The DnD Sanctuary

General => DnD Central => Topic started by: jax on 2014-03-06, 15:39:46

Title: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2014-03-06, 15:39:46
There are a number of threads from the Old World, any news from the New? Anything American goes.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-03-06, 15:59:18

Anything American goes.

Well, that includes Brazil where football is God!
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/mar/04/world-cup-2014-brazil-stadiums (http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/mar/04/world-cup-2014-brazil-stadiums)
Quote
In 100 days, Brazil will kick off the World Cup against Croatia in the gleaming new Arena de São Paulo. Assuming, that is, the stadium is finished in time.

Amid growing excitement at the World Cup returning to the home of La Joga Bonito, there is concern at the extent to which deadlines have been repeatedly missed before being torn up altogether. "I am not a World Cup specialist but I will say this has not been easy, for sure," said the Fifa secretary general, Jérôme Valcke, one man who you might hope would be exactly that, in Zurich this weekend.

"I think things will work well but it is also true that whenever you receive something late it becomes a challenge to make it ready in time."
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-03-06, 16:02:35
And then there's the US's stupid policy on Cuba the renegade state that threatens our security...that is, if the Soviet Union decides to land nuclear missiles. :yikes:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-03-06, 16:06:02
And don't get me started on Venezuela!
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/06/europe-left-condemn-human-rights-violations-venezuela-chavez-maduro]http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/06/europe-left-condemn-human-rights-violations-venezuela-chavez-maduro]http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/06/europe-left-condemn-human-rights-violations-venezuela-chavez-maduro (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/06/europe-left-condemn-human-rights-violations-venezuela-chavez-maduro)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Barulheira on 2014-03-06, 16:07:01
This thread is about what's going on...
Well, about the World Cup, that's old news. 6 years old at least. Anyone surprised?  :left:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-03-06, 16:20:30

This thread is about what's going on...
Well, about the World Cup, that's old news. 6 years old at least. Anyone surprised?  :left:
I am.
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/index.html (http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/index.html)
FIFA World Cup Brazil 2014 begins on
Thursday, June 12
and ends on
Sunday, July 13

Anyone surprised? Yes, Barulheira.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-03-06, 16:52:48
In Illinois, the primary elections are almost two weeks away. The gubernatorial candidates are jockeying for position, trying to convince us that the guy paying for the ad is our savior while his opponents will undoubtedly turn this state into an economic desert that would make Detroit look overpopulated and safe by comparison. I have a suspicion it doesn't matter which corrupt politician gets in, that the end result won't be much different.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-03-06, 17:47:37

In Illinois, the primary elections are almost two weeks away. The gubernatorial candidates are jockeying for position, trying to convince us that the guy paying for the ad is our savior while his opponents will undoubtedly turn this state into an economic desert that would make Detroit look overpopulated and safe by comparison. I have a suspicion it doesn't matter which corrupt politician gets in, that the end result won't be much different.
"will undoubtedly turn this state into an economic desert that would make Detroit look overpopulated and safe by comparison."
Impossible!
"I have a suspicion it doesn't matter which corrupt politician gets in, that the end result won't be much different."
Yes!  All politicians stinks, but some politicians stink more than other politicians.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Barulheira on 2014-03-06, 19:21:17

Anyone surprised? Yes, Barulheira.

I'm sorry. We rarely see anything being finished in time here.
Works aren't going on well here. As usually. :down:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-03-06, 19:50:01


Anyone surprised? Yes, Barulheira.

I'm sorry. We rarely see anything being finished in time here.
Works aren't going on well here. As usually. :down:
Not a problem. Recently I forgot when I was born. I did get the decade right, though. :lol:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2014-03-07, 02:45:06
And of course the law drama.

Rachel Canning: Judge rules parents don't have to pay university fees of daughter who tried to sue them (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/new-jersey-judge-rules-against-teenager-rachel-canning-suing-for-college-tuition-9170615.html)

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fd.ibtimes.co.uk%2Fen%2Ffull%2F1366712%2Frachel-canning.jpg%3Fw%3D660%26amp%3Bh%3D469%26amp%3Bl%3D50%26amp%3Bt%3D40&hash=7ebc0e1adcf2d6e1f518b4b79da4ccff" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/1366712/rachel-canning.jpg?w=660&h=469&l=50&t=40)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-03-07, 07:51:41
Quote
And of course the law drama.

Rachel Canning: Judge rules parents don't have to pay university fees of daughter who tried to sue them

Much more critical than what's going on in Ukraine!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-03-07, 22:35:00
Interesting vibe from that left wing newspaper The Guardian is the state of that Venezuela. We know that a goodly proportion of the poor are supposed to have been helped but in such a Socialist paradise why is there an inflation problem shortage ot items and crime is out of control. This is not new as it happened under the "Commandante.Is there anywhere worse in the Americas as Mexico? What a hellhole of murder and mayhem.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2014-03-08, 10:49:37
Federal Ruling In Ecuador: Pollution Case Violates First Amendment (http://thechevronpit.blogspot.de/2014/03/court-ruling-in-chevrons-rico-case.html)

Congrats Chevron,

5,000 square kilometers of contaminated rainforest, poisoned waters, more than 114 billion gallons of toxic waste and leaked crude oil.
In terms of volume 85 times as bad as the accident of British Petroleum in the Gulf of Mexico and 18 times as bad as the consequences of the wreck of the "Exxon Valdez" off the coast of Alaska.

Quote
What's worse, the dumping was done intentionally to cut corners and save an estimated $3 per barrel.
source (http://ran.org/chevrons-toxic-legacy-ecuador)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-03-08, 14:44:56
Disgusting. I don't use  :devil: Chevron :devil: and will avoid them on long trips.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-03-08, 15:00:10
Is there anywhere worse in the Americas as Mexico? What a hellhole of murder and mayhem.

Mexico is bad enough. The Mexicans are attempting to escape into Texas via tunnels! How's that for desperation?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2014-03-09, 22:12:56

Is there anywhere worse in the Americas as Mexico? What a hellhole of murder and mayhem.

Detroit, Michigan?   :left:  :right:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-03-10, 02:59:35
I kind of feel sorry for America being stuck with that failed place Mexico. It should be doing well but is a disaster. When I met a Detroit Orange Lodge over here for our parades they were obviously from a good part of Detroit (which narrows things down considerably). I a certain retired teacher stays on in Michigan he might pull that down being a Detroit escapist.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-03-10, 06:26:12
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSZCW3Tu3g6BLyDlYaueIMLkdklOELxf8SmemlJMwicpMSC9QsNqw)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-03-10, 09:28:43
Country and western music is going on here.

Top Ten New Country & Western Songs:

10.  I Hate Every Bone In Her Body But Mine.

9.    I Ain't Never Gone To Bed With an Ugly Woman But I Woke Up With a Few.

8.    If The Phone Don't Ring, You'll Know It's Me.

7.    I've Missed You, But My Aim's Improvin'.

6.   Wouldn't Take Her To A Dogfight 'Cause I'm Scared She'd Win.

5.   I'm So Miserable Without You It's Like You're Still Here.

4.   My Wife Ran Off With My Best Friend and I Miss Him.

3.   She Took My Ring and Gave Me the Finger.

2.   She's Lookin' Better with Every Beer.

And the Number One Country & Western song is:

1.  *It's Hard To Kiss The Lips At Night That Chewed My Ass All Day.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-03-10, 16:54:03
Quote
A study has discovered one in ten Americans think HTML - the name given to the code that makes up websites - is a sexually transmitted disease, while almost a third think a gigabyte is an insect.

But there's more...
Quote
Other terms that confused the participants included software, which was mistaken from comfortable clothing, and USB, which was mistaken from the acronym of a European country.

the rest (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2573666/One-ten-Americans-think-HTML-sexually-transmitted-disease-quarter-think-MP3-robot-Star-Wars.html).
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-03-10, 17:51:58
Quote
Quote
A study has discovered one in ten Americans think HTML - the name given to the code that makes up websites - is a sexually transmitted disease, while almost a third think a gigabyte is an insect.

But I know that it means Hot Tamale with Mayonnaise and Lettuce.

One in ten Portuguese think that Salazar lives. Olá!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2014-03-10, 18:00:08

Quote
A study has discovered one in ten Americans think HTML - the name given to the code that makes up websites - is a sexually transmitted disease, while almost a third think a gigabyte is an insect.


Well, to be honest as funny as the results of the 'study' seems to be it could came up with the same results anywhere in Europe too. It would depend on the region (rural area) and mostly the age of the people taking part on such a survey.

However the below quote is from a well known elder stateswoman:
Quote
All the Germans that were ... the ethnic Germans, the Germans by ancestry who were in places like Czechoslovakia and Romania and other places, Hitler kept saying they're not being treated right. I must go and protect my people and that's what's gotten everybody so nervous.

Hillary Clinton
source (http://www.presstelegram.com/general-news/20140304/hillary-clinton-compares-vladimir-putins-actions-in-ukraine-to-adolf-hitlers-in-nazi-germany)

Ignorance isn't a shame as long as you don't make public statements based on it.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-03-10, 18:04:30
I know what "Otter browser" (http://miochannopeeji.edublogs.org/2010/05/15/otter) is:sst:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-03-10, 19:23:03
it could came up with the same results anywhere in Europe too

Could it?... I doubt it very much (except if you ask people about historical facts and figures)

Course the "study" was an anecdote as such, what's funny is that a real study would have given even worst results.
That explains the entire American policy and politics, basically "what's going on" there.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: tt92 on 2014-03-10, 21:28:19

it could came up with the same results anywhere in Europe too

Could it?... I doubt it very much (except if you ask people about historical facts and figures)

Course the "study" was an anecdote as such, what's funny is that a real study would have given even worst results.
That explains the entire American policy and politics, basically "what's going on" there.

What explains the " entire American policy and politics"? A "real" study that wasn't actually made?
Are you rjh in disguise?

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-03-11, 19:22:54
What explains the " entire American policy and politics"? A "real" study that wasn't actually made?

How do I explain it for ex British inmates at a penal colony at the antipodes?...
Forget it.
Are you rjh in disguise?

Nope, slightly worst.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: tt92 on 2014-03-11, 21:11:25
Forget what?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-03-11, 21:17:25
Forget what?

That's better
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2014-04-11, 05:49:27
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn3.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-682432-galleryV9-sjkc.jpg&hash=e7e88f95d3d279665a0540d813d6b1d7" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn3.spiegel.de/images/image-682432-galleryV9-sjkc.jpg)
The above picture I came across today is funny and also an interesting one because it tells a lot about Mr Obama.

Anybody guessing what I'm referring to?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: tt92 on 2014-04-11, 05:57:17
No
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-04-11, 09:34:02
The telephone?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-11, 10:11:42
He likes his coffee in a cup, not a mug?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2014-04-11, 10:23:43
Does anybody of you have a writing desk at home? Did anybody of you work at a writing desk for a while?

Nope, the telephone on the left side is OK, so you can make notices (with your right hand) while phoning.
Nope, to enjoy your coffee in a coup is the courtly way to do it.

Hint: If you have a writing desk at home something might be placed differently as in the picture above.
Something dear and important to you ;)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-11, 10:27:03
Actually I have a bunch of pictures and cards behind me, not in front of me. But taking notes with your right hand? What an odd idea. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-04-11, 10:32:38
He's left handed, so the coffee cup....
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2014-04-11, 10:55:59

Actually I have a bunch of pictures and cards behind me, not in front of me.

Well, then you might have much in common with Obama. :devil:
Normally, people put the picture of someone dear on the desktop so he/she can sometimes look at it and not behind his/her ass on a radiator or whatever.
Only a showman will pile up such (and so many) pictures that way :)


He's left handed, so the coffee cup....

I thought he is right handed. I've checked now. Indeed he is left handed. So you have been right about the telephone even so it wasn't what I had in mind. I hope he won't strangle himself with the phone cable during work :D
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-11, 12:35:12
Nope, to enjoy your coffee in a coup is the courtly way to do it.
In a coup, they prefer water: (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thehindu.com%2Fmultimedia%2Fdynamic%2F00902%2F24_bangla_coup_902531g.jpg&hash=efa51f9d2a93282a2b453a205d523960" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00902/24_bangla_coup_902531g.jpg):)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-04-11, 13:16:52


Actually I have a bunch of pictures and cards behind me, not in front of me.

Well, then you might have much in common with Obama. :devil:
Normally, people put the picture of someone dear on the desktop so he/she can sometimes look at it and not behind his/her ass on a radiator or whatever.
Only a showman will pile up such (and so many) pictures that way :)


Now you know Obama's secret. He's a showman.

We seem to have a bad habit of electing showmen. Maybe it's a requirement of television, you have to put on a good show to even be considered. It's been suggested that some of our greatest presidents never could have been elected if they had to run in front of TV cameras like they do today.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-04-11, 13:19:57
What if to prohibit the picture for that purpose?:)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-11, 13:47:34
He's left handed

Awesome!

Indeed he is left handed. So you have been right about the telephone even so it wasn't what I had in mind. I hope he won't strangle himself with the phone cable during work

I had my phone on the left side of my desk when I still had one. :P
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-04-11, 20:05:33
Normally, people put the picture of someone dear on the desktop so he/she can sometimes look at it and not behind his/her ass on a radiator or whatever.
Only a showman will pile up such (and so many) pictures that way

What are you expecting from someone that is a Nobel prize just because he's black?
And what are you expecting from a society that gives him a Nobel prize because of such reason?

At least the other one had an assistant behind the desk... but since he was not black he didn't had a Nobel prize.
Poor Lewinsky, so much dedication for nothing...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-11, 20:08:02
What are you expecting from someone that is a Nobel prize just because he's black?

I thought it was just because he's not Bush.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-04-11, 20:09:49
I thought it was just because he's not Bush.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?action=reporttm;topic=230.43;msg=17066)

:lol:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-04-12, 22:52:04
Afraid i feel a need to state my deep disagreement with you jimbro. Salad Cream with my lettuce.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Macallan on 2014-04-12, 23:18:54

I thought it was just because he's not Bush.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?action=reporttm;topic=230.43;msg=17066)

:lol:

Seriously.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-04-13, 16:20:23

What are you expecting from someone that is a Nobel prize just because he's black.

Does anybody here have a list of Black people who haven't received a Nobel Prize?

I have two great-grandsons who are Black. Wonder what chance they have for a NP.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-04-15, 01:21:38
That is an interesting point actually even if they were not aware of your tree.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2014-04-15, 06:34:19
Jay Carney is Obama's spokesman and quite often he make remarks on Russian propaganda. So far so good.
The funny thing is that his kitchen (http://www.washingtonian.com/mom/features/balancing-act/) is decorated with Soviet propaganda of the 20ies and the 40ies.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonian.com%2Fmom%2Fimages%2Fshipman-lead-04102014.jpg&hash=aac3770feb896b15832afc742487190c" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.washingtonian.com/mom/images/shipman-lead-04102014.jpg)

How about old Soviet propaganda adapted to US needs?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlNe_37CUAA-zqQ.png)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-04-15, 07:16:56
I had my phone on the left side of my desk when I still had one. :P

First your innocence, then your honor, and now you have no phone? Sad. :'(
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-04-15, 07:27:24

Jay Carney is Obama's spokesman and quite often he make remarks on Russian propaganda. So far so good.
The funny thing is that his kitchen (http://www.washingtonian.com/mom/features/balancing-act/) is decorated with Soviet propaganda of the 20ies and the 40ies.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonian.com%2Fmom%2Fimages%2Fshipman-lead-04102014.jpg&hash=aac3770feb896b15832afc742487190c" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.washingtonian.com/mom/images/shipman-lead-04102014.jpg)

How about old Soviet propaganda adapted to US needs?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlNe_37CUAA-zqQ.png)

Two observations. That kitchen is absolute insanity. There's enough food laying around to feed a battalion of Russian troops in Crimea. The  magazine article is nauseating drivel.
Quote
Della is not easily swayed. She hates pink. Nor does she like to brush her hair. The daughter of Shipman and Jay Carney, President Obama's press secretary, isn't the kind of young girl interested in pleasing her Washington-power-couple parents, or any of the adults around her on the photo shoot for that matter. She is funny, sweet, and obviously smart, but she's not going to budge for braids and patterned shirts.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2014-04-25, 06:11:40
Birth defect again found at high rate in south-central Washington (http://www.yakimaherald.com/news/yhr/wednesday/2121234-8/birth-defect-again-found-at-high-rate-in)
Quote
The explanation might be a perfect storm of social, economic, genetic and environmental factors, said epidemiologist Mandy Stahre, who is assigned to Washington state by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

They're not focused near the Hanford site

Not focused near the Hanford site? Really?
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fnsnbc.me%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F04%2FHanford_USA_Yakima_Franklin_Benton.jpg&hash=e577a71ac58cd5df789ba32a91172166" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://nsnbc.me/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Hanford_USA_Yakima_Franklin_Benton.jpg)

Quote
"We're really concerned about the fact that the anencephaly rates are still so high," said Mandy Stahre, an Epidemic Intelligence Service officer with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention based in Washington state. "We were sort of hoping that this may have been a statistical anomaly or would go away."
source (http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/rare-birth-defects-still-spiking-washington-state-n86916)


Hanford Nuclear Reservation Tanks Leaking Radioactive Waste Underground, Governor Inslee Says (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/22/hanford-nuclear-reservation_n_2744974.html)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2014-04-25, 06:53:47
Doesn't particularly look that way, but it would take analysis to tell. Anencephaly  (those tube you really would want tied) rates vary, presumably for genetic reasons. They are particularly high in parts of England, as I remember.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-04-25, 06:58:32
Cliven Bundy is a hot ticket in the U.S. today. A classic racist, he wonders if the Negro wasn't better off under slavery than he is today living off the white man's government subsidy. This from wealthy cheat who hasn't paid for using public land to graze his cattle for twenty years. His political friends in the Republican Party are scrambling for cover...that is, the sane ones.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usnews.com%2Fdims4%2FUSNEWS%2F6ceedce%2F2147483647%2Fresize%2F534x%2Fformat%2Fpng%2Fquality%2F85%2F%3Furl%3D%252Fcmsmedia%252Fee%252Fc8%252Ff875dbba423eb21d52e580cd5bf4%252F20140424edhoc-a.tif%26amp%3Bint%3Dada609&hash=2c347e10357322a3d55b6fddf61258c4" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.usnews.com/dims4/USNEWS/6ceedce/2147483647/resize/534x/format/png/quality/85/?url=%2Fcmsmedia%2Fee%2Fc8%2Ff875dbba423eb21d52e580cd5bf4%2F20140424edhoc-a.tif&int=ada609)
http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/ucrk7y/apocalypse-cow---welfare-rancher (http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/ucrk7y/apocalypse-cow---welfare-rancher)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-04-25, 18:26:37
Now what a very appropriate thought on the consistency of the Republicans.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-04-26, 02:23:55
I seem to remember saying, in another thread, that Josh should step away from the vodka-- he'd obviously had too much, or words to that effect. I now have it on the very best authority that certain Americans would do well to step away from the Kentucky Bourbon, they've had too much as well.

As proof, I present to you exhibit A. Some genius has come up with the idea that America needs a new/old weapon, a weapon of extreme biological warfare. Of course, I refer to Godzilla.

The idea, as near as I could make out from the story, is to study Godzilla from the old Japanese horror-monster movies, create him, then unleash him on our enemies. He could march on the enemy encampment, spreading nuclear death-rays as he advances and causing the enemy to shout "Hey, Godzilla, Tokyo is that way." Then, they run in terror as the giant lizard vaporizes their tanks.

Problem: How to keep Godzilla from turning on his "masters" and tearing up an American outpost? The big lizard might not understand that we're his "friends" and that could make for a real battlefield problem. Oh well, back to the drawing board.

http://io9.com/u-s-military-expert-unveils-a-strategy-for-deploying-g-1567405876 (http://io9.com/u-s-military-expert-unveils-a-strategy-for-deploying-g-1567405876)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-04-26, 07:35:02
Godzilla Methodology? What's in a name...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-04-26, 11:54:42

I seem to remember saying, in another thread, that Josh should step away from the vodka-- he'd obviously had too much, or words to that effect.


He doesn't drink it, only using the bottles to make drinking glasses.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.pandawhale.com%2Fpost-18632-alcoholic-beverage-themed-drin-Hyoc.jpeg&hash=370fb2c458dfc9e7131da64f1a67a801" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://img.pandawhale.com/post-18632-alcoholic-beverage-themed-drin-Hyoc.jpeg)
http://imgur.com/gallery/d0CZzXG (http://imgur.com/gallery/d0CZzXG)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-04-27, 00:32:00
Well I never. The things you learn here.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2014-05-08, 12:54:32
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2F2031959e87853f3220491b33ea68444d%2Ftumblr_n17vxjoVE81s6c1p2o1_1280.jpg&hash=44ad63eca9be5f5a80242539d2fb8c62" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://24.media.tumblr.com/2031959e87853f3220491b33ea68444d/tumblr_n17vxjoVE81s6c1p2o1_1280.jpg) (http://p.im9.eu/mapporn-united-states-territorial-acquisitions-3192x2160.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-05-08, 21:16:27
A lot happens at South America, nothing happens at North America.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-05-11, 13:19:32
What's happening in South America?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Banned Member on 2014-05-11, 15:39:50
Autumn?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-05-11, 17:11:37
From Venezuelan hallucination to Brazil playing rich thanks to oil, the entire continent is on the move.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-05-20, 19:02:39
One thing that appears to have happened, at least according to a recent political ad, is that somebody finally recognized that Illinois has a one-party system. Problem: It was a Republican candidate challenging a Democrat candidate, and failing to recognize just how bad it really is here. We have a one-party system with two heads. One head is Democrat and the other is Republican, but for all practical purposes in Illinois it's the same corrupt party. Elect a new governor, and whether it's a Democrat or a Republican the first thing he'll want to do is raise taxes and engage in pay-to-play politics. We have former governors from "both" parties either presently serving time or have served time for corruption.

So--- in November, should I vote for the Democrook or the Republicrook? What a choice! :cry:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: tt92 on 2014-05-20, 23:30:14
My Father used to say "Don't vote. It only encourages the bastards".
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-05-21, 23:40:37
Unfortunately mjsmsprt40 you actually don't have much of a choice over there. The big two make dashed sure that no-one else will get into their way of working and in turn weakens democracy.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2014-07-01, 19:38:58
Independence Day for us, the US, is this friday.   :cheers:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-07-04, 22:09:11
And my Boyne annual commemoration on Saturday. Will be in my best atire of course along with 8,000 others parading. By all means enjoy your day and I forgive you for your mistake over 2 centuries ago and how you ended up.  :D
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2014-07-05, 02:03:32

And my Boyne annual commemoration on Saturday. Will be in my best atire of course along with 8,000 others parading. By all means enjoy your day and I forgive you for your mistake over 2 centuries ago and how you ended up.  :D

I understand your wanting to be an American and all, but this is "What's going on in the Americas?", which does not include the old imperial motherland, thankee kindly.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-07-07, 01:37:22
Dear oh dear American nationalist. Threads never stay always on the course as you well know.  By all means celebrate your mistake! As for my 5th July and the subsequent success of William 3rd, he introduced the Bill of Rights which was an influence on your initial leaders so fits in nicely with this thread actually. it is just a pity that the country your founders envisaged never came into fruition even after two plus centuries.

What you do need today however, is another revolution because the present system isn't working.It's a shame for the tens of millions of poor and those that have had their loyalty stolen by money creeps. Maybe they will put up a speed limit sign at Washington's grave, eh? 
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2014-07-24, 12:01:27
The Secret Government Rulebook For Labeling You a Terrorist (https://firstlook.org/theintercept/)
Quote
The Obama administration has quietly approved a substantial expansion of the terrorist watchlist system, authorizing a secret process that requires neither "concrete facts" nor "irrefutable evidence" to designate an American or foreigner as a terrorist

Take care  :devil:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-07-24, 18:54:55
Colonel, anyone wanting to be an American should book an interview with a head shrinker first. It is so nationalistic to the point of a groan. Independence - eh? The corporates stole your revolution.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-07-24, 19:54:00

The Secret Government Rulebook For Labeling You a Terrorist (https://firstlook.org/theintercept/)
Quote
The Obama administration has quietly approved a substantial expansion of the terrorist watchlist system, authorizing a secret process that requires neither "concrete facts" nor "irrefutable evidence" to designate an American or foreigner as a terrorist

Take care  :devil:


Witch hunts past and present. I wonder if or when we ever will learn from history, and shudder at the thought that it may never happen. In the 1600s, people were hanged and occasionally burned because they were declared-- on the flimsiest of "evidence"-- to be in cahoots with Satan. In 1950's America, the surest way to ruin was to be thought of as a "communist" even though there was no evidence whatsoever to back up the claim. Get suspected-- suspected, no worse-- and you could be blacklisted from being able to work and in certain cases could face prison time. Your friends, family and associates would all be watched too. Other witch hunts have come and gone too-- you can look it up, it comes with different names but it's the same old garbage in a different package.

Today, it seems "terrorist" is the witch of the hour. No proof of any kind needed-- just have somebody put your name on a list with no evidence to back up his claim, and the only way you'll fly is if you grow feathers. At the very least. You may lose your job, your freedom and your friends, family and associates could be watched.

I just saw a "Star Trek TNG" clip where they were having a witch-hunt trying to find suspected saboteurs on the Enterprise. Seems even in the far future, they still won't be able to learn from the past. I worry about us.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-07-25, 00:07:08
Yes, it is sad that the word terrorist is overused and sometimes without any serious thinking thus putting some in an ill-defined corner.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-07-25, 06:03:38
Yes, it is sad that the word terrorist is overused

Well, "sad" it's not the right characterization. It's inadmissible and proper of a regime of terror to persecute people by arbitrarily label them as terrorists.

I wonder for how long people will continue accepting everything. Probably indefinitely and then they will complain "ohhh how could this happen..."
Idiots. Being slaughtered will be the final act.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2014-08-03, 14:06:32
Newt Gingrich wants Moon to be 51st US state (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/01/27/gingrich_moon_base/)

Quote
Presidential hopeful Newt Gingrich is telling the people of Florida about his plans for a permanent base on the Moon, and suggesting it may be possible for the satellite to become the 51st US state.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-08-03, 15:12:47
What is this, the 1960 election campaign? :right:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2014-08-03, 16:37:25

What is this, the 1960 election campaign? :right:

Nope, the 2012 election campaign.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jseaton2311 on 2014-08-03, 17:01:19
I wonder for how long people will continue accepting everything. Probably indefinitely and then they will complain "ohhh how could this happen..."
Idiots. Being slaughtered will be the final act.


What a wonderfully rosy outlook--how does this world ever get along without you at the helm?   :knight:  :cheers:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2014-08-05, 21:52:19
(https://prod01-cdn00.cdn.firstlook.org/wp-uploads/sites/1/2014/08/watch_commander.jpg)

Nearly half of the 680,000 people caught up in the government's Terrorist Screening Database are not connected to any known terrorist group, according to classified government documents obtained by The Intercept.
Quote
If everything is terrorism, then nothing is terrorism," says David Gomez, a former senior FBI special agent.


source (https://firstlook.org/theintercept/article/2014/08/05/watch-commander/)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2014-08-06, 05:42:54
Though they were not first, Spy Agency Stole Scoop From Media Outlet And Handed It To The AP (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/05/terror-watch-list_n_5651757.html)

Quote from: AP
The Terrorist Identities Datamart Environment, or TIDE, is a huge, classified database of people known to be terrorists, those who are suspected of having ties to terrorism, and in some cases those who are related to or are associates of known or suspected terrorists. It feeds to smaller lists that restrict people's abilities to travel on commercial airlines to or within the U.S.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-08-06, 09:00:22
source (https://firstlook.org/theintercept/article/2014/08/05/watch-commander/)

Seems to me a very naive report. and probably made by demand with provided misinformation, those numbers are ridiculously low.

One million people registered, 680.000 at the watchlist? more than that had the Albanian political police at communist times with no computers, everything made by hand in triplicate.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2014-08-06, 10:34:51

Seems to me a very naive report. and probably made by demand with provided misinformation, those numbers are ridiculously low.

I'm afraid you didn't got it right.
Those 680.000 people are on the criminal watchlist. Monitoring takes place around the world, billions and billions of metadata.
Everybody is suspected for being a potential terrorist but those 680.000 are considered as such.
That list is growing very fast so I better should stop now.   :zip:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-08-06, 19:58:33
Everybody is suspected

And if you read that report with attention, that is never said anywhere. I'm not the one that didn't "got it right".

Your report is not a novelty for me, I know it as well as I know the news at the media about the possibility of a "second Snowden" leaking information.
I always suspect from such news, counter espionage 101... They're doing nothing but try to repair Snowden damages,,,

What was important in my post was to show to people that they don't have "security services", they have a political police, not different but for the worst relating communist countries, where different "agencies" are not anything but different departments of a political police proper of the dictatorship they live in.

If they were not so much brain washed maybe they would realize it by themselves... Some do, that's a good signal but not enough.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2014-08-15, 08:47:40
The picture below wasn't taken neither in Iraq nor in the Ukraine.
It's only the police patrolling in Missouri.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn1.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-736880-breitwandaufmacher-hkse.jpg&hash=7d806d82a177542cb9dfe7c13802868f" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn1.spiegel.de/images/image-736880-breitwandaufmacher-hkse.jpg)

BTW, nice police car.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-08-15, 09:51:53
The town of Ferguson, Missouri-- where that photo was taken-- is in riot right now. Not that different from a war zone, really.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-08-15, 11:53:19
For what it's worth: The Missouri State police took over security duties from the Ferguson police, and things seem to be settling down. The Ferguson police handled this all wrong and everything they did only made it worse. Bet the rent that there's some Constitutional issues before this is done.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/15/us/ferguson-missouri-police-shooting.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/15/us/ferguson-missouri-police-shooting.html?_r=0)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2014-08-19, 11:52:23
Let's hope things get settled down.
Meanwhile St. Louis Metropolitan Police officers arrest a 90-year-old Holocaust survivor for failure to disperse.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn2.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-738535-breitwandaufmacher-cpqa.jpg&hash=e704d98aab6e9c894b4ef99cbf1f68c5" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn2.spiegel.de/images/image-738535-breitwandaufmacher-cpqa.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-08-20, 02:19:35
Yes seen that arrest on the news. Dear, oh dear what a disgrace.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2014-08-26, 19:41:23
FT: Are 12 million Americans living on less than $2 a day? (http://blogs.ft.com/the-world/2014/08/are-12-million-americans-living-on-less-than-2-a-day/)

Quote
In a fascinating new paper, researchers at the Brookings Institution look at exactly that question and come up with some potentially shocking findings, albeit ones that come with plenty of caveats attached.

According to their calculations as many as 12 million Americans were living on $2 per day or less in 2012. That equates to one in four of the 46.5 million people in the US who were surviving below the official national poverty line of around $16 per day in 2012. It also amounts to 4 per cent of the population, a figure that the researchers point out is not flattering for the US when you compare it to Russia (with 0.1 per cent of the population living on $2/day or less according to the World Bank), the West Bank and Gaza (0.3 per cent), Jordan (1.6 per cent) or the urban populations in Argentina (1.9 per cent) and China (3.5 per cent).

The new study by Laurence Chandy, a Brookings fellow, and Cory Smith, a PhD candidate at MIT, is not the first to tackle the subject. It deliberately builds on another published last year which found that the US had seen a sharp increase in the ranks of its extreme poor since introducing welfare reforms in 1996. That study by Luke Shaefer of the University of Michigan and Kathryn Edin of Harvard found 1.65 million households with 3.55 million children in them - or 4.3 per cent of all American households with kids - were living on $2 per day per person or less in the US in 2011. [...]

Estimating the number of extreme poor in the US, it turns out, is just as complicated as it is in the rest of the world.

Once you account for tax credits and in-kind benefits like food stamps and housing subsidies Chandy and Smith found that the number of Americans living on $2 per day falls to 3 per cent of the population, although the vast bulk of those people still shockingly live on less than $1.25 per day, the World Bank's line for extreme poverty. [...]

In fact, when they applied the strictest potential criteria, which turn out to be those used by the World Bank in its assessment of developing countries, they found that there were arguably no Americans consuming $2 per day or less. "In other words," they write, "if we measured poverty in the US as if it was a developing country, we would conclude that no-one falls under the $2 threshold". [...]

The main reason for the divergence is simple: America's poor report earning significantly less than they report spending and that has a lot to do with the structure of the US welfare system, the researchers argue.

Since the 1990s the poor in the US have received far fewer cash payments and far more in-kind benefits like food stamps than they used to.

But that isn't necessarily positive, Chandy and Smith argue. Because of that structure in many cases America's extreme poor are excluded from its cash economy, they say. The consequence is that those who are most poor in the US are consigned to "a state of purgatory where relatively robust levels of consumption ensure many of their most basic material needs are met, but the absence of a reliable source of income ... makes it extremely difficult or impossible to cope with unexpected needs". [...]

By using tax records the French economist Thomas Piketty and others have started publishing forensic analyses of the incomes of the richest 1 per cent, he points out, and triggered a global debate on inequality.

Much less reliable data is available, however, on the poorest in America and other developed economies, who often don't file tax returns or pay taxes. And that, Chandy says, means that these days we know far less than we should about the lives of the bottom 15 per cent in America than we do about the top 1 percent.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2014-08-28, 05:46:58
There can't be too much religion in the US. This map claims to be a visualisation of Pew Religious Landscape Survey, with Catholics claiming the (arbitrary) mid-point. The Protestants and Evangelicals mainly differ in how much they think morality should be "protected", there is a cluster of nonbelievers and Jewish Buddhists, and a Black Hindu Muslim cluster.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F2tzms222h2ff3dfce824gngnno8.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com%2Ffiles%2F2014%2F08%2Fideologies.png&hash=90494b1f58190d90b89c7a48ac829ab9" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://2tzms222h2ff3dfce824gngnno8.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/files/2014/08/ideologies.png)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2014-09-05, 07:13:24
Well, since 2007 all you heard from the democrats was "It's all Bush's Fault".

I wonder if they are blaming Bush for ISIS too?

Watch & Learn:

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-09-05, 23:29:38
Now just imagine the global surprise if he was found not be responsible for something.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2014-09-18, 09:34:25
Minuteman Project to return to the Border (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3178751/posts)
Quote
The Minuteman Project's "Operation Normandy" has been launched as of 1200 hours today (Monday, July 7). This event will dwarf the original Minuteman Project of 2005. I expect at least 3,500 non-militia volunteers to participate, plus uncounted groups of militias from all over the country.

If you are familiar with the Normandy invasion of France in 1944, then you have an idea how large and logistically complicated this event will be. However, there is one difference. We are not going to the border to invade anyone. We are going there to stop an invasion.

[...I]t will cover the porous areas of the 2,000-mile border from San Diego, Ca. to Brownsville, Texas.

So:

- The name of the project is "Operation Normandy".
- If you are familiar with the Normandy invasion, then you know how logistically complicated it was.
- However, we are not going to invade anyone. We are going to play the Nazis who fought the invasion!

"Yep, we are mad as hell, but this is exactly how we like it!"
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-09-18, 19:07:20
Must say that Smiley does have a very good point in the usual patter dished out that everything is Bush's fault. When that is done at the same time they are ignoring what this mouthing pain in the neck Obam has done over the years. It simply cannot be the sole guilt of Bush at all.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2014-09-21, 04:22:11
Illinois judge rules police entitled to Swat raid over parody Twitter account

Quote from: The Guardian
Swat team burst into Peoria house looking for source of parody Twitter account that had upset town's mayor

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FGuardian%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2014%2F9%2F19%2F1411147339457%2F225a6496-1002-4a45-8def-5a616b74c8bc-460x276.jpeg&hash=931a939c62f17cda32645d478d8797a0" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/9/19/1411147339457/225a6496-1002-4a45-8def-5a616b74c8bc-460x276.jpeg)

The police hadn't even come for him. When four fully-armed officers of a Swat team burst into Jacob Elliott's house in Peoria, Illinois in April they were looking for the source of a parody Twitter feed that had upset the town's mayor by poking fun at him.

It transpired that one of Elliott's housemates, Jon Daniel, had created the fake Twitter account, @peoriamayor, and so incensed the real-life official, Jim Ardis, with his make-believe account of drug binges and sex orgies that the police were dispatched. Elliott was just a bystander in the affair, but that didn't stop the Swat team searching his bedroom, looking under his pillow and in a closet where they discovered a bag of marijuana and dope-smoking paraphernalia.

Elliott now faces charges of felony marijuana possession. He has also become the subject of one of the more paradoxical - if not parody - questions in American jurisprudence: can a citizen be prosecuted for dope possession when the police were raiding his home looking for a fake Twitter account?

A Peoria judge this week ruled that the police were entitled to raid the house on North University Street on 15 April under the town's "false personation" law which makes it illegal to pass yourself off as a public official. Judge Thomas Keith found that police had probable cause to believe they would find materials relevant to the Twitter feed such as computers or flash drives used to create it.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-09-21, 18:24:09
I understand that there have been repeated cases of the police raiding someone over the pond following accusations that seemingly tend to be deliberate  and just trying to cause bother for it
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-09-21, 23:12:27
Election day is coming! I can tell because my mailbox is loading up with campaign material. Illinois politicians.

The hottest race in my neighborhood appears to be for state representative. This is the person who will represent my district in Springfield. Two women are fighting for the seat, the Democrat is the incumbent. The challenger's literature actually seems halfway reasonable, the incumbent's literature tells me that if she loses, I can expect old people to be thrown into the street, women will lose--- oh, heck, maybe the right to vote-- will be beaten by their husbands, will lose equal pay for equal work and so on. We haven't yet gotten to the threats of the rivers turning to blood, plagues of locusts and the death of the first-born, but I expect those mailings to be coming. I think I'll vote for the challenger.

The governor's race--- oh, boy, can I just vote "No"? Seriously, an empty chair would have to be an improvement over either of the major candidates.

I don't think anybody can accuse the incumbent of being as dishonest as the fellows who went before him, but nobody is gonna say he's competent for the job either. The challenger inspires absolutely no confidence in my mind either. The only reason I can think of to vote for him is on the principle that we should change our politicians as frequently as we change a baby's diapers, and for the same reason.

November elections can't come soon enough.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: tt92 on 2014-09-22, 00:00:39
I have long contemplated forming the "None-Of-The-Above" party.
How could it fail?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-09-22, 06:27:53
Must say that Smiley does have a very good point in the usual patter dished out that everything is Bush's fault.

Except the patter is Republicans saying Democrats say everything is Bush's fault. That outnumbers Democrats blaming Bush for everything by at least four to one. But in the beginning it, in fact was Bush policies that trashed the economy, drove the deficit skyhigh. A month in the Obama administration, Republicans were blaming Obama for the near economic collapse that began with Bush and were screaming "Bush blame!" when someone pointed out the obvious. Now the economy improving (4.2 percent second quarter 2014) and deficit shrinking in no way can be blamed on Bush.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2014-09-22, 20:40:52
.......Now the economy improving (4.2 percent second quarter 2014) and deficit shrinking in no way can be blamed on Bush.


No, the only ones to blame for a rising economy are the American People.

We will spend ourselves out of grief, regardless all the roadblocks the HNIC * puts in our way.


(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FVbdSM2C.gif&hash=bb1bd39ebf3609dc802ce64832956ac0" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/VbdSM2C.gif)


*
Head Nitwit In Charge (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/chuckle002.gif)

JFYI........ That's old data, but can you actually guess (without peakin')
                       which ones have gotten better↑, gotten worse↓, or stayed about the same ↔?

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2014-09-22, 21:56:08
US Debt Clock (http://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html) -If you wanna peek. I killed almost 15mins watching this thing, lol.

Tennessee's (http://www.usdebtclock.org/state-debt-clocks/state-of-tennessee-debt-clock.html) actually wasn't as bad as I'd imagined.
& World Debt tab (http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html), for funsies.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-09-23, 06:31:00
Those figures are way

out of date.  The region with the worst unemployment rate is the west at 6.6%, so much for claiming the national unemployment rate is 9.1%, well below inauguration day.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fdata.bls.gov%2Fgenerated_files%2Fgraphics%2Flatest_numbers_LNS14000000_2004_2014_all_period_M08_data.gif&hash=98700aeb2f233ce31b6c37fcd154b1ad" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://data.bls.gov/generated_files/graphics/latest_numbers_LNS14000000_2004_2014_all_period_M08_data.gif)

The last Bush deficit was 1.413 trillion in fiscal year 2009 (still a Bush deficit because that was his budget) And he cooked the books by keep items off the deficit that was in fact deficit spending.  2015 was a bit over a third of that at 564 billion. 

The basic cause of the recession was in the banking sector. A major contributor was deregulation of the banks, legalizing financial instruments that were made illegal because they all but caused the crash of 1929. Funny and ironic about those that call themselves "conservative" that it's those folks that refuse to learn from history (economic and otherwise.) There's a correct amount of deregulation, removing unnecessary red tape for business, but not opening the door wide for practices that wreck havoc on the economy every time.  My frustration with modern Republicans is they've made themselves a parody of conservatism and have devolved into neo-cons but in any real way aren't conservative anymore. Don't like Obama? Blame the Republicans seemed to be trying to outdo each other with ass-clownery instead of producing a candidate that could beat him in 2008 and 2012. That's right, the GOP is just as responsible for the Obama presidency as the Democrats were.

Now in this election year, Republicans have everything going for them: Obama's unpopularity combined with mostly Republican states voting for Senators and Representatives. But a new patronizing GOP ad already compares voting for a Republican candidate with a lonely woman breaking up with her boyfriend (Obama.) You can watch the idiocy  here  (http://www.vox.com/xpress/2014/9/21/6757115/ad-women-voters-obama-breakup). Again, the GOP seems intent on snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Nate Silver predicated GOP victories this year, but it seems he didn't count on Republicans shooting themselves in the foot yet again.

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2014-09-23, 21:21:11
Those figures are way out of date........


As I openly stated in my prior post, & the figures for unemployment are getting better........due to the American People, & not by any activity --- on or off the golf course --- of the present failed presidency.

When will the democrats admit that their "experimental presidency" has failed miserably -- or is more smoke & mirrors the call?

(can't wait to hear the demonrat spin here, saying how wonderfully successful the Obama Experiment was -- saving America, along with the Western World, & Mom's Apple Pie)

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FrBO2dVN.gif&hash=4e0c994eab7168db17b5e3c7ef382145" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/rBO2dVN.gif)


Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2014-09-24, 05:39:51
Since SF and 'Cooney have brought up their political bits, I might as well too, and it is a gripe.

It is my sincere wish that the entire corrupt US healthcare system falls and burns. The Republicrats and Demoteas have failed.

Damned optometrists are the most corrupt of all, as "you have to have an eye exam before we can give you your contacts". WTAF is that shite? My damned prescription hasn't changed any, and just because I now don't have health insurance, that lot want's me to pony up $166.75 for just the stupid-arse "examination" (once again, my sight hasn't changed) and then an additional $66.58 per bloody box for both of my contacts?

Well, excuse by god me, but fawk you optometrists!!!  :bomb:  I mean Jeebus, I live in the most poor state in the union. I shudder to think what my other fellow Americans pay for contacts and that BS mandatory exam, especially those who share my plight of being uninsured.

I'll spare you all from my rant about the $28 other prescription I had to get for my health, when the generic $4 was sitting right beside it, but I couldn't get that "because Dr. Carter didn't mark the generic box and explicitly says to get this type". ---> To hell with the damn doctors and pharmacists too, they might just be as corrupt as the optometrists.   :furious:

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fniketalk.com%2Fcontent%2Ftype%2F61%2Fid%2F208116%2Fwidth%2F350%2Fheight%2F700%2Fflags%2FLL&hash=46b70f1846898b74fd2c0ed9a33a4215" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://niketalk.com/content/type/61/id/208116/width/350/height/700/flags/LL)


Apologies for the rant, but we don't seem to now have a "State of the Corrupt American Healthcare System" thread going, and if the previous two are going to opine about political stuff, count me in too!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-09-24, 11:58:38
Colonel, I just knew there was a reason I've been using cheap dime-store "cheater" glasses since 1995. I'll have to get a real eye exam and real glasses one day, but for now the 2.75 magnification cheaters I'm using are getting the job done.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Macallan on 2014-09-24, 13:36:24

It is my sincere wish that the entire corrupt US healthcare system falls and burns. The Republicrats and Demoteas have failed.

The latter for not even trying to go anywhere near far enough. Then again, the republicans are still busy freaking the fuck out over romneycare ( because fuck that black guy :rolleyes: )
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-09-24, 14:54:36
As I openly stated in my prior post, & the figures for unemployment are getting better........due to the American People, & not by any activity --- on or off the golf course --- of the present failed presidency.
But how so?  Investors and whatnot? The same "American People (tm) " that followed the Bush deregulation to the brink of economic collapse? What Republicans fail to understand is that Obama followed the same playbook all presidents do when faced with an economic crises 1) Lower the prime rate 2) Cut taxes and extend pre-existing tax cuts and offer tax incentives 3) Increase federal spending. If Bush could have had a third term, on dealing with recession I guarantee his actions would have been at least 75% the same (in fact, you'll be surprised much policy is carried over from one president to the next and crosses party lines. In fact, even the bailout of the auto industry was carried over from Bush. If McCain had won and fulfilled his promise of not bailing it out, the recession would have been far worst. Losing an entire industry to a recession is always great for the economy in both the short and long term....:p)  There was nothing experimental about it.

Now what is this silliness of Obama and golf? Apparently Boehner  plays more in one year  (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/post/why-president-obamas-golf-habit-doesnt-matter/2012/06/18/gJQAzPYZlV_blog.html) than Obama did his  entire presidency  (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/post/why-president-obamas-golf-habit-doesnt-matter/2012/06/18/gJQAzPYZlV_blog.html) in fact,  considerably better presidents than Obama played far more golf  (http://theweek.com/article/index/235844/deconstructing-the-5-most-ridiculous-myths-about-barack-obama). Is this golf thing yet another death rattle of a GOP intent on self-destruction?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-09-24, 14:58:11
Damned optometrists are the most corrupt of all, as "you have to have an eye exam before we can give you your contacts". WTAF is that shite? My damned prescription hasn't changed any, and just because I now don't have health insurance, that lot want's me to pony up $166.75 for just the stupid-arse "examination" (once again, my sight hasn't changed) and then an additional $66.58 per bloody box for both of my contacts?

Mine wasn't so bad. I paid 73 (including the 10 dollar co-pay for the exam. I probably could paid only the ten bucks if I didn't choose from the most expensive frames they had.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-09-24, 15:33:38
The latter for not even trying to go anywhere near far enough. Then again, the republicans are still busy freaking the fuck out over romneycare ( because fuck that black guy  :rolleyes:  )

If a Republican bucks the trend towards political suicide and becomes the next president, suddenly it will become a great idea with origins in the "great thinktank" Heritage Foundation again. The speed and ease in which the Republicans turned on their own idea was truly astounding. Of course, it /was/ thought of before the Obama administration and the do have difficulty remembering a damn thing before 2008. Perhaps this is linked the  low IQ of conservatives  (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/01/social-conservatives-have-a-lower-i-q-probably/#.VCLwLt_09Ec)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-09-24, 17:07:56
Damned optometrists are the most corrupt of all, as "you have to have an eye exam before we can give you your contacts". WTAF is that shite? My damned prescription hasn't changed any, and just because I now don't have health insurance, that lot want's me to pony up $166.75 for just the stupid-arse "examination" (once again, my sight hasn't changed) and then an additional $66.58 per bloody box for both of my contacts?

That shite it's called America.
Here, such an "examination" it's offered for free included in the price of your glasses or contact lenses regardless health-care system or insurances. Optometrists are mere shop attendants raised to the class of technicians by way of stupefying and stupefied societies that calls "cleaning technicians" to mere house cleaning women.

Around 60 or 70 dollars it will be the cost of contact lenses around here, I suppose. 160 dollars for "examination"?? less than that you'll pay for a private ophthalmologist, a true doctor, not a farce. One hundred euros is the average price for a specialist doctor consult outside any healthcare system.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-09-24, 17:25:56

This thread is about what's going on...
Well, about the World Cup, that's old news. 6 years old at least. Anyone surprised?  :left:

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/mar/04/world-cup-2014-brazil-stadiums

It is over, but it was in 2014. :devil:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2014-09-24, 23:09:59
.....My damned prescription hasn't changed any.......... (once again, my sight hasn't changed) ..............


Well, may I suggest, if you know your prescription, you click the pic & check out    (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FucqEHKA.gif&hash=b37c9850c577f4e290cb7e9e1d6bfabe" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/ucqEHKA.gif) (http://www.1800contacts.com/lenses)

There are many other online Contact Lens distributors (http://bit.ly/1v18lmI) too, & many offer free shipping like 1800Contacts do.....seek & ye shall find.

Not into online distributors?? Check out Walmart (https://www.walmartcontacts.com/) too. I think you can walk in, & hand them your hand written (in your handwriting) lens prescription, & then check-out.......simples, no?

(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/cheerskj4.gif)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-09-24, 23:44:19
Here, such an "examination" it's offered for free included in the price of your glasses or contact lenses regardless health-care system or insurances. Optometrists are mere shop attendants raised to the class of technicians by way of stupefying and stupefied societies that calls "cleaning technicians" to mere house cleaning women.

Around 60 or 70 dollars it will be the cost of contact lenses around here, I suppose. 160 dollars for "examination"?? less than that you'll pay for a private ophthalmologist, a true doctor, not a farce. One hundred euros is the average price for a specialist doctor consult outside any healthcare system.

By remarkable coincidence, he and I seemed to have the eye exams within a few days of each other. How it worked for me is that I had some sort of exam by one of those shop attendants, who asked me to push a button when I saw a dots of light of varying levels of clarity. Then a more through exam by an Optometrists, who also checked for other diseases to my eyes. I also had the option of going for contacts, but the price wouldn't have been anywhere near what he paid. But putting those in seemed akin to poking myself in the eyes every day :p
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2014-09-25, 19:42:38

.....My damned prescription hasn't changed any.......... (once again, my sight hasn't changed) ..............


Well, may I suggest, if you know your prescription, you click the pic & check out    (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FucqEHKA.gif&hash=b37c9850c577f4e290cb7e9e1d6bfabe" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/ucqEHKA.gif) (http://www.1800contacts.com/lenses)

There are many other online Contact Lens distributors (http://bit.ly/1v18lmI) too, & many offer free shipping like 1800Contacts do.....seek & ye shall find.

Not into online distributors?? Check out Walmart (https://www.walmartcontacts.com/) too. I think you can walk in, & hand them your hand written (in your handwriting) lens prescription, & then check-out.......simples, no?

(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/cheerskj4.gif)

1. Online distributors are fine. It's interesting that you post about the Evil Empire (tm) (Wal-Mart), as they are where I went immediately after I was told what my usual optometrist wanted. The Evil Empire required that my optometrist fax in my prescription to them. When I had that done, the Evil Empire refused to sell me my contacts because "your prescription is out of date". I explained to them my situation. They refused to budge. Apparently Bush the Lesser's Congress of 2004 had a law made that  you are required to get an eye exam and up-to-date-prescription before anyone can sell you contacts.  (Note that a Republican Congress passed this Nanny State shite)

2. Yes, but as mentioned, they too require an up-to-date prescription.

3. As mentioned in #'s 1&2, the prescription continues to dog me. From what I have seen in r/frugal of Reddit, the 1-800 ppl are particularly vociferous about having proper prescriptions.

ETA: From their website on commonly asked questions:

Do I need a prescription to place an order?

-  "Yes. We require a valid prescription for every order. If you don't have a copy of your prescription, you can still order contact lenses from us. You'll be able to select your eye doctor from our expansive database. All you will need is your eye doctor's name (or clinic name), city, and state. After you submit your order we will act on your behalf to quickly verify or obtain your prescription information. We are required by law to verify your prescription with your doctor. This helps to ensure that we provide you with the correct contact lenses in your order."

4. As I have tried to indicate, $166 just to have someone blow air into my eye from a machine, and tell me my eyes haven't changed in the past year simply isn't going to happen for two reasons; 1) That is not within my budget, and I remain unemployed at the moment (living off savings), although I am and have been on the search for a job. 2) While I could handle one or the other ( $166 for  the exam, or $66 per box (you have to have two boxes, as common sense indicates), I simply cannot handle both at the same time.




Meanwhile, we continue to give piles of cash to worthless welfare states such as Israel, Pakistan, Egypt, etc. That shite pisses me off so much. A citizen of this country can't afford his medical needs (I've had some medical changes that I haven't posted about, and that too is taking a hit on my wallet), but let's just blow piles upon piles of cash to these worthless degenerate states.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Macallan on 2014-09-25, 20:00:23

If a Republican bucks the trend towards political suicide and becomes the next president

I'm sure you remember what happened to the token sane candidate last time around :right:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Macallan on 2014-09-25, 20:07:30

By remarkable coincidence, he and I seemed to have the eye exams within a few days of each other.

I had to have an eye exam as one of the many hoops to jump through for my US visa ( why on earth do they insist on using the plural form for singular? :left: ) - cost me nothing.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2014-09-27, 05:08:48
Perhaps this is linked the  low IQ of conservatives (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/01/social-conservatives-have-a-lower-i-q-probably/#.VCLwLt_09Ec)

Perhaps, now since you can see reasonably well, you'll read the article you linked to...? :) (Nah! Some things never change.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-09-27, 10:33:26
Perhaps, now since you can see reasonably well, you'll read the article you linked to...?  :)  (Nah! Some things never change.)

Of course I did.That's why I know the article criticizes the studies' definition of conservative as being coarse and cites Paul Wolfowitz as an example. If I remember right, the studies do point that it applies to one type of conservationism and therefore that criticism isn't actually valid.  See, a problem with your reading is you pick up details great, but miss things such the author's "tone of voice." For instance, you didn't understand that my "tone of voice" wasn't entirely serious.
 
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-09-27, 17:14:29
The state representative race in my district is heating up.

The Democrat incumbent's campaign literature is getting increasingly strident, warning that if the Republican challenger wins her Tea Party cohorts will summarily throw old people out into the streets and see to it that wives are beaten by their husbands, children become homeless, plagues of locusts swarm up even in Winter-- which will be more harsh and brutal by the way-- and the Chicago Cubs won't win the pennant again this year. That last looks to actually happen by the way, seems the Cubs just can't catch a break.

The challenger's campaign literature promises that if she is elected-- even in spite of all that bad stuff she's supposedly going to do-- she will help get rid of cronyism and lifetime political service in Springfield... or something like that. They all promise stuff like that before the election, then once they're elected they always seem to be as adept at stuffing their pockets with taxpayer dollars as the person they replaced was. So--- we'll see.

I'm waiting for the mud-wrestling tournament. Pay-per-view as these two women square off against each other. Well, we can always dream, can't we?

The next election cycle for this office is in two years. Maybe I should run. Campaign on the usual platforms of dealing with corruption in Springfield, politicians that serve for life or until retirement whichever comes first, and the way tax dollars are just wasted in state government. I can run on demanding my fair share of the fraud and corruption.

I wonder if I'd get elected--- or arrested. Might be interesting to see, eh?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-09-27, 18:07:01
The next election cycle for this office is in two years. Maybe I should run.

Office of what? Doesn't matter, run anyway.
You'll be the only one that can say he has international support on all five continents. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: tt92 on 2014-09-27, 18:52:29
Run! There must be some way I could vote for you. I was in Chicago in 1949. Would that make me eligible?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-09-27, 19:31:40

The next election cycle for this office is in two years. Maybe I should run.

Office of what? Doesn't matter, run anyway.
You'll be the only one that can say he has international support on all five continents. :)


The office is state representative, from my district in Illinois.

The Illinois legislature is separated into two houses, just like the Federal legislature. The state representatives function much as the members of the House of Representatives do, just that state representatives never leave Illinois--- they do their dirty-work in Springfield rather than heading to Washington.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-09-27, 22:47:32
Real news story: Yesterday, there was a fire at the Chicago Air Traffic Control Center, located in Aurora, Illinois. It caused massive problems that still are being worked out as I write this.

The problem was caused by a disgruntled employee who set the fire and cut several cables, shutting down operations at the control center.

Would you like to know why he was disgruntled? Well, it seems he was being transferred. To Hawaii.

Wait, what? I thought Hawaii was practically a dream job, plenty to do, plenty to see, who wouldn't want to go live there? Well, I guess it takes all kinds.

http://wgntv.com/2014/09/26/breaking-faa-facility-employee-that-started-fire-was-upset-over-transfer-to-hawaii/ (http://wgntv.com/2014/09/26/breaking-faa-facility-employee-that-started-fire-was-upset-over-transfer-to-hawaii/)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2014-09-27, 23:54:51
See, a problem with your reading is you pick up details great, but miss things such the author's "tone of voice." For instance, you didn't understand that my "tone of voice" wasn't entirely serious.

As usual, your felicity to words (yours or others...) is tenuous at best.
Your tone of voice is usually second-hand snark (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=snarky&allowed_in_frame=0), and bungled, mangled and myopic -- even then...


Ask Macallan if he now accepts the validity of g, as promulgated by, e.g., Jensen... He'll of course say no! But he'll chortle -along with you- when "conservationists" are tagged as low IQ, and that's why they're not as "liberal as us." (But maybe he's finally done some homework! He might recant. IAPA!, and you know it.)

Be that as it may, I've been following GNXP almost since it started... Because I'm interested in population genetics, as a field of scientific enquiry. You're just "quote mining" there; and you got caught doing it -- for your usual reason!


Sorry to hear that you can't turn in your Obama-phone for some Obama-glasses... :) But when you vote for him again at least you'll have a (DA) excuse!


(Please feel free to report my use of "DA" as offensive or defamatory... I've given you two letters, one a consonant and the other a vowel: Surely, you can make something of that! :) )
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-09-28, 01:53:45
Your tone of voice is usually second-hand snark (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=snarky&allowed_in_frame=0), and bungled, mangled and myopic -- even then...

Project much?
Ask Macallan if he now accepts the validity of g, as promulgated by, e.g., Jensen... He'll of course say no! But he'll chortle -along with you- when "conservationists" are tagged as low IQ, and that's why they're not as "liberal as us." (But maybe he's finally done some homework! He might recant. IAPA!, and you know it.)

Why are you so offendable?  It's hilarious
You're just "quote mining" there; and you got caught doing it -- for your usual reason!

I didn't get caught at anything. First of all, I wasn't actually arguing conservatives are less intelligent. IQ doesn't necessarily indict a person's intelligence, and often shows little more than the test-takers ability to take the test. Now if you notice how conservative is described within the studies, the word bigot is probably a more appropriate term. Since you get confused and upset so easily, I'm not saying conservatives are bigots.Why would is be surprising that racists, etc might be less intelligent than the general population? Than there's the authoritarianism. I don't find it surprising that  person that feels one should blindly follow orders is less intelligent /and/ score lower on an IQ test than the general population.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2014-09-28, 05:11:07
First of all, I wasn't actually arguing conservatives are less intelligent.
So -- you're arguing that liberals/progressives are less intelligent than the average population? :) No: I think I was correct. You just did your usual thing, snark.
IQ doesn't necessarily indict a person's intelligence, and often shows little more than the test-takers ability to take the test.
But -when it's convenient to score partisan points- it will be used; and, of course, misused...
BTW: What evidence do you have, that IQ tests measure little more than the test-taker's ability to take the test? (You and I both know that there is no such evidence... :) There is only liberal orthodoxy, recapitulated. For you, that's science?) Next you'll tell me that HeadStart is a success, obviating the "race" gap in academic performance...
Now if you notice how conservative is described within the studies, the word bigot is probably a more appropriate term.
This, from a guy who countenanced "dog whistle" exegesis of "conservative" words? :) Have you taken the pledge: To speak truthfully? I'm doubtful. (But it's the ability I doubt; not the intention...)
Projection? Hm. I am not surprised you'd revert to Freudian psychology... Maybe you'd prefer the "modern" version, Scientology? :) You could pay to have your thoughts cleared!
But, yes, I've "projected" the past half-dozen years worth of your posts onto your most recent "efforts" -- few of which I comment upon. (That's projective, as in geometry...) Of course, only your posts here and at MyOpera's D&D. God knows, what you've said elsewhere...

Am I easily offended? No; I don't think so. But I am sufficiently irked by smarmy comments -so readily accepted by the PC crowd- sometimes to call out the perpetrator, when such occurs in fora I frequent.

But those "studies" you think are science -that maybe misuse the term "conservative" when all they really meant was bigot: Are they good science? I'm asking your opinion... (Feel free to check other sources; I know your level of expertise. But I'll hold you responsible for your opinion, regardless. That is, I'll expect you to argue for it.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2014-09-28, 05:54:35
Why would is be surprising that racists, etc might be less intelligent than the general population?

This requires a separate post, Sang.

What world have you been living in? Were Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot dunces? Bah! What you mean is nothing more than "people who don't agree with me" when you talk about intelligence or racism... Albeit, with a veneer of academic liberalism -- which now needs to be termed "progressivism," because liberals had out-worn the term. (And some still remembered its original meaning...and protested its usurpation.) Collectivism (tribalism), authoritarianism (as in opposition to free speech and free enterprise...not your usual canard: opposition to same-sex marriage and restrictions on controlled substances), and utopianism (the belief that experts can "solve" every problem) are the hallmarks of progressivism.
Conservatism does oppose these three presumptions, for good reason.

Your contention (repeated often enough...) that non-liberals are -what's Obama's term? Oh, yeah- "behind the times" is merely that: A contention. (Of course, I know Obama probably never said "behind the times"... He's got highly paid speechwriters to euphemise for him!) The meaning is amorphous enough to escape analysis, by the easily led...

Once upon a time in America some of our smartest progressive leaders called for racial segregation and eugenics programs... Now, of course, Justice Ginsberg guards the political bailiwick with all her might!
Some things never change.

But what never fails to amaze me is the propensity of certain "types" to call those who disagree with them on substantive (and procedural...!) matters "stupid" -- or (and it amounts to the same thing) "anti-modern".
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-09-28, 12:02:16
One thing is going on in the Americas for sure. Oakdale and Sanguinemoon are squaring off against each other on a forum yipping "You're wrong!" at each other.

They may be right.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-09-28, 12:16:05
(Of course, I know Obama probably never said "behind the times"... He's got highly paid speechwriters to euphemise for him!)

I hope next time Mr Obama hires Oakdale for writing his speeches (and pays him even better). It would let the rest of the world speechless... :)

As for the rest, I agree very specially with a point, that no one pays attention in Europe, the believe that "experts" can solve all possible problems.
However, it's neither "utopianism" nor a characteristic exclusive of the Left, it affects an entire civilization. Half believes in "experts" the other half believe "Market" can do it.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-09-28, 14:33:39
Oakdale, why is that you try to reduce everything I said to "you disagree with me, therefore you're stupid." In fact, all I noted was a correlation between low IQ and prejudice (and noted it might have been unfair for the studies to call it conservatism. )   A correlation, meaning there's tendency for this to be the case but not all the time. It's a study of averages within large groups. Therefore you can have a non-prejudiced dolt and a genius level racist, but those are outliers. This seems like common sense. Low brain power more or less equals less ability to see and appreciate the humanity in someone different from yourself.

Incidentally, and this is sure to tie your shorts in a twist, low levels of cognitive ability correlate with low levels of moral development in Kohlberg's stages of moral development. So how will you twist my words this time? That people that make a different moral choice than me are less intelligent? In fact was determines the morality of the choice isn't necessarily the decision itself, but the reasoning behind it. So, racist people tend to be not only less intelligent than average, but are at a lower stage of moral development as well. Want evidence? The Aryan Brotherhood prison gang: racist, and made poor moral choices that landed them in prison. What about the IQ part? Well, there's a correlation between low intelligence and criminality (again, this an average, not all the time since that confuses you :p ) So they're in prison in part because of low cognitive ability, which also manifests itself in a low level of moral development and racism.

Now it would certainly take a low level of cognitive ability to interpret that to mean that I consider those that disagree with me to be unintelligent, amoral/immoral criminals and racists, wouldn't it?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: tt92 on 2014-09-28, 18:41:36

One thing is going on in the Americas for sure. Oakdale and Sanguinemoon are squaring off against each other on a forum yipping "You're wrong!" at each other.

They may be right.

:lol:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-09-28, 19:51:15
I wonder if you should tell the fiendish criminal mastermind in the James Bond movies that he has a low IQ. Hmmmm.... that might not be one of your best moves, especially when he's arming the unnecessarily slow and extremely complicated killing machine he's strapped you to.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-09-29, 08:10:42
There are very serious matters going on in America, particularly Obama's latte salute.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fnewsbusters7.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fstyles%2Fblog_body-50%2Fs3%2Fimages%2F2014-09-24-NBC-TDAY-ObamaSalute.JPG&hash=4dc2b73d829f902d1ddbbd522f34c0fe" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://newsbusters7.s3.amazonaws.com/styles/blog_body-50/s3/images/2014-09-24-NBC-TDAY-ObamaSalute.JPG)
Republicans are all over the Prez for disrespecting the troops. What they've forgotten is this one!
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.images.itv.com%2Fimage%2Ffile%2F479833%2Fstream_img.jpg&hash=09388f4742ac577510079840fd3a4194" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://news.images.itv.com/image/file/479833/stream_img.jpg)
Yes, the media here are daft.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-09-29, 08:45:25
Also in a Fox News shows that complained that saluting like that was disrespectful to the troops, they talked about a female jet pilot as "boobs on the ground."  But first image Jaybrah showed was NBC, which shows that Republican complaints about media supposedly giving the president a free pass on everything are utter bullshit. They go along with the invented scandal while forgetting that the president doesn't actually have to salute at all (and that no president did until the time of Reagan.  One thing that seems to be missing in this "scandal" is how to the Marines in question feel? Are they actually insulted?

A slight correction: Eisenhower did occasionally return military personal's salutes on special occasions such as dedicating the Marine Corps War Memorial or when giving high medals.

John Stewart said it best about the Republicans and this "scandal." He said, "Fuck you and your false patriotism." I do have disagree with him a little, though. Intercourse with a Republican runs the risk of contracting whatever disease seems to be eating the GOP's collective brain.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: tt92 on 2014-09-29, 19:12:20


. Intercourse with a Republican runs the risk of contracting whatever disease seems to be eating the GOP's collective brain.

So THAT'S where their brains are.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-09-30, 05:56:45
So THAT'S where their brains are.

Yes. It stands to reason that if their heads are up their ass, their brains would be located in a similar position.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2014-10-01, 23:05:34
Obama's latte salute...Respect one, or the other..............
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FJiSkkuv.jpg&hash=11876771a89479c3778881e33d9ee8aa" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://imgur.com/JiSkkuv.jpg) :monkey: :banana:(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FrVlwspp.jpg&hash=338b0a778b20fc5e976030ef2a04793c" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://imgur.com/rVlwspp.jpg) :monkey: :banana:

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-10-03, 01:46:08
Saluting with a dog in your arms? tut, tut.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-10-07, 07:45:31
The end of the equal marriage fight is all but completed. The  Supreme Court  (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/06/us-usa-court-gaymarriage-idUSKCN0HV19020141006) declined to hear the appeals from the states still arguing against equal marriage. This is because there is no constitutional case against equal marriage. The traditional arguments are 1) Think of the children 2) Religion 3)and gibberish about saying society will break down if loving same-sex couples can marry 4) and the utter idiocy about about marrying dogs and toasters. All sides expected the SCOTUS to rule on equal marriage, but frankly non of the arguments against it hold constitutional water. Legal experts do wish for more comment from the Justices. The justices note lack of dissent from the Appeals court in this matter.

What this means is that within a few years equal marriage will be the law in all 50 states, plus other US territories. States that didn't already appeal equal marriage might not, knowing what the ruling will be but they're bound to face lawsuits and the ruling will be against them. This sets a huge, if unofficial, precedent. It's over. The anti-equal marriage forces have lost. They brought this on themselves. Same-sex marriage was illegal all 50 states, but they had to push the issue and pass constitutional amendments. Now it's time for them to taste their bitter medicine.

I wonder what this does to the political landscape, though. Most LGBT people found themselves in a position of having to vote Democratic because of this issue. This might change that situation with the caveat that if a GOP candidate impotently raises the issue to "energize the base" , he'll still lose that voting bloc. There's a slightly interesting development. I wanted to offer a link to GOPProud (a group of LGBT conservatives) because I remember them saying something about how many LGBT folks would benefit from lower taxes having above national average incomes, but the domain appears to be for sale.  Here  (http://www.goproud.org/?ItemID=53) it is anyway. Okay, according to  Wikipedia  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GOProud) they dissolved on June 2 [/url]/ Oh the irony, right when thinking LGBT voters might consider giving them another look. Oh well. The Wikipedia articles notes the founders left the GOP due to the bigotry within the party. The  Log Cabin Republicans  (http://www.logcabin.org/) seem to be alive, though and claiming "Spirit of Lincoln 2014."

What will this do to the GOP itself, though? With this issue dead, maybe their better candidates can focus on issues more people care about:taxes, the deficit, etc.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2014-10-08, 23:53:01
With this issue dead, maybe their better candidates can focus on issues more people care about:taxes, the deficit, etc.

The issue isn't dead. But common sense may be...
I can't wait to hear your "reform-Progressive" platform, regarding "taxes, the deficit, etc."... :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-10-10, 16:20:10
The politicians are quite content to be sidetracked by the queer marriage issue. And anyway just putting the light on your Republicans you can ask the same thing about the bleeding Democrats as they are overseeing the same damn issues as them.

There seems to be an inbuilt arrogance often on these forums. Yanks just come on and talk straight away about their own internal issues as if this is an American forum. Others tend to lean on the attitude of "what my country is doing" instead. I  find the same attitude on my hobby, train simulation when the ex-colonists act the same way.

Anyway, poofs exists just like Communists or anything else but I won't be brained into thinking such is wonderful. I don;t want to harm shirt lifters any more than I would harm a Red instead I body-swerve.  8)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-10-11, 16:17:13
Yanks just come on and talk straight away about their own internal issues as if this is an American forum.

So quit crying and start a thread disguissing what you want to talk about :p
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jochie on 2014-10-11, 17:40:45
This churlishness over salutes highlights the degeneration of American society.

No president before Reagan saluted. That includes real patriots and presidents who were in the military like T Roosevelt, Eisenhower and Kennedy.

Now we have this faux patriotism and love of country which has to be shown by salutes and politicians standing before phalanxes of the American flag. Also, make sure an American flag lapel is worn.

Politicians don't have the balls to stop this bs. They're so very scared of being labeled un-american or unpatriotic.

Who would have thought that the necessary political test for patriotism and love of country is the wearing of a flag lapel, of giving the correct salute and of having a phalanx of flags behind you when giving a speech.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-10-11, 20:03:40
RJH, did you happen to notice the title of this thread? OK, if we talk about what's going on in America in a thread titled "What's going on in the Americas?" why would you have a problem with that?

So, how about starting a thread about what's happening in Scotland? We have at least two people here--- you, RJ, and Luxor-- who should be experts at anything and everything that happens North of Hadrian's Wall. I fancy you could fill a thread with something, and since the thread would be about Scotland you could tell us Yanks to take our "America is great!" stuff and keep it out of your Scotland thread. Some of us might still ignore that, but-- the thread would be about Scotland, so you would have grounds to keep it about Scotland.

OK, just a thought.......
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-10-12, 00:35:37
Thoughts are fine but on a more general slant on this Forum (and it was the same on the previous Opera) your fellow countrymen come on here and act as if this was purely an American forum. Even on hobby forums the same thing occurs. And as i pointed out others being more sensible will say "here such and such happens" or whatever but your comrades do I am afraid act with a wee does of arrogance and superior style. I know you normally don't as you have enough to contend with driving that lorry, trying to keep the lid on the Windy City......  :D
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-10-12, 00:37:18
Oh, as a postcript have you taken a look at the same thread title? It doesn't say America fulls top but the Americas. Tut, tut boy you slipped.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2014-10-12, 01:31:44
your fellow countrymen come on here and act as if this was purely an American forum
No. It's just that you and some few others won't or can't read; your hobby isn't toy trains, it's America bashing -- and you do that, I guess, because your own lot are such rotters that you can't bear to talk about them.
As mjm said, talk about those things that interest you! (If you would, note the level of response...) Everyone has opinions on matters American. Hardly anyone cares about Scotland, Holland, France; or even Russia...
The Old World is getting really old, man! The so-called Emerging World (south-east Asia) is cocooning itself; and the Cradle of Civilization has -with one prominent exception- yet to produce an enduring civilization, in modern times...
The United Kingdom recently almost dissolved; and more devolution is coming. Who cares? :)

There are quite a few smart, cosmopolitan posters here. (You're not one of them.) Have you noticed, how few people -since Plato- seriously mention Atlantis as either a model or cautionary example?
There's a reason for that.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: tt92 on 2014-10-12, 04:26:22

Thoughts are fine

how do you know?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-10-12, 09:11:49

Oh, as a postcript have you taken a look at the same thread title? It doesn't say America fulls top but the Americas. Tut, tut boy you slipped.


So-- if our Brazilian guy wants to post something about what's happening in Brazil, nothing's stopping him--- since, last time I looked, Brazil is part of the South American continent. We had a fellow-- don't know if he's still around, haven't seen him for awhile-- who coulda told you all you ever want to know about Mexico. I seem to recall that you and that guy didn't get along well though, and if anything you had even nastier things to say about Mexico than you do about the States. Now, I'll admit that my own knowledge about Mexico is somewhat weak. I know there are some "party places" that the well-to-do from up here like to visit, and a whole lot of poverty, and a whole lot of them trying to get here because of the whole lot of poverty there--- but beyond that, what I know could be put in a gnat's eye and still leave room for my van to park in the gnat's eye. Sooooo-- if he wants to tell us what's really going on there,-- Mexico is part of America, it belongs in this thread.

Happy now? OK, that was a stupid question, I should know nothing on this side of the Atlantic makes you happy, RJ.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-10-12, 17:54:39
Must say that bothering with Mexico is pointless as it is a hell hole of magnifying proportions. Talk about losers there? Wouldn't live in the place for million pounds.

Well I don't get too fazed on the matter of nothing to keep me happy re over the pond mjsmsprt40! However, I am by nature, optimistic. When the place deals with what goes on inside and stops creating wears and bother outside I will be more than happy to praise your lot!  :lol:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2014-10-12, 20:00:41


Oh, as a postcript have you taken a look at the same thread title? It doesn't say America fulls top but the Americas. Tut, tut boy you slipped.


So-- if our Brazilian guy wants to post something about what's happening in Brazil, nothing's stopping him--- since, last time I looked, Brazil is part of the South American continent. We had a fellow-- don't know if he's still around, haven't seen him for awhile-- who coulda told you all you ever want to know about Mexico. I seem to recall that you and that guy didn't get along well though, and if anything you had even nastier things to say about Mexico than you do about the States. Now, I'll admit that my own knowledge about Mexico is somewhat weak. I know there are some "party places" that the well-to-do from up here like to visit, and a whole lot of poverty, and a whole lot of them trying to get here because of the whole lot of poverty there--- but beyond that, what I know could be put in a gnat's eye and still leave room for my van to park in the gnat's eye. Sooooo-- if he wants to tell us what's really going on there,-- Mexico is part of America, it belongs in this thread.

Happy now? OK, that was a stupid question, I should know nothing on this side of the Atlantic makes you happy, RJ.


Good points there MJM......The OP & TITLE does specifically note the AMERICAS, so unless this thread, & all it's contents, are totally deleted from DND, it should encompass ALL the countries in "THE AMERICAS" --  both N. America & S. America   -- like it or not.

The United States is but one country in all of the Americas. (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/cheerskj4.gif)

I know alot of people call the United States   'America',   but to be perfectly direct & precise,
we are known as the United States of America, or United States,   or U.S. for short.

Now, we all know that RJ's sphere of wisdom really doesn't exist outside of his little room, & in his mad dash to share his obsessive hatred of anything American, when he made this thread he really only wanted the Americas to mean the United States, but we all know he religiously screws the pooch,  (https://www.google.com/search?output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=screws+the+pooch)& so that said he ignorantly named it the way he did. (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/chuckle002.gif) (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/taunt.gif)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-10-12, 20:19:29
So-- if our Brazilian guy wants to post something about what's happening in Brazil

Do you mean a brasileiro referring to Brasil?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-10-12, 20:45:09
RJ, why don't you like our wears? Got a thing against what's left of our textile industry?

We used to be one of the leading producers of wears, but these days most wears are made in Asia. Just look at the labels. :lol:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2014-10-12, 21:55:18
We used to be one of the leading producers of wears

Imagine how this Massachusetts transplant feels, mjm!

Past glory frays and fades. Threads unravel...
The cloths that clothe and keep us warm may not
survive a cleansing -- water, soap, what's wrought
by agitation -- aren't meant to travel

long, on the roads we take or in the climes
we frequent. (We used to don the furs of
animals better suited than us...) Glove
the hand that reaches out to the Sublime,

and it will never touch it! 'Though frost-bit
fingers hardly care and scorch-abraded
extremes of interest become jaded...
The taste for ash and sulphur doesn't fit

the old-fashioned way of making sense. But
modern sense is cruel. And there is a glut...



(Yes, I know this is really bad... :) )
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-10-12, 22:10:10
We used to be one of the leading producers of wears, but these days most wears are made in Asia. Just look at the labels.  :lol:

Yes, but I think he's mad because so many brands still have headquarters in the USA. American Apparel, for example must really get his haggis.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2014-10-13, 01:23:21
So, how about starting a thread about what's happening in Scotland?


There are at least five to pick from already:

Scotland as a West Baltic state: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland? (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=481.0)
Scotland as a part of Europe and Africa: What's Going on in Eurafrica? (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=311.0)
... sans Africa: What's Going on in Europe (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=163.0)
... the whole continent, including the part east of the imaginary dividing line: What's Going on in Eurasia? (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=312.0)
Scotland is still barely in the U.K.: What's going on in the UK and Crown Dependencies (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=157.0)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2014-10-13, 01:46:29

We used to be one of the leading producers of wears, but these days most wears are made in Asia. Just look at the labels.  :lol:

Yes, but I think he's mad because so many brands still have headquarters in the USA. American Apparel, for example must really get his haggis.

The manufacture of fabrics is practically purely Asian, but that's not where the money is. The money is in the marketing of fabrics.

This industry as it happens is dominated by Europe (the European part of Eurasia and Eurafrica). The biggest clothing retailer in the world is Spanish Zara, followed by Swedish H&M. Zara as it happens is largely producing the clothes in Europe, because the secret of Zara is speed, and Zara's customers have been largely European, unlike H&M, which is more global, competes on price, and largely produce their apparels in Bangladesh.

This is how the world is changing. Production is getting so automated that the cost of labour is so low that the factories could be anywhere (though Zara produces in low-cost areas of Spain), while logistics is getting crucial.

The flip side is that the factories provide much less employment than they used to do.

Maybe we should have a thread on this, the awsomesauce of/what is going on in the fashion industry?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Barulheira on 2014-10-13, 11:02:48
I happen to be the only American regular poster outside the United States. Noteworthy, this thread is mainly about issues in the United States. Not a surprise.
We are in the polls right now here.
Never mind. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-10-13, 12:57:14
I'm voting for Rousseff because I favor female candidates.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fa4.files.biography.com%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fc_fill%2Cdpr_1.0%2Cg_face%2Ch_300%2Cq_80%2Cw_300%2FMTE4MDAzNDEwMDU4NTc3NDIy.jpg&hash=0a7da92e2a21d8368a2799ec2b5c8680" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://a4.files.biography.com/image/upload/c_fill,dpr_1.0,g_face,h_300,q_80,w_300/MTE4MDAzNDEwMDU4NTc3NDIy.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-10-13, 22:49:23
Jax why mjsmsprt40 got a thing about overlooking those Scots links is that the blinkers were still on when he hurried.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-10-13, 22:51:31
Must say jimbro that the poor choice doesn't help much. After all, I recall when she flew to the former Yugoslavia shooting match she lied about her plane being near flak when it turned out it wasn't. Mind you lying is a political requirement so fair enough.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-10-14, 07:10:28
I'm voting for Rousseff because I favor female candidates.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fa4.files.biography.com%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fc_fill%2Cdpr_1.0%2Cg_face%2Ch_300%2Cq_80%2Cw_300%2FMTE4MDAzNDEwMDU4NTc3NDIy.jpg&hash=0a7da92e2a21d8368a2799ec2b5c8680" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://a4.files.biography.com/image/upload/c_fill,dpr_1.0,g_face,h_300,q_80,w_300/MTE4MDAzNDEwMDU4NTc3NDIy.jpg)

And she is 20 percent butcher than the male candidates.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2014-10-14, 18:11:00

I'm voting for Rousseff because I favor female candidates.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fa4.files.biography.com%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fc_fill%2Cdpr_1.0%2Cg_face%2Ch_300%2Cq_80%2Cw_300%2FMTE4MDAzNDEwMDU4NTc3NDIy.jpg&hash=0a7da92e2a21d8368a2799ec2b5c8680" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://a4.files.biography.com/image/upload/c_fill,dpr_1.0,g_face,h_300,q_80,w_300/MTE4MDAzNDEwMDU4NTc3NDIy.jpg)

And she is 20 percent butcher than the male candidates.


What Difference Will She Make?
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FZcNjjb2.gif&hash=b0199953782c655147422784e11b1054" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/ZcNjjb2.gif)
A Big   'BLOODY'   Difference!!!


Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2014-10-15, 03:10:51

Maybe we should have a thread on this, the awsomesauce of/what is going on in the fashion industry?


That thread is in just now: The Awesomesauce with the Fashion Industry (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=519.0)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Macallan on 2014-10-17, 12:21:01

I'm voting for Rousseff because I favor female candidates.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fa4.files.biography.com%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fc_fill%2Cdpr_1.0%2Cg_face%2Ch_300%2Cq_80%2Cw_300%2FMTE4MDAzNDEwMDU4NTc3NDIy.jpg&hash=0a7da92e2a21d8368a2799ec2b5c8680" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://a4.files.biography.com/image/upload/c_fill,dpr_1.0,g_face,h_300,q_80,w_300/MTE4MDAzNDEwMDU4NTc3NDIy.jpg)

And she is 20 percent butcher than the male candidates.

Which makes her an order of magnitude more manly than the manliest glaswegian :right:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-10-19, 04:18:57
Doesn't matter who is elected you will still have tens of millions of poor, homeless, strain to maintain a massive army and military expenditure not needed. Kind of sad in a way.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2014-10-19, 21:08:13

Doesn't matter who is elected you will still have tens of millions of poor, homeless.....


As long as it ain't me ..... Cest la vie  (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/thumbs/grin.gif)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-10-19, 21:29:34

Doesn't matter who is elected you will still have tens of millions of poor, homeless, strain to maintain a massive army and military expenditure not needed. Kind of sad in a way.


The only reason Scotland doesn't have the above is because Scotland doesn't have "tens of millions" of much of anything. If it weren't for the rest of the UK, you couldn't field much of a military if you tried. Now, I will say that one reason the UK could put together a credible navy is because Scots ship-building was second to none for the longest time. Much of the Royal Navy was built on the Clyde, so you do have that. But, I understand those days are a memory now with the UK having mothballed much of the fleet and new ship-building not being what it once was.

Maybe try to build another British Empire? Just a thought, then you could complain about the size of your military while tens of thousands go hungry at home.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: tt92 on 2014-10-19, 22:33:11

I'm voting for Rousseff because I favor female candidates.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fa4.files.biography.com%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fc_fill%2Cdpr_1.0%2Cg_face%2Ch_300%2Cq_80%2Cw_300%2FMTE4MDAzNDEwMDU4NTc3NDIy.jpg&hash=0a7da92e2a21d8368a2799ec2b5c8680" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://a4.files.biography.com/image/upload/c_fill,dpr_1.0,g_face,h_300,q_80,w_300/MTE4MDAzNDEwMDU4NTc3NDIy.jpg)

And she is 20 percent butcher than the male candidates.

30% baker and 50% candle-stick maker.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2014-10-19, 22:51:51


I'm voting for Rousseff because I favor female candidates.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FO0vBEYJ.jpg&hash=dfcd9768b70f00bf416a8952a4c7a6b7" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://imgur.com/O0vBEYJ.jpg)

And she is 20 percent butcher than the male candidates.

30% baker and 50% candle-stick maker.


65% Lying Sack of Shit, 15% Ego & Testosterone Driven Shemale, & 20% Murderous Bitch
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2014-10-19, 23:12:36
30% baker and 50% candle-stick maker.

Now I'm curious what kinda closet activities she'd partake in. Just got my vote.


65% Lying Sack of Shit, 15% Ego & Testosterone Driven Shemale, & 20% Murderous Bitch

Seems qualified enough for the job.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: tt92 on 2014-10-20, 03:08:29



I'm voting for Rousseff because I favor female candidates.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FO0vBEYJ.jpg&hash=dfcd9768b70f00bf416a8952a4c7a6b7" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://imgur.com/O0vBEYJ.jpg)

And she is 20 percent butcher than the male candidates.

30% baker and 50% candle-stick maker.


65% Lying Sack of Shit, 15% Ego & Testosterone Driven Shemale, & 20% Murderous Bitch

Don't hold back. Tell us what you REALLY think.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-10-20, 05:48:54
Now I'm curious what kinda closet activities she'd partake in. Just got my vote.

I agree. At least she's honest about being a vampire, unlike the rest of those leeches in DC.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2014-10-20, 06:59:13

Now I'm curious what kinda closet activities she'd partake in. Just got my vote.

I agree. At least she's honest about being a vampire, unlike the rest of those leeches in DC.


  Yep, if she's only 65% Lying Sack of Shit, so she must have a twinge of honesty here & there.....you've spotted it!! (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/congratstext.gif)

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F2GlbVaL.jpg&hash=a96ddfcc5c8347b947a785d9a63e847e" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://imgur.com/2GlbVaL.jpg)
Harry the Impaler
Leech Extraordinaire
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2014-10-20, 08:29:41
I agree. At least she's honest about being a vampire, unlike the rest of those leeches in DC.


Besides, ol' Slick Willy would make a hella first lady gentlemen(?).
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Macallan on 2014-10-21, 11:39:57

I agree. At least she's honest about being a vampire, unlike the rest of those leeches in DC.

Besides, ol' Slick Willy would make a hella first lady gentlemen(?).

Got to keep his willy under control though :right:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-10-23, 03:43:13
That's not gonna happen. Willy's wild willy will wander.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-10-23, 19:53:27
 :faint: :faint: :faint: Now, back to Palin, the Republican answer to Hillary. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-10-25, 21:13:20

:faint: :faint: :faint: Now, back to Palin, the Republican answer to Hillary. :lol: :lol: :lol:


So--- Hillary wins the Democrat Party nomination. Sarah Palin wins the Republican nomination. The rest of the nation, realizing what we now face--- votes Libertarian. By a landslide. It's not even close.

Special note, since I'm thinking about this anyway: Because my situation is what it is, I've already voted by absentee ballot here in the Illinois races. I voted Libertarian for governor because, in truth, I can't stand either of the major candidates. The incumbent (D) is incompetent and needs to be sent home--- but his opponent (R) has so much going against him that I can't in good conscience vote for him, so--- Libertarian it is. After that--- I voted (R) almost throughout. Partly because I have Tea-Party leanings anyway, partly because it's just plain time to send the present occupants of those offices home anyway. They've been there long enough. I did vote for a local bond issue which will likely raise taxes--- but if you've seen the condition of this town's streets you understand that they sorely need repair, and this IS the proper responsibility of government to raise money to repair the streets.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2014-10-26, 01:42:28
but if you've seen the condition of this town's streets you understand that they sorely need repair, and this IS the proper responsibility of government to raise money to repair the streets.

Yes, it is! And, as a Californian, I feel compelled to warn you that - while both state and federal gasoline taxes are supposed to accomplish such - neither has done so: Nail down that "tax" to the specific purpose by statute or referendum... Or accept your potholes and such as your due, from politicians wanting more taxes, more money to spend. (Their priorities are probably not yours... :) )
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-10-26, 01:54:55

but if you've seen the condition of this town's streets you understand that they sorely need repair, and this IS the proper responsibility of government to raise money to repair the streets.

Yes, it is! And, as a Californian, I feel compelled to warn you that - while both state and federal gasoline taxes are supposed to accomplish such - neither has done so: Nail down that "tax" to the specific purpose by statute or referendum... Or accept your potholes and such as your due, from politicians wanting more taxes, more money to spend. (Their priorities are probably not yours... :) )


Heywaitasecond!!!! Wasn't it you, in the Democracy thread, who seemed to think we could actually find honest politicians? So, how comes it you actually admit that at least on the local level-- which is where Villa Park's village board would be-- honesty might be in short supply? So, if honesty is hard to find locally, where the politician lives in town and actually has to deal with his constituents every day across the back-yard fence, we can somehow find these honest politicians to send to state and federal offices, where his/her constituents are hundreds or thousands of miles away?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-10-27, 09:06:06
but if you've seen the condition of this town's streets you understand that they sorely need repair, and this IS the proper responsibility of government to raise money to repair the streets.

People who live in areas outside the freeze-thaw zone don't understand what really bad roads are all about. The southern tier of Michigan is pothole hell. This example isn't the worst.
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSeFojyxe_Lm595YFF3IJR6_k_S8sq_9jQAIyAIIm2gKazHPmsX)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Barulheira on 2014-10-27, 11:22:43
You call that potholes? (Jealousy...)
http://www.raizdavida.com.br/site/portugues/omissao-das-autoridades-e-fatores-ambientais-como-causas-de-acidentes-de-trafego/
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.raizdavida.com.br%2Fsite%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2Fimage6-300x200.jpeg&hash=99e4b0d6836624b20d5593eacdab42ec" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.raizdavida.com.br/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/image6-300x200.jpeg)
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.raizdavida.com.br%2Fsite%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2Fimage10-300x168.jpeg&hash=d843c14e9132cef6217c9f84bf072af4" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.raizdavida.com.br/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/image10-300x168.jpeg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Macallan on 2014-10-27, 12:21:46
It's not a proper pothole unless there's smoke coming out of it :right:
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.offroaders.com%2Falbum%2Fcentralia%2Fjeroen_vervloet%2FIMG_0215b_small.jpg&hash=4f855607eebcfeabd1ee848bde207eff" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.offroaders.com/album/centralia/jeroen_vervloet/IMG_0215b_small.jpg) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia_mine_fire)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-10-27, 12:52:48
As I was about to say, Michigan potholes are nothing, but some are interesting.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F_NMoHO7AdcFo%2FTS3ZJR7sWoI%2FAAAAAAAAAEg%2FPgvs7L403Es%2Fs400%2Fpothole1.jpg&hash=e9e0352e8f6cd4f0fc481f625e886046" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_NMoHO7AdcFo/TS3ZJR7sWoI/AAAAAAAAAEg/Pgvs7L403Es/s400/pothole1.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-10-27, 16:02:46
Heh, nice.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2014-10-27, 21:24:31
So, how comes it you actually admit that at least on the local level-- which is where Villa Park's village board would be-- honesty might be in short supply? So, if honesty is hard to find locally, where the politician lives in town and actually has to deal with his constituents every day across the back-yard fence, we can somehow find these honest politicians to send to state and federal offices, where his/her constituents are hundreds or thousands of miles away?

Look to the party affiliation and philosophy of your candidates, mjm... You will discover the source of the problem. Also, consider the entrenched bureaucracy... (And how it got where it is.)

But, more to your point: In my state, the Democratic strongholds of Sacramento/Bay Area/Los Angeles have made state government a one-party affair.
Not cause for despair, but continually troubling...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-10-28, 01:40:26
I did vote for a local bond issue which will likely raise taxes--- but if you've seen the condition of this town's streets you understand that they sorely need repair, and this IS the proper responsibility of government to raise money to repair the streets.

Here they seem to "repair" perfectly good roads at random. "Let's make it take half an hour drive a mile. Hrm, how about closing a lane at the corner of a Tropicana and Las Vegas Blvd for no apparent reason :yes: " They seem to say. Doing that was actually a little dangerous with that part of town full of tourists of varying levels of sobriety that didn't realize their lane was about to end. That was a few months ago. Now construction on the I-15 freeway during rush hour, never mind that it was smooth as glass already. Meanwhile, at some stoplights millions of tires a year have worn grooves in the road.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Macallan on 2014-10-28, 12:27:43

Here they seem to "repair" perfectly good roads at random.

They're probably afraid to lose their federal/state aid money if they don't use it up.
Yeah, I've seen this here too. For a while the county would just patch up perfectly good roads, then do nothing of the sort for another year or two, rinse & repeat.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-10-28, 21:44:29
In this town, repair of perfectly good roads doesn't seem to be a problem. Finding roads that aren't reverting back to the days when they were mud trails that a team of horses would have difficulty pulling the cart on--- that's the problem.

We have roads in this town that haven't been maintained since I was a boy-- and I'm 59 now so that gives you an idea of just how bad it can get here. The main drags are OK-- the side streets are in real trouble.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2014-10-29, 03:55:51
We have roads in this town that haven't been maintained since I was a boy-- and I'm 59 now so that gives you an idea of just how bad it can get here. The main drags are OK-- the side streets are in real trouble.


Wasteful Social Programs kinda drain all other parts of the budget while they tend to grow like potholes without bottoms.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2014-10-30, 01:05:46

In this town, repair of perfectly good roads doesn't seem to be a problem. Finding roads that aren't reverting back to the days when they were mud trails that a team of horses would have difficulty pulling the cart on--- that's the problem.

We have roads in this town that haven't been maintained since I was a boy-- and I'm 59 now so that gives you an idea of just how bad it can get here. The main drags are OK-- the side streets are in real trouble.


You should come to China. You veer to another part of town and there is a partially paved dust road, dust flying everywhere, the road constricted by road works, traffic grinding to a halt. You come back a couple days later, the dust is gone, as are the workers, and there is shiny new tarmac as far as your somewhat nearsighted eyes can see.  Half the construction in the world happens in China, and it shows.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2014-10-30, 01:48:10
Returning from Chimerica to the Americas, another transport story has the Americas on either end:

Where are the world's most dangerous transit systems for women? (http://edition.cnn.com/2014/10/28/travel/worst-transport-for-women/)

And the winner is:
Quote from: CNN

Here are the results, from ranked from worst to best:
1. Bogota, Colombia
2. Mexico City
3. Lima, Peru

4. New Delhi
5. Jakarta, Indonesia
6. Buenos Aires
7. Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
8. Bangkok
9. Moscow
10. Manila, Philippines
11. Paris
12. Seoul
13. London
14. Beijing
15. Tokyo
16. New York

In other words New York beats the runners up Tokyo, Beijing, London and Seoul in perceived safety. Bogota, Mexico City, and Lima beat the runners up New Delhi and Jakarta in perceived danger.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-10-30, 03:18:36
You come back a couple days later, the dust is gone, as are the workers, and there is shiny new tarmac as far as your somewhat nearsighted eyes can see.  Half the construction in the world happens in China, and it shows.

Okay, bring them here so we can be finished "repairing" perfectly nice roads and freeways :yes:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-10-30, 10:37:25
Jax, Buenos Aires should be in bold type too. It's in Argentina, which is in South America.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2014-10-30, 11:26:16
I actually considered it, but the sample size was 16 so that put Buenos Aires too close to the middle to be remarkable. Yes, it was 6th worst, but it was also 10th best, so I opted for sweeping the city under the carpet. This was based on rankings, not survey score, so for all we know it can be almost as horrid as Bogota or almost as wonderful as NYC.

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2014-11-04, 09:27:15
Feeding or sharing food with homeless people without special authorizations is a criminal act.
The new law reads as "public health and safety measures".

[sarcasm]You don't feed rats, do you? Neither can the police shoot them all, they are too many.[/sarcasm]
And no, unfortunately this is not from The Onion.

http://www.sott.net/article/288427-Florida-police-threaten-arrest-under-new-homeless-hate-law
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fort-lauderdale/fl-lauderdale-homeless-feeding-sites-20141021-story.html
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-11-04, 09:38:06
Meanwhile, church groups and others feed the homeless all the time. Any good sized city has soup kitchens as well social services to help them.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Macallan on 2014-11-04, 11:13:22

Meanwhile, church groups and others feed the homeless all the time. Any good sized city has soup kitchens as well social services to help them.

Remember all those stories in the Orlando Weekly about police kicking homeless people and those trying to help them out of certain areas of the city?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-11-04, 14:07:28
Grabbing one event doesn't prove much, if anything. There are studies of the treatment of homeless people throughout the country that indicates that the problems are widespread. Problems of the homeless are not confined to the US.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-cities-struggle-to-accommodate-rise-in-homeless-a-885484.html

Title: What the Hell is Going on in Obama's Former Kingdom of America?
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2014-11-05, 05:46:51
[move](https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/DemsVsGOP.gif)It's Official: The Republicans take back the Senate, remain in control of the House of Representatives, & overwhelm the demonrats in the State Houses!           It's Official: The Republicans take back the Senate, remain in control of the House of Representatives, & overwhelm the demonrats in the State Houses!          (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/DemsVsGOP.gif) It's Official: The Republicans take back the Senate, remain in control of the House of Representatives, & overwhelm the demonrats in the State Houses!           It's Official: The Republicans take back the Senate, remain in control of the House of Representatives, & overwhelm the demonrats in the State Houses!           It's Official: The Republicans take back the Senate, remain in control of the House of Representatives, & overwhelm the demonrats in the State Houses!        [/move]
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Macallan on 2014-11-05, 15:20:55
It's only news when muslims do it (http://newsok.com/stillwater-man-killed-in-near-beheading-murder-charge-filed/article/5361825):
Quote from: OKnews
STILLWATER -- Covered in blood and still holding a large knife that police say he'd used just minutes before to nearly decapitate his brother's roommate, Isaiah Zoar Marin dialed 911.
...
At a news conference earlier in the day, Stillwater police Capt. Randy Dickerson said Marin admitted to authorities "that he had fantasized recently about committing multiple homicides" and that the victim was "one of his intended targets."

"The conversation was that he had planned to to do it all at one time," the police captain said.

The victim's brother, Jesse Crockett, told police Marin is a "religious zealot" and "heavy drug user," according to a court affidavit.

Police confirmed there was evidence at the scene that Marin might have been involved in the use of some illegal drugs.

The defendant's brother, Samuel Marin, said "in the past Jacob and Isaiah had disagreements because Jacob and Jesse were practicing witchcraft and Isaiah had strong Christian beliefs," a Stillwater police officer reported in the affidavit.
...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2014-11-08, 14:16:56
Remains could be those of 43 missing Mexican students (http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/07/world/americas/mexico-missing-students/)

Quote from: CNN
The 43 Mexican students who disappeared in southern Mexico in September were abducted by police on order of a local mayor, and are believed to have been turned over to a gang that killed them and burned their bodies before throwing some remains in a river, the nation's attorney general said Friday.
This is the conclusion that investigators have reached, Attorney General Jesus Murillo Karam said, though he cautioned that it cannot be known with certainty until DNA tests confirm the identities.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-11-08, 15:30:10
Funny you posting that jax, I just finish watching Procurador da Républica Murillo's one hour long press conference (http://yucatan.com.mx/mexico/delincuencia/declaraciones-de-los-presuntos-asesinos-de-normalistas-video).
He seemed to me as a competent man with a gigantic problem in hands to solve.

As it is, Mexico seems to have already gone wild out of control.

Quote from: Emperor Maximilian I of Mexico
I forgive everyone, and I ask everyone to forgive me. May my blood which is about to be shed, be for the good of the country. Viva Mexico, viva la independencia!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-11-13, 04:17:51
I wouldn't send my worst enemy to Me-hee-co it is a hellish, corrupt and dastardly place.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-11-13, 04:28:07
I wouldn't send my worst enemy to Me-hee-co it is a hellish, corrupt and dastardly place.

Let us now when you actually know something about the place :left:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2014-11-13, 06:59:00
Also: Let us know, RJ, how you determined who was your worst enemy! (Put yourself at the head of the queue, boy-o! :) You've earned it!)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2014-11-14, 01:36:44

Also: Let us know, RJ, how you determined who was your worst enemy! (Put yourself at the head of the queue, boy-o! :) You've earned it!)


Personally, I like RJ.  I do not consider him my mortal enemy.

The IRA & the AOH might, but I can comfortably live in the knowledge that he breathes air!  (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/chuckle002.gif)

After all, he's only a very old & frail man, & he will surly naturally die very soon anyway.

He doesn't need any of my help getting there, though the thought is sometimes tempting. (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.smiley-lol.com%2Fsmiley%2Fheureux%2Flollarge.gif&hash=cc78d35b88dd655637714b01138a1063" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/heureux/lollarge.gif)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: tt92 on 2014-11-14, 02:57:18






he will surly naturally die very soon anyway.

. (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.smiley-lol.com%2Fsmiley%2Fheureux%2Flollarge.gif&hash=cc78d35b88dd655637714b01138a1063" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/heureux/lollarge.gif)

Typo?
Or insightful character analysis?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-11-14, 13:28:51

The victim's brother, Jesse Crockett, told police Marin is a "religious zealot" and "heavy drug user," according to a court affidavit.

religious zealot=heavy drug user

There's little difference.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Barulheira on 2014-11-14, 14:00:11

Personally, I like RJ.  I do not consider him my mortal enemy.

Calm down. Mexico is not that bad. :D
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-11-14, 14:52:25
If you're not a student. :o
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-11-19, 02:04:20
Sanguinemoon are you in a mental retreat?

Time after time Mexico is in the world news. Widespread corruption including the police whpo are hooots with the baddies. Thousands killed annually (with police and authority help) , drugs and crime rampant so one does not have to go there it is in your face so to speak. The idea of Me-hee-co being miscalled is not just laughable it is stupid.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-12-16, 13:06:43
Hockey in the Las Vegas? There's certainly momentum building for bringing a NHL team here :yes:

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2014/dec/15/cautious-approach-bringing-nhl-las-vegas/

Quote
Bill Foley is trying to bring an NHL expansion team to Las Vegas, and so far he's marching in step with Commissioner Gary Bettman.

"I'm an ex-Army guy. I follow orders," Foley told The Canadian Press by phone over the weekend from his home in Northern California. "We've been very careful in our meetings with the NHL administrative staff, just trying to make sure that we do things in the proper fashion. We're not pushy, we're not demanding."

So far, the 70-year-old millionaire businessman has received permission to run a season-ticket drive and isn't pressing for anything more.

...

Quote
"Nevada and Las Vegas in particular are no longer what they were 50 years ago or 40 years ago: a gambling city, kind of a weigh station in the desert," Foley said. "A number of software companies, development companies have located in Las Vegas. ... Those companies and those people who work for those companies, that's our target. Those are the people that we want to have come to these games."

Foley said that after two days of an initial website launch that 1,500 people had expressed interest in buying season tickets.


....

Quote
In hockey circles, the prospect of a Las Vegas team adds a touch of glamor. Locally, the notion of finally attracting a team in one of North America's major four sports leagues is enticing.
Yup, glamorous :cough: :cough: sniff: :wheeze: :the flu:

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2014-12-17, 04:14:26
NHL hockey in Las Vegas? :) Jeez! Why not Anaheim, with Mickey Mouse eared helmets?

Seriously, Sang: Good luck to you! Ice hockey is an interesting game... (The old joke goes: "When the play gets boring, they switch to boxing...") Should you be lucky enough to get a team, when games are broadcast -- watch on your TV, with the sound muted, and listen to your local radio coverage.
Oh, and drink beer! (Start with Heinekens; after a few, you can switch to whatever is locally cheap -- it was Falstaff, for me.)
And -if you're going to play any version of "street" hockey- make sure your insurance covers typical male stupidity!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2014-12-17, 17:05:06
Two countries in a warm embrace in the Americas: US and Cuba seek to normalise ties (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30516740)
Quote from: BBC
US and Cuba are to start talks to normalise diplomatic ties in a historic shift in relations between the two countries, US officials say.

The US is also looking to open an embassy in Havana in the coming months.

The moves are part of a deal that saw the release of American Alan Gross by Cuba and includes the release of three Cubans jailed in Florida for spying.

US President Barack Obama will later hail the "most significant changes in US policy towards Cuba in 50 years".

Mr Obama and the Cuban leader, Raul Castro, are expected to make simultaneous announcements at 17:00 GMT.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-12-18, 04:06:22
And you can bet your last penny that Cubans in Florida and Republicans will go bananas.

Many of the Cubans who fled to Florida decades ago were adherents of the old corrupt and  thuggish system that used to exist. Havana was not just a playground for America but the CIA and as much for the Mafia and criminal world. Instead of helping the Cuban people that went on the back burner due to the corrupt game play. I would have proffered a more democratic system for the island but could understands the way it went.

When you consider that the US has full idiomatic ties and embassies in some very bad places such as Saudi Arabia for example and North Korea the Cuban thing was long overdue for tackling. I dare say that in a second term a US President will want to leave a legacy and understandable and is only a pity this move took so long. I do hope however that something good does come out of this in a very practical way and that the US is not going to be controlled by the maddies in Florida or out-of-date Republicans. So it is now a pleasing move and more power to it and time that the US got to heck with it's base and lack of respect for a country's sovereignty whether it likes the system or not.

Hip-hop-hooray and a pat on the back for Obama and Castro!  :happy:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2014-12-18, 21:27:31
Hip-hop-hooray and a pat on the back for Obama and Castro!   :happy:


I second that ---   (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/cheerskj4.gif)    ---   Guantanamo Bay Forever!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-12-21, 13:41:50

Hip-hop-hooray and a pat on the back for Obama and Castro!   :happy:


I second that ---   (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/cheerskj4.gif)    ---     :no: Guantanamo Bay Forever!  :no:

But only if you approve of the stealing somebody else's country. Me? Not so crazy about it. Our Cuba policy has been batshit crazy a la mode of our Vietnam, Korea, Iraq and Afghanistan policy.

Do you like them, too?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-12-21, 19:36:45
And when chums is the Imperial power going to clear out of Cuba? So much for respecting rights, sovereignty, etc. And I do hope the CIA and their equal pals the Mafia will not be the(returning)  replacement for the existing Cuban regime.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-12-21, 19:47:22
Clear out Cuba?!? You must know that's not going to happen, not now, not ever (probably). Coming, as you do, from over the pond  in the home of past imperialism, you know how those things used to work.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-12-21, 20:25:49
And when chums is the Imperial power going to clear out of Cuba? So much for respecting rights, sovereignty, etc.

When the lease expires :p
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-12-23, 06:57:45
Yes jimbro we all know about Empire BUT we eventually gave it up whereas the glorious US of A (financial and military one) clings on in the self-belief that it will prove all previous imperialism as different unlike theirs! In between the utter political baloney about being the world's greatest country and tall the freedoms tosh the actual  shows something else! In the Cuba matter here is a example of a slap in the US face about regarding sovereignty. No it does not unless you succumb to US influence the corporate legion, etc. Let me remind that Cuba was as corrupt as hell fulllof the American underworld and Mafia as well as a plaything place. Instead of spreading democracy in Cuba the people I mention along with the US Gestapo (CIA) ran the place as they liked. It is for those reasons there was a revolution. No sovereignty respect or concern for the "people" at all. In the overthrow the US was hypocritical in political respects too.

So the old system the US was content with (it supported fascist dictators across S. America) was gone and when told to leave you (as you well enough know I mean the politicos and uniforms) was gone and Cuba basically respected whether you liked the new system or not. I didn't like it but knew well why Cubans went in that direction. Just another one of those global hypocrisies and anyway there is NO reason in today's situation to claim anything military-wise.  Disgusting there is not just an unwanted base (do you pay for it?) there but a torture camp in it that even when victims are found innocent without a trial (!) they are still kept there. It is no different from the North Korean only just a smaller clientèle.  If it was Russia that was the cuplrit all hell would be the order of the day. No right in Cuba and especially a military one. Disgreaceful

As for the routine homelessness it would be a fool to suggest this is not a worldwide thing like illness, life and death. But unfortunately due to all the so-called principled waffle what goes on internally contradicts. Some 40 million poor and a million a year being added with no homes and having to depend on some local church or community volunteers to cope is despicable. It is fine for politicians to be in hoot with reps from commerce and then later get a job with them but stuff those down below. But hey, not to worry when the trillions go into something else I will organise a free raffle as i have 2 spare bedrooms for ex-colonists on a rowing boat who make it here.

As for me althoughIi have a couple of physical health problems I am most certainly capable of avoiding the arrmchair and television. Couch potato is as bad as having an unwanted base. I love walking, speaking at meetings, holding offices in organisations i am in. Buying a new pair of hiking boots for my sojourn walks in the nearby countryside. As for that poor Yank who typically of the republican mentality described me as being Marxist-Lenin inclined recently?! Someone like me in 2 organisations that are strong monarchy movements have stood for a national government party that is far from such rubbish i do worry like the White House does for the state of US education! Although Christmas is a jolly time I am still laughing at that pathetic line.  So I remain a forthright activist mentally AND physically unlike some here.  And the Pope the IRA murderous ratbags, and non-Glaswegians watch out!
:knight: :king:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-12-23, 11:28:17
I have a strange idea, Howie but bear with me. Sort out you're own country first. It doesn't take much digging to find that poverty in Britain is as bad as the US.
http://www.understandingglasgow.com/indicators/poverty/overview

Quote
The Scottish Government published their latest report on poverty and income inequality in Scotland  in July 2014.   The key findings for Scotland were:

a sharp rise in the number of individuals living in relative poverty in 2012/13 - up to 820,000;

rises in the percentage of children in relative poverty (up from 15% in 2011/12 to 19% in 2012/13)

rises in working age people and pensioners in poverty, 15% of adults in each are now defined as living in relative poverty

median income in Scotland in 2012/13 was £23,000, equivalent to £440 per week. This is the third consecutive annual fall in median income in Scotland

the proportion of people in poverty who live in working households increased in 2012/13 - in 2012/13, 52 per cent of working age adults in poverty were living in households where at least one adult was in employment

In this section a range of summary indicators are used to illustrate poverty in Glasgow, including access to a bank account, child poverty, and relative deprivation.  The children's indicators section of Understanding Glasgow contains more detailed information on child poverty within Glasgow.


Note that I said where this comes from so the full article can be reviewed and that everyone can know I didn't take from some commie or other radical anti-UK source. But your interest is in lengthy diatribes against America, not the facts. Christian, are you? What was that Jesus said about taking the plank out your own eye before criticizing someone else about the mote in his?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-12-24, 00:30:57
Well now excuse me but can I remind you of the title of this thread before you rush to condemn me. Can I also remind you that Gt Britain has the fastest growing economy in Europe has greatly reduced unemployment, lessened taxe for low earners and extending that further in the next couple of years. We also plan to raise the minimum wage (try that over the pond and see what happens) , lowering the national debt and so on.  As for the £23,000 point it is perfectly possible to live on that and having done much voluntary work in so-called deprived areas (my education job took me into them too) the population was saturated with Sky tv aerials  more than one tv set, pc's.One part even had two McDonalds! The Welfare State is a brilliant thing but too many have misued it and instead of it being for the genuine full stop there are many who see it as an alternative to work as the State provides so much including housing benefit and help with city taxes, etc. Too many folk get more from the State but in practical fact equally could exist in a job that paid less than public money. So if they do not have all those extras that is regarded as being in poverty. Especially in england there is too much of this giving subsiding houses in an area they would not normally be living in.

Anyway this is about your dreadful social condition. Seems I keep having to recall the ten figure losing homes annually the 40 million poor in the "world's greatest country", jails crammed -and too harsh sentencing in many cases. You should brag less as a country and stop thumping your chest and solve the big problems. This includes trying to do something with the trillions od debts mounting evry day. Yesterday i watched a news item on large numbers of you lot who are of the opinion the way America is going financially it will collapse not too long in the future. Adverts shown and companies making money out of fear and daft emotional which you seem to be always prone too. So boy stop giving the guff and dishing out guff rom your corporate controlled politicians and media and think for yourself and maybe this thread about the Americas would be a bit better and more sensible. Always the same when anything re a thread on the wonderful US of A is challenged The sensible ex-colonists know the truth but the rest are dummies and soak in what they are brained into so grit you teeth boy, wave the flag and look heroic as that will be easier than accpeting the hard facts and the future mess coming!.  :P
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-12-24, 02:09:58
As for the £23,000 point it is perfectly possible to live on that and having done much voluntary work in so-called deprived areas (my education job took me into them too) the population was saturated with Sky tv aerials  more than one tv set, pc's.One part even had two McDonalds!

You think you don't see that the US? Relatively poor apartment complexes in Las Vegas are full of satellite dishes, cable wiring, Del Taco restaurants, Jack in the Box, various locally owned eating establishments, In and Out Burger, etc. The people have flat screen televisions, microwaves, etc. What makes you think otherwise? And we have the problem of welfare being misused: you can take ab EBT card (replacement of foodstamps) and buy pizza at the 7-Eleven. You think lower income areas here are the third world or something? Oh yes, the minimum wage is likely to be raised (and some businesses agree, having realized that lower wages means fewer customers in of the usual kneejerk reaction against it.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-12-24, 07:47:41

There are a number of threads from the Old World, any news from the New? Anything American goes.

It's raining in Spring Hill, Tennessee, this morning.

Tomorrow we're going to our daughter's house in Franklin, Tennessee, for Christmas dinner...a hearty bowl of chicken gumbo soup.

3 chicken breasts, deboned, cooked, diced
2 stalks celery, diced
1 onion, diced
4 cups chicken broth
1 (16 ounce) can tomatoes, undrained
2 teaspoons salt
1/3 cup green pepper, diced
1/3 cup long grain rice, uncooked
1 cup frozen okra
2 tablespoons parsley, chopped
1 bay leaf
1 dash Worcestershire sauce
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.sndimg.com%2Ffood%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fw_266%2Fv1%2Fimg%2Frecipes%2F36%2F87%2FpicH2ZEea.jpg&hash=e7d95c55a13945352aee96bb2e12369a" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://img.sndimg.com/food/image/upload/w_266/v1/img/recipes/36/87/picH2ZEea.jpg)

BTW, Merry Christmas DnD folks!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-12-26, 00:56:07
Well you keep up the Smiley idea of ex-colonist land Sanguinemoon. Being at the bottom is always worse over in your deranged place!

Nice one jimbro.....!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-12-26, 02:30:40
Well you keep up the Smiley idea of ex-colonist land Sanguinemoon

WTF are you babbling about now, Howie? It has nothing to with Smiley nor anyone else, nor was Las Vegas even close to being a British colony (If you really want to split hairs, the land has been a part of the Spanish Empire, but the city didn't exist at that time.) The fact is that in the last couple years, the convenience store pizza (USD 5.55) has been cleared for the EBT card, lower income Americans (and those that don't have their citizenship yet) have satellite dishes, internet, smart phones, etc. Frankly, I don't know where you get your strange ideas about America. Reading to much RT, I suspect. Of course, you have a disturbing tendency to conceal your sources, making it difficult to pinpoint the original source of your bizarre notions.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2014-12-26, 10:01:50
Talk about disgraceful RJ, look in your own backyard!!!

Clean that up before you complain about anyone else's.

Taking sexual advantage of little defenseless ones. The lowest of the low  -- a British National Pastime it seems.

Older men on little boys ---  how putrid, especially when it's condoned by their own!

Pedophilia is out of control in the UK.



UK online pedophiles too many to prosecute: NCA

Quote from:      PTV      http://bit.ly/1xTuaIs  


Britain will not charge pedophiles that possess child abuse images because of the high volume of people engaging in such activities.

According to the head of the UK's National Crime Agency (NCA), Keith Bristow, it was "not realistic" to prosecute the 50,000 people in Britain who have viewed and shared child abuse images.

"Our responsibility is to focus on the greatest risk and tackle those people," he said.

The British Labour party labeled the NCA's inactivity as "disgraceful" and said that the NCA was not fit to deal with the problem.

"This is a disgraceful policy from the National Crime Agency and the Home Secretary which sees the vast majority of people downloading vile child abuse images not investigated, while children remain at risk," said Labour's Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper.

She went on to say that the NCA has details on tens of thousands of offenders who have accessed images of child abuse, but has only made 600 arrests...............


Start by protecting your own before wagging your stink finger elsewhere RJ.

Non-action & lack of British national condemnation wreaks of British complicity.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: string on 2014-12-26, 18:50:21


There are a number of threads from the Old World, any news from the New? Anything American goes.

It's raining in Spring Hill, Tennessee, this morning.

Tomorrow we're going to our daughter's house in Franklin, Tennessee, for Christmas dinner...a hearty bowl of chicken gumbo soup.

3 chicken breasts, deboned, cooked, diced
2 stalks celery, diced
1 onion, diced
4 cups chicken broth
1 (16 ounce) can tomatoes, undrained
2 teaspoons salt
1/3 cup green pepper, diced
1/3 cup long grain rice, uncooked
1 cup frozen okra
2 tablespoons parsley, chopped
1 bay leaf
1 dash Worcestershire sauce
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.sndimg.com%2Ffood%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fw_266%2Fv1%2Fimg%2Frecipes%2F36%2F87%2FpicH2ZEea.jpg&hash=e7d95c55a13945352aee96bb2e12369a" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://img.sndimg.com/food/image/upload/w_266/v1/img/recipes/36/87/picH2ZEea.jpg)

BTW, Merry Christmas DnD folks!
Thanks, Jimbro, for posting a thoroughly palatable post; it's nice to have an enjoyable input. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-12-27, 02:43:27
And somehow those kind of people hardly exist in the ex-colonies? Get you head seen tyo Smiley.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-12-27, 02:46:32
Oh and I forgot to add the obvious (!). THIS THREAD Smiley is about eh AMERICAS not GB so don't fall back on doing a dance to take the heat off. So silly
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-12-27, 16:10:58
That doesn't give you license to slag off about America, without being able to back it up. Of course, you do that regardless of the thread. I can't speak for Smiley, the whole point is that the very things you badmouth America about are happening in the UK.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2014-12-27, 16:21:39
You mean like the chicken gumbo soup?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-12-28, 17:56:28
They're calling for up to three inches of snow in Las Vegas on Wednesday, (http://www.intellicast.com/Local/Weather.aspx?location=USNV0049) with the white stuff starting after midnight. Snow is very unusual around here, been years since the last accumulation in the valley. So a bunch of drunk New Year's partiers in the snow. Sounds like vehicular mayhem to me :left: :insane:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-12-28, 21:47:41
I didn't even know you got snow in the desert. Good for you! :P
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2014-12-28, 23:47:09
Last year Atlanta and this year Las Vegas.. It's starting to seem like there will be snow drifts in hell before we see any accumulation here.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-12-29, 09:18:23
I don't care about the weather, I just want to be an Administrator! :drunk: :wine: :beer: :cheers:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2014-12-29, 09:42:37
True. They just sit at the desk drunk all day making rules that hurt business. Fortunately, we all but say "suck our balls" and ignore their orders. The next they don't remember yesterday's drunken ramblings anyway, so it's all good. :yes: Speaking of drunken ramblings, why is bottle of rum half empty all ready. I think it must be the liqueur stealing gnomes again, damn them to bloody hell :irked:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Macallan on 2014-12-29, 13:01:17

They're calling for up to three inches of snow in Las Vegas on Wednesday, (http://www.intellicast.com/Local/Weather.aspx?location=USNV0049) with the white stuff starting after midnight.

And here it's rainy 50ish. Temperatures are supposed to drop well below freezing by next week though :right:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Macallan on 2014-12-29, 13:02:13

I don't care about the weather, I just want to be an Administrator! :drunk: :wine: :beer: :cheers:

Now that would give rjhowie a heart attack :whistle:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Macallan on 2014-12-29, 13:05:40

I think it must be the liqueur stealing gnomes again, damn them to bloody hell :irked:

Could be worse. Could be the beer ghost (http://satwcomic.com/the-scariest-ghost-ever) :insane:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-12-30, 02:12:41
If you think I would have a heart attack you are so wrong there Macallan as it would take more than an ex-colonist or any hoi-polloi here. If on the other hand someone from Edinburgh that could be different but with free health care for all here not a worry.  ;)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2014-12-30, 03:40:33
I know what would give you a heart attack; us joining the Commonwealth.  :left:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: tt92 on 2014-12-30, 08:21:39

If you think I would have a heart attack you are so wrong there Macallan as it would take more than an ex-colonist or any hoi-polloi here. If on the other hand someone from Edinburgh that could be different but with free health care for all here not a worry.  ;)

Have you any idea what hoi polloi means?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2014-12-30, 20:37:14


Have you any idea what hoi polloi means?

It's a Chinese dish. At least I think it is.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2014-12-30, 20:48:55
In context it would seem to mean- Nice, intelligent and otherwise generally decent people. :whistle:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-12-30, 20:51:22


Have you any idea what hoi polloi means?


In this case, it means he thinks he's gooder than us common folk.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2014-12-30, 23:02:33
Actually Mike, 'hoi polloi'  is  the  'Common People',  the masses, the herd, the rabble, the riffraff. 

The 'hoity-toity' is what I believe you defined -- the upper class, the superior sect, the rich, the successful.

(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/cheerskj4.gif)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2014-12-31, 00:31:27

Actually Mike, 'hoi polloi'  is  the  'Common People',  the masses, the herd, the rabble, the riffraff. 

The 'hoity-toity' is what I believe you defined -- the upper class, the superior sect, the rich, the successful.

(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/cheerskj4.gif)


I called it about right. The ol' boy's looking down his patrician nose at us common folk, thinks he's better than you'nme.  Some of that comes from being a Royalist-- the higher up the nobility food-chain you are, the more likely you are to think that the "hoi polloi" is a lower branch of human from your station.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: tt92 on 2014-12-31, 01:33:01
Actually, my original point was that "hoi polloi" means "the common people".
"The hoi polloi" is a tautology.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2014-12-31, 04:34:15
Must say there are times mjsmsprt40 when you and your pal Smiley have lost the plot with that amusing stuff about me being a monarchist and hoity toity. I say that as you both come from a land that is constantly boasting about everything. The greatest country the greatest army (groan) the greatest freedom (another groan) and some of the politicians who shout that arrogant nationalistic ranting stuff out along with an emotional audience that will hoot and holler is more nearer the truth than then stuff about me!

However I do try to keep my traditional sense of hope that one day the stranglehold of the two dumb parties the Republicans and Democrats will be broken and the country can get back to looking after it's people instead of looking arrogant and hypocritical. A decent people who have been conned. Because you are not a monarchy does not mean that a Republic is somehow automatically better democracy as the truth shows something else. And anyway on a lesser not because someone is a Monarchist means they are automatically on the same level as the person on the throne is rather pathetic I am sorry to say!  :lol:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2015-01-01, 08:43:08
Did anyone know RJ recently visited to preach his vitriol in the USA......  (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/chuckle002.gif)

(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/hilander.gif) Yep, he had a few sweet choice words for our NYC friends, who, to say the least, found him a tad bit 'different'.



.......... (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/laughing13.gif)

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2015-01-01, 09:30:07
Republicans and Democrats

And for some reason Labour and Conservative are so much better and let's throw in the SNP for good measure :p
Yep, he had a few sweet choice words for our NYC friends, who, to say the least, found him a tad bit 'different'.

He never told us he was that young when he visited. So I contacted a doctor friend of mine and we took his phonebooth back to 1869 to investigate. There was slight mishap and the cars in the video came with us. Even with that mistake on our part (really mine since I was  :drunk: at the time, indeed am now) we were able to confirm through DNA testing that it was indeed Howie.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-01-01, 16:29:06
We need a separate topic entitled People in DnD Who Bother Me.
Rj has opinions that I don't agree with, but that's true of a number of posters.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2015-01-01, 16:48:10

We need a separate topic entitled People in DnD Who Bother Me.
Rj has opinions that I don't agree with, but that's true of a number of posters.


What's stopping you? I can't promise the thread would live long--- a thread with a title like that promises to have the kind of trouble that gets it dumped-- but if it can be kept reasonably clean maybe-- just maybe...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-01-01, 16:54:38
I can't promise the thread would live long

:lol:

Yeah, that sounds like a goner.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-01-01, 18:31:42


We need a separate topic entitled People in DnD Who Bother Me.
Rj has opinions that I don't agree with, but that's true of a number of posters.


What's stopping you? I can't promise the thread would live long--- a thread with a title like that promises to have the kind of trouble that gets it dumped-- but if it can be kept reasonably clean maybe-- just maybe...

Well, I have no interest in setting that up. It was just me being loopy in response to yet one more "attack" on Rj.

I don't agree that it wouldn't last long. It would start with a few goofy entries and then migrate to discussions of Putin, religion, food and toads. Consider that this thread is "What's Going on in the Americas?" Capishe?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2015-01-01, 19:08:28
[Move]NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH ........................ NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH ........................ NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH ........................ NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH ........................ NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH ........................ NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... NEWS FLASH .......................... [/Move]










(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/tink.gif)     It's been reported, but yet to be confirmed, that RJHOWIE has made a startling New Year's Resolution to change his sometimes black heart into a more gentle & homely vessel of good will & joy for all (even Americans)!!







(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/clapping.gif)   If this be true, let's all get behind RJ, & wish him all the best in this Wonderful New Year!  (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/clapping.gif) 
(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/kissingmonkey002.gif)




Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-01-01, 20:53:15
Oh for the love of Mike -Smiley trying to show how reasonable he is and i am some kind of gnome. This coming from a man who supports Irish terrorists and the same group are very left wing and Marxist leaning! Gives me a laugh when others scurrilously ignore that side of things.  II used to say there were decent and sensible ex-colonists (and still exist) but it is the way the country is run and the guff it comes out with. After all it bleats about being the world leader on democracy, rights, freedoms yet practises something else. Builds an imperial empire even though it is nearly financially broke, rabbits about sovereignty of nations then creates a war with the ones that do not succumb either the the "way of life" or commercial side.

That there are people here who cannot differentiate between a system and individuals shows yet another blank in ex-colonist education. If as a country you were to stop shouting about how great and above board whilst doing something else in contrast. It is so easy to blast the corrupt system because of the in-you-face policies that are distant from the self claims! One doesn't have to make them up. Try not to be a military bully and cut the military, keep out of the internal affairs of places you don't like, do something about the corporates that president Eisenhower (a blinking Republican too!) and you know what, I would have no basis for the easy pot-shots! Instead be more internal as there are large numbers of the citizenry who are suffering no matter how much you stick a flag up their noses.

Withdrawing the interference will not probably work in our lifetimes but the day will come when the decent suffer even more so over the water when things collapse. You can shout all you like about me because the facts are in your face. In my life i can disagree with those in my circle but we don't come out with that blabber lie the Irish-American, terror man mentality. I will even pay gis fare to Edinburgh or N. Korea.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2015-01-01, 21:25:56

(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/clapping.gif)   ........... let's all get behind RJ, & wish him all the best in this Wonderful New Year!  (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/clapping.gif) 


Oh for the love of Mike -Smiley trying to show how reasonable he is and i am some kind of gnome.


(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/HeDidIt.gif)            (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fz94nC5Q.jpg&hash=24fb26f1a7b5e366b0c63115c7cb5b93" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/z94nC5Q.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-01-02, 04:18:08
I know him. He was the captain of the biggest BB Company in the whole of Glasgow north of the River Clyde some 50 odd companies and was interviewed on the BBC radio for his in-depth voluntary leadership in a challenging district etc. At one stage there was even suggestion of a documentary. In addition he became a magistrate for his community service and flown to an intercity conference to do 3 workshops. His company was so attractive that youths came from a distance to take part and families had him dedicating kids and doing funerals, etc.  Thanks for letting me be reminded of him Smiley  and a pity it contradicts your stance. Oh and he was also once praised by a priest would you believe and he is an Orangeman to boot! He also had more RC boys in his work than any other in the city. Hhm, must get to know him again.

Interesting that you spent time searching and only find positives........ :( eh?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-01-02, 14:20:35

Oh and he was also once praised by a priest would you believe

Not always the best person to be praising a friend.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2015-01-02, 16:28:05
Interesting that you spent time searching and only find positives.

Not nearly as interesting as how much time you spend watching the telly absorbing porcupines. Watch out, they're distracting you. They want you to believe these things are 'our' problems alone. Don't fall for it as so many do here. Your country's obsession with the state of our union is unhealthy for your own well-being. They mock you. They tell you want you want and that you are smart to believe it. But you're not. They tell you it's horrible so you don't think they do it. They tell you we are weak for it, but they can do nothing to stop it. They tell you we are so different, but we're not. As dawn breaks and policies change in reaction to what is learned, like they have so many times before here and there, I fear you will have missed this chance to learn from those happenings.

As we look into the past we don't just see how it was but forever how it could be...

As you hold on to the vestiges of your imperial regime remember your pride also came at a cost to others. 'You' tried to make the world in your own image but now can't stand what you see in the mirror. While you look away, afraid of what you might see, 'they' cover the mirror with an idealistic painting that gives no hint of the truth. And when you look back you can almost forget how that pride almost destroyed us all. Not because 'you' felt it but because 'you' resented others that did too.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2015-01-02, 16:47:42
Well said, ensbb3. :yes:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2015-01-02, 17:12:47
I know him.

But what is that dreadful city behind him? I daresay our architecture is  89.519637 percent cooler. Not to worry, I'll phone the construction companies to come up there and level the place in order to build it fresh. You won't have to pose in front of such drab and energy inefficient buildings ever again. :yes: You're welcome.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2015-01-02, 19:11:50
 :cheers: Thx.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-01-02, 19:20:45
And from a country where cities go bankrupt?  A poor level of trying to dig.

Must say ensbb3 that you and Sanguinemoon are well matched but hardly middle of the road reasonables! There are others here who are intelligent, watch televisio,n given links and so on and the fact that you try to isolate me shows how stretched you are in grey cells and sense. If unable to answer direct challenges you resort to the attempts to isolate. I am trying to avoid looking at you as thick and unable to cope with any negatives about the US imperial empite because that is what it is without having to look after the vassal States admin-wise!

Then the additional guff about our days of Empire which we eventually gave upo but you lot have got yourselves hooked up to trillions in debt to try and show that your empire will be more brilliant than any previous one. Why you wanted to go in that direction is something else. Soldiers everywhere in hundreds of camps that you cannot really afford, war creating for the benefit of the Pentagon and it's military corporate pals. If you got rid of this global paranoia the American population (especially tens of millions) vould have a Health Service and a far better internal situation but nope you are hell bent on wanting to control the world instead.

At the same time there are those over the water I have a personal regard for and not politically motivated and perhaps not touched by the state of the place financially or indeed politically but there are far too many who are ina country that constantly propagates arrogance and misuse the natural loyalty of the people. Such attitudes are not so much "patriotic" but fervent nationalism hiding behind a word that the general population accepts. Call me what you like but the trouble is that your political masters (corporates and the Hill alliance) misuse large numbers of decent and sensible Americans and just unfortunate that you two especially have automatically departed from that sensible consensus. Although the democrats are not that A1 the Republican mindset is something else and produces a laugh to the world.

All sensible ex-colonists have a good new year and the others in the "we are the greatest" mindset please thank the Chinese Communists for keeping you afloat!  ??? :lol:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-01-02, 20:48:12
Eight bankrupt cities out of about 20,000. That's eight too many, though.

You seem to enjoy such things.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2015-01-02, 20:57:11
Smiley tried to cut the ol'boy some slack (asking us to give RJ a break), RJ responded by heaping more abuse on America and Americans every chance he gets. Hmmmm....
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2015-01-02, 20:58:48
You try so hard, rj. It's cute at times.

And from a country where cities go bankrupt?

America big. Many cities. Many different circumstance.

watch televisio,n given links and so on and the fact that you try to isolate me shows how stretched you are in grey cells and sense.

Your paranoia has produced an imaginary friend?

imperial empite

[Re-re]dundant.

Why you wanted to go in that direction is something else.

Actually in a general sense the US didn't. All those contradictory argument of the US not wanting to get involved in European affairs you make are the problem. They had no choice in the end. The European continent ripped its self apart, twice. 

At the same time there are those over the water I have a personal regard for and not politically motivated and perhaps not touched by the state of the place financially or indeed politically

So you like the people that you were bitching about weren't voting now? You realize if those you've imagined got involved it would be a good thing, right?

Chinese Communists for keeping you afloat!

What's wrong with the Chinese now? Oh, right. They aren't from Glasgow.

Keep laughing chuckles. I'm sure your schools there are adequate, one can only theorize as to the problem.

...

I'm aware of the problems here. Big numbers confuse you so I won't bother with much on the national debt. When you gain new information you remind me of my dog when he catches an old rabbit anyway. Rarely gets a hold of one and so elated when he does he thrashes at it with no idea what to do with it. Suffice it to say our economy is big. The bankruptcy thing gets played at home too. It's not that realistic, they just never wanna cut the military budget. How easily you and many here (in the US) get pulled along with that is interesting. And other than you've heard the US owes China money you have no idea why. Been awhile since I've checked the numbers but the total annual intake was a trillion or so dollars more than the US owes China last time I checked. Boosting their economy has been a part of policy for over a decade. Otherwise most debt is owed internally and other than holding in surplus cannot be repaid. (They can always spend money sitting around, so meh.)

Social issues abound, here is no different. And health care is a bigger problem than throwing money at it. Pharmaceutical regulation is needed. *Prepares for a laughable use of that* My state used to have good health care but got federally screwed. Regardless, plenty of worthwhile concerns as with there and other places, you've just yet to describe one accurately. I'm not happy with it all but I live in a society so cope.

If ever I become as bitter as you I hope someone tells me. It's adorable at times but you're in the way of progress. But I am glad your rantings are so fool-hearty.  
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-01-03, 06:58:43
Typical when unable to answer a point is to go waffling on in some alternative plant. Considering the US is so anti-Red in it's history and also recently send a fleet down to the China Sea to intimidate maybe you should rethink why you suitably ignored that. Considering how much you are in hock to the dictatorial Communist regime makes your patter laughable. They just need to call in the debt and you are finished so keep sooking in with them whatever you do.

You are priceless.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-01-03, 10:27:32
Then the additional guff about our days of Empire which we eventually gave upo but you lot have got yourselves hooked up to trillions in debt to try and show that your empire will be more brilliant than any previous one. Why you wanted to go in that direction is something else. Soldiers everywhere in hundreds of camps that you cannot really afford, war creating for the benefit of the Pentagon and it's military corporate pals. If you got rid of this global paranoia the American population (especially tens of millions) vould have a Health Service and a far better internal situation but nope you are hell bent on wanting to control the world instead.

I have to grant you that one, Rj, but for the "you are hell bent part. Many, if not most of us, McCain and his Republican pals excepted, are sick of it. 213,407 dead in WWII when Stalin and friends were capable of sealing the deal.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-01-03, 10:29:46
Your avatar is making me confuse you for someone else. :P
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-01-03, 10:38:02
I recently moved to Tennessee. That's our state flag.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2015-01-03, 12:34:12
  :happy:



(Lol, I was a little confused for a second... Thought I was sleep posting.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Macallan on 2015-01-03, 14:49:38

I recently moved to Tennessee. That's our state flag.

Welcome to Redneckistan :cheers:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Mandi on 2015-01-03, 18:16:52


I recently moved to Tennessee. That's our state flag.

Welcome to Redneckistan :cheers:


:lol: I think you started something ensbb3.  :P I will leave this to you gentlemen though.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2015-01-03, 18:23:21
Bit of a delayed reaction.

You're the only Tennessean left not flying the flag... The lady can do as she pleases, of course.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Mandi on 2015-01-03, 18:33:17
I was going to say something about it this morning but I passed out instead.

I think it would lead to more confusion. Plus, my phone is psychotic this morning. Notifications about stopped updates keep popping up.   :o
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2015-01-03, 18:38:10

I was going to say something about it this morning but I passed out instead.

I think it would lead to more confusion. Plus, my phone is psychotic this morning. Notifications about stopped updates keep popping up.   :o


They should push 5.0 to your device any day now. But that error usually comes if wifi signal gets lost while the market app is trying to batch update.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Mandi on 2015-01-03, 18:41:21

They should push 5.0 to your device any day now. But that usually comes if wifi signal gets lost while the market app is trying to batch update.


Ahhh, I see. That explains it. A refrigerator is to blame for this.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2015-01-03, 22:53:00


I recently moved to Tennessee. That's our state flag.

Welcome to Redneckistan :cheers:



May as well play the anthem.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-01-04, 02:03:17
Hope you manage to adapt to your new dialect jimbro.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2015-01-05, 04:50:22
Well now, if we're representing our various state flags, I'll bring one of our own out of retirement.


ETA: For the no-doubt, wondering Mr. Howie, the flag I have put up as my avi is called "The Magnolia Flag". It's what we flew in MS for the brief time that we told Mr. Lincoln to get stuffed, and were independent.

I might draw your attention that it incorporates the Bonnie Blue in the top left corner, as you seem to enjoy Civil War tidbits and such.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Sanguinemoon on 2015-01-05, 06:12:36
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.netstate.com%2Fstates%2Fsymb%2Fflags%2Fimages%2Fnv_fil.gif&hash=9d6ae032f17fb0497e68ace59dd55c47" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.netstate.com/states/symb/flags/images/nv_fil.gif)

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fe%2Fed%2FFlag_of_Las_Vegas%252C_Nevada.svg%2F800px-Flag_of_Las_Vegas%252C_Nevada.svg.png&hash=932fef84e28129e8c6047771011d788e" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/Flag_of_Las_Vegas%2C_Nevada.svg/800px-Flag_of_Las_Vegas%2C_Nevada.svg.png)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Macallan on 2015-01-05, 13:58:27
Enough flag waving for me :right:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-01-06, 03:59:52
Thanks for that Colonel and I have always been a sympathiser of the South. Here we can have a referendum on being in a Union or not but over the water such democracy is not there. Hd I done a third visit to the ex-colonies I would have visited the Confederate White House and given a long sigh!

Well Macallan the US is the No 1 for flag waving. By the way Colonel is there still a State flag with the battle flag - you know the stars n' bars?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Mandi on 2015-01-09, 21:59:19
I'm not sure if this falls under this topic or not but my youngest niece received a Nabi tablet for Xmas. I know. I know. Go to a tech forum, right? Well it's not about a malfunctioning device. It has come to my attention that the Nabi has an NSA icon. It's nonfunctional. Also, it can't be deleted because it doesn't even show up under the application manager, as it is not an app. Why would this be on a children's tablet? My paranoid sister thinks that it's for spying purposes but why would they advertise it, if that is so?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2015-01-09, 22:21:22
You should PM me this kind of stuff. :P
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Mandi on 2015-01-09, 22:26:26
But you be man. Man who do work. Be busy.  :lol:
I figured it out and realized I asked a completely dumb question that Google could answer for me quickly. :facepalm: I should have started there. I blame it on not being fully awake.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2015-01-09, 22:30:31
Not enough info to go on but seems like a system app. No clue as to it's function but the NSA doesn't need an app for that.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Mandi on 2015-01-09, 22:36:13
I found it stands for Nabi Security Administration. Not what my sis initially thought. What a way to scare some paranoid people anyway.

No clue as to it's function but the NSA doesn't need an app for that.

Yea, I thought they could hack anything.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2015-01-09, 22:42:09
Google is god. And I quit listening to my sister years ago, things have been great! :D
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Mandi on 2015-01-09, 22:45:18
 :lol: I might have to.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2015-04-01, 18:19:34
Quote
The New York Times continues its slide into becoming little more than a neocon propaganda sheet as it followed the Washington Post in publishing an op-ed advocating the unprovoked bombing of Iran

source (https://consortiumnews.com/2015/03/28/nyt-publishes-call-to-bomb-iran/)


John Bolton, the neocon scholar from the American Enterprise Institute calls to bomb Iran (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/opinion/to-stop-irans-bomb-bomb-iran.html?_r=0) while the New York Times' star neocon columnist Thomas L. Friedman is floating the idea of the U.S. arming the Islamic State (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/18/opinion/go-ahead-ruin-my-day.html).

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2015-04-01, 20:27:01
Friedman is no neocon. His job is to write a column every week, not to make sense, and he succeeds with the former.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2015-04-01, 20:31:27
Don't worry, Krake. I have doubts that even the most drunken denizens of the Pentagon and the alphabet soup of spy-guy agencies think that any good could come from an unprovoked attack on Iran-- or anybody else for that matter. If the US did that, it wouldn't be just you and RJH saying bad things about the US. No way to win the bad-press war an unprovoked attack would cause.

About the US arming Islamic State-- in the current state of affairs, what on Earth have you been smoking? Even His Royal Highness, Emperor Obama doesn't think that is something we'd want to do.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: tt92 on 2015-04-01, 21:47:58
Could the date be relevant?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2015-04-02, 03:57:25

Don't worry, Krake. I have doubts that even the most drunken denizens of the Pentagon and the alphabet soup of spy-guy agencies think that any good could come from an unprovoked attack on Iran-- or anybody else for that matter. If the US did that, it wouldn't be just you and RJH saying bad things about the US. No way to win the bad-press war an unprovoked attack would cause.

Why did this not stop unprovoked wars before, say, on Iraq?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2015-04-02, 06:37:33
Leaving the US bashing aside for a second, there is a cautionary tale embedded in that question. Before the run-up to the invasion, and then several years after, US and European popular opinions on the sensibility of an/the invasion broadly coincided. That was before the propaganda started/after it petered out.

Saddam Hussein was subtly and not so subtly conflated with the attacks on September 11, which even with the information available at the time was nonsense. Critical voices, like France's, were attributed to their traditional martial cowardice (which, in the case of France, was ironic; it is as bellicose a nation as Europe can muster). These were the days of Freedom Fries. The propaganda worked. In the manner of months the American nation was on the war path.

All those checks and balances, all those trappings of civilised society, were proven useless. The American public was being had, and so easily. The opposition (at that time the Democrats) was busy getting re-elected and not to support a losing cause, whatever the merits. The ostensibly critical press quiet, no benefit in asking awkward questions.

It happened in the US of A, but could happen in any democratic country with surplus war machinery. Had the US had real worries about a Canadian-Mexican invasion the Iraq war would never happened. Similarly, Europeans has spent the last 3000 years fighting each other. Now that that spat is over, limited global reach is what stops "peaceful" Europeans from doing the same. Democracy would be no deterrent here either.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2015-04-02, 08:57:38
Critical voices, like France's, were attributed to their traditional martial cowardice (which, in the case of France, was ironic; it is as bellicose a nation as Europe can muster). These were the days of Freedom Fries.
I'd like to agree with you -- a bit: "Freedom Fries" was, indeed, silly.
But two things stick:
Compared to Germany -at least, recently! -(You know: like the last hundred some-odd years?)- France can hardly be called or accused of being bellicose. (One needs to go back further... [We'll forgive Algeria, eh? :)]) What you maybe mean is:
Your country wasn't involved? :)

What you call "propaganda" is intel that you don't understand... That's understandable: Sadam's Iraq -given the short tussle after his invasion of Kuwait- led to our "invasion"... Others agreed, that was justified.
What you must mean is that you'd prefer thugs and bullies be -- un-molested!
That's all well and good, for someone who flits across borders, and ideologies... And seems to have no allegiances.

Sometimes, jax, I have no idea where you're coming from... :(

The second thing is simple: You prefer a state-ist solution to real problems, even though you must know that such will fail miserably... (Recall your thread about charity and government largesse.) If -perhaps- you don't know why, watch China for a few decades more.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2015-04-02, 09:15:46

Leaving the US bashing aside for a second, there is a cautionary tale embedded in that question. Before the run-up to the invasion, and then several years after, US and European popular opinions on the sensibility of an/the invasion broadly coincided....

Saddam Hussein was subtly and not so subtly conflated with the attacks on September 11, .... The propaganda worked.

What? You genuinely believe that? Whatever sympathy the United States had for September 11 attacks, it managed to squander all of it already by the start of Afghanistan war. People in Europe were near-unanimously against the Iraq war. The governments who participated in the Iraq "effort" did not ask the people.


It happened in the US of A, but could happen in any democratic country with surplus war machinery. Had the US had real worries about a Canadian-Mexican invasion the Iraq war would never happened. Similarly, Europeans has spent the last 3000 years fighting each other. Now that that spat is over, limited global reach is what stops "peaceful" Europeans from doing the same. Democracy would be no deterrent here either.

No government anywhere asked the people. This means it was not democracy. It was democracy only perhaps in some very twisted sense.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2015-04-02, 11:28:13
What you call "propaganda" is intel that you don't understand... That's understandable: Sadam's Iraq -given the short tussle after his invasion of Kuwait- led to our "invasion"... Others agreed, that was justified.
What you must mean is that you'd prefer thugs and bullies be -- un-molested!
That's all well and good, for someone who flits across borders, and ideologies... And seems to have no allegiances.

What? You genuinely believe that? Whatever sympathy the United States had for September 11 attacks, it managed to squander all of it already by the start of Afghanistan war. People in Europe were near-unanimously against the Iraq war. The governments who participated in the Iraq "effort" did not ask the people.


The European and US opinion on Iraq broadly matched up until shortly before the invasion -- they were against it -- and broadly agreed years afterwards -- it was not such a good idea. Just a few month of government propaganda changed the US opinion numbers dramatically in a crucial period.  Saddam Hussein was a ruthless tyrant posing a threat to his own government, people, and neighbour. Assessing that threat, assessing any threat, was challenging. If that threat was large enough, and urgent enough, an invasion could be considered some form of preventive self-defence. Uniquely in the US Iraq were regularly linked with 9/11 in the media, clearly nonsense even at that time, but it was nonsense "intel" that worked very well for its intended purpose and audience. Ironically after the invasion the country grew ripe for Al Qaeda-affiliated brands like Al Nusra and ISIL.

There is little in the invasion and occupation that hasn't been done to death. From a utilitarian point of view removing Saddam Hussein from power had value. I could imagine a scenario where Iraq handled better could have net benefits, where the invasion would be relatively successful.

The Iraq War and its consequences is not what I am interested in here, but that democracy is no deterrent to war. It is highly unlikely that politicians would or should "ask the people", but it would be a nice hope that the checks present in a democracy would prevent meaningless adventures, given that the would-be military adventurer and his supporters would want re-election. Of course, relative to the whims of an absolute ruler getting political support for a war is more complicated, but if you follow the right formula you should succeed in your venture.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-04-02, 20:57:45
an invasion could be considered some form of preventive self-defence.

If that was to be true, everyone would invade the EUA.
And I suspect that would be not a too much difficult thing to do. For some reason they move desperately in substituting their men by machines.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-04-03, 01:43:51
So right that being democratic doesn't not stop wars. At the same time with the way Europe is invading that would be easy the mess it is in.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2015-04-03, 06:54:04
an invasion could be considered some form of preventive self-defence.


Could it? If the invaded country is thousands miles away from your borders?
Nice spin even though it's a rotten one.


Ironically after the invasion the country grew ripe for Al Qaeda-affiliated brands like Al Nusra and ISIL.


That was a logic consequence and the destabilization of the entire region was predicted by many. It's what happens if you create a power vacuum on purpose to push for regime changes according to your geo-strategic interests.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-04-03, 08:27:01

an invasion could be considered some form of preventive self-defence.


Could it? If the invaded country is thousands miles away from your borders?
Nice spin even though it's a rotten one.

Nice quote mine. :right:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2015-04-03, 15:18:05
Twenty-year sentence handed to Purvi Patel for death of foetus condemned by women's groups (http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/twentyyear-sentence-handed-to-purvi-patel-for-death-of-foetus-condemned-by-womens-groups-10148831.html)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-04-04, 00:45:19
I wouldn't want to be thought I was America bashing but it is the most regular country to sanction, destabilise or invade more than anyone else. Time after time a president and the usual formal answers is it is for "defence" or that other long overused word, "Security."

If a country is a dictatorship then that is their business and problem and before someone tells me that is not moral there is a glaring answer...Saudi Arabia. Seems the West and it's leader picks and chooses which dictatorship to be hand in hand with and more glaringly immoral!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2015-04-04, 01:57:53
I wouldn't want to be thought I was America bashing but it is the most regular country to sanction, de-stabilise or invade more than anyone else.
RJ, I've smoked for 50 years! Hence the underlined above almost killed me with the laughter it evoked. :)
Seems the West and it's leader picks and chooses which dictatorship to be hand in hand with and more glaringly immoral!
You -ah- do realize how Saudi Arabia was formed...? :)
(Nah! Too complicated. Turn on the telly!)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-04-05, 01:23:30
You have been reading a dancing book again dear American wanderer. Your country and it's leadership treat Saudi Arabia as a great place and we should all follow that lead even though the country is a hell hole of no rights, freedoms, etc. A man is being flogged 1,000 times and the Saudis have told the Germans and your neighbours, Canda to mind their own business. Now would you have a bse in Saudi??

Interesting that the West's great leader goes on about rights, freedoms and such but then decides which abominable dictatorship we should all shake hands with.Now here is a more localised thing on the "Americas."

A man is released from jail after decades in the ex-colonies as the original evidence has been found to be wanting after so long. But what makes it worse is the man (black of course) has been on Death Row for 30 damn years!! How in whoever's name can a country claiming so many high ended "principles" have a man under the death threat for 3 decades?? Others have been 10 but this is even more diabolical. It shows that not only the political system is now deeply flawed but the legal one is a nutjob paradise. Sick and disgusting for a man tortured by that for so long.

Yet another two wide flaws in the principled claims of the world's greatest democracy (yeah!).
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2015-04-05, 04:10:59
Yet another two wide flaws in the principled claims of the world's greatest democracy [...]
"World's greatest democracy" is your sneering term for the country whose wealth and influence eclipsed yours. That's understandable. But it wasn't so much our ascendency but your "descendency" -- the result of the choices you made as a colonial power.

But cheer up! It could, in that case, be worse: Think of Portugal and the Netherlands! (Or -need I remind you- Rome! :) )
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-04-06, 02:21:27
Oh I dare say there is a degree of sneering Oakdale but for very wide and obvious reasons. However being a place that constantly bleats about democracy, rights, principles, fairness and democracy the same things are under default in the homeland. Government and big business is intertwined even in government agencies that are meant to ensure propriety in industry, commerce, farming, etc. You need toi be rich to be a Congressman or Senator.Outside of that remit and forget it. Hundreds of bases around the world for "our security" (US but means to safeguard corporate money. Time after time countries said to be terrible dictatorships have been surrounded, de-stabiiised, invaded. Usually a mess afterwards  Phones, computers, credit cards, personal communication all spied on for "security." Jails bulging with millions, people on death row for years, rights trampled on millions of poor and so on. More spy agencies all competing costing horrific amounts as well as a military bill that is half what the global total is!

What I have said before about Eisenhower is correct too and he was in the Republican camp! Trouble is that he was proved right. The routine small people haven't a chance in hell over in the land of the hand across the heart. Big company, big farming conglomerate, etc then fine. Small company, small farm and so on the constitution principles have been usurped. As a country you have gradually lost your birthright i am afraid so all the fanatical flag waving nationalism, greedy people are all that counts today. Just think if you reduced the military greatly how you could deal properly with the tens of millions of US poor. That in iself would be a massive help instead of creating tensions, supporting vile regimes and terror groups that sit a global corporate gree. Then Americans would have got their country back as it is no longer a reasonable free market capitalism it is now a greedy corporate top lot that control the place. Love of country has been stolen by those creeps and would be a proper place in the world rather than the one it has just now.

The only sad reflection is that it is becoming like a gradual Police State and playground for the money barons and they have stoled the attributes the country seemed to be developing and the future is going in the same disastrous way as recently. Wish it were not so.  :(
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2015-04-06, 03:00:36
Wish it were not so.   :(

Perhaps you do... But your rant is very dear to you! I suppose you could get by with bashing Israel, though. I wonder: Is it television that breeds such bile? Or merely your weather? :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-04-07, 03:29:11
Oh you feel free to rabbit on with your wandering grey cells there. I have pointed out time after time how ridiculous America is. It claims all sorts of lofty ideals but doesn't actually practice them at home or the world. It niggles Yanks because the way they have been brought up wit the flag stuffed down their mental throats and all the claimed titles! You lot can call me what you like but when it comes to the basics of your own corner you are a soppy bunch and get miffed at others elsewhere not being taken in by hypocrisy with a capital H!

The answer is to actually live that Constitution but the system has been taken over by money and if you so-called thinking ex-colonists cannot see that then the problem is even worse. It does not matter one jot which of the two gigantic parties are in the White House as the ordinary people have been conned into a long time submission. Do away with armed conflict and giant military wanderings on the globe, reduce all those damn so-called security organisations, help the millions suffering over there, the trillions debt, help your own sufferers internally  and what a difference it would make. Why can't you even grudgingly accept that Eisenhour was correct and at a stroke be honest for a change!  ???
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2015-04-07, 06:38:41
Why can't you even grudgingly accept that Eisenhour was correct and at a stroke be honest for a change!   ???
Ike said a lot in his farewell address, most of which I presume you've never heard or read...in its entirety!

His concerns about the "military/industrial complex" were well-placed; as were those about the government finance of, e.g., scientific research... But that's not what you mean, is it?

As I said elsewhere, your bile is akin to Dobbin's blinders: You only see straight ahead, and then none too well. What so spooked you?
Lend/Lease? :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-04-07, 19:16:33
Bile? You lot are so frightfully emotionally when charged with double standards. You looked that up about Eisenhower and thus allow yourself to avoid the hypocrisy charge! Nice try laddie but people outside the controlled country see things better than those befuddled by years of being brained! You DO need a new revolution.  8)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2015-04-07, 19:48:28
Nice try laddie but people outside the controlled country see things better than those befuddled by years of being brained! You DO need a new revolution.

You jumping on the boat with Smileyfaze means we can at least call it a draw. Constitutional structure makes that unnecessary.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2015-04-08, 03:44:32
And there's always the possibility of a constitutional convention... :) The states can convene it, without congress's say-so!

(You'll note, Howie, that your country -whichever you think it is, the U.K. or Scotland- do not have a procedure in place to match that.)
You looked that up about Eisenhower and thus allow yourself to avoid the hypocrisy charge!
I looked it up to spare you an unexpected and onerous use of your "little gray cells"...
The mere fact that you'd believe a (mostly failed) Canadian novelist (...that means he writes fiction, you know? :) ) rather than eminent historians throughout the Western world tells something -- about you.
Go back to playing with your train simulations, sir! Fantasy and nostalgia are your milieu. Be comfortable there: Because you will, if you press your silly opinions, be humiliated...
(Well, you would be, had you the integrity or intelligence necessary.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2015-04-08, 09:13:31

Nice try laddie but people outside the controlled country see things better than those befuddled by years of being brained! You DO need a new revolution.

You jumping on the boat with Smileyfaze means we can at least call it a draw. Constitutional structure makes that unnecessary.


Bite yer Tennessean tongue fella!! ...... that lowlifed, lily-livered, Putin lovin' black hearted Scot couldn't & wouldn't be worthy of licking the bilge on any boat I'd serve on!

I don't think Revolution is called for at all.....only a prescribed & valid last resort option against an out of control tyrannical government.

BHO might be ever so close, but he ain't no George William Frederick ........ yet.   (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/cheerskj4.gif)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2015-04-08, 11:31:05
Local elections were held yesterday. I could claim to be a hipster since I voted for people you probably never heard of, but I won't make that claim.

In Chicago, Rahm Emmanuel holds on to the mayor's office for another term, beating out Chuy Garcia. So-- it's still the Rahmulan Empire for the next four years.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2015-04-08, 11:35:43
The Howie forgets that his his Scots gave up their freedom (...they thought to regain it, since their North Sea oil might finance independence; and then thought better!) and accepted their role as minor children of the English family of nations.
As is usually the case in such circumstances, squabbling ensued; but not much came of it. Perhaps they will grow up, eventually.
Myself, I doubt it. But I could be wrong: There may be adults willing and able to take charge there -- if they aren't required to appease the child-like populace and its silly pretensions.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2015-04-08, 14:54:01
that lowlifed, lily-livered, Putin lovin' black hearted Scot couldn't & wouldn't be worthy of licking the bilge on any boat I'd serve on!


I stand corrected. :P
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2015-04-09, 01:59:59
An' don't fergit it.  (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/Watching%20You.gif)    (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BigGrin02.gif)  (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/tongue22.gif)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-04-09, 06:28:05
Oh I wouldn't want to be on your terrorist boat. The bilge is not just below but weighs the craft down. Other countries have grown up but your is taking a heck of a long time. By the time your country does grow up it may be bankrupt.That would be good news for the world so keep going.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-04-09, 09:07:30
Oh I wouldn't want to be on your terrorist boat. The bilge is not just below but weighs the craft down. Other countries have grown up but your is taking a heck of a long time. By the time your country does grow up it may be bankrupt.That would be good news for the world so keep going.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fsmileyfaze.tk%2Fslides%2Fbeatdeadhorse.gif&hash=fa27f3f58eb1da318a1301a63d6bbc20" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://smileyfaze.tk/slides/beatdeadhorse.gif)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2015-04-09, 12:02:18

Oh I wouldn't want to be on your terrorist boat. The bilge is not just below but weighs the craft down. Other countries have grown up but your is taking a heck of a long time. By the time your country does grow up it may be bankrupt.That would be good news for the world so keep going.


RJH-- you might want to look up just what the bilge is. It doesn't weigh the boat down---- ballast does that. Ballast may be placed in the bilge for stability. There is a difference.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-04-09, 13:15:53
RJH-- you might want to look up just what the bilge is. It doesn't weigh the boat down---- ballast does that. Ballast may be placed in the bilge for stability. There is a difference.

Michael, you must have something better to do than reopen that can. Just call him a Catholic and be done with it.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fsmileyfaze.tk%2Fslides%2Fcan-of-worms.gif&hash=dd9e70584771d0729abb7a1217707f97" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://smileyfaze.tk/slides/can-of-worms.gif)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2015-04-10, 06:59:50
Understanding Americans

Is spying on people evil?
What is considered to be the most precious treasure of a free citizen in a free world, the NSA must avoid to spy on? Selfies of our dicks (or snatches)?

A funny video with John Oliver and Edward Snowden about government surveillance and American perception:
   


Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-04-10, 13:33:38
A funny video with John Oliver and Edward Snowden about government surveillance and American perception:

I saw that video recently. Oliver is funny and perceptive. Snowden is just along for the ride. I watch Oliver's show, Last Week Tonight with John Oliver, on HBO weekly. Very interesting.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: tt92 on 2015-04-10, 19:35:46
"The uploader has not made this video available in your country"
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-04-11, 00:09:25
Still a convoluted bit of dancing dear Chicagoan.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2015-04-11, 06:14:58

"The uploader has not made this video available in your country"
That's odd, the Oliver uploader lets in Sweden.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: tt92 on 2015-04-11, 06:25:33
It's a bit confusing. The other Oliver pieces all play and this particular piece played a few days ago.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-04-11, 07:18:47
They allow it in Belgium too. In fact it's been one of my YouTube subscriptions since the beginning. Maybe some channel licensed the show in Australia?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2015-04-11, 07:37:46
If all other Oliver pieces play and even this one played a few days ago then probably it was taken out on Australian demand.
Somebody probably wasn't very amused about it. It's the only feasible explanation that comes to my mind.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-04-11, 07:54:16
Somebody probably wasn't very amused about it. It's the only feasible explanation that comes to my mind.

I can't tell if you're joking or not. :P
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-04-15, 13:29:49

Somebody probably wasn't very amused about it. It's the only feasible explanation that comes to my mind.

I can't tell if you're joking or not. :P
He's a German. Of course he's a joker.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimages4.fanpop.com%2Fimage%2Fphotos%2F23600000%2FThe-Joker-the-joker-23625639-600-450.jpg&hash=d3ca851276d25f9d0b928c6e04274e85" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/23600000/The-Joker-the-joker-23625639-600-450.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2015-05-10, 20:53:21
I start to see the attraction in holding military exercises outside the US, the natives there being less insane.

What was fake on the Internet this week: Game of 72, beard poop and Jade Helm 15 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2015/05/08/what-was-fake-on-the-internet-this-week-game-of-72-beard-poop-and-jade-helm-15/?tid=sm_fb)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2015-07-09, 19:41:31
According to Mr. Obama the USA is speeding up the training of ISIL ( Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant aka ISIS or Islamic State) forces.


Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-07-18, 21:54:22
Well the US has a good history of backing terrorists and such regimes when it suits.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-07-19, 09:19:10
More news from The Donald at http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/19/us/politics/trump-belittles-mccains-war-record.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/19/us/politics/trump-belittles-mccains-war-record.html?_r=0).

Sez Trump: "Quit you like men: be strong".
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2015-07-19, 12:33:22

More news from The Donald at http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/19/us/politics/trump-belittles-mccains-war-record.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/19/us/politics/trump-belittles-mccains-war-record.html?_r=0).

Sez Trump: "Quit you like men: be strong".


Donald Trump should shut his #@%^&^$ mouth. That's impossible, I know, but still he should do that.

I heard about Trump trashing McCain, so I got curious. What did the illustrious Donald do during the war?

Oh---- he got deferments. He got a high draft-lottery number so he wouldn't be called--- he pretty much stayed out of uniform entirely during the time he was eligible.

Now, I have little use for McCain because of other issues. But, his war record is an honest one, and if people think he's a war hero he at least has credentials for that. Donald does not. All "The Donald" has is a big bazoo of a mouth that says the most remarkably stupid things. In this case, it would be hard for him to say anything more stupid.

Full disclosure: I turned 18 the year the draft ended. Never called, never volunteered, would have been 4f if I had because the physical would have failed me. So I have the same credentials "The Donald" does in that regard.

The link: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/donald-trumps-vietnam-draft-records-secret-documents-deferments/story?id=13492639 (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/donald-trumps-vietnam-draft-records-secret-documents-deferments/story?id=13492639)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Macallan on 2015-07-19, 17:46:42

Donald Trump should shut his #@%^&^$ mouth. That's impossible, I know, but still he should do that.

I think he might be a deep cover Hillary supporter :right:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2015-07-20, 19:31:25
"The Donald" should thank whatever he worships that this is not 200 years ago.

Back then, he couldn't say what he said about McCain without the strong possibility that he would have to back his words on the "field of honor".

I have a suspicion that if it came to a duel between Trump and McCain, Trump wouldn't win.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2015-07-20, 21:27:55
I am not a fan of McCain's politics... (McCain-Feingold in 2002 was a travesty!) But his "political" connections during his Nam service, which would have secured cushy duties had he wanted them, went un-used: He repeatedly asked for and got the most dangerous assignments. In short: He was a warrior.
Trump -on the other hand- was a wimp, someone who aspired to become a malingerer, at best.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-07-21, 03:07:41
Have already stated my opinion on McCain never mind the Vietnam matter. He would have been a disaster as President. Trump is another one who would be a disaster pal too. Mind you as it is the corporates who really run the ex-colonies he is flinging his hat in!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2015-07-21, 23:08:57

Have already stated my opinion on McCain never mind the Vietnam matter. He would have been a disaster as President. Trump is another one who would be a disaster pal too. Mind you as it is the corporates who really run the ex-colonies he is flinging his hat in!


Sounds like you have a lot of opinions.  That's good, that's one of the freedoms our 1st Amendment to the United States Constitution protects & our 2nd. Amendment defends.

Now, we already know who you don't think would be fit to be President of our United States, so on a serious note RJ, who do you think would...and why?

They don't have to be presently running RJ, or a member of any particular political party, but in your pwecious opinion, who do you think would be fit to do the job of the United States President?   Who, if you had a right to, who would you personally nominate for the position, & why?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-07-22, 01:44:14
Well Smiley, I do have to say to be fair that I am not aware of anyone who immediately comes to mind and not in a disparaging way - but I do wish there was. A large country with much influence positive or negative needs a very principled leader and sometimes it is easy to think of leaders in yesteryear who were statesmen? I am not avoding your genuine curiosity but so far with a whole range no-one seems to stand out. As I say wish there was.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2015-07-22, 06:45:09
Your nation repeatedly rejected Winston Churchill -- including after WW II! Of course you have no inkling... :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2015-07-22, 19:26:53

Your nation repeatedly rejected Winston Churchill -- including after WW II! Of course you have no inkling... :)


To be fair, Winston Churchill made some blunders during WW 1 that would give any man pause when considering him for high office. The Dardanelles campaign was a classic throwing away of men and ships to accomplish--- a defeat.

It may be that this tragic mistake was necessary though. Churchill was a great leader during WW II, and it's quite possible that without the bitter experience of the Dardanelles campaign he would have been a blunderer in WW II.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-07-24, 00:25:52
You make it sound like a mammoth and  deep anti-Churchill thing. In hard practice he firstly was totally correct in his warnings about Nazi Germany and a potential war. Secondly he lost the General election in 1945 but came out on top again at a good age again as Prime Minister. He apart from being Knighted was accorded an impressive State funeral Oakdale. And as we are far better at ceremonial parades than you lot a fine tribute to the man.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2015-07-24, 00:36:21
He apart from being Knighted was accorded an impressive State funeral Oakdale.
Yes, your lot is much better at parades and medals and titles...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2015-07-24, 20:23:04
Former Chilean military officers charged in 1973 murder of singer Víctor Jara (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/23/chile-military-officers-victor-jara-killing)
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.guim.co.uk%2Fimg%2Fmedia%2Fc2e2ffa340c62ddaca6428e68ce834e0544d8d4d%2F0_496_1734_1041%2Fmaster%2F1734.jpg%3Fw%3D700%26amp%3Bq%3D85%26amp%3Bauto%3Dformat%26amp%3Bsharp%3D10%26amp%3Bs%3D732bffc3e18a384ab6aaeb0468dcefc6&hash=7a6d8ab01bd87107f09209976847b235" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/c2e2ffa340c62ddaca6428e68ce834e0544d8d4d/0_496_1734_1041/master/1734.jpg?w=700&q=85&auto=format&sharp=10&s=732bffc3e18a384ab6aaeb0468dcefc6)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-07-25, 06:54:42
There's an article here about what Trump was up to in his early 20s.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/07/20/what-donald-trump-was-up-to-while-john-mccain-was-suffering-as-a-prisoner-of-war/
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-07-25, 22:27:15
What's Going on in the Americas?

Did I already said that the American continent is drifting away from Europe?
That's the only good thing I can see happen there. Soon they will meet our Chinese friends face to face. That will be funny to watch. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2015-07-25, 23:24:58

What's Going on in the Americas?

Did I already said that the American continent is drifting away from Europe?
That's the only good thing I can see happen there. Soon they will meet our Chinese friends face to face. That will be funny to watch. :)


One theory I've heard is that it already happened---- millenia before Europeans ever stumbled across the place. The "Native Americans" had to come from somewhere--- and the theory I read is that they came by way of land-bridge from the area now known as Siberia, crossing the present Bering Sea to Alaska, then down into the rest of the continent.

There's a story of Chinese coming here since then too--- by boat, early adventurers probably looking to make a few quick yen. Finding the earlier people already here, they don't seem to have made much claim of "discovering" the place since it was already discovered.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-07-26, 09:23:40
One theory I've heard is that it already happened---- millenia before Europeans ever stumbled across the place. The "Native Americans" had to come from somewhere--- and the theory I read is that they came by way of land-bridge from the area now known as Siberia, crossing the present Bering Sea to Alaska, then down into the rest of the continent.

Yes... that's what it's said but necessarily small groups of humans were enough to populate both North and South America, always down until Tierra del Fuego, originating thousands and thousands of different "native" populations?

They had to reproduce fast as rabbits considering that homo sapiens is no older than an hundred fifty thousand years old.
Reproducing and never stop walking.

Sometimes I think anthropologists suffers from some form of delirium.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2015-07-31, 21:52:41
Jimmy Carter: The U.S. Is an "Oligarchy With Unlimited Political Bribery" (https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/)
Quote
HARTMANN: Our Supreme Court has now said, "unlimited money in politics." It seems like a violation of principles of democracy. ... Your thoughts on that?

CARTER: It violates the essence of what made America a great country in its political system. Now it's just an oligarchy, with unlimited political bribery being the essence of getting the nominations for president or to elect the president. And the same thing applies to governors and U.S. senators and congress members. So now we've just seen a complete subversion of our political system as a payoff to major contributors, who want and expect and sometimes get favors for themselves after the election's over. ... The incumbents, Democrats and Republicans, look upon this unlimited money as a great benefit to themselves. Somebody's who's already in Congress has a lot more to sell to an avid contributor than somebody who's just a challenger.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2015-08-01, 10:23:45

Jimmy Carter: The U.S. Is an "Oligarchy With Unlimited Political Bribery" (https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarchy-unlimited-political-bribery/)

The statement is true but somehow funny to hear it from Jimmy Carter. At his time as president it wasn't much different, neither was it at the time of his predecessors.

Quote
The primary responsability of government is "to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority."
Constitutional Convention 26. Juni 1787 - James Madison


Quote
The idea of democracy is one of the "necessary illusions" which the ruling elite has to produce in order to secure the stability of the present status
Reinhold Niebuhr 1892-1971


Guided 'democracy':
Quote
Opinion management is cheaper than violence, bribery or other possible control techniques.
- Harold D. Lasswell (1930). Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences


Quote
The effective operation of a democratic political system usually require some measure of apathy and noninvolment on the part of some individuals and groups.
- Report of the Trilateral Commission, 1975


Western democracy as a matter of fact is an oligarchy. E.g. USA:
Quote
Truman had been able to govern the country with the cooperation of a relatively small number of Wall Street layers and bankers.
Samuel Huntington (1975). The Crisis of democracy


Quote
A democratic society once established, destroys a free economy.
Milton Friedman, 1990


Quote
The USA is reigned by 200 families and we want good contacts to them.
Arndt Oetker - CEO of the Atlantic-Bridge / Berliner Zeitung, 17.4.2002


Quote
Opinions of the average American appear to have only a minuscule, near-zero, statistically non- significant impact upon policy.
Policymaking is dominated by powerful business organizations and a small number of afluent Americans.
70% of the population on the lower revenue and estate spectrum have absolutely no leverage on political decisions.
- Gilens & Page (2014) Testing Theories of American Politics

---
If some of the quotes have a strange wording, it's because I've translated them from German. I'm still working on my English. ;)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-08-02, 15:29:00
If some of the quotes have a strange wording, it's because I've translated them from German. I'm still working on my English.

Beats the scheisse out of my three semesters of German.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-08-02, 19:15:17
Isn't it telling us something that the more China is rising to the day it financially overtakes America that land of the fee and home of the brave is becoming more testy towards China. Big mistake.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2015-08-03, 10:27:17
Robot never made it out of Philadelphia, Hitchhiking Robot Lasts Just Two Weeks in US Because Humans Are Terrible (http://paleofuture.gizmodo.com/hitchhiking-robot-lasts-just-two-weeks-in-us-because-hu-1721544551)
Quote
The goal of the hitchhiking trip was to see how humans would interact with hitchBOT. And apparently the answer was "not well." HitchBOT has been around the world, including trips across the entirety of Canada and Germany without major incident. But America is clearly a hard land for our robot brothers and sisters.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.kinja-img.com%2Fgawker-media%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fs--s1lkrNDd--%2Fc_fit%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_80%2Cw_636%2F1368230179968369040.jpg&hash=9131ac3f2bb09f621893d3551192da55" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--s1lkrNDd--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/1368230179968369040.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-08-03, 16:44:15
Send the little bastard to Scotland. We don't want no stinking robots.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2015-08-03, 19:35:46
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimages%2Fphotos%2F3300000%2FBender-futurama-3365346-1024-768.jpg&hash=284bf6f107ce4500f215b6a7496d71bc" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/3300000/Bender-futurama-3365346-1024-768.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2015-08-03, 20:23:54

The statement is true but somehow funny to hear it from Jimmy Carter. At his time as president it wasn't much different, neither was it at the time of his predecessors.


Richard Nixon was pretty much middle class far from ruling classes.

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-08-03, 20:50:52

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimages%2Fphotos%2F3300000%2FBender-futurama-3365346-1024-768.jpg&hash=284bf6f107ce4500f215b6a7496d71bc" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/3300000/Bender-futurama-3365346-1024-768.jpg)

That's what robots dream of.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-08-03, 23:07:28
Richard Nixon was pretty much middle class far from ruling classes.

I'd never seen that documentary. Thanks.

What a pitiful character.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2015-08-03, 23:58:43


(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimages%2Fphotos%2F3300000%2FBender-futurama-3365346-1024-768.jpg&hash=284bf6f107ce4500f215b6a7496d71bc" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/3300000/Bender-futurama-3365346-1024-768.jpg)

That's what robots dream of.


As Bender would say... "Kill all humans."
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-08-04, 00:10:19
No, he would say...
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F0.media.dorkly.cvcdn.com%2F51%2F90%2F6a556ed831947f0a1120b03cff30c20c.jpg&hash=f3554aa22a7b1689187bb0021d3a9fdf" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://0.media.dorkly.cvcdn.com/51/90/6a556ed831947f0a1120b03cff30c20c.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-08-04, 14:34:15
An excellent documentary on President Nixon and very balanced.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-08-04, 16:10:22
That's what I thought.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2015-08-27, 05:31:52
From the US totalitarian past:

"Definitely slanted against the United States" Ray Bradbury's FBI file (https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2015/aug/24/ray-bradbury-fbi-file/)

Quote
"The general aim of these science fiction writers is to frighten the people into a state of paralysis or psychological incompetence bordering on hysteria"

Science fiction - a commie plot to undermine American values? It's an idea that the FBI was strongly considering during the height of the Cold War, as their lengthy investigation into acclaimed author Ray Bradbury shows.

The files released to former MuckRocker Inkoo Kang document the decade the Bureau spent trying to determine if Bradbury was, if not a card-carrying Communist, as least a sympathetic "fellow traveler."
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2015-08-27, 06:45:03

There's an article here about what Trump was up to in his early 20s.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/07/20/what-donald-trump-was-up-to-while-john-mccain-was-suffering-as-a-prisoner-of-war/

The brouhaha over Trump's idiotic statement overshadows the idiocy of McCain's involvement in that tragic and meaningless war. And don't forget who McCain chose to be his running mate.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimg2.timeinc.net%2Fpeople%2Fi%2F2008%2Fnews%2F080908%2Fmccain_palin.jpg&hash=4b3e6c898317b82c8edb00d24b62d615" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2008/news/080908/mccain_palin.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-08-30, 00:35:20
Haha...brilliant touch jimbro!  :yes:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2015-09-13, 19:59:12
For those who might find it of interest: http://www.hottamalefest.com/ (http://www.hottamalefest.com/)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-09-14, 01:54:40
 :whistle: ??
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2015-09-14, 02:31:07

:whistle: ??

Surely a Glaswegian of the world like yourself has heard of Hot Tamales?
It's the annual Hot Tamale Festival in Greenville, Mississippi.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-09-14, 19:00:46
Some local "do" in the poor hinterlands of the ex-colonies?!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2015-09-14, 19:19:04

Some local "do" in the poor hinterlands of the ex-colonies?!


Maybe y'all oughta get on over there and partake? You just might find the local ex-colonists (which, incidentally, Mississippi never was a British colony, just so's y'know) are more highly "cultured" than you are.

Downside of going there: Those tamales will likely go through your un-prepared Scottish system like Sherman going through Atlanta. Except that Sherman did less damage. You really DO need some time to get used to that kind of food.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2015-09-14, 23:30:20


Some local "do" in the poor hinterlands of the ex-colonies?!


Maybe y'all oughta get on over there and partake? You just might find the local ex-colonists (which, incidentally, Mississippi never was a British colony, just so's y'know) are more highly "cultured" than you are.

Downside of going there: Those tamales will likely go through your un-prepared Scottish system like Sherman going through Atlanta. Except that Sherman did less damage. You really DO need some time to get used to that kind of food.

Damn right sir! We were a French colony, and damn proud of it!



Excellent description as well, mjm.  :cheers:
(Though the mention of that should-have-been-war-criminal was also noted, but in proper context is.....barely admissable.  ;) )
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-09-16, 01:54:08
Imagine someone boasting about being a French colony. The way that country messed two world wars not surprised that that State is as is.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-09-26, 08:49:59
The Pope rules the place. Total apotheosis, full subordination. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2015-09-26, 19:09:07

The Pope rules the place. Total apotheosis, full subordination. :)


That's odd. It's not so that anybody would notice, is it?

Last time I checked, the official RC position on abortion and on gay marriage (just to bring up two examples) is that you can't be Roman Catholic and practice either of them. If the Pope did indeed rule the place, you'd expect these things would disappear. Nope. A woman can get an abortion even in the third trimester--- and even her husband can't stop her. And, recently they've made it "Law of the Land" that men can marry men, women can marry women, and transgenders (another probable abomination according to church teachings) can marry----geezzzz, they don't really know what they are so flip a coin and take a wild guess.

Soooooooo......the Pope rules. When do we start seeing the results? (Never, as it happens. Separation of church and state you know. If the Pope starts trying to mess with everybody else's applecarts, it'll go to court sure as the sun comes up in the East---and we'll find in no uncertain terms that the church doesn't rule the state.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-09-26, 20:55:31
Another term being used in the US for describing Pope Francis visit, epic.
Get used, mjm. :)

By the way, did you like the Fiat 500 Francis used at the land of V8?  :lol:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: mjmsprt40 on 2015-09-26, 21:10:03
Popes come and they also go. Pope John Paul II visited here several years back--- visited Chicago as it happens, a short section of 42nd Street on the South Side is named in his honor. Changes he made in the way we live our daily lives----- Hmmmm........ Not much. After the Pope leaves and the press settles down from their fawning, life will get back to what it has been.

I don't expect the visit of Pope Francis to be significantly different. Atheists won't suddenly find God in massive numbers, Protestants won't swear off protestantism big-time to become Roman Catholic, there won't be priests and nuns on every street corner administering the affairs of state and so on.... Pope Francis will make a few speeches, eat with homeless people, smile for the cameras--- and then board a plane for home. The US will continue "business as usual" government, and a week after the Pope's visit it will be hard to tell that he was ever here.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-09-26, 22:16:29
Pope Francis will make a few speeches, eat with homeless people, smile for the cameras--- and then board a plane for home. The US will continue "business as usual" government, and a week after the Pope's visit it will be hard to tell that he was ever here.

It seems that your "business as usual" government received him as they receive no any other world leader...

Many things happens beyond what you can observe in your daily life. Don't mistake a Pope with some president or prime minister, he's much more closer to a government of influence than being someone having to pass local laws or being hostage of political parties.

That's the nature of real power.

(By the way, I hope that, as an Argentinean, he doesn't forget to visit las Malvinas. That would be magnificent. :) )

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-09-27, 01:30:45
Much in what mjsmsprt40 says there about the status quo.

Many years ago a Boys' Brigade camp we decided to have a brains trust session on a wet Saturday night in the main marquee. Four boys between 12 and 17 volunteered to form the panel which all the other lads could thrwo questions at. Surprisingly there came a question about religion and then Popes (virtually all were Prots as we were attached to a church like most unitsare). Suddenly a wee lad of 13 stood up in the audience and told veryone else in a vey broad Glasgow accent to shut up. Everyone turned round and he waved a hand in the air "There have been hunners o' Popes but we only need wan King Billy"(the nickname of William of Orange) who created the Glorious Revolution into place and saved the country from Roman attacks ensuring rights and Protestantism. Everyone laughed like mad.

Was amusing but when one looks at history those countries that had large Protestant or majority such grouping were the most progressive. When one also looks at what was known as the Papal States before Italy was united it was a totalitarian place with little freedoms and a repressive police State mentality.  Being so autocratic as a denomination it has always been easy for the Church of Rome to be shown as a great pal of dictatorships. I do not deny them their rights in that tradition whilst at the same time look at all that Princes of the Church stuff, wanting to be a Church and a Sovereign State, heavy symbolism, routines, power system that is as far from the Man from Galilee as one can get!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2015-09-27, 04:06:57
@RJ: It's amazing, how long Europeans can prolong their tiffs... :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-09-27, 10:40:05
countries that had large Protestant or majority such grouping were the most progressive.

Progressive in materialism, progressive in annihilation of human dignity, progressive in robot-like behaviour, progressive in financial serfdom, progressive in art destruction and vandalism, progressive in homosexual sodomy, progressive in killing babies, progressive in general barbarism, progressive in industrial pollution, progressive in egotism...

Uau!!, let me have a breath of fresh air, can't stand so much progressivism.   :faint:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2015-09-28, 03:48:20
I'd argue with "progressive in industrial pollution"... No other regime or economy (of capitalism -- or any other "system") has done so much to correct their errors. But the rest is "spot-on" as the Brits say!
I still wonder, Belfrager, what you think the Pope's authority extends to... And how you'd justify the extensions you seem to want, on the basis of Scripture.
(Or don't you pay attention to them anymore? :) )

The Pope's authority in the United States is negligible. Parts -small, and mostly inconsequential, parts of the rest of the world may seem more pliable, more amenable to such venerable authority: But -still- I think you're mistaken. (With the slight exception of what we've come to call "Radical Muslims"...) Catholics have divorced, fornicated and aborted their young apace with the Prots and the non-believers...
Was there a Pope who said that was OK? :( So: Why didn't the Papal Authority have a noticeable effect?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2015-09-28, 17:23:17

The Pope rules the place. Total apotheosis, full subordination. :)


By "the place" I assume you mean the USA, and you may have a point. The heads of the two greatest countries in the world, President Xi of China and Prime Minister Modi of India, visited the country with nary a notice. Francis showed up and mayhem. That he riled the lunatic fringe of the Republican party into a fit made Catholicism edible for the Democrat-affiliated, with what they call liberals and progressives spreading the message.

Fortunately we have Progressive Secular Humanist (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2015/09/pope-fatigue-celebrating-a-morally-bankrupt-institution-is-wrong/) man to rally the progressive secular humanist troops.
Quote
Pope Crush Blues: Liberals swoon, pundits pontificate, and the media marvels as Pope Francis puts a happy face on the morally bankrupt institution that is the Catholic Church.
The current celebration of Pope Francis in America has been a depressing exercise in media spin. Focusing on the persona of the pope, the ugly truth that is the Catholic Church is whitewashed and sanitized so as to not interrupt the "feel good" moment.
Pope Francis is a marvelous showman - a genius at public relations and media manipulation who has successfully hustled the media, and the public at large. He says nice things like all animals go to heaven; he chastises creationists and other science deniers by noting that God is not a magician; and in a good natured gesture he asks atheists for good vibrations.
Recently Francis has seduced many progressives and liberals with calls to action on climate change, immigration, and poverty. In so doing he has alienated many conservatives, who find themselves in the odd position of rejecting the pope's progressive politics.

Quote
Pope Francis is a man who holds views that should be repugnant to all reasonable people. Yet many reasonable people, including progressives, refuse to acknowledge these hard truths about Francis. The denial, and the excuse making, is depressing.
Bottom line: Pope Francis may be likable, even lovable, but that is no excuse to celebrate the leader of a repulsive and morally bankrupt institution like the Catholic Church.


I guess I am at least secular and humanist, and definitely not very Catholic, but I enjoy a good conundrum as much as the next trouble-maker. It was a mission well accomplished, and a good move for turning Roman Catholicism into the reasonable face of Christianity, and making the atheist left and bible-thumping right look slightly silly.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-09-28, 21:19:08
Would say that Oakdale does have a point about the Pope and the aithority issue. By that I mean that the things that RC's get involved with along with others in numbers and which contradict what the Pope stands for is in the face. Along with that you see the faces of those who came along to support him acting like infantiles or children whilst ignoring the contradictions. There was a time over there when that Church did have an awful influence and unfortunately not always proper or principled but with greater freedom these days and the long corruption (centuries actually) has wreaked havoc including being forced to pay damages all had their effect. A while ago I referred to a cardinal in America who was suspended but when John Paul that wee neb came into office uplifted it!

It will not do the country any hard if that Church and the way run there has been lessened a bit and will be for the general good.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-09-28, 22:30:02
@jax
I respect your ideas and the right you have to express it, I find the quotes you chose to attack the Pope vile, sordid and low.
If that is "progressive secular humanism" I consider it moral excrement.
But of course, for any action there's always a reaction. The dogs bark and the caravan passes...

Nice try for creating content, but useless. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-09-29, 02:29:31
Although Belfrager and I are from opposite corners of the proverbial religious room (!) I do respect his right to what he is. In addition I think he is right on the humanist side so-called "progressives." We get that lot of know-it-alls  here too and they are act as if a mass movement sniping at Christianity. Indeed they are oft far more arrogant than the religious corner they sneer at.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2015-09-30, 18:51:51

@jax
I respect your ideas and the right you have to express it, I find the quotes you chose to attack the Pope vile, sordid and low.
If that is "progressive secular humanism" I consider it moral excrement.
But of course, for any action there's always a reaction. The dogs bark and the caravan passes...

Nice try for creating content, but useless. :)
I got the feeling you really don't get American politics, from fringe to shining fringe.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2015-09-30, 19:47:40
A kind of roundabout and maybe not harmfully intended claim on Belfrager. Our outpost on the Inerian Peninsular is intelligent but apart from thatand in general, American politics is in essence a hypocritical joke never mind kindergarten mind level.  :(
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-09-30, 22:45:00
I got the feeling you really don't get American politics

Thanks for the eulogy. :)
I would be very concerned if I ever "get it".

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2015-10-17, 13:24:07
Makeup in the US

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pewforum.org%2Ffiles%2F2014%2F12%2FPF_15.01.05__ReligionCongress_political_makeup640px.png&hash=4b85b07be0d518411ee1bded360bd0b8" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.pewforum.org/files/2014/12/PF_15.01.05__ReligionCongress_political_makeup640px.png)

Faith on the Hill (http://www.pewforum.org/2015/01/05/faith-on-the-hill/)
Quote from: PEW
Of the 301 Republicans in the new Congress, only one - freshman Rep. Lee Zeldin of New York's 1st District - is not a Christian. Zeldin, who is Jewish, will have far less seniority than the one Jewish Republican to serve in the 113th Congress, former House Majority Leader Eric Cantor, R-Va., who was defeated in his district's GOP primary.

Fully two-thirds of the Republicans in the 114th Congress (202 members, or 67%) are Protestant, about a quarter are Catholic (81, or 27%), and 5% are Mormon (14).

Democrats in the new Congress are somewhat more religiously diverse than Republicans, though not as diverse as the population as a whole. Of the 234 Democrats in the 114th Congress, 104 (44%) are Protestant, 83 (35%) are Catholic, 27 (12%) are Jewish, two (1%) are Mormon, two are Buddhist, two are Muslim, one is Hindu and one does not identify with a particular religion.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-04-18, 10:41:34
It seems that it's not only Germany where our guided media (aka free press) has to struggle with its credibility.

Quote
Just 6 percent of people say they have a lot of confidence in the media, putting the news industry about equal to Congress and well below the public's view of other institutions.
source (http://bigstory.ap.org/article/35c595900e0a4ffd99fbdc48a336a6d8/poll-vast-majority-americans-dont-trust-news-media)

"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."
- Abraham Lincoln

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-04-18, 12:35:55
"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."
- Abraham Lincoln
"Oh, hush!" - John Wilkes Booth
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-04-18, 22:23:36
A kind of roundabout and maybe not harmfully intended claim on Belfrager. Our outpost on the Inerian Peninsular is intelligent but apart from thatand in general, American politics is in essence a hypocritical joke never mind kindergarten mind level.  :(
(Insert joke about Cameron and a Swine here)

:)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2016-04-19, 16:26:18
(Insert joke about Cameron and a Swine here)
No joke, but how about a Brexit clock?
(https://media.giphy.com/media/EzXCukouGuWK4/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-04-20, 17:51:18
At least we can vote on staying ir leaving and if you tried that over the pond there would be a civil war......
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-04-20, 22:55:53
At least we can vote on staying ir leaving and if you tried that over the pond there would be a civil war......
When Scotland leaves, your financial system will have it's own, wee, civil war, old timer. :D
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Jimbro3738 on 2016-04-21, 14:56:38
I'm sure Brexit will go down in flames. I'll be on pins and needles!
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.laborarts.org%2Fexhibits%2Filgwu%2Fculture%2Fpins%2Fimages%2Findexing.jpg&hash=14e74900557449374134be1e46d5d719" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.laborarts.org/exhibits/ilgwu/culture/pins/images/indexing.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-04-21, 22:48:24
Like the usual ex-colonsist on this forum you follow the traditionof always ignoring what you cannot answer or are guilty of Southern infant. You know that a referendum would not be allowed anywhere in nutjobland if there was a strong calle from a State.  I am a Bexit fan but I think that jimbro is probably correct in that we will see the Referendum won by the In lot. As for that Obama character coming over here and sticking his neb into our business I would chase the fool. Americans would go bananas and being told what to do on sovereignty. The EU is a mess and been in a financial one for about 6 years and no sign of improving. And it is corrupt as well as not being democratic (a bit like the US)and the books have not been cleared by auditors for 18 years. Disgraceful.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-04-21, 23:38:55
That's your democracy for you! :) You're welcome to it...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-04-22, 00:00:25
Like the usual ex-colonsist on this forum you follow the traditionof always ignoring what you cannot answer or are guilty of Southern infant. You know that a referendum would not be allowed anywhere in nutjobland if there was a strong calle from a State.  I am a Bexit fan but I think that jimbro is probably correct in that we will see the Referendum won by the In lot. As for that Obama character coming over here and sticking his neb into our business I would chase the fool. Americans would go bananas and being told what to do on sovereignty. The EU is a mess and been in a financial one for about 6 years and no sign of improving. And it is corrupt as well as not being democratic (a bit like the US)and the books have not been cleared by auditors for 18 years. Disgraceful.
Have a listen at some good Southern music, Mr. Howie. :)

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-04-22, 17:28:11
Makes a pleasant wee break there colonel and have just nodded up to the wall to smile at General Lee........ 8)  ;)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2016-05-07, 18:29:28
Whatsapp in Brasil (http://techcrunch.com/2016/05/03/mark-zuckerberg-celebrates-the-end-of-whatsapp-ban-in-brazil/)? Previous time: When WhatsApp came down (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/tech-news/whatsapp-comes-down-how-brazilians-are-coping-without-their-social-mediafixes/article27799710/)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-05-10, 23:07:49
I hope that Trump wins.
It would clarify many things.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-05-11, 02:14:12
I hope that Trump wins.
It would clarify many things.
You should be careful what you wish for.

All of those excellent healthcare systems nearly all of Europe has? They'd be decimated under a President Trump.
He has stated repeatedly that regarding European defense, he wants Europe to foot most of the bill for NATO. That would take away a lot of funds for keeping up such magnificent healthcare systems.......

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-11, 07:37:48
Not really, Dawg.
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_67655.htm

In terms of direct funding of NATO, the US supplies 22 percent of the cost.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nato.int%2Fnato_static_fl2014%2Fassets%2Fpictures%2Fstock_2015%2F20151019_1510_NATO_common_funded_budgets_2016-2017.jpg&hash=0bf717a92de4e725b918ee873aa09668" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pictures/stock_2015/20151019_1510_NATO_common_funded_budgets_2016-2017.jpg)

Each nation's contribution is calculated based on GDP, so of course the US would contribute the most. However, America's share isn't as large as people think it is.

However, the US represents 73 of the total defense expenditure of the alliance because most member states don't spend the required two percent of GDP on defense, while the US spends more than double that. So the answer would be for America to reduce military expense and Europe to increase their's. I would like to say dissolve NATO entirely as a coldwar relic. but with a resurgent Russia and increased instability in the Middle East, that doesn't seem possible.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-05-11, 08:57:44
I would like to say dissolve NATO entirely as a coldwar relic. but with a resurgent Russia and increased instability in the Middle East, that doesn't seem possible.
I posted the link to where Ike said that if NATO  was needed for more than ten years, it was useless...
60+ years later, it persists. To what point?

The "resurgent" Russia doesn't threaten U.S. national interests -- beyond their gamesmanship in the Middle East. And, since we really don't need Mid East oil anymore, why shouldn't we let them deal with the "mess"? (At least, that's what Trump seems to be saying...)
Oh, and BTW: When wasn't there instability in the Middle East? :)
Good luck, reinstalling the Ottoman Empire...

But I'd like us still to remain a steadfast ally of Israel.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-05-11, 09:51:54
All of those excellent healthcare systems nearly all of Europe has? They'd be decimated under a President Trump.
He has stated repeatedly that regarding European defense, he wants Europe to foot most of the bill for NATO. That would take away a lot of funds for keeping up such magnificent healthcare systems.......
Did I miss a sarcasm tag?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-05-11, 11:16:16
All of those excellent healthcare systems nearly all of Europe has? They'd be decimated under a President Trump.
He has stated repeatedly that regarding European defense, he wants Europe to foot most of the bill for NATO.
That's not Trump's own idea. It's something he picked up from the present administration.
Obama urged Europe several times lately to increase its military spending.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So the USA is spending money for Europe's defense? Why? Out of altruism? Out of philanthropy? No better use for money? Just for fun? After all there must be a reason...
During the past decade NATO became a military arm of US geostrategic expansion. So it serves US intersts to begin with. Should Europeans pay more for it?
The belief that NATO is for Europe's defense is a myth. Sable rattling at Russia's borders doesn't make Europe more secure. It might boost though revenues of the military complex...
Quote
Russia poses an existential threat to the United States.
- Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2016-05-11, 12:53:29
This is Eurasia, not the Americas.

The tanks coming in from the Russian steppes rolling towards Berlin and Paris is not a real scenario, and hasn't been for 25 years. Actually it hasn't been for 50 years, since the mid-60's when the Soviet Union lost parity in the Cold War, but back then it could happen out of desperation.

Militarily the goals are more limited. The EUropeans (and the Americans) want a rich, free and happy Ukraine as a productive new member, or at least solidly in the European zone of influence, while Putin want a poor hobbled country shackled to Kreml. The same goes for Belarus, Moldova, Georgia and the rest. Russia poses an actual military threat to the Baltic States, a theoretical one to Scandinavia.

The US is in Europe not to protect against a Russian invasion, but to increase reach, in mutual American and European interest. The idea of a pivot to Asia was to shift from the has-beens to the will-bes. Unfortunately Europe&MENA has not been as easy to extract the Americans out of as Obama has hoped.

A European-American divorce would be bad news for Ukraine and other former and future parts of the Russian Empire, possibly Russia itself. Among European neighbours in North Africa and the Middle-East, Europe and America would be less effective, but they would still be there.

Unless the US actually withdrew from the region, a divorce wouldn't be cheaper for the US, nor better for Europe, than marriage. If the US did withdraw, it would shift the balance of power to whoever the victor of Iran, Saudi-Arabia, Turkey and Egypt would be. Europe would have to take a greater interest in North Africa than they have to date. History from Algeria to Libya isn't too encouraging.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2016-05-11, 13:06:29
Or one take on this: The United States is riding Europe's superpower coattails (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-united-states-is-riding-europes-superpower-coattails/2016/04/14/90b3dd98-0193-11e6-9203-7b8670959b88_story.html)

Quote
President Obama and Donald Trump rarely agree on foreign policy. Yet they share one core belief: Our closest allies in Europe are exploiting U.S. military might.
Trump says NATO should be renegotiated: It is "obsolete (http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/274175-trump-doubles-down-on-doubts-about-obsolete-nato)" and "unfair . . . to the United States . . . because we pay a disproportionate share (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/03/30/trumps-claim-that-the-u-s-pays-the-lions-share-for-nato/)."
Obama has criticized Trump's stance. Yet for years the president has been conducting his own NATO renegotiation -- including demanding European leadership in the Libyan operation and telling Prime Minister David Cameron that if Britain wants to maintain the Anglo-American "special relationship (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/barack-obama-and-david-cameron-the-us-and-britain-still-enjoy-special-relationship/2012/03/12/gIQABH1G8R_story.html)," it must increase defense spending to the recommended NATO minimum of 2 percent of gross domestic product. His explanation? "Free riders aggravate me (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/10/world/middleeast/obama-criticizes-the-free-riders-among-americas-allies.html?_r=0)."
But Trump and Obama are both wrong. Although more foreign policy spending is always welcome, Europe already assumes more than its fair share of the regional security burden. It invests not only in its military but also in crucial geo-economic and institutional instruments that the United States does not possess -- but needs. In this respect, the United States freerides on European power.

Consider the facts.

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-05-11, 15:29:02
All of those excellent healthcare systems nearly all of Europe has? They'd be decimated under a President Trump.
He has stated repeatedly that regarding European defense, he wants Europe to foot most of the bill for NATO. That would take away a lot of funds for keeping up such magnificent healthcare systems.......
Did I miss a sarcasm tag?
Nope, just was hoping to spur discussion further. I knew that would receive several immediate responses. :)

@krake : I'd say more or less to keep the military-industrial complex contingent in the US happy.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2016-05-11, 16:18:13
BBC: Brazil Senate debates impeachment trial for Rousseff (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-36263678)

Vox: The past day in Brazil has been a roller coaster. Here's why. (http://www.vox.com/2016/5/10/11640724/brazil-impeachment-backsies)

Here's the past 24 hours of politics in Brazil:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-05-12, 01:17:00
NATO should be simply done away with. The original excuse for it was the old Eastern Block which is long history so now new pointless excuses are conjured up to keep it.  Britain I know allocates the 2% ratio but America has to dish out a massive sum and Europe is not going to fall in line so the creation of false pssibilities is used to justify the military corporate industry of you-knw-where. Just think what could be done internally with that big bill.

And OakdaleFTL can you give a proper basis for wanting to stick with Israel on everything even allowing for Jewish control of finance and media in your country??
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-05-12, 06:37:13
Or one take on this: The United States is riding Europe's superpower coattails (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-united-states-is-riding-europes-superpower-coattails/2016/04/14/90b3dd98-0193-11e6-9203-7b8670959b88_story.html)
I like it and agree with most of it. But...

Quote
When Americans think about global influence, they tend to calculate only military power. Yet in world politics, nonmilitary instruments are often more effective. And Europe is the world's preeminent civilian superpower.
I obviously agree that Europe's power is primarily in matters more important than military nonsense, but surely that is not how Americans think, Trump's words without much meaning notwithstanding?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-05-12, 13:45:47
Unfortunately it is NOT just the military it is big business and in that area as well as the military it thinks it rides supreme on some wonky idea. Most people over there are basically decent people however have been very cleverly brained and those that really run and influence things have misused the millions of decent people and usurping the  system. Europe is nothing much to boast of either as it happens. It is in a financial mess and hasn't had the books cleared for 20 years. If you tried running your business like that you would be finished. The Euro has messed up for years and no sign of any improvement.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-05-16, 18:59:03
No doubt worldwide media will have a fun time with this: a Delta town, Cleveland, MS, ordered to desegregate it's middle and high schools.  (http://wreg.com/2016/05/16/u-s-district-court-orders-cleveland-mississippi-schools-to-desegregate/)

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-05-17, 03:21:28
Can you detail a little more on that matter/

There was something on our news about a State that decided that public toilets should be restricted to people who were physically of one sex or another and anyone who felt they were mentally something else should get lost but the Federal government has stepped in.  There was a school here which felt that should be the norm so if you were a boy but felt like a girl (uhh) you should use the girls toilets and so on. One mother who had s son at primary school felt that he should be treated as a girl as he too felt like a lassie. Seems that at 5 at home he wears pinafores, etc. Damn daft the whole thing and the world is getting worse. Anyway it gives me something to mutter about until dear Southern laddie you tell us more.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-05-17, 11:01:09
(When I see a boy that feels like a girl, I treat him like... a boy that feels like a girl. :left: )
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-05-17, 16:05:44
Can you detail a little more on that matter/

There was something on our news about a State that decided that public toilets should be restricted to people who were physically of one sex or another and anyone who felt they were mentally something else should get lost but the Federal government has stepped in.  There was a school here which felt that should be the norm so if you were a boy but felt like a girl (uhh) you should use the girls toilets and so on. One mother who had s son at primary school felt that he should be treated as a girl as he too felt like a lassie. Seems that at 5 at home he wears pinafores, etc. Damn daft the whole thing and the world is getting worse. Anyway it gives me something to mutter about until dear Southern laddie you tell us more.
Cleveland has two high schools/Jr. Highs for a town of 12,000. While not entirely unheard of throughout the state, considering the population, apparently upon further investigation, the Dept' of Justice found that Cleveland High School/Jr. High both are historically and remains historically, White. The figures reveal that CHS makeup is 60% White and 40% Black.

East Side High School/Jr. High, on the other hand (the other high school and jr. high) are both historically Black, with the makeup being 99% Black for both. EHS is apparently known as "the school across the railroad tracks".

The DOJ order calls for the immediate closure of both EHS and EJH and for both to be consolidated with Cleveland High School and Jr. High.

So while it is a sensationalist headline, it is not fully it's 1960's counterparts, as CHS has been integrated since 1972 (the last year for schools to comply with the Brown v Board of Education desegregation ruling). More or less, it's just tidying up some aspects of it all.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-05-17, 16:21:18
I miss a historically Red High School.  :eyes:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-05-18, 02:19:31
Ah, right colonel.

Personally I have not taken anything bad into that explanation and different traditions can become like that betwixt the two schools.  When I was a boy of 11 like everyone in the last term of Primary School (5-11) you used to sit a test and if you got an S1, S2, S3 you went to a Senior Secondary School (11 - 17) and ranged up to 6th form, languages, etc. If you got a J1, J2, J3 you went to a Junior Secondary and a plain education with no languages, etc and had to leave at 15. It was all scrapped and Secondary schools all became Comprehensive and that was that. Anyway I was also one of 6 pupils who attended a special class in the headmaster's room on Fridays to sit a test eventually for a private school  and no payment. I passed it but preferred to be with my other exam pupils going to the local Senior Secondary as O had passed that one. What that indicates in a very simple and harmless way is a local thing and tradition in it's own way. Thanks you for the info.

On the other matter of toilets i think it is frankly a load of balderdash that if say some boy feels feminine he should be allowed into say a girls toilet, locker room, showers that is damn nonsense. All this nonsense about how a person thinks they are is stupid. If he still has a male tackle then he goes into a damn male toilet. Girls are entitled to privacy and modesty as a damn right.  If I was a female and it happened I would phone to get a damn ambulance for the git.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-19, 02:19:31
Guess what though? Many people of been using the restroom and even locker rooms this whole time without even knowing it. Here you have Republicans inventing an issue, again. Yeah, those moronic GOP laws will have men with male genitalia into women's rest rooms and this fact doesn't even occur the Republican law makers pandering to fearful little Christian fundies who seem to afraid of their own shadow (little and figurative.) It would also have some very and feminine women in the men's washroom.

These are not simply males and females that "feel like" the opposite sex. A friend at work tried to set me up with a transwomen a few months ago. I would have never known if I wasn't told. 
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-05-20, 02:33:24
Here you have Republicans inventing an issue,
Republicans and Democrats wrote laws before the Obama administration said "boys will be girls and girls will be boys, if they say so" and -oh, BTW- the constitution has been interpreted to mean that there is no right to privacy...
Not! (I'm sure you agree with this "reasoning".
I'm, likewise, sure Roe v. Wade will be overturned post-haste...!

Sang, you just want what you want. Nobody else matters, to you!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2016-05-20, 19:43:11
It continues

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kuHu0EcRlA
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-05-20, 21:37:29
"Forgive them, Father..."
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-21, 03:44:02
Oakdalre, spare us. There was no issue at all on how goes into which restroom.
BTW- the constitution has been interpreted to mean that there is no right to privacy...
Eh? You do you restroom stalls have doors on the them, right? But speaking of privacy, how do the Republicans intend to enforce that  transwomen with vaginas go into the men's room and transmen with penises go into the women's restroom? The answer is they don't because all these laws are a republican invention to pander to the religious right.  How this plays out will similar to the gay marriage issue, including Republicans doing more to cause transpeople to be in the "wrong" restroom then LGBT activists do. (Maybe LGBT groups have moles inside the GOP, AFA etc to cause them to invent laws like this because the end result of such stupidity can only be defeat?)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-05-21, 04:49:33
Of course, only the "feelings" of the mentally deranged need to be protected... What could go wrong? (http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/Man-Beat-9-Year-Old-Girl-In-Jacksonville-Best-Buy-Bathroom-Police-220944391.html)
I know this is a personal question, but I'll ask it anyway: At what age was your first homosexual experience? And how old was your "playmate"?
I don't expect you to answer... I'm sorry I thought to ask. (If you had a brain, you'd know why I did. If you are honest with yourself, you'd understand...) But you seem to find any and all forms of perversity worthy of protection; whereas any and all forms of commonly accepted morality are reprehensible - to you.

Do you think the "letter" sent out by a bureaucrat referencing Title IX, Title VII and the VAWA is rational? Really??
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-21, 08:03:47
Of course, only the "feelings" of the mentally deranged need to be protected... What could go wrong? (http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/Man-Beat-9-Year-Old-Girl-In-Jacksonville-Best-Buy-Bathroom-Police-220944391.html)
Explaining why we meed laws like this to protect the feelings of the religious right. The man in that link, of course, was cisgender man who didn't wear women's clothes and that sick fuck deserves what he gets.
Do you think the "letter" sent out by a bureaucrat referencing Title IX, Title VII and the VAWA is rational? Really??
Don't know, haven't seen it not being as political as you seem to think I am. But what I do are the people these laws are aimed against. I'm also pretty sure I know why the "family" associations needs a new issue to get solicit donations and the GOP politicians are playing along for votes and money. I'm disappointed in you if you didn't at least see that possibility.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-21, 08:14:02
Maybe the future is just an area with individual washrooms regardless. A whole lot of trans just the unisex individual washrooms if it's available anyway. They just want to go in, do what they have to do and leave like everybody else and don't need laws that have the effect inciting fear and bigotry. Did you know bashing of LGBT people in Russia increased after that country passed the "gay propaganda" laws? Anti-LGBT laws are irresponsible and lead to violence.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-05-23, 05:45:01
It's all about "grooming," Sang. Only now it's society that's being "groomed"...
(Of course, that's been going on since the '50s, dontcha know? Perhaps earlier?)

But maybe the "plan" is just to confuse everybody... :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-05-23, 20:53:23
No the queer lobby gets too over the damn top. There are separate toilets for good reason and if you have physically male bits then it is their toilet you go to. Why should women have to feel embarrassed because one minority think they are special and in turn ignore others - like females for example? Queers are covered like the rest of the normals by law but act as if their 2 or 3% were the specials. Handy making a passing reference to rights issues in Russia  from a country across the pond that does not always do well with the rights of it's own people for so-called security reasons and so on. Personally I do not have any time for queerdom but wish them no persecution or violence.  I cannot stand thins like Communism but don't want to ban it or physically attack the stance. And even in Russia there are queer clubs in cities but they do have strict laws on the matter of children and good luck to them on that issue. It is almost pointless today being in any passing majority as you do not count and I still hold my personal statement from a year or two ago saying 'tyranny of the minorities.'
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: SmileyFaze on 2016-05-25, 01:38:42
Well, there are people that believe.....I'm definitely not one of the....people that believe that over 99% of Americans rights are less important than the .003% of the American population that Obama's errant directive is aimed at.

Imagine having to explain to a little 6 year old girl why her being forcibly molested in a Unisex Toilet is a necessary evil, because little prepubescent boys, who like to dress up as girls, need to feel all warm & cuddly, & not being able to pee & poo in the little girls room makes them feel so, so bad. 

I'm sure she would say, well ok, it hurts so bad what they did, but because it's for the better good, it won't hurt so much anymore.

Riiiiiiight! I think not.

BTW......over 80% of the prepubescent boys who think someone cruelly assigned them the wrong gender, when they pass the age of puberty, over 80% of those cherubs don't feel that way anymore, & are happy being boys as birth intended them to be.

Placating to their confused fantasies & childish decisions, like Obama wants them to be, isn't the solution.

Not having a little girls room to pee & poo in, or dresses to prance around in, won't crush them irreversibly.  Love, caring, & proper parental & adult guidance can see them through their gender confusion &  'troubled times'.

It's about time clear thinking adults stand up to the "FAG BRIGADE"  & the LGBT suckwits, & not let them use America's children as their political football!



Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-25, 10:25:35
No the queer lobby gets too over the damn top.
The "queer lobby" didn't even start this. Just at random the religious lobby decided transpeople were a threat in the washroom, even as they just went to the unisex one. We disagreed over the term "homophobia" before, but a lot of people seem genuinely afraid of queers.
Imagine having to explain to a little 6 year old girl why her being forcibly molested in a Unisex Toilet
The unisex rooms are for one person or a parent assisting a very small child. Get it? One person or that parent enters and locks the door.

Yes, I know you mean multiple person restrooms. But if you people will calm down and take a breath, you'll see the problem has already been solved with a row of individual washrooms and it doesn't matter who goes in. Many establishments already have effectively have this, even if the sign says "men" or "Women" because the restrooms only hold one person anyway. The person enters and locks the door.  Oh, some perv might be hiding in one because that sign has been taken down? As if a man couldn't easily slip in their regardless of the sign now.

Remember in the gun control thread when you said criminals don't obey "gun-free" zone signs. What makes you think a rapist obeys the "Women" sign and doesn't take his "gun" in there anyway? I saw a number of horror stories of men sexually assaulting women and children in the restroom. The problem is they went dressed as men and did it, no cross dressing required. "Criminals don't obey the law," Remember? It's not that hard to slip in on a business's off-peak hours and wait.

This flips the question on its head. By not embracing the unisex, single washrooms are you the ones endangering women and children?  The LGBT don't want anyone harmed and many of us have been victims of violence ourselves, so we do understand safety. 64 percent of transgendered people experience assault in their lifetimes. And yet people think the LGBT haven't already considered the safety issue?

Now the other side of the safety issue. For the second time in one post, we didn't start this. The "family" groups invented this whole issue to get more donations, since the donations must flow. However, it's preposterous for a transwomen with a vagina to be put a risk by being forced to used the mens room and be at risk. A pre-operative transexual is also at risk in the men's room. So instead of focusing on the negatives, let's work on the solution. Help us increase everyone's public safety
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-25, 10:38:30
Yes, I know you mean multiple person restrooms. But if you people will calm down and take a breath, you'll see the problem has already been solved with a row of individual washrooms and it doesn't matter who goes in.
No. The problem will be solved, if everybody begins building washrooms the way you suggest, but there's no reason why that should be the only way. Other than you maybe legislate it this way.

And queer lobby is a harsh reality in Europe. Very harsh reality that infiltrates toilets, clothing rooms, schools and kindergartens, etc. Not to mention same-sex marriage legislation. Surely you understand you need a lobby to push for specific legislation in your favour.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-05-25, 11:08:00
No, ersi, he doesn't understand that his fantasies are what he requires everyone else to accommodate.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-05-25, 11:35:26
Everybody has it's share of suffering in life. But there are categories of people that think their kind of suffering is special and so they deserve special protection. And damn the rest.
Oh... you mean extreme suffering[1]? Well, I suppose there are already laws about it, that apply to everybody equally.
e. g. violence
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-25, 12:06:44
The problem will be solved, if everybody begins building washrooms the way you suggest, but there's no reason why that should be the only way.
At what point did I say it was the only way? What's your idea to keep everyone safe? At no point did I say to legislate it like this, either. Who's legislating?  Oh yes, the people that need to invent a moral panic to keep their donations coming. Transpeople tend to use the single occupancy room regardless, if it's available. If not, you on't even know you're in the restroom with one. Another reality, the successful retailers such as Wal-Mart and Target remodel their stores regularly. In the remodel, just do the restrooms as single occupancy. Done. No legislation required. Maybe Wal-Mart decides to keep their restrooms as is, with one single occupancy;  maybe Target decides to do all their's all single occupancy. Fine. No problem, except the ones you invent.

About the LGBT being "harsh." The religious lobby got legislation passed amendments against us, we fought back and now they're crying like any other defeated bully. Don't like that same sex-same marriage is legal in all 50 states? Guess what? If the religious lobby didn't pass constitutional amendments against it for no apparent reason other than to line their pockets, it never would happened or would have taken another generation or two at least. In the US, much of what's done against the LGBT is/was illegal on constitutional grounds  (equal protection under the law.) But same-sex couples getting married neither picks the religious pockets or breaks their nose. It merely hurts their feelings. They just need to lick their wounds and get over themselves. Maybe they should stand in the crying corner and let those feelings out. But just because they're feelings are hurt, it doesn't mean for them to try to bully us or that we have to stand for it. Need a tissue?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-25, 12:13:09
Everybody has it's share of suffering in life. But there are categories of people that think their kind of suffering is special and so they deserve special protection. And damn the rest.
Clearly you mean the religious. The LGBT weren't suffering over the restrooms. But now the religious are. Poor little things with feelings made of glass :( I wish there as something I could do for them, but they decided I was a threat and the enemy so they won't accept my help. Lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink....
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-25, 15:07:55
At what point did I say it was the only way? What's your idea to keep everyone safe? At no point did I say to legislate it like this, either. Who's legislating?
In American context, consies are trying to legislate in panic to pre-empt the kind of onslaught of LGBTQ "rights" as seen in Europe. As seen in Europe, it's a real onslaught. I agree with you on one point - this thing is going its course to the bitter end, no matter how anyone tries to react or avert it. This "progressive" thing would not progress if concepts like marriage, man, woman, husband, wife, family, mother, father, son, and daughter still had a meaning, but unfortunately they have all lost meaning in Western civilisation.

In European context, the progressives have already legislated their thing.

About the LGBT being "harsh." The religious lobby got legislation passed amendments against us, we fought back and now they're crying like any other defeated bully. Don't like that same sex-same marriage is legal in all 50 states?
American context is boring and irrelevant. The little bit which is not boring is stupid and shallow and gets boring quickly.

You are blind to the real nature of LGBT movement. You can see their true nature in action in Europe where they already won sweepingly. Here they are shameless and ruthless. Anybody even remotely questioning them, e.g. calling them a "foreign trend that feels wrong" gets instantly persecuted. Here they are, without absolutely any pedagogical qualification or research, considered authoritative source for teaching materials for kindergarten children on all topics.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-25, 18:17:16
Of course this whole thing is stupid. Out of nowhere, transgenders using the restroom they feel most comfortable in is a major threat.  Since the dawn of gender reassignment surgery in 1931, they've been doing this without being a threat to anyone. Now suddenly women and children are in danger? Yup, this ranks among the stupidest things ever I've heard of.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-05-25, 18:49:06
What I find amusing is that appeals to tradition so often fall completely flat, even if you ignore whether or not such an appeal holds any merit at all. How it's always been at best equals how it was in their youth, and is more often akin to some kind of oddly distorted vision of the 1950s.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-05-25, 21:37:48
It seems the only thing going in the (Northern) Americas is where transgenders (?) should piss.
Excellent, maybe now we can start talking about Southern America, a much more interesting place with so much more going on.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-26, 02:59:11
What I find amusing is that appeals to tradition so often fall completely flat, even if you ignore whether or not such an appeal holds any merit at all.
But you of course don't ignore the merit and you acknowledge it, right? Or, you can demonstrate how there is no merit, so that "appeal to tradition" indeed falls flat.

What demonstrably falls flat is the appeal to "right to marriage", the invented concept of "marriage equality" etc. that imply that marriage is a right or that marriage thus far was somehow unequal. It's easily demonstrated that marriage is not a right. Namely, it takes two to have a marriage. If nobody wants to marry you, you will not get married, ever.

This is different from example right to basic education. You may not want to go to school, but it's made a duty regardless if you like it or not. Every kid gets assigned to a school and a teacher. It's ensured that nobody misses this right. Not so with marriage. The state doesn't assign everybody a spouse. Why? Because there's no such thing as right to marriage. Similarly, also "marriage equality" (an American concept, not European, AFAIK) is a delusion.

Now let's hear how "appeal to tradition" falls flat.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-05-26, 08:00:13
But you of course don't ignore the merit and you acknowledge it, right? Or, you can demonstrate how there is no merit, so that "appeal to tradition" indeed falls flat.
An appeal to tradition is correct if the justifications for said tradition were correct to start with and if those justifications still apply to the present. But I was saying that most supposed appeals to tradition do not appeal to anything but pure fantasy.

Now let's hear how "appeal to tradition" falls flat.
It's not an appeal to tradition, but it is rather odd. Equal rights to marriage, during marriage and to dissolve marriage are words from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Was marriage somehow unequal? Well, that depends on the country. Given that in some countries a spouse can or could be literally property, or how people might've previously only been allowed to marry within their class or race, I think the answer is obvious.

But going back to your simple proof that a right isn't a right, that falls flat because it's a simple case of conflicting rights. One person's right to get married doesn't override another person's right not to. Or to put it another way, you have the right to enter into wedlock only with the free, full, and informed consent of all spouses.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-26, 10:01:29
An appeal to tradition is correct if the justifications for said tradition were correct to start with...
This applies to any and all appeals and justifications.

...and if those justifications still apply to the present.
Time is not on the side of any truth of principle. Also, popular opinion is not on the side of any truth of principle. My appeal is not to tradition, but to truth of principle, law of nature, and precision of definition.

Equal rights to marriage, during marriage and to dissolve marriage are words from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Interesting. I didn't know that UDHR mentioned marriage. However, reading UDHR it looks like its articles are not far out the way the demands of queer lobby and gay rightists are.

Quote from: UDHR, http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/
Article 16.

(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
The "equal rights" here applies specifically to "men and women". Meaning, marriage is understood here properly as that between opposite sexes.

Further, my argument is absolutely independent of any actual legislation of rights. Legislation can get screwed up, as we all know. I showed how "right to marry" does not have the same nature as for example "right to education" (Article 26), but, if it be understood as a right at all, it's not universal by any stretch of the imagination. UDHR specifies that marriage applies to (a) men and women who are (b) full age. Why such delimitations, what do you think? Are they merely some traditional ballast that should be discarded because the time has moved on and we should be over those barriers? Do they represent only false shame that is unbecoming to modern times?

Was marriage somehow unequal? Well, that depends on the country. Given that in some countries a spouse can or could be literally property, or how people might've previously only been allowed to marry within their class or race, I think the answer is obvious.
This is not the aspect that the concept of "marriage equality" is meant to deal with by those who push the concept. The difference is as follows.

As understood in UDHR, the "equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution" mean that men and women should have equal right to initiate marriage and divorce. For LGBTQ campaigners, "marriage equality" means that any random "sexual orientation" can initiate it to start whatever "configuration" or "constellation of family" they want. Those latter are all novel concepts that stand no rational analysis. And I don't mean appeal to tradition, but rational analysis. Those innovations presuppose something equivalent to married bachelors or square circles, which is nonsense.

But going back to your simple proof that a right isn't a right, that falls flat because it's a simple case of conflicting rights.
I didn't argue that it's a right that is not a right. I argued that it's not the kind of right that can be applied universally whether the subject likes it or not. Education can be (and is being) pushed on kids regardless if they want it. You cannot do the same with marriage, because that would be forced or arranged marriage which is a strict no-no in your world.

One person's right to get married doesn't override another person's right not to.
Is there a right to refuse education? No, there is not. So, let's be precise about the nature of the specific right here. If marriage were a universal right like education, then there should be no way to refuse it. However, since UDHR mentions divorce in the same breath as it mentions marriage ("equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution"), it's evident that marriage and education are not the same kind of right.

The right in this case is to be free in one's decision to marry or to divorce or, implicitly, to abstain from marriage. This is the complete sense of "right to marry" in UDHR. Reductive reading of "right to marry" (with emphasis on "marry", excluding divorce) violates the intention of UDHR. 

And even if the nature of "right to marry" were conflated with "right to education", this does not get around the fact how marriage is implicitly defined in UDHR, namely as between man and woman. I say there are good reasons as per natural law and truth of principle why marriage is (and must be) defined this way. When marriage is understood any other way, the concept of marriage becomes void and any associated right also becomes void - due to definitional clash of natural concepts, not due to imaginary nostalgia for tradition.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-05-26, 11:04:19
This applies to any and all appeals and justifications.
Naturally, but an appeal to tradition tries to sweep such concerns under the rug.

Why such delimitations, what do you think? Are they merely some traditional ballast that should be discarded because the time has moved on and we should be over those barriers? Do they represent only false shame that is unbecoming to modern times?
Here you somewhat engage in what I mentioned above. Traditionally one entered adulthood between 13 and 16 years (cf. Bar Mitzvah and Bat Mitzvah). You have already swept aside that ballast. In any case, I already said free and informed consent.

I didn't argue that it's a right that is not a right. I argued that it's not the kind of right that can be applied universally whether the subject likes it or not.
Just a quick reminder, you wrote this: "It's easily demonstrated that marriage is not a right."

When marriage is understood any other way, the concept of marriage becomes void and any associated right also becomes void - due to definitional clash of natural concepts, not due to imaginary nostalgia for tradition.
The concept of rights associated with marriage is void either way. It's a personal union between two people. All of the state-imposed nonsense is just that. And, incidentally, this is the traditional view of marriage. It was sufficient to speak the right words in the presence of two witnesses. The Catholic Church butted in on the process and that's how we acquired our current mess.

NB This does not imply a case for gay marriage, although iirc the Romans claimed the Gauls were too tolerant of it. In any event, the anti-gay lobby didn't really get started until Late Antiquity. Tradition is a buffet with no need to fantasize.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-26, 11:52:59
Here you somewhat engage in what I mentioned above. Traditionally one entered adulthood between 13 and 16 years (cf. Bar Mitzvah and Bat Mitzvah). You have already swept aside that ballast. In any case, I already said free and informed consent.
Are you saying that you reject the "full age" delimitation in UDHR?

I didn't argue that it's a right that is not a right. I argued that it's not the kind of right that can be applied universally whether the subject likes it or not.
Just a quick reminder, you wrote this: "It's easily demonstrated that marriage is not a right."
Correct. But you said that I provided a "proof that a right isn't a right". I would sincerely prefer to not call marriage a right at all and, when examined closely, UDHR indeed does not call marriage a right. Rather, "right to marry" includes, in UDHR context, right to divorce at the same time. I can live with that, for the sake of argument, even though my full opinion is that marriage is a sacred privilege, to be treated with utmost reverence without ever losing sight of its purpose.

The concept of rights associated with marriage is void either way. It's a personal union between two people. All of the state-imposed nonsense is just that.
So, again, you actually reject the UDHR definitions? Because, in UDHR, marriage is not reductive the way you present it here. It's not between two people. It's between man and woman. And "equal rights" in the relevant article are obviously meant to emphasise women's equal rights to marry and divorce as freely as men do.

And all human rights in UDHR are obviously meant for state legislatures to formulate and enforce. Under the law of the jungle you would not have right to marry or any other right.

And, incidentally, this is the traditional view of marriage. It was sufficient to speak the right words in the presence of two witnesses. The Catholic Church butted in on the process and that's how we acquired our current mess.
Well, prior to the existence of the Catholic Church there were other religious and state institutions that fulfilled the same role. Traditionally, marriage has always been a social event of some degree of broader institutional interest, never a private matter between two people.

NB This does not imply a case for gay marriage, ...
That's correct. But my stronger claim is that a case for gay marriage cannot be made at all, because gay marriage is a self-contradiction like square circle. Its only effect is to mock marriage and obviate it as a social event with meaningful content.

...although iirc the Romans claimed the Gauls were too tolerant of it.
Romans claimed that Gauls were too tolerant of gay marriage? Any source to this?

In any event, the anti-gay lobby didn't really get started until Late Antiquity.
Marriage was always understood as inapplicable to gays by definition. There was no gay marriage movement in Antiquity, late or otherwise, nor later in history, until very recently. As far as I know, "gay rights" even just a century ago only meant a modest request to be free from persecution, without any claim to right to marriage. Feel free to correct me on this point by providing an Antique Roman or Renaissance or any pre-WWII source that argues how gays have right to marry among themselves like heteros.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2016-05-26, 11:53:50
It seems the only thing going in the (Northern) Americas is where transgenders (?) should piss.
Excellent, maybe now we can start talking about Southern America, a much more interesting place with so much more going on.

I think what's going on in Southern America is as baffling as what's going on in Northern, but at least those things matter, maybe even to us in the Old World.

Of all things the US conservatives could be concerned about, and you would think there would be plenty, this is what they get all twisted around. Shouldn't they be worried about Jade Helm 15 or something? (I assume there are still serious and sane conservatives about, but they seem quite absent at the moment.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-05-26, 12:28:17
The Catholic Church butted in on the process and that's how we acquired our current mess.
The Mass not the mess.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-26, 17:31:06
Tradition is a buffet with no need to fantasize.
Yup,  here's an article when same-sex marriage was a Christian rite  (http://jdstone.org/cr/files/whensamesexmarriagewasachristianrite.html). So one appeal to tradition on the pro same-sex marriage side, as well. What was unnatural this whole time was trying to force gay men and lesbians to either remain celibate or push them into marriage with a member of the opposite, especially now that all the scientific evidence points future sex orientation being determined before birth.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-26, 18:09:53
Yup,  here's an article when same-sex marriage was a Christian rite  (http://jdstone.org/cr/files/whensamesexmarriagewasachristianrite.html).
It wasn't. This controversy started with Boswell. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelphopoiesis#.22Same-sex_union.22_or_.22brother-making.22.3F) Had it been a real thing, it would have been a notable issue during the Catholic-Orthodox schism and Reformation, but there's no trace of that. The Bible is against same-sex marriage, most clearly perhaps in 1. Cor 6:9-10.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-05-26, 19:19:14
I think what's going on in Southern America is as baffling as what's going on in Northern, ...
Like the putsch in Brazil for instance...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-05-26, 20:22:02
Are you saying that you reject the "full age" delimitation in UDHR?
That's mostly a definitional question of when one can give informed consent. You can split philosophical hairs about it, but for practical purposes adulthood ("full age") and marriage age can safely be regarded as the same thing. I would say that being able to give informed consent to enter into marriage with a prospective spouse is a necessary but not a sufficient condition of being an adult. As such, one can give informed consent to marry at some point in time before one becomes an adult.
So, again, you actually reject the UDHR definitions? Because, in UDHR, marriage is not reductive the way you present it here. It's not between two people. It's between man and woman. And "equal rights" in the relevant article are obviously meant to emphasise women's equal rights to marry and divorce as freely as men do.
I actually wrote people because I'm a humanist. I regard both men and women as People,[1] and consider the reverse to be the reductive approach. As a humanist I neither define People by nor reduce People to their genitals or race. But now that you've rubbed my nose in it, that must indeed logically include People of certain sexual persuasions.

Romans claimed that Gauls were too tolerant of gay marriage? Any source to this?
I meant relationships. I wouldn't know if and to what extent they could be classified as marriage.

Marriage was always understood as inapplicable to gays by definition. There was no gay marriage movement in Antiquity, late or otherwise, nor later in history, until very recently. As far as I know, "gay rights" even just a century ago only meant a modest request to be free from persecution, without any claim to right to marriage. Feel free to correct me on this point by providing an Antique Roman or Renaissance or any pre-WWII source that argues how gays have right to marry among themselves like heteros.
People entered into cohesive same-sex unions. You can either say that they're not marriage by definition or you can acknowledge that it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, much the same as our the present-day cohabitation agreements. As such it is certainly valid to ask why homosexuals care whether or not their relationship is officially called a marriage when it's the same in practice anyway, but it's equally valid to ask why you care so much if it is called a marriage. Excluding for a second forced child marriages, the most demeaning thing to marriage as a concept I can think of is stuff like religious people getting married pretty much just to have sex. A loving, dedicated same-sex couple seems to do more to restore my faith in the institution than to break it down.

Yup, here's an article when same-sex marriage was a Christian rite  (http://jdstone.org/cr/files/whensamesexmarriagewasachristianrite.html).
I remain highly skeptical. The Bible as well as early Christianity are in favor of polygamy -- only for the men, of course, because the Bible is deeply sexist. Monogamy was adapted within a century or two to become more respectable to pagan (Roman/Greek) culture. It's certainly possible that some same-sex unions were performed, but it doesn't make much sense logically. Limiting yourself to only one wife to abide by pagan law and culture is hardly the same as completely copying pagan law and culture including those icky same-sex unions. To be fair to the hypothesis, Christians completely failed at their project to replace the days of the week by the series of dies dominica, feria secunda, feria tertia, etc.[2]

The Bible is against same-sex marriage, most clearly perhaps in 1. Cor 6:9-10.
Wasn't Paul talking about pederasty? Not that this invalidates the general point, although I will point out that there were plenty of Christian sects other than those main two. Arianism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism) was a particularly important one.
Dutch and German have significantly better vocabulary in this regard than English and French.
I say completely, but actually they were successful in Portuguese if I'm not mistaken.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-05-26, 20:54:31
I say completely, but actually they were successful in Portuguese if I'm not mistaken.↵ (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=230.msg62054#ref2_0)
Yes, segunda feira, terça feira, quarta feira and so on.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-26, 21:48:29
People entered into cohesive same-sex unions. You can either say that they're not marriage by definition or you can acknowledge that it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, much the same as our the present-day cohabitation agreements.
I can grant that it quacks like a cohabitation agreement, but a cohabitation agreement is not marriage. Kids in love may run away from their parents and spend their life together thereafter, this by itself doesn't make them married.


A loving, dedicated same-sex couple seems to do more to restore my faith in the institution than to break it down.
Marriage is not just about love and dedication. The very assumption that all you need is love thoroughly demolished the institution in the 20th century.

The Bible as well as early Christianity are in favor of polygamy -- only for the men, of course, because the Bible is deeply sexist.
No. Admittedly, Bible describes polygamy as if common practice (which it was in every culture in Middle East, so call them all deeply sexist for fairness' sake), but it never praises it and there's absolutely no question what the ideal was. The ideal is presented in the creation story.

The Bible is against same-sex marriage, most clearly perhaps in 1. Cor 6:9-10.
Wasn't Paul talking about pederasty?
This is impossible, if Romans 1:27 is about the same thing. "And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another..." Clearly mutual and consensual, not one making use of another. Besides, the specific Greek word choice in 1. Cor 6:9-10 seems to refer back to Leviticus 20:13 as given in Septuagint. If so, then no.

Arianism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism) was a particularly important one.
What about them? Did they bless homosexual couples?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-05-27, 01:31:51
There was a reference on our news yesterday of a number of States taking legal action against Obama over gender issues re toilets, changing facilities, etc. There was a man on form the shirt lifters saying that they were being denied their rights of what they mentally thought. Duh. Well how far does this nonsense go and that women who make up roughly around the same number of men outnumber queers by massive numbers but hey they don't count. Modern liberalism has become a farce of a joke.  If you have a penis you are a man whether you want to be something else or not and if a vagina a woman. Surprise, surprise. Minorities do get rights but when they think automatically that they are almost divine and that others don't count then that is going too far.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-27, 03:08:59
It wasn't. This controversy started with Boswell. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelphopoiesis#.22Same-sex_union.22_or_.22brother-making.22.3F) Had it been a real thing, it would have been a notable issue during the Catholic-Orthodox schism and Reformation, but there's no trace of that.
Look at the dates. This predated the reformation.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-05-27, 04:14:38
Look at the dates. This predated the reformation.
You should look at the dates, Sang: Boswell's bad scholarship didn't come to light until the mid-1990s... :) And it was effectively dealt with.
Of course, you'll grasp at any straw...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-05-27, 07:47:18
This is impossible, if Romans 1:27 is about the same thing. "And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another..." Clearly mutual and consensual, not one making use of another. Besides, the specific Greek word choice in 1. Cor 6:9-10 seems to refer back to Leviticus 20:13 as given in Septuagint. If so, then no.
I don't have a proper critical copy of the New Testament at my disposal, for it interests me little compared to the Tanach, but be careful about drawing such inferences. To my knowledge the Septuagint is dated no earlier than the third century and it's not at all unthinkable that potential references are the other way around, whether on purpose or subconsciously. The footnote here (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+6%3A9-10&version=NABRE) does seem to talk about pederasty though.

No. Admittedly, Bible describes polygamy as if common practice (which it was in every culture in Middle East, so call them all deeply sexist for fairness' sake), but it never praises it and there's absolutely no question what the ideal was. The ideal is presented in the creation story.
The Bible explicitly regulates the practice, it was commonplace among the Jewish people, and it was equally common among early Christians. In my reading of the Bible, almost all of the great patriarchs that are held up as shining examples had multiple wives and not as one of their flaws (like pride). There's a quick overview here (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy_in_Christianity). And not just that. On top of all your wives, you can have sex slaves:

Quote from: Leviticus 25:44-46
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have--you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you. Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession. You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves.
Quote from: Numbers 31:15-18
And Moses said to them, "Have you spared all the women? Behold, these caused the sons of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, so the plague was among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.
Quote from: Deuteronomy 21:10-12
When you go out to battle against your enemies, and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take them away captive, and see among the captives a beautiful woman, and have a desire for her and would take her as a wife for yourself, then you shall bring her home to your house.


What about them? Did they bless homosexual couples?
The prior possibility may be less unfavorable after proper consideration than at first glance. Of course prior possibility is ultimately of little importance in the grand scheme of evidence.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-27, 09:54:13
@Frenzie

You are in a particularly blessed situation, because there's a Greek-Dutch interlinear NT online. Take this file (http://www.scripture4all.org/pdf_interlinear/gnt_nl.php?cs=e4f6b9ccf4968479f737d9734f3d7fdf&t=406763&b=1co&c=6) and locate the last word in verse 9. It's αρσενοκοιται - I trust you can read this. It's a noun.

Now let's go to Leviticus 20:13 in Septuagint (http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=3&page=20). There it says κοιμηθῇ μετά ἄρσενος which is a phrase with a verb, preposition and a noun.

The noun in 1. Cor is unique. It occurs only in that text in whole Greek literature. This is the reason why its meaning is contested. However, it's a regular compound formation consisting of the exact same roots as the phrase in Leviticus. If 1. Cor 6:9 is a direct reference to Lev 20:13, the meaning of the word cannot be challenged. But even if it's not a direct reference, there is no ambiguity about it.

In my reading of the Bible, almost all of the great patriarchs that are held up as shining examples had multiple wives...
Yes, the patriarchs are shining examples, but I never got the feeling that their polygamy was upheld as a shining example. Of course I grant that poygamy was not condemned either, just  like slavery was not condemned. Those were inevitable aspects in social order at that time and place.

At the same time, I don't think anyone can question the ideal example set by the creation story. In every religion I know, the human problem is seen as a fall from original grace and the solution is to reinstate it. Except maybe in Islam where every good man is promised a bordello of virgins (not directly in Koran though).

Edit: fixed the faulty link to NT.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-05-27, 12:48:20
You are in a particularly blessed situation, because there's a Greek-Dutch interlinear NT online. Take this file (http://www.scripture4all.org/pdf_interlinear/gnt_nl.php?cs=e4f6b9ccf4968479f737d9734f3d7fdf&t=406763&b=1co&c=6) and locate the last word in verse 9. It's αρσενοκοιται - I trust you can read this. It's a noun.
That's potentially an amazing resource, thank you for that. Do you have any indications as to its trustworthiness as a scholarly work? It's clear from the accompanying writings that it must be a work planned and executed by Protestants, but the site itself gives no indications that I can find.

It's αρσενοκοιται - I trust you can read this. It's a noun.
I can read the Greek alphabet as well as the next guy, but that doesn't change the fact that the word means nothing to me. :)

Yes, the patriarchs are shining examples, but I never got the feeling that their polygamy was upheld as a shining example. Of course I grant that poygamy was not condemned either, just  like slavery was not condemned. Those were inevitable aspects in social order at that time and place.
That's the thing though. The slaves are obviously there but barely mentioned, besides a few rules on how to treat them *ahem* right. I've always seen the overt inclusions as meaningful.

At the same time, I don't think anyone can question the ideal example set by the creation story. In every religion I know, the human problem is seen as a fall from original grace and the solution is to reinstate it. Except maybe in Islam where every good man is promised a bordello of virgins (not directly in Koran though).
I do question Augustine. I'm not convinced that the state of sublime ignorance constitutes an ideal, but perhaps that's just because I find it an utterly repulsive one. Besides, there are two Eves -- one out of dust and one out of a rib. :D
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-27, 13:27:28
Do you have any indications as to its trustworthiness as a scholarly work?
None. Except that on that spot I expected to find what I found. I have read Greek NT ad hoc here and there on the web when I needed it, and what I found now seems to be the same contents that I have found before.


It's clear from the accompanying writings that it must be a work planned and executed by Protestants, but the site itself gives no indications that I can find.
All Bible scholars are Christians or former Christians. Same with apologists and anti-apologists. There seems to be a conspiracy there.

It's αρσενοκοιται - I trust you can read this. It's a noun.
I can read the Greek alphabet as well as the next guy, but that doesn't change the fact that the word means nothing to me. :)
Here's the same argument all over again http://www.equip.org/article/is-arsenokoitai-really-that-mysterious/
This argument (not the website which I dug up just now randomly, but the philological incident) was first brought to my attention by Christian apologist and NT Greek scholar James White.

Yes, the patriarchs are shining examples, but I never got the feeling that their polygamy was upheld as a shining example. Of course I grant that poygamy was not condemned either, just  like slavery was not condemned. Those were inevitable aspects in social order at that time and place.
That's the thing though. The slaves are obviously there but barely mentioned, besides a few rules on how to treat them *ahem* right. I've always seen the overt inclusions as meaningful.
And how's that different from wives/concubines? Aren't they too barely mentioned?

I do question Augustine. I'm not convinced that the state of sublime ignorance constitutes an ideal, but perhaps that's just because I find it an utterly repulsive one. Besides, there are two Eves -- one out of dust and one out of a rib. :D
And Zohar says there was also a Lilith. I'm not qualified to question the manner of exegesis that is represented by Zohar. They are the experts.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2016-05-27, 15:18:15
https://youtu.be/oUoTTSZiwZ8
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-05-27, 18:35:54
And how's that different from wives/concubines? Aren't they too barely mentioned?
Less barely. The slave thing is easy to miss while the multiple wives thing isn't, even though I naively may not have been expecting either when I first read the Bible as a child. In any event, since your quibble seems to be specifically about the word support, let's just say that if the Bible doesn't implicitly support polygamy, at the very least it explicitly condones it.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-05-27, 21:03:17
Protestants discussing the Bible...  :faint:
Go read the Cathecism and spare yourself such ridiculous image of yours.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-05-28, 00:57:17
In Scotland prior the the Reformation the Roman Church tried to avoid people reading the Bible and in churches locked them in chains to the lecterns.  When the leaders of the Reformation who were 2 priets and the eventual leading one John knox the aim was to have a kirk and school in every parish and push education (something that did not happen before). In Ireland the peasantry were kept in subservience.

And hey over in Lisbon there is a Church of Scotland congregation and although a small proportion of the population around 50,000 Prots in the country. That was thanks to the consitutional monarchy arriving in the 1830's and guaranteed the right. So there you are Belfrager...a choice!  :up:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-05-28, 12:39:23
in churches locked them in chains to the lecterns.
So the protestants couldn't steal it. Instead, protestants destroyed all the images and art.
It became known some years later as the ISIS style.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-28, 13:39:44
Less barely. The slave thing is easy to miss while the multiple wives thing isn't, even though I naively may not have been expecting either when I first read the Bible as a child.
That be gigantic naivete.

In any event, since your quibble seems to be specifically about the word support, let's just say that if the Bible doesn't implicitly support polygamy, at the very least it explicitly condones it.
My quibble is not just about words. To the contrary, I find that gay rightists argument around the Bible is about words, a la "Homosexuality (the word) is not found in the Bible (and the verses that clearly are about it are not at all clear)". Or "The Bible condemns homosexuality, but that's old. Times have changed."

I have read the Bible from cover to cover, though not as a child, and not with any sense of naivete, but investigatively. Polygamy is clearly there, no question about it. However, it's there described as widespread, not praised as a holy right or God-ordained. It's not even stated that it's necessary.

This is slightly different from slavery. Not only is slavery thoroughly regulated in OT so that it is seen as normal and inevitable, also NT calls slaves to obedience, so it's safe to say that NT doesn't foresee abolition of slavery. Slavery was apparently meant to be a permanent social feature. And I'd argue that we never abolished slavery. We only renamed it to employment. Modern employers have less legal responsibility than ancient slave owners (or at best roughly comparable). This doesn't hurt much as long as there's a surplus of consumer goods (=waste) in society, but in crises (and wastefulness guarantees recurring and deepening crises) it's easily seen how vulnerable such a social order is.

The Bible is not about words. It's about meanings, about right and wrong, true and false, commendable and not. Those meanings are real and the world viewed through those meanings is the world viewed meaningfully. The makeup of the world has a hierarchy when viewed this way, degrees of good, degrees of truth and degrees of reality.

Marriage is a multifaceted concept with many features. Since this is so, it's possible to alter several features of it while preserving the core essence. Polygamy works like that. But "same-sex marriage" does away with the core essence and is therefore not marriage at all. You either perceive the core essence or you don't. The core essence is revealed in the creation story.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-28, 13:42:56
Church tried to avoid people reading the Bible and in churches locked them in chains to the lecterns.
That was a protection measure against thieves. They namely congregate in churches. And even in libraries

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hannaharendtcenter.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F11%2Fchain.png&hash=45b756bb64b88f0136c916a747d5c27c" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.hannaharendtcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/chain.png)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-05-28, 17:48:47
That be gigantic naivete.
Well, excuse me for not knowing all about polygamy, homosexuality and the Marquis de Sade when I was 8-10. :lol:

Or "The Bible condemns homosexuality, but that's old. Times have changed."
The Bible is almost invariably irrelevant to our current social and political issues. I'm surprised you would dispute that.

Marriage is a multifaceted concept with many features. Since this is so, it's possible to alter several features of it while preserving the core essence. Polygamy works like that. But "same-sex marriage" does away with the core essence and is therefore not marriage at all. You either perceive the core essence or you don't. The core essence is revealed in the creation story.
A very confused core it is. In any case, there's obviously neither support nor tacit approval of gay marriage in the Bible.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-05-28, 19:01:59
Ah, but Belfrager, we didn't need a host of statues, bits of supposed saints/relics and complicated rituals dear man! Just the straightforward man from Galilee simplicity. We unlocked the Bible and took it more practically into the world and we showed how successful it was when the old way was scuppered.  :D
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-28, 19:54:43
That be gigantic naivete.
Well, excuse me for not knowing all about polygamy, homosexuality and the Marquis de Sade when I was 8-10. :lol:
That's well into school age. You didn't have to know all about them, but you should have known about them.

The Bible is almost invariably irrelevant to our current social and political issues. I'm surprised you would dispute that.
Issues such as homosexuality? At least the Bible should have some say concerning the onslaught of Christians who consider themselves gays. Or rather the other way around - gays who want to be accepted in Church. Or else they will whine about discrimination.

As to Bible's relevance, it's a complicated matter to even define what our current social and political issues are, because modern world is a mess. And I would not refer people to the Bible lightly. Only the smartest people. Fiery preaching Americans demonstrate convincingly how the Bible in the wrong hands does more harm than good. Same with their constitution.

A very confused core it is.
To me things look confused now when the core has been lost.

In any case, there's obviously neither support nor tacit approval of gay marriage in the Bible.
That's obvious, but these days obvious doesn't seem to make a difference.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-29, 02:36:48
The arguments against the so-called "clobber passages" in bible are numerous, including that much of the Bible appears to be have mistranslated. There's even the issue of picking and choosing what parts of the Bible to enforce. There's what, eight passages or so in the entire Bible that have anything to do with homosexuality? But the fact is in the United States the bible is not the law of the land. Every time people take a "holy" book and try to make the law of the land, you wind up with the harshest interpretation of becoming the foundation for a dictatorship. Historically, this even includes Christianity.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-05-29, 03:42:53
To a degree it depens on the country.

The hard conservative type of it that flourishes in the States and deeply involved in politics the way it is  rather unique in the West and not typical.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-29, 06:28:37
The arguments against the so-called "clobber passages" in bible are numerous, including that much of the Bible appears to be have mistranslated.
This cannot be an argument. It can only be somebody's delusion. The Bible text is the closest-studied text of antiquity. Not just for word by word, but also letter by letter.

There's even the issue of picking and choosing what parts of the Bible to enforce. There's what, eight passages or so in the entire Bible that have anything to do with homosexuality?
You don't pick and choose to enforce the passages that have to do with homosexuality, specifically. The passages always have a context. The context in Leviticus is immediately surrounded by rulings on incest and bestiality. You either "pick and choose" to enforce all of it or none of it. There cannot be any special pleading on homosexuality.

In NT, the context is in lists along with idolaters, thieves, and drunkards (1. Cor 6:9-10). There's a so-called Gay Christian movement that imagines that homosexuality can be explained away on the list. Therefore logically it should be possible to also have Idolater Christian movement, Thieves Christian movement, Drunkards Christian movement, etc.

But the fact is in the United States the bible is not the law of the land. Every time people take a "holy" book and try to make the law of the land, you wind up with the harshest interpretation of becoming the foundation for a dictatorship. Historically, this even includes Christianity.
This does not apply to Bible specifically, but to all "holy" books. Such as to your constitution, which many people regard holy and God-inspired. Any text can be misinterpreted or sidestepped while being paid lip-service to. Dictatorships have their ways. Shouldn't sensible and meaningful rules and laws also have their ways?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-05-29, 07:26:18
That's well into school age. You didn't have to know all about them, but you should have known about them.
Yes, I knew about the existence of polygamy and slavery. Homosexuality? I wouldn't say so. "Homo" was a hurtful insult, but I didn't know what it meant. In any case, remember I was talking about expecting whether to come across such things in the Good Book. I don't think you understand how things are in a Christian nation. Heck, I think only Americans truly understand, but it's possible they also do in northern Germany and Scandinavia.

Idolater Christian movement
Aka Catholicism, the biggest of them all.

Thieves Christian movement
TV preachers. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-29, 09:07:00
"Homo" was a hurtful insult, but I didn't know what it meant.
Over here when I was young, "believer" was a similar insult and everybody knew what it meant. Believers were very few. I was not among them. I'm still not among them. I have not listed up in any church or temple or religious institution.

In any case, remember I was talking about expecting whether to come across such things in the Good Book.
You are saying that you honestly did not expect the Good Book to deal with such matters? I honestly expect the Good Book to give all the answers imaginable. Otherwise what's the book good for?

I don't think you understand how things are in a Christian nation. Heck, I think only Americans truly understand, but it's possible they also do in northern Germany and Scandinavia.
What specifically do I not understand? I understand a society under institutionalised pressure towards a common doctrinal denominator (Gleichschaltung), if that's what you mean. Or if I really don't understand, now's the opportunity to tell me.

Idolater Christian movement
Aka Catholicism, the biggest of them all.

Thieves Christian movement
TV preachers. :)
The difference is that Catholics don't say they are idolaters (even though they are) and televangelists don't say they are just happy for the money pouring in (even though they are). Gays are explicitly, as their name says, into gay things and they think this is somehow reconcilable with Christianity. It isn't.

Not saying one is better than the other. I'm saying one thing makes sense on the surface (until you start digging), the other thing doesn't make sense either superficially or upon closer inspection, yet the latter is perceived okay and normalisable in the modern world while of course neither is okay in any way.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-05-29, 10:42:08
What specifically do I not understand? I understand a society under institutionalised pressure towards a common doctrinal denominator (Gleichschaltung), if that's what you mean. Or if I really don't understand, now's the opportunity to tell me.
It's not just about what lies and half-truths are held as common truth, but a lot of it is about what you don't tell. Homosexuality? Evolution? The words might be known in hallway whispers, but their meaning isn't disseminated. Logic led me to some kind of agnostic deism until I educated myself about evolutionary theory. For example that it doesn't mean "right of the strongest" and that "social Darwinism" has bupkis to do with it. Anyway, I'm sure you understand intellectually, but your skeptical stance toward saying that I didn't know what "homo" meant when I was 8 betrays you don't understand viscerally. Then again, I suppose it would be more accurate to say that I had some ideas in the form of half-truths. One of the reasons I was sometimes called a "homo" was because I had some girl friends... It's even sadder that even as adults some people think you can't have girl friends without sexuality somehow coming into play, but as kids there's no such thing as sexuality to start with.

You are saying that you honestly did not expect the Good Book to deal with such matters? I honestly expect the Good Book to give all the answers imaginable.
I did not expect Jewish mythology to be a bunch of preachy fables devoid of logic and of mostly inferior quality to Egyptian, Norse, and Greek mythology. I wasn't even aware it should've been presented as Jewish mythology. I expected it to be more like Plato. Just like the Bible I think Plato is often wrong, but unlike the Bible Plato is almost invariably relevant.

Quote
Otherwise what's the book good for?
That's rather the point. It's presented as being good for everything, but it's good for nothing except cultural-historical understanding. And as a child in a Christian nation, that's a surprise. This is why so many more intelligent children/teens can be drawn so strongly toward Buddhism, Taoism, Platonism, etc.: those texts are what we were promised in the Bible. They have meaning and purpose and logic.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-29, 11:16:39
Logic led me to some kind of agnostic deism until I educated myself about evolutionary theory. For example that it doesn't mean "right of the strongest" and that "social Darwinism" has bupkis to do with it.
Very good that it doesn't say those things. But what does it say that makes it worth believing? And how did the proponents of social Darwinism become deceived to believe that they have support in the evolutionary theory?
 
That's rather the point. It's presented as being good for everything, but it's good for nothing except cultural-historical understanding. And as a child in a Christian nation, that's a surprise.
You must mean something else by cultural-historical than what cultural-historical actually means. Because, superficially, cultural-historical is what we are and most people live their entire lives like this, superficially, without ever noticing there's something missing.

You probably mean that the Bible has less and less connexion to our modern ways of life, and it's a surprise that it ever had a connexion, if its contents are understood as mere Jewish folklore. The truth is that it was not understood as mere Jewish folklore. Folklore and scripture may look very similar, but they are not the same. Viewed as scripture, the Bible had relevance to European history, culture, and religion, because you can't do without a scripture.

In turn, I would challenge you to name something else that is good for something, good for cultural-historical understanding or more. Good for something that you believe really matters. In Europe, there's nothing else to put alongside with the Bible. Now that the Bible is gone, it's a fast lane downhill.
 
This is why so many more intelligent children/teens can be drawn so strongly toward Buddhism, Taoism, Platonism, etc.: those texts are what we were promised in the Bible. They have meaning and purpose and logic.
This is where I indeed have a different perspective due to my upbringing. Nobody promised to me anything about the Bible. The Bible was hidden, hard to obtain any information about it. My family did not own a copy. When I managed to obtain one, I read it and made up my own mind independently. And I agree that Eastern scriptures make more sense and seem more to the point on what I take spirituality to be, and much other folklore qua folklore is more fascinating than the Bible, and that the Bible is conspicuously lacking in a consistent scriptural background philosophy, etc. but what you gonna do. We were given the book we were given. Perhaps we didn't deserve any better. I believe that's how it is.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2016-05-29, 13:54:16
We were given the book we were given. Perhaps we didn't deserve any better. I believe that's how it is.
If you need something better, try this.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fpdfmag.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F03%2FPlayboy-Nederland-Maart-2016-440x537.jpg&hash=531900336b1a25c2c604899996062462" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://pdfmag.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Playboy-Nederland-Maart-2016-440x537.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-29, 15:04:59
This cannot be an argument. It can only be somebody's delusion. The Bible text is the closest-studied text of antiquity. Not just for word by word, but also letter by letter.
Which is why so many scholars know that the translations people normally get a hold of are incorrect in many areas.... In fact, in the Romans passages all you really need to do is read the entire chapter to see something else besides same-sex love was going on. It was most likely a pagan fertility ritual or temple prostitution. The bible seems to be the only book in the world (besides maybe the Quran) in which people think they understand what it says on any given subject based on a couple sentences, keeping in mind that Bible is becomes a maze of self-contradictions if you look at close enough. 
The hard conservative type of it that flourishes in the States and deeply involved in politics the way it is  rather unique in the West and not typical.
True. What happens is the same-sex marriage was illegal in all 50 states and all other territories and possessions of the US. Yes, some LGBT groups wanted same-sex marriage but the law seemed poised to stay the same. The polls even showed the majority against it. But our Right had to push the issue and enact actual constitutional amendments against it in several states. The LGBT fought back. When it came to court, those amendments were found to run flagrantly afoul the equal protection clause of the American Constitution (there are numerous Federal and state rights and protections offered by legal marriage.) So, thanks to the Right, same-sex marriage is legal throughout America and polls now show the opposite. The Right, chiefly the GOP of course, couldn't leave well enough alone so they made their owns fears come true. 
The context in Leviticus is immediately surrounded by rulings on incest and bestiality
And not eating meat and drinking milk at the same time, or wearing clothes of different fabrics, or eating shell fish. C'mon bro. The world changed a little in the past several thousand years (not sure if any knows exactly since that was oral tradition long before it was written down.) Oh and you feel adulterers need to be stoned?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2016-05-29, 16:40:40
Even Putin supports gay marriage.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/2jOidPAhpJ0/hqdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-29, 18:20:19
Which is why so many scholars know that the translations people normally get a hold of are incorrect in many areas....
Scholars such as? And what specifically is erroneous?

In fact, in the Romans passages all you really need to do is read the entire chapter to see something else besides same-sex love was going on. It was most likely a pagan fertility ritual or temple prostitution.
I just showed how the 1. Cor 6:9 refers back to Leviticus. Can you demonstrate anything to the contrary?

The Romans passage "And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another;" is about action motivated by lust. You can read a ritual into it if you try really hard. You apparently succeeded, congrats.

The bible seems to be the only book in the world (besides maybe the Quran) in which people think they understand what it says on any given subject based on a couple sentences, keeping in mind that Bible is becomes a maze of self-contradictions if you look at close enough. 
Where do the Bible and Quran contradict the condemnation of homosexuality?

The context in Leviticus is immediately surrounded by rulings on incest and bestiality
And not eating meat and drinking milk at the same time, or wearing clothes of different fabrics, or eating shell fish. C'mon bro.
No, it's not about eating meat and drinking milk at the same time. It's prohibiting to boil a kid (a baby goat) in its mother's milk, which in Jewish tradition expanded to a prohibition to boil any kind of meat in any kind of milk. Anyway, I got it - since you think it's okay to wear clothing of mixed fabric, it stands proven that incest is also okay.

The world changed a little in the past several thousand years (not sure if any knows exactly since that was oral tradition long before it was written down.)
Yes, the world has changed and soon there will be yet another turn for the worse. What's your point?

Oh and you feel adulterers need to be stoned?
The fact that adultery is not considered a crime is a sign of degeneration of marriage. Is it not?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-05-29, 21:34:05
The fact that your oppositors are so bad should not make you think that religion can be achievied trhough philosophy and rational thinking Ersi.
There's a path for that in Catholicism and only in Catholicism, because it's the only religion to accept Rationality as a gift with the same importance as Faith, but you don't belong there.
You don't belong because we are what we are and your way was different from the way of those that belongs to the Holy Church.

You can keep amusing yourself of course. Or maybe walking your path. You are close, always getting closer in a difficult path. I wouldn't be sincere if I dont recognize it.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-30, 01:59:26
Yes, the world has changed and soon there will be yet another turn for the worse.
That you're picking and choosing the hell out of the Bible based on your own prejudices.

For all it's irrelevance to what's happening in America, it was a long time ago when I read that so prehaps I did get that wrong. If you're interested, a Jewish  site  (http://thetorah.com/meat-and-milk-origins-in-the-text/) explains it:

Quote
Bekhor Shor himself notices the changed context and gives a very different explanation for the phrase here.

It is forbidden to cook meat in milk. The Torah specifically forbids the cooking... It is also forbidden to eat or derive any benefit from meat [cooked] in milk. The inclusion of the term "its mother" comes to teach us the reason [for the law], for it would be cruelty to cook the flesh of a kid in the milk of [the mother] which raised it. [Therefore, all milk is forbidden,] for perhaps the animal from which this milk came was its mother... This mitzvah is similar to "do not take a mother[-bird] with its chicks" and "an animal and its offspring [should not be slaughtered in one day]."[11]  [/url]

So what? It's still bad business to pick and choose passages from a "holy book" and try to make it the law of the land.  Witness Cromwell's oppression of the Catholics, the Catholics burning people for heresy, the Salem witch trials, modern day Iran, Isis, etc.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-30, 03:16:20
Meanwhile, back to what's happening in America. The GOP has upgraded itself from the party of hate, to the party of histrionics and drama-queenery*. It actually doesn't matter what restroom a few people that consider themselves the opposite gender use.

This is actually GOP 4.0, the most bug ridden version yet. 1.0 was the party that modernized America, was formed largely by abolitionists as the anti-slavery party. 2.0 was still respectable, conservative party that acted as voice of reason. 3.0 became little more than an anti-LGBT party. 4.0 is cuckoo for Coco Puffs (observe the obsession over restrooms and Donald Trump actually getting the nomination) and have little relevant to say about shaping America's future. Unfortunately, it needs to be put down like any other mad dog.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-05-30, 03:59:27
Watched a passing news item on the Libertarian Party. I know they only get 1% and it was curious they are in fact the only third party in every election area. The item also mentioned a poll saying that  - can't recall the actual figure but was over 40% of people would like more than a two party choice.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-30, 04:07:49
The fact that your oppositors are so bad should not make you think that religion can be achievied trhough philosophy and rational thinking Ersi.
True religion will be given from above and received when the person has clear enough mind and pure enough heart. Sincere philosophy is a process of purification.

Most people don't like to have clear mind or pure heart. Rather, they seek to legitimise the impurities they have. Religion becomes twisted totally out of joint among the irreligious. Horrible to think what Sang would do if he were nominally religious. Westboro Baptist Church is somewhere in his neighbourhood, if I'm not mistaken. That's how religion works in America.

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fguardianlv.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F12%2FPaul-Walker-Westboro-Baptist-Church-Funeral.jpg&hash=2a401ffe9e54982e83f6108f326227a2" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://guardianlv.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Paul-Walker-Westboro-Baptist-Church-Funeral.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-30, 14:59:06
I just now read an article on them. They see the discontent over Trump and Clinton as their big chance and they might be right if they can get the word out.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-30, 15:30:10
[Westboro Baptist Church] see the discontent over Trump and Clinton as their big chance and they might be right if they can get the word out.
Whose big chance? A big chance for Westboro Baptist Church? In what sense? Are they running for president?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-30, 17:05:07
I meant that for Howie's comment on the Libertarian Party. 
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-05-30, 23:52:46
kind of puzzled with your word ersi as thought I had given a reasonable news item?

rjhowie
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-31, 04:33:24
Westboro Baptist Church is somewhere in his neighbourhood, if I'm not mistaken
Lol, no. And Europeans complain that an American might mistake. say the Czech Republic and Slovakia. Google informs me that Westboro Baptist church is a little under 1,300 miles (2029 km) from here.  Else where in the world, Europeans are feeling superior to Americans because we might misidentify their countries while forgetting one one those nations is the size of one of our states :left:

You're the closest we have to a radical in this thread that we have on queer issues. All I said was that the bible possibly doesn't say what you think it does. I also noted that by the American constitution that whole argument is is irrelevant.

Oh yeah, I also noted the queers were not even agitating about the stupid bathroom and that it was certain nutty sects of Christianity and the GOP that invented this whole "issue" and the LGBT just wanted to be left alone. What kind of person even sits around all day thinking of idiotic, spiteful laws like this anyway to address no-issues like this. They're the ones with mental problems.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-31, 07:23:51
Westboro Baptist Church is somewhere in his neighbourhood, if I'm not mistaken
Lol, no. And Europeans complain that an American might mistake. say the Czech Republic and Slovakia. Google informs me that Westboro Baptist church is a little under 1,300 miles (2029 km) from here.  Else where in the world, Europeans are feeling superior to Americans because we might misidentify their countries while forgetting one one those nations is the size of one of our states :left:
I don't know in what state you are. I don't mix up American states. I assumed you were somewhere South, but I was mistaken. I even explicitly allowed myself the chance to be mistaken.

You're the closest we have to a radical in this thread that we have on queer issues.
In what way am I radical? Is it radical to identify queerhood for what it is?

All I said was that the bible possibly doesn't say what you think it does.
This despite the fact that I have read it, even looked into some scholarly textual criticism, and you haven't? Frenzie here has commendably read it. There are some fat boring books we simply must read, if we are to consider ourselves civilised.

Oh yeah, I also noted the queers were not even agitating about the stupid bathroom and that it was certain nutty sects of Christianity and the GOP that invented this whole "issue" and the LGBT just wanted to be left alone. What kind of person even sits around all day thinking of idiotic, spiteful laws like this anyway to address no-issues like this. They're the ones with mental problems.
I agree that your GOP occasionally displays mental problems. I find nothing good to say about a party that sets Trump as their presidential candidate. But the whole LGBT(Q etc.) movement is also pathological, officially so not too long ago. Political issues surrounding them cannot be isolated.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-31, 09:34:20
don't know in what state you are. I don't mix up American states. I assumed you were somewhere South, but I was mistaken. I even explicitly allowed myself the chance to be mistaken.
Nope, Las Vegas. Don't be so defensive, bro. On my part, I thought it was common knowledge in these forums so maybe I was mistaken. (in fact, Kansas is quit far from the South as well)

This despite the fact that I have read it, even looked into some scholarly textual criticism, and you haven't? Frenzie here has commendably read it.
I read it a couple times myself and took my catechisms. I made one mistake on the context meat and milk, but for the rest I was correct. I didn't bother offering the full rebuttal because this thread is about what's happening in the Americas. It's not about the Bible. The Bible itself has been argued over by people with more knowledge of it than both of us put together. Different equally knowledgable scholars read the bible in the original Greek and came to different conclusions. As far as the Hebrew OT, the oldest very partial copies are from 600 BC and that's recent by biblical standards. More complete is the Nash Papyrus containing the Decalogue and Deuteronomy. You think it hasn't been altered the thousands of years prior to that? So a debate on the Bible might be interesting, but it's a different thread.

Quote
In what way am I radical? Is it radical to identify queerhood for what it is?
Because you're blathering about how oppressive queers supposedly are. I understand you're talking about Europe, but in the US being the GOP's punching bag is really old.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2F00%2Fs%2FNDgwWDgwMA%3D%3D%2Fz%2Fxk0AAOSw9N1VnCQD%2F%24_57.JPG&hash=311ab74e019b657b629826d41c42b95b" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NDgwWDgwMA==/z/xk0AAOSw9N1VnCQD/$_57.JPG)
The snake symbol originated in with the American revolution. Unfortunately, the GOP decided to tread on him intentionally and are crying because they got bit. So now with the ridiculous "bathroom bills" they're throwing rocks at him and will cry when they're in the hospital getting treated for snakebite again. And will even be surprised when that happens.  I think it was Einstein that said doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. That's what's happening between the GOP and LGBT in America.

One the "bathroom bills", once again transpeople have being with the restroom they feel comfortable this whole time without causing problems. Most of the time, people didn't even know they were in the restroom with one. I think the reason pervs might try to dress like women to hide in the women's restroom because the GOP and some sects of Christianity gave the idea in the first place like the insane morons they are.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-31, 11:09:35
don't know in what state you are. I don't mix up American states. I assumed you were somewhere South, but I was mistaken. I even explicitly allowed myself the chance to be mistaken.
Nope, Las Vegas. Don't be so defensive, bro. On my part, I thought it was common knowledge in these forums so maybe I was mistaken. (in fact, Kansas is quit far from the South as well)
We haven't had much direct interaction, so I tend to mix up your location with the guy from Mississippi. I hope I can internalise your location for good now.

I made one mistake on the context meat and milk, but for the rest I was correct.
No. Any claim that those homosexuality passages are either wrongly translated or that we don't know what they are saying is outright false. Jews never had any doubts what they are about.

I didn't bother offering the full rebuttal because this thread is about what's happening in the Americas. It's not about the Bible.
Don't be shy. If you have a full rebuttal, let's have it. On my part, I have been through similar debates before, so it would be interesting to see if the arguments have evolved anywhere.

The Bible itself has been argued over by people with more knowledge of it than both of us put together. Different equally knowledgable scholars read the bible in the original Greek and came to different conclusions.
Not those passages. Only gay lobby disputes them, but gay lobby demonstrably does not have much knowledge on the issue. In fact, precious little in the entire text of the Bible is disputed or dubious, compared to any other ancient text.


As far as the Hebrew OT, the oldest very partial copies are from 600 BC and that's recent by biblical standards. More complete is the Nash Papyrus containing the Decalogue and Deuteronomy. You think it hasn't been altered the thousands of years prior to that?
What specifically did they change so that we should be uncertain about the specific passages? And what proof do you have that something has been changed?

Quote
In what way am I radical? Is it radical to identify queerhood for what it is?
Because you're blathering about how oppressive queers supposedly are.
Actually I listed some facts, instead of blathering. I'll back it up as soon as you back up things yourself.
 
So now with the ridiculous "bathroom bills" they're throwing rocks at him and will cry when they're in the hospital getting treated for snakebite again. And will even be surprised when that happens.  I think it was Einstein that said doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. That's what's happening between the GOP and LGBT in America.
GOP stupidly doesn't understand that the game is over. But this doesn't change the nature of the gay lobby. And everybody who is speaking up against the gay lobby is not GOP.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-05-31, 11:23:54
Perhaps it's time to define what's "gay lobby" (and where).
Over here, it's requiring public schools to drop Mother's and Father's Days celebrations - because they are embarrassing. :eyes:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-31, 11:38:15
Lobby is that which pushes through laws favourable to themselves. Over here, gay lobby pushed through a "cohabitation law" which is basically a duplication of marriage law minus some family-related regulations. In some other European countries, marriage law itself was changed to specifically suit the gay lobby. And in parts of Europe, the gay lobby either demands the removal of "heteronormativity" or they try their best to teach "alternative family models" in schools and kindergartens.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-31, 13:41:32
Of the religious right lobby that dwarfs the "gay lobby?"
the gay lobby either demands the removal of "heteronormativity" or they try their best to teach "alternative family models" in schools and kindergartens.
In other words, understand not all families are the same. A few percentage of kids might have same-sex parents and understand how to deal with it. Oh and the kids in those arrangements shouldn't be bullied because of it. Oh the horror :cry: This is not oppression by any reasonable stretch of the imagination.
marriage law itself was changed to specifically suit the gay lobby.
In America the solution was obvious except to the religious right. I mentioned the constitution, but there was also the idiocy of being married in one state, cross state lines and no longer being considered married (which is problematic for a variety of legal reasons.)

Many people confuse the religious rite of marriage with civil marriage (which is legal marriage) The two have little to do with each other. For instance,  there were churches in America that performed the religious rite before equal marriage became the law of the land, but it had no legal standing. Actual legal marriage only requires a judge and some witnesses. In Kentucky, the infamous Kim Davis attempted to block legal marriage for LGBT in her county based on religious convictions, the fact that the Bible speaks far more about her multiple divorces, adultery and remarriages than it does about homosexuality not withstanding. She was in the wrong the reasons I mentioned. She doesn't want them married in her church, fine and her pastor can deny granting an LGBT couple the ceremony. Wants to prevent people from their equal protection under the law as guaranteed by the constitution via denying legal marriage that has nothing to do with her church, not so much.

In America what you're talking about was called civil unions. The problem with that was also crossing state lines in that states didn't have to recognize them. But neither civil unions type arrangements nor marriage oppress those that are offended by them. I do think clergy should be able to refuse to marriage the same-sex couple but a judge, as civil servant of ALL the people, should not be able to.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-05-31, 15:38:19
Of the religious right lobby that dwarfs the "gay lobby?"
There is no religious right in Europe. Gay lobby is operating free of any obstacle. In America, religious right is at least putting up a semblance of a fight.


the gay lobby either demands the removal of "heteronormativity" or they try their best to teach "alternative family models" in schools and kindergartens.
In other words, understand not all families are the same. A few percentage of kids might have same-sex parents and understand how to deal with it. Oh and the kids in those arrangements shouldn't be bullied because of it. Oh the horror :cry: This is not oppression by any reasonable stretch of the imagination.
Ever considered it from the children's point of view? You know, they are supposed to learn in biology how kids are born, that everybody has a mother and father, biologically. Then comes the civil science or whatever you call it. Oh, I forgot, the civil science topics get already covered in kindergarten, so by the time it gets to biology the child is already a mess, even when originally from a decent home.

marriage law itself was changed to specifically suit the gay lobby.
In America the solution was obvious except to the religious right. I mentioned the constitution, but there was also the idiocy of being married in one state, cross state lines and no longer being considered married (which is problematic for a variety of legal reasons.)
It would be a problem, if gay marriage were a marriage, but it isn't, so trust me, there's no problem. If you say gay marriage is marriage, now that's a problem. Because it's something nobody has yet proven.

Gay lobby only has law on their side. They don't have anything else, such as rational argument or biology. That's why it's a lobby, pure and simple.

In America what you're talking about was called civil unions. The problem with that was also crossing state lines in that states didn't have to recognize them.
So, now you call them civil unions. There should be no problem, as long as you don't mix them up with marriage.

But neither civil unions type arrangements nor marriage oppress those that are offended by them. I do think clergy should be able to refuse to marriage the same-sex couple but a judge, as civil servant of ALL the people, should not be able to.
But here you are doing it again, mixing up what should not be mixed up.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-31, 17:39:26
In America, religious right is at least putting up a semblance of a fight.
A bully hits you so you hit him back. Who's the one putting up a fight?
Ever considered it from the children's point of view? You know, they are supposed to learn in biology how kids are born, that everybody has a mother and father, biologically
Wow is this getting silly. Sally being raised by Sue and Mary does not interfere with biology class. Grasp at straws much?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-31, 17:47:00
So, now you call them civil unions. There should be no problem, as long as you don't mix them up with marriage.
No. The idea of civil unions was thought up as an alternative to calling marriage. But there would be no requirement to recognize "civil unions" at the Federal level nor across state lines. Further, it was questionable what a "civil union" was even supposed to be, ie would it have really granted equal protection under the law. Another huge problem was also that the wording of the state amendments would have also outlawed "civil unions" not to mention deny protections for many heterosexual couples.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-06-01, 03:02:10
Ever considered it from the children's point of view? You know, they are supposed to learn in biology how kids are born, that everybody has a mother and father, biologically
Wow is this getting silly. Sally being raised by Sue and Mary does not interfere with biology class. Grasp at straws much?
Not just biology class, but biology itself. There is no Sally born of Sue and Mary. You are presenting an impossibility as if it were a reality.

This is what I mean when I say that the gay lobby don't have rational argument and biology on their side. They don't have reality on their side, but we are instituting laws based on their nonsense.

The idea of civil unions was thought up as an alternative to calling marriage. But there would be no requirement to recognize "civil unions" at the Federal level nor across state lines.
So? Where's the problem? The problem only arises if you want to insist that the thought-up civil union is as good as marriage even though it's not. You are not even attempting to show how they are the same or why they should be the same.

Further, it was questionable what a "civil union" was even supposed to be, ie would it have really granted equal protection under the law.
Equal to what? And why should it be equal?

In Germany (and Estonia, because we copy most of our recent laws from Germany) it presents formal legal difficulties to call same-sex union a marriage, because marriage is defined in a law called Family law, which is part of a huge and intricate framework (used to be called "civil codex" over here). Redefining marriage there would logically collapse the entire legal framework built to support families. Hence Germany (and Estonia) instituted additional laws called "cohabitation law" which gave a chance for same-sex couples under a different name, duplicating a bunch of regulations about marriage. If you don't understand or acknowledge how and why marriage and family are related, you are not competent to issue statements on this topic.

American legal system is different of course. It's easy to see how it's not even a system, on the SCOTUS level or any other level. It doesn't try to be, so it's okay.

Another huge problem was also that the wording of the state amendments would have also outlawed "civil unions" not to mention deny protections for many heterosexual couples.
What specific protections would be denied and why would that be a problem? Why should civil unions be the same as marriage? I know that the gay lobby insists that they are, but they have not given any reason. I hoped you would bring some clarity here.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-06-01, 04:21:18
ersi, the vanguard of the "sexual revolution" doesn't use logic or persuasion: They use brute force. Which, nowadays, means "lawfare" and regulatory destruction of society's laws...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-01, 08:12:05
Not just biology class, but biology itself. There is no Sally born of Sue and Mary. You are presenting an impossibility as if it were a reality.
This is beyond silly. By the time biology is even taught, the students already know this. There are a number of ways Sue and Mary could be raising a child together. And it doesn't even necessarily mean one had sex with a man, although one might have (possibly one's a little sexually fluid, or she was attempting to have sex with a man before realized it wasn't for her keeping in mind to get pregnant a women just needs to lay their and doesn't even have to enjoy what's happening...) Or the child might have been adopted. You're presenting situations as impossibilities when their are multiple ways it could have happened (and does...)
Equal to what? And why should it be equal?
To remain in compliance with the constitution, which is the supreme law of the United States. No state, county or city law may violate the constitution. This is also why some state gun control laws where struck down by Federal courts, having gone so far that they violate the second amendment. At times, both the American Left and Right get upset by Federal court rulings but the constitution is how we keep order and preserve freedom in the US. In these cases, the constitution clearly states all people have equal protection under the law (google up protections offered by marriage in the US) and that the right to bear arms shall not be infringed. Get it yet? All people in the US are guaranteed the same protections and rights regardless of the issue and where they live.
Hence Germany (and Estonia) instituted additional laws called "cohabitation law" which gave a chance for same-sex couples under a different name, duplicating a bunch of regulations about marriage
If all the rights and protections are duplicated, I don't see a problem.
You are not even attempting to show how they are the same or why they should be the same.
Of course not. Everyone is supposed to be subject to the same rules. Nor am I attempting argue in favor of civil unions.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-06-01, 09:18:11
Not just biology class, but biology itself. There is no Sally born of Sue and Mary. You are presenting an impossibility as if it were a reality.
This is beyond silly. By the time biology is even taught, the students already know this. There are a number of ways Sue and Mary could be raising a child together. And it doesn't even necessarily mean one had sex with a man, although one might have (possibly one's a little sexually fluid, or she was attempting to have sex with a man before realized it wasn't for her keeping in mind to get pregnant a women just needs to lay their and doesn't even have to enjoy what's happening...) Or the child might have been adopted. You're presenting situations as impossibilities when their are multiple ways it could have happened (and does...)
Such a long non-answer. You did not even begin to tell how a Sally could be born of Sue and Mary. But I knew you wouldn't. You cannot, because it's a biological impossibility. You can talk about everything else, but not about the point.

Equal to what? And why should it be equal?
To remain in compliance with the constitution, which is the supreme law of the United States. No state, county or city law may violate the constitution.
Doesn't your constitution lay out specific conditions in what respect people should be equal and other conditions when not? Like with freedom - it doesn't mean everybody is free to do anything and everything. Also equality does not mean equality in every respect. There is a difference between Congress and President, and the difference is there for a reason. There are also differences between parents and children, teachers and students, etc. Same with conditions to marriage.

You cannot marry just anybody, if marriage is to have a meaning. You can marry anybody, if you actually don't care about marriage or its meaning. Gay lobby doesn't care about marriage, this has been clear all along.

If all the rights and protections are duplicated, I don't see a problem.
But all the rights cannot be duplicated, if rationality matters. Same-sex couples cannot have the same rights as biological parents, because same-sex couples can never be biological parents.  And what's the point of duplicating laws anyway? If you think all must be duplicated, then you don't have a point.

You are not even attempting to show how they are the same or why they should be the same.
Of course not. Everyone is supposed to be subject to the same rules. Nor am I attempting argue in favor of civil unions.
This is the sad part with the gay lobby. They never had a rational case to make, but they get to influence laws, despite the impossibility and obvious damage that they are doing.

Rationality out of the window is a pretty serious damage, I would say. Since to you rationality doesn't matter, it's a bit odd that you don't swallow up GOP toilet laws without complaining. Is it because GOP is doing it? Or is it because the toilet laws are somehow unequal? Do you have unisex all-age toilets over there so that it would be properly equal? Did you have them since the beginning of the constitution that says everybody must be equal? If not, why not? If some, then why only some? Maybe because the constitution actually doesn't equate indiscriminately?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-01, 10:42:03
In what rational case is there against equal marriage. It doesn't harm you. I pointed how that it's not the same as religious marriage, so clergy aren't being harmed by it. There's the "think of the children" argument. The studies conclude the children are fine. All it boiled down to was that people's precious little religious feelings were hurt. Are you saying it's rational to keep inventing new and redundant laws just because somebody's feelings are hurt. That's the moral equivalent of making new laws just for the sake of PC, just for the Right instead of the Left. 
You did not even begin to tell how a Sally could be born of Sue and Mary. But I knew you wouldn't.
Have you never heard of artificial insemination? Do I have to spoon feed you everything? I want to be able assume a base level of knowledge beyond what I already knew in about the fifth grade. This is even a common procedure for heterosexual couples. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Estonia is a primitive country that's unable to do this.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-06-01, 11:04:58
(I can't imagine a case of artificial inovulation - yet.)
Equality isn't equal to everybody.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-06-01, 13:35:45
In what rational case is there against equal marriage.
"Equal marriage" may enter the sphere of rational dicussion as soon as you define it. But rest assured, as soon as you attempt to define it you will see that it doesn't exist.

There's the "think of the children" argument. The studies conclude the children are fine. All it boiled down to was that people's precious little religious feelings were hurt.
Can you point to one such study? I'd be interested in seeing their definition of "fine".

Are you saying it's rational to keep inventing new and redundant laws just because somebody's feelings are hurt. That's the moral equivalent of making new laws just for the sake of PC, just for the Right instead of the Left. 
Of course reaction for the sake of being reactionary is irrational. Just like it's irrational to be destructive for the sake of being destructive.

Traditional marriage is not just traditional, it also reflects biological reality. To overlook this reality is irrational and destructive.
 
You did not even begin to tell how a Sally could be born of Sue and Mary. But I knew you wouldn't.
Have you never heard of artificial insemination? Do I have to spoon feed you everything?
I have heard of many things artificial. Are you saying artificial is as good as natural? Or that both are okay and should be equal because the constitution says so?

Anyway, even with artificial insemination, Sue (or Mary, whichever you had in mind) will not become Sally's father. But you knew that. (I'm supposing here that you know what "father" means, but maybe I will have to spoonfeed it to you.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-01, 14:26:55
Can you point to one such study? I'd be interested in seeing their definition of "fine".
Oh, there are lots of them. Let's take  one at random  (http://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2458-14-635).

Quote
Abstract

Background
It has been suggested that children with same-sex attracted parents score well in psychosocial aspects of their health, however questions remain about the impact of stigma on these children. Research to date has focused on lesbian parents and has been limited by small sample sizes. This study aims to describe the physical, mental and social wellbeing of Australian children with same-sex attracted parents, and the impact that stigma has on them.

Methods
A cross-sectional survey, the Australian Study of Child Health in Same-Sex Families, was distributed in 2012 to a convenience sample of 390 parents from Australia who self-identified as same-sex attracted and had children aged 0-17 years. Parent-reported, multidimensional measures of child health and wellbeing and the relationship to perceived stigma were measured.

Results
315 parents completed the survey (completion rate = 81%) representing 500 children. 80% of children had a female index parent while 18% had a male index parent. Children in same-sex parent families had higher scores on measures of general behavior, general health and family cohesion compared to population normative data (β = 2.93, 95% CI = 0.35 to 5.52, P = .03; β = 5.60, 95% CI = 2.69 to 8.52, P = <.001; and β = 6.01, 95% CI = 2.84 to 9.17, P = <.001 respectively). There were no significant differences between the two groups for all other scale scores. Physical activity, mental health, and family cohesion were all negatively associated with increased stigma (β = -3.03, 95% CI = -5.86 to -0.21, P = .04; β = -10.45, 95% CI = -18.48 to -2.42, P = .01; and β = -9.82, 95% CI = -17.86 to -1.78, P = .02 respectively) and the presence of emotional symptoms was positively associated with increased stigma (β =0.94, 95% CI = 0.08 to 1.81, P = .03).

Conclusions
Australian children with same-sex attracted parents score higher than population samples on a number of parent-reported measures of child health. Perceived stigma is negatively associated with mental health. Through improved awareness of stigma these findings play an important role in health policy, improving child health outcomes.

Need  another  (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1741-3737.2009.00678.x/abstract) just to be sure?

Quote
Claims that children need both a mother and father presume that women and men parent differently in ways crucial to development but generally rely on studies that conflate gender with other family structure variables. We analyze findings from studies with designs that mitigate these problems by comparing 2-parent families with same or different sex coparents and single-mother with single-father families. Strengths typically associated with married mother-father families appear to the same extent in families with 2 mothers and potentially in those with 2 fathers. Average differences favor women over men, but parenting skills are not dichotomous or exclusive. The gender of parents correlates in novel ways with parent-child relationships but has minor significance for children's psychological adjustment and social success.

So when you're silly enough to say Mary or Sue will not become Sally's father, rest assured to she doesn't need to be. That is unless you went one of the women to undergo gender reassignment surgery. In which case, I guess we have to be asinine enough to argue about which restroom s/he's supposed to use.  :rolleyes:


Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-06-01, 15:11:23
Watched a passing news item on the Libertarian Party. I know they only get 1% and it was curious they are in fact the only third party in every election area. The item also mentioned a poll saying that  - can't recall the actual figure but was over 40% of people would like more than a two party choice.
Yes, several of the debates took place in my neck of the woods Biloxi, MS, to be specific.
Gary Johnson received the nomination (again, as he was the nominee in 2012).

I voted for him in 2012, and shall be doing so again. My conscience was clear in 2012, and shall be so once again in 2016. Johnson is leaps and bounds better than the two crooks and buffoons that have taken over the Demlopub/Republicrat parties.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-06-01, 15:16:55
Also, @ersi , WBC is a good distance away from me. They are located in Kansas, so thankfully the Arkansians, Oklahomians, and Missourians can deal with their rubbish.

We have enough nutters* in this state to deal with already, without dealing with those asshats.


*= For instance, the American Family Association which is located in Tupelo, MS, (Elvis Presley's hometown) and is roughly an hour away from where I live.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Family_Association)

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-01, 23:41:34
The gender of parents correlates in novel ways with parent-child relationships but has minor significance for children's psychological adjustment and social success.
There have been people executed for less than that "study".
"Social success" must mean being the drag queen at the queer club.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-06-02, 02:22:15
Well colonel, I would say in a brief way the sooner your country can get away from the limitations of the present system then the better. it has to start from somewhere and more and more are getting fed up with both the 2 main corporate parties. For now both Clinton and Trump are of little use and they are common in another way and that is dangerous and con merchants. The wider the franchise becomes the more practical democracy is evident. The future is with the young.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-06-02, 06:25:41
Do you mean, Howie, that we should be more like you? :) Why ever would we want to be?

London had a communist mayor. Now, it has a Muslim mayor. What's next? Satan, himself? :)

Ah! The benefits of a "wider" democracy...!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-06-02, 18:20:39
Can you point to one such study? I'd be interested in seeing their definition of "fine".
Oh, there are lots of them. Let's take  one at random  (http://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2458-14-635).
It doesn't look like random. It's done cleverer than on average, because I had to read further than the first two sentences to be able to dismiss it.

It's an interesting study, even though it doesn't settle our difference. My idea was to take a look at their definition of "fine", but since this study does not contain this word, we'll have to look what the study is about according to the researchers themselves.

The aim: "This study aims to describe the physical, mental and social wellbeing of Australian children with same-sex attracted parents, and the impact that stigma has on them."

The conclusion: "Australian children with same-sex attracted parents score higher than population samples on a number of parent-reported measures of child health. Perceived stigma is negatively associated with mental health."

Some problems.
- It's not really about children's health or wellbeing. It's a survey where only parents are questioned, so it's more about how children's wellbeing is viewed by the parents.
- For general population there are real track records of people's health and wellbeing in the form of statistics collected from physicians. If this data was compared to the survey data, then the data sets are not comparable. I hope they did not do this gross mistake.
- If they did not do the mistake described in the previous point and were comparing that which is comparable, i.e. same-sex couple surveys with hetero couple surveys, then the crux becomes what is meant by stigma.

Because, you see, they say that stigma associates negatively with mental health (this is intuitively so and, if not supported empirically, there must be some mistake in the methodology), while at the same time they affirm that there is either no difference between types of couples or that the same-sex couples do better in terms of wellbeing. To achieve this result, they must have identified and removed the effect of stigma from the results. I don't see how they did that.

At one point, it's said "In fact, a number of authors agree that simply asking a question that compares the sexual orientation of children with same-sex parents to children with heterosexual parents reinforces a heterosexist viewpoint that stigmatises same-sex families" while this entire survey is specifically directed to same-sex couples and asks direct questions about the nature of the subject's current and former relationships ("heterosexual", "same-sex") and sexual orientation ("lesbian", "gay", "bisexual", "other"??!!), so how is this survey itself not having a stigmatising effect? I don't see this issue addressed. Yet the survey results in shining conclusions.

Of course stigma associates negatively with the wellbeing of LGBT(Q etc.) folks. Then how do they display such brilliant results in this survey, as if there were no stigma?

Eventually, there's the broader moral question: Is the stigma justified? Is there a good reason why LGBT(Q etc.) folks should be normalised? If normalised, is it certain that there will be no adverse effects in terms of general sexual culture and legislation? When we normalise LGBT(Q etc.) folks, what specifically is it that we are normalising? Because, you see, they are an open-ended etc. folks ("other" in the survey). Are you positively sure that you are not accidentally normalising pedophilia, incest, bestiality, etc? If you are absolutely certain that you are far from it, then surely you can prove it right here right now. If not, then I say the stigma has a common-sense real-life basis and any irrational attempt to remove the stigma will result in unforeseen consequences. For example, some extremist right-wing queer-hunters may get much more votes than you would like in the next elections.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-02, 23:51:21
There have been people executed for less than that "study".
"Social success" must mean being the drag queen at the queer club.
Oh please. Your fluffy "rationality" of "nature" can't withstand real rationality that can be quantified. Multiple studies of indicated that children raised by same-sex parents do as well as opposite sex. In fact, the first article breaks down exactly what it means.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-06-03, 04:04:35
Oh please. Your fluffy "rationality" of "nature" can't withstand real rationality that can be quantified. Multiple studies of indicated that children raised by same-sex parents do as well as opposite sex. In fact, the first article breaks down exactly what it means.
You have no idea what was being quantified there and how. It did not measure children's wellbeing at all, but adults' opinion of it. Moreover, the results were enhanced by clearing away something called perceived stigma.

Under the heading "Perceived stigma" it says, "Parents were asked to indicate how often in the past year their family had experienced stigma related to the their same-sex attraction (eg have people gossiped about you and your family, have people excluded you and your family?)" How are the questions in parentheses related to sexual orientation? They are not. They are related to nothing. Gossipers gossip just for the joy of gossiping, bullies bully just for the joy of bullying, everybody experiences being "excluded" and nobody is exempt from it.

Were the hetero studies similarly enhanced by clearing away the stigma measure? Was it quantified how gossiping etc. correlated with wellbeing of heteros? I know, it simply assumed that nobody gossips heteros. So much for quantification. It's a very delicate matter what exactly is being quantified.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-06-03, 06:29:44
You give ample red neck attitudes a wide support Oakdale. London did not have a Commie mayor it had a left winger then a fully Conservative one (twice by the way) now a Muslim. That is democracy but to your mind-set anything outside of your restricted politics is Bolshevik. Didn't agree with the leftist or Muslim mayors but that IS practical democracy and that width cannot happen in the US of A and fine you know it.  You unfortunately have a restricted way over there and more and more people have at last realised hat one but a way to go yet. When you have a broader thing locally, State and nationally then try and challenge but ours is broader and more democratic. It is the old story that when folk like yourself cannot answer or know there is a problem you try to swerve elsewhere. Hey, I will give you that stance as being regular too!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-06-03, 11:43:07
Howie, you think Boris wasn't a communist? And you think a "practicing" Muslim is furthering the English tradition of democracy? (Let's not quibble over terms: You reject the only sensible Scots from your history, and cow-tow to the English... But -I have to give you credit- you've not yet succumbed to learning "their" language! Soldier on...)

I don't wish to "challenge" your wider democracy, RJ: You're welcome to it! But we may not bail you out, again... :)

I appreciate that you'd like to see us (U.S.) go down the same rabbit hole. That's the sort of fellow you are, I've come to know. Who knows? Perhaps even you'll live long enough to witness that... I hope not! (But, Long life, Howie! I just don't want my country to follow the path yours trail-blazed.) We're a different breed -- what used to be called, before the current era, free men.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-06-03, 16:31:54
You really are a desperado. Boris is an member of the Conservative Party and as the PM Cameron has stated he will not go for a third term Boris may step forward. All you have over there is the clown Trump and that liar and con merchant, Clinton. What a charade that is and othes are kept out of the picture by the big two. Why if such a great democracy are so many suffering? The big two really only look after the haves and con the rest.

You do try (will give you that) to be a satire punch) but behind that is no great argument or principle with what you lot are saddled with.  Instead you interfere in the world, restrict your own folks rights and dance on law. You do in practice need a wider situation but don't expect it soon as it will be a long slow climb against the money controllers. The decent if being privately honest will I am sure sigh at what the country is saddled with. Trump as a possible leader? Shows the depth of your problem.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-03, 23:23:00
Oh please. Your fluffy "rationality" of "nature" can't withstand real rationality that can be quantified. Multiple studies of indicated that children raised by same-sex parents do as well as opposite sex. In fact, the first article breaks down exactly what it means.
You have no idea what was being quantified there and how. It did not measure children's wellbeing at all, but adults' opinion of it. Moreover, the results were enhanced by clearing away something called perceived stigma.

Under the heading "Perceived stigma" it says, "Parents were asked to indicate how often in the past year their family had experienced stigma related to the their same-sex attraction (eg have people gossiped about you and your family, have people excluded you and your family?)" How are the questions in parentheses related to sexual orientation? They are not. They are related to nothing. Gossipers gossip just for the joy of gossiping, bullies bully just for the joy of bullying, everybody experiences being "excluded" and nobody is exempt from it.

Were the hetero studies similarly enhanced by clearing away the stigma measure? Was it quantified how gossiping etc. correlated with wellbeing of heteros? I know, it simply assumed that nobody gossips heteros. So much for quantification. It's a very delicate matter what exactly is being quantified.

It's even worst, there's simply not enough data for conducting any credible study. How many children have been raised for at least until 18 years old by legal homosexual "couples"? Saying "there are multiple studies that..." it's not even a fallacy, it's just a pure lie and manipulating propaganda.

Edit: there's a better thread for this, the same sex marriage. well, the same way gays are everywhere, posting against should be done everywhere.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-07, 09:25:34
Some problems.
- It's not really about children's health or wellbeing. It's a survey where only parents are questioned, so it's more about how children's wellbeing is viewed by the parents.
Oh yes, let's do dismiss parents' reports of their children's outcomes. The fact remains that what matters in parenting is not what's between a parent's legs but what's in their hearts and parenting skills.
http://qz.com/438469/the-science-is-clear-children-raised-by-same-sex-parents-are-at-no-disadvantage/
Quote
In January, researchers from the Columbia Law School examined 76 studies published after 1985 and found that only four of them concluded that children raised by gay couples faced additional adversity as a result of having same-sex parents. To be considered, each of the studies had to meet established guidelines that accounted for credibility and relevance.
More recently, researchers from the University of Colorado Denver and the University of Oregon used the tool Web of Science to examine the ways in which scientific papers analyzed children of same-sex parents over time, and how each paper cited others to back its analysis. They found that over time, more and more papers cited other research that highlighted that there's "no differences" in the outcomes for children based solely on whether they were raised by same-sex, heterosexual, or single parents.

That's right, it's the family environment that determines a child's outcome, not what the family consists of. There's plenty of the data, Belfrager. It's just that the analysis and results of it is contrary to what some people would hope for.  Multiple studies show this and some do include the adult children raised by same-sex couples.

Maybe there is a "gay lobby" in the form  of the HRC and  groups in America. But it remains dwarfed by the religious lobby, who must invent one idiotic issue after another to keep the donations flowing. The reason the "gay lobby" wins is that what the religious lobby tries to tends to violate the equal protection clause of the American constitution and runs perilously close to violating the establishment of a religion clause as well (in these cases it tends to be fundamentalist protestant christianity.) You can't just pass laws because you're religiously offended by something unless you can show another damn good reason for it. The reason for this is to prevent religious tyranny, with America's founding father's knowing of the tyranny of Cromwell's Britain and even some of the early Christian colonies in the new world (ie pilgrims ostensibly fleeing Britain for religious freedom and immediately establishing what amounted to a religious dictatorship.) Anyway, when Ersi complains of a "gay lobby" it tends to provoke laughter on my end because Republican Party (the majority party in congress) and the religious lobby are often one in the same.

 Bel, I understand your reasoning for moving this argument to the gay marriage thread, but I though it better to answer the arguments in the same thread they originated in.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-06-08, 01:39:07
Is the Chicago PD keeping up with tradition?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-06-08, 02:05:01
Sure! The next time the Democrats have their convention there, they'll crack a few heads of the rioters. Then the Dems will nominate someone who loses 49 out of 50 (...or is it 57? :) ) states in the general election!
Or did you refer to the gun violence, in one of the most strictly gun-controlled cities in America?

RJ, try to at least make a point, would you? :(
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-08, 02:51:44
(...or is it 57?  :)  )
But will that happen before or after a Republican tells us again how Paul Revere rode to warn the British? :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-06-08, 03:59:13
Oh yes, let's do dismiss parents' reports of their children's outcomes. The fact remains that what matters in parenting is not what's between a parent's legs but what's in their hearts and parenting skills.
You are the one about "what's between a parent's legs" and nothing else. My point is pretty simple, the study fails to define and measure anything. Specifically, it fails to define e.g. "parent" and fails to measure anything relevant to children. It's irrelevant to children because it's adults talking about children in a survey, it's not children's health records.

Instead of parent, they apparently have anyone who fosters a child. They don't even define same-sex couples, because they let people self-report "homosexual, bisexual, other". Now, what's that "other," one might ask. And the results are tampered with the concept of stigma. Nothing in the report is in your favour.

That's right, it's the family environment that determines a child's outcome, not what the family consists of.

There's plenty of the data, Belfrager. It's just that the analysis and results of it is contrary to what some people would hope for.  Multiple studies show this and some do include the adult children raised by same-sex couples.
But you did not cite a study that proves this. You cited a report that says that scientific studies cite each other. This by itself says nothing.

Anyway, when Ersi complains of a "gay lobby" it tends to provoke laughter on my end because Republican Party (the majority party in congress) and the religious lobby are often one in the same.
So for you everything that helps you bash Republicans is good. And vice versa: if there's any element in it that implies bashing Republicans, it's good. That's a perfect mirror image of Oakdale.

For me it's a matter that can be analysed rationally. Like this:

1. "Same-sex marriage" results in a biological impossibility where no children can be born.
2. We have legalised it anyway and we get to hear in the news and so-called science how this makes no difference, even though it makes absolutely no sense, because it denies #1.
3. Therefore, there's a gay lobby. Unless you think that you don't need a lobby to institute laws that (a) make no sense and (b) favour a narrow percentage of population while (c) brainwashing many to believe as if it were good for everyone.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-08, 04:36:37
1. "Same-sex marriage" results in a biological impossibility where no children can be born.
So what? There are plenty of heterosexual marriages in which children being born is a biological impossibility, at least without the treatments a lesbian couple would get. Will you tell the man with a low sperm count and his fiancé with a problem her ovaries they shouldn't legally be allowed to marry? How about an elderly couple?

We've moved long past the stage in which having children is the only reason for marriage. This isn't the middle ages when you found a wife for the main purpose of making babies with her to later use as field hands. Far from being a rational argument, this requirement that a couple be fertile to qualify for marriage is something of an anachronism in a technological, industrialized world.
3. Therefore, there's a gay lobby. Unless you think that you don't need a lobby to institute laws that favour a narrow percentage of population while brainwashing many to believe as if it were good for everyone.
At what point did I say there wasn't? Every group under the sun has lobbyists in Washington. "X lobby" implies corruption and coercion, but in practice it means nothing. In America if you don't have a lobby, your cause will lose. In it's simplest form, a lobby talks to senators and representatives to persuade them to the cause. The problem comes in if gifts and favors enters the conversation.  What I say is that the "gay lobby" , in America, is laughably small compared to the Christian one and they give gifts and favors to the GOP big time.

But you say I bash Republicans. This the party that just nominated Donald Trump.  There's nothing I can say or do that makes them look worse than they do to themselves. ;)

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-08, 09:26:06
Oh and  here's  (http://journalistsresource.org/studies/society/gender-society/same-sex-marriage-children-well-being-research-roundup) links to a number studies. The children of same sex marriage are fine. There's no data to suggest otherwise. You'll note that a study from 2013 does indicate that before same-sex marriage became legal, it did provide a stresser. This begs the question  about if the Right's zeal to "think of the children" is the very thing that has the potential to hurt them.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-06-08, 13:15:26
1. "Same-sex marriage" results in a biological impossibility where no children can be born.
So what?
So you have laid aside rationality, sense of reality and science. Studies you link to demonstrate clearly that you have no idea what was being studied.

We've moved long past the stage in which having children is the only reason for marriage.
We've moved long past the stage in which there's any reason for marriage. Half of children are born outside marriages and most "couples" (such as couples for a month or, more realistically, a night) don't get married. People see marriage as an unnecessary burden or formality, not a right. Only queer lobby claims it's a universal right, except that they are inconsistent when they exclude for example inter-generational marriage and interspecies marriage from their agenda. But who would expect square-circlers to be consistent anyway.

3. Therefore, there's a gay lobby. Unless you think that you don't need a lobby to institute laws that favour a narrow percentage of population while brainwashing many to believe as if it were good for everyone.
At what point did I say there wasn't?
Queer lobby is the only explanation for a concept like "same-sex marriage". It doesn't have common sense or biology on its side. It has nothing going for it besides lobby, propaganda, brainwashing, sheer insanity.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2016-06-09, 10:36:55
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.explosm.net%2Fcomics%2FDave%2Fjealous.png&hash=71fa46f0cc8a541ff6035d6c0506e6a2" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://files.explosm.net/comics/Dave/jealous.png) (http://explosm.net/comics/3670/)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-06-09, 11:03:09
It is implicit in the ten commandments: Thou shalt not commit adultery. This in the light of Mark 10 (...a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh... Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her... And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.) covers it exhaustively - assuming that the bolded words have a meaning. In the modern world, they don't.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2016-06-09, 12:34:27
It is implicit in the ten commandments: Thou shalt not commit adultery.
I thought you liked to quote Leviticus, which is very specific (20:10)
Quote
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
King James, just for kicks.

Any man having sex with a wife married to someone else than him, and the wife, should be killed. Any woman having sex with a wife or man having sex with a husband, or any woman having sex with a husband (unless she herself is married with someone else, in which case death does apply) will get off scot-free.

Any man having sex with a woman in such a manner that death does not occur was expected to marry the woman in question. Failure to do so did not seem to be fatal.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-06-09, 13:31:53
It is implicit in the ten commandments: Thou shalt not commit adultery.
I thought you liked to quote Leviticus, which is very specific (20:10)
Quote
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
King James, just for kicks.

Any man having sex with a wife married to someone else than him, and the wife, should be killed. Any woman having sex with a wife or man having sex with a husband, or any woman having sex with a husband (unless she herself is married with someone else, in which case death does apply) will get off scot-free.
Nobody gets off scot-free: "...the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

Any man having sex with a woman in such a manner that death does not occur was expected to marry the woman in question. Failure to do so did not seem to be fatal.
That's Deuteronomy, not Leviticus. Deuteronomy 22:29, "Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days." Fifty shekels, not scot-free.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-06-09, 14:04:37
I think jax's point is that Leviticus does not address those three cases.
(Do such things go on only in the Americas?)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2016-06-09, 14:20:25
America's the continent where King James wrote the Hebrew Bible.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-06-09, 14:24:26
I think jax's point, if any, was on the cartoon level.

We should not talk about Law of Moses on the literal level. Christians are supposed to be free of the law. Modern society takes this to be a license to do and say whatever they please without any responsibility, i.e. they disregard NT along with the OT.

Only American Bible Belt neighbourhood asserts literal OT a la Sharia. In this sense I understand where Sang is coming from.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2016-06-09, 14:32:18
Nobody gets off scot-free: "...the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."
Sure, the adulterer, that is any man having sex with a married/taken woman (not his own) and the adulteress, that is the married woman in question, will be delifed. But you have clearly not gone through the cases carefully:

Woman, having sex with a married woman: Scot-free
Man, having sex with a married man: Scot-free
Woman, not herself taken and having sex with a married man: Scot-free

Man, having sex with a woman not taken: Unkilled
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-06-09, 14:58:12
But you have clearly not gone through the cases carefully:

Woman, having sex with a married woman: Scot-free
Man, having sex with a married man: Scot-free
Woman, not herself taken and having sex with a married man: Scot-free
These cases got covered in my discussion with Frenzie a little while ago in this thread, starting roughly here (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=230.msg62072#msg62072).


Man, having sex with a woman not taken: Unkilled
Unkilled, but not scot-free. There's a consistent recognition of sanctity of marriage in the Bible and there are regulations for all kinds of failure to uphold it, including your kinds. Compare this with modern Western legal lack of definition of marriage so that some people talk about it in very queer ways while keeping a straight face.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-09, 16:43:00
There's a consistent recognition of sanctity of marriage in the Bible and there are regulations for all kinds of failure to uphold it, including your kinds.
Which means zero in a secular republic such as the United States. In fact, that reasoning would separation of church and state, insta-unconstitutional. I reiterate that marriage is not necessarily a religious ceremony at all.

Each religion is free to have it's own rules about who they can conduct the ceremony for, but rightfully doesn't have the authority to impose its rules on the entire nation because they find some offense. For instance, a fundamentalist church does have the right to refuse to marry two adulterers together on religious grounds, but not the right to prevent them from going to a different church or a judge to get married. Likewise if two men or women want to get married, except the Bible actually seems to care more about adultery then homosexuality. On a wide scale in the US, this exactly what the fundamentalist tried to do - impose their view of who's allowed to get married via amendments to the state constitutions and even made noise about adding it the Federal constitution, in a move of almost sublime idiocy. It's as if they said "We not only refuse to marry you together, we'll make sure no one else can either!" The sad part for them is that in having this attitude, the facilitated the very thing they sought to prevent far more than the "queer lobby" ever did or ever could hope to since same-sex marriage was already illegal.

Of course, when the fundies lost, they immediately tried to make themselves out to be the victims. The bully that finally finds himself hit back is the victim.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-06-09, 17:22:45
Interesting. In this side of the Equator, it's the other way around. The "LGBT lobby" wants to dictate what the religious movements are allowed to preach and what they cannot refuse to bless (for whatever reasons, right or wrong). Gay partnership (or "marriage", whatever) is legal for a long time, but it doesn't seem enough for them. Nobody can hurt their feelings.
There seems to be a big difference between gay lobbies and between fundie lobbies in America and anywhere else.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-06-09, 18:08:13
@Barulheira The same thing applies over here. The queer lobby wields the power that inquisition had in the middle ages. They don't quite burn people at the stake, but they depose priests and bishops, they remove professors and dictate what kids must learn in kindergarten.... The metaphoric crucifixion these days.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-06-09, 19:31:15
Christians are supposed to be free of the law.
Just because Jesus forgives a wrongful behavior doesn't mean the behavior isn't still wrong. In other words, like Hell they are.

Modern society takes this to be a license to do and say whatever they please without any responsibility, i.e. they disregard NT along with the OT.
My society is and always has been deeply pagan. Don't be fooled by a silly bit of Christian veneer imposed by Charlemagne at the penalty of death. Remember, he showed he was serious by executing thousands who refused all in one fell swoop. (Nowadays we would call it genocide.) Why should we proud Germanic tribes care for some stupid Middle Eastern sacrificial cult? Of course we ignore it. To do otherwise would be to have no self-respect and to lose all sense of dignity.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2016-06-09, 20:06:03
sanctity of marriage in the Bible
The sanctity of property rather. It shows a preoccupation with purity of essence, anything that dilutes the society, particularly any form of foreign culture, is harshly punished.

To take the Leviticus verse you were quoting: If you rape a taken woman that will be punished with death for you and death for the raped woman as well, unless she were in the countryside, and thus helpless.

If the raped woman is not also a taken woman, then that can be solved with a fine and you having to marry the raped girl.

If the woman in question is loot, then there is no punishment involved at all. She's your for the taking.

This isn't about sanctity of marriage, this is about the necessity of control. This is an aggressive culture with aggressive neighbours, this is kill or be killed, control or be controlled. You are right that love has nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-06-09, 20:40:49
sanctity of marriage in the Bible
The sanctity of property rather.
Good point, Jax.

BTW, the Bible was written by humans. As we know humans have their own motives if they do something...
Furthermore for example, the neanderthals had another world outlook than most people today.

As for sanctity - did anyone saw a Bible signed by God?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-09, 23:09:13
sanctity of marriage in the Bible
The sanctity of property rather.
Good point, Jax.

BTW, the Bible was written by humans. As we know humans have their own motives if they do something...
Furthermore for example, the neanderthals had another world outlook than most people today.

As for sanctity - did anyone saw a Bible signed by God?
Stupidity spreads as fire.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2016-06-10, 06:04:22
Since the toilet use demographics of certain inland US states is what truly matters in the Americas, I moved to Eurafrica (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=311.msg62521#msg62521) for a response.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-06-10, 08:39:33
My society is and always has been deeply pagan.
Show me a pagan cult that shares the modern non-definition of marriage. I say pagans are much closer to the Bible's understanding of marriage, anytime anywhere, even in Hellenic Greek and Classical Rome.

The concept of so-called traditional marriage is not merely traditional, but universal. There's natural law behind the concept, not merely this or that book. Modern society's disrespect for marriage is unique in world history.

The sanctity of property rather. It shows a preoccupation with purity of essence, anything that dilutes the society, particularly any form of foreign culture, is harshly punished.

To take the Leviticus verse you were quoting: If you rape a taken woman that will be punished with death for you and death for the raped woman as well, unless she were in the countryside, and thus helpless.

If the raped woman is not also a taken woman, then that can be solved with a fine and you having to marry the raped girl.

If the woman in question is loot, then there is no punishment involved at all. She's your for the taking.

This isn't about sanctity of marriage, this is about the necessity of control. This is an aggressive culture with aggressive neighbours, this is kill or be killed, control or be controlled. You are right that love has nothing to do with it.
Whereas continuity of society has everything to do with it. Marriage is not a private property. It's a social duty. It was expected that you show some responsibility when you take it on. That's why it's not everybody's right. You have to grow up and become man first (man in the meaningful sense, not as in non-sense). Just like to drive a car you have to pass some requirements.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2016-06-10, 17:28:31
Furthermore for example, the neanderthals had another world outlook than most people today.
Have you been reading Neanderthal literature?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-11, 12:26:58
Furthermore for example, the neanderthals had another world outlook than most people today.
Have you been reading Neanderthal literature?
I do it every other day by reading your posts, fascinating. :)
It remembers me that I should teach you how to quote me correctly... bah, it is not worth while.

As for Krake's quote about Neanderthals, indeed they had a completely different world outlook and yet evidence that they believed in the immortality of the soul (or life after death) it's present in their tombs by vestiges of flowers. They weren't atheists for sure.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-11, 16:51:36
Show me a pagan cult that shares the modern non-definition of marriage.

While religions of the ancient world were 'cults' and the fact the same-sex couples being able to marry does not marriage does not have a definition,  evidence from the ancient world  (http://www.randomhistory.com/history-of-gay-marriage.html) seems to indict that there was indeed same-sex marriage. Perhaps it's the Abrahamic religions that are the anomaly.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2016-06-11, 17:41:07
As for Krake's quote about Neanderthals, indeed they had a completely different world outlook and yet evidence that they believed in the immortality of the soul (or life after death) it's present in their tombs by vestiges of flowers. They weren't atheists for sure.
They weren't advanced enough to be atheists. :D
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-06-11, 18:27:26
...  evidence from the ancient world  (http://www.randomhistory.com/history-of-gay-marriage.html) seems to indict that there was indeed same-sex marriage. Perhaps it's the Abrahamic religions that are the anomaly.
This is only evidence for that the researcher in question has no clue what marriage is. In fact, it's crucial for him to have no clue because otherwise he would be forced to a different conclusion.

Yes, there were prominent same-sex relationships in the ancient world, but not a single marriage.

And it's funny how queer lobbyists cannot get their story straight. Some say that Paul displays in the NT absolute ignorance of the modern "committed" and "loving" same-sex "partnerships" while others, like you, say that same-sex marriages have existed all along since Ancient Egypt and only Christianity deviates from this alleged norm.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-11, 21:38:27
The concept of marriage was created by the Catholic Church around the twelve century as a religious ceremony. Before that different sex unions were called "natural" unions.
Society never recognized same sex unions, not even at the decadence of Rome.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-06-12, 08:23:37
The concept of marriage was created by the Catholic Church around the twelve century as a religious ceremony.
I think you mean the Catholic Church created it as a church sacrament. Because surely everybody had a good idea of marriage as a concept before that.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-12, 12:39:40
I think you mean the Catholic Church created it as a church sacrament.
I said as a religious ceremony, it's the same thing but yes a church sacrament it's more precise and correct.

Before, marriages were said to be "de natura", with the sense of being from man's nature to marry a woman and have children but made without any specific God's blessing.
I'm not sure but I believe that religious marriages over ruled previous rights from natural marriages what generated a lot of confusion and endless battling as normal at the time.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-12, 14:46:43
This is only evidence for that the researcher in question has no clue what marriage is.
Did you that just because somebody has a disagreement with you about what marriage is, it's doesn't mean he doesn't know what it is. You claim only opposite sex is needed for the continuation of society. What makes you think the gay people would be having all these children anyway?
man's nature to marry a woman and have children
Which we know it's against nature for some people to marriage the opposite sex. The fact is that people are born into a sexual orientation, which is passed down from the mother's side of the family.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-06-12, 17:46:33
This is only evidence for that the researcher in question has no clue what marriage is.
Did you that just because somebody has a disagreement with you about what marriage is, it's doesn't mean he doesn't know what it is.
From your link:
Quote
Evidence exists that same-sex marriages were tolerated in parts of Mesopotamia and ancient Egypt. Artifacts from Egypt, for example, show that same-sex relationships....
Here marriage is conflated with relationships. Surely you can tell the difference between a marriage and a relationship. The author of the article doesn't. Also, "tolerated" is not the same as "recognised" and even when it says "recognised", it's not the same as having a moral justification. A little further:
Quote
In actuality, same-sex marital practices and rituals are less known in Egypt compared to Mesopotamia, where documents exist for a variety of marital practices, including male lovers of kings and polyandry.
Here "male lovers" are equated with marriage. The author is saying that you are married to your lovers. Brilliant.

This is not just a disagreement between me and this article. It's objective proof that the article has not defined its topic.

You claim only opposite sex is needed for the continuation of society. What makes you think the gay people would be having all these children anyway?
Well, do you mean you disagree that two-sex species need both of the sexes in order to reproduce? If you disagree, then how did you get past fifth grade? Or didn't you?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-06-12, 22:29:44
You're wasting your time, ersi: A hedonist is impervious to all argument. (Did we really need the term "Masochism"? Not before Sadists converted most hedonists... :)  Sophism, given a bad name! Who'd-a thunk it?)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-06-12, 22:43:39
Which we know it's against nature for some people to marriage the opposite sex.
Nope, it's against their nature, not against Nature. The same way some people satisfies their sexual needs with animals.
If you accept your own aberrations, you'll have to accept other's. So much representative as yours.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-13, 17:54:26
Well, do you mean you disagree that two-sex species need both of the sexes in order to reproduce?
Gay people exist, always have existed, preventing them from marrying won't change this or cause them to reproduce. Funny now allowing gays to marry is suddenly an existential threat to society when they've been living in domestic arrangements this whole freaking time and we're talking thousands of years at this point. That's with or without legal sanction or society's approval. All the arguments along your lines and philosophy about what's "natural" flies in the face of nature and what's actually been happening.
The same way some people satisfies their sexual needs with animals.
No. It has not been shown that people are born into that. In gay people, certain brain structures have more in common with members of the opposite sex than with their own sex. The science is in. You guys are the perverts throwing things like this in every time and the two are.
A hedonist is impervious to all argument.
Weird how this "hedonist" is the one arguing to put gays in nice domestic arrangements instead of the stereotypical gay lifestyle :left: Do you remember the conservative argument for gay marriage that I showed you before. The LGBT have been arguing for the very opposite of hedonism.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2016-06-20, 16:41:19
Speaking of what's going on in America...
http://www.dummies.com/trump (http://www.dummies.com/trump)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-06-20, 17:17:42
Not found?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-07-09, 01:28:33
The Washington Post has deicovered that the longer in what passes for a police in the ex-colonies the more physical and dangerous they get. There is also a feeling that they are not being trained properly and far too quick to be violent or just pump you with lead too quickly. A normal country wouldn't put up with the part police state attitude.  If you are stopped or held and black citizen you are on a sticky wicket.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-07-17, 11:02:30
Meanwhile in Tennessee, Ken Ham's Ark Park has successfully been completed and opened to the public. It also received its first celeb visitor (https://answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/2016/07/08/bill-nye-visits-ark-encounter/). No official numbers available on other visitors.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-07-17, 14:02:17
An Ark Park? that's probably just a kind of zoo indoors that doesn't even floats.
A Purgatory Park would be funnier.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-07-17, 15:17:04
Ken Ham's Ark Park, officially Ark Encounter, is a totally serious no-joke entreprise, a major investment of $100 million in private donations. The result is a full-size replica of the famous historical Ark of Noah, in Ken Ham's own words.

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-07-17, 15:40:18
Ken Ham's Ark Park, officially Ark Encounter, is a totally serious no-joke entreprise, a major investment of $100 million in private donations. The result is a full-size replica of the famous historical Ark of Noah, in Ken Ham's own words.
100 millions in private donations for such a thing... that people have too much money.
BTW, the thing is ugly. Since it's built with wood let's hope it burns soon.

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-07-17, 15:57:37
BTW, the thing is ugly. Since it's built with wood let's hope it burns soon.
Wouldn't you rather wish for a second deluge and see if the ark works?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-07-17, 16:00:16
BTW, the thing is ugly. Since it's built with wood let's hope it burns soon.
Wouldn't you rather wish for a second deluge and see if the ark works?
Brilliant idea.  :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-07-17, 16:09:19
 7 officers shot; 3 feared dead in Baton Rouge  (http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/17/us/baton-route-police-shooting/index.html?adkey=bn). This is where Alton Sterling was shot by cops, who claimed he was reaching for a gun.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-07-17, 21:45:19
When policemen are nothing but executioners dressed in uniforms, they become easy targets. Simple as that.

Another thing, does Baton Rouge means what it suggests, simply red lipstick? What a name for a town...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-07-18, 01:40:15
Simple as that.
Your subtlety overwhelms me! :) (Do you and Howie share the "TV room" in the home...?)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-07-18, 15:12:50
As it turns out, this time the shooter wasn't hunting cops. The officers were called in for gunfire.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-08-07, 09:49:11
In America, they're destroying the libraries.

http://ww2.kqed.org/mindshift/2016/07/31/launching-a-makerspace-lessons-learned-from-a-transformed-school-library/
Quote
Luhtala is blessed with a big library, but for most of her career it has been dominated by large bookshelves. Over time, Luhtala has pared down her collection as she increased the digital reading material the library offers, but in order to make room for a makerspace she cleared out 7,000 books. She might not have had the courage to make such a drastic change if she hadn't had the firm support, and indeed push, from her principal to create a makerspace. Luhtala kept most of her fiction and donated a lot of the nonfiction, which kids are now mostly accessing digitally anyway (emphasis mine).

Call me crazy, but a "makerspace" that basically consists of stuff you can do at home hardly seems useful enough to destroy a library. Just repurpose a spare (class)room or computer room or something.[1] In a workshop I expect to be able to (learn) wood and metal working with lathes and millers, bandsaws, maybe soldering, sewing, etc. Stuff you can't do at home. I mean, even a mini-lathe is going to set you back at least €600, which is awful steep for something you'll probably never use. A simple soldering iron meanwhile is going to cost you €10. You can afford to try it a few times and then ignore it if it isn't your thing.

When I was reading The Case for Books (https://www.librarything.com/work/8954203/book/122562416) it spoke of a caricature of crazy librarians destroying books to put them on microfilm, but in this case the caricature seems to have taken on organic substance. :( I'll just quote the only comment in full to finish:

Quote from: kryten8
This might be the saddest article I have read in a long time, and a great example of why I am skeptical of the huge STEM push we are getting; why did all of this have to happen at the expense of books and reading? You had a space that was dedicated to reading, and now that part of the library is an afterthought. The kids will notice and respond to that. If the principal had wanted a maker space so badly, he/she should have dedicated some other space to the idea.
Yes, you can make do with less computers in the computer rooms because everyone's got laptops now. The space dedicated to computers in the 1990s and 2000s can be reconfigured to be more dynamic in nature in the 2010s.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-08-07, 11:49:06
Call me crazy, but a "makerspace" that basically consists of stuff you can do at home hardly seems useful enough to destroy a library. Just repurpose a spare (class)room or computer room or something.
Yes, it's craziness to destroy a library for this purpose, but a "makerspace" has its purpose in school, outside home. You see, most parents go to work in order to be able to afford to raise a child. Going to work takes time, all day mostly, so in this modern society hardly any parent actually raises their own children. This is where school must make up for missing parenthood.

So, a "makerspace" should be part of normal school curriculum, a "handicraft" class or something like that. School should not be choosing between a library and a makerspace. School must have both. This is what they had when I went to school. In addition, my school had a museum, a chemistry lab, a biology collection, sports field and a garden too. Schools should have all that and more. My school was a village public school, not a privately sponsored city school.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-08-07, 13:08:13
So, a "makerspace" should be part of normal school curriculum, a "handicraft" class or something like that.
Oh, I agree. It was when I went to school. We had a library, a (work)shop and an arts & crafts space (or whatever you want to call it). I think a makerspace also implies some electronics/Lego Mindstorms kind of stuff, but I guess I'm a few years too old for that. I was certainly young enough when Mindstorms first came out, but schools don't go for that kind of thing until a few years later. We did do some electronics and logical circuits and the like in physics of course, a practical application of the theory in the same way you apply the theory of chemistry and biology. But ultimately if you are going to make cuts, I think cutting into things you can't easily and cheaply have at home (like a workshop or a library) is far worse than cutting into the kind of arts & crafts that you can at least in theory easily and cheaply do at home.

The argument that people should raise their children and that school isn't for raising children is patently absurd. Children spend the majority of their time in school, so how exactly are parents supposed to raise their children while they're at work and the kids at school? Exactly.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-08-07, 14:07:44
The argument that people should raise their children and that school isn't for raising children is patently absurd.
Nope.
Children spend the majority of their time in school, so how exactly are parents supposed to raise their children while they're at work and the kids at school?
Work less, live more.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-08-07, 15:12:25
Children spend the majority of their time in school, so how exactly are parents supposed to raise their children while they're at work and the kids at school?
Work less, live more.
This is the way of life I miss in good old medieval times: Parents worked in the field, growing the food for the family, and children, as soon as they were old enough to understand orders and had the capacity to coordinate their thought with their movement, worked alongside with them. This way the children learned to grow food by observing their parents, by following orders of parents, and by directly contributing to putting their own food on their own table, all the while being under parental supervision.

Putting food on your table is the only skill people really need and it worked naturally all by itself back then, the way the family structure and way of life had been instituted. Why this wonderful synergy had to be broken, I have no idea, but now it's irreversibly broken. Now everybody must engage in some utterly meaningless activity to earn money and then buy food. The earnings must be sufficient if you want to afford what you need, but in order to afford what you need you have to do and earn what you really don't need, which takes away family time. If you still have time left after work, you need that time to rest from all the meaninglessness, so you cannot spend it properly with the family anyway.

In medieval times, every addition to family was welcome, because it meant an additional contribution to the work force, and work simply meant feeding yourself and yours. Work and life were the same thing back then.

Your maxim may be applicable only in the modern world where work and life are different things. But the modern world is self-contradictory. In the modern world, if you want to work less, you have to have no family, so that you don't need to worry for so many people and you don't need to earn so much, but then what kind of life would that be? What would such life consist of?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-08-07, 15:33:26
The argument that people should raise their children and that school isn't for raising children is patently absurd.
Nope.
Children spend the majority of their time in school, so how exactly are parents supposed to raise their children while they're at work and the kids at school?
Work less, live more.
I'm not talking about how it should be, I'm saying how it is. The claim is that schools (where kids legally have to spend 6-8 hours a day) aren't for raising children. But if kids spend half of their waking hours at school, it'd be awful negligent to say the least if the only raising they got was outside of school. It's flat-out reality denial.

I'm not opposed to home-schooling. I'm in favor of universal basic income. But I'm not talking about ideals. What I'm talking about is those that say it's not teacher's responsibility. For better or worse, given the conditions of present-day society, it is.

(And besides, it's work less, go hungry/homeless.)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-08-07, 15:46:38
But the modern world is self-contradictory. In the modern world, if you want to work less, you have to have no family, so that you don't need to worry for so many people and you don't need to earn so much, but then what kind of life would that be? What would such life consist of?
Not exactly, what the modern world does is to convince people that they need to have things in order to be something. To buy as a sine qua non condition to exist.

People don't need all that stuff they work for, people don't need the lifestyle the media presents them as the only way to have a life, what people need is to redefine themselves their priorities and get rid of the be productive forever nightmare.

If someone what he wants is to have a five or six children family he just need to leave the urban modern lifestyle. Even in Europe there's still plenty of space for the pursuit of happiness.

More and more people are refusing to turn into work slaves, slaves without any meaningful life. There's a growing movement going on and soon it will be unstoppable.
Then, it's when the massacres will begin, consumerism showing it's real nature.

P.S. to those slow to understand evidence, by consumerism real nature I mean the domination by insect like elites.
The same elites that prohibits smoke. There's noting as fumigation to kill insects.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-08-10, 18:43:39
I thought this was quite interesting.

Contagion in Mass Killings and School Shootings
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0117259
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-08-11, 05:54:34
"How to play silly games with statistics that you don't understand" would have been a better title... And, golly, look at the wee p value! :)
"Contagion" -- really? Ever heard of the Epidemiologist's Fallacy?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-08-11, 07:39:28
No, but that sounds like a simple case of misattribution. The authors did happen to say this.
Quote
While our analysis was initially inspired by the hypothesis that mass media attention given to sensational violent events may promote ideation in vulnerable individuals, in practice what our analysis tests is whether or not temporal patterns in the data indicate evidence for contagion, by whatever means.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-08-11, 10:14:24
Quote
Several past studies have found that media reports of suicides and homicides appear to subsequently increase the incidence of similar events in the community, apparently due to the coverage planting the seeds of ideation in at-risk individuals to commit similar acts.
So, according to the studies there is a high risk for contamination through media coverage.
This implies (even so the authors don't dare to tell it directly) that keeping those homicides as secret as possible (no media coverage at all) will substantially reduce the risk of 'contamination'.
This is a nice catch IMHO.
In a wealthy society where almost 3 out of 100 people have a criminal record something is going utterly wrong.
Instead of analysing and pointing the finger at the real causes, the authors prefer a diversionary tactic by blaming the media first. :)
Some questions came to my mind:
Misconduct among police officers is also mainly a result of media coverage?   
What next? Criminal gene propagating among people of low income social classes?
How about countries with higher rates of homicides? Are those higher rates the result of more media coverage than in the USA?
Why doesn't media coverage 'infect' people equally in different countries?

Quote
The authors have no support or funding to report.
Wonder how the authors have met each other? By coincidence on Facebook?
Are such studies part of their spare time hobby?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-08-11, 14:00:30
This implies (even so the authors don't dare to tell it directly) that keeping those homicides as secret as possible (no media coverage at all) will substantially reduce the risk of 'contamination'.
This is a nice catch IMHO.
It does, but not in the sense that relevant facts should be kept quiet. It implies something more along the lines of no photos of the perpetrators, possibly no names or at least no full names (like suspects), no details about the lives of the terrorists and no interviews with their family members. More like train or plane disasters, less like, well, terrorist attacks. Who are the victims, was the aid effective, what were the (security) mistakes that led to this terrible outcome. In brief, no terror porn.[1] That point of view is defended in Le Monde (http://www.lemonde.fr/actualite-medias/article/2016/07/27/des-medias-decident-de-ne-plus-publier-les-portraits-des-auteurs-d-attentats_4975341_3236.html), among others. Now I have some doubts as to the actual efficacy such leftist self-sensorship. The problem and solution with regard to radicalizing Muslims seems to be much more distinctly pinpointed by Ayaan Hirsi Ali. But at the same time, many terrorists are indeed looking for their fifteen minutes of fame, especially the type of American high school shooter the linked paper is largely about.
Interestingly, this is how suicides are reported around these parts.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-08-11, 15:34:12
My reply was referring to homicides in general.
However it applies even to terrorist attacks we witness lately in Europe.
Such attacks don't occur out of the blue moon. There is a causality between the proclaimed 'war on terror' aka regime changes through military force (disguised geostrategic power struggle and struggle to have control over natural ressources) and what is happening in front of our doorsteps. Since this war was started hundred of thousands if not millions of people had to die for it.
We (the West) have actively contributed to the radicalization and destabilization of parts of the world. Bomb Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya for regime changes and pipelines which might serve our future interests. Stir up a bloody civil war in Syria, fought and financed by mercenaries financed from abroad.
Quote
Our friends and allies funded ISIS
What Wesley Clark omits to mention is the role of the USA, starting with the radicalization of 'freedom fighters' in Afghanistan, the organized death squads in Iraq, and the support for 'moderate' head choppers in Syria. I could add more but this should suffice for the broad picture.
BTW,
Quote
Blair was warned by British intelligence that terrorism would "increase in the event of war, reflecting intensified anti-U.S./anti-Western sentiment in the Muslim world, including among Muslim communities in the West." (source (https://theintercept.com/2016/07/06/chilcot-report-tony-blair-told-george-w-bush-if-we-win-quickly-everyone-will-be-our-friend/))

So IMHO, blaming the media is hypocritical to say the least.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-08-11, 17:08:08
Why do non-Americans have so little volition in your worldview? :P
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-08-11, 18:40:01
If I mean "the West" I mean non-Americans as well - not only but mainly Western Europe.
While the USA due its military force and economic leverage is the leading part (with the according responsabilities) its Western allies (Germany and France included) aren't exempted neither of complicity nor of  responsabilities.
After all Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya have been joint 'humanitarian interventions' and so is now Syria.
Each one tries to safeguard the part of cake that might be left behind...

Why so much hypocrisy? Probably because otherwise it would smell and it wouldn't be a pleasant smell...

BTW, exclusively for you. It's a docu from ARTE I've posted in the past but I repost now for the case you missed it... :P

  in French
  in German (better video quality)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-08-11, 19:15:12
And both annoyingly dub over e.g. the English voice (even if the German subtitles the French). I do kind of despise German/French TV that way. :P

I've downloaded it, meaning I might end up watching it someday. Reading things is simple. Watching things is very difficult. I don't like it much. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2016-08-12, 18:01:53
American Exceptionalism:
(Hacked from somebody's site)
"Signs of supposed progress in expressions of American violence often disguise profound continuities. For example: The era of highly visible public lynchings, which is estimated to have claimed some 5,000 lives, has passed. Yet since then we have moved on to an institutionalized death penalty regime, wherein states that previously had the highest numbers of lynchings now have the greatest numbers of black people on death row. Both per capita and in raw numbers, America's prisons warehouse more human beings than any other country on the planet, and its police demonstrate a clear pattern of racial bias in killing their fellow citizens at a rate stratospherically higher than that of any of its supposed peer nations. U.S. soldiers are deployed in some 135 countries, and the number of troops actually engaged in combat is almost certainly much higher than authorities are willing to admit." :o
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-08-12, 21:03:56
I hope you don't mind Jim. Here is the full article (http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/10/the-american-soul-is-a-murderous-soul-guns-violence-second-amendment-trump/).

Quote
... the number of troops actually engaged in combat is almost certainly much higher than authorities are willing to admit.
Possible but not strictly necessary.
In combat zones like Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria the number of mercenaries contracted through private firms outnumber the regular troops.
It's a catch of the Obama administration. Since those mercenaries are not part of the regular troops, casualties don't appear in any official statistics. As a result public opinion which is very sensitive for casualties abroad won't produce unnecessary headaches to the supreme commander.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-08-13, 10:33:46
It implies something more along the lines of no photos of the perpetrators, possibly no names or at least no full names (like suspects), no details about the lives of the terrorists and no interviews with their family members. More like train or plane disasters, less like, well, terrorist attacks. Who are the victims, was the aid effective, what were the (security) mistakes that led to this terrible outcome. In brief, no terror porn.[1] (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=230.575#fn1_1) That point of view is defended in Le Monde (http://www.lemonde.fr/actualite-medias/article/2016/07/27/des-medias-decident-de-ne-plus-publier-les-portraits-des-auteurs-d-attentats_4975341_3236.html), among others. Now I have some doubts as to the actual efficacy such leftist self-sensorship.
I don't consider it to be censorship and even less leftist. It's simple common sense tactics, you don't glorify your enemy.
Secondly, media at our days context are business and just business, it's not moral to win more money with terror porn.

The public opinion pressure must be in winning wars not in selling more newspapers.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2016-08-16, 16:00:41
I wonder if this photo of Osama sold more newspapers.
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.barenakedislam.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F05%2Fosama-bin-laden-dead-picture-photo.jpg&hash=eef700cbaa04c26fac78f4ed1cc8014d" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/osama-bin-laden-dead-picture-photo.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-08-20, 18:08:45
NASA research for all!

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-unveils-new-public-web-portal-for-research-results
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2016-08-21, 13:23:04
Something is reportedly going on in Rio de Janeiro these days.

What if we judged sexist sport coverage as an Olympic sport? (http://www.vox.com/2016/8/19/12551190/sexist-sport-coverage-olympics)

https://youtu.be/eUhf-Jyy1_Y
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-08-22, 00:33:27
On a wider note my country did a brilliant job being second in the medal table.  :yes:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-09-01, 17:18:39
Parliamentary coup impeachment in Brazil

Noam Chomsky sums it up: Brazil's President Dilma Rousseff "Impeached by a Gang of Thieves" (http://www.democracynow.org/2016/5/17/noam_chomsky_brazils_president_dilma_rousseff)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-09-01, 20:24:27
Spot on and the decision was a disgraceful farce.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2016-09-02, 09:27:35
The US is no longer cut off from Cuba (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/08/31/first-united-states-commercial-flight-cuba/89595932/)

Quote
First U.S. commercial flight in 5 decades lands in Cuba
  • SANTA CLARA, Cuba -- The flight from Fort Lauderdale to this city in central Cuba on Wednesday morning took only 51 minutes, but it represented a major step in ending decades of isolation between communist Cuba and the United States.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-09-02, 10:48:34
American credit rating stuff sounds really stupid.

http://twocents.lifehacker.com/good-money-habits-that-can-hurt-your-credit-1785962981
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-09-02, 11:02:20
The US is no longer cut off from Cuba (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/08/31/first-united-states-commercial-flight-cuba/89595932/)
In fact it never was since Guantánamo Bay theoretically at least, still belongs to Cuba.
I can't recall of a referendum taking place there. ;)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-09-02, 11:39:28
I can't recall of a referendum taking place there. ;)
After referendum it would belong to the United States, because only US soldiers inhabit the spot. But there's no legal basis for such referendum. The place belongs to Cuba, while US rents it "indefinitely". All other US bases over the world have similar rent contracts.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-09-02, 12:11:35
All other US bases over the world have similar rent contracts.
You mean all US military bases over the world are rented against the will of the respective countries, like Gitmo is?  :yikes:
BTW, $4,085 per year must be a hell of a bargain for such a beautiful place. (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Gitmo_Aerial.jpg)
If you rent a 322.917 square foot lodging in Munich, it's definitive more expensive.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-09-02, 12:23:19
You mean all US military bases over the world are rented against the will of the respective countries, like Gitmo is?
Nobody asks the people. The rent contracts are between governments. US obtained Gitmo quite long ago, 1903.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-09-02, 12:31:54
The rent contracts are between governments. US obtained Gitmo quite long ago, 1903.
And since the Cuban government has protested several times, even at the United Nations Human Rights Council, calling it illegally usurped territory.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-09-02, 12:45:46
The rent contracts are between governments. US obtained Gitmo quite long ago, 1903.
And since the Cuban government has protested several times, even at the United Nations Human Rights Council, calling it illegally usurped territory.
Yes, so it is, but this is how they see it, not how the contract sees it. They want to end the contract, but the contract provides no terms to end itself, so nothing to do about it. Occupation would be a way (like India did in Goa), but...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-09-02, 13:04:30
They want to end the contract, but the contract provides no terms to end itself, so nothing to do about it.
An imposed contract sealing a duty valid till the end of mankind on earth.
Just wonder how anybody with an IQ higher than that of an insect would call such a contract.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-09-02, 13:10:25
Just wonder how anybody with an IQ higher than that of an insect would call such a contract.
I looked it up, they call it actually a treaty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban%E2%80%93American_Treaty_of_Relations_(1903)

Currently, ending this thing is entirely in the hands of Obama. Before he got elected the first time, he promised to close Guantanamo (one of the two concrete promises he gave). He got a pre-emptive Nobel prize for this promise. This is his last chance to deliver.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-09-02, 20:17:55
Utterly scandalous to have a damn base in a foreign country that does not want it.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-09-02, 23:25:13
Occupation would be a way (like India did in Goa)
No, it isn't. The invasion and occupation of Goa, Damão and Diu by the Indian Union was immediately presented  by Portugal to the ONU and an unanimous resolution for the illegality was made as well as a deliberation for the immediate return of those possessions to our domination.

According all international laws such resolutions are still valid but the robbers, murderers, cowards, occupiers and son of a bitch have not yet been judged by the Haya International Court nor have devolved the possessions.

Anyway, you heard something about Goa. Estonians are getting very erudite these days.

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-09-03, 00:20:25
On a wider note my country did a brilliant job being second in the medal table.  :yes:
Well done indeed old fella. :cheers:

Good of your lot to do so well before the Scots break your union apart within the next half-decade.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-09-03, 04:46:43
Occupation would be a way (like India did in Goa)
No, it isn't. The invasion and occupation of Goa, Damão and Diu by the Indian Union was immediately presented  by Portugal to the ONU and an unanimous resolution for the illegality was made as well as a deliberation for the immediate return of those possessions to our domination.
I didn't say it was a legal way. It's a way that gets the job done, if one is scum.

You will never get Goa back. Just like Ukraine won't get Crimea back, no matter how many times the occupation and annexation is declared illegal. And Estonia won't get Ivangorod and Pechory back.

Anyway, you heard something about Goa. Estonians are getting very erudite these days.
Thanks, if this was a compliment. I keep looking if there's anything more to know.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-09-03, 06:15:48
Treaties are enforced only by war... There is no such thing as "The Law of Nations" beyond the goodwill of those nations.

Most nations have -mostly- goodwill towards others; but there's no way to make them, except war.

Of course, Europeans have "evolved" beyond this... :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-09-03, 08:29:07
The invasion and occupation of Goa, Damão and Diu by the Indian Union ...
And your protector simply let it happen? How comes that it wasn't a case for the NATO?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-09-03, 08:33:32
You will never get Goa back. Just like Ukraine won't get Crimea back, no matter how many times the occupation and annexation is declared illegal. And Estonia won't get Ivangorod and Pechory back.
The above list could be expanded endlessly depending on what nationalistic glasses one is wearing and depending on what century one picks up. E.g. - how about Lviv? Will the Ukraine hand it over to Poland?
As for Ivangorod and Pechory - how about Sweden claiming ownership?
The question is - would you really like to open Pandora's box?
In that case, your grandchildren (in case you have some) might never experience the age you are at now (~50+?)...
Keep in mind please that in case of a war with modern weapons smaller nations are at risk to get extinguished totally, no matter which alliances they'd embrace.
Namely, they will be sacrificed as cannon fodder first...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-09-03, 08:37:32
Of course, Europeans have "evolved" beyond this... :)
Nope, we didn't but common sense tells us (or at least I hope so) that we neither can afford wars nor can we afford to be dragged into wars by our friends and foes...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-09-03, 08:43:39
They were not NATO signatories... Plus, European colonial powers had ever and always thought they could do whatever they wanted, wherever they wanted...
Two World Wars wasn't enough to convince them, that they couldn't!
 I'd like to think you're right, Krake; but I know you're wrong: Europe is about to explode, again...
I hope my country (sorry, that we can't do otherwise...) stays out of it, this time.
We have our own problems.

I, myself, might do something... I'm old and tired! So, there's be no great loss; but perhaps a little gain, if I joined the fray...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-09-03, 09:08:18
They were not NATO signatories...
Are you sure?
I hope my country (sorry, that we can't do otherwise...) stays out of it, this time.
Don't you think that it's too late for your country to stay out? It's the main actor pouring gasoline into the fire...
I'm old and tired!
Despite of our different views - wish you all the best :cheers:  and have a nice time with your grandchildren  :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-09-03, 09:42:15
You will never get Goa back. Just like Ukraine won't get Crimea back, no matter how many times the occupation and annexation is declared illegal. And Estonia won't get Ivangorod and Pechory back.
The above list could be expanded endlessly depending on what nationalistic glasses one is wearing and depending on what century one picks up. E.g. - how about Lviv? Will the Ukraine hand it over to Poland?
As for Ivangorod and Pechory - how about Sweden claiming ownership?
The question is - would you really like to open Pandora's box?
Yes, the list could be extended, but it matters on what grounds one is doing it. If there are no criteria, then yes, it's a Pandora's box, but not if there are criteria.

Interrelationships of countries are determined by treaties and (geo)political facts. The independence of Estonia vis-a-vis Russia is determined by Treaty of Tartu (1920). It so happens that the treaty also determines the countries' borders, where Ivangorod and Pechory are assigned to Estonia. Inasmuch as Estonian politicians remain silent about this, they remain silent about Treaty of Tartu, and silent about Estonia's independence from Russia. Consequently they demonstrate themselves ignorant of how diplomacy works.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2016-09-03, 10:43:27
Treaties are enforced only by war... There is no such thing as "The Law of Nations" beyond the goodwill of those nations.

Most nations have -mostly- goodwill towards others; but there's no way to make them, except war.

Of course, Europeans have "evolved" beyond this... :)
Treaties were typically a consequence of war, and violence or the threat thereof is a central element of power, but treaties definitely weren't enforced by war, quite the opposite. 

A succession of treaties and congresses, the Peace of Westphalia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_sovereignty) onward, has led to both international law and the modern nation state in concert. 

Not only Europe has evolved, no party stay stationary. 
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-09-03, 10:47:49
Yes, the list could be extended, but it matters on what grounds one is doing it.
For sure it matters - which comes down to what nationalistic glasses one is wearing and depending on what century one picks up.
If there are no criteria, then yes, it's a Pandora's box, but not if there are criteria.
And who defines the criteria? Each one claims his own criteria as the right one.
The independence of Estonia vis-a-vis Russia is determined by Treaty of Tartu (1920).
May I remind you that since 1920 there was a world war...
By making revisionist claims, you are just trying to open Pandora's box. Good luck!
BTW, AFAIK your country doesn't have (until now at least) territoriale claims towards Russia.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-09-03, 11:01:21
If there are no criteria, then yes, it's a Pandora's box, but not if there are criteria.
And who defines the criteria? Each one claims his own criteria as the right one.
Hence you deny there are criteria.

By making revisionist claims, you are just trying to open Pandora's box. Good luck!
Since you have no criteria, you have also no ground for saying what/who is revisionist.

As for Treaty of Tartu, yes, there was war, but there's also the treaty. From Estonia's point of view, Estonia either is independent from Russia as per the treaty - or not at all, because there's no other signed agreement granting Estonia independence from Russia, i.e. it's a matter of life and death for Estonia. From Russia's point of view, it's not a matter of life and death whether Estonia is inside Russia's borders or outside, so their whining about the treaty is bully's whining.

Otherwise, I'd gladly favour going under Swedish empire again, but unfortunately Sweden and Russia have their own treaties, which they follow...

BTW, AFAIK your country doesn't have (until now at leas) territoriale claims towards Russia.
You know wrong. Estonia and Latvia had territorial claims against Russia until Merkel forced us to renounce the claims. Meaning, "friendly fire" from within EU forced us to formally renounce claims to independence. Thank you very much!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-09-03, 13:10:17
Ersi, trying to twist someone's words isn't exactly what we would call analytical skills. ;)
In most of our conversations you are desperately trying to do the first. :)

Hence you deny there are criteria.
I haven't denied criteria as such. What I'm pointing out is that you have your own criteria, Russians have their criteria, whereas third parties may consider their own criteria.
And your 'analytical' masturbation continues like this:
Since you have no criteria, you have also no ground for saying what/who is revisionist.
As for Treaty of Tartu, yes, there was war, but there's also the treaty.
May I refresh your memory a bit?
After WWII the Treaty of Tartu became spoilage and Estonia part of the Soviet Union (sealed up in Yalta).
1991 Estonia became independent and the Soviets recognized its independence (within Estonia's borders at that time).
You know wrong. Estonia and Latvia had territorial claims against Russia until Merkel forced us to renounce the claims.
Neither Merkel nor anybody else can 'force' you to do something. It's up to you to listen or not to an advise. All you have to do is to bear the respective consequences.
If they agree you can start instantly a war against Russia with US help. Saakashvili did it, why souldn't you.
Besides, normalizing relations with your eastern neighbor would primarily be to your own benefit.
However, your 'analytical' judgement would probably disagree. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-09-03, 13:21:36
Portugal is a founding member of NATO.
NATO means North Atlantic... not Indian Ocean...
Besides, the Indian Union was too much of a problem for Americans, English and others. The URSS vetoed any measures against India at the Security Council.

We know very well, since ever, the mentality of our "allies".

Thanks to the Portuguese presence, Goa was classified by Unesco as World Heritage.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-09-03, 16:18:51
Ersi, trying to twist someone's words isn't exactly what we would call analytical skills. ;)
Nobody is twisting your words. You are merely getting appropriate responses to your words when you twist reality.

Hence you deny there are criteria.
I haven't denied criteria as such. What I'm pointing out is that you have your own criteria, Russians have their criteria, whereas third parties may consider their own criteria.
I used the word first, so let me tell you what I meant, if it was not clear enough. Either the criteria are common or they don't exist. In any relationship it takes at least two to have it. You cannot have your own relationship, separate from your married partner. You have to have a common relationship in order to be married.

If you think everybody can have their own criteria, i.e. everybody can define and re-define by themselves what e.g. occupation, force, annexation, sovereignty, peace, etc. are, then you are twisting the word 'criteria' and clearly demonstrating you don't give a damn how diplomacy works or whether it works.

May I refresh your memory a bit?

After WWII the Treaty of Tartu became spoilage and Estonia part of the Soviet Union (sealed up in Yalta).

1991 Estonia became independent and the Soviets recognized its independence (within Estonia's borders at that time).
False on both accounts. But let's try to be charitable first and assume you are right.

If "sealed up in Yalta" is right, then this means certain nations have a right to obliterate other nations' sovereignty and independence without regard to the will of those other nations. And when this is so, then it follows that when these certain nations sign a paper to another nation saying "we recognise your sovereignty and independence", they cannot be taken seriously, inasmuch as they are nations who reserve for themselves a right to obliterate other nations' sovereignty and independence.

"Soviets recognized its independence..." Now, there are two kinds of recognition of independence. One is by treaty among neighbours including (or with reference to) a border agreement. Another is like sending a note "we recognise your declaration of independence", which can be sent as a friendly gesture to a newly-independent country half a globe away. Soviet Union did the latter to Estonia, not the former.

But "within Estonia's borders at that time" is false. There's no reference to border agreement. Moreover, Soviet Union does not exist anymore, so even this token gesture to Estonia may not be valid, given that Russia is highly selective in keeping to its commitments as the successor of Soviet Union.

To this day, there is no mutually ratified border agreement between Estonia and Russia. The best candidate is the formerly mutually ratified Treaty of Tartu. If this became "spoilage" as you say, then in terms of mutual relationships, certain things follow:

- Current mutual relations can be judged as bad, because Estonia and Russia are neighbours with no defined border between them. As such, recognition of independence does not matter much, even if it existed. But as said, there is no appropriate and solid recognition of independence.

- As such, from Russia's point of view, Estonia did not gain independence from Russia in 1920. The current Estonia is not a successor state of the earlier Republic of Estonia. Accordingly, Soviet Union never occupied Estonia, because the current Estonia is a different country, no formal relation to the earlier. Thus Russia owes nothing to Estonia for the decades of occupation and annexation.

- From Russia's point of view, Estonia (somewhat) gained independence from Soviet Union in 1991, but as there is no mutually ratified border agreement, Russia must be considering this a temporary state of affairs, to become "spoilage" when a favourable opportunity presents itself. Which is why, from Estonia's point of view, relationships cannot improve and all talk of peaceful best intentions from Russia's side is empty rhetoric.

You know wrong. Estonia and Latvia had territorial claims against Russia until Merkel forced us to renounce the claims.
Neither Merkel nor anybody else can 'force' you to do something. It's up to you to listen or not to an advise.
You mean just like United States could not force Cuba to give them Guantanamo? Like Soviet Union and Germany could not force Poland in 1939, as agreed in Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact? And EU could not force Jörg Haider to resign his premiership?

Then Germany was not forced to surrender unconditionally at the end of WWII. It was up to them to listen or not to an advice.

Thanks for making it abundantly clear on whose side you are and in what way.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-09-03, 21:22:08
Either the criteria are common or they don't exist.
Bunkum.
Criteria = a standard of judgment or criticism
There is no universal valid applied standard of judjgment or criticism. As a result even federal states within a country can have different laws, let alone diffrent political parties pursuing their own agenda based on different judgment.
If "sealed up in Yalta" is right, then this means ...
What it means is that major powers of the winning-side sealed it up. Not less and not more.
The current Estonia is not a successor state of the earlier Republic of Estonia.
Correct.
According to Russia, Estonia is the successor state of the former constituent republic of the Soviet Union and not the one from 1920.
You know wrong. Estonia and Latvia had territorial claims against Russia until Merkel forced us to renounce the claims.
Neither Merkel nor anybody else can 'force' you to do something. It's up to you to listen or not to an advise.
You mean just like United States could not force Cuba to give them Guantanamo? Like Soviet Union and Germany could not force Poland in 1939, as agreed in Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact? And EU could not force Jörg Haider to resign his premiership?

1. Actually they did. Otherwise Guantanamo wouldn't be under US jurisdiction. BTW, aside of Guantanamo there was also a Mexican Cession (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Cession).
2. Another limping comparison of yours.
    I can't recall neither Merkel's 'Wehrmacht' nor Putin's 'Red Army' threatening Estonia in 2005 in order to drop territoriale claims.
3. I can't recall of any premiership of Jörg Haider. Could you elaborate please?
Then Germany was not forced to surrender unconditionally at the end of WWII. It was up to them to listen or not to an advice.
Another 'appropriate' comparison of yours - Estonia in 2005 and Germany in 1945.
I assume that for your perception Estonia was in a similar situation in 2005 as Germany was in 1945 (decimated and surrounded by Merkel's Wehrmacht + Putin's Red Army).
BTW, Germany is still bound by classified agreements (like Japan b.t.w.) which even German parliamentarians are not allowed to access.
Thanks for making it abundantly clear on whose side you are and in what way.
Whatever "abundantly clear" translates to your perception - you're welcome.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-09-04, 07:56:03
Addendum:
Ersi, your statement that there was no reference to border agreement is false to say the least.
Besides, in May 2005 Angela Merkel wasn't in office so she had nothing to do with that treaty.

Quote
The agreement on the border between the two countries, recognizing that some territories are now in Russia, in the Pechory area of the Pskov Oblast and in the Leningrad Oblast, was signed in May 2005 and ratified by the Estonian parliament, but then Russia withdrew its signature from the treaty.
source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia%E2%80%93Russia_border#cite_note-2)

Wikipedia is omitting (because of its bias?) to mention the reasons for which Russia withdrew its signature from the treaty. At least it kindly provides a link to a Russian site instead.
Russia had good reasons to withdraw its signature since a month later, during ratification of the border treaty, the Estonian Parliament included additional provisions in the documents that were not provided in the original text signed in Moscow by the Ministers of Foreign Affairs Urmas Paet and Sergey Lavrov.
source (https://rg.ru/2005/09/01/estonia-granica-anons.html)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-09-04, 09:23:25
Meanwhile, in order to avoid border problems, the US bought Alaska to Russia. It was some time ago but I forgot to post.
There are rumours they haven't paid yet.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-09-04, 10:54:10
Addendum:

Ersi, your statement that there was no reference to border agreement is false to say the least.

Besides, in May 2005 Angela Merkel wasn't in office so she had nothing to do with that treaty.
Quote
The agreement on the border between the two countries, recognizing that some territories are now in Russia, in the Pechory area of the Pskov Oblast and in the Leningrad Oblast, was signed in May 2005 and ratified by the Estonian parliament, but then Russia withdrew its signature from the treaty.
source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia%E2%80%93Russia_border#cite_note-2)
If you understand what the quote says, then you understand that I am right and you are wrong.

I said: Russia's recognition of Estonia's independence has no reference to border agreement.
Wikipedia says, to put it briefly, that there is a border agreement between Estonia and Russia. There certainly is, but as you rightly point out, it's unratified by Russia. If you read everything I wrote, you'd notice I said the same thing:

To this day, there is no mutually ratified border agreement between Estonia and Russia.
Notice "no mutually ratified". So, I'm not denying there have been long border negotiations and even an actual agreement achieved. It's just that Russia has not ratified it, which is what matters in the end. And, all along, the border agreement is not tied to the recognition of independence. From Russia's point of view, the border agreement may be treated like a fixation of borders of one of its own oblasts, except that as long as it's not ratified, it doesn't rise even to that meagre level.

Now, you are right that Merkel was not in office when the agreement was first signed, but the pressure on Estonia and Latvia was specifically from Germany, and turned particularly vicious after Merkel took office. In Merkel's point of view, Russia was not to be blamed for failing to ratify the signed agreement. Rather, a new agreement with further concessions to Russia had to be negotiated. By further concessions I mean absolutely no reference to Treaty of Tartu in any context (this coming from a fellow EU member is particularly harsh) and extensive cooperation at border checkpoints to allow for future visa freedom that Merkel was dreaming about. Putin was, in words, positive about visa freedom and this got Merkel all excited, even though Baltic countries always knew this was another ploy to disrupt the EU internally. Throwing bones to evoke intra-EU quarrels is a game that Russia, US, and UK do regularly, and EU reacts perfectly predictably every time.

Russia had good reasons to withdraw its signature since a month later, during ratification of the border treaty, the Estonian Parliament included additional provisions in the documents that were not provided in the original text signed in Moscow by the Ministers of Foreign Affairs Urmas Paet and Sergey Lavrov.
source (https://rg.ru/2005/09/01/estonia-granica-anons.html)
"...additional provisions..." is false. It was a preamble that mentioned Treaty of Tartu, no additional provisions in the text whatsoever. Now, the funny thing is this. When agreements like this are ratified, preambles are routinely added. Preambles have no effect on the contents of the treaty. Preambles only declare how the ratifying country contextualises the agreement, i.e. it's some routine rhetorical bla-bla that everybody always does.

Estonia mentioned Treaty of Tartu in the preamble because, from Estonia's point of view, Estonia is the successor state of the earlier Republic of Estonia. Russia does not want this. But if a country does not let another country decide how the other country sees its historical succession, then that's a decision over the other country's sovereignty. Because this is what sovereignty means - SELF-determination. Russia whines about the preamble - not additional provisions, because there are no additional provisions between the end of the preamble and the signatures at the end of the agreement. To call the preamble "additional provisions" is false.

Russia whines about the preamble as it whines about any hint at Estonia's and Latvia's right to self-determination. In other words, Russia has major psychological problems with Estonia's and Latvia's sovereignty. As said, Treaty of Tartu is a matter of life or death, existence or non-existence for Estonia. Whereas from Russia's point of view, the question in which borders Estonia exists or whether Estonia exists at all, it's all a matter of border adjustment for Russia, not of existence of Russia. So, Russia is a bully, because it has the behaviour of a bully. Merkel's hopes turned out badly betrayed, while the predictions of Estonian politologists were correct. 

Meanwhile, this border game with Russia has involved major concessions on Estonia's part both to Russia and to EU, while we got nothing in return. Except blame and international disrespect. Well, I think our diplomats can be quite objectively blamed for lack of foresight and lack of backbone. They have been either naive, easily intimidated, or corrupt. Or all that.

Either the criteria are common or they don't exist.
Bunkum.
Criteria = a standard of judgment or criticism
There is no universal valid applied standard of judjgment or criticism. As a result even federal states within a country can have different laws, let alone diffrent political parties pursuing their own agenda based on different judgment.
"...no universal valid applied standard..." Therefore whenever you contradict me, there is no basis for anyone to determine if you are saying something worth listening or just emitting hot air. Which looks like a win-win situation. Rejoice!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-09-04, 12:18:36
You know ersi, there is a saying: Lies soon catch up with one.

To put it mildly, once more your assertion is false.
It's not only the Tartu agreement as you falsely claim that was added in the preamble.
Estonians also added Soviet-era sensitivities to affront the Russians. Those passages were definitively not part of the Tartu treaty.
You don't affront someone you want to reach an agreement with, except you don't care about that agreement or you are an idiot.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-09-04, 13:01:09
Look, dear Freund. You are not a tough case. You are a ridiculous case.

The entire preamble plus the entire ratification bill is here https://www.riigiteataja.ee/akt/915915

Let Google waffle it and find the affronts you refer to, such as Soviet-era sensitivities or the "additional provisions" your other source thought are there.

The simple fact is that having to negotiate borders with Estonia is an emotionally sensitive insult to Russians, because Estonia must not exist in Russia's view. Whereas to Estonia, Treaty of Tartu is a matter of the constitution that we readopted at referendum when re-gaining independence. You like referendums, don't you? But Russia likes them selectively. For Russians, it must not be re-gained independence, because that would mean we were occupied meanwhile, and that cannot be. Instead, they say, we were liberated, but now independent. Either they are implying that historical memory must be wiped out or that MRP was all for the best. Knowing Russians, both of these things mean the same thing.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-09-04, 14:20:29
Let Google waffle it and find the affronts you refer to, such as Soviet-era sensitivities or the "additional provisions" your other source thought are there.
It took less than 5 minutes.
The word "annexation" appears twice on that paper. In diplomatic language this is an non-ambiguous affront.

BTW, even partisan BBC is noticing that Indirect references to the Soviet occupation were added
Quote
A newer Estonian-Russian Border Treaty was signed by Estonia on May 18, 2005, reflecting the later border changes, but was rejected and cancelled by Russia on June 27, 2005, because references to Soviet occupation were added.
source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechory)

Quote
Moscow says it rejects clauses added by the Estonian parliament when it ratified the agreement on 20 June.
"Estonia did exactly what it promised not to do - insert political statements in the accord," said Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov.
Indirect references to the Soviet occupation were added, but Tallinn says the key treaty details were unchanged.
source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4626141.stm)






Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-09-04, 16:01:48
The word "annexation" appears twice on that paper.
What paper? I gave you a page. Everything that Estonia ADDED is on that page up front. There's no annexation there. 

If you click further in the text of the document, you get stuff that Russia SIGNED, but didn't ratify.

Since you clicked further in the page I gave, you can just as well google up the Russian text too and compare them, if anything's really added. Do your research properly. The title is Договор о границе между Россией и Эстонией от 18.05.2005 г. и условия территориальных обменов

And you don't know how to read newstext. The reasons for Russia's rejection are reported as per Russia's view. In the paragraph (very brief paragraph, so you quoted it in its entirety), Russia is doing the talking. You are unable to distinguish between fact and talk.

But here's another source for you, if you are happy enough with mere reporting. In 2014, Estonia and Russia SIGNED the same thing again.[1] "As compared to 2005, the wording of the border agreements has remained unchanged but the text has been supplemented with two sentences. With the first sentence, the sides confirm that the agreement regulates only issues concerning the state border and the second sentence confirms reciprocally the lack of territorial claims. The rest of the text is as it was signed in 2005, reports LETA." http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/34439/
Ratification pending. Why? Crimea.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-09-04, 17:11:32
The word "annexation" appears twice on that paper. In diplomatic language this is an non-ambiguous affront.
Oops, I see now. The webpage I gave, after googlewaffling, indeed includes "annex" as follows:

"...ratification of the annexed Estonia and the Russian Federation on the Estonian-Russian border treaty..."

"...ratification of the annexed Estonia and the Russian Federation, on the Narva and the Gulf of maritime delimitation treaty..."

Yep, since the texts of the agreement are annexed (i.e. attached) to the ratification bill, right there we have proof that Estonia is insulting Russia for Soviet-era annexation etc. In diplomatic language this is indeed a non-ambiguous affront.

I was so wrong. Namely, wrong about you, krake. As to the point itself, I always was spot-on and I remain so.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-09-04, 18:15:03
You are right about the term "anexation". It doesn't appear in the text you did provide. I've misinterpreted the text (annexed instead of attached documents) since I don't speak Estonian. Mea culpa.

Bear in mind that it makes no changes to the matter because my statement is still valid whereas yours are false to put it mildly...

Quote
That preamble has drawn vituperations from Lavrov, his ministry's chief spokesman Alexander Yakovenko, the Duma's and Federation Council's foreign affairs committee chairmen Konstantin Kosachev and Mikhail Margelov, and other Moscow officials. Politically, they object to the Estonian parliament's references to the 1991 and 1992 documents that mention the "Soviet aggression against Estonia in 1940," "illegal annexation," and "decades of occupation." Those formulations are not included or cited in the Estonian parliament's June 20, 2005, document. But its mere reference to the earlier documents that include those formulations seems beyond official Moscow's capacity to come to terms with its history.

source (http://www.jamestown.org/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=30572&no_cache=1)

How many evidences like the above (written in English) do you still need? 1?, 5?, 10?, ...?
Or do you think all those articles have been written and published (that of the BBC included) by KGB agents?

And since we are at it let me quote you:
You know wrong. Estonia and Latvia had territorial claims against Russia until Merkel forced us to renounce the claims. Meaning, "friendly fire" from within EU forced us to formally renounce claims to independence. Thank you very much!
Let's compare your statement with what BalticTimes has to say:
Quote
As compared to 2005, the wording of the border agreements has remained unchanged
source (http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/34439/)

In 2005 Merkel wasn't in office and the border agreements have remained unchanged in 2014 compared to 2005.

So, who tells the true and who makes false allegations? BalticTimes? Ersi?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-09-05, 11:36:17
Nice discussion in the wrong thread. Somebody looking for this subject will hardly find it here.
(Edit: now I see it has moved properly (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=481.msg65436#msg65436).)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-09-06, 11:20:44
(Edit: now I see it has moved properly (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=481.msg65436#msg65436).)
Causa ad acta on my part. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-09-11, 12:19:10
Obama has parasitic worm named in his honor: Baracktrema obamai (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/sep/9/obama-has-parasitic-worm-named-in-his-honor-barack/)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-12-01, 23:07:45
Obama has parasitic worm named in his honor: Baracktrema obamai
Fantastic.
Maybe many diseases could be named Something Americaini.

Bah, I'm joking, I like my American friends. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-12-07, 15:23:19
Time's Person of the Year (http://www.today.com/news/president-elect-donald-trump-time-person-year-2016-t105684)

(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.s-nbcnews.com%2Fj%2Fnewscms%2F2016_49%2F1180034%2Ftime-poy-cover-trump-today-161206_cbe454aa529a192dd0e276627cd43f31.today-inline-large.jpg&hash=fe2e1607afee7fb03c4c1583d5082a14" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://media1.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2016_49/1180034/time-poy-cover-trump-today-161206_cbe454aa529a192dd0e276627cd43f31.today-inline-large.jpg)

As a reminder - Time's Person of the Year 2015 was Angela Merkel followed by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi from the Islamic State.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-12-07, 15:45:35
Quote
"When you say 'divided states of America,' I didn't divide them," Trump said. "They're divided now, there's a lot of division. And we're going to put it back together."
So, he agrees. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-12-08, 00:31:21
He's not the President of "Divided States of America".
He's the "elected" President of "United Sates of America".

Outside the "United Sates of America" will see what he is. When he starts being someone.


Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-12-17, 21:43:54
Trump says Chinese made an "unpresident" act....
The imbecil thinks unpresident to be unprecedent...

As I said, we are seeing what he is.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-17, 23:03:02
Spelling lessons from Belfrager? Too funny! :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-12-19, 03:03:26
Not sure if we are seeing what he is yet. Curious mind you.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2016-12-20, 19:35:32
Noteworthy things that have happened since I last posted:

1. The Deep Fried Cheeto elected President.

2. DFC appoints millionaires and billionaires, and n'eer-do-wells to various Cabinet positions.

3. Mississippi Governor Phil Bryant, who presides over a public education system ranked 50th out of 50 states, is appointed to a position of influence in education by the Deep Fried Cheeto; indeed, his influence will be 2nd only to the Sec. for Education.

4. A deer hit my old 2001 Buick; the Buick has since been replaced by a 2015 Chevy Malibu

5. The so-called and so-asserted "War on Christmas" rages on; meanwhile many of my FB friends post pictures of Christmas Trees in their various churches of varying Protestant denominations (delicious irony there, methinks). @Belfrager will no doubt be pleased to note that none of my Catholic friends have posted pictures of, or reported Christmas Trees in their various churches.

6. My new job is going well and paying decent.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-12-21, 01:24:18
Because a few RC's don't mention Christmas trees does not mean they are not widely used. Tut, tut. Anyway colonel what are you doing work-wise now in the land of odd politics?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-21, 05:17:52
Political consulting? :)

You, Howie, would be teaching English composition...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Barulheira on 2016-12-21, 10:26:41
Roman Catholics are known to be more religiously indifferent than Protestants.
I'm not saying this is bad.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-12-21, 11:12:13
5. The so-called and so-asserted "War on Christmas" rages on; meanwhile many of my FB friends post pictures of Christmas Trees in their various churches of varying Protestant denominations (delicious irony there, methinks). @Belfrager will no doubt be pleased to note that none of my Catholic friends have posted pictures of, or reported Christmas Trees in their various churches.
It's just a naming problem. There's Christ in "Christmas" and this leaves the impression as if the two were related. Here in Northern Europe we don't call it Christmas and even if a Christmas tree (which we don't call a Christmas tree) is in a church, we don't make the connection.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2016-12-21, 12:50:53
You would have thought so, and the whole war on Christmas has been seen as American silliness. But that was before Facebook, and reality-distorted pockets on FBhave shown themselves willing to believe this and even more ridiculous stories.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-21, 19:57:24
It has more to do with a misreading of our constitution's 1st amendment... And militant atheists. (See here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madalyn_Murray_O%27Hair).) The contortions of logic used to blame it on Thomas Jefferson's phrase "wall of separation" are humorous!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-12-22, 01:23:08
The constant fighting over that constitution is humorous too. Even after two plus centuries still a groan.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-12-22, 15:38:24
DFC appoints millionaires and billionaires, and n'eer-do-wells to various Cabinet positions.
Nice "draining the swamp" , huh? Sounds like he's adding more fetid water to it. And why not? His meeting the defense contractors already took place at his own resort. The corruption will be legendary, even by DC standards.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-23, 00:37:31
Typical leftist technique, Sang: Start without evidence, add as much innuendo as time permits... Then, when the evidence comes in in contradiction to your narrative, ignore it.
I look forward to your further "predictions" (ahem! projections... :) ). "It's the seriousness of the charge, not the quality of the evidence..." (Has it occurred to you that that trope has lost its sheen? Quite a few people nowadays actually want evidence... :) Go figure!)

BTW: Have you a comment about this (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=2476.msg68682#msg68682)? (Since clicking a link may now be beyond your prowess, I'll preview it: You said who but a Nazi-KKK-rabid Alt-Righter would burn down a black church in Mississippi and spray-paint "Vote Trump" on its wall? Well, now we know...)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-12-23, 03:21:26
Yes it was a shock to fin out it was a black man who did that and was a nasty thing. It was easy for many to originally take it as who you mention Oakdale because so many, well, so-called liberal minds were going bananas in the streets.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-23, 03:43:28
It's all about the narrative, RJ: There's a long history of this sort of thing. (But the Mississippi church won't suffer financially and, thankfully, no one was hurt. -let's see if this passes the censors, who do indeed have the right to censor my comments here!- The nigger just had to express hisself, at the potential election of a white man instead of a white woman... :)
He'd been told by the MSM that Trump was a racist. And he had to act! How better to showcase the viciousness of "Whitey" than to burn down a black church?
It's not a new phenomenon. Unfortunately, it's based upon real hate crimes...

My question is: Why do so many people regret that they no longer happen?

Because their narrative requires a victim and a villain: Simple-minded rhetoric and vitriol...designed to keep Democrats (and leftists of all stripes) in power.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-12-23, 15:58:45
Then, when the evidence comes in in contradiction to your narrative, ignore it.
All I'm saying this does not bode well. Will taxpayer dollars start flowing into his properties when he holds meetings?
He'd been told by the MSM that Trump was a racist.
Really? That must have been a completely different MSM than I've seen. If anything, the MSM has supported Trump. Let this sink in. Every  time he wanted attention, he got. When the non-story about the emails came out right before the election, the MSM pounced on it like the smoking gun of Hillary's guilt, perhaps tipping the balance in the states where Trump one by one or two points (until oops it was the same emails......) Trump himself doesn't have be a racist, (in fact, I don't think the mainstream news ever accused him of being one.) but he energized them. Can you answer for the hundreds of other similar hate crimes committed since Nov 9. No?  Funny, the prep in this one is white  (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/crimewatch/hate-crime-arrest-made-in-homophobic-racially-charged-assault-against/article_cab0b386-3d34-504c-b8cb-3c7ffe48e26d.html) Tell me, what's Dylan Roof's race?

I understand. It's denial that the man you voted for has inspired violence. However, the incident with the church doesn't explain away hundreds of others.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-23, 17:27:26
Dylan Roof was inspired by Trump?! Sang, you're deranged...
The "hundreds" of others? They seem to be proving to be hoaxes quite regularly.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2016-12-23, 17:32:14
The nigger just had to express hisself, at the potential election of a white man instead of a white woman...
The problem is ignorance and who is to blame. Trump is racist. As are you and so am I as well as the next guy regardless of race. To what extent may be argued but owning the blame for it is the first step to relieving the ignorance and embracing solutions. (Dare you to suggest you're not a little racist after that.)
All I'm saying this does not bode well. Will taxpayer dollars start flowing into his properties when he holds meetings?
Naive beyond words. You love to argue politics but have no experience in actually dealing with such. Profiting off government ties is simply how it's done. What kind of fool wouldn't and there are plenty of legal ways to... Leaving out shadier happenings that are looked over.

Rj wafts in like a fart no one wants to claim talking about corporate control and everyone wants to turn away like that's not something they have anything to do with. But there is truth to it. His tactics are ultimately self-defeating because of his inherent ignorance, racism and bias, and he's invariably forgetting he's ranting against a system very much in place where he is too. It's how it's been since before any of us. His wider democracy falls from more government control over what he sees and how his telly wants him to believe the US is where all the bad things happen. Taking the same garbage y'all 'debate' and validating with your blind attention.   
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-23, 19:24:35
Yes, ensbb3, I do "dare to suggest that" I'm not "a little racist after that"... But your point seems to be that I'm not PC. To that I plead guilty: Adults use words differently than do the "snowflakes"!
The solution won't be the continued infantilizing of our society.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2016-12-23, 19:43:41
Somehow you think the word "nigger" offends me??

The point is the race of the person in question mattered greatly to you. You brought it back up and all but said "It was a nigger! Ha!"

I give 2 shits about being "PC". What is acceptable racism varies with culture. I've notice Europeans have a higher range of what is acceptable or moreover what isn't "racism" where Americans seem to jump to it quicker - too quick even. That's because you're denying what was actually racist in that by getting distracted by simple words and how you want them viewed rather than how you view the need to imply them. That is what makes them racist. These are human constructs that an ersi-esque style debate could drivel over for hours because you cant pin down significant qualifiers for every case. It never mattered to me what race the guy was nor does it change the reason it happened. You, and likewise your polar opposite, are to blame for the level of ignorance it takes to let these things happen. Arguing over who even knows what the fuck? You suggest "snowflake" as derogatory to me but it's not racist... Or is it the same thing? 

 
The solution won't be the continued infantilizing of our society.
Then stop it!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-23, 20:40:56
I brought it (the Greenville, MS church burning and spray-painting) back up because it was used to smear Trump and anyone who might vote for him; and, then, when the culprit was caught -- those who promoted the smear became silent. When a "false flag" operation is uncovered, that's what usually happens.
Without a doubt, it was simply too hard to argue that the horribleness of Trump made him do it...
The culprit is obviously deranged. But so were the many who credulously took it to be a "hate crime," in the legal sense. (It was, indeed, a hate crime -- but the hate was of the common variety: political rivalry, racial animus and cretinous reasoning.)

BTW: I wasn't calling you a "snowflake"... But you do seem to have caught the meme! :)

I'm curious to see if the local law follows through on its promise to prosecute the arson as a hate crime, regardless of the race of the offender...
I'm also curious about how many here think they should!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2016-12-23, 21:14:09
It should be about balance. but you and other's ride the scales like a seesaw. I'm not going to try to show you the forest while you're chopping that tree or anything.... However it was taken that way because ignorance doesn't know any better. Because everything I just said is true and no one can see past what they want to believe.

 
When a "false flag" operation is uncovered,
Conspiracy theory nonsense. You may be too old for the internet. (How to make something out of nothing 101.)

 
But so were the many who credulously took it to be a "hate crime," in the legal sense. (It was, indeed, a hate crime -- but the hate was of the common variety: political rivalry, racial animus and cretinous reasoning.)
A step in the right direction... Somehow I know our paths will quickly diverge. You don't mean any of that. just sounds good.

But you do seem to have caught the meme!
Yep, too old for the internet. 
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-12-23, 21:33:47
What is acceptable racism varies with culture. I've notice Europeans have a higher range of what is acceptable or moreover what isn't "racism" where Americans seem to jump to it quicker - too quick even.
I'd say that generally speaking we care less about how something is said and more about what is being said. Americans losing their marbles over "woman is the nigger of the world" or a word like "fuck" is bemusing, and worrisome when violent movies are considered more acceptable than some words or some (non-weird pornographic ) sex or nudity.

Paul Verhoeven is a great loss to American cinema. So it goes.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-23, 22:10:56
Conspiracy theory nonsense. You may be too old for the internet. (How to make something out of nothing 101.)
You mean a black criminal spray-painting "Vote Trump" and then torching the building of his own church was really a Trump supporter? One of those from the "basket of deplorables"?
Yup! Makes sense to me... :)

@Frenzie: I don't consider Paul Verhoeven's return a great loss. But I've only seen some of his English-language films... But if you don't want him you can send him back. I won't complain!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-12-23, 22:33:54
There's no place in the civilized world where people are classified by races.
I heard that happens with American identification cards, don't know if it's correct.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2016-12-23, 22:59:24
You mean a black criminal spray-painting "Vote Trump" and then torching the building of his own church was really a Trump supporter?
I guess what I'm really saying is it doesn't matter why he did it. It was dumb and I'm not sure that was entirely his fault. Pumped full of the rhetoric you can't get passed either he just did something stupid. I see no difference in cognitive processing with you and needing to point it out. WTF made you think it was ever about race? The media suggested it? Some idiots assumed and you were like, yea? Given no evidence and pure speculation from them you still wanted to yell back at obvious ignorance. Infantile doesn't cover it. But shameful comes close. 

It doesn't even matter if what you said is meant to be racist. Or hurtful. Or actually meaningful in anyway. You're guilty of the same type of thinking. You might not go burn a church but sure will use it to some perceived advantage. Gotta pamper those feelings.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-24, 00:24:39
I guess what I'm really saying is it doesn't matter why he did it.
It certainly does, if it's to be charged as a "hate crime"... But it also matters, since the "blame" continues to be placed on our President-Elect.
I can see being appalled at his election, if one disagrees with almost everything he's said (and says he plans to do). That's politics. But he was no more responsible for the criminal's acts than were the slavers who brought his ancestors here. (And the Democrats who "educated" him!)
It was dumb and I'm not sure that was entirely his fault. Pumped full of the rhetoric you can't get passed either he just did something stupid.
No, sir! He did something criminal, and vile. If you think the criminal was "pumped full of rhetoric" -but you don't seem familiar with either the rhetoric or its source- what's your take? The criminal was too fragile/feeble to resist the urge to respond to the liberal blogs' and the MSM's constantly "connecting" Trump to the Alt-Right, the KKK and Nazis; so he burned down his own church, hoping Trump supporters would be blamed? (They were blamed, btw. Specifically, by our own Midnight Raccoon... (If you'd like, I'll pull up a dozen quotes from the left's reliable sources. More, if you'd like...)
I see no difference in cognitive processing with you and needing to point it out. WTF made you think it was ever about race?
Oh, I don't know: Maybe the local police chief's press conferences. Maybe the mayor's press conferences. Maybe the major TV news reportage. Maybe the Huffington Post, and a host of other on-line leftist outlets...
And maybe Midnight Raccoon's sneering dismissal of anyone who wasn't a Trump supporter, as the culprit... And, since it was more than a month ago, I was unsure where he and I "discussed" the case. (He brought it up, BTW: As "evidence" of the evil influence of Trump! Gotta love the irony!) I posted the news as soon as I stumbled across it -- in the most likely thread.
Midnight (he's white, btw! :) ) somehow didn't respond. I think the technical term is "Trump Derangement Syndrome"...
Thinking I'd just posted in the wrong thread, I brought it up here -- because he was still posting here.

Why you "see no difference in cognitive processing" is moot... Perhaps you are a "snowflake" after all: See no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil -- except when one has a political disagreement! That would explain it.
The way things are going now, that would lead me to believe you're a black female transvestite homosexual... :) I won't go that far!
I'll just say that you're ignorant (the original meaning, un-aware...) and bored, so you troll.
Which is to say, I'd hoped to get Midnight Raccoon to respond, so we could continue our discussion.

Do you need help finding the scroll button? :)
----------------------------------------------------
One final note, ensbb3: This Left/Right, black/white thing is still going on in the Americas... Trump, and the various reactions to him, are symptoms -- not causes.
I don't like it. But hiding your head in the sand or merely tsk-tsking doesn't seem likely to make things better, which is what I'd like to see: Things getting better.

I "get it," that you're not the least bit interested... But I am: It's my country!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2016-12-24, 01:29:56
He did something criminal, and vile.
Criminal. Yes. Vile? Meh.

I'm not sure why you passed the judgment that it's wicked. Again, nothing has been released to suggest it. (Maybe he was on something? We don't know.) No one was hurt right? The church was inundated with donations. They took over $200k from Patreon alone(or the likes). So they get a new church and a bonus lesson learned about jumping to conclusions. -- They caught the guy - are you wanting to lynch 'em? Sure wanting it to be a hate crime, when it should show how ridiculous the mess was to begin with, smh.
Good could still come of it all. Unless every rambling idiotic opinion on the internet/media has it's way.
Oh, I don't know: Maybe the local police chief's press conferences. Maybe the mayor's press conferences. Maybe the major TV news reportage. Maybe the Huffington Post, and a host of other on-line leftist outlets...
I feel like I covered that... (Tho in your case it would of been "naw"?)
Some idiots assumed and you were like, yea?
You left out every right/alt-right/conservative source feeding it too. Takes two sides for the seesaw to work.

Not one call for due process from you - For reasoning out a solution. Just reactionary garbage held out as emotional justice for the simple minds derping around under the cause of political ideals. This country isn't divided, you're all in agreement. Sooner you all lemming train us into a recession perhaps the sooner we can pull heads out of asses and actually get somewhere. 

I like my red State. Works better with a bluer Federal Gov. I still think Trump can serve my purposes. Shameless optimism on my part. I can't help it.  :blush:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-24, 02:22:02
Takes two sides for the seesaw to work.
The idea that it's a see-saw is repugnant. But too many people have already accepted it... My voice won't likely matter. But I'd still speak...
Using "meh" makes you internet-ready, fo' sure!
They caught the guy - are you wanting to lynch 'em?
(I like your locution: It implies all of your race-baiting tropes! I'd rather trust the local law, even if -for perhaps understandable historical reasons- they've used rhetoric to inflame the situation. There hasn't been a trial yet; and I'm not gonna be on the jury anyway. I'd prefer to let the locals handle it. (BTW: I've always been against the "hate crime" category... It's redundant, and leads to the kind of politicization I hate! If a black man kills a white man or a white man kills a black man, the primary charge is Murder.
Sure wanting it to be a hate crime, when it should show how ridiculous the mess was to begin with
You must know that what you're imputing to me comes from your own inability to read? Right?
The "mess" was ginned up, because so many Clinton supporters thought that was a good strategy! (With friends like these, who needs enemies?)

But that's politics! You're above that, I presume... :)
I don't want it to be charged as a hate crime. I want it to be charged as arson; and the fellow needs some psychiatric help. (The rest of his "motivation" should be left to the professionals that are charged with "rehabilitating" him! I'd recommend a sentence -if he's found guilty of the crime- of 4 to 8 years! :) But that's because I'm evil and racist! :) ) The guy was a petty criminal before this incident. One wonders if a conspiracy charge might be forthcoming? :) Was he "encouraged" to besmirch the "Trumpsters" by... Hm.

As I said, there's a sick divide, in my country. I'd like to see it mended. But it won't happen if no one wants to let go of their prejudices. (I use that word also with it's original meaning... PC be damned!) Statists and "the rest of us" need to come to an accommodation: That begins with the Trump presidency.
He may not be able to accomplish much; he may not accomplish anything. But he will be the president (...despite Barack's prediction) and he should have the chance to prove himself.

So: Can we stop the "racist, everything-a-phobe" rhetoric already?
No. And you know who won't...

The election's over. Hillary lost; Trump won. So it goes.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-12-24, 02:43:13
You mean a black criminal spray-painting "Vote Trump" and then torching the building of his own church was really a Trump supporter? One of those from the "basket of deplorables"?
Yup! Makes sense to me...
It's not outside the realm of possibility. What was the motive? Like a right-wing blog lemming, you still seem to think even the majority if the incidents, now actually over 1000 are hoaxes. (13 are hoaxes out of all those...)
and he should have the chance to prove himself.
And he's already showing himself corrupt. Why was the meeting with defense contractors at his resort? Why did the rent at his Trump Tower HQ increase after he stopped self-funding? Was it to bilk his supporters? You want to use the straw man "predication" , but his corruption is already showing and he known as double-dealer decades before the election. What part of this is hard for you?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-24, 03:25:22
What part of this is hard for you?
The whole "I don't agree with him, so he's evil and responsible for everything anybody does" part.
It's not outside the realm of possibility.
So: Whatever the facts are, you'll hold Trump responsible... Good to have you on-record; but I already knew that.
Some others seem not to have.
the majority if [sic, which is to say: He hopes that such is the case...] the incidents, now actually over 1000 are hoaxes.
I'll wait until the individual cases are investigated... I hope you don't mind? :) Each one that's become prominent has proved to be a hoax.
But you keep hoping...
BTW, have you reported me for harassing you, yet? You know I have -- by your definition! I think you're a pussy, Sang! Which is pretty funny, if you come to think of it!

Four years from now, you'll get the chance to vote (and work for and donate to) the candidate of your choice. You want more? Of course you do! You think it's the end of the world when "your side" loses an election... Where were you in 2010 and 2014? If you want to be involved in politics, understand that it's a long game.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-12-25, 04:44:52
Each one that's become prominent has proved to be a hoax.
The reason you think that is you read rightwing blogs instead of actually finding out what's been happening, being a Trumpian zombie.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-25, 18:26:33
Trump now controls local PDs and newspapers...? Wow. I never knew! He's already taken over everything... (Well, just your imagination! :) )
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-12-28, 04:55:37
(Well, just your imagination!
No. It's your imagination that I said anything remotely like that. Face it, there has been an upswing in racial incidents since the election. The blog you cited is not only run by a member of a fascist party, but it objectively wrong about the number of followers. How did I prove him wrong? Merely by searching for Richard Spencer Twitter, that didn't provide the total number of followers but did show the number to be much more than 300.
You think it's the end of the world when "your side" loses an election..
There are deep concerns about Trump. Everything else aside, he's not behaving like the President of the United States. If Romney has somehow beaten Obama, it wouldn't be considered an existential threat to the Republic. Likewise if things had gone better for Rubio. Get it, yet? It's not the mere fact of losing, it's having a man with questionable mental stability as president. Now he wants bizarre conspiracy theorists in his cabinet.

Then there are issues such as why would we need more nuclear weapons. Between the US and Russia, we can destroy the world ten times over. The US and Russia hold 93 percent of the world's nukes. Why do we need more. If Kim Jong-Un decides to be even more of a lunatic and uses his, not even China will support him.That is if Trump wants more nukes at all. He tweets whatever insanity is on his mind in the moment and contradicts those tweets the next week and his team winds up having to back peddle them for him and provides no clear policy. I expect a president to provide a clear vision, not keep muddying the waters.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-28, 06:43:36
No. It's your imagination that I said anything remotely like that. Face it, there has been an upswing in racial incidents since the election.
No, Sang: You've repeatedly said that Trump has trumped up the rhetoric... The "reports" of incidents. BTW! They're getting smacked down on a regular basis... (Which is why the main one you pinned your hopes on is the one you won't comment upon... :)
The blog you cited is not only run by a member of a fascist party, but it objectively wrong about the number of followers. How did I prove him wrong? Merely by searching for Richard Spencer Twitter, that didn't provide the total number of followers but did show the number to be much more than 300.
(Are you willing to to accept Trump's Twitter numbers... ?)
So: The actual fascist who employed the boy for two years doesn't know anything! Your usual level of "evidence"...
You already know what I think about Twitter, Sang! (We can disagree about this; but yo can't convince me...  Hm. 200 or 300... How many pedophiles are there? On Twitter? Or in the "system"? You're playing a dangerous game.) Let me repeat myself: is for people who shouldn't be let out, except on a leash!
(I'd thought you smart enough to use that line; I guess I was wrong! But maybe you're pretty smart, after all: You don't dare go there!)
Get it, yet? It's not the mere fact of losing, it's having a man with questionable mental stability as president. Now he wants bizarre conspiracy theorists in his cabinet.
Who might these "conspiracy theorists" be...?
I don't expect you to mention the author of the "vast Right Wing conspiracy" against Bill Clinton; including the "Bimbo Eruptions"... :)
So: Who are these "conspiracy theorists"?
Then there are issues such as why would we need more nuclear weapons.
Of course, Putin saying that his country is going to upgrade their nuclear arsenal was just -- a nice parting shot at Obama!
Between the US and Russia, we can destroy the world ten times over. The US and Russia hold 93 percent of the world's nukes. Why do we need more[?] If Kim Jong-Un decides to be even more of a lunatic and uses his, not even China will support him. [He doesn't need "support"...] That is if Trump wants more nukes at all. He tweets whatever insanity is on his mind in the moment and contradicts those tweets the next week and his team winds up having to back peddle them for him and provides no clear policy. I expect a president to provide a clear vision, not keep muddying the waters.
"I expect...'... Then, boy-o, you should have elected one! Hillary seemed to have wanted to go to war with Russia!
Let's go to war with Russia! That'll work out well...
Also, even China doesn't claime to keep herd on NK.

BTW: We don't need more nuclear weapons; but we do need updated versions .
(You wouldn't know this, but our nukes are woefully behind, technologically... Unless of course you're rejected MAD! (For those of you who've never paid attention: That's an acronym for "Mutual Assured Destruction. In which case, Reagan was right: The Strategic Defense program was sensible... ABM treaties were abrogated -which is to say, when we could we withdrew from them- and should never have been signed -- NOT!)[
Putin said he was going to update his nation's nuclear arsenal. Of course, he was -like Obama- just drawing a "red line" in the sand! :) )
I expect a president to provide a clear vision, not keep muddying the waters.
No. You just want your "team" to win... Guess what: They didn't! Oops! :)
Sang, you want Hillary to be President. Ain't gonna happen, either.

You want a clear vision[?  Look at the latest kerfluiffle in the UN... Obama's administration is all on board.

Also you should be aware that the "clear vision" you seem to want is -- accepting the people who'd kill you... You seem so stupid, to me!
But that's your weird way of being "so very, very" silly: You hate people who don't like you -- except when they're the Muslims; because BHO says they're all nice!
Smart move, Sang!
If you win, you lose --  big-time! :)
But your hatefulness knows no bounds...

You'll hate Trumo until the day you die! Enjoy your  rejection of America - and, please, go somewhere else!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-12-28, 12:04:11
Hillary seemed to have wanted to go to war with Russia!
Okay, put down the whiskey or whatever you're drinking. You're drunk enough already. Both her and Putin know that a US/Russia war would be catastrophic on a global scale.
The "reports" of incidents. BTW! They're getting smacked down on a regular basis...
13 out of over a thousand. You know what? Your trollish post isn't even worth answering any further. You're trying to upset and unnerve me. The only reason it's even close close to successful in that is that I know you're not this much of an idiot. So why do you do this? Was I right in that you're drunk?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-29, 01:15:25
13 out of over a thousand. You know what? Your trollish post isn't even worth answering any further. You're trying to upset and unnerve me. The only reason it's even close close to successful in that is that I know you're not this much of an idiot. So why do you do this? Was I right in that you're drunk?
Let's unpack that:
13 out of over a thousand: The ones that have been investigated...
I'm trying to upset and unnerve you? :) No, "snowflake," I'm trying to educate you, to get you to pay attention to the real world... (I know it's a thankless task, and likely futile.)
You're right, that I'm not an idiot. But I admit that I failed to consider the possibility that my post would "upset and unnerve" you...
Hie thee to a nunnery safe space! :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-12-29, 03:38:42
Uh-oh, midnight raccoon. Millions of Oakdales behind Trump to add to the dilemma! Glad I stick to diet soft drinks.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-12-29, 04:58:09
. But I admit that I failed to consider the possibility that my post would "upset and unnerve" you...
Oh please. You were trying to troll me and even adopted the language of Trump trolls, i.e. calling everyone that doesn't support Trump "snowflake" for some reason. Why? Because 1) You were drunk and/or 2)You're source was a blog run by a member off a Greek fascist party that was easily shown in incorrect in the number of Richard Spencer's followers - probably delibrately lying to downplay the level of Trump's support among American fascists and would be fascists.
Glad I stick to diet soft drinks.
He needs something besides that. Maybe a nice detox tea to get all that out of his system.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-29, 05:41:23
Oh please. You were trying to troll me and even adopted the language of Trump trolls, i.e. calling everyone that doesn't support Trump "snowflake" for some reason. Why?
Because I have two children in college; one at UC Berkeley, the other doing graduate work at UCLA... So, I tend to pay attention to what goes on on campus.
Because 1) You were drunk and/or 2)You're Your source was a blog run by a member [of] a Greek fascist party that was easily shown in incorrect in the number of Richard Spencer's followers - probably delibrately lying to downplay the level of Trump's support among American fascists and would be fascists.
You mean an actual Greek fascist who employed the boy for two years is an unreliable source?
You like your conspiracy theories, don't you?
"[...] easily shown in incorrect in the number of Richard Spencer's followers"... What you mean is, you don't want to believe the evidence; your mind is made up, and nothing will change it! (You do remember, what my opinion of Twitter is? Right? Give me a reason to change it...)
Ooh! Would-be fascists... Sounds scary! Thought-crime seems to be your new bugaboo, Sang!

I don't know what it would take, to get your Liberal bias out of your system! Luckily, it ain't my problem.
You're entitled to your vote. And both what you contribute to your party's candidates, and whatever "activism" you commit -if it's legal- is fine with me.

It seems to me that I'm more coherent, even when I'm drunk, than you are when you're sober... (Ah! The advantages of being old!)
I likes to drink a bit. And talk. (This forum is a form of talking, isn't it? :) ) I don't troll you. But we've been arguing for a long time, and I do know that you will provide the current Leftist memes... These are what I rail against!

I'm sure you're a nice enough fellow. I have nothing against you personally. And, if I offend you, you can easily stop reading my posts... (BTW: It's never my intent to offend you, Sang... I don't even understand why that would make sense.) When you offend me, I take it to be a "symptom" of your disease: Liberalism. So, I usually just let it go.
(If I knew of a cure, I'd recommend it. But you don't want to be cured! So, no matter...)

Seriously: Do you think that you and I would have a problem, in real life? If not, why would you be "
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-12-29, 08:16:52
You didn't see that I went to Spencer's Twitter to find out how many followers he has just there? (28.4 k) , no doubt his true number of followers dwarfs this figure. Your source wad lying or is an idiot. Belonging to the Golden Dawn, which is a Greek fascist party, doesn't help his case. It's almost frightening that you confuse a fascist source for a conservative one. Has the line really become this blurred? I didn"t say you offended me. I said you're trying to and I don't understand why besides you have no other recourse lacking facts.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2016-12-29, 14:20:32
"I expect...'... Then, boy-o, you should have elected one! Hillary seemed to have wanted to go to war with Russia!
Let's go to war with Russia! That'll work out well...
Also, even China doesn't claime to keep herd on NK.

BTW: We don't need more nuclear weapons; but we do need updated versions .
(You wouldn't know this, but our nukes are woefully behind, technologically... Unless of course you're rejected MAD! (For those of you who've never paid attention: That's an acronym for "Mutual Assured Destruction. In which case, Reagan was right: The Strategic Defense program was sensible... ABM treaties were abrogated -which is to say, when we could we withdrew from them- and should never have been signed -- NOT!)[
Putin said he was going to update his nation's nuclear arsenal. Of course, he was -like Obama- just drawing a "red line" in the sand!  :)  )

Nuclear weapons have a "best used before" date. A huge number was decommissioned with the Cold War, but at some point nuclear powers need to go back to the forge or forego them, something no one has done to date (the British have given it some thought), so yes "modernising" in some sense is unavoidable. The Russian warhead were in a miserable state, and a decade or so ago American hawks were talking about the possibility that after an American first strike the Russians would not be able to retaliate. The Russians didn't enjoy that non-MAD talk very much, and they found means to modernise their warheads.

Putin has found that talking tough is a lot cheaper than actually dropping those billions into nuclear war holes, never to be seen again. China doesn't even do MAD, they have enough warheads to hopefully make a credible defence and that's it. The US have to decide how much of their resources they want to sacrifice to the gods of war, and how. 

Modernising is not what Trump tweeted, but:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/811977223326625792 (is there a Twitter mod?)


(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fichef.bbci.co.uk%2Fnews%2F560%2Fcpsprodpb%2F0C1B%2Fproduction%2F_93099030_trump.jpg&hash=8d979afc07656d3f5a4851e347fd3825" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/560/cpsprodpb/0C1B/production/_93099030_trump.jpg)

As earlier when Trump has tweeted something outrageously, aides has rushed in to say that this was not what the Great Trump meant, but modernisation (which is controversial, but still rational), something the Great Trump contradicts later. 

There are two scenarios. The benevolent is that Trump is trolling, the malevolent is that he is gaslighting. That you have elected a troll for president is the best available scenario tells something about what you have done. 
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-29, 19:28:16
Russia is belligerent, in it's sphere... Neither surprising nor alarming (for the U.S. -- your mileage in Europe and the Middle East may vary!) I grew up with the threat of nuclear war: It hasn't happened. MAD was always an insane strategy, and no one seriously considered a "first strike" scenario.
Tactical nukes have been available for decades and neutron bombs have never been used... Proliferation is the real problem: It's hard to get the genie back in the bottle!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2016-12-29, 20:12:20
Nuclear weapons have turned from being a force benefiting the major powers to a risk to them. Son-of-ISIS can do more harm to the US with a nuclear device than the US can do to Son-of-ISIS. Russia would presumably not go MAD, if they did, proximity to Russia or the lack thereof would be less relevant. Russia's potential for harm to the neighbours is not nuclear.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-12-29, 22:01:42
Nuclear weapons... Americans can't even prevent Russians of influencing their elections...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-12-30, 03:24:55
Americans can't even prevent Russians of influencing their elections...
That's another issue with Trump. His response to the possibility of Russia influencing the election was that "our country to move on to bigger and better things" instead of any kind of investigation. If we indeed have Russia (or any other foreign power, hacking or election system and political parties, we need to find out once and for all. This isn't to say that Putin ordered the attacks, which we don't know yet, but we need an investigation to know what happened, how it happened and who did it.  What we do know is that a crime was committed. But Trump is disturbing cavalier of this cyber-security issue.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-30, 03:35:28
What we do know is that a crime was committed.
Actually, that's what we don't know... :) Or do you agree with the Obama administration, that whistle-blowing is a crime?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-12-30, 03:57:01
:faint: No. That's exactly what we do know. Breaking into the emails of the Sec. of State has always been a crime. In fact, I remember giving you the exact law before. Do you really think breaking into a government communications isn't a crime?

Quote
18 USC §1030(a) Whoever--
(1) having knowingly accessed a computer without authorization or exceeding authorized access, and by means of such conduct having obtained information that has been determined by the United States Government pursuant to an Executive order or statute to require protection against unauthorized disclosure for reasons of national defense or foreign relations, or any restricted data, as defined in paragraph y. of section 11 of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, with reason to believe that such information so obtained could be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation willfully communicates, delivers, transmits, or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it;
(2) intentionally accesses a computer without authorization or exceeds authorized access, and thereby obtains--
(A) information contained in a financial record of a financial institution, or of a card issuer as defined in section 1602 (n) of title 15, or contained in a file of a consumer reporting agency on a consumer, as such terms are defined in the Fair Credit Reporting Act (15 U.S.C. 1681 et seq.);
(B) information from any department or agency of the United States; or
(C) information from any protected computer;
(3) intentionally, without authorization to access any nonpublic computer of a department or agency of the United States, accesses such a computer of that department or agency that is exclusively for the use of the Government of the United States or, in the case of a computer not exclusively for such use, is used by or for the Government of the United States and such conduct affects that use by or for the Government of the United States;
(4) knowingly and with intent to defraud, accesses a protected computer without authorization, or exceeds authorized access, and by means of such conduct furthers the intended fraud and obtains anything of value, unless the object of the fraud and the thing obtained consists only of the use of the computer and the value of such use is not more than $5,000 in any 1-year period;
(5)
(A) knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally causes damage without authorization, to a protected computer;
(B) intentionally accesses a protected computer without authorization, and as a result of such conduct, recklessly causes damage; or
(C) intentionally accesses a protected computer without authorization, and as a result of such conduct, causes damage and loss.
(6) knowingly and with intent to defraud traffics (as defined in section 1029) in any password or similar information through which a computer may be accessed without authorization, if--
(A) such trafficking affects interstate or foreign commerce; or
(B) such computer is used by or for the Government of the United States;
(7) with intent to extort from any person any money or other thing of value, transmits in interstate or foreign commerce any communication containing any--
(A) threat to cause damage to a protected computer;
(B) threat to obtain information from a protected computer without authorization or in excess of authorization or to impair the confidentiality of information obtained from a protected computer without authorization or by exceeding authorized access; or
(C) demand or request for money or other thing of value in relation to damage to a protected computer, where such damage was caused to facilitate the extortion;
shall be punished as provided in subsection (c) of this section.
(b) Whoever conspires to commit or attempts to commit an offense under subsection (a) of this section shall be punished as provided in subsection (c) of this section.
(c) The punishment for an offense under subsection (a) or (b) of this section is--
(1)
(A) a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than ten years, or both, in the case of an offense under subsection (a)(1) of this section which does not occur after a conviction for another offense under this section, or an attempt to commit an offense punishable under this subparagraph; and
(B) a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than twenty years, or both, in the case of an offense under subsection (a)(1) of this section which occurs after a conviction for another offense under this section, or an attempt to commit an offense punishable under this subparagraph;
(2)
(A) except as provided in subparagraph (B), a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than one year, or both, in the case of an offense under subsection (a)(2), (a)(3), or (a)(6) of this section which does not occur after a conviction for another offense under this section, or an attempt to commit an offense punishable under this subparagraph;
(B) a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or both, in the case of an offense under subsection (a)(2), or an attempt to commit an offense punishable under this subparagraph, if--
(i) the offense was committed for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain;
(ii) the offense was committed in furtherance of any criminal or tortious act in violation of the Constitution or laws of the United States or of any State; or
(iii) the value of the information obtained exceeds $5,000; and
(C) a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than ten years, or both, in the case of an offense under subsection (a)(2), (a)(3) or (a)(6) of this section which occurs after a conviction for another offense under this section, or an attempt to commit an offense punishable under this subparagraph;
(3)
(A) a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than five years, or both, in the case of an offense under subsection (a)(4) or (a)(7) of this section which does not occur after a conviction for another offense under this section, or an attempt to commit an offense punishable under this subparagraph; and
(B) a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than ten years, or both, in the case of an offense under subsection (a)(4), or (a)(7) of this section which occurs after a conviction for another offense under this section, or an attempt to commit an offense punishable under this subparagraph;
(4)
(A) except as provided in subparagraphs (E) and (F), a fine under this title, imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or both, in the case of--
(i) an offense under subsection (a)(5)(B), which does not occur after a conviction for another offense under this section, if the offense caused (or, in the case of an attempted offense, would, if completed, have caused)--
(I) loss to 1 or more persons during any 1-year period (and, for purposes of an investigation, prosecution, or other proceeding brought by the United States only, loss resulting from a related course of conduct affecting 1 or more other protected computers) aggregating at least $5,000 in value;
(II) the modification or impairment, or potential modification or impairment, of the medical examination, diagnosis, treatment, or care of 1 or more individuals;
(III) physical injury to any person;
(IV) a threat to public health or safety;
(V) damage affecting a computer used by or for an entity of the United States Government in furtherance of the administration of justice, national defense, or national security; or
(VI) damage affecting 10 or more protected computers during any 1-year period; or
(ii) an attempt to commit an offense punishable under this subparagraph;
(B) except as provided in subparagraphs (E) and (F), a fine under this title, imprisonment for not more than 10 years, or both, in the case of--
(i) an offense under subsection (a)(5)(A), which does not occur after a conviction for another offense under this section, if the offense caused (or, in the case of an attempted offense, would, if completed, have caused) a harm provided in subclauses (I) through (VI) of subparagraph (A)(i); or
(ii) an attempt to commit an offense punishable under this subparagraph;
(C) except as provided in subparagraphs (E) and (F), a fine under this title, imprisonment for not more than 20 years, or both, in the case of--
(i) an offense or an attempt to commit an offense under subparagraphs (A) or (B) of subsection (a)(5) that occurs after a conviction for another offense under this section; or
(ii) an attempt to commit an offense punishable under this subparagraph;
(D) a fine under this title, imprisonment for not more than 10 years, or both, in the case of--
(i) an offense or an attempt to commit an offense under subsection (a)(5)(C) that occurs after a conviction for another offense under this section; or
(ii) an attempt to commit an offense punishable under this subparagraph;
(E) if the offender attempts to cause or knowingly or recklessly causes serious bodily injury from conduct in violation of subsection (a)(5)(A), a fine under this title, imprisonment for not more than 20 years, or both;
(F) if the offender attempts to cause or knowingly or recklessly causes death from conduct in violation of subsection (a)(5)(A), a fine under this title, imprisonment for any term of years or for life, or both; or
(G) a fine under this title, imprisonment for not more than 1 year, or both, for--
(i) any other offense under subsection (a)(5); or
(ii) an attempt to commit an offense punishable under this subparagraph.
(d)
(1) The United States Secret Service shall, in addition to any other agency having such authority, have the authority to investigate offenses under this section.
(2) The Federal Bureau of Investigation shall have primary authority to investigate offenses under subsection (a)(1) for any cases involving espionage, foreign counterintelligence, information protected against unauthorized disclosure for reasons of national defense or foreign relations, or Restricted Data (as that term is defined in section 11y of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 (42 U.S.C. 2014 (y)), except for offenses affecting the duties of the United States Secret Service pursuant to section3056 (a) of this title.
(3) Such authority shall be exercised in accordance with an agreement which shall be entered into by the Secretary of the Treasury and the Attorney General.
(e) As used in this section--
(1) the term "computer" means an electronic, magnetic, optical, electrochemical, or other high speed data processing device performing logical, arithmetic, or storage functions, and includes any data storage facility or communications facility directly related to or operating in conjunction with such device, but such term does not include an automated typewriter or typesetter, a portable hand held calculator, or other similar device;
(2) the term "protected computer" means a computer--
(A) exclusively for the use of a financial institution or the United States Government, or, in the case of a computer not exclusively for such use, used by or for a financial institution or the United States Government and the conduct constituting the offense affects that use by or for the financial institution or the Government; or
(B) which is used in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce or communication, including a computer located outside the United States that is used in a manner that affects interstate or foreign commerce or communication of the United States;
(3) the term "State" includes the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and any other commonwealth, possession or territory of the United States;
(4) the term "financial institution" means--
(A) an institution, with deposits insured by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation;
(B) the Federal Reserve or a member of the Federal Reserve including any Federal Reserve Bank;
(C) a credit union with accounts insured by the National Credit Union Administration;
(D) a member of the Federal home loan bank system and any home loan bank;
(E) any institution of the Farm Credit System under the Farm Credit Act of 1971;
(F) a broker-dealer registered with the Securities and Exchange Commission pursuant to section 15 of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934;
(G) the Securities Investor Protection Corporation;
(H) a branch or agency of a foreign bank (as such terms are defined in paragraphs (1) and (3) of section 1(b) of the International Banking Act of 1978); and
(I) an organization operating under section 25 orsection 25(a)  [1] of the Federal Reserve Act;
(5) the term "financial record" means information derived from any record held by a financial institution pertaining to a customer's relationship with the financial institution;
(6) the term "exceeds authorized access" means to access a computer with authorization and to use such access to obtain or alter information in the computer that the accesser is not entitled so to obtain or alter;
(7) the term "department of the United States" means the legislative or judicial branch of the Government or one of the executive departments enumerated in section 101 of title 5;
(8) the term "damage" means any impairment to the integrity or availability of data, a program, a system, or information;
(9) the term "government entity" includes the Government of the United States, any State or political subdivision of the United States, any foreign country, and any state, province, municipality, or other political subdivision of a foreign country;
(10) the term "conviction" shall include a conviction under the law of any State for a crime punishable by imprisonment for more than 1 year, an element of which is unauthorized access, or exceeding authorized access, to a computer;
(11) the term "loss" means any reasonable cost to any victim, including the cost of responding to an offense, conducting a damage assessment, and restoring the data, program, system, or information to its condition prior to the offense, and any revenue lost, cost incurred, or other consequential damages incurred because of interruption of service; and
(12) the term "person" means any individual, firm, corporation, educational institution, financial institution, governmental entity, or legal or other entity.
(f) This section does not prohibit any lawfully authorized investigative, protective, or intelligence activity of a law enforcement agency of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision of a State, or of an intelligence agency of the United States.
(g) Any person who suffers damage or loss by reason of a violation of this section may maintain a civil action against the violator to obtain compensatory damages and injunctive relief or other equitable relief. A civil action for a violation of this section may be brought only if the conduct involves 1 of the factors set forth in subclauses  (I), (II), (III), (IV), or (V) of subsection (c)(4)(A)(i). Damages for a violation involving only conduct described in subsection (c)(4)(A)(i)(I) are limited to economic damages. No action may be brought under this subsection unless such action is begun within 2 years of the date of the act complained of or the date of the discovery of the damage. No action may be brought under this subsection for the negligent design or manufacture of computer hardware, computer software, or firmware.
(h) The Attorney General and the Secretary of the Treasury shall report to the Congress annually, during the first 3 years following the date of the enactment of this subsection, concerning investigations and prosecutions under subsection (a)(5).
(i)
(1) The court, in imposing sentence on any person convicted of a violation of this section, or convicted of conspiracy to violate this section, shall order, in addition to any other sentence imposed and irrespective of any provision of State law, that such person forfeit to the United States--
(A) such person's interest in any personal property that was used or intended to be used to commit or to facilitate the commission of such violation; and
(B) any property, real or personal, constituting or derived from, any proceeds that such person obtained, directly or indirectly, as a result of such violation.
(2) The criminal forfeiture of property under this subsection, any seizure and disposition thereof, and any judicial proceeding in relation thereto, shall be governed by the provisions of section 413 of the Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act of 1970 (21 U.S.C. 853), except subsection (d) of that section.
(j) For purposes of subsection (i), the following shall be subject to forfeiture to the United States and no property right shall exist in them:
(1) Any personal property used or intended to be used to commit or to facilitate the commission of any violation of this section, or a conspiracy to violate this section.
(2) Any property, real or personal, which constitutes or is derived from proceeds traceable to any violation of this section, or a conspiracy to violate this section 

The hacks satisfied several of these conditions to be crime. What other silliness do you have? Just because the hack benefitted your party doesn't negate the illegality of it.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2016-12-30, 09:23:26
Americans can't even prevent Russians of influencing their elections...
Imagine, without Putin's hackers Oak and SF would have casted their votes for Hillary.  ;)
However Putin has his limits. He didn't manage to influence Sang and make him cast his vote for Trump.  :P 
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2016-12-30, 11:08:27
US American absurdity

 (http://www.gq.com/story/inside-federal-bureau-of-way-too-many-guns)
Inside the Federal Bureau Of Way Too Many Guns (http://www.gq.com/story/inside-federal-bureau-of-way-too-many-guns)


Quote
"It's in here somewhere," Linda Mills tells me. I meet her in the "roll room," a cavern of beige drawers you pull out and pick among--40,000 rolls of microfilm in all, each with about 10,000 frames on it. "I'll find it," says Mills. She's in her 70s and due for retirement and wears her white hair long and down her back. She's looking for the record of a person who bought a Remington 870 12-gauge shotgun that was sold by a now defunct dealer in Denver. She thinks she picked the right roll, so she carries it back to her desk, where the lights are as dim as a closet's, and where a microfilm reader circa 1973 is planted. Here she will sit, as she has for the past 18 years, turning a dial right while countless images zoom past.
"I'm looking for a W," she says. The images are the color of asphalt, and the writing on them looks like tiny pebbles, and they whiz by so fast, I begin to get actual car sickness. I ask her how she can possibly read anything moving this fast.
"I'm looking for a W," she says, picking up a magnifying glass and leaning in toward the upper left of the screen. She's hunting for the first letter of a 15-character code atop the defunct dealer's record books. "Sometimes they'll just put the numbers, they won't put the alphabet." Now she's squinting, one eye closed, the machine whirring, the images zooming. "We had 8's. We're still in the 9's. See, now it went on to a different gun again.... But if we get past--wait!"
Abruptly, she hits the "stop" button. "See, here's W's."


Quote
In 2013, recognizing how important tracing is for solving crimes, and for providing intelligence regarding patterns of illegal gun trafficking, President Obama asked for more of it: He signed a memorandum demanding that all firearms recovered in the course of criminal investigations be traced.
But Congress didn't give Charlie any funds, or manpower, to accommodate an influx. In fact, his budget has been flat since 2005. What Charlie got from Congress is the same thing he always gets: scrutiny. "If a stick drops in the road, we're getting some pressure," he tells me. The idea--which is forcefully pushed by the gun lobby and implanted in the heads of lawmakers at the behest of the NRA--is to make sure Charlie is not using his power to access America's 4473s to secretly create a searchable database.


(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.gq.com%2Fphotos%2F57be04dfff4e739d495a5749%2Fmaster%2Fw_500%2Fguns-bureau-gq-0916-011.jpg&hash=cf434d0f9293a966d1891800ad0f0522" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://media.gq.com/photos/57be04dfff4e739d495a5749/master/w_500/guns-bureau-gq-0916-011.jpg)
 (https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gq.com%2Fstory%2Finside-federal-bureau-of-way-too-many-guns&t=guns-bureau-gq-0916-011.jpg)
 (https://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/button/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gq.com%2Fstory%2Finside-federal-bureau-of-way-too-many-guns&media=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.gq.com%2Fphotos%2F57be04dfff4e739d495a5749%2F1%3A1%2Fw_680%2Cc_limit%2Fguns-bureau-gq-0916-011.jpg&description=guns-bureau-gq-0916-011.jpg)

There is no other place in America where technological advances are against the law. Unless you count the Amish. Even if a gun store that has gone out of business hands over records that it had kept on computer files, Charlie can't use them. He has to have the files printed out, and then the ladies take pictures of them and store them that way. Anything that allows people to search by name is verboten.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-30, 16:52:38
Breaking into the emails of the Sec. of State has always been a crime.
Hillary's emails were hacked? From her private non-government server? :) Do tell, where is the evidence of that? Podesta's GMail account was phished; he or one of his subordinates changed the password... Bright, huh?
The DNC "lost" emails. (Like I said, likely a whistle-blower...) But the DNC is a private organization. (I've heard the RNC was "hacked". But nothing of interest was found...) :)

Like Reagan said years ago: "It's not that the Liberals don't know anything... It's that so much of what they know ain't so."

Putin responded to Obama's expulsion of 35 Russian "diplomats" with class (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-russia-cyber-idUSKBN14I1TY). :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-30, 17:38:44
Imagine, without Putin's hackers Oak and SF would have casted their votes for Hillary.   ;)
Hilarious, krake! Thanks for that.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-31, 04:27:00
:faint:  No. That's exactly what we do know. Breaking into the emails of the Sec. of State has always been a crime. In fact, I remember giving you the exact law before. Do you really think breaking into a government communications isn't a crime?
BTW: I did want to mention this... First, you didn't do the "paper them to death" that you did here. You probably didn't even give a link or a citation. Which is to say, you misremember. Not unusual, Sang. Second, you're still ignoring the facts -- and focusing on the narrative: When Hillary was assumed to be a shoo-in in 2015, Obama -on the QT- said to Putin, "Cut it out!" (So he says...) Nothing was done, of course; another red line moment...

The idea that the narrative is "consistent" with what we know of Russia's capabilities is sufficient "evidence" to tag them with committing a crime? That's just sour grapes and wishful thinking...
(Of course they interfere with our "democracy" -- as we interfere with their "oligarchy"... That's what nations do!)
Again, Hillary's emails were not "hacked"! (Source: Hillary Clinton, testifying before Congress... :) I wish I could find the sound-bite... [I just heard it again this afternoon!] But, of course, Google is still in the tank for Clinton; it fits the narrative with the same criteria! :) It's been flushed down the "memory hole") Who are you going to believe? :)

Did you note krake's comment, above? :) Pretty funny, huh?

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-12-31, 06:47:53
I do have to say that President Putin did act with class, dignity and a far better way that President Obama who is no great loss to the White House. What Obama did was muck and Putin played a blinder in return and not falling into the usual thing in return. That just showed Obama up as a lesser person. America followed the rules of it's own system and is electing the Republican candidate and he wants to get on with Russia in the world so that in itself is mature and positive rather than the daftness of Obama. The raft of secret organisations in the US "for security" have not came out with any damn evidence. Obama in a television shown interview with media reps was challenged to prove Russia/Putin had done the interference in the political stuff. What did sour grapes Obama do? His answer was that nothing happens in Russia without Putin. That might please the un-brained but intelligent people know he cannot prove any damn thing and Putin is highly intelligent and experienced and did a cute dance around the White House departee.

The nonsense on Russia from a country that has spent decades doing that accusation nonsense is laughable. It also makes Obama look head-shaking because there is no damn proof andnow we have had a coulpe of reports in Europe that they might be getting the same thing from Russia as well. You couldn't make this idiocy up if there were not millions of simpletons who take in anything.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-31, 08:16:41
The nonsense on Russia from a country that has spent decades doing that accusation nonsense is laughable.
Of course you know GB (and other European powers pioneered such tactics... :) )
Other than that, I agree with the entirety of you post above...
Except maybe
What did sour grapes Obama do? His answer was that nothing happens in Russia without Putin.
Okay, I've re-thought that: If Hillary is finally brought to justice, BO follows her into the dock! :)
I'd agree with Trump that Putin is smart. But -damn- he ain't that smart: Most of what happens in Russia is beyond his ken; it's the nature of power!
He reacts when he must, to things that took him  by surprise. (BTW: He'll get along quite well with Trump, who he didn't expect to see again, except on TV... :) ) Oligarchs can be surprised, too, you know!

(I'm still not a fan of Trump. But I'm will to see what four years will bring.)

I'd asked this (elsewhere, I think...) but didn't your PM May just take a snipe at Obama and the UN for their recent resolution "outlawing" Israeli "settlements" in the West Bank? (You know, the path two countries traversed to sneak-attack Israel in 1967? :)

Wiki says plainly (I'm going to do some editing... :)
Quote
n 1947, [the West Bank] was subsequently designated as part of a proposed Arab state by the United Nations (UN) partition plan for Palestine. The resolution recommended partition of the British Mandate into a Jewish State, an Arab State, and an internationally administered enclave of Jerusalem; a broader region of the modern-day West Bank was assigned to the Arab State. The resolution designated the territory described as "the hill country of Samaria and Judea" (including what is now also known as the "West Bank") as part of the proposed Arab state, but following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War this area was captured by Transjordan (renamed Jordan two years after independence in 1946).

1949 Armistice Agreements defined the interim boundary between Israel and Jordan In 1950, Transjordan annexed the area west of the Jordan River, naming it "West Bank" or "Cisjordan", as "East Bank" or "Transjordan" designated the area east of the river. Jordan ruled over the West Bank from 1948 until 1967. Jordan's annexation was never formally recognized by the international community, with the exception of the United Kingdom. A two-state option, dividing Palestine, as opposed to a binary solution arose during the period of the British mandate in the area.The United Nations Partition Plan had envisaged two states, one Jewish and the other Arab/Palestinian, but in the wake of the war only one emerged at the time .[my emphasis]] King Abdullah of Jordan had been crowned King of Jerusalem by the Coptic Bishop on 15 November 1948. and granted Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank and East Jerusalem Jordanian citizenship.
In June 1967, the West Bank and East Jerusalem were captured by Israel as a result of the Six-Day War. With the exception of East Jerusalem and the former Israeli-Jordanian no man's land, the West Bank was not annexed by Israel but came under Israeli military control until 1982.

Although the 1974 Arab League summit resolution at Rabat designated the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) as the "sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people", Jordan did not officially relinquish its claim to the area until 1988, when it severed all administrative and legal ties with the West Bank and eventually stripped West Bank Palestinians of Jordanian citizenship.

In 1982, as a result of the Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty, the direct military rule was transformed into a semi-civil authority, operating directly under the Israeli Ministry of Defense, thus taking control of civil matters of Palestinians from the IDF to civil servants in the Ministry of Defense. The Israeli settlements were, on the other hand, administered subsequently as Judea and Samaria Area directly by Israel.

Since the 1993 Oslo Accords, the Palestinian Authority officially controls a geographically non-contiguous territory comprising approx. 11% of the West Bank (known as Area A) which remains subject to Israeli incursions. Area B (approx. 28%) is subject to joint Israeli-Palestinian military and Palestinian civil control. Area C (approx. 61%) is under full Israeli control. Though 164 nations refer to the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, as "Occupied Palestinian Territory", the state of Israel is of the view that only territories captured in war from "an established and recognized sovereign" are considered occupied territories.* After the 2007 split between Fatah and Hamas, the West Bank areas under Palestinian control are an exclusive part of the Palestinian Authority, while the Gaza Strip is ruled by Hamas.
You're familiar with some of this history, RJ?
----------------------------------------------------------------
* And you might have heard of the law of nations... Nah! But -if you don't like war- don't attack your neighbors! They get to keep the land you use to attack them from, if you don't kill them.
That's the main thing most people I know don't get: The Arabs attacked, they wanted to kill the Israelis... What were the Jews supposed to do? Lay down and die?
It took a long time for the Arab nations to learn this lesson... Oddly enough, the most powerful of them, Egypt, learned it first!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2016-12-31, 13:31:40
Okay, I've re-thought that: If Hillary is finally brought to justice, BO follows her into the dock! :)
But this would mean that for the first time ever this century, an American president would actually deliver on his major campaign promise. Trump's major promise was to jail Hillary. What gives you the optimism to believe he will fulfil the promise?

W made several clear promises (https://web.archive.org/web/20001109011500/http://georgewbush.com/issues/index.html). One of them, "The federal government is expected to run a surplus of nearly $5 trillion during the next ten years... As President, Governor Bush will pay the debt down to a historically low level." You of course remember what really happened: He turned the record surplus into record deficit in record time during the time of economic stability, before anyone knew of any crisis. That's not a filthy lying spend-as-much-as-you-can liberal we are talking about, but a rightist fiscally-responsible-nevermind-the-reality neocon.

Obama's clearest promise (perhaps arguably clearest) was to close Guantanamo. Now we know it's another "change" left to future generations to implement.

Why should Trump perform better? Is there a reason to be hopeful because his promise is so ridiculously lame and should be easy to pull off?

(I'm still not a fan of Trump. But I'm will to see what four years will bring.)
Probably you are not a fan of choosing evil either, but doing it anyway.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-12-31, 15:33:13
Hillary's emails were hacked? From her private non-government server?  :)  Do tell, where is the evidence of that?
WTF? Are you serious? Besides, they were still official State Dept emails, which was the whole problem with her using a private server. You're losing it. You know this, so I don't understand why you're posting so ignorantly.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-12-31, 19:24:33
Why should Trump perform better?
Congress? Oh wait, you were talking about the Hillary nonsense. Never mind. :P
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-12-31, 19:50:50
There are moments people simply goes mad. Trump is one of those moments.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-12-31, 19:53:11
It happens occasionally. Has anyone asked Trump recently whether he has any sense of decency?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1eA5bUzVjA
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2016-12-31, 22:50:25
No-one can beat America for it's world interference and computer or other electronic spying or interference. It thinks it has some built-in right as the self appointed so-called leading democracy (I'm stifling a giggle). The stuff about Russia is infantile stuff but when you see the way politics are run in the ex-colonies, child style parties meant to be party conferences, spying on American phones and other stuff it is head shaking. Now an electric company in Vermont is claiming that they "think" Russia has spied on one of their laptops! (one?). I do not know how Trump will do any more than anyone else whilst at the same time say that Obama was as nothing outstanding and even more confrontational than GW Bush. The morality of the new Presidency would be something if Trump did change the lives of the millions at the bottom of America who are frustrated and we will have to wait and see.

If trump can get on with Putin then that would be good for the world in general even though there are those on the republican side who are moaning and one of the outstanding ones is that utter buffoon Senator John McLean. That man is an out and out idiot yet got elected time after time which shows how brained too many Yanks are in the would-be wonderful political system. It makes you wonder how someone as dopey as him can get  such a place in politics but then US politics are unique but not positive.

The damn idea that the US must inherently lead the world is a wrong stance and it's on record both internally and externally is a complete contradiction to what it claims it stands for. It was founded by the corporates of the time and stil is part of their corner.  Any country that does not accept the US stance claims is in for trouble often interference and de-stabilising. When the USSR collapsed (hooray) America no doubt rubbed it's hands thinking they had another really big market for their corporate controllers. But when that did not happen they have been spiteful and Obama very much part of that,. There is no Obama legacy he was hopeless. If trump can get along with Putin then fine that is a positive progress for the world. America will have to get used to the hard fact that the world will continue to change and if the 2 Presidents can get to know each other then that is progress and Trump is clever enough to know that. Obama? no great loss so we now have to be patient rather than follow the daftness of US young with posters saying "he is not my President."
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-31, 23:31:05
WTF? Are you serious? Besides, they were still official State Dept emails, which was the whole problem with her using a private server. You're losing it. You know this, so I don't understand why you're posting so ignorantly.
Where is the evidence that these were "hacked"? Were they released to the public or just to the FBI? :) (And, yes, I did like Trump's joke when he said perhaps Russia could "recover" those 30,000 "lost" emails... I know you didn't; leftists don't have a sense of humor! :) )
Again, I ask: What emails of Clinton, when she was SecState, were "hacked"? Where are they? Where were they published?

BTW: If you think "the problem with her using a private server" was serious, why didn't you call for her prosecution? :) Oh! I know: She's presumed to be a progressive... So, everything is excusable.
Progress is all that matters!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2017-01-01, 04:02:32
Where is the evidence that these were "hacked"? Were they released to the public or just to the FBI?
OMFG :faint: What kind of gibberish have you been reading, or are you really a hermit like Howie says? Are your blogs really trying to press this meme? Read the actual news for once. no, your question doesn't deserve a better response than this.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2017-01-01, 11:04:40
Why should Trump perform better?
Congress? Oh wait, you were talking about the Hillary nonsense. Never mind. :P
Nonsense in what sense? Yes, Trump's campaign promise to jail Hillary is nonsense, but campaign promises are the way to assess the political track record of politicians.

It happens occasionally. Has anyone asked Trump recently whether he has any sense of decency?
Many did during the "grab them by the pussy, you can do anything" debacle to no avail. Decency doesn't matter anymore. Here are two evangelicals debating the point,



As we know now, the camp represented by the charming lady from American Values won, against the other camp who said, "We would not allow our children be around [such a sexual predator]... We wouldn't want this man as our next-door neighbour." Non-decency is an American value now prominently promoted by the morally incredible evangelicals.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-01-02, 00:10:41
America is enough bad, no need to get "evangelicals".
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2017-01-02, 03:50:27
Well this election highlights the moral bankruptcy of the evangelical movement. They excuse Trump's sexual assault on the hope of Roe vs Wade being overturned (not impossible, but it will take a damn good argument to get the Supreme Court to overturn it's own precedent even with whoever Trump appoints)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2017-01-02, 04:01:00
 Here's the 13 page JOINT ANALYSIS REPORT  (https://www.us-cert.gov/sites/default/files/publications/JAR_16-20296A_GRIZZLY%20STEPPE-2016-1229.pdf)of the Russian Malicious cyber activity from the Dept of Homeland Security and FBI. It even details for Oakdale how the emails were hacked (spearphishing, using malicious links to gather information such as passwords.)

 Further, it shows the exact code associated with Russian intelligence services that serves as their signature in their attacks.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-02, 05:15:08
Sang, I read this childish "power point" the day after it came out...  And when you say "shows the exact code associated with Russian intelligence services" you must know you only mean, as I said before, that it's consistent with the scenario... Of course, since that's your usual standard of proof, it won't matter to you!
Heck, why don't we go to war with Russia before the 20th?! Barack's well rested, after his Christmas vacation... :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2017-01-02, 15:04:56
Well this election highlights the moral bankruptcy of the evangelical movement.
Certainly the video I posted shows that the evangelical movement is not a monolith. It's not even a movement. On one side there are evangelicals, you know, religious people. On the other there are political pawns labelled evangelicals for no good reason.

In Europe, the equivalent of evangelicals is sects. Entire population is lukewarm to religion, only minor sects are religious. Who do the sects hate most? Other sects. So they are not a single movement. I'm quite sure it's the same with evangelicals in America too.

They excuse Trump's sexual assault on the hope of Roe vs Wade being overturned (not impossible, but it will take a damn good argument to get the Supreme Court to overturn it's own precedent even with whoever Trump appoints)
Nah. It didn't even take a good argument to make the precedent. It doesn't take a good argument to overturn it either. But the most likely scenario is that a bad argument will be used to keep the precedent in place, an argument like, "See, we made a precedent. That's about it."
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2017-01-02, 18:31:38
Oakdale, the proof the attacks originated in Russia is everywhere. This is not only from US intelligence agencies, but also from security firms (with I also posted their detailed forensics, more in depth than this report)
as I said before, that it's consistent with the scenario..
The code is consistent with cyber-attacks from Russian Intelligence agencies, not just this scenario. Do you get it yet, or do you continue to believe a hostile foreign power over your own government like a traitor to the republic. Also, do you even understand this IS NOT a partisan issue, multiple top Republicans share in the outrage. Do you understand this? At all? No, you don't because you read some incredibly idiotic blog that continues to poison your mind. This is transcendent of partisan politics, and like I said Republicans that would have blocked Hillary at even turn understand this is an issue of national security and the integrity of the electoral process. But no, you claim not to be a Trump supporter, and yet you read moronic blogs that even question if the hacks happened in the first place (or maybe it was ludicrous semantics game that tries to say a spearphishing attack isn't a hack?)

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2017-01-02, 20:21:20
@midnight raccoon fix the quote attribution before he sees it and possibly inhales whisky while laughing
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-02, 22:05:20
You're naive and gullible, Sang... I'm not sure doubting the speculation of political appointees qualifies as traitorous. :) About those Republicans who are saber-rattling, they've been doing it for a long time. McCain, specially.
Besides, Obama told Putin to "cut it out" in 2015... So, all should be well, no? :)

Our "democracy" was not hacked. Certain Democrat Party operatives said things in their emails that they should have been smart enough not to... Do you really think that's why Hillary Clinton lost the general election? :)
(For some reason her "basket of deplorables" comment didn't gain her many votes among the "deplorables".)

Wikileaks got DNC emails, most likely though a disgruntled Sanders supporter working at the DNC... (That's what whistle-blowers do, Sang: They blow the whistle on corruption.) Podesta (or an aide) gave his GMail password to somebody. And it turned out he said some stupid stuff. Woah. Stop the presses!
What else happened?
Not much.

Except Clinton lost the election. So, now it's all very important! Hey, if Obama could have run for a third term, he'd have beat Trump! Well, he said so... But if Obama wanted to be a ConLaw professor he would have published scholarly articles; he never did.
Your alternate reality may be a comfortable place, for you. But I prefer to observe it from the outside.

BTW: Phishing "attacks" are kindergarten stuff. Only the inane fall for them. (If Podesta gave his bank account access to a Nigerian prince, would that threaten our democracy? :) He was embarrassed because he said embarrassing things... Did it hurt the Clinton campaign? I doubt it. You never wavered!)

@ersi: Not to worry, I'm well familiar with Sang's rigor and attention to detail when he posts... :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-01-03, 02:29:09
Another Obama term would have been a drag.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2017-01-03, 10:54:27
@midnight raccoon fix the quote attribution before he sees it and possibly inhales whisky while laughing
Fixed.

Hey, Oakdale., on what points are the intelligence agencies and security firms incorrect? Do you even have a counter argument? Didn't think so.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2017-01-03, 12:22:33
 More in-depth info on the attacks on the DNC servers  (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/13/us/politics/russia-hack-election-dnc.html), from the beginning of the whole mess. I'll share the beginning, because it shows the FBI already knew the culprits from previous attempts (get it, Oakdale? Not a partisan issue, but one of national security. You'll see why)

Quote
WASHINGTON -- When Special Agent Adrian Hawkins of the Federal Bureau of Investigation called the Democratic National Committee in September 2015 to pass along some troubling news about its computer network, he was transferred, naturally, to the help desk.

His message was brief, if alarming. At least one computer system belonging to the D.N.C. had been compromised by hackers federal investigators had named "the Dukes," a cyberespionage team linked to the Russian government.

The F.B.I. knew it well: The bureau had spent the last few years trying to kick the Dukes out of the unclassified email systems of the White House, the State Department and even the Joint Chiefs of Staff, one of the government's best-protected networks.

Yared Tamene, the tech-support contractor at the D.N.C. who fielded the call, was no expert in cyberattacks. His first moves were to check Google for "the Dukes" and conduct a cursory search of the D.N.C. computer system logs to look for hints of such a cyberintrusion. By his own account, he did not look too hard even after Special Agent Hawkins called back repeatedly over the next several weeks -- in part because he wasn't certain the caller was a real F.B.I. agent and not an impostor.
At least this was unclassified info, but these folks have attacked the US government previously.

(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2016/12/14/us/14HACK-tear1/14HACK1-master675.jpg)
Quote
Charles Delavan, a Clinton campaign aide, incorrectly legitimized a phishing email sent to the personal account of John D. Podesta, the campaign chairman.
Why Podesta believed the email was correct. At least he doesn't consider 12 year olds as experts, as Trump does :p (yes, Oakdale, he does. Look it up :p )

Quote
"There shouldn't be any doubt in anybody's mind," Adm. Michael S. Rogers, the director of the National Security Agency and commander of United States Cyber Command, said at a postelection conference. "This was not something that was done casually, this was not something that was done by chance, this was not a target that was selected purely arbitrarily," he said. "This was a conscious effort by a nation-state to attempt to achieve a specific effect."

For the people whose emails were stolen, this new form of political sabotage has left a trail of shock and professional damage. Neera Tanden, president of the Center for American Progress and a key Clinton supporter, recalls walking into the busy Clinton transition offices, humiliated to see her face on television screens as pundits discussed a leaked email in which she had called Mrs. Clinton's instincts "suboptimal."

"It was just a sucker punch to the gut every day," Ms. Tanden said. "It was the worst professional experience of my life."

For Howie, the article does outline US cyberattacks to influence elections.

Quote
"Democrats and Republicans must work together, and across the jurisdictional lines of the Congress, to examine these recent incidents thoroughly and devise comprehensive solutions to deter and defend against further cyberattacks," said Senators John McCain, Lindsey Graham, Chuck Schumer and Jack Reed.

"This cannot become a partisan issue," they said. "The stakes are too high for our country."
Oakdale, note the partisan concern and agreement this is not a partisan issue.

Quote
There were aspirations to ensure that the D.N.C. was well protected against cyberintruders -- and then there was the reality, Mr. Brown and his bosses at the organization acknowledged: The D.N.C. was a nonprofit group, dependent on donations, with a fraction of the security budget that a corporation its size would have.

"There was never enough money to do everything we needed to do," Mr. Brown said.

The D.N.C. had a standard email spam-filtering service, intended to block phishing attacks and malware created to resemble legitimate email. But when Russian hackers started in on the D.N.C., the committee did not have the most advanced systems in place to track suspicious traffic, internal D.N.C. memos show.

Mr. Tamene, who reports to Mr. Brown and fielded the call from the F.B.I. agent, was not a full-time D.N.C. employee; he works for a Chicago-based contracting firm called The MIS Department. He was left to figure out, largely on his own, how to respond -- and even whether the man who had called in to the D.N.C. switchboard was really an F.B.I. agent.

"The F.B.I. thinks the D.N.C. has at least one compromised computer on its network and the F.B.I. wanted to know if the D.N.C. is aware, and if so, what the D.N.C. is doing about it," Mr. Tamene wrote in an internal memo about his contacts with the F.B.I. He added that "the Special Agent told me to look for a specific type of malware dubbed 'Dukes' by the U.S. intelligence community and in cybersecurity circles."

Part of the problem was that Special Agent Hawkins did not show up in person at the D.N.C. Nor could he email anyone there, as that risked alerting the hackers that the F.B.I. knew they were in the system.
The DNC didn't have the best security, but this does not make the alleged Russian attacks okay. What if it was the RNC, Oakdale?

Then there were problems with some trying to blame Bernie Sanders :rolleyes:

Quote
Shawn Henry, who once led the F.B.I.'s cyber division and is now president of CrowdStrike Services, the cybersecurity firm retained by the D.N.C. in April, said he was baffled that the F.B.I. did not call a more senior official at the D.N.C. or send an agent in person to the party headquarters to try to force a more vigorous response.

"We are not talking about an office that is in the middle of the woods of Montana," Mr. Henry said. "We are talking about an office that is half a mile from the F.B.I. office that is getting the notification."

"This is not a mom-and-pop delicatessen or a local library. This is a critical piece of the U.S. infrastructure because it relates to our electoral process, our elected officials, our legislative process, our executive process," he added. "To me it is a high-level, serious issue, and if after a couple of months you don't see any results, somebody ought to raise that to a higher level."

The F.B.I. declined to comment on the agency's handling of the hack. "The F.B.I. takes very seriously any compromise of public and private sector systems," it said in a statement, adding that agents "will continue to share information" to help targets "safeguard their systems against the actions of persistent cybercriminals."


...

(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2016/12/14/us/14hack-phishing-email-screenshot/14hack-phishing-email-screenshot-master675.png) Why Rinehart gave the hackers access to his gmail account.


Quote
But in 2014 and 2015, a Russian hacking group began systematically targeting the State Department, the White House and the Joint Chiefs of Staff. "Each time, they eventually met with some form of success," Michael Sulmeyer, a former cyberexpert for the secretary of defense, and Ben Buchanan, now both of the Harvard Cyber Security Project, wrote recently in a soon-to-be published paper for the Carnegie Endowment.

The Russians grew stealthier and stealthier, tricking government computers into sending out data while disguising the electronic "command and control" messages that set off alarms for anyone looking for malicious actions. The State Department was so crippled that it repeatedly closed its systems to throw out the intruders. At one point, officials traveling to Vienna with Secretary of State John Kerry for the Iran nuclear negotiations had to set up commercial Gmail accounts just to communicate with one another and with reporters traveling with them.
But the articles notes that Obama did not publicly blame the Russians at this point.

Quote
So the Russians escalated again -- breaking into systems not just for espionage, but to publish or broadcast what they found, known as "doxing" in the cyberworld.

It was a brazen change in tactics, moving the Russians from espionage to influence operations. In February 2014, they broadcast an intercepted phone call between Victoria Nuland, the assistant secretary of state who handles Russian affairs and has a contentious relationship with Mr. Putin, and Geoffrey Pyatt, the United States ambassador to Ukraine. Ms. Nuland was heard describing a little-known American effort to broker a deal in Ukraine, then in political turmoil.

They were not the only ones on whom the Russians used the steal-and-leak strategy. The Open Society Foundation, run by George Soros, was a major target, and when its documents were released, some turned out to have been altered to make it appear as if the foundation was financing Russian opposition members.
That least bit is interesting and agrees with what I said previously, if you can steal a document, you can alter it.

This next part is not as well known in the US:

Quote
Last year, the attacks became more aggressive. Russia hacked a major French television station, frying critical hardware. Around Christmas, it attacked part of the power grid in Ukraine, dropping a portion of the country into darkness, killing backup generators and taking control of generators. In retrospect, it was a warning shot.

The attacks "were not fully integrated military operations," Mr. Sulmeyer said. But they showed an increasing boldness.

Now we move on to "Cozy Bear" and "Fancy Bear"

Quote
Only in March 2016 did Fancy Bear show up -- first penetrating the computers of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, and then jumping to the D.N.C., investigators believe. Fancy Bear, sometimes called A.P.T. 28 and believed to be directed by the G.R.U., Russia's military intelligence agency, is an older outfit, tracked by Western investigators for nearly a decade. It was Fancy Bear that got hold of Mr. Podesta's email.

Attribution, as the skill of identifying a cyberattacker is known, is more art than science. It is often impossible to name an attacker with absolute certainty. But over time, by accumulating a reference library of hacking techniques and targets, it is possible to spot repeat offenders. Fancy Bear, for instance, has gone after military and political targets in Ukraine and Georgia, and at NATO installations.

That largely rules out cybercriminals and most countries, Mr. Alperovitch said. "There's no plausible actor that has an interest in all those victims other than Russia," he said. Another clue: The Russian hacking groups tended to be active during working hours in the Moscow time zone.
This is why the code in my previous post link is so important. Each hacker and hacking group has its own techniques that help identify it. That code is not only for this type of scenario, but who did it.

The article details how Guccifer 2.0, who claimed to be Romanian, was shown to be Russian. He's the one that posted documents to Wikileaks.

Quote
As the year draws to a close, it now seems possible that there will be multiple investigations of the Russian hacking -- the intelligence review Mr. Obama has ordered completed by Jan. 20, the day he leaves office, and one or more congressional inquiries. They will wrestle with, among other things, Mr. Putin's motive.

Did he seek to mar the brand of American democracy, to forestall anti-Russian activism for both Russians and their neighbors? Or to weaken the next American president, since presumably Mr. Putin had no reason to doubt American forecasts that Mrs. Clinton would win easily? Or was it, as the C.I.A. concluded last month, a deliberate attempt to elect Mr. Trump?

In fact, the Russian hack-and-dox scheme accomplished all three goals.

What seems clear is that Russian hacking, given its success, is not going to stop. Two weeks ago, the German intelligence chief, Bruno Kahl, warned that Russia might target elections in Germany next year. "The perpetrators have an interest to delegitimize the democratic process as such," Mr. Kahl said. Now, he added, "Europe is in the focus of these attempts of disturbance, and Germany to a particularly great extent."

But Russia has by no means forgotten its American target. On the day after the presidential election, the cybersecurity company Volexity reported five new waves of phishing emails, evidently from Cozy Bear, aimed at think tanks and nonprofits in the United States.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-03, 23:21:45
Nice "copy&paste" job, Sang! If you read the whole NYT's article, it makes the current administration and its political intelligence handlers, and the DNC, seem like clowns... Sobeit.
(You do remember, I don't consider the Grey Lady a reliable source? :) )
The administration of BHO is all-but gone. The Kabuki Theatre of it's concern for "national security" will soon be replaced.

BTW: Hillary still lost... :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2017-01-04, 00:24:57
"Both foolish and baseless"
White House fails to make case that Russian hackers tampered with election (http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/12/did-russia-tamper-with-the-2016-election-bitter-debate-likely-to-rage-on/)

BTW, what do members of a security board (most of them are US residents) think?
Link (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31164351-Did-the-Obama-administration-make-it-s-case-that-Russia-hacked-something)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-04, 02:10:15
Thanks, krake. (But of course Midnight Raccoon will claim that Ars Technica is a radical right-wing organization... :)
I specially liked the second comment to the thread:
Quote
Portions of that government doc may have been lifted or pulled direct from the CrowdStrike report/blog posting who were paid by the Democratic National Committee to investigate the attack. So I'd take the government's report, just like I take CrowdStrike's report with a grain of salt. Too much political BS involved by all parties to get a straight unbiased reporting of what actually transpired and who (be it state actors or some kid in their mom's basement) actually hacked who and when.
I, of course, do think the Russian intelligence services are playing "hack a mole"... As are we; and any other country that has the capability. (As a fellow said last night on a radio program: There was WW I, WW II; now there's WWW... :) )

I don't think Russia is America's friend. But -as someone said a long time ago- nations don't have friends; they have interests. (I'd argue that -for America- Great Britain and Israel are exceptions... But I do know that I'd have to argue!)

I'm so looking forward to January 20th.

Midnight Raccoon will claim that no such calendar date exists... So, Trump's presidency is illegitimate!)

So begins a new year. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2017-01-04, 12:51:57
I don't think Russia is America's friend.
There is no friendship between states. That's an euphemism.
There are common interests at best or coercion at worst. Neither of the two last forever...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2017-01-04, 13:54:25
Both foolish and baseless"
White House fails to make case that Russian hackers tampered with election (http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/12/did-russia-tamper-with-the-2016-election-bitter-debate-likely-to-rage-on/)

BTW, what do members of a security board (most of them are US residents) think?
Link (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31164351-Did-the-Obama-administration-make-it-s-case-that-Russia-hacked-something)
However addititonal forensics from Crowdstrike, which I posted previously, indicate that it's damn near impossible for the attacks to have originated from anywhere but Russia
I, of course, do think the Russian intelligence services are playing "hack a mole".
Than why do you use "hack" in quote when addressing me, as if there weren't hacks and otherwise act as if Russian crackers (a more correct term than hackers) didn't perpuatrate the breaches? Perhaps I was correct before that you experience cognitive dissoance. One one hand, you don't want to believe Democratic claims but on the other you know deep down the evidence points to the attacks originating from within Russia. You can relax on this. I told you before it isn't just the Democrats but also Republicans. The evidence appears damning. The malware code is designed to communicate with APT 28 and connected with an IP address only used by that Russian intelligence service. The metadata in Guccifer 2.0 documents is in Russian, despite the fact that they (to allow for the possibility that Guccifer 2.0 is actually more than one person) claimed to be Romanian. Russian actors have interfered with the US election. This is not acceptable.

I don't think Arstechnica is an organization at all. It's bunch of tech bloggers with varying opinions. For instance  here's  (http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/12/the-public-evidence-behind-claims-russia-hacked-for-trump/) another blog that from the same community that thinks in general Russia is behind the attacks but there's no smoking gun. Krake's link complains of the 13 page report, which only meant to be a summary for public consumption and not the totality of evidence.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2017-01-04, 14:03:54
 NPR  (http://www.npr.org/2016/12/14/505592238/cybersecurity-firm-confirms-russian-hackers-breached-the-dnc) interviewed Dmitri Alperovitch of Crowdstrike [/ur] on the matter. Alperovitch even notes the hackers are lazy, doing things that have been successful repeatedly and further notes this their achilles heel. This is how part of how the hackers were so readily identified. Krake's blog is correct that the code can be reused by other parties, but the same group uses the same code every time... He also pointed out that hacks on political organizations are not unusual. What is unusual is publishing the results. By todays standards, Nixon's boys barely did anything wrong by only stealing a file cabinet's worth of information :p
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-04, 23:49:58
Alperovitch even notes the hackers are lazy, doing things that have been successful repeatedly and further notes this their achilles heel. This is how part of how the hackers were so readily identified.
Or how hackers "identify" others as the culprit... :)

NSA is capable, no? Then why weren't these supposed hacks stopped? (Gee: Who does the director of the NSA report to? I forget, Sang. Remind me, if you would? :) And who does that person report to?)

Are you claiming that the result of the 2016 general election is somehow illegitimate?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-05, 01:18:32
Thankfully, the Obama administration is going away... So much silliness will disappear: Like the EPA asking its employees about their sex lives (http://freebeacon.com/politics/epa-asks-employees-theyre-straight-gay-something-else/?utm_source=Freedom+Mail&utm_campaign=3308181509-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_01_03&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b5e6e0e9ea-3308181509-46162793).
Who -in their right mind- would find this conscionable? (I mean, besides Sang -- who fears the government wants to "regulate" his bedroom activities! :) )
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2017-01-05, 15:58:49
Or how hackers "identify" others as the culprit...
What evidence do you have of this? This is far from the only piece of evidence. Forensics places the origin of the attacks as Russia. Or did you forget? No you didn't. You only weakly answered what you think is the weak point but are unable to answer anything else. It seems I'm the only one providing any information at all. Hell, you can't even explain why it is you're defending Russia even as you admit they're playing "hack a mole."

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-05, 23:58:13
I'm not "defending" Russia. I'm deploring the politicization of an issue that's been ignored for at least 8 years... :)
Again I ask: What is it you want?

Would you accept the standard of "it sort of looks like" and "it could be" as proof in any other context? (Well, yes: Any time a conservative is involved, you would!) Psst! Hillary lost... :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2017-01-06, 03:34:24
Would you accept the standard of "it sort of looks like" and "it could be" as proof in any other context?
Good thing that isn't the case. Maybe the problem is also technical. You don't understand the evidence I've presented. Or you've been so busy opposing me that you weren't actually paying attention the issue. I'm also aware there's a number of Trump supporters that think this about liberals not accepting the result of the election and engaging in name calling such as "snowflake" and "cupcake" over it (despite high profile Republicans coming to the same conculsions the Dems have, having seen the forensics data. In fact, Lindsey Graham called for stronger actions against Russia than expelling the diplomats.)  Make no further mistakes, the evidence is overwhelming.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-06, 06:31:57
You don't understand the evidence I've presented.
I do understand... It's what I'd call "suggestive". But I wouldn't go to war on that basis. Would you?
Why are you suddenly so interested in cyber warfare? Indeed, why is the Obama administration?
Oh. That's right: Hillary lost...

One wonders why the NSA and CIA and FBI were so un-aware. But not you! Until your candidate lost the election... :)
OPM lost -what? 23 million files? Yahoo! lost a lot more... Asleep at the wheel is not a good way to drive! But coasting seems to be endemic, nowadays.

BTW: YouTube videos of crying hysterics and violent protests in cities like Seattle gave rise to the derision you refer to, Sang. It's deserved.
Again I ask: What do you want? (You're not going to get a re-do of the election...) And your team, the Democrats, will do what they've always done: play for time, until they're in control again.
Like the recent commercial says: Obstruct, obstruct, obstruct!

Well, the next election might just destroy your party... (Of course, you'll blame the Russians!)

Isn't it your contention that -without the Russian "interference"- Hillary would have won? :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2017-01-06, 15:11:07
I do understand... It's what I'd call "suggestive". But I wouldn't go to war on that basis. Would you?
Who said anything about going war? You're being completely ridiculous. And you still can't offer anything relevant to the the discussion, I see. Trump might well surprise us all and actually be a good president. But it's not about him. Don't take my word for it, read up on why your Republican friends are upset about this too. They certainly didn't want Hillary to win. Do you get it? It's not even about Trump. Or Hillary. Get off your idiotic blogs, even the ones run by known members of a fascist party (that say Richard Spencer only has 300 followers and I show you his Twitter with much more than that and you still ask how that was easily proven false.) and go learn something.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2017-01-06, 16:04:46
I do understand... It's what I'd call "suggestive". But I wouldn't go to war on that basis. Would you?
Who said anything about going war? You're being completely ridiculous.
It's easy: If you can't start a war based on it, it's worthless!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-06, 16:46:04
You're being completely ridiculous.
You mean, I'm not being distracted by your hand-waving...
Nor by our "secret services" public pronouncements. The politicization of the CIA is a serious problem...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2017-01-06, 19:49:57
The politicization of the CIA is a serious problem...
Trump will surely put an end to this problem and make America great again. And put Hillary where she belongs. Right?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-06, 20:28:24
I remember when George HW Bush was the CIA Director: He did a good job of cleaning it up, then... Pompeo may well be up to performing a similar job.
His first challenge should be getting the agency out of the public relations business...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2017-01-06, 23:11:45
And put Hillary where she belongs.
Where would that place be?  :right:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2017-01-07, 04:15:18
You mean, I'm not being distracted by your hand-waving...
Where do you get this idea anybody wants to go war? This is a serious question. Maybe one of those blog gave fake news that somebody wants to go war with Russia? Who doesn't know such a war would be disastrous  and stands a decent chance of going nuclear?  White House Won't Call Russia Hacking an Act of War  (http://www.rollcall.com/news/politics/white-house-wont-call-russia-hacking-act-war) You won't be distracted by the facts when your blogs tell you fiction.
The politicization of the CIA is a serious problem...
The CIA is supposedly liberal or something now? :faint:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-07, 05:00:24
Yup! The CIA is, indeed, decidedly liberal -- as in committed to the Democrat powers that be.
Perhaps Obama can challenge Putin to a duel? Cream puffs and horse pucky, at 20 yards! :)
Hasn't Obama been president for about 8 years now? He never noticed how inept our intelligence services were, until after Hillary lost...
Again, I ask: What do you want?
What should happen, now that you believe Russia "manipulated" our democratic institutions? Not war; of course not! War never solves anything... (Ask Lenin. Well, he's dead. Might as well be a conservative, as far as you're concerned -- you know, like Bill Buckley. Ask Hitler. Oh, dead too. Tojo?) War often solves many problems. Don't ask Hussein or
Gaddafi... Another Cold War? Weren't we already in that? I mean, after the "reset" fizzled...
Some wag recently mentioned the progression: WW I, WW II, WWW... :)
I appreciate that you're "butt-hurt" over Hillary losing. But that can't be changed: Your party chose a loser.
Hey, here's an idea: Let's let our clandestine services do their work in secret! And have their masters hold them accountable.

So: It's not a difficult question, Sang... What do you want?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2017-01-07, 07:26:15
And put Hillary where she belongs.
Where would that place be?  :right:

You didn't really follow the presidential race, did you? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hbh2qXBMjuY


Where do you get this idea anybody wants to go war? This is a serious question.
Oakdale wants to go to war. Isn't it obvious, seriously? Because he brought up war out of the blue.

The CIA is supposedly liberal or something now?
Look how big and fat Pentagon is. It's obviously liberal. But the institution of the President has always been conservative - just one guy, the slimmest government imaginable!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-07, 20:09:37
Oakdale wants to go to war. Isn't it obvious, seriously? Because he brought up war out of the blue.
...Yes, out of the blue -- after Senator John McCain called the supposed Russian hacking "an act of war!"
[Or maybe the Democrat candidate, Hillary Clinton, saying on August 31 in a speech to the American Legion in Ohio:
Quote
We need to respond to evolving threats from states like Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea . . . As President, I will make it clear, that the United States will treat cyber attacks just like any other attack. We will be ready with serious political, economic and military responses. (my emphasis)
Gee! I wonder what she meant by that?]

I don't, of course, want to go to war; but we've been in a cyber war for years now...
That kind of war shouldn't be prosecuted by press release.

About "following" the presidential race, I don't read tweets and I didn't attend any Trump rallies. Nor do I consider campaign rhetoric that important; specially not off-the-cuff remarks. (Your milage may vary... :) ) Zingers present themselves, and some people are unable to resist using them. Well, human nature is what it is.

BTW, ersi: You have no idea how big the executive branch is, do you? :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2017-01-07, 22:32:29
Oakdale wants to go to war. Isn't it obvious, seriously? Because he brought up war out of the blue.
...Yes, out of the blue -- after Senator John McCain called the supposed Russian hacking "an act of war!"
I don't, of corse, want to go to war; but we've been in a cyber war for years now...
So you actually have ("suggestive") evidence of it to your satisfaction.

About "following" the presidential race, I don't read tweets and I didn't attend any Trump rallies. Nor do I consider campaign rhetoric that important; specially not off-the-cuff remarks.
"Jail Hillary" was not an off-the-cuff remark. Trump spent at least five minutes of the debate explaining how and why he would do it. And he had repeated the same in many speeches both earlier and later. He got suddenly silent only after he got elected.

Repeated so many times, it is not campaign rhetoric. It is a promise. Trump's website (https://www.donaldjtrump.com/media/lz-debate-squad-trump-the-survivor-comes-back) says, "Trump promised a "special prosecutor" to investigating Hillary's disappearing emails and said that she would probably end up in jail." (emphasis added)

BTW, ersi: You have no idea how big the executive branch is, do you? :)
So, for consistency, admit that W was as liberal as Obama is and that Trump will be none better.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-07, 23:07:22
So, for consistency, admit that W was as liberal as Obama is and that Trump will be none better.
W was indeed a big-government president... Your definition of "liberal" is -shall we say?- too liberal? And I see you've taken up Sang's habit of "prediction"! :)

Trump is not the president yet: We'll have to wait and see what he does, in many areas. With Pompeo at CIA and Sessions at Justice, I have high hopes... (With Mattis at Defense, I hope the god-awful F-35 is scrapped, and the A-10s updated; close ground support is an important mission... And Pruitt seems to me a good fit at the EPA!) But that doesn't mean I know I won't be disappointed!
(I remember when Bill Bennett became head of the Education Dept. in the Reagan administration...)
So you actually have ("suggestive") evidence of it to your satisfaction.
Yup! :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2017-01-08, 09:49:15
Your definition of "liberal" is -shall we say?- too liberal?
It so happens that it's your own definition. Your definition permits calling state institutions liberal or such. Mine does not. I adopted your definition for the sake of discussion for the time being. Now it's too late for you to learn to read.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-08, 10:40:15
I don't think it's too late for you to learn to read, ersi. But I doubt you have the ability... You have a knack for constructing straw-man arguments, and avoiding anything serious.
(Do you miss your position in the ministry of propaganda? I'll bet you do! Even though you "claim" to find your former Soviet masters reprehensible...)
I appreciate your rhetoric; but your logic has always been deficient.

It's interesting, to me, that that's what you responded to: You play with words that you don't understand; and, not understanding them yourself, assume no one else does.

But you and I are not Putin and Trump. We are not world leaders... Surely, we can come to an agreement about what's actually happening? Nah!
You'll take your "cheap shots" and I'll sometimes reply, without any hope that you'll understand. (Perhaps others are silly enough to read our exchanges.) How's Estonia doing, nowadays? Not yet the communist paradise you dreamed of? Oops!
I think Trump is right about NATO obligations; and Estonia is an ally. Should we, the USA, go to war with Russia if Estonia's borders are broached? In a sane world, no. It would be too dangerous. But, in the real world, yes. Estonia is an ally. We have treaty obligations... Surely, Russia knows this?
Well, after eight years of the Obama administration, they might have forgot...

Nations make treaties. Other nations need to recognize them, or face the consequences.

I don't see Russia and the US as adversaries, in most situations... We're both powerful nations who have interests. Recognizing those interests should be our focus, no?!

Easily understandable is that Russia needs "warm water" ports, which Mediterranean countries alone can provide; so they seek allies there.. (It would be silly to try to deny them such, as it was to cut off Imperial Japan's access to Middle Eastern oil before WW II... Yes, history teaches us some things!) And Russia needs more Russians... Demographics is killing Europe and Russia; maybe the US too.
Certainly, China.

It's a weird world we live in, ersi!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2017-01-08, 17:25:42
You'll take your "cheap shots" and I'll sometimes reply, without any hope that you'll understand. (Perhaps others are silly enough to read our exchanges.) How's Estonia doing, nowadays? Not yet the communist paradise you dreamed of? Oops!
Surely you can back this up with a quote from me. Take your time. Until then, it's just another cheap shot of yours :) Projection is the only thing that shines forth in your posts lately.

I think Trump is right about NATO obligations; and Estonia is an ally. Should we, the USA, go to war with Russia if Estonia's borders are broached? In a sane world, no. It would be too dangerous. But, in the real world, yes. Estonia is an ally. We have treaty obligations... Surely, Russia knows this?
And surely you can back any of this up with a quote from Trump. Meanwhile, German politicians held a meeting with Trump (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-usa-trump-idUSKBN14Q1AZ) specifically to figure out his foreign policy, but they were unable to detect any. I came to the same conclusion months ago without any need to meet him.

Nations make treaties. Other nations need to recognize them, or face the consequences.

I don't see Russia and the US as adversaries, in most situations... We're both powerful nations who have interests. Recognizing those interests should be our focus, no?!
You're right on one thing: You don't see stuff, in most situations. Get out some more. Other than going after booze, I mean. Glasgow would expand your horizons considerably. Samoa or Caribbean would be okay too, for a start.

Even the treaty-signing nations themselves follow treaties only selectively, so your "need to recognize them or face the consequences" does not follow in the real world. In the real world, the consequences to other nations depend on regional geopolitics alone, totally regardless what treaties they recognise or don't.

Putin has the ambition to dominate the world, at the same time being cautious enough not to start WWIII. Not too soon anyway, not before having convinced himself he can win it or something. Trump has no such caution. He only has personal business interests, no other thoughts or ideas or worries. Well, maybe some occasional "grab them by the ..." too. Trump's delusion as if Putin said nice things about him and respects him makes it all the more surreal.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-01-08, 22:23:37
And surely you can back any of this up with a quote from Trump. Meanwhile, German politicians held a meeting with Trump (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-usa-trump-idUSKBN14Q1AZ) specifically to figure out his foreign policy, but they were unable to detect any. I came to the same conclusion months ago without any need to meet him.
:lol:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-10, 10:39:21
Well, I recently ran across this video clip... Perhaps you erudite and superbly educated Europeans can understand "us rustics"... :)
https://youtu.be/g2H-9OmErYQ Nah! :)

I know that many Europeans think Americans are stupid; it's a reciprocal relationship.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-10, 10:50:12
I came to the same conclusion months ago without any need to meet him.
You've always done this: Your opinion is what it is; no evidence needed, none accepted. You still seem to think that you can "define" words to mean anything you want... :)
Hey! You must be a bigot! (I'll find out who you're bigoted against when I have more time... But I'm sure I'll find some group! And then, brother, you're in for it! :) ) You do of course react to posts (and arguments) in a very biased way: You just don't like some people, so they must be wrong!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2017-01-10, 11:16:06
I came to the same conclusion months ago without any need to meet him.
You've always done this: Your opinion is what it is; no evidence needed, none accepted. You still seem to think that you can "define" words to mean anything you want... :)
False. I followed the evidence. Namely, I followed the same evidence that the cited German politicians did, except that I took Trump to his word without going to meet him.

Meanwhile, where is your evidence? None forthcoming, I know, but you still have a chance. Take your time.

And good job misattributing the quote. Raccoon is redeemed now.

Hey! You must be a bigot!
Try a post without projecting next time.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-13, 02:12:26
As Victor Davis Hanson said: "On matters of foreign policy, Trump is not a realist, isolationist, or neoconservative, although at times he can sound like all that and more. Instead, he is a Jacksonian who wants a huge club at the Department of Defense largely to ensure that he'll never have to use it. And if he is pushed to swing it, he wants to flatten any who would hurt the U.S."
Expecting campaign or transition personnel to "brief" foreign defense ministers on our foreign policy priorities is silly beyond belief: The President crafts foreign policy, along with Congress. (I know: How quaint! "You mean a treaty signed by the President of the United States doesn't take effect until both houses of Congress agree to it?
 :) But that is how it works, here. No King, you see. No dictator. So sorry! No tickee, no washee... I mean, rules is rules, no?)
Of course, Merkel's administration wouldn't understand this...
I suspect Putin's Russia will; fairly quickly, if it doesn't already.

Do you find this a problem, ersi?
------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm fairly convinced that Trump won't highlight Obama's priorities: Climate change and Syrian refugees... (Oh, and federalizing local police departments. The so-called "Sanctuary Cities" may realize, quite soon, how such policies at DoJ will adversely affect them... Nah! They're oblivious: They think their "friends" will protect them from the consequences of their actions. Well, they're running out of friends.)

BTW: With 7 1/2 days to go, the Obama administration rescinded the "Wet foot/dry foot" policy (http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/12/politics/us-to-end-wet-foot-dry-foot-policy-for-cubans/index.html). That means that people who flee Cuba and make it to the U.S. are no longer considered refugees. Hm. I guess that "open borders" thingie means something different to Obama. :(

We won the island in a war; we should have kept it!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2017-01-13, 04:02:46
Have you considered the possibility that Trump doesn't actually have much of a foreign policy, beside being Putin's puppet? In fact Tillerson's testimony at his confirmation hearings reportedly left the Senators scratching their collective heads as to what the administration's foreign policy would be. You see, it's not an American vs European thing. It's more like a mentally stable people vs an insane moron thing.

I suspect Putin's Russia will; fairly quickly, if it doesn't already.
Sure, since their GDP fell from USD 2.2 trillion to USD 1.3 trillion in a couple years. You're might be right, though. Both Putin and Trump like to beat their chests as their countries burn. Maybe they play the fiddle, instead....
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-13, 04:39:21
Sure, since their GDP fell from USD 2.2 trillion to USD 1.3 trillion in a couple years. You're might be right, though. Both Putin and Trump like to beat their chests as their countries burn. Maybe they play the fiddle, instead....
I appreciate your concern for (the former Soviets...) Russia.
Is our country "burning"? Under whose control has it been? :) (Well, you did jump from the dire straits of Russia and Putin to using the plural: "their"... But you do that sort of thing all the time!)
Have you considered that Hillary Clinton lost her second bid for the U.S. presidency, the Democrats lost control of both the House and the Senate and most governorships and state legislatures?
That's a big Oops!
Doesn't it tell you something?
(I assume you don't know fiddle-playing...)
Have you considered the possibility that Trump doesn't actually have much of a foreign policy, beside being Putin's puppet?
(You do know how stupid your last clause was, right? Nah! Of course not.) Yes, Sang, I have considered the possibility. What's your take on any nebulous topic? :) Of course, I don't care. (You and ersi can haggle over how many of those angels can dance on the head of a pin...) Why should you be privy to our foreign policy priorities? (I mean, beyond that they're focused upon American interests... Which you probably reject, out of hand, anyway.) You have some special expertise or interest? :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-13, 05:03:21
But as an aside I'd ask: Don't you still want to know why sociology undergrads don't rule the world? (I'll tell you, if you ask.)

What's going on in America is easy to understand: The progressive coalition has collapsed; it's various "sects" are becoming vicious against their former compatriots. (As I told my son recently: The Dems will start eating their young, because that's what they do!)
Is there reason to fear the current Populism? Sure! Andrew Jackson was our first successful "populist"... He founded the Democrat Party!
(I certainly don't want that again!)

If our country (and you "snowflakes") can't handle four or eight years of Trump as President, why should anyone take you seriously?
Well, chances are that the Trump administration will change the world in ways you won't like. My advice: Hibernate!

We'll (probably...) wake you up. :)

But what was Barack Obama's foreign policy, before he was elected? Anti-war. Heck, he was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize before he'd done anything! And what did he do? Killed thousands of people with drone attacks... But, of course, Guantanamo Bay's security prison for "undocumented" combatants remains open; only the worst of the worst have been released, to wage war against us again...
Much like Obama's domestic immigration policy.
(Or against Europe -- but they're okay with that! Europe knows what it will reap: What it has sown.)


I do try to listen to your point of view, Sang. But it's become so "hate Republicans and conservatives" that I can't figure out how you can be so silly... Perhaps you'd have settled down, if Hillary had won; but she didn't.
Are you the next Dylann Roof?
If you want to know what Trump's foreign policy is: Wait and see.

BTW: What would Clinton's foreign policy have been?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2017-01-13, 06:57:43
As Victor Davis Hanson said: "On matters of foreign policy, Trump is not a realist, isolationist, or neoconservative, although at times he can sound like all that and more. Instead, he is a Jacksonian who wants a huge club at the Department of Defense largely to ensure that he'll never have to use it. And if he is pushed to swing it, he wants to flatten any who would hurt the U.S."
Pure speculation. No facts. Can Hanson show, as a minimum, that Trump has read a book about Jackson so there would be a slim chance he is romantically idealising him? By the way, "club at the Department of Defense largely to ensure that he'll never have to use it" has nothing Jacksonian about it. Jackson killed as many American Indians as he could and grabbed territory far beyond his arithmetic abilities. What prevents Trump being Jacksonian in this sense?

The facts are: Trump has no political background or track record, so he's not a political anything. He's a political nobody. He has no policies, particularly in the foreign/international realm. Most realistically, if his behaviour will match his words, we can expect about as bad a mess as we had with W. But there's no guarantee his words are any sort of guide to anything.

Do you find this a problem, ersi?
That you ignore all facts and prefer ideological speculation? It was expected, so no problem.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-13, 07:45:09
The facts are: Trump has no political background or track record, so he's not a political anything. He's a political nobody. He has no policies, particularly in the foreign/international realm. Most realistically, if his behaviour will match his words, we can expect about as bad a mess as we had with W. But there's no guarantee his words are any sort of guide to anything.
Welcome to the real world, ersi!
Trump will be the American President in eight days... Most everybody knows this.
Who will be the president of Estonia? Or the PM of Great Britain? And who cares?
Of course, Vlad Putin will still rule Russia...

You want to know what Trump's foreign policy will be, but you're too "insulated" to understand: He's an American. That, in and of itself, befuddles you!
Do you seriously think that nations only react to what they expect? (I assume you're a bachelor...) Get a grip:
The world isn't coming to an end. Only some very silly progressive presumptions.

(I'm surprised that so many Europeans are as butt-hurt as our American progressives... I'd been led to believe that they were smarter. Guess I was wrong to believe that!)

Again, I say: When Trump is President you'll see what his foreign policy is... :)
(Don't forget the example of Ronald Reagan!)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2017-01-13, 08:19:51
You want to know what Trump's foreign policy will be, but you're too "insulated" to understand: He's an American. That, in and of itself, befuddles you!
Everybody knows what an American is. It's something like this:
Who will be the president of Estonia? Or the PM of Great Britain? And who cares?
Of course, Vlad Putin will still rule Russia...
i.e. something like, "that's outside America, so who cares..." Now, everybody has noticed this about Americans. Have Americans themselves noticed this? Some have. You and Trump haven't. Is there something more you want me to understand? What exactly?

Do you seriously think that nations only react to what they expect? (I assume you're a bachelor...)
Wrong on both accounts, but you don't care and that carelessness of yours wins over anything else.

The world isn't coming to an end. Only some very silly progressive presumptions.
Ends of the world are usually (or have been thus far) limited to some continent or sub-continent. Such as those that W. arranged. But of course you see neither "end" or "world" about it, as long as it's outside the United States.

(I'm surprised that so many Europeans are as butt-hurt as our American progressives... I'd been led to believe that they were smarter. Guess I was wrong to believe that!)
You are wrong about Europeans and possibly about American progressives too (insofar as you identify them with Sang). But I doubt you care about being wrong. You never get out, except shopping for booze, so it's completely safe for you to be wrong about pretty much everything in politics, society, history, economics, etc.

Again, I say: When Trump is President you'll see what his foreign policy is... :)
(Don't forget the example of Ronald Reagan!)
That's not what you said earlier. You have quoted various pundits speculating various things disregarding facts and rationality. And right here you are implying Trump will be like Ronald Reagan. If you mean Reagan's invasion to Grenada for no other reason but to piss of his closest ally (Thatcher of UK), covert war against Nicaragua, etc., I might grant you a half-point.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Barulheira on 2017-01-13, 10:35:20
Expecting to find something about "what's going on in the Americas", I always find posts about the expectations on the next Trump administration. They should deserve a thread on their own.

But now, since I casually happen to live in the Americas, I'd like to add the following:

The facts are: Trump has no political background or track record, so he's not a political anything. He's a political nobody. He has no policies, particularly in the foreign/international realm. Most realistically, if his behaviour will match his words, we can expect about as bad a mess as we had with W. But there's no guarantee his words are any sort of guide to anything.

We already know how it works. Lula hadn't had any significant political background, and the expectations on his new administration as President of Brazil were quite disturbing. On the first weeks of his administration, it became clear that it wouldn't be as bad as it was being expected.

Now, several years after it finished, we've become aware that it was really disastrous.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2017-01-13, 10:58:42
Lula hadn't had any significant political background, and the expectations on his new administration as President of Brazil were quite disturbing. On the first weeks of his administration, it became clear that it wouldn't be as bad as it was being expected.

Now, several years after it finished, we've become aware that it was really disastrous.
That's like in the United States then - a single president can ruin the country in a couple of years (like W went from Clinton's historical record surplus to record deficit). In most European countries there are checks and balances in place, so ruining the country is strictly the domain of the parliament, out of reach of the prime minister and president.

In countries where the prime minister and president are the same person, like in the United States, the danger of abuse is the worst.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2017-01-13, 18:24:41
(Don't forget the example of Ronald Reagan!)
Oh, like Iran/Contra. Got it! :yes: Great foreign policy there, huh. Support Saddam Hussein on the grounds he wasn't a communist. Need I continue? But the point isn't even what Trump's foreign policy is, it's that we know nothing about this or hardly any of his policies. Trump says one thing and quickly says the opposite and denies saying the first thing, even when presented with video and audio of him saying it. Even high ranking members of his own party are frustrated with his behavior. There are only two conclusions that I can think of right now: he's gas lighting the whole nation (maybe doing so to the rest of the world is his "foreign policy") or that he's an un-selfaware psychotic that doesn't even know what position he took two days ago even was. Actually there is a third possibility, that he's a pathological liar that says whatever he thinks his audience wants to hear.

Now imagine if tomorrow I said Trump was an honest, sane man with coherent policies. You'd think there was something wrong with me mentally. So why is this acceptable from our soon-to-be president?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-13, 20:16:16
As usual, Sang, your rhetoric is over the top...
I get it: You don't like Trump! But in seven days he'll become the President of the United States. Get a grip: You'll have at least four years to gripe! :)
Oh, like Iran/Contra
Dealing with a feckless Congress is often problematical... :) (I don't recall you railing against the Obama administration's paying ransom to Iran to secure the release of hostages... But, of course, in your "calculus" Democrats=Good, Republicans=Bad.)
So, carry on, Sang!
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-14, 00:51:01
BTW:
Quote
WASHINGTON -- In its final days, the Obama administration has expanded the power of the National Security Agency to share globally intercepted personal communications with the government's 16 other intelligence agencies before applying privacy protections.
(read the whole NYTimes article (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/12/us/politics/nsa-gets-more-latitude-to-share-intercepted-communications.html?_r=0))
As always, unless he can use it against Republicans, Sang ignores it... :)

Whatever will he do, when BHO is a private citizen? (I'm pretty sure neither Canada nor Mexico would accept his "refugee" status claim... :) )
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-01-14, 13:05:46
Conclusion, there's really no difference about governance, the flies changes the shit remains the same.
Not an exclusive American problem but a general characteristic of post modern societies.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2017-01-15, 12:09:54
Funny. Reading some of the posts above one can get the impression that starting with 2017-20-2 the USA will be the first state on earth without a foreign policy. :D
This is stupid and also false.
Whatever the USA is, one thing is for sure - it's not a Banana Republic where long term geostrategic interests are redefined after each presidential election.
Therefore it makes little difference if the new President is an actor, a blowjob addict, an alcoholic or a pussy grabber.

Geostrategic interests are planned by long hand and pursued along decades, till achieved.
However during decades some things may change and the policies have to be adjusted to those changes. Such a change was the rise of the Dragon. China had an insignificant role for Zbigniew Brzezinski 40 years ago.
The dream of a monopolar world aka New World Order where the USA defines exclusvely the rules of the game won't vanish anytime soon even if Pokemon will be elected next as US President.
ATM there are only two significant players reluctant to such a monopolar world, namely China and Russia. The relationship between the two weren't the best in the past. However during the last decade the USA, through its foreign policy managed to drive Russia into China's arms. For the moment it's a win-win situation for both, China and Russia. Not so for the USA.
Trump is no more Putin's puppet than Obama was Xi's puppet.
There are at best different approaches how to deal with those two reluctant countries who dare to question the New World Order imposed by the USA.
The "carrot and stick" approach applied to China didn't work as expected.
Now Trump might apply this approach to Russia and 'concentrate' on the Dragon. Only problem, neither Xi nor Vlad are naive...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2017-01-15, 16:13:31
Geostrategic interests are planned by long hand and pursued along decades, till achieved.

American (very-)long-term foreign policy (namely, the Monroe Doctrine, roughly summarised "this hemisphere belongs to the United States") is not something to be achieved, but to be kept watch over.

This said, every new president in the United States makes his own little doctrinal declaration when he takes office. It's always basically the same Monroe Doctrine re-written, these days expanded to cover the entire globe and can be summarised as "United States protects its interests whenever wherever and our interests are whatever we say they are."

Of course US has a long-term foreign policy, but this does not negate the fact that Trump has none. Edit: Are you suggesting that when Trump assumes office, he will automatically inherit the goals, policies, experience and wisdom of the previous presidents? He might adopt a little, if he listens to his schoolers well, but the campaign showed he does not learn. He did pretty much everything that a presidential candidate must not do, and the fact that he won by this "strategy" gives Trump additional reason to do whatever he likes, never listen to anybody.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2017-01-15, 18:09:38
Are you suggesting that when Trump assumes office, he will automatically inherit the goals, policies, experience and wisdom of the previous presidents?
Wisdom of the previous presidents???
Whos wisdom are you referring to?
- W's wisdom for setting the Middle East on fire? Wonder how big the benefit of it will be for the USA in the long term. For now the only profiteer seems to be Iran... So what would be the next wisdom? Bombing Iran?
- BO's wisdom responsible for the mess created in Lybia and Syria? It seems that the only pillars of his wisdom were droning and regime changes. His foreign policy was a total mess.
The only geostrategic success was the staged putsch in the Ukraine. However the Ukraine managed to get rid of Crimea and apart of that the game there isn't over yet. Wonder for how long the bankrupt Ukraine will be kept alive with billions of €€€ by 'devoted' European allies...
So, whos wisdom are you referring to?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2017-01-15, 19:30:46
Wisdom of the previous presidents???
Whos wisdom are you referring to?
Exactly. I meant it ironically :)

And meanwhile I read up on the US doctrine stuff too. Decades ago when I read Kissinger's Diplomacy, it left the strong impression as if those doctrines were a real thing, an actual agreed agenda or policy documents with each president. Now, looking at Wikipedia, it appears it's a journalistic fiction or an ex post facto concoction of political historians. So you'd better talk about US long-term policy keeping the irony in mind.

Politicians want to leave the impression as if their policies were a rational or fixed or agreed thing. They are not. They are a delusion. Unfortunately they are a delusion of reality-changing sort. With Trump it's blatantly clear his head is like an empty bucket. No policies whatsoever, just random talk. And that guy will have the power to actualise whatever wanton whims may hit him. They will be wanton whims of a president, but this does not mean they are a policy.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2017-01-16, 09:47:24
@Ersi
- You are overestimating the powers of the president. There is also a Senate there.
- You are underestimating the powers of the deep state.

As for geostrategic continuity over decades - a short look at a map depicting US military bases abroad will tell you more than Wikipedia would ever do. Their number increased continuously irrespective of US presidents in charge.

BTW, "pivot to Asia" is a term coined by the BO administration. Trump probably won't use that term but his provocative behavior toward the Dragon even before entering office might give a clearer picture of what that term basically means. The nondiplomatic wording of it could as well be "meddling in Asia".
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2017-01-16, 11:00:55
@Ersi
- You are overestimating the powers of the president. There is also a Senate there.
- You are underestimating the powers of the deep state.
You are underestimating what the US president can do when his party is in the majority in the House and Senate. For example, there was no rational justification to attack Iraq or even Afghanistan, but there was no force to prevent it. Also, the record surplus didn't become record deficit just so, but again because there was no force to prevent it.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2017-01-16, 12:07:18
You are underestimating what the US president can do when his party is in the majority in the House and Senate.
Only when his party is in the majority in the House and Senate.
That means that he has the consent of a majority and he is not acting on its own.
That's pretty the same like in Germany or other European countries.
If the chancellor has the neccessary majority he/she can wave through everything.
The mantra is - you have elected us and by doing so you gave us the mandate to do anything we consider neccessary. Period. 
That's actually what happens most of the time everywere.

For example, there was no rational justification to attack Iraq or even Afghanistan, but there was no force to prevent it.
Not the best example to say the least.
As far as I recall most democrats were also for attacking Iraq. Same applies for Afghanistan.
Additionally there was also a coalition of the willing representing several countries...
So where from would you have expected the force preventing it to come?
As for rational justifications, they are most of the time a matter of perspective. If you kill somebody you are a murder and if you get caught you'll end up behind bars. If you flatten a district by dropping a bomb you get a medal for being a hero.
Believe me or not - geostrategic interests, new miltary bases, petrodollars or pipelines might qualify for some as rational justifications.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2017-01-16, 15:13:38
That means that he has the consent of a majority and he is not acting on its own.
That's pretty the same like in Germany or other European countries.
If the chancellor has the neccessary majority he/she can wave through everything.
The mantra is - you have elected us and by doing so you gave us the mandate to do anything we consider neccessary. Period. 
That's actually what happens most of the time everywere.
Actually, it's not like that everywhere. Most European countries have a multi-party system (3+) as opposed to two-party system.

The difference is significant, because in Europe it's hardly ever that a party (and the prime minister candidate of that party) wins the absolute majority. Therefore after the elections, the prime minister candidate (usually, but not always, whose party won the most seats in the parliament) begins coalition negotiations with other parties in order to form the government. In those negotiations, each coalition member concedes some points in their platform. This is a serious check on what the prime minister can do before he has even done anything.

In US, there is no such check. Whoever wins, wins regardless what is going on in the Congress, because Congress has no role in choosing the next president or shaping his agenda.

Another thing, in Europe, if the government is unable to push through their own budget proposal in the parliament, it means victory for the opposition's budget proposal, and the government MUST obey that budget. Mostly, this is such a painful thing to do that the government ordinarily resigns in such a situation. When has US government resigned in such a situation? Never. And never will. Their procedures are much messier and, if the president does not get the budget of his liking, they will simply spend like they did last year.

Clinton and Obama, even though mostly faced with the majority of the opposing party in the congress, never stepped down, whereas W had free reign and was able to swiftly bring about financial ruin from the starting point of record surplus. Given a (current) European political system, W would not have been so free to spend, on self-started wars no less, and Clinton and Obama would have had to consider resignation merely for not getting their budgets approved.

Moreover, in Europe after parliamentary elections we have a president (head of state) who APPOINTS the guy who will head the coalition negotiations to form the next government. Usually the guy is the leader of the party who won the relative majority in the parliamentary elections, but not necessarily. There are exceptions. In US, there are no such exceptions, because the winner becomes both president and prime minister in one person. Without anybody to stop him.

The situation is particularly surreal with Trump right now. He made the dirtiest campaign ever. He kicked out every campaign manager who tried to coach some decency in him. Not only did he behave like total scum against his opponent, but he behaved like total scum agains a lady. And then he won. Which apparently means Americans love it when you threaten, smear, and interrupt a lady. So, right now he thinks he did everything right, he thinks everybody loves him exactly as he is, and since we know that he has no political or constitutional checks to hinder him, he can indeed do whatever he pleases.

In Europe, dictatorship requires a Hitler who'd proceed as follows: 1. Physically lock away unwanted members of parliament. 2. Let the remaining members of parliament vote for constitution-altering laws and give extraordinary powers to the prime minister. 3. Done. In America, dictatorship for (at least) four years is guaranteed by the constitution, if you get elected the way Trump did, having the majority of seats in the congress already waiting for you. This dictatorship can be extended indefinitely if you can pull the strings like F.D. Roosevelt.

For example, there was no rational justification to attack Iraq or even Afghanistan, but there was no force to prevent it.
Not the best example to say the least.
As far as I recall most democrats were also for attacking Iraq. Same applies for Afghanistan.
If we go by party line, democrat opinion was irrelevant because republicans were in (narrow) majority. But yes, democrats were in favour of the wars too. This only means that US Congress can be thoroughly duped and brainwashed. It's just a matter of getting them into the right emotional state.

Additionally there was also a coalition of the willing representing several countries...
Such as Estonia and Poland, where the people and the government/parliament were diametrically opposed on the issue. Some issues are inherently class issues and remain so.

So where from would you have expected the force preventing it to come?
Nowhere. That's what I have been saying.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-01-17, 00:16:42
Both Krake and Ersi have interesting point of views about America.
Both are wrong but it doesn't matter.

A wrong European opinion, seems to be much better than a right American one...  :bandit:
Welcome to post modernity.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2017-01-17, 08:43:13
A wrong European opinion, seems to be much better than a right American one...  :bandit:
I'd very much welcome an American opinion here. A well-formed and informed opinion, not a partisan spout.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2017-01-17, 09:53:18
Oak and Sang are out of town.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/cd/ad/59/cdad59686480df2a8763cce441abdd23.jpg)

Let's see whose opinion will last.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2017-01-17, 14:21:56

I'd very much welcome an American opinion here. A well-formed and informed pinion, not a partisan spout.

There has been one,

Expecting to find something about "what's going on in the Americas", I always find posts about the expectations on the next Trump administration. They should deserve a thread on their own.

But now, since I casually happen to live in the Americas, I'd like to add the following:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Barulheira on 2017-01-17, 16:56:58
Thanks to SmileyFaze, there's a new thread well suited to this discussion.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2017-01-17, 18:59:44

I'd very much welcome an American opinion here. A well-formed and informed pinion, not a partisan spout.

There has been one,

Expecting to find something about "what's going on in the Americas", I always find posts about the expectations on the next Trump administration. They should deserve a thread on their own.

But now, since I casually happen to live in the Americas, I'd like to add the following:
That's American, but South. If there's a thread for it, it's this one.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-18, 00:58:48
That's American, but South. If there's a thread for it, it's this one.
Agreed, jax!
@Barulheira: I don't think everyone would agree with your estimation of Lula's successes... :)
To remind you'all:
We already know how it works. Lula hadn't had any significant political background, and the expectations on his new administration as President of Brazil were quite disturbing. On the first weeks of his administration, it became clear that it wouldn't be as bad as it was being expected.

Now, several years after it finished, we've become aware that it was really disastrous.
And I specially like your preface (admittedly prompted by ersi's comment...but I'll take it as "stand alone," since that's how it's usually used! :) ) "We already know how it works": Indeed we do. The previous administration is responsible for all the failures of the current administration! :)
Convenient, for elected officials; not so much, for anyone else...
(But when you elect a union organizer and official you have to expect a certain level of corruption, no? :) If you don't think so, you are ill-educated.)
So: How are things going in Brazil, now that Lula is out? (You know: Things like who's in, what's changed and what are the plans being touted?)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Barulheira on 2017-01-18, 10:41:51
Who cares?
But, since you asked:
Technically, we still are under Lula's administration. Some months ago, his successor (Dilma Rousseff) was impeached and her vice-president (Michel Temer) is in charge. Summarizing, the bunch of usual corrupts is in charge again, replacing the new bunch of leftists corrupts that has been in charge since 2003.
When everything gets worse along an administration for so much time, you can't blame the previous administration. The whole country is broken. The government gets taxes as hell, and still it has no money to afford basic public services. It can't afford even the social programs it has created itself to diminish poverty.
The FIFA World Cup and the Olympic Games sucked public money for no good use, feeding corrupts and letting the people unassisted.
And there's much more.
The government blamed the worldwide economic crisis for all that. Remarkably, the country entered the crisis when all around the world it was gone.
My remark around Lula × Trump was to remind everybody that there's good reason to fear.
Thanks for asking.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2017-01-19, 09:27:20
The Clinton Global Initiative foundation is closing (https://labor.ny.gov/app/warn/details.asp?id=5801) its doors.

It's funny to see how the incoming money is drying out as soon as it becomes clear that there will be no Clinton in the power center.
So far about those 'charitable donations' offered by corporations and foreign governments.
BTW, among the top foreign donators I'm aware of, were the Saudis with $25.000.000, Germany with $5.000.000 and Norway (http://www.aftenposten.no/verden/Norge-bruker-20-millioner-pa-Clinton-111917b.html#.Ug9G9dL0FPA) with 20.000.000 (NOK).
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2017-01-19, 11:47:22
That this Clinton Foundation programme would be shut down was announced during the presidential campaign (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_Foundation#Clinton_Global_Initiative_.28CGI.29_and_CGI_U), Of course the Trump-Assange Media Group has tried to take the credit for that. 
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2017-01-19, 12:12:59
From the source you gave:

Quote
In August 2016, with less than 90 days before the upcoming presidential election, the Clinton Foundation announced that it will stop accepting foreign donations if Clinton is elected.
AFAIK Clinton wasn't elected.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2017-01-19, 12:54:15
You confuse the Clinton Foundation with the Clinton Global Initiative. The latter is being shut down, as intended.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2017-01-19, 13:38:05
By quoting your own source you are telling me now that I'm confusing the foundations. That's funny.
Is "The Observer" also confusing the foundations?
The Clinton Foundation Shuts Down Clinton Global Initiative (http://observer.com/2017/01/the-clinton-foundation-shuts-down-clinton-global-initiative/)

BTW,
   
Quote
The Clinton Global Initiative was created in 2005 to serve as a networking platform for the Clinton Foundation.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2017-01-19, 14:32:29
The Clinton Global Initiative is being shut down, as intended. There are no indications of any change of direction for the Clinton Foundation.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2017-01-20, 11:07:14
That's like in the United States then - a single president can ruin the country in a couple of years (like W went from Clinton's historical record surplus to record deficit).
I did take a look, just out of curiosity.  ;)
US national dept amounted 5,7 trillion USD at the beginning of G.W.Bush's presidency.
G.W. Bush managed to almost double those 5.7 trillions to 10,6 trillions.
B. Obama did a nice job as well managing to almost double those 10,6 trillions to 20 trillions (2017 January 18 - $19.961.467.137.973,64).
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2017-01-20, 11:36:13
That's like in the United States then - a single president can ruin the country in a couple of years (like W went from Clinton's historical record surplus to record deficit).
I did take a look, just out of curiosity.  ;)
US national dept...
Debt is a different thing than budget surplus/deficit. In short, you didn't look at the right number. But nice try. Try again.

Here's a little something to help you out https://www.economics21.org/files/pdfs/commentary/08_20_2012_FederalSurpluses.pdf
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2017-01-20, 12:21:58
The US and Europe went in opposite direction after the crisis of 2007. Europe opted for austerity and the US (and China) for loose money. It is pretty clear that the European approach ended up more costly.

That said, debts will have to be paid eventually. It wasn't clear whether Hillary Clinton would follow her husband's debt-cutting turnabout, but the candidate the US eventually ended up with is estimated to increase the debts significantly more, if his program is to believed. That it probably isn't, but he is fond of tax cuts, very expensive programs, and getting reelected in four years' time, so I don't think much debt reduction will be on the agenda.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2017-01-20, 12:27:46
Debt is a different thing than budget surplus/deficit. In short, you didn't look at the right number. But nice try. Try again.
Here's a little something to help you out ...
And here is something for you to think about when speaking about Clinton's savings: The Myth of the Clinton Surplus (http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/16)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2017-01-20, 13:43:02
And here is something for you to think about when speaking about Clinton's savings: The Myth of the Clinton Surplus (http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/16)
When you redefine things (in this case, "surplus"), you can prove anything. Particularly if you are partisan. This guy is so partisan that even his own party is not agreeing with him. From W's campaign promises that I have quoted before in this thread:
Quote from: https://web.archive.org/web/20001109011500/http://georgewbush.com/issues/index.html
The federal government is expected to run a surplus of nearly $5 trillion during the next ten years...
They call it a surplus because that's what it's called in accounting.

The right way for you to learn economics is to study accounting (bookkeeping) first and examine its background assumptions later. And leave out partisan nagging. However, if you don't wish to learn about economics, then go ahead with partisan blogs like Common Sense American Conservatism.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2017-01-20, 14:08:02
It wasn't clear whether Hillary Clinton would follow her husband's debt-cutting turnabout, but the candidate the US eventually ended up with is estimated to increase the debts significantly more, if his program is to believed.
It doesn't depend on the candidate's program so much, but (also) on what kind of congress he is facing. For Clinton, the congress would have been hostile, like it has been to Obama.

For example, Obamacare is a miscarriage not because it's a national healthcare system, but because it's not a national healthcare system. It's a private health insurance system as before, just covering more people now with more support from the government. It could not become a national healthcare system due to hostile congress. Similarly, Hillary's program and spending would have been held in check by the hostile congress.

That's the only possible organic damage control possible under the US constitution - have a president from a different party than the majority in congress. There's nobody foreseeable to keep Trump's spending in check, just like there was nobody to keep W in check.

Edit: By the way, RJ has created this thread: US Economy - what do you think?? (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=2447.0)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2017-01-20, 14:41:57
Repealing Obamacare is an obvious first step but the support in his party for that isn't representative of the support for him. He'll have to survive the midterms riding on the coattails of pro partisan policy for a couple of years before trying anything radical. A second term feels dangerous.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-01-21, 04:29:10
By the way, RJ has created this thread: US Economy - what do you think?? (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=2447.0)
Former Representative Ron Paul has moved on... He's now selling freeze-drying mechanisms that allow you to keep everything from veggies to ice cream for 25 years!
What a savant...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2017-01-23, 21:30:41
A second term feels dangerous.
Not dangerous...impossible.

Who will the Dems run in 2020?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2017-01-24, 03:14:32
I believe there's a thread for such conversation. (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=2472.0)

I can offer my hopes. But I've considered getting a chamber pot for those.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2017-02-01, 18:24:23
Trump might bring on greater unity to America.

Outgoing UNASUR leader calls for joint strategy against Trump (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-02/01/c_136024294.htm)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-02-02, 04:26:20
Quote
The outgoing Secretary-General of the Union of South American Nations (UNASUR) Ernesto Samper on Tuesday called on the bloc to develop a joint strategy to deal with U.S. President Donald Trump's anti-immigration policies.
How about fixing your economies and government enough so that your people don't flee to the racist xenophobic hell-hole that is the United States?
Nah! Too hard. (It's a cultural thing... :) )
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2017-02-03, 11:47:54
First granddaughter Arabella sings a Chinese new year song in Mandarin, wishing everyone an amazing year.

Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-02-04, 23:07:28
(https://s30.postimg.org/7lq2xl1gx/1486235861942_der_spiegel.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/l2n1ggbsd/)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: jax on 2017-02-07, 14:48:56
The cover is fairly subtle and mild-spoken compared with the editorial.

Trump as Nero (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/a-1133177.html)
Europe Must Defend Itself Against A Dangerous President


Quote
That's why under President Trump, both the justified and the contemptible will be melded. Injustice is a major issue of our times, as are fears of digitalization and globalization -- and rightfully so given that the division of society and the speed of modern life is, in fact, extreme. Trump fuses these worries of his voters with nationalism and xenophobia. That's how demagogues work and it is how they become effective. The fact that the United States, a nuclear superpower that has dominated the world economically, militarily and culturally for decades, is now presenting itself as the victim, calling in all seriousness for "America first" and trying to force the rest of the world into humiliating concessions is absurd. But precisely because this nonsense is coming from the world's most powerful man, it is getting trapped by him.

This is not a threat that will somehow resolve itself. The German economy has become the target of American trade policy and German democracy is ideologically antithetical to Trump's vision. But even here, in the middle of Germany, right-wing extremists are trying to give him a helping hand. It is high time that we stand up for what is important: democracy, freedom, the West and its alliances.

This does not mean escalation or that we must abandon our contacts with America and all the working groups between our governments. What is does mean, though, is that Europe must grow stronger and start planning its political and economic defenses. Against America's dangerous president.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2017-02-07, 20:53:09
The cover is fairly subtle...
Hmm, depicting Trump as Jihadi John - something fairly subtle?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-02-07, 22:43:20
 :lol: Indeed...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-02-08, 02:19:40
[...] trying to force the rest of the world into humiliating concessions [...]
Histrionics seems to be the usual mode of expression, nowadays. :)
I prefer to call it "getting one's panties in a twist"...

What, btw, were the egregious assaults on the German economy, from the Trump administration's all-of 17 days of power?

We went through Reagan Derangement Syndrome, Clinton Derangement Syndrome, Bush Derangement Syndrome and Obama Derangement Syndrome. So, we now have Trump Derangement Syndrome... :)
But I don't have to suffer its full effects: I've been vaccinated! (I'm a conservative...)

President Trump will be successful or not. Am I to feel ashamed, for wanting him to succeed? I'm in favor of many of his policies... Am I to be castigated, for wanting my country to prosper -- both economically and politically? I'm an American, not a European... :)

As John Quincy Adams said a long time ago: America is the friend of Liberty everywhere! But we are the protectors only of our own.
I think that's how it should be. And it sorta sounds like "America First" to me...
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Barulheira on 2017-02-08, 14:07:23
That's a nice post. I can understand your preferences.
IMO the problem is: you had to elect a lunatic to do the job.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2017-02-08, 17:25:52
I'm not a fan of Trump but I wasn't Obama's fan either.
I despise falsehood and hypocrisy wherever it comes from, be it my own country, Europe or the USA.
"Der Spiegel" can hardly be topped as far falsehood and hypocrisy goes.
Just one example even so I could come up with several - Trump's Muslim ban.
Granted it was stupid but the chosen countries were exactly those demonised by the former administration.
Exactly as Obama, he left out the biggest sponsor and ideologic mentor for terrorists, namely the Saudis.
While Trump's Muslim ban produced a mass hysteria in our media, the aprox 1.5 million Muslims killed by the USA during the past 15 years have been 'politely' ignored by the same media.
As for the Spiegel's cover-cartoon:
America Has Been At War 93% of the Time - 222 Out of 239 Years - Since 1776 (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/02/america-war-93-time-222-239-years-since-1776.html)
None of those false and hypocritical pen pushers from "Der Spiegel" would ever come up with the idea of a cover for their tabloid like that below.
   
   (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalresearch.ca%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F10%2FWar-USA-400x293.jpg&hash=573cef8ad7e499798bfbb2c9dbc9c408" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.globalresearch.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/War-USA-400x293.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Barulheira on 2017-02-08, 19:47:27
America Has Been At War 93% of the Time - 222 Out of 239 Years - Since 1776 (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/02/america-war-93-time-222-239-years-since-1776.html)
And 100% of the centuries.
Just sayin'. :left:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-02-12, 00:35:21
None of those false and hypocritical pen pushers from "Der Spiegel" would ever come up with the idea of a cover for their tabloid like that below.
I think that "pen pusher" Der Spiegel's cover with Trump cutting liberty's head is much better than your meaningless image at any way you can consider.

Which is not an endorsment for Der Spiegel editorial line that I don't know nothing about.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2017-02-12, 11:09:55
I think that "pen pusher" Der Spiegel's cover with Trump cutting liberty's head is much better than your meaningless image at any way you can consider.
Each to his own. :)
And since we are at cartoons:

(https://propagandaschau.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/spiegel_obama_first570.png?w=529&h=731)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2017-02-12, 11:11:15
US Tennis Association apologise for playing BANNED version of German national anthem. (http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/11/us-tennis-association-apologise-for-playing-banned-version-of-german-anthem-6442820/)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Barulheira on 2017-02-13, 10:47:57
It's more fashionable to sing "Deutschland first".
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2017-02-14, 17:26:29
Anybody heard before about a country named Limpopo?
Don't worry, you didn't because it's neither a NATO member state nor does such a country exist.

Congresswoman Maxine Waters pranked:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: ersi on 2017-02-14, 18:49:09
Not a happy day for Ku Klux Klan.
Quote from: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/13/us/kkk-leader-death-frank-ancona.html
Frank Ancona, the professed leader of the Traditionalist American Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, was shot and killed in Missouri last week in what officials called a "tragic and senseless act of violence." His wife and stepson were charged in his death on Monday.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Barulheira on 2017-02-14, 19:18:13
"tragic (and not so senseless) act of violence."
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-02-14, 23:14:45
Anybody heard before about a country named Limpopo?
Yes, I know perfectly Limpopo. It was part of the Transvaal, not a country.
Have you ever heard about Transvaal?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2017-02-15, 08:18:44
Have you ever heard about Transvaal?
Wow! Your erudition is fucking awesome.
You can sit down now.  :lol:
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: krake on 2017-02-15, 12:08:06
The ultimative chance to make money with D.Trump. :)

All you have to do is LOGIN & BET (http://www.paddypower.com/bet/politics/other-politics/us-politics?ev_oc_grp_ids=2657726)

BTW, an insider tip from Politico (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/02/hillary-clinton-is-running-for-president-again-214766): Hillary Clinton will run for president. Again.
However, if you'd ask an outsider like me - princess Tulsi Gabbard (http://www.strategic-culture.org/images/news/2017/01/31/or-38559.jpg) looks more human. :)
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2017-02-16, 15:24:33
Yeah, I've seen bets on Trump's impeachment. I wonder if the odds changed this week?
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2017-02-16, 15:27:44
BTW, an insider tip from Politico (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/02/hillary-clinton-is-running-for-president-again-214766): Hillary Clinton will run for president. Again.
Let's hope not :p Well maybe she can get knocked out the primaries.
Title: Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Post by: Mr. Tennessee on 2017-02-17, 17:50:17