the least linguistic diversity in the world. We can probably blame the Romans and other empires for that.
The video actually says that the hypothesis has been tested and it does not hold. But I don't blame you, linguistic statements are pretty subtle.

@krake
Polling has no effect on whether Russia annexed Crimea or not. Looking at the timeline of the relevant historical events does that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2017-11-28, 10:37:07
@ersi
So polling and the right of self-determination of Crimeans isn't relevant.
What's relevant to you is the biased propaganda spread by our mainstream. No problem for me - go for it.
The polling demonstrates clearly that it was the free will of Crimeans to secede. They would vote for the secession today as they did in 2014.
Without Russians securing the referendum in 2014 it would have been turned by the fascist putschists into a bloodshed.
I know, some people feel frustrated because that bloodshed was prevented...
So far about the myth of Crimea's 'annexation'.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2017-11-28, 11:43:28

The video actually says that the hypothesis has been tested and it does not hold. But I don't blame you, linguistic statements are pretty subtle.

It doesn't say that at all, but obviously we don't speak a single language. Just as obviously there isn't as much variety in Europe as there is elsewhere in the world. On the third hand the languages we've got, that have survived the onslaught of empires through the millennia, are generally healthy. Taking the assumption that half today's languages will be extinct by next century, very few of those will be European. 
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2017-11-28, 12:02:20
When Ukraine and Russia became independent countries Crimea was recognized by Ukraine, Russia, and the rest of the world as an integral part of Ukraine. No number of Russian military annexations will change that.  Crimea is clearly and absolutely Ukrainian by international law.

Eventually fait accompli might kick in, but the Russians would have to wait a very, very long time for that to happen. Morocco's annexation of (and de facto control of most of) Western Sahara is still not recognized 38 years later. Indonesia's annexation of East Timor at about the same time wasn't recognized and today it is an independent country.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-11-28, 12:13:28
Taking the assumption that half today's languages will be extinct by next century, very few of those will be European.
All of that depends on the definition of a language. We're generally a lot quicker to call some African language a language than our own. It's hardly controversial among linguists to divide the West Germanic continental languages into Franconian (Dutch), Low German (aka Low Saxon) and High German (aka Standard German). Mainstream German thought, however, would regard Low German as merely a dialect (and Nazi-era Germany would have the same be true of Dutch). When it's some native African languages we're significantly more impartial observers as far as that goes, but we're oddly overcompensating to boot.

The Chinese "dialects" are obviously quite distinct Sinitic languages. But over in Africa there are plenty of languages that we'd call dialects over here. Of course the famous quip is that a shprakh iz a dialekt mit an armey un flot (mostly notably perhaps Denmark and Sweden) and with dialect continuums many distinctions are arbitrary, but that's not a problem provided the arbitrary distinctions are sufficiently consistent. However, there's an important difference between language consolidation (i.e., various dialects becoming a more standardized national language like in Europe) and language extinction. The former is a process we can observe in Flanders today, while the latter is something that the Belgian state attempted in the 19th century.

Eventually fait accompli might kick in, but the Russians would have to wait a very, very long time for that to happen. Morocco's annexation of (and de facto control of most of) Western Sahara is still not recognized 38 years later. Indonesia's annexation of East Timor at about the same time wasn't recognized and today it is an independent country.
Indonesia also annexed West Papua thanks to US meddling. https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB128/ The Netherlands had learned its lesson from the late 1940s humanitarian fiasco (we would've won the war but we'd have been the bad guys). Like a true communist regime, the US came up with the euphemistic "Act of Free Choice."

NB Tu quoques are not a justification for anything Russia did or does.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-11-28, 12:15:26
So polling and the right of self-determination of Crimeans isn't relevant.
If there were an ethnic group called Crimeans, it would be. And there are rules how a referendum for self-determination should take place, for example it should not take place under a foreign occupation, all local representatives as far as possible should be participating, international observers should have access to the procedures. None of this was true in case of Crimea: The Crimean parliament was occupied by gunmen, under those gunmen they shifted the planned referendum several times several months earlier, many members of the parliament were blocked from the relevant voting in the parliament and they declared the current state of affairs illegal.

To you, of course, all this matters nothing. Even the fact that there are no Crimeans in the relevant sense whose self-determination is best served by Russian annexation. But there are good reasons why international organisations don't recognise this referendum.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2017-11-28, 12:47:27
All of that depends on the definition of a language.
Then by all means let's define a language. I think the definition is conceptually clear enough, but realities on the ground make it tricky.

The core of the definition is mutual intelligibility. Problems arise when one observes that some people are better at intelligibility of things and others are less so, and that intelligibility is often asymmetrical due to sociopolitical reasons. This is why there are attempts to define mutual intelligibility in terms of what it should be rather than what it is and there are also attempts to quantify things.

The usual way to empirically quantify language boundaries is by mapping isoglosses. Mostly you will get a pretty good picture with distinct lines. The "Charlemagne area" may be a thing in typological terms, but it's certainly not a thing in lexical and morphological terms.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2017-11-28, 13:59:16
The Chinese "dialects" are obviously quite distinct Sinitic languages. But over in Africa there are plenty of languages that we'd call dialects over here. Of course the famous quip is that a shprakh iz a dialekt mit an armey un flot (mostly notably perhaps Denmark and Sweden) and with dialect continuums many distinctions are arbitrary, but that's not a problem provided the arbitrary distinctions are sufficiently consistent. However, there's an important difference between language consolidation (i.e., various dialects becoming a more standardized national language like in Europe) and language extinction. The former is a process we can observe in Flanders today, while the latter is something that the Belgian state attempted in the 19th century.

I am fine with considering Scandinavian to be one language, in fact I do it myself. There is a continuum if you travel from Western Norway to Eastern Sweden, though with a fairly clear discontinuity when you cross the border. The closest Norwegian and Swedish dialects are closer than the two most distant Norwegian dialects.  Swedes consider Norwegian more intelligible than Danish, and Danes consider Norwegian more intelligible than Swedish as well. That is somewhat interesting as there was a dialectical branching all the way back to Old Norse a millennium ago. Back then Norwegians and Icelanders spoke the Western dialect, Danes and Swedes the Eastern. Furthermore, while Norway was partially isolated from the other two, the Danes and Swedes spent that millennium battling each other over which French-speaking German should be their king.

It goes down, I think, to army, navy and tv channels. Like Italian standardised on the Florentine dialect, Swedish standardised on the Stockholm dialect, Danish on the Zealand dialect, Newly independent Norwegian half on a mix of older Danish and eastern dialects and half on "pure" inland dialects. One and a half century of schooling and half a century of television has lead to the dialects as spoken in Copenhagen, Oslo and Stockholm dominating the rest, and Oslo is closer to either of the other two than Copenhagen is to Stockholm.

The Sami languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_languages) are more typical of the languages at risk in the world. It is a small number of speakers over many languages/dialects, where all but the largest one are at risk. Sorbian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbian_languages) would be another typical candidate.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-11-28, 15:07:50
The usual way to empirically quantify language boundaries is by mapping isoglosses. Mostly you will get a pretty good picture with distinct lines. The "Charlemagne area" may be a thing in typological terms, but it's certainly not a thing in lexical and morphological terms.
For "German" there's a pretty decent overlap. :)

Anyway, we don't need to define a language, although I happen to think the isogloss method works well enough. What I was going to say is that to have an informed opinion is how a language was defined for that statement that half of the world's languages will go extinct and how it was applied. But a slight bit of logical reflection led me to realize that as far as government support goes there are probably no more than a few hundred languages at the very most that can realistically survive in the long run under current conditions, even if they have over a million speakers. I mean, several of France's regional languages had (I repeat: had) more than a million speakers each, yet it would make perfect sense to call their equivalents in a country like Brazil endangered for the exact same reasons. It wouldn't surprise me if Brazil's non-Portuguese languages were significantly more endangered.

So if we assume there are a few thousand languages (I seem to recall being taught there are some 5000) then logic dictates far more than half of those are in fact endangered. Even if we assume that number should be reduced to a mere 1000 or so by slightly different definitions.

Calling it languages is probably one of those things meant to sound dramatic in order to appeal to the public interest, but as someone slightly more informed than average it got my attention in the wrong way. Quibbling over the definition of language used is but a red herring. An ongoing and upcoming mass extinction of linguistic diversity is undeniably logical regardless what you call it.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2017-11-28, 17:09:18
For Brazil and Ethnologue we got this list (https://www.ethnologue.com/country/BR/status) and graph:
(https://www.ethnologue.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/graphs/20/full-BR.png?itok=73Vk7vfS)
We can consider 6b-9 for endangered, while 10 is already dead.

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-11-28, 20:19:20
The abbreviated explanation of the graph seems to be at this link: https://www.ethnologue.com/profile/BR
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Barulheira on 2017-12-05, 12:24:59
I should have known that Brazil has been annexed by Europe (again).
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-12-09, 23:06:04
You  were always annexed by PORTUGAL, Never by Europe and defended from us from Dutch and French thiefs.
Thanks to that, our bonomy and a traitor kING, You are a NATION.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2017-12-21, 02:22:12
..


Germans, & the EU, fear huge job losses because of US tax reform.



Source:      Handelsblatt Global (https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/germans-fear-huge-loss-of-jobs-from-us-tax-reform-865577)     
Quote
While Americans are anxiously awaiting full details of the tax bill now being finalized in Congress, German economists are warning that the changes sought by President Donald Trump mean that significant amounts of new investment and jobs will shift from Europe to the United States.

"The tax competition will have a new dimension," said Christoph Spengel, chairman of the corporate tax department at the University of Mannheim. Mr. Spengel, who is also a research associate at the Center for European Economic Research, and a group of tax experts at the university have done a detailed comparison of the two countries' tax systems and published a report under the heading, "Germany loses out in US tax reform."

Clemens Fuest, who heads the Ifo economic think tank, also said he believed German business would suffer. "Investments and jobs will migrate to the US," he said.


President Trump is movin' on with his   "America First "   Pledge to Americans.

Being that all the EU Nations voted against the USA recently on the Israeli Capitol of Jerusalem issue, the President is mulling over cutting aid to them, starting with Germany,  just to show the EU who needs whom.  

He is also contemplating cutting UN funding, for all projects, by 50% for one year.

(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/thumbs/crystal-ball--small.gif)  The European Countries will start, slowly at first, but start they will to accept Jerusalem as the capitol of Israel. 

US funding that arrives every year may be in the balance, but by accepting Israel's claim for Jerusalem individually, they may be thanked with continued  American Economic Gratitude. 

If the UN doesn't understand which side their bread's buttered on, the other 50% of US funding for all projects may start to dry up sooner rather than later.

They may also be looking for a new home, if they don't mind their manners.....May I suggest Bonn as a possible alternative to Manhattan?

President Trump does not follow the UN's lead, nor Europe's.

They may eventually fall to the wayside & wither unless they follow the US President's strong  "lead"  for Jerusalem acceptance.

The President doesn't see the UN action the other day as a "Trivial Matter", but he sees that the UN has taken America's generosity for granted for far too long.

America First!    (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/usa-flag-89.gif)  (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/CapWave.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/signsandflags2.gif) 


 
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-12-21, 08:52:16
US funding that arrives every year may be in the balance, but by accepting Israel's claim for Jerusalem individually, they may be thanked with continued  American Economic Gratitude.
Investment is about 50/50. 2561.2 €bn European investments in the US; 2436.4 €bn US investments in the EU.

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/united-states/
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2017-12-21, 15:24:05
I thought I had seen some truly deluded takes on Jerusalem, but this was an original tack. To recap:

The political, economic and military situation is unchanged. This is mostly pandering to the crazies. It's great for the crazy Muslims and the crazy Jews, neither of whom matter much in the US, and the crazy Christians, who do. A bit like ISIL; though with a different narrative (i.e. their reading of the Book of Revelation), they too want to hasten Armageddon and the end of the world.

It marginally shift the balance from the "get on with it" crowd to the "we must be 50% more crazy or God will forsake us" crowd. Annoying, distracting, sure, but nothing compared with the other issues of the day.

To Europeans this matter more because the Middle East is part of our neighbourhood, like the Caribbean is part of the US neighbourhood. The distance from Rome to Jerusalem is 2285 km, to herein Södertälje the distance is 1944 km. Helsinki is closer to Jerusalem than it is to Lisbon. Jerusalem is 380 km (235 miles) from the EU border.



The American influence on Europe is waning, and waning faster than I hoped. I think the US had a very positive impact on Europe in the 19th and 20th century, and should have had it in this century too.  
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-12-21, 18:36:11
Well firstly on that passing comment from jax on American influence in Europe I am glad it is waning so hooray.As for tht weirdo that the USA elected as President what a head-shaking man. He has said one thing before elected then another when elected. I have no issue with the the idea of a non-politico being elected in principle but this man is something else. Now he is threatening to stop dishing out money to countries because they are supporting the UN on the nonsense of trump declaring Jerusalem to be the Zionist capital. Typical or corporate run America about controlling countries so you either support the system or heaven help you. The huge cuts for the corporates will please them as they run America and the shortage of money will be added to the trillions of debt the country has so it is not as straightforward as bellowed about. Ridiculous.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2018-01-19, 08:36:33
Quote from: Mark Twain
History doesn't repeat, but it surely rhymes.

UKRAINE ON FIRE a documentary by Oliver Stone.

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-01-19, 19:30:26
@krake But it's a documentary made by Americans. How can you trust this?

Oliver Stone is good with portraits. Not so good with fact-checking.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2018-01-20, 09:22:30
@krake But it's a documentary made by Americans. How can you trust this?
Bear in mind that moral integrity and IQ don't hinge on someone's nationality, race or color of the skin!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-01-20, 09:43:05
Bear in mind that moral integrity and IQ don't hinge on someone's nationality, race or color of the skin!
Moral integrity and IQ are the reasons why I reject the documentary.

For example, at 3:07 it says that Ukraine borderland between east and west. At 3:37 it says Ukraine has been the pathway for western powers when they tried to conquer east. Well, how about the opposite direction? Because isn't that what "borderland" means? And later in the documentary Putin appears to be presented as one of the foremost authority on Ukrainian affairs. Why, given the absence of e.g. Merkel?

I also reject the depiction of the deposition of Yanukovych as a Banderaist coup. I happen to know the history and the current state of affairs better than the documentary presents it. The only value of the documentary would be to educate dumb Americans, but unfortunately it's too tendentious to even serve that low purpose. It works as a portrait of Yanukovych though, just like Oliver Stone's documentary on Fidel Castro works very well as a portrait. Stone is good with portraits.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2018-01-20, 10:40:52
Moral integrity and IQ are the reasons why I reject the documentary.
You are referring to your own moral integrity and IQ. Don't you?  :left:
Thus, feel free to reject this documentary. It's your right. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-01-20, 15:28:40
You are referring to your own moral integrity and IQ. Don't you?
Obviously I meant the same integrity and intelligence as you did. And I gave examples so there should be no question about it.

Sometimes I forget who you are. Thanks for reminding.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2018-01-20, 18:32:24
Obviously I meant the same integrity and intelligence as you did.
Nope!
I didn't refer to people with a pathologic russophob obsession.
Those are special cases, better suited to be discussed in a medical forum.

BTW,
no need to thank me for reminding you about your obsessions.
You have my sincerely compassion for them anyway.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-01-20, 20:41:47
no need to thank me for reminding you about your obsessions.
I had somehow began assuming that you have a few % of credibility and you deserve a few % of good faith. Thanks for reminding that you have none and deserve none.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-01-21, 22:06:37
This is Europe. The above discussion is a perfect example.
But no matter the divergences we are used to be the top of the world. I'm afraid those times are over.

I don't believe we'll resist for long.
Maybe is time to start changing our attitudes.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-01-22, 05:00:12
This is Europe. The above discussion is a perfect example.
But no matter the divergences we are used to be the top of the world. I'm afraid those times are over.

I don't believe we'll resist for long.
Maybe is time to start changing our attitudes.
I think Trump is handing Europe another chance. If Europe still has the balls, we can become a self-driving force on the world arena once again by moving in everywhere where Trump is moving out. And Brexit strengthens the opportunity, because UK always served as a Trojan horse of USA.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-01-22, 07:06:10
Yes, I agree.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-01-22, 10:30:56
Me three.

At present it's more China than us though.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-01-22, 15:30:44
I* dare say that the countries in Europe who are incapable of looking after themselves will think the EU wonderful as long as the begging bowls are filled.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2018-02-02, 12:06:22
From the Skyscrapercity forum (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=144901865#post144901865)

Quote from: Sesto Elemento
The Jan. 2015 French census has been published, so we now have the data for Toulouse and Bordeaux from Jan. 2011 to Jan. 2015, like the other metro areas in the list).

This is the update, fastest growing metro areas of more than 1 million inhabitants (all data from Jan. 2011 to Jan. 2015):
1- Oslo metro area (6,920 km²; 1.3 million inh.): +1.83% per year
2- Stockholm metro area (6,526 km²; 2.2 million inh.): +1.70% per year
3- Bordeaux metro area (5,613 km²; 1.2 million inh.): +1.61% per year
4- Toulouse metro area (5,381 km²; 1.3 million inh.): +1.58% per year

So no change at the top. Oslo, Stockholm, Bordeaux, and Toulouse are the 4 fastest growing metro areas in Europe (excluding Russia and Istanbul).

Beyond these 4 metro areas which dominate the rest of the European metro areas, we find (all data refer to Jan. 2011-Jan. 2015 period, except otherwise indicated):
- Munich metro area (4,697 km²; 2.7 million inh.): +1.46% per year (between May 2011 and Jan. 2015)
- London metro area (INSEE definition) (3,976 km²; 10.7 million inh.): +1.32% per year
- Zurich metro area (1,551 km²; 1.5 million inh.): +1.31% per year
- Berlin metro area (5,421 km²; 4.5 million inh.): +1.30%  per year (between May 2011 and Jan. 2015)
- Helsinki metro area (3,698 km²; 1.4 million inh.): +1.29% per year
- London LUZ (8,922 km²; 13.6 million inh.): +1.23% per year

Beyond these, we have the Lyon metro area (at +1.16% per year), the Vienna and Dublin metro areas at slightly more than +1.1% per year, and then several other metro areas at less than +1.1% per year.

Of note, the Geneva metro area (which had 887,900 inh. in Jan. 2015) grew by +1.64% per year between Jan. 2011 and Jan. 2015. It's the fastest growing Francophone metro area in Europe at the moment (on par with Montpellier, which grew by +1.65% per year between Jan. 2011 and Jan. 2015 and now has 600,000 inh. in its metro area). Munich is the fastest growing Germanophone metro area Europe, and London is the fastest growing Anglophone metro area in Europe.

What's noticeable is the extreme decentralization of growth in Francophone Europe, the somewhat decentralized growth in Germanophone Europe (but still favoring the largest metro areas), and the super centralized growth in Anglophone Europe (which is probably unhealthy, like Francophone Europe before WW2).

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-02-09, 20:52:23
I thought "Made in Italy" on a piece of clothing basically meant "it's mostly okay" but this article from 2013 tells a different story.

https://www.fashionunited.nl/Nieuws/Leads/50.000_Chinezen_werken_illegaal_in_de_Italiaanse_textielindustrie_2013123143281/

Related article in English from 2016: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/02/italys-biggest-chinese-community-clashes-with-police-near-florence
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-02-09, 21:15:32
What does "okay" mean to you when it comes to clothing? Does it mean "not done by Chinese"?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-02-09, 21:31:44
It means in compliance with European labor laws.

http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/18066/out_of_sight_erik_loomi
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-02-09, 21:59:10
I thought it was common knowledge that in Mediterranean Europe hardly anything is in compliance with any laws. Even in Northern Europe where people supposedly follow laws closer, only state offices and banks come closest to being in compliance with laws and that is so because laws tend to be specifically written to suit them.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-02-09, 23:03:36
I thought it was common knowledge that in Mediterranean Europe hardly anything is in compliance with any laws.
How romantic...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2018-02-10, 13:15:58
I was about to say that's at least 5 years old news, but then I saw it kind of was (the Dutch article was from 2013).

I have been to Prato, outside Florence, and many other centres of production and distribution through Europe, and sampled many products Made in Italy [by Chinese]

Fairly typical the town of Prato has been on a downwards trajectory, but I thought it was a fairly pleasant town. There was some Italian resentment to the Chinese, that didn't seem well-founded, the region's economic woes (producing leather products more than textiles) was not due to the shiny new Chinese warehouses outside of town, but market shifts were to affect everyone, including those shiny new Chinese warehouses outside of town. 

In the mid-to-late 1990's and the first few years of 2000's there was pretty significant people smuggling to Europe, primarily from Zhejiang. That dropped off pretty quickly as there wasn't that much of a business case, business and jobs were not that profitable, while wages and income grew very rapidly in China. Some looked for jobs as labourers, more tried as small-time entrepreneurs, the precariat in other words. As a consequence the number of Chinese (predominantly Zhejiangese) was grossly underestimated in the 1990s (because of illegal immigration), but grossly overestimated by the time of the financial crisis (because they had by then legalised their stay and/or returned to China, while outsiders assumed that the numbers still were underestimated). In Prague the Chinese community is probably half the official number now, while 20 years ago it was probably 2-3 as many as the official number. 

I haven't been to the Prato region for a few years, but reports were that business was not great and steadily getting worse, but a few have turned it into a viable business (Made in Itay by Chinese still exists), though probably not that profitable. Paperless Chinese in Europe have had a growth curve quite reminiscent of the DND Sanctuary. If there are any left, it would only be a handful. 

I found it fascinating, particularly that the wholesale prices in Europe could be way lower than buying direct from the Guangdong factories. The reason of course was stock, they could sell in Europe goods that they couldn't sell in China. It wasn't just Chinese, but Vietnamese, Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Romanians trying their luck as independent operators. That world has almost  disappeared, they lost to Zara, H&M, and other global brands battling out with the Internet. 
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-02-10, 15:32:38
I thought it was common knowledge that in Mediterranean Europe hardly anything is in compliance with any laws.
As incorporated in "mostly okay." There's also a gradual difference between breaking the law (a technicality) and breaking the law (a bad thing).

To put it in vaguely Italian terms: not waiting for a red light, who cares. The lights don't turn off until 22 or so, but that doesn't mean they actually serve a purpose at 21:50. But ignoring a red light while there's traffic on the intersection -- bad.

More in line with the article, most might say that working an extra "black" hour is not so bad (https://www.thelocal.se/20061201/5669). In contrast, working all of your hours "black" is. And so on.

If they're truly not complying by any laws or the spirit thereof, why did they let them into the EU? :P
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2018-02-10, 16:03:07
For the most part they were like Apple or Google, making products people wanted most of the time, but not paying taxes unless they had to. The disadvantage of not paying taxes, as Apple and Google are discovering, local government has less incentive to support them.

In any case the Chinese merchants discovered the same as the locals did, it is almost impossible to turn a consistent profit as an independent operator.  The one with the best logistics system (primarily) and marketing operations (secondarily) wins. What's left is but a shadow of what it was a decade ago. Interestingly, and I do find these things interesting, the few survivors seem to operate above board. Tax avoidance gives companies a relative advantage, but there are also hidden costs in risks, costs and lost opportunities. You may save 20-25% by avoiding paying VAT, but once I made a calculation that the real savings should be something like 5%. It is questionable that this is profitable in the long run.  VAT is a clever if complicated way of taxing.

Not that it matters so much, these are still medium-sized operators. Of the 10% of businesses that have survived, I don't think more than 10% will survive the next ten years, a guesstimated 99% death rate. Everyone in the business have an eye on a way out.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-02-11, 23:15:03
VAT is a clever if complicated way of taxing.
Vat is immoral. It taxes the poor the same charge it taxes the rich.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-03-15, 23:14:03
At the European Portugal, a new law allows people to take their animals, dogs and cats, to restaurants.
Bravo, now, as a smoker, I'm officially considered by the State as being bellow animals.
Wonderful Europe.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-03-16, 07:13:10
Dogs and cats, etc in restaurants. For goodness sake!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-03-16, 10:29:04
Wasn't there a movie about rats in European restaurants? Yes, there was. (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0382932/)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Barulheira on 2018-03-16, 11:45:33
Animals don't smoke.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-03-16, 12:05:36
At the restaurant where I worked, we had a few water bowls for patron's dogs. :P
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-03-17, 01:31:52
Well in my country Barulheira you are not allowed to smoke in restaurants, pubs, public buildings,stations and so on and there is still NO reason to have dashed animal pets in a restaurant. How sily and utterly daft.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-03-17, 13:04:19
That's a fine humor remark by Frenzie that sintetizes the question, the attribution of human characteristics (and nature) to animals, moral relativism at it's best...

Law defensors try to claim that the law is not about animal's rights but people's rights - people that have animals as a part of the family. Again the same above error, animals are not part of families at the same level as humans are. The attempt of humanizing animals.

All this is fruit of today's pseudo-philosophers theories about specism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciesism). One step more towards civilizational abyss.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ensbb3 on 2018-03-17, 14:04:14
It's pretty much up to the establishment here whether or not to allow pets. Service animals excluded. Tho, what is a service animal has gotten rather loose. I'm not all for you needing a puppy by your side because your little feelings are fragile. If your "PTSD" won't let you go inside a restaurant to eat, wtf is a lap dog really helping?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-03-17, 18:42:16
That's a fine humor remark by Frenzie that sintetizes the question, the attribution of human characteristics (and nature) to animals, moral relativism at it's best...
I'm not quite sure what human characteristics those are. I always thought our own need to eat and drink was considered our "animal" quality. The dog sits at or under the table, not on a chair.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-03-18, 03:41:53
I don't mind people having a pet although I am not into such but an awful lot of them rabbit about human rights attitudes without giving a thought to common sense, health or whatever. Maybe the time wil come when they want them to stand in election.......... :o
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Luxor on 2018-03-18, 12:48:38
Maybe the time wil come when they want them to stand in election.....
That seems to have happened already.
Non-human electoral candidates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-human_electoral_candidates)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ensbb3 on 2018-03-18, 19:30:47
I'm not a pets in the house person. Some pets get treated like they are kids... They are not.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2018-03-18, 19:34:07
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-rLgNd9Yxtn0%2FVKsiRPkvE1I%2FAAAAAAAABGA%2FCTlayzo-GTk%2Fs1600%2F2a.jpg&hash=5288a0b59c9b50b2dc9f1c4d0515d30e" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rLgNd9Yxtn0/VKsiRPkvE1I/AAAAAAAABGA/CTlayzo-GTk/s1600/2a.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-03-19, 02:06:58
A pet standing in nutjobland would not be4out of place.
Title: Animals smoke
Post by: Barulheira on 2018-03-19, 11:47:28
OK, I was wrong.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/CobrasFumantes.svg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-04-25, 12:27:10
Some cash usage figures.
Quote from: https://www.ft.com/content/064bec0a-d139-11e7-9dbb-291a884dd8c6
While 92 per cent of transactions in Malta, and 88 per cent in Greece and Cyprus, involve coins and notes, the figure for the Netherlands is just 45 per cent.

More than half of Greek respondents still use cash to pay for electricity and phone rentals and about a quarter still pay their rent or mortgage in the same fashion. Hardly anyone in the Netherlands -- less than 5 per cent -- use cash for regular bills or to cover other essential costs such as gas, medical bills, insurance policies and taxes.

Germans kept the most cash to hand, with respondents carrying an average of €103 in their wallets. In Luxembourg, people carried €102, and in Austria €89.

The average French person keep just €32 on them, the Portuguese €29.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-04-25, 23:39:56
I carry no more than 10 euros each time. Less is more and I try to live in the absence of money.
Course I have to pay more at a supermarket for the week expenses. Not too much more but a little more.
Paying irritates me.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-04-26, 00:24:00
I am comfortable. Sad for Belfrager...........
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-04-29, 23:53:24
Cause you're comfortable with money, you are not an aristocrat.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-04-30, 07:37:24
Quote
Hardly anyone in the Netherlands -- less than 5 per cent -- use cash for regular bills or to cover other essential costs such as gas, medical bills, insurance policies and taxes.
Is paying in cash for any of those except medical bills (depending on what that means) even possible?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-04-30, 21:08:52
Aristocrats are different. People who amass commercial money have no class.  :coffee: (that is tea not damn coffee)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2018-05-07, 13:40:39
Newest tourist destination in Barcelona (https://imgur.com/WBkeMym)

(https://i.imgur.com/WBkeMym.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-05-07, 23:05:11
Makes me shake my head when you consider a certain Spanish Province going on about independence yet big business that gives them money threatened to leave the place.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-05-15, 22:58:13
I don't know if anyone already realized that America doesn't defend Europe anymore.

They've changed priorities. Paying a fortune to North Korea while burning out the entire middle orient with absolutely no idea about how to do anything.

So, time for a decent European Army?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-16, 09:14:31
So, time for a decent European Army?
Led by Germans, right? Or is there a Portuguese up for the task?
Title: Nuclear weapons
Post by: Barulheira on 2018-05-16, 12:24:43
Who's got the nukes?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2018-05-16, 12:46:12
 :star: France and Britain. They have a fair number too, about the same number of warheads each as China. Incidentally Putin will probably not live forever. Long-term Russia could go many ways, though I don't expect very positive developments.

(https://files.foreignaffairs.com/styles/x-large/s3/images/articles/2018/05/14/macron_merkel_trump_rtx3ahq3.jpg?itok=ICO70dra)

Why Trump Can Safely Ignore Europe
 (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/europe/2018-05-15/why-trump-can-safely-ignore-europe)
Its Leaders Readily Condemn But Never Act
Quote
But laments and indignation do not add up to strategy. The real question is not whether Europeans are pissed off but whether they will do anything in response to Trump's actions. The answer is most likely no.

Quote
In theory, Europeans could simply band together and provide for their own security.  Combined, they have as much economic weight and military power as the United States and far more than any of their potential rivals, including Russia. In practice, they still prefer relying on the United States for their security rather than relying on one another.

The United States, after all, is a distant power with only a passing interest in the internal affairs of Europe. EU countries, by contrast, are deeply involved in one another's affairs--they have multiple internal disputes that range from how to deal with their common currency to how to manage immigration. They look to their relationship with the United States not simply for security from external threats such as Russia or terrorism but also for a potential ally in their internal disputes with other EU states. Surveys by the European Council on Foreign Relations show that at least 11 European governments believe they have a "special relationship" with the United States that gives them advantages they can't get from their European partners.

Quote
In short, Europeans, working together, could provide for their own security from external threats. The problem is that they also want political protection from one another. And only the United States can provide that.

This asymmetric dependence lies at the heart of the alliance (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/2018-03-05/world-after-trump) and means that so far Europeans have had to make their peace with the Trump administration.
Quote
As of now, however, there is very little sign of that shifting. Trump's frightening volatility, his antialliance bluster, and his penchant for destroying sacrosanct international agreements have done much to bring Europeans together. But he will need to do more still before Europe finds the political will to push back.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-05-16, 17:30:18
I suspect there will be moans from Europe but not much more than that and glad my corner is getting out of that farce. Now that continent will have to find more money for the less well off countries in it's club who went into it because they were incapable of handling themselves!
Title: European Suicide
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2018-05-18, 08:12:37
..


Geert Wilders and the Suicide of Europe




Source:      GATESTONE INSTITUTE (https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/10179/geert-wilders-suicide-europe)     
Quote
    ◆ None of Wilders's speeches incites violence against anyone; the violence that surrounds him is directed only at him.

    ◆ The only person talking about these problems is Geert Wilders. Dutch political leaders and most journalists seemingly prefer to claim that Geert Wilders is the problem; that if he were not there, these problems would not exist.

    ◆ What adherents of this view, that the West is guilty, "forget" is that Islam long oppressed the West: Muslim armies conquered Persia, the Christian Byzantine Empire, North Africa and the Middle East, Spain, Greece, Hungary, Serbia and the Balkans, and virtually all of Eastern Europe. The Muslim armies were a constant threat until the marauding Ottoman troops were finally turned away at the Gates of Vienna in 1683.

Even if the Dutch politcian Geert Wilders had won and if the Party for Freedom (PVV) he established eleven years ago had become the first party in the country, he would not have been able to become the head of the government. The heads of all the other political parties said they would reject any alliance with him ; they maintain this position to this day.

For years, the Dutch mainstream media have spread hatred and defamation against Wilders for trying to warn the Dutch people - and Europe - about what their future will be if they continue their current immigration policies; in exchange, last December, a panel of three judges found him guilty of "inciting discrimination". Newspapers and politicians all over Europe unceasingly describe him as a dangerous man and a rightist firebrand. Sometimes they call him a "fascist".

What did Geert Wilders ever do to deserve that? None of his remarks ever incriminated any person or group because of their race or ethnicity. To charge him, the Dutch justice system had excessively and abusively to interpret words he used during a rally in which he asked if the Dutch wanted "fewer Moroccans." None of Wilders's speeches incites violence against anyone; the violence that surrounds him is directed only at him. He defends human rights and democratic principles and he is a resolute enemy of all forms of anti-Semitism.

His only "crime" is to denounce the danger represented by the Islamization of the Netherlands and the rest of Europe and to claim that Islam represents a mortal threat to freedom. Unfortunately, he has good empirical reasons to say that. Also unfortunately, the Netherlands is a country where criticism of Islam is particularly dangerous: Theo van Gogh made an "Islamically incorrect" film in 2004 and was savagely murdered by an Islamist who said he would kill again if he could. Two years earlier, Pim Fortuyn, who had hoped to stand for election, defined Islam as a "hostile religion" ; he was killed by a leftist Islamophile animal-rights activist. Geert Wilders is alive only because he is under around-the-clock police protection graciously provided by the Dutch government.


More broadly, the Netherlands is a country where the Muslim community shows few signs of integration. There are now forty no-go zones in the country; riots easily erupt, recently in Rotterdam, Amsterdam and Nijmegen. People recently from other countries repeatedly attack Dutch-born citizens. Some are so sure of their impunity that they publish online videos of their crimes. Throughout the country, an ethnic cleansing that Europeans are too scared to name is taking place in the suburbs, and non-Muslim residents often say they feel harassed.

Non-Muslim women are encouraged by local authorities to dress "modestly". As in Islam dogs are haram (impure), dog owners are asked to keep their pets indoors. In 2014, 2015 and 2016, Islamists demonstrated and shouted slogans in support of Hamas and the Islamic State.

Daily life has become particularly difficult for the 40,000 Jews still living in the country; districts long inhabited by members of the Jewish community have become almost entirely Muslim. Authorities recommend that Jews avoid any "visible sign" of Jewishness to avoid creating "unrest". Muslim delinquency is high; the percentage of Muslims sent to jail for various crimes is notably higher than the percentage of Muslims in the population. Six percent of the country's population are Muslim; about 20% of all inmates are Muslim. None of this is secret.

The only person talking about these problems is Geert Wilders. Dutch political leaders and most journalists seemingly prefer to claim that Geert Wilders is the problem; that if he were not there, these problems would not exist. At best, they utter fuzzy words intended to show strength; at worst, they turn their back.

A large percentage of the Dutch population is anxious; the constant demonization of Geert Wilders apparently tries to indoctrinate the people to settle for less.

A year ago, London's Muslim Mayor Sadiq Khan stated that "living with terror attacks is 'part and parcel of living in a big city." It did not used to be that way . Rotterdam's Muslim mayor, Ahmed Abutaleb used harsher words; he said that migrants had to "respect the law or go home".

In late January, the incumbent prime minister, Mark Rutte, published a full-page advertisement in several newspapers warning immigrants to "act normal or be gone"; he did not use the word "Islam". On March 11, 2017, four days before the Dutch elections, Rutte decided to send a "strong message" to bar Turkish ministers from speaking in Rotterdam. Voters who had considered supporting Geert Wilders voted instead for Rutte's People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD); he thereby secured a last minute win. Wilders's party came in second. The Party for Freedom (PVV) won five more seats than before, but will have only 20 seats, out of 150. Rutte's VVD will have 33 seats. The Labor party, Rutte's main ally until March 15, collapsed and is down to nine seats, its worst result ever. The left, however, is not retreating: GroenLinks, a party largely made of former communists and radical environmentalists won 14 seats,10 more than before. The Socialist Party won 14 seats. Democrats 66, a "social-liberal", "progressive" and multicultural party won 19 seats, almost as much as the Party for Freedom. A Muslim party, Denk (Dutch for "think, Turkish for "equality "), won three seats. The VNL, a conservative party established by two former Party for Freedom members, was beaten so severely it will have no seat at all.

The next Dutch government will be a coalition of four parties, maybe five, and probably lean more to the left than previous governments. It will certainly include Democrats 66, and could include Groenlinks.

In the years to come, the situation in the country is certin to deteriorate. The Netherlands' fertility rate (1.68 children per woman) is not as catastrophic as in Germany, Italy or Spain, but is far below the replacement rate. The Muslim birth rate is higher than the non-Muslim one. Dozens of churches close each year due to the rapid decline in the number of practicing Christians; the churches are replaced by mosques. Radical preachers keep coming and proselytizing; Islamist organizations keep recruiting. In a report on the Islamization of the Netherlands published ten years ago, Manfred Gerstenfeld wrote that "resistance to radical forces within the Dutch Muslim community is weak". Nothing has changed since that time.

What is happening in the Netherlands is similar to what is happening in most European countries. In the United Kingdom, Belgium, France, Germany and Sweden, the number of no-go zones is rapidly growing. Islamic riots occur more and more often. Ethnic gangs are growing more violent. Ethnic cleansing is transforming neighborhoods. Jews are leaving for Israel or North America.The Muslim population is sharply increasing. Radical mosques are proliferating. Islamic organizations are everywhere.

Politicians who dare to speak the way Geert Wilders does are treated the way Geert Wilders is treated : scorned, marginalized, put on trial.

The vision of the world in Western Europe is now 'hegemonic'. It is based on the idea that the Western world is guilty; that all cultures are equal, and that Islamic culture is "more equal" than Western culture because Islam was supposedly so long oppressed by the West. What adherents of this view, that the West is guilty, "forget" is that Islam long oppressed the West: Muslim armies conquered Persia, the Christian Byzantine Empire, North Africa and the Middle East, Spain, Greece, Hungary, Serbia and the Balkans, and virtually all of Eastern Europe. The Muslim armies were a constant threat until the marauding Ottoman troops were finally turned away at the Gates of Vienna in 1683.

This European vision also includes the idea that all conflicts can be peacefully settled, that appeasement is almost always a solution, and that Europe has no enemies.

It also stands on the idea that an enlightened elite must have the power, because if Adolf Hitler came to power through democratic means eighty years ago, letting people freely decide their fate might lead to ill.

The dream seems to be of a utopian future where poverty will be overcome by welfare systems, and violence will be defeated by openness and love.

It is this vision of the world that may have prompted Germany's Chancellor Angela Merkel to open the doors to more than a million unvetted Muslim migrants, despite a migrant crime wave and an increasing number of rapes and sexual assaults. The only candidate likely to beat Angela Merkel in this year's German elections is a socialist, Martin Schulz, a former European Parliament president.

In France, Marine Le Pen, the only candidate who speaks of Islam and immigration, will almost certainly be defeated by Emmanuel Macron, a former minister in the government of François Hollande -- a man who see no evil anywhere.

It is this vision of the world that also seems to have led British Prime Minister Theresa May to say that the Islamic attack on March 22 in Westminster was "not an act of Islamic terrorism".

This romanticized, utopian vision of the world also explains why in Europe, people such as Geert Wilders are seen as the incarnation of evil, but radical Islam is considered a marginal nuisance bearing no relation to the "religion of peace". Meanwhile, Wilders is condemned to live under protection as if he were in jail, while those who want to slaughter him -- and who threaten millions of people in Europe -- walk around free.

This adolescent vision is so embedded in the minds of millions of Europeans that a lot of fast growing-up will be required to eradicate it.


Get over the ignorant "GUILT" Europe, & grow some Spine..........Say NO to Multiculturalism, & deny them entry evermore.......Send the pond-scum back to where they spawned!!!  (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/Angry_threat.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/Angry_threat.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/Angry_threat.gif)



More words of wisdom from PragerU:










..
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-18, 08:18:42
Source:      GATESTONE INSTITUTE (https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/10179/geert-wilders-suicide-europe)
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatestone_Institute
The Gatestone Institute (formerly Stonegate Institute and Hudson New York) is a right-wing[2][3][4] anti-Muslim[5] think tank that ...
Honestly, I did not expect that this so-called institute would be so easily dismissible, but looks like it is. Case closed.
Title: Gatestone Institute
Post by: Barulheira on 2018-05-18, 11:46:09
That sentence describes Donald Trump just as well.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2018-05-18, 13:19:14
"PragerU" rankles a bit, as it is unrelated to Prague and it is definitely not a university, false advertisement.

Presumably the original holder of the Prager surname originally came from Prague, but that is a tenuous link. Worse is to call a "listen to us bloviate" opinion machine a university, but university is not a protected title. Maybe we should call this the DnD University?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-05-18, 14:06:35
Quote
For years, the Dutch mainstream media have spread hatred and defamation against Wilders for trying to warn the Dutch people - and Europe - about what their future will be if they continue their current immigration policies;
Oh come on, those dreaded Turks and Moroccans aren't in the top 10 anymore, and nobody even remembers the Italians who probably came in larger numbers still. There's a temporary spike in Syrians, but most migrants are Dutch, Polish, German, and from the former Soviet Union. That's not warning about anything. That's either purposefully playing on some vague cultural memory of the idea that Turks and Moroccans are the #1 immigrants (because they were in the '50s and '60s) or plain delusion. Those scary "immigrant youth" are third-gen immigrants just like me.[1]

Placing more restrictions on immigration is what we call a wax nose in Dutch. It means pretending something's an important subject but in reality it's irrelevant. In this case because the level of scrutiny applied to potential immigrants is already at such an absurdly high level.

Wilders has really gone downhill in recent years. Perhaps it's not his own fault, having had to live under constant police protection for a decade, but he seems to have lost touch with fact-based reasoning.
The influx of migrants hidden behind my thoroughly Dutch/Belgian name is mostly "good," from Germany, Belgium, and France, but there were at least a couple of Catholic apples in there -- the Muslims of the '50s and prior, so to speak.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-18, 18:47:57
Placing more restrictions on immigration is what we call a wax nose in Dutch. It means pretending something's an important subject but in reality it's irrelevant.
Immigration is somewhat of a funny topic over here. Mostly businessmen are whining that there is not enough "qualified workforce" so they demand easier ways to be able to import it. In reality, what they import is of course ultra cheap Chinese or Vietnamese labour, there are a few actual instances of such import/immigration, so for one, they can already import it based on the current work permit system, and second, "qualified workforce" is BS.

Moreover, we actually have a large unemployed Russian-speaking population living in an underdeveloped part of the country, a compact fifth or so of the territory. If that's the labour you want, why not go there? Or is that territory unbusinessable?

Then we have a fresh nationalistic party who gained some seats in the parliament lately. I would trust their nationalist sentiments, if they spoke about the situation in the country as it is. Namely, still too many openly illoyal Russians here. But instead the nationalist party ideologues talk about Syrians and Muslims which we don't have. Yes, Syrians were an enormous wave of immigrants a few years ago, and officially Estonia has accepted a few thousand of them, but de facto the refugee wave completely bypassed this country. A few hundred Syrian refugees who stayed here for a little while, ran away as soon as possible and apparently they have told about their experience to other refugees so nobody comes here anymore.

I'd be happy to vote for some sort of nationalist party, but not for one with completely borrowed rhetoric. All the rest of the parties also borrow their rhetoric, quite transparently, when you simply follow the news in neighbouring countries and USA. Sadly there is no independent politics to be had here.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-05-18, 19:41:04
Immigration is somewhat of a funny topic over here.
Wilders is doing a funny (read: sad) bait and switch on immigration. Migration might indeed be at an all time high. That is a fact... but mainly with Germans and Dutch people. Mention that fact in passing without saying the vast majority immigration (and emigration) comes from Dutch citizens, drop in a reference to Syrian refugee numbers being slightly higher than last year, even though in reality even the spike makes them only a few percent of migrants at most, and by association you've got uncritical (?) people thinking or pretending to think there's hundreds of thousands of Syrians flooding the country in some kind of metaphorical immigration wave, even though non-Western immigration is pretty much at an all time low in spite of Syria.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-05-18, 22:32:23
Wilders I would say has a point whether the usual would-be broad minded so called liberal minded democrats want to hear it or not. The Netherlands has become a very overcrowded place and here in Gt Britain especially in England there is an issue. Away back in the 1940's Britain had a population of 48 million and now well into the 60's and expected to pass 70 million. Why?

Well many of the incomers are from a tradition of large families and the clever clog experts will say that once a population, race or whatever sinks below 2.4 children decline is in existence. Much of the incomers here over the decades tend to have large families. Channel 4 News here which tends to specialise on issues with a bit more detail actually did something much of the news body-swerves and that is the amount of racial background criminology especially in london. The level of black based such events are very high indeed and happen. The news item said that experts in fields have said that there is some mental health issues involved with this area.

On a wider scale every few weeks the authorities in Britain have admitted that they are investigating or arresting people for matters of terrorism and what background? Muslim and the young. Islam violence and terror is a wider European issue. Sweden always noted for it's idea of liberalism has chronic violence from immigrants and the areas tend to be Islam full. The same has happened i Germany and look what other places like France have suffered. My population is being set for going on through 70,000,000 and all this means continued pressure on service, housing, general living things and so on. It is not being said even that figure will be the eventual target and being an island it is going to be hell here by the end of this century of not before.

Whether open minds like it or not a country or continent cannot just think things will be okay. Pressures and terror will continue to grow in Europe and my placeand that so many young people are involved does nothing to alleviate the matter. The nightmare will continue.  :irked:
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-05-19, 00:05:25
but de facto the refugee wave completely bypassed this country.
Of course, they want to go to Germany where they think they will receive a mansion, a BMW and get rich.
Refugee camps develops such "culture".
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-19, 05:25:46
Of course, they want to go to Germany where they think they will receive a mansion, a BMW and get rich.
When the refugees were interviewed, it turned out that they were indeed under the impression that everybody should get at least Adidas outfit and iPhone - that's how Europe was marketed to them in their homeland. And they want to live ideally in Germany in their own ghetto, so they can get by in their own language and habitual culture.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-05-19, 07:25:28
Wilders I would say has a point whether the usual would-be broad minded so called liberal minded democrats want to hear it or not. The Netherlands has become a very overcrowded place and here in Gt Britain especially in England there is an issue. Away back in the 1940's Britain had a population of 48 million and now well into the 60's and expected to pass 70 million. Why?
Regardless whether or not that is a valid point, when asking if we want more or fewer Moroccans I'm not inclined to think the point is secretly whether or not we want more Poles.

Most migrants quite simply aren't Muslim, nor poor in money or skills. Ignoring that most migration consists of Dutch citizens like myself moving in and out of the country, you've got your Germans, your United Statesians and your United Kingdomians. These are by and large "rich" and well educated migrants, culturally similar without even trying. You've got your Poles and Bulgarians -- mostly cheap skilled labor, there to meet demand. You've got your other parts of the kingdom (Dutch Antilles, Aruba), and then you've got your rich and/or well-educated, highly skilled people from China and India. Culturally you might think of those as more problematic, but economically speaking they do well and their children assimilate quickly. Turks, Moroccans and other Muslims barely make a blip anymore.

If immigration is indeed a problem -- which for the record is not supported by the evidence, quite the contrary -- then the actually relevant targets for ire would presumably be Poland, Bulgaria, and a collection of other relatively recent EU members from beyond the Iron Curtain and the former Soviet Union, including Estonia. More than half of all non-Dutch migrants hail from eastern Europe, while over a third consists of Germans, Americans and people from the UK. Rich Asians make up the remainder. Muslims barely even register anymore. This has been true for probably the entire duration of Wilders' tenure in the Second Chamber.

You should not be deceived by Guy Millière or Wilders into thinking that migrating to the Netherlands is simple or has been for the past two decades, regardless what the situation may have been in the '60s when we were inviting everybody over to fuel our economy. It's simple enough to immigrate if you're an EU citizen or if you originate from a select list of countries.[1] You can glean some information from here (https://www.netherlandsandyou.nl/travel-and-residence/visas-for-the-netherlands/long-stay-visa-mvv) if you care to. It should be fairly doable for anyone sufficiently rich or highly skilled, but extremely prohibitive otherwise. For instance, I just looked at the steps for a Mongolian. Step 1: get ready for a very long trip to China. That's in addition to all the regular tests about Dutch language and culture, all the tests against diseases, the income and educational requirements, etc. You need a lot of time, money, and dedication to even try, none of which guarantee that you'll be left in.

Whether open minds like it or not a country or continent cannot just think things will be okay. Pressures and terror will continue to grow in Europe and my placeand that so many young people are involved does nothing to alleviate the matter. The nightmare will continue.  :irked:
Of course there are real problems. There's a contingent of macho bully anti-Semitic homophobic violence-based culture which is contemptible, against all Dutch values, and beyond the pale. I won't claim to know what the right way to address the problem is, and perhaps neither does the government, but to make it about immigration is a wax nose. These troublemakers aren't immigrants. There might be a few hate imams we could conceivably toss back to Saudi Arabia or whatever hole they crawled out of but that's about it as far as immigration goes.

NB That's all under existing immigration and hate laws. Misbehave as an immigrant, e.g., by inciting hatred against Jews and homosexuals, and you're out.
A few European countries like Switzerland and Norway, the US and Commonwealth countries, as well as Japan and South Korea.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-19, 08:25:10
There might be a few hate imams we could conceivably toss back to Saudi Arabia or whatever hole they crawled out of but that's about it as far as immigration goes.
The inflammatory issue is more specifically refugees, a tiny fraction of immigration. In the name of hospitality, understanding that the situation is critical as it was during the Syria refugee crisis, refugees should be taken in and accommodated with little screening as fast as possible. All sorts of elements get in this way, but they are predominantly ordinary people and, as said, refugees are a small fraction of total immigration.

It becomes a persistent problem when refugee camps turn into permanent ghettos. Then hate imams may appear in the next generation. But more commonly hate imams are travelling lecturers, at least in Sweden.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-05-19, 22:15:36
Well Frenzie if you take Sweden for an example and that long stance on openness and look what the h they are getting internally. Germany is getting the same crime problems too. France is a nightmare when it comes to the level of terror. My country as indicated is having to make arrest every few weeks on planning dangerous people and so it goes on. As the importing side of people continues and grows Europe will become more and more dangerous as this century foes on. The old idea of concern for immigrants is a past stance. Islam in particular is a danger and the only consolation is that later this century we will all be gone and Europe will be an even more hell-hole as will this small overcrowded island. Islam and democracy do not go well so our future generations are going to be a desperate time.  :(
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2018-05-25, 05:37:04
Islam in particular is a danger and the only consolation is that later this century we will all be gone and Europe will be an even more hell-hole as will this small overcrowded island. Islam and democracy do not go well so our future generations are going to be a desperate time.  :(

And who said RJ & SmileyFaze  (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/friends.gif) could never see things the same!!!??? (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/chuckle002.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/big%20laugh%20007.gif)

Hey, RJ how bout it?

Howzat having some more black blood in the Blue-Blooded Royal Family ehh......feels good...dunnit!!??  (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/taunt.gif)

Seems she isn't the first though, is she..........There has been Black-African Blood flowing in ALL the Royals veins for quite some time, hasn't there RJ!?

(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/friends.gif)Well, nice to know we agree on the muzzie dilemma in Europe though..... (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/march17b.gif)  Ooh, ah, up the 'RA! ... Tiocfaidh ár lá


Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-25, 14:59:45
GDPR is even worse than the earlier cookie directive. The cookie directive littered all websites with popups. GDPR created both popups and global inbox spam.

But more of it may be coming, Consenting to cookies is driving Europeans nuts--a new law might kill the pop-ups (https://qz.com/883232/eu-cookies-and-eprivacy-directive-the-proposed-regulation-moves-cookie-consent-to-the-browser/).

I'm sure they will find a way to formulate it so that finally the whole internet gets clogged up. I'm seriously sick of the EU proving its online incompetence at every turn. Browser-sniffers and popups whining about adblocks or requesting you to participate in a poll or a bargain have always been more than enough, but the EU keeps insisting on ever more popups and more spam.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2018-05-25, 19:33:54
The GDPR mails are more a result of company incompetence, many were/are unprepared.

Opt-in (like the cookie banners) have their limits, not the least that you usually don't have a real option. The banner is just adding insult to injury. Besides the opt-ins and opt-outs, here like on Android or iOS or elsewhere, are hardly cases of informed consent.

GDPR has more teeth, as can be witnessed by the 3.9 + 3.7 billion euro 0th day court-case against Facebook and Google (https://www.siliconrepublic.com/enterprise/max-schrems-gdpr), for not having meaningful conditions of consent. 

Quote
Under the complaints, NOYB alleges that users are being railroaded or coerced into granting consent in order to access services.
"Facebook has even blocked accounts of users who have not given consent," said Schrems in a statement (https://noyb.eu/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/pa_forcedconsent_en.pdf).
"In the end, users only had the choice to delete the account or hit the 'agree' button - that's not a free choice; it more reminds of a North Korean election process.
"Many users do not know yet that this annoying way of pushing people to consent is actually forbidden under GDPR in most cases."
Schrems said the purpose of the cases is to enable better European coordination.
The crux of the matter is whether data needs to be actually gathered at all (and consent granted) in order to provide some of these services. According to NOYB, GDPR prevents forced consent and any form of bundling a service with the requirement of consent.

Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-25, 20:08:28
The GDPR mails are more a result of company incompetence, many were/are unprepared.
No. It's the administrative/political incompetence.

It's like this: News gets out about a new law/policy that everyone must comply with. But the message is mixed, so everybody tends to overreact. And, as natural in the commercial world, many try their best to turn it into their own advantage.

All in all, the EU authorities actually had no sensible message, no meaningful policy. Surely there would have been more preparedness, had there been clarity as to what to be prepared for.

Opt-in (like the cookie banners) have their limits, not the least that you usually don't have a real option.
When you don't have a real option, then it's not an opt-in in the first place. And when it's not an opt-in, you cannot say opt-in has its limits. Because we are not dealing with an opt-in!

I would have been mighty happy if the cookie situation had been solved in an opt-in manner. It wasn't. It was solved in a sweeping nonsense manner: Compulsory global bugging for no reason.

Cookies make sense ONLY when you want to log in somewhere or otherwise preserve your settings at a given website. That's when you enable cookies for that particular website - it's the browser's job. But the cookie directive caused popups absolutely everywhere, when for about 90% of your browsing cookies have no reason to be there at all, so there is also no reason for any messages about cookies.

And most popups provide you only with OK - no CANCEL and no X, i.e. no real options, just bugging annoyance. When there is no reason for the cookies, what's the reason for bugging about cookies? The websites did not come up with this nonsense. The EU directive created this. It's the administrative/political failure. Prior to the directive, I had no issues browsing the web with cookies turned off. The directive created the problem.

And GDPR does the same thing even worse. It's compulsory global bugging for no reason. When companies are told to be more careful with data about me, there is no reason why I must do something, sign something again for the companies or whatever, as if there were not enough things for me to sign and sign and sign in this world already. It's the companies that must do something, namely to be more careful with their data about me. I should not be forced to do anything - it was their fault all along, not mine. When my only plan is to leave minimal traces, why should I be forced to sign and OK things right and left?

What the EU should have done was force all internet-connected apps (like Facebook, Instagram, etc.) have dedicated cookie/history/privacy settings where Clean/Delete options truly clean and delete. Just like there is in browsers. And when you don't use a service/website, your account self-destructs in some time - like it used to be in the 90's. Internet was sensible back then.

No such joy from the incompetent EU politicians. They just make spam, popups, and unsafety explode globally.

And don't get me started on NOYB that happily rides on this confusion. NOYB is no better than any of the companies who spam everybody with their updated terms and conditions.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Barulheira on 2018-05-25, 21:23:36
The "cancel" button is the "close tab" button. :(
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-05-26, 01:15:45
I would first remind Frenzie that it was reckoned in 2010 there were about 44 million Muslims (6% of the total population), including 19 million (3.8% of the population) in the EU. What has that lot brought with them but terrorism and endangered the Continent. Here in GB every few weeks there is an arrest or two on people planning bombing and killing. You are living in cloud cuckoo land.  Another thing we discovered in Britain was the level of problems with eastern Europeans especially from Romania and Bulgaria. Islam has brought with it all that violence and affected our daily life. Added security including when travelling is thanks to them.

And now to the resident terrorist here in the forum namely the American corporate supporter.

Smiley really has a damnable nerve. From a country during World War 2 when his army had to practice  Apartheid as whites did not want black alongside them. interesting stance when we were fighting Nazi racists. The new and pretty addition to our Royal Family is fine and comes from a mixed background it should be remembered. Considering that American jails are filled more with blacks kind of says something practical. Unlike SmileyFaze I do not support murderous scumbag terror groups as he does.  When even a so-called long term advertised "liberal democratic" country like Sweden is suffering islamic crime and violence on woeful scales it shows that those from that background do not care a damn about democracy, etc. By the end of this century my own country will not be the only one suffering from that religion so will the EU.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-26, 04:51:27
I would first remind Frenzie that it was reckoned in 2010 there were about 44 million Muslims (6% of the total population), including 19 million (3.8% of the population) in the EU
You evidently took the number from this page  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe
But this page is not about the EU. It's about Europe, including Russia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, etc. where Islam is native.

In other words, you are not talking about immigrants or refugees. You are not talking about anything in particular. You're just talking.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-26, 05:41:38
The GDPR mails are more a result of company incompetence, many were/are unprepared.
It's the administrative/political problem when the companies are allowed to interpret it so that they can push all the annoyance and responsibility on the end user, instead of taking it themselves. When the companies are allowed to interpret it so that they can bug the entire world, it only makes the companies happy.

Currently, the worst offender is Forbes.com. I cannot even access it in text-mode browser (cookies and javascript off) without being blocked from the page I actually typed to go to. Never before has it been this bad.

Edit: The companies take GDPR as an absolute demand to put a barrier between the content and the user and they are thrilled to say, "The EU is making us do it." This already happened with the cookie directive. The EU did not learn from the mistake. I'm positive that they did not even see it as a mistake. In their mind, things are pretty good now and can be improved perhaps when everybody signs and accepts and acknowledges a bunch of things every time they connect to internet, and then again every time they turn a page on the internet.

From the companies' point of view, they are getting exactly what they want - advertising first, content later. It used to be advertising alongside with the content, and minimal repercussions when the user uses adblocks and filters. Advertising is their religion, and when there is a legal demand for them to stick it in your face up front before anything else, they are happy happy happy.
Quote from: https://qz.com/1289152/gdpr-has-changed-what-its-like-to-use-the-web-in-europe/
For many publishers, relatively unobtrusive pop-ups seem to suffice--some sites ask for agreement to store and track your data (like Quartz), while others simply point to privacy policies. The content on these sites remains accessible to visitors from the EU.
The last sentence is false, as proven by the image that immediately follows it.
(https://qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/1-bloomberg.png)
Obviously, the content on this site is NOT accessible to visitors from the EU. It's accessible to visitors from outside the EU only. Now I am forced to use VPN all the time to appear to be on another continent. Thanks, EU.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-05-26, 09:25:41
I would first remind Frenzie that it was reckoned in 2010 there were about 44 million Muslims (6% of the total population), including 19 million (3.8% of the population) in the EU. What has that lot brought with them but terrorism and endangered the Continent. Here in GB every few weeks there is an arrest or two on people planning bombing and killing. You are living in cloud cuckoo land.
But what's the relevance of any of those numbers when Wilders' claim is that we should make immigration harder? You can be excused for not knowing all of the post-2000 details but that doesn't mean you should say random things based on some vague feeling of unease. Back in the late '80s Bolkestein (VVD, i.e., liberals) tried to put immigration on the agenda, but without much success against opposition from Labour. Nevertheless they already managed to put a minimum income requirement in place in '93, as well as strict checks against fake marriages in '94.

Around the turn of the millennium the political climate changed completely (cf. Pim Fortuyn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim_Fortuyn)), and as early as '04 the new rules had already proved effective by reducing the kind of immigration targeted by 35%.[1] That was only the beginning, however, and it's been built up over time. Post-'07 it's become practically impossible to immigrate to the Netherlands. Even if you're from a "good" country like the US it's very expensive and hard, but probably theoretically achievable provided you've got quite a few thousands of Euros to waste on bureaucratic nonsense, as well as cultural and language tests. If you're lucky that might at least take place in your country of origin, but like I said if you're Mongolian you have to travel all the way to China.

Within that context, to talk about immigration is nothing but hot air. You might realistically have a program of not weakening immigration policy, but what would making it stronger even mean? Banning even that tiny trickle of rich or highly skilled immigrants from even attempting? It's meaningless drivel, unworthy of a Dutch politician. There's simply no such thing as immigration from Muslim countries in meaningful numbers anymore.
It's about Europe, including Russia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, etc. where Islam is native.
I would imagine there are also several million in the European part of Turkey alone.
Mainly family reunification. The not fake type.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-26, 11:46:57
It's about Europe, including Russia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, etc. where Islam is native.
I would imagine there are also several million in the European part of Turkey alone.
The source for the Wikipedia page is this http://www.pewforum.org/2011/01/27/future-of-the-global-muslim-population-regional-europe/
It says it excludes Turkey, but includes Siberian Russia.

Anyway, the relevant sentence which RJ apparently spotted, says, "By 2010 an estimated 44 million Muslims were living in Europe (6%), including an estimated 19 million in the EU (3.8%)." He should have kept reading after the comma, and not equate Europe with the EU.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2018-05-26, 17:19:00
Finally, Ireland has normality. Took them long enough.

I am no great supporter of referendums, but 2/3 of the voters with 2/3 of the electorate voting is sufficiently  clear that any other approach would likely ended up with similar result.

Ireland abortion referendum: PM hails 'quiet revolution' (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44265492)

(https://s.hdnux.com/photos/73/45/51/15620697/3/920x920.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-05-27, 00:05:39
Abortion is a crime, no matter how many referendums. The same for eutanásia.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-05-27, 00:47:16
Eh, ersi?

Whether one looks at Europe or the EU either are still large!  It is still too large a number of Muslims and their weird faith and I would again remind that the Continent has due to large numbers a dodgy futire  to cope with. Who is it that is a mass terror corner but in that tradition! And to make matters worse in the future here AND the Continent that immigrants routinely have larger families. May I also remind again that once a race or tradition falls below 2.4 kids they are in decline whereas groups like the Islamists that number is a no-no. The future IS not bright but the word 'dangerous' will continue to grow.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-27, 05:39:03
Whether one looks at Europe or the EU either are still large!  It is still too large a number of Muslims and their weird faith...
It matters a lot how you draw the borders of Europe. In Europe, Islam is irreducible at least in Albania and Bosnia, not to mention Azerbaijan and certain parts of Russia. And Islam is not any weirder than Orthodox or Catholic Christianity. Its adherents are broadly as lukewarm as Christians. Everybody has their traditions. Their numbers seem large only in West European ghettos. You don't live in a ghetto, do you? Allowing ghettos to build up is the wrong policy.

And to make matters worse in the future here AND the Continent that immigrants routinely have larger families.
This only matters when they are put in ghettos. Outside ghettos, their sense of identity dissolves and the next generation is quite well assimilated to the overall population.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-27, 05:47:12
Abortion is a crime, no matter how many referendums. The same for eutanásia.
Euthanasia is a bit more complicated, when you have a concept of mercy kill. Abortion fits under mercy kill only in very exceptional circumstances, mostly it doesn't.

Anyway, neither euthanasia, abortion, or mercy kill is a job for a doctor. It's a job for a veterinarian or, more likely, a butcher. Doctors should go by the Hippocratic oath - aim to preserve life at all times.

Another thing to consider is how the country's policy aligns with the neighbours. When lots of people want abortion and it's allowed in the neighbouring countries, then this creates travelling for economic reasons and a shadow economy back home. Economy does not care about morals, but unbalanced trade destroys both economy and morals.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-05-27, 15:02:40
Doctors should go by the Hippocratic oath - aim to preserve life at all times.
Exactly.

At a broader perspective, I simply don't recognize to Governments legitimacy for legislating about putting citizens to death under any circumstance. Our Constitution is very clear:The state shall respect and protect human life, which is inviolable.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-05-27, 17:49:04
I must say ersi that you I am afraid are near to talking guff.

Coming out with this stuff that all immigrants are out into ghettos is head shaking and would-be liberal thinking. Here in Great Britain they wanted to stay in their own communities and this happened right across England. Up here in Scotland although a smaller population there are examples. In my city just west of the city centre and southside of the River Clyde when you walk through Pollokshields which has property owning ones, etc you would think you were in Muslimland! Even the local primary school depicts that on passing the playground. Down south whole areas which are not ghettos have been taken over and that they have political representatives confirms the same.

Last week on tv Channel 4 a voice over intro to the next programmes said she was celebrating a Muslim festival and all that stuff. Does anyone come on and do that for other religions - say Christianity? Nope. May I also remind you of Sweden which by nature does NOT have ghettos but where these people want to be and what do the Swedes get. Hell from them even though as a State and people they have been generous. You have also ignored the level of numbers on the Continent and in the UK because they have bigger families and also that every few weeks we are arresting for planned terror attacks. They are NOT vanishing and numbers still going up and neither Europe nor Britain is going to have a balanced or reasonable future. My country's population is getting too high and will the experts tell us pass 70 million on this island. On top of that they give no sign that will decline and overcrowding will not just be traditionally for the unfortunate Dutch but head gradually towards 100 million. All of this effects housing, health, services and so on right now and is going to be hell by then..
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-28, 06:55:54
Here in Great Britain they wanted to stay in their own communities and this happened right across England. Up here in Scotland although a smaller population there are examples. [...]

May I also remind you of Sweden which by nature does NOT have ghettos but where these people want to be and what do the Swedes get. Hell from them even though as a State and people they have been generous. You have also ignored the level of numbers on the Continent and in the UK because they have bigger families and also that every few weeks we are arresting for planned terror attacks.
You are ignoring everything, as usual.

The fact that immigrants tend to congregate in ghettos is exactly what I said. But I am also saying that the country that takes them in has all the means to not allow this to happen. To let it happen is negligence.

And yes, the immigrants tend to breed in greater numbers, but when you don't let them congregate in their own ghettos, when you make sure that the next generation is integrated, there will be no problem. The integration is largely up to you, not to them. They may want their separate thing, but I assume you are a country with your own customs and you will have to enforce your own customs. Otherwise they will not integrate and you will get a problematic bunch like terrorists.

And the most important thing that you ignore: You think all immigrants are Muslim, or that they immigrate because they are Muslim. No, they immigrate for various reasons. The most steady flow of them, apart from the Syrian crisis, are sub-Saharan Africans. And in my own country, the problematic bunch of people are overwhelmingly Russians - that's the only obstinately unintegrated bunch that keeps causing problems.

Last week on tv Channel 4 a voice over intro to the next programmes said she was celebrating a Muslim festival and all that stuff. Does anyone come on and do that for other religions - say Christianity? Nope.
In Sweden at least there is a compact minority of Syrian and Lebanese Christians. I'm sure they are in UK too, you will just have to take note of your Channel 4 when they talk about Christians.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-28, 07:48:42
At a broader perspective, I simply don't recognize to Governments legitimacy for legislating about putting citizens to death under any circumstance. Our Constitution is very clear:The state shall respect and protect human life, which is inviolable.
Unfortunately there is no general outcry to recognise not-yet-born human life as human life. Abortion has now been part of the system for generations.

Things written down can be interpreted in a bunch of ways. It takes a good formulation accompanied with a solid tradition to enforce a specific interpretation. Take this GDPR thing, for example. Max Schrems (NOYB) says,  "It's simple: Anything strictly necessary for a service  does not need consent boxes anymore. For everything else users must have a real choice to say 'yes' or 'no'."

He is wrong of course. It has been the exact opposite ever since the cookie directive - the companies enforce a popup on you and the only option you get is to click OK to make it vanish. The EU has not moved a finger to say or imply otherwise, or to correct the prevailing practice.

The GDPR is the cookie directive overstretched so that the websites now demand your consent for everything. Each time you purge cookies and the website does not recognise you, you have to give consent again and again forever. This is how it will be from now to eternity. The EU websites do the same thing, so this is the real intent and effect of the GDPR. Max Schrems is wrong; he is only exacerbating confusion.

Right now there is this "Oath" group. Many tech sites have joined this group. The websites of this group are among the worst offenders. They don't let you see or do anything on their website unless you click OK. Just OK - to everything. A few years ago, this used to be known as obvious malpractice, bugging and trolling, but the EU has formulated it so that is now interpreted as a legal requirement.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-28, 11:40:51
Quote from: https://apnews.com/fdcf22ae6d2741aabc9be4829bacf44f
Portugal considers allowing euthanasia, assisted suicide

After legalizing abortion and same-sex marriage in recent times, Portuguese lawmakers will decide Tuesday on another issue that has brought a confrontation between faith and politics in this predominantly Catholic country: whether to allow euthanasia and doctor-assisted suicide.
Tomorrow is Tuesday.

Update: Euthanasia was "chumbada" in Portugal. Debate to resume after parliamentary elections in 2019 https://www.dn.pt/portugal/interior/eutanasia-chumbada-nova-votacao--so-depois-das-eleicoes-9391730.html
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-05-28, 22:10:06
For goodness sake ersi. I am ignoring everything as usual? Your would-be open mind is so open nothing is registering properly boy. What you do not want to hear is waffled into nonsense. I was very direct in the indication of the enormous rise of Islam in Europe and in my country. That every few weeks another arrest and#or investigation becomes under way. I was very direct in what I said about numbers, violence and danger. You waffle about Sweden when the tiny groups of Christians are NOT a problem the violence, intimidation and danger is wherever Muslims are. Sweden is modern and it did not build ghettos but the new lots got good accommodation and anything needed. The police have their hands full and Germany has had trouble - oh and look at France. Yu are living in cloud cuckoo land and throw in in that utterly stupid comment about Channel Four and the voice over I mentioned. That is FACT and was BROADCAST. Did the channel do anything similar at ester ? No it damn well did not. Everywhere Islam has flooded in their is an issue and fine you damn know it but does not fit in with your ignoring factuals.

At the rate Europe is being flooded in which is a massive cost to the place and to here it is going to get even worse.  I live on an island where the population has ramped away up and not by traditional residents as they have unfortunately lumped into below 2.4 kids. The massive housing problems, health pressures, welfare and so on are doing us no good at all and we will become overcrowded and become even more  damnable. Now the latest negative is in England where pressure on water supplies are getting to be the latest news worry. When I said that our population that decades ago was over 66 and expcted to pass 70 where the heck are they all going to live? Instead of silly immature bleatings face the hard facts that Birtian and over there in Europe there is NOT going to be a rosy future.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-05-31, 15:35:24
http://www.pewforum.org/2018/05/29/being-christian-in-western-europe/

Long study didn't read it in depth.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-31, 18:48:38
http://www.pewforum.org/2018/05/29/being-christian-in-western-europe/
Finland is counted to be in Western Europe, but Greece is out. Interesting choice of geography.
Title: Interesting choice of geography
Post by: Barulheira on 2018-06-01, 11:50:21
For your information, in the city of Rio, the Southern sector is located West.
Geography is amazing.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-06-01, 13:08:55
You'd think I didn't grow up in the north of the Netherlands speaking to many people, because supposedly the north is in the (north) east. I'm originally from what's officially called the safety region of North Holland North (https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veiligheidsregio_Noord-Holland-Noord), which sounds pretty northern to me. Historically it's known as West Frisia.

People are often quite surprised that it is in fact just as northern as the other north... except maybe for some of the extremes, but it's at the same latitude as the big northern cities like Leeuwarden and Groningen.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-06-01, 14:29:04
Finland is counted to be in Western Europe, but Greece is out. Interesting choice of geography.
That study is made by an American think tank and it's about Christianity. Americans thinks that Greeks still believe in many Gods.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-06-02, 00:18:57
Hhhm. Have just a passing interest in mainland Europe but never regarded myself as European. Visited Ireland. France once and the Netherlands twice. Hope to be back there again in the not to long future.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-06-14, 11:54:19
President of Estonia about the Netherlands (https://www.baltictimes.com/stockholm__june_12__leta__-_the_swedish_capital_stockholm_has_signed_a_cooperation_memorandum_with_latvia_on_a_joint_swedish/latvian_bid_to_host_the_2026_winter_olympics___the_cooperation_agreement_foresees_that_the_bobsleigh__skeleton_and_luge_events_wou/), "Our businesses, students and scientists work together, which for me is a clear sign that we think similarly."
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-06-14, 18:53:22
Sounds a bit like a non-sequitur. :P
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2018-07-20, 10:16:24
Good news first.
Pablo Llarena did withdraw (again) the European detention order against Puigdemont. :)
source (https://www.elnacional.cat/es/politica/auto-llarena-renuncia-extradicion_289530_102.html)

Now the bad news.
Not exactly news but rather rumors coming from supposedly well informed sources.
Julian Assange might get handed over to the UK soon.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-07-20, 22:57:33
The EU and the Brexit situation is becoming a farce especially the way Europe is acting. They ignore the loss that is going to happen in that mess club and that they are going to lose the membership fees of a very active country. Even making the Irish Border thing a difficulty.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-07-21, 08:07:37
I'd say the EU is acting quite charitably. Didn't the UK say they wanted to leave the customs union without pursuing membership?
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-07-21, 19:57:13
Charitable? Nah they are being damn awkward because someone is leaving the club that can never get it's books balanced at every check. The IMF has in passing mentioned the problem of GB leaving has on the EU. It has said that the EU is going to lose out financially on the British leaving.  The whole thing started decades ago as a business thing and grew into a political farce Although there may well be Border problems for Southern Ireland that is Dublin's unfortunate position. We are quite prepared to have some kind of "nice" thing over a free Border but it is Dublin's pals who will mess Dublin up. European countries will get some suffering business problems but that is the club they are in and those in the EU who are trying to get an even more unified US of Europe will also continue to have countries who are dragging heels on that nonsense.

It is the unbelievable groaning stretching going on by Euro brain deads. This country wants out and Brussels is going hell on leather to make it difficult. So much for democracy and rights, etc. Ireland hastened into Europe because it was incapable of doing much itself and needed the doffing of hats and stretching out the begging bowl.  In many ways it has improved itself from the days it's Dublin controllers used to treat them but there is still a Border with Britain and although we have been generous re that border they are still another country and depend on the Brussels money and control freakery.  We have been physically separated by the English Channel and as much as we like places in Europe we are fed up with being hamepered from global opportunities rather than the Brussels control freaks.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2018-07-28, 06:17:18
In a normal negotiation the parties would start with the position if everything went their and then negotiate their way towards somewhere both parties would find reasonable and acceptable. Obviously Britain would lose--it's the geography, stupid--but the loss could be contained and acceptable. 

You would expect that facing a crisis of this magnitude Britain would put national interest first, and you would be wrong. They spend far more time squabbling among themselves than solving the issues. Enlightened self-interest should lead to something relatively reasonable, but the enlightenment is mostly missing. It's ironic because usually it is the EU that is charged with being disorganised ("If I want to call Europe, who should I call?", but in the negotiation between 1 country and a conglomerate of 27, it is the 1 country that can't get its act together.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-07-28, 22:42:26
You re making too much of an excuse for the Remainers you seem to be with. It IS the EU who are making this mess going on here. Imagine a democracy having the nerve to want to leave the EU lot> A Continent farce that cannot even get it's books balanced year in and year out legally? Nit-pick and interfere. Countries there now even going against EU stances - Italy, hungary, Poland for example - and a start! We voted out and because Eurpope is in a damn huff because we want out you carp along those lines? tut, tut. I would also remind you that there WILL be repercussions for countries in Europe as well who will suffer when we leave the thing.

Europe is making it obvious they re being bloody minded not just huffy because we as a strong economy are leaving but practicing democracy.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-07-28, 23:55:54
I'd say the EU is acting quite charitably.
Adriano, a Roman Emperor, built a wall to prevent such savages of ever entering the Continent.
I hope that the Brexit puts them again behind the wall.
Isn't that beautiful...
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-07-29, 17:50:00
Well there were enough savages in Europe without that wall to stop those north of England getting in, etc. The Huns were a mass lot for example......!
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-07-29, 23:24:51
I like this hierarchy of savages, Huns being more savages than the British ones...
Unfortunately we don't have too many Huns around to answer properly.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-08-01, 00:18:22
 :D
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2018-08-01, 08:05:19
Adriano, a Roman Emperor, built a wall to prevent such savages of ever entering the Continent.
I hope that the Brexit puts them again behind the wall.
Isn't that beautiful...

Sometimes the historical analogies don't quite work out, but the flip version could. The Roman province of Britannia comprised roughly today's England and Wales, while Spanish-born emperor Hadrian built a wall against Caledonia (Scotland), and they never tried to occupy Hibernia (Ireland).

The EU famously started as the Treaty of Rome. A possible outcome of the Brexit thing is that (pro-EU) Scotland and Northern Ireland will rejoin EU as a new member country (Caledonia) and re-united Hibernia. Then those parts of UK that were part of the Roman empire would outside the EU, while those parts outside the Roman empire would be in the EU.

One more analogy. The Spanish emperor Hadrian built a wall against the Caledonians, while the Spanish prime minister Rajoy (preoccupied with those pesky Catalan separatists) would veto a Scottish EU membership.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-08-01, 11:11:03
Then those parts of UK that were part of the Roman empire would outside the EU, while those parts outside the Roman empire would be in the EU.
Indeed.
Well, in today's four blocks world I do understand European located people wanting to join the EU and they are certainly welcome.

Until now, it seems that the Brexit makes more damages inside the UK than to achieve any of its objectives. We'll see for how long they'll remain "United".
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2018-08-01, 14:00:26
The Spanish emperor Hadrian built a wall against the Caledonians, while the Spanish prime minister Rajoy (preoccupied with those pesky Catalan separatists) would veto a Scottish EU membership.

Prime minister Rajoy?
You probably meant ex-prime minister Rajoy.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: jax on 2018-08-02, 10:30:19
He's not the current prime minister, just like there isn't any current referendum on Scottish independence.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2018-08-02, 11:50:13
The actual prime minister would veto a Scottish EU membership too. For the same reason.
Franco's legacy is well alive in Spain. There is still a long way to go till democracy, even a guided one like most European countries (including mine) have.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2018-09-13, 02:09:35
Today, Europe Lost The Internet. (https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/09/today-europe-lost-internet-now-we-fight-back)

Quote
Today, in a vote that split almost every major EU party, Members of the European Parliament adopted every terrible proposal in the new Copyright Directive and rejected every good one, setting the stage for mass, automated surveillance and arbitrary censorship of the internet.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: ersi on 2018-09-13, 09:03:43
Today, Europe Lost The Internet.
Not quite yet.
Quote from: https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/12/17849868/eu-internet-copyright-reform-article-11-13-approved
The directive was originally rejected by MEPs in July following criticism of two key provisions: Articles 11 and 13, dubbed the "link tax" and "upload filter" by critics. However, in parliament this morning, an updated version of the directive was approved, along with amended versions of Articles 11 and 13. [...] The directive itself still faces a vote in January 2019 (although experts say it's unlikely it will be rejected). After that it will need to be implemented by individual EU member states, who could very well vary significantly in how they choose to interpret the directive's text.
There are so many votings on things (and even more votings on slightly amended things), that even just to be an onlooker of the process it makes one's head spin. Much more so for those members of parliament who participate in those votings. They have lost track what they are voting on, they hardly care anymore.

After the votings, final and more final, it takes a bit time for the thing to take legal effect. And a while after that the accumulating judicial practice will show what the effect is. Some laws are worded surprisingly straightforwardly, but hardly impress the court. In this case, the wording is not even straightforward. For example,
Quote from: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:52016PC0593
The proposal requires Member States to establish mechanisms aiming at facilitating the clearance of copyright and related rights in the fields of out-of-commerce works and online exploitation of audiovisual works. Whereas the proposal aims at ensuring a wider access and dissemination of content, it does so while preserving the rights of authors and other rightholders. Several safeguards are put in place to that effect (e.g. opt-out possibilities, preservation of licensing possibilities, participation in the negotiation forum on a voluntary basis). The proposal does not go further than what is necessary to achieve the intended aim while leaving sufficient room for Member States to make decisions as regards the specifics of these mechanisms and does not impose disproportionate costs.
From this, I cannot figure out what this law wants. The first sentence requires facilitating the rights of copyright holders. The second sentence allegedly aims to ensure wider access and dissemination of content, the diametrically opposite goal. The third sentence proposes safeguards "to that effect" - which effect? the first one or the second one? And so on contradiction upon contradiction. (Yes, I get it that the real aim is to enable copyright holders have their way and the rest is just waffle. All I am saying is that this waffle is highly distracting and I empathise with the poor members of parliament who cannot make head or tails of what they are voting for.)

Eventually, it will only matter what deeds and whose deeds will be punishable and who will be rewarded. This will depend on the effectiveness of the local police and courts.
Title: Re: What's Going on in Europe
Post by: krake on 2018-09-13, 11:09:59