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General => DnD Central => Topic started by: jax on 2017-11-20, 09:40:38

Title: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2017-11-20, 09:40:38
This thread is about new members entering (e.g. Croatia) and old members leaving (e.g. Britain) the Union, as well as other moves and changes in the European collective collective.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2017-11-20, 10:13:50
Today is a day to divvy up the spoils. With Brexit EU agencies will leave Britain, and 19 European cities are competing to grab European Medicines Agency (EMA) and 8 cities are fighting over the European Banking Authority (EBA). 

Politico has an overview of the election procedure, How to watch the Brexit battle for EU agencies like a pro (https://www.politico.eu/article/ema-eba-how-to-watch-the-brexit-battle-for-eu-agencies-like-a-pro/) and helpfully comes up with the bookies' odds. Fight! It's the EU agency free-for-all (https://www.politico.eu/article/contest-for-eu-agencies-after-brexit-becomes-free-for-all-as-vote-nears/)
Quote
For the EMA:Milan -- 2/1
Bratislava -- 5/1
Lille -- 6/1
Amsterdam -- 10/1
Copenhagen -- 10/1
Vienna -- 10/1
Barcelona -- 16/1
Dublin -- 16/1
Helsinki -- 16/1
Porto -- 16/1
Stockholm -- 16/1
Bonn -- 20/1
Warsaw -- 20/1
Zagreb -- 20/1
Athens -- 25/1
Brussels -- 25/1
Bucharest -- 25/1
Sofia -- 25/1
Valletta -- 33/1

For the EBA:
Frankfurt -- 6/4
Vienna -- 2/1
Dublin -- 5/1
Paris -- 8/1
Prague -- 16/1
Warsaw -- 16/1
Brussels -- 20/1
Luxembourg City -- 20/1
Frankfurt is too far ahead of any other to be much of a competition, but my guess Milan won't get EMA. Which one will get it is harder to say. The Nordic cities have significant medical clusters, but here it's every city for themselves. Stockholm would love to get it, but by participating they make it less likely that Copenhagen would win, likewise with Helsinki's candidature. My guess is Amsterdam or Bratislava (Bratislava is very close to Vienna, but lower cost and wider bloc support). Amsterdam is closer to Britain geographically and culturally, and a cluster of its own. Schiphol is a major hub. While Bratislava is 39 minutes away from Vienna Airport, and 17 minutes away from Bratislava airport, neither are exactly major ones. 
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-11-20, 14:31:37
Perhaps not a major hub, but I did have several layovers in Vienna Airport before ever visiting the city itself.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2017-11-20, 14:49:43
By all means, I prefer medium-sized airports to the huge ones for user experience. Heathrow is my least favourite airport i Europe, followed by Charles De Gaulle. Schiphol is number three or four I guess.

For its size I kind of like Schiphol, but all of these have more stress and more walking, while the medium-sized one are smooth and efficient, at least the better ones. I actually haven't been to Vienna airport, but my wife passed through yesterday and liked it. Outbound the transfer was around 50 minutes, which would have been touch-and-go with Heathrow, and a bit stressful in Schiphol, but with plenty of time to spare in Vienna.

Anyway, a medium-sized airport can't compete with the number of departures, so that would be a drawback for an agency that presumably should have good connections to all member countries. 
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-11-20, 19:22:46
Well I am glad that my nation will in due course be no longer with the shambles known as the EU. It never gets it's books cleared annually and is still in financial problems. I look forward to saying cheerio to it and meantime plan my third trip to the Netherlands!
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2017-11-20, 20:50:03
Today is a day to divvy up the spoils. With Brexit EU agencies will leave Britain, and 19 European cities are competing to grab European Medicines Agency (EMA) and 8 cities are fighting over the European Banking Authority (EBA).

Politico has an overview of the election procedure, How to watch the Brexit battle for EU agencies like a pro (https://www.politico.eu/article/ema-eba-how-to-watch-the-brexit-battle-for-eu-agencies-like-a-pro/) and helpfully comes up with the bookies' odds. Fight! It's the EU agency free-for-all (https://www.politico.eu/article/contest-for-eu-agencies-after-brexit-becomes-free-for-all-as-vote-nears/)
In case you wondered, and of course you did: My hedged bet for EMA was right, Amsterdam will be the new home of EMA (Milan came second, Copenhagen third), while more surprisingly Paris got EBA (Frankfurt second, Dublin third). While Paris like to present themselves as the new London, I didn't expect them to have this pull. 
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-11-20, 21:54:03
Well it doesn't bother me at all as that was "oak" us being in that financial backwater the EU. They can move the offices where they like as we won't be in the damn club.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2017-11-21, 18:35:12
In case you wondered, and of course you did:
Of course!
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2017-11-21, 19:21:01
Quote
Airbus boss says Brexit risks losing UK aviation's 'crown jewels' to China

UK operations chief tells MPs trade barriers and restricted movement for staff will put thousands of jobs in Wales at risk


(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/fa574d28569ca6632bc67d7b10ef1c48f45f26bb/0_146_4368_2621/master/4368.jpg?w=620&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=79733c93ab5e153784424c036aee662a)

The Airbus factory in Broughton, North Wales pictured in 2006. Photograph: David Levene for the Guardian

Airbus has told MPs that Britain risks losing the "crown jewels" of its aviation industry to China as a result of Brexit (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/eu-referendum), putting up to 7,000 wing-manufacturing jobs in Wales at risk.

The company's senior corporate representative in the UK warned the business select committee that the threat of new customs bureaucracy and reduced employee mobility could deter long-term investment and accelerate a shift to Asia.

Though there are no current plans to move, Katherine Bennett said, she was "fighting to ensure that wing design - the crown jewels of aerospace - remains in this country".

"I need to let you know, committee, that other countries would dearly love to design and build wings," she told MPs. "Some of them already do; we do build wings in China (https://www.theguardian.com/world/china) now, and believe you me they are knocking at the door as a result of the situation we are in in this country.

"Every single thing we export goes into the EU - we don't export anywhere else - so non-tariff barriers are a really big thing for us," added Bennet. "[This is] yet another burden going on my shoulder when I am putting a good case for the UK". (The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/21/airbus-boss-says-brexit-risks-losing-uk-aviations-crown-jewels-to-china))

There has getting more of those warnings lately as companies are starting to panic and negotiations are not pulling up to speed. How many will actually act on those remains to be seen, with the timer set to 493 days left to Brexit, while 515 days have gone since the referendum. 
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-11-21, 23:16:46
and meantime plan my third trip to the Netherlands!
Just to remember you that, as a non European member, you'll need to wait in the queue with arabs, africans and others like you in order to enter. I've heard the policemen at Schipool aren't too much gentle with your kind of people.
Enjoy. :)
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-11-21, 23:22:13
Amsterdam will be the new home of EMA
Cities prostitution.
EMA and all the other euro-bureaucrats should be sent to Antarctica, right to the middle of pinguins. Others more radical than me would sent them directly to Auschevitz.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2017-11-23, 08:19:16
Quote from: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/21/airbus-boss-says-brexit-risks-losing-uk-aviations-crown-jewels-to-china
Every single thing we export goes into the EU - we don't export anywhere else...
Didn't somebody recently say something about the Commonwealth? :) )Eh, RJ?)

@Belfrager: Please start taking your meds again!
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-11-24, 00:14:03
Funny to watch an American to say to the founders of Europe to take medicines...
This is really a nice cabaret but I wonder when the naked women will finally appear...
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-11-24, 00:33:36
firstly Belfrager. I am not bothered o the queue matter as my country hyas more than done it's bit to subsidise the nations that  could only exist with the begging bowl (know what I mean?!). And to dear OakdaleFTL - I got a laugh with you using the Guardian newspaper which is a leftist bundle of rubbish. You of all people? The Commonwealth is more important to me and millions of others than the damn financial mess that is the EU.  :happy:
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: krake on 2017-11-24, 11:17:32
Just to your info.
Since the Guardian changed ownership it ceased to be what it once was and became the same "bundle of rubbish" as the rest of your and our guided mass media. So far you are almost right. :)
BTW, those who miss the old Guardian may check Off Guardian (https://off-guardian.org/).
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-11-25, 01:14:45
It is still lefty dear trying hard man. Neither is it's circulation going up either and there are times I wonder if they secretly run the BBC. As for rubbish generally here in GB you should already have some idea of media rubbish over in the ex-colonies. They are so much string pulled by the corporate barons over there and the average Yank is brained under clever propaganda. Time and time again over they years when your people are interviewed on the street by what is happening elsewhere through the news they are lost. All the daft nonsense on Russia pulling election strings is laughable and the way your media waxes on the stuff is laughable. There are aspects in our media I do not like including television and papers both of which do not always report fairly but you have no basis for being smug over there!
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2017-11-26, 11:10:21
Just to your info.
Since the Guardian changed ownership it ceased to be what it once was and became the same "bundle of rubbish" as the rest of your and our guided mass media. So far you are almost right. :)
BTW, those who miss the old Guardian may check Off Guardian (https://off-guardian.org/).

The Guardian, while left of centre, isn't so left-wing as to enthusiastically support Jeremy Corbyn.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: krake on 2017-11-26, 22:14:57
It is still lefty dear trying hard man.
Whatever "lefty" means to you...
Once Thales, a "lefty" Greek philosoper (I wonder if you ever heard of him), was asked which city is the best: "The one without too rich and too poor people."  :idea:
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-11-27, 01:13:12
And considering jax that the only main  stream left crowd is the Labour lot run by that Marxist clown says more. Maybe that might register with you. Please take note krake. It IS a leftist paper. originally it was called the Manchester Guardian and published north in that city and came from a Liberal Party kind of tradition. Then changed the name and moved to London but the circulation does not help it much financially and is a continuous anti-Conservative stance.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2017-12-05, 13:02:12
Brexit broke in the first round.
 (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42231497)
Theresa May fights to save Brexit deal after DUP backlash (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42231497)

Quote
Ministers are facing MPs' questions about the failure to strike a Brexit deal following a DUP backlash.

The DUP, whose support the government needs in key votes, said it would not accept a deal on the Irish border which saw Northern Ireland treated differently from the rest of the UK.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-12-06, 03:41:40
And as a staunch Unionist I agree with the DUP.

We have been very good to Southern Ireland and loaned them billions when they had that terrible financial mess. Happy to have a good relationship with that country  on the general Border matter and there has been a close association in both North and South of that geographical line covering produce, transport, power, etc, However Ireland is part of the EU and we are getting out so it is unfortunately Dublin's problem being in that association. Dublin is stuck with that European lot and it does finance them as couldn't do it themselves so at the end of the day them still being in the EU is i am afraid their sad problem.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2017-12-06, 08:38:35
Days left until Brexit (https://howmanydaystill.com/its/brexit-6): 478 (today)
Days since referendum (https://days.to/since/uk-european-union-referendum-vote): 530 (today)
Days since Article 50 was invoked: 252 (today)

Less than half total time, and less than two thirds Article 50-time, remains. The negotiations have barely started, and already halted. 

These four requirements cannot simultaneously be fulfilled, and the last two are unacceptable to Ireland. If Ireland says no deal, then there is no deal, and the UK becomes a third world country as far as the EU is concerned.


(1) is what the Brexiteers went to election on, (2) is a requirement from the DUP, whose support May's current government depends on, and for (3) and (4) Ireland holds the cards. Ireland (pop. 5M) has never been in as good a negotiating position relative to the UK (pop. 66M, of which NI 2M) as they are now, and they probably never will. They are not going to fold easily.

Short of giving N.I. to Ireland, which would break May's coalition, and requirement (2), they would either have to give Ireland what they want, or bribe them enough not to want it so much. THEN they have to bribe the DUP not to make too much of a stink about it. It's a good time to be Irish it seems.

Of course, if Britain sinks into the sea, that's bad for Ireland too, if not as much as for the British. And it would be bad for the EU as well, if not as much as for the Irish. There is a limit to Ireland's negotiation power, but I don't think it has been reached yet.

The economic rational thing to do would be to forego (1), the Norway option. Business would be happy, Ireland would cease to be a negotiation superpower (but for Ireland and N.I that would be a fallback to status quo, which is a pretty good anyway). Many of the remaining unresolved issues would disappear as if they never were.

The Hard Brexiteers would be furious though. It would be waving goodbye to brave new trade deals with India and Kenya. It too would probably be the end of May's government, and Britain would have been demoted from being the top power player at the EU to being a somewhat larger Norway. 

Not doing so, the Ireland negotiations will drag on, leaving less time for the rest and risking EU overtime. In that scenario every single EU country will become an Ireland.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-12-06, 09:21:55
Btw, don't tell the Brits they're using an airplane called Eurofighter.  :zip:
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-12-06, 21:16:47
The Eurofighter is not a Britishfighter, not even less a Brexytfigther.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-12-06, 21:24:03
and the UK becomes a third world country as far as the EU is concerned.
It is already.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-12-07, 05:33:44
Imagine a Portuguese coming out with that slagging assertion. Portugal IS a Third World country in practice! It had to be in the U to be able to use a begging bowl as it was not able to look after itself!

The situation re north and south of Ireland is an awkward one but Ireland has no right to try and take the moral high ground as it could only get on by being in the EU and getting money it could not unfortunately do itself. There are things shared across the border and fair enough but Ireland is staying in the messy EU and we are NOT. Obviously some sort of Border co-operation would be good but the EU is NOT making it easy or considering the situation on the island of Ireland.  A passing reference to the idea of giving ulster to the South is just a leaf in the wind as it will not happen and would not be voted on either.

If Europe is not prepared to consider the Ulster and Eire situation in a considerate way we will just need to leave the EU and unfortunately it will not help Dublin.  I accept that Ireland is trying to do something but they are in that damn Europe club which they need to be to financially exist and as i intimated we helped them financially as well.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2017-12-07, 12:38:23
Rankings don't really matter and Britain and France have bypassed each other a good number of times throughout history, but Britain has fallen behind France again.

Britain crashes out of world's top 5 economies (http://money.cnn.com/2017/11/22/news/economy/uk-france-biggest-economies-in-the-world/)

Both are well behind Germany, the only European country likely to remain in the top 8 in the longer run. Like the article said India is set to slide ahead of both, and longer-term Germany and Japan as well, while Italy and Canada are likely to slide behind.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2017-12-07, 22:27:50
Umm. That's pretty stark. 

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQdgLL9VQAAEfv3.jpg:large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQdVDdBX4AA2EuU.jpg)

(Wagging tongues commented that Brexit is a backhanded way for London to get rid of loss-making Northern Ireland.)
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-12-08, 01:37:25
Germany runs the EU and at least this third attempt was not a military war. This country, Gt Britain WILL do well in the world at large for all you wax about and we will not be pumping money into a farce of a system that never ever gets it's books cleared so what about that corner, eh??  Ireland was getting nowhere until it desperately joined the EU and like other small poor countries could not financially run itself hence the begging bowl financial game which you know fine well about. If Europe is not prepared to be more sensible there are places over there who are going to suffer when we get out that farce of a system.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2017-12-08, 12:27:29
On the other hand they may not go out in a blaze of glory after all.

Not much remains of Theresa May's red lines after the Brexit deal (Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/08/not-much-remain-theresa-may-red-lines-brexit-deal))


Quote
The first, and biggest, concession is buried in paragraph 49 of the 15-page report published early on Friday morning. Its implications will be anything but quiet in the weeks to come, for it undermines the prime minister's previous insistence that Britain will be leaving the single market.

It states clearly: "In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the internal market and the customs union." In other words, the UK may not be a member of the single market, or have any direct ability to shape its rules in future, but it could yet have to play by them in perpetuity.
(https://www.theguardian.com/info/2015/dec/08/daily-email-uk)
Much will be made of the "in the absence of agreed solutions" caveat, yet what it means in practice is that the UK hopes to flesh out this pledge through a wider free trade agreement with the EU. If the other 27 members were reluctant to allow any wriggle room in the first phase of talks, they are even less likely to budge now that this principle is established as a back-stop.

When the agreement was first drafted on Monday, there was much concern that the promise of maintaining regulatory "alignment" might only apply to Northern Ireland, but the Democratic Unionist party has succeeded in removing any ambiguity and forced Downing Street to spell out that alignment stretches right across the Irish sea.
"The United Kingdom will ensure that no new regulatory barriers develop between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom," says the text now - unless, by some miracle, the Northern Ireland assembly were to decide it did, after all, want to be cut off.
In other words until something else is agreed Britain will remain in the internal market. That is good news for British territorial integrity, for business, and for predictability in 2019 and beyond.

Of course, that is also Norway by default (actually a little less, Norway has a marginal say within the EEA), so everything said about Norway applies. 
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-12-09, 02:43:50
Oh the Guardian! What a waste of money buying that thing is. It is right behind the Labour lefty crackers and that party IS divided on Brexit and pretends it is not. That Lenin, oops, Corbyn, sat on the damn fence during the Brexit campaign. I wouldn't go with that newspaper even if it kept Edinburgh distant. The only good thing I muse on that paper is that it is struggling on sales etc a bit so hooray! The Prime Minister did achieve something on Thursday and the Guardian's Marxist pal Corbyn came out with rubbish when asked if the decision was a good progress.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-12-09, 22:53:53
I hope the Guardian, the anti Papist, pró-gay  pasquim will die soon.
Some it goes for the NYT.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-12-11, 08:02:26
I get annoyed at the BBC in some current affairs programmes as it makes me wonder if they are employed by the damn guardian. Mind you I doubt if anti-Papist or anti-queer as that's my corner!
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2017-12-11, 08:42:03
Yep. Daily Express is the only true newspaper, the only one that realises that fog in the channel isolates the continent.

(https://s17.postimg.org/crapzxcgf/20171210_133455.jpg)
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-12-11, 11:26:21
May's triumph? Interesting headline...
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Luxor on 2017-12-11, 13:42:03
May's triumph? Interesting headline...
Nobody takes the Express seriously. Most of their front pages are either about some amazing medical breakthrough (when there isn't one), or some news about Princess Diana, even though she's been dead for 20 years.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-12-12, 01:46:07
You forgot to add the "National" a newspaper that is a waste of time and a much declined sales.....
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Luxor on 2017-12-12, 13:24:20
Yawn...  :zzz:
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-12-12, 14:46:52
Look pompous  you are never able to deal with things face on and go into a pompous and snooty attitude instead. I will give you one kind of positive in that you are regular with body-swerving. We are on the way out and your declining lot of Brigadoons are in the slide. That the national and ever so, ever so Guardian are going down you have little to hold on to!
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Luxor on 2017-12-12, 15:08:20
See previous post, though I don't like repeating myself unlike some people.  :whistle:
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-12-12, 18:31:04
Oh you are doing well keeping up your would-be liberal minded nonsense. You don't really deal with a point where you are not agreed with you and are part of the modern so-called wide thinking who don't actually practice that in real life. Your mind set is actually now part of the modern narrow thinking. In the past you would have been part of the attitude that would accuse others of being mind controlled but now your corner is the in thing.  :yes:
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Luxor on 2017-12-12, 19:15:01
 :zzz:  :zzz:  :zzz:
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-12-13, 08:49:14
Conceited excuse...conceited excuse.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Luxor on 2017-12-13, 14:31:53
Ah, diddums!
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-12-13, 18:15:45
Well in a free country there is always the situation that the small mind will commandeer snobbishness, limited sense and daft smugness. It is normally the self proclaimed open liberal mindset (so called) and as you are a Guardinista you well show that failing. Feel smarty pants if you wish but the hard fact is that Britain is coming out of that fiasco called the EU and your brain lot squeal about the UK but quite happy to give in to Brussels control. So be as cocky as you want because goodbye is coming and we will again have our own country's control back. You sneer at the large numbers who read say the Daily Mail or Daily Express but the National is a wee thing and the Guardian is a struggle. When one considers the size of the Guardian compared to say the Mail you are ridiculing an awful lot of people who read it. And the National? There is another failing so wax away but watch you don't strain your brain cells.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Luxor on 2017-12-13, 18:45:49
 :zzz:  :zzz:  :zzz:  :zzz:
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-12-14, 11:49:15
Apparently big companies are selling inferior products in Eastern Europe. Pretty bizarre stuff.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/eastern-europeans-tired-of-inferior-products-a-1182949.html
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2017-12-14, 12:03:01
Apparently big companies are selling inferior products in Eastern Europe. Pretty bizarre stuff.
I have suspected this for decades and I have occasionally got direct hints (when doing business with companies) that this is so. Global companies divide the world into regions as they see fit. The former Warsaw Pact area tends to be its own region, separate from Western Europe. Sometimes they are bundled together with Russia. This applies for many products and services so that it's easily noticeable when you spend time in a different country for a little while.

Edit: But I must say your story is a good find. There is precious little journalism on this topic.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-12-14, 12:46:31
I do make allowances for Luxor to be incapable of in-depth stances and hide behind daft passing comments.Snooty and smart alex styles are not a sign of some deep intelligence and appraisal but an incapability. The simple are entitled to a society place like the intelligent but they cannot get away with trying to dominate it and slag ff large numbers of people by hiding behind the Guardian and National guff. Pity there are fewer public toilets as they could have a job being an attendant........ 8)
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Luxor on 2017-12-14, 14:00:12
 :zzz:  :zzz:  :zzz:  :zzz:  :zzz:
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-12-15, 18:27:50
Dear readers it is obvious to grey cell users that Luxor is trying to give the impression of being satirical and like many in his corner as unable to be definitive about anything. So the superficial is in his case not and is instead an inability. The Guardian and the National pontification in hard practice and practicality shows the snobbish lean and part of what is supposed to be modern liberal thinking.  In hard factuality it is a snobbish and slightly ignorant thing which dismisses anything outside of those two publications as sniffy.  Those of us here who can give a stance can of course sigh and be glad we are not related to him but his education seems to have been wasted....... :no:  :faint:
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Luxor on 2017-12-15, 18:55:36
 :zzz:  :zzz:  :zzz:  :zzz:  :zzz:
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-12-16, 16:13:28
Quote from: rjhowie link=msg=77089 date=1512624824Portugal IS a Third World country in practice![/quote author
Just considered by Fitch Rating Agency as similar to Italia. Meaning Above you.
You're Going to suffer a lot and we are going to laugh a lot.

By the way, ever thought abut the British expulsion and property nationalization by the "the third country>" from the "British"? :):):)
Advantages of idiotic Brexits...

Looking for real nice properties right now, only problem the Northern smell...
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: string on 2017-12-17, 20:21:38
Re Northern Ireland. One problem with that matter has been the uncooperative attitude if the EU. That, with Ireland and the UK have obligations to support the Belfast agreement but have refused to offer tangeable support, claiming that the UK caused the problem and should solve it by itself. A semantic nonsense: if one has a responsibility one should attempt to support it on some way, not play a blame game.

At the moment there is a fuzzy situation, with alignment with EU regulations for those specific areas related to the Belfast agreement which acts as a diplomatic placebo for tthe Irish but that is, in the end, secondary to reading a good overall agreement. Alignment, by the way, does not mean identical, it means equivalent.

Incidentally, I support rjh on this, the DUP were right to object and saw things clearly when others didn't.

The argument to be used by the UK is clear --- if Northern Ireland can have, effectively free trade with thd EU then so can the rest of the UK.

In the event that there is no deal, the approach by the UK can simply be to declare, unilaterally,  on their side an open border between The UK and Ireland, while again unilaterally, that all goods not more than 90% made in EI shall be tagged for later application of tariffs or summer confiscation. There will be some leakage, but who really cares. As for the free mivemdnt part, that would be civered by other means since no-one not from Ireland eould have a valid vusa.

Of course, the Irish or the EU could put up a birder, but that would be their problem, but I doubt they would shirk their responsibilities to that extent.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: string on 2017-12-17, 20:42:06
Re the Airbus thing. I don't think the Chinese option is viable, at least not in the short term. Working practices are set up and agreed, jigs are made and (blast it) the pound has evaluated by around 30% which offsets a bit of tarif.

The Airbus cooperation had it's roots in the inter-European cooperation fostered by ESA in the Space Industry where groups of companies got together to his against competing pan-European Groups. Such things don't  spring magically from thin air.

But the most import and comment on this sort of cookery is that nothing has yet been finalised and until it is all of that stuff is pure speculation.

Anyway, last time I looked, China was not in the EU, nor was the EU in China to put the proper perspective on it.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-12-17, 21:34:32
@string  :yikes:  :insane:  :coffee:  :hat:
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: string on 2017-12-17, 21:53:00
@string  :yikes:  :insane:  :coffee:  :hat:

Back with a bump!
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2017-12-18, 10:18:32
As for the free mivemdnt part, that would be civered by other means since no-one not from Ireland eould have a valid vusa.

Of course, the Irish or the EU could put up a birder, but that would be their problem, but I doubt they would shirk their responsibilities to that extent.
Your keyboard is throwing a tantrum, worse than RJ's. You probably need a new one.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-12-18, 10:28:50
I recommend the Motospeed Inflictor CK104 Gaming Mechanical Keyboard.[1] The font is not ideal and I'm not into back-lighting, but the typing feel about equals that of keyboards three times the price like mine.[2] Of course when I bought mine five years ago it was a significantly more niche product, so there was no cheaper option.

(But seriously, my typing looks a lot more like that in my laptop... you easily mis keystrokes on worse keyboards if you're not careful and you have to ram the keys down. Very unpleasant. :) )
For example, from here (https://www.gearbest.com/keyboards/pp_298472.html).
They're Cherry MX Blue (or Red if you wish) equivalent China switches. They feel almost just like real blues.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2017-12-18, 11:19:17
I recommend the Motospeed Inflictor CK104 Gaming Mechanical Keyboard.[1]
It would be a great buy, but I already have Cooler Master Devastator, which I believe has somewhat equivalent tactile response, even though it's not mechanical and does not offer changeable keys and has one single modest mode of backlighting.

In different living&working locations I have different keyboards. Cooler Master Devastator is probably the fanciest one, while some weird flat thing with bluetooth is the most expensive one. I bought it to see how usable it is with smartphones and tablets. The conclusion is that it isn't really.
For example, from here (https://www.gearbest.com/keyboards/pp_298472.html).
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: string on 2017-12-18, 12:50:40
My apologies for all the spelling mistakes. It's  due to me typing on a virtual keyboard whichvsedms which seems to have a mind if it's own. The least pointing error and it goes off on a rampage. The rest is poor lighting, poor eyesight and laziness in proof reading.

Must try harder.


A mechanical keyboard  is much better
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-12-18, 14:13:11
It would be a great buy, but I already have Cooler Master Devastator, which I believe has somewhat equivalent tactile response, even though it's not mechanical and does not offer changeable keys and has one single modest mode of backlighting.
From glancing at this review (https://tweakers.net/productreview/127381/cooler-master-devastator-ii-gaming-gear-combo-(blue-version-qwerty).html) and Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/6k1tte/is_the_cooler_master_devastator_ii_good/) it seems to be some kind of weird contraption that's good for a rubber dome. Which is not a bad thing but I'd get a real one. :)
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2017-12-18, 14:35:53
It's  due to me typing on a virtual keyboard...
Ah, typing on a phone, are we...

weird contraption that's good for a rubber dome. Which is not a bad thing but I'd get a real one.  :)
Sure, if you say so. I'm happily ignorant in this area - I have no idea what a rubber dome means in this context and what is real and what is not. I don't demand much from a keyboard:

- what goes down, must come up (ever noticed how particularly the spacebar tends to stick with some very cheap keyboards?)
- full size keys (basically, the size I am used to, smaller is bad)
- the common or standard layout of the midsection keys (Ins, Del, Home, End, PgUp, PgDn, etc.)
- long horizontal Enter key, not the all-too-usual crooked thing
- backlighting preferably around the keys, not in them

The first two are requirements, the rest are nice-to-haves. I have touched a few mechanical keyboards, as well as keyboards on both electronic and mechanical typewriters. I am not a connoisseur enough to desire anything beyond Cooler Master Devastator.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-12-18, 15:15:48
Sure, if you say so. I'm happily ignorant in this area - I have no idea what a rubber dome means in this context and what is real and what is not.
It's a question of whether you have to completely press down a key to the very bottom or whether you have to press it down, say, 70% (actuation levels vary). You don't realize how much it's secretly hurting your hands to do so until you've used a proper mechanical keyboard for a while. There's no "I pressed it down and it didn't register".

Also, mechanical keyboard can last over a decade. Rubber domes need replacement after a couple of years. (Okay, you can use them for up to a decade or so but after a couple of years even good ones have degraded into mediocre to bad ones.)

- long horizontal Enter key, not the all-too-usual crooked thing
Unfortunately this Enter key (which I too prefer) is the US-ANSI standard and the bad one is ISO.

I am not a connoisseur enough to desire anything beyond Cooler Master Devastator.
That's where the keyboard I recommended comes into play. It takes away the price distinction.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2017-12-18, 17:07:22
I am not a connoisseur enough to desire anything beyond Cooler Master Devastator.
That's where the keyboard I recommended comes into play. It takes away the price distinction.
I'll see in about a decade if I need it. Meanwhile I found a review in some sort of colonial French.

Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-12-18, 20:15:32
some sort of colonial French.
What accent is that? Québécois? I'm actually surprised that I'm able to understand it reasonably well, though I suppose given the point and speak nature of the video the same might apply even if you don't speak French.

I've attached a bad picture of my wife's customized color scheme.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2017-12-18, 20:44:09
What accent is that? Québécois?
The About page of the youtuber says
- Country: Canada.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2017-12-18, 22:35:51
In the event that there is no deal, the approach by the UK can simply be to declare, unilaterally,  on their side an open border between The UK and Ireland, while again unilaterally, that all goods not more than 90% made in EI shall be tagged for later application of tariffs or summer confiscation. There will be some leakage, but who really cares. As for the free mivemdnt part, that would be civered by other means since no-one not from Ireland eould have a valid vusa.

Of course, the Irish or the EU could put up a birder, but that would be their problem, but I doubt they would shirk their responsibilities to that extent.
There is a catch: More delusions on the Irish border (http://More delusions on the Irish border)
Quote
As the weeks pass, so the ideas get sillier. One circulating among certain Brexiters at the moment is that the UK could gain the upper hand over the Ireland issue by simply leaving the Irish border open after Brexit, charging no tariffs and making no inspections, and dare the EU to be the first to put up customs posts. Would this actually work in the real world? No, for many reasons. At the most it is likely to be a crude blame-shifting exercise aimed at getting the British public to point the finger at the Irish when the border inevitably goes up. For a post-Brexit UK to charge no tariffs on imports from the EU would be a massive breach of the rules of the World Trade Organization, which operates on a "most-favoured nation" (MFN) principle of equal treatment. This can be overridden if two or more members sign a formal bilateral or regional trade agreement among themselves. But it will take years for the UK to agree a trade deal with the EU: Britain cannot simply pre-empt it by holding tariffs at zero from the off.

Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2017-12-19, 09:35:35
Another thread,
The EU is moving inexorably towards a Federal State.

Individual countries are becoming irrelevant, and relics of yesteryear, curious cultural enclaves gradually losing distinction and individuality and submerging into enforced uniformity.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-12-19, 13:20:03
And that is why in another thread here I have condemned that as don't want to be in a US of Europe.

Yes i dare say that GB could leave the Irish Border open and we have been very good to them south of it loaning them billions at low interest as a help. The Irish Republic unfortunately has never been capable of proper running itself hence the kind of "acceptable" begging bowl attitude re Brussels. The country has completely about turned from decades of mixed ignorance. It is far better educated and the Roman Church been stopped from pulling the strings for generations. The general closeness between Gt Britain the Republic is positive and trust that continues as crossing the border is a lot less inconvenient than decades ago when I was young. However my regard for Ireland does not mean that we can have our strings pulled!  :)
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: string on 2017-12-19, 17:54:01
Re the border. Yes I do believe it is quite feasible, not optimum certainly but feasible. We could expect many squeaked and moans but in the end if this country agrees to free passage from Ireland there's little that others can do about it.

Britain leaves the EU next year and will not impose border checks; if there are border checks it will be on the Irish side manned by Irish Border Guards or the EU Army (???) troops for all I care. One can be sure of that. What is not so clear yet is the laws which would accompany that: They are unclear because there are many options, for example

o An interim open border until blah blah blah ( wait it out or take it slow)
o All products imported into the UK must have their country of origin available to non-contact sensors
o All non Irish products are considered illegal in the UK unless and until they have passed through a central clearing house
o Illegal products will be confiscated

One could go on, but it's  necessary to remind ourselves that this is in the context of no-deal from the EU.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-12-19, 19:17:25
There is a practical point there about the Border as we have made it clear we are content with an open situation. The Irish Government for all it's sense has also been harping I am afraid and what happens after we leave the Euro club it IS Ireland's problem as they will still be in that Union.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2017-12-22, 18:02:38
Bregrets? Why Britain has had few over Europe (https://amp.ft.com/content/991fe2ca-df21-11e7-8f9f-de1c2175f5ce)

Quote from: Financial Times
The most likely reason for the steadfast opinions, however, is that the referendum scrambled political identities. Ipsos Mori's fascinating "Shifting Ground" survey shows how the UK's political tribes have been reconfigured. Before the referendum, supporters of the Labour party sat on the left side of the economic axis, favouring tax and spend policies. The Conservatives were towards the right, advocating free market economics. On social issues, the Tory tribe flirted with authoritarianism while Labour voters floated towards liberalism. Crucially, there was substantial crossover on all these issues -- in the political centre ground. 

But Brexit has laid waste to that. The survey shows that the crossover between Leavers and Remainers is much smaller, and that these tribes are more starkly divided on social issues such as the death penalty and the pace of cultural change. Brexit has become a form of identity politics. And healing the divide is going to be difficult.
(https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/http%3A%2F%2Fcom.ft.imagepublish.prod.s3.amazonaws.com%2F4836a3a6-df4b-11e7-a8a4-0a1e63a52f9c?source=google-amp)
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-12-23, 00:40:44
Much of the working class are Brexiteers so good for them. Labour is a question mark over the whole Brexit thing. One Shadow Cabinet member saying one thing and another the opposite. They really have a farce snapping at the Tories but the hard fact is that Labour is going round in circles. The media goes on and on repeating the same boring stuff as they do to the point of boring people stiff.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: krake on 2017-12-23, 16:57:29
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Ffun.drno.de%2Fpics%2Fxmas%2Fbrexit.jpg&hash=b8dbd96a6c5f3df58caef598e2c48cfe" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://fun.drno.de/pics/xmas/brexit.jpg)
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-12-23, 20:05:16
At least we have our status to look forward to and back where it belongs.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: string on 2017-12-24, 15:33:06
(https://thedndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Ffun.drno.de%2Fpics%2Fxmas%2Fbrexit.jpg&hash=b8dbd96a6c5f3df58caef598e2c48cfe" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://fun.drno.de/pics/xmas/brexit.jpg)

We over here have grown accustomed to this sort of insulting parody but the same can be said of the EU which seems incapable or realising that when you loose a wealthy member state of 65 million you have to be prepared to cut your cloth to suit the new budget reality. I suppose it's  possible that the EU machinery is cutting budgets and will live within its  reduced means, but if so I must have missed that.

The UK Government has stated from the off that it wished to retain good relations with the EU and that it had a political interest in the EU doing well. That has not been reflected (or only partially) by the EU negotiators who are clearly much more concerned with concepts of punishment and keeping the UK cash flowing into Europe at the same rate as before.

The phrase wanting to "have their cake and eat" it applies in spades to the EU.

The wish to have the EU do well was, I believe, generally well meant and genuine in the UK and that remains the case, but it's  not an attitude that would survive much more of the knuckle-dragging attitudes that parody represents.

Maybe the EU does not want good access to the UK market and wants it to become an off-shore competitor instead of a friendly and cooperating neighbour . I doubt that those on either side who do not knuckle drag feel that way but people in Europe should understand that "no deal" is a very real possibility and it would not take much to give that popular appeal in the UK.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: string on 2017-12-24, 15:49:53
Bregrets? Why Britain has had few over Europe (https://amp.ft.com/content/991fe2ca-df21-11e7-8f9f-de1c2175f5ce)

Quote from: Financial Times
The most likely reason for the steadfast opinions, however, is that the referendum scrambled political identities. Ipsos Mori's fascinating "Shifting Ground" survey shows how the UK's political tribes have been reconfigured. Before the referendum, supporters of the Labour party sat on the left side of the economic axis, favouring tax and spend policies. The Conservatives were towards the right, advocating free market economics. On social issues, the Tory tribe flirted with authoritarianism while Labour voters floated towards liberalism. Crucially, there was substantial crossover on all these issues -- in the political centre ground.

But Brexit has laid waste to that. The survey shows that the crossover between Leavers and Remainers is much smaller, and that these tribes are more starkly divided on social issues such as the death penalty and the pace of cultural change. Brexit has become a form of identity politics. And healing the divide is going to be difficult.
(https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/http%3A%2F%2Fcom.ft.imagepublish.prod.s3.amazonaws.com%2F4836a3a6-df4b-11e7-a8a4-0a1e63a52f9c?source=google-amp)

Personally I'm interested but deeply cynical about such charts especially considering:

o I voted remain but for me that is now history, the job now is to move forwards. A common attitude here but not so easy to place on such a chart. I would not know where to place myself
o the traditional characterisation between Labour and Conservative stereotypes is much too simplistic, if it has any validity now at all which I doubt
o authoritarian crops up now and then. Who was more authority - Stalin or Hitler, Corbyn or May?
o there is a large, oscillating, middle ground of people either don't  have opinions on theses things yet or don't  care
o In general (to authors of such things) - quit navel gazing, write your paper and get your brownie points but then get on and solve the issue in front of you
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: krake on 2017-12-24, 19:35:35
... but people in Europe should understand that "no deal" is a very real possibility and it would not take much to give that popular appeal in the UK.
People in Europe vs people in the UK?  :left:
Leaving the EU might become finalized during the next five years but considering the speed of continental drift, I'm afraid that leaving Europe will take much longer... Till then I'd consider the UK still part of Europe - geographically at least.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-12-24, 21:17:49
Well I hope the main trust will be quick and now we have decided to have our former blue passport back - hooray! Time and time again those who go on about what we will "lose" getting out that financially improper running mess tend to ignore that there are a selection of countries across Europe who depend on trading with us. Decades ago we had only joined a trading organisation which morphed into a partly democratic Union.  Having visited 2 European countries which I was content with (one twice) I will do one of them for a third trip long overdue. And don't sidestep what I have already aired in that there is a move to get that EU to move towards being a Union getting like America. Well they can go on with that baloney but I am glad we are back to being a proper Britain.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-12-25, 12:41:26
... but people in Europe should understand that "no deal" is a very real possibility and it would not take much to give that popular appeal in the UK.
People in Europe vs people in the UK?  :left:
Leaving the EU might become finalized during the next five years but considering the speed of continental drift, I'm afraid that leaving Europe will take much longer... Till then I'd consider the UK still part of Europe - geographically at least.
It's a regular thing in the UK this decade. It's almost as if France, Belgium, and the Netherlands feel closer in 19th century novels.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2017-12-25, 13:11:39
Personally I'm interested but deeply cynical about such charts especially considering:

o I voted remain but for me that is now history, the job now is to move forwards. A common attitude here but not so easy to place on such a chart. I would not know where to place myself
o the traditional characterisation between Labour and Conservative stereotypes is much too simplistic, if it has any validity now at all which I doubt
o authoritarian crops up now and then. Who was more authority - Stalin or Hitler, Corbyn or May?
o there is a large, oscillating, middle ground of people either don't  have opinions on theses things yet or don't  care
o In general (to authors of such things) - quit navel gazing, write your paper and get your brownie points but then get on and solve the issue in front of you
These surveys ask a number of questions to pry out the respondents' attitudes. Some questions will be related to one trait, others to another. That way they can distribute the respondents according to not-necessarily-orthogonal axes.

I haven't bothered to look up the survey data from the British Election Study (http://www.britishelectionstudy.com/), but the quoted examples of left/right-prying questions are "For society to be fair, differences in people's living standard should be small" and "The British economy is rigged towards the rich and powerful". Answering "yes" to these will shift you towards the left on the axis, answering "no" towards the right. Likewise "yes" to "These days I feel like a stranger in my own country" and "Things in Britain were better in the past" would nudge you towards authoritarian.

Given a large enough sample you can do a statistical analysis on how correlated each question is with the axes you are looking for. For instance "The British economy is rigged" is a common sentiment on the far right as well as on the left. "Right" here seems to mean friendly to business/market economy, which is fair enough, but there are other ways of defining left/right. The other axis is labeled authoritarian/libertarian, which is a misnomer. For one thing "libertarian" isn't the antonym of "authoritarian", and the provided questions don't measure authoritarianism, but conservativism. There is a correlation, these two traits are more likely to go together than to be opposed. An authoritarian prefer a strong leader over strong institutions, and put greater emphasis on obeying orders and customs than on self-reliance or curiosity. A conservative is not fond of change. The article also used "identity politics", a label with problems of its own, but slightly better. 

Having mapped out the respondents according to these axes it is easy to make blobs for Labour/Tory or Leave/Remain, simply by asking them if they voted Labour or Conservative, Leave or Remain at relevant elections.

 
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2017-12-25, 14:18:27
We over here have grown accustomed to this sort of insulting parody but the same can be said of the EU which seems incapable or realising that when you loose a wealthy member state of 65 million you have to be prepared to cut your cloth to suit the new budget reality. I suppose it's  possible that the EU machinery is cutting budgets and will live within its  reduced means, but if so I must have missed that.

The UK Government has stated from the off that it wished to retain good relations with the EU and that it had a political interest in the EU doing well. That has not been reflected (or only partially) by the EU negotiators who are clearly much more concerned with concepts of punishment and keeping the UK cash flowing into Europe at the same rate as before.

The phrase wanting to "have their cake and eat" it applies in spades to the EU.

The wish to have the EU do well was, I believe, generally well meant and genuine in the UK and that remains the case, but it's  not an attitude that would survive much more of the knuckle-dragging attitudes that parody represents.

Maybe the EU does not want good access to the UK market and wants it to become an off-shore competitor instead of a friendly and cooperating neighbour . I doubt that those on either side who do not knuckle drag feel that way but people in Europe should understand that "no deal" is a very real possibility and it would not take much to give that popular appeal in the UK.

I think you strongly underestimate the cost of a true "no deal" with no transition deals, referred to as the Belarus alternative. Such a Britain would be in WTO, NATO and UN, and similar organisations, but that would be it. There are thousand of agreements that Britain has done as an EU member that would have to be renegotiated. As an example no planes in Britain could land outside Britain and vice versa. Britain would effectively be under an embargo until this was resolved.

The good news is that neither side seems intent on that happening. There will at least be transition deals, giving Britain time to produce new deals. That would take years, providing many job opportunities for skilled bureaucrats.


On the other hand do you, like many others, strongly overestimate the impact on the EU economy. The EU has a budget 1% of the economy. It's the 99% that matters to Britain, and all other EU members. Most of the EU funds are redistributive, money comes in from dues, and goes out to fund stuff like Common Agricultural Policy and Structural and Cohesion Funds. Less money is redistributed back to the UK as is paid by the UK, so the UK is a net donor. However, about 40% of the British economy is in the public sector, relatively minor changes here would have a far greater impact than the 0.4% of British GDP (or the 0.07% of EU GDP) that goes out to the EU.

For the EU organisation however the shortfall of 10 gigaeuro is about 7% of the annual budget. That's quite noticable. It could be resolved by members paying higher dues and/or the EU funding less. It most likely will be a bit of both.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: string on 2017-12-25, 15:29:54
Re the underestimation remark - Jax, you make, as usual a lot of good points and I concur with most.

I don't  think folk should play down the effects of a no deal Brexit on either side. Harm will be done to both.

But the sad fact is that they tend to be irrelevant in the minds of many. I've  noticed it in the Scottish Independence turmoil, in the Catalan independence on-going saga and now also in Brexit. There comes a time when people simply don't  care about the economic arguments, the objective becomes limited to jingoistic notions of what winning means and practicalities get pushed aside. The is a context of what is happening when insults get thrown around. A bigger insult than one recieved neans a "win" however nonsensical thd insults were. Independence or bust becomes Independence whatever the consequences.

In my opinion the most vulnerable to falling into that way if thinking are the public who are not aware if the complexities and the political extremists who mould events and public opinion.

So I repeat my claim the a no deal scenario is a real possibility and behind that the argument that insults enhance that as a possibility. That would be a bad result for both sides of the negotiation table. That is why I object to such simplistic insults as having cakes while eating them.

Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: string on 2017-12-25, 16:04:46
For the EU organisation however the shortfall of 10 gigaeuro is about 7% of the annual budget. That's quite noticable. It could be resolved by members paying higher dues and/or the EU funding less. It most likely will be a bit of both.

Do you not think that the EU Executive should adjust it's plans in the light of it's  budget reducing, rather than simply going on spending  as if nothing is happening? (Over and above savings made in terminating the contracts of UK staff members that is).
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2017-12-25, 16:49:40
Sounds a bit like sitting on the fence attitude there giving that about how both sides could kind of suffer?  This is just like elections where one side wins and the other loses and life goes on and it will be the same effect once we get out of this farce of the EU. I know there are countries in the Union that will bed the knee because they are not capable or able to run themselves that well and the handouts keep them going but that does not mean we have to just drift along with that. Using the liberal political attitude does not work as far as this European club is concerned.  We are not some third world or like those pooer ones in Europe and we have a good basis for a world wide position. Like any election or change of direction there are always challenges but here we are totally ignoring the simmering attitude from the strong guys in Europe to move towards a "United states of europe." Utter bonkers and this thread just body-swerves that. The majority of ordinary people in GB who are not cumfy off like others of us want out of the EU and i am glad of that.

As for Scotland a lot of the Brigadoon mob in the Nat corner are emotional tribalism. They fight for independence from the UK and to be governed by Brussels! May I also remind you that the Nationalists lost seats to both Labour and Conservative - especially Conservative. Even that big mouth and stroppy smart alex (Salmond) who used to be SNP Leader got bumped out of Westminster by a Tory. Britain voted to get out and we will and even if teething problems we are basically and economically strong. Roll on the date! :yes:
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2017-12-25, 17:50:48
But the sad fact is that they tend to be irrelevant in the minds of many. I've  noticed it in the Scottish Independence turmoil, in the Catalan independence on-going saga and now also in Brexit. There comes a time when people simply don't  care about the economic arguments, the objective becomes limited to jingoistic notions of what winning means and practicalities get pushed aside. The is a context of what is happening when insults get thrown around. A bigger insult than one recieved neans a "win" however nonsensical thd insults were. Independence or bust becomes Independence whatever the consequences.

In my opinion the most vulnerable to falling into that way if thinking are the public who are not aware if the complexities and the political extremists who mould events and public opinion.

So I repeat my claim the a no deal scenario is a real possibility and behind that the argument that insults enhance that as a possibility. That would be a bad result for both sides of the negotiation table. That is why I object to such simplistic insults as having cakes while eating them.
That threat is weird, like a jilted lover threatening "If you leave me now, I'm going to stab myself". That is a credible threat, but through self-harm. It would hurt both, but only one would be bleeding.

It seems there is an agreement to put the knife down, to the relief of business and reasonable people everywhere.

Brexit is definitely going to cost economically, any other opinion is simply wrong. However, assuming rational behaviour, that cost should be modest over time.

People make decisions that are economically disadvantageous, and obviously have that choice, either for good reasons or for "blue passport" reasons.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2017-12-25, 18:23:08
Do you not think that the EU Executive should adjust it's plans in the light of it's  budget reducing, rather than simply going on spending  as if nothing is happening? (Over and above savings made in terminating the contracts of UK staff members that is).
You mean the Council of the European Union (i.e. the governments of the member states)? That will be the big haggle. The net donor nations have been firm that they don't want to pay more, rather the opposite. On the other hand it's relatively small money. Like I said, I expect a bit of both.

And it's not like the UK is about to stop paying any day soon. There have been, and will continue to be, reforms. The EU budget has actually been shrinking relative to the economy. We can expect the payments to CAP to keep falling. The biggest battle ground, I guess, will be the second-largest post, the structural and cohesion funds. Infrastructure spending in particular can do much good, even between relatively rich countries as national governments tend to overinvest in infrastructure inside country and underinvest in infrastructure between countries. National government also tend to look at it from the perspective of the capital, not always a good idea. All that said, not all investments have been great, and we can expect slightly less of it in any case. 

The big C word is Convergence. Lately there's rather been a divergence in the economies, but the longer-term trend is that relatively poorer countries are catching up, and/or get less farmers. Either way leading to net recipients needing and getting less.  
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2018-02-06, 09:30:20
EU: Serbia, Montenegro 'Could Join In 2025' (https://www.rferl.org/a/eu-western-balkans-strategy-bosnia-kosovo-macedonia-montenegro-serbia/28976883.html)

Quote
BRUSSELS -- Montenegro and Serbia should be ready for EU membership in 2025 and Albania, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kosovo, and Macedonia should be well-advanced on their path to EU accession by then, according to a draft of the European Commission's Western Balkans strategy seen by RFE/RL.

The strategy, which is expected to be made public on February 6, is part of an EU effort to breathe new life into the accession process for the six Western Balkan countries that remain outside the bloc.

The draft seen by RFE/RL states that "the Western Balkan partners now have a historic window of opportunity" and that "for the first time their accession perspective has a best-case framework" -- but adds that the timeline set out in the paper is realistic only if there is "strong political will, delivery of real reforms, and lasting solutions to disputes with neighbors."

The timeline is "ambitious and is meant to be an incentive," it says.

According to the document, 2019 will be a crucial year.

(https://gdb.rferl.org/31EBB054-E0AB-403F-BFE9-7763D7C453D9_w1597_n_r0_s.png)
Whoever drew that map seems to have had it in for Albania.

It is interesting, though not really surprising, that it is Serbia and Montenegro that are in the fast track category. After all these were the two parts of Rump Yugoslavia that started the Yugoslav wars, and Serbia was finally bombed into submission. A generation later they, and their erstwhile enemies, are set to join the EU. Of course, if it hadn't been for that war these countries would likely have been in the EU already. 
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2018-02-06, 10:41:06
It is interesting, though not really surprising, that it is Serbia and Montenegro that are in the fast track category. After all these were the two parts of Rump Yugoslavia that started the Yugoslav wars, and Serbia was finally bombed into submission. A generation later they, and their erstwhile enemies, are set to join the EU. Of course, if it hadn't been for that war these countries would likely have been in the EU already.
It's stupid rather than interesting. There seems to be a political principle that there must always be someone in the fast track category and currently there is nobody else there so they had to put someone even though they obviously don't qualify. It's just a move for the EU to feel good about itself, because it started to feel bad that things went down the drain with Ukraine and Turkey and what other non-qualifying countries they have been playing with.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2018-02-06, 11:19:15
There are technical requirements to be fulfilled to become an EU member, and Serbia and Montenegro have progressed the furthest, so based on that it is quite reasonable. There are also many political issues (e.g. the name of Macedonia, Serbia and Kosovo, and so on).

These countries are poor (bad), small (good), and not with too many farmers (good), but there is a lot of other baggage.  Three of the countries are majority Muslim, but that is not likely to be a major issue. However six more Balkan countries will move the EU voting blocks further to the South-East away from the North and West, as already experienced in the Eurovision.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2018-02-06, 12:51:15
...as already experienced in the Eurovision.
...which reminds me: Will UK continue participating in Eurovision? Why (not)?
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2018-02-06, 19:10:41
But of course. They are not barbarians. Besides, the EBU predates the EU.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/EBU_enlargement_animation.gif)
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-02-06, 19:18:05
Basically no reason why it should not in principle still be in the Euro Song contest. After all hat he deuce is Israel doing in the blessed thing. Yesterday it was still in the Middle East or has it been moved? Pointless nonsense that nation  being in the event.

The who Brexit thing and decision would always be a strong reaction but the would be democrats who lost the Referendum cannot grow damn well up. Sniping and demanding like the liberal Democrat Party leader here who is a pest and constant moaner. There is also a Conservative MP backbencher sacked a wee while ago by the Prime Minister. She seems to forget the PM was originally a  remainer who accepted the result and got on with it. Our economy has not collapsed the numbers working are the hgihest ever and s on. I dare say there will be passing matters on leaving but the Euro moaners seem to forget that Europe trades more to us than the other way round and they can suffer. Maybe learning to grow up is delayed as they don't want to lose the begging bowl they have?
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2018-02-06, 20:16:13
But of course. They are not barbarians. Besides, the EBU predates the EU.
Right. And it shows that EBU does not reflect the ongoings in the EU at all. Popular voting has no necessary connection to top level political allegiances. So it's inapplicable to infer something like "...six more Balkan countries will move the EU voting blocks further to the South-East away from the North and West, as already experienced in the Eurovision."
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-02-06, 22:02:51
Three of the countries are majority Muslim, but that is not likely to be a major issue.
Do you believe that?
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2018-02-07, 08:15:17
Three of the countries are majority Muslim, but that is not likely to be a major issue.
Do you believe that?
I believe that it in fact is a major issue, but experience shows that our dear rulers are often blind to most obvious major issues.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2018-02-07, 10:04:32
Population (in megapeople)
Albania 2.9 (60-80% Muslim)
Bosnia-Herzegovina 3.5 (46% Muslim, so plurality, not majority)
Kosovo 1.8 (90% Muslim)
Total 8.2

A large number of these are secular Muslims, Muslims as an ethnic marker, but not practising religion. This is very far from Saudi Arabia. The wars radicalised many, but actually less than disaffected youth in Western Europe (SA keeps pushing though). Roughly speaking the total number of Muslims would be the same as the total number of Muslims in France. 

Serbia 7.0
Montenegro 0.6
Macedonia 2.1
Total 9.7

The total population of all six countries is less than Romania (or for that matter the number of Roma, gypsies, if we take the upper bound)


The most obvious problem with these countries is that they are dirt poor, even poorer than Bulgaria, today's poorest member. The second obvious problem is that they have all had recent experience with civil war, and there is still plenty bad blood. Third, none of them have good government, plenty corruption and crime. Today none of them would qualify. Would they qualify in 2025? They could, with sufficient improvements. It is also possible that the front-runners will change on the way. 

Another class of problems is that they all, except Serbia that may count as mid-size, are small countries. Every country has a veto, and the number of possible vetos would go up from 27 to 33. Even with qualified voting this would be a significant shift toward the Balkans. If you want less power to Germany and France, great. Germany and France might not agree. There would be no obvious sponsors in the North, North-East, West or South-West as in other enlargements. But by virtue of these being small enlargements, they probably would pass, assuming the applicant countries are qualified. 
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2018-02-07, 10:25:24
The total population of all six countries is less than Romania (or for that matter the number of Roma, gypsies, if we take the upper bound)
And Romanian gypsies by themselves cause enough obvious problems so that there is a term for them that you have most definitely heard of: EU-migranter. This euphemism invariably means unemployed homeless wandering beggars-or-worse from Romania.

The most obvious problem with these countries is that they are dirt poor, even poorer than Bulgaria, today's poorest member. The second obvious problem is that they have all had recent experience with civil war, and there is still plenty bad blood. Third, none of them have good government, plenty corruption and crime. Today none of them would qualify.
Romania and Bulgaria did not qualify either, but none of these problems eventually prevented their accession. Occasionally it looks as if the qualifications are: Just stand in line long enough and you're in.

With Bosnia, Kosovo et al, their Muslim population adds another dimension: From then on, there will be no arguments against Turkey's membership. Nevermind the democracy problem, Kurdish problem, and Cyprus problem, because EU leaders have no principles. There will be an opportune moment for every applicant regardless of the so-called qualifications. Ukraine does not qualify because Russia opposes it - that's the real qualification.

Another class of problems is that they all, except Serbia that may count as mid-size, are small countries. Every country has a veto, and the number of possible vetos would go up from 27 to 33.
In practice, the EU has almost solved this particular issue. It's unfeasible for any smaller country to stand alone. Only big countries can afford to veto without having regional allies. The line between big and small seems to go roughly at the point of Poland and Hungary.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-02-07, 23:48:40
From then on, there will be no arguments against Turkey's membership.
That's the real point,Turkey.
May I remind my fellow europeans that Turkey was invited by Germany the EU for joining the Union. Then, a shaming process of denying our own word lead to the actual situation. Erdogan knows well the weight of Turkey for defending the West so he does what he wants.

So... is it the EU able to not need Turkey?
Or should the EU turn it's strategy against the USA, China and Russia, the real menace, instead spending time with minor Islam problems that takes too much space in our days corrupt media?
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-02-08, 02:25:09
When you consider how Turkey is run and what goes on in it keep it distant.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-02-21, 22:55:00
hen you consider how Turkey is run and what goes on in it keep it distant.
It seems that you are the ones to keep distant. Finally.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-02-22, 02:21:59
 :D
Title: GDPR
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-28, 09:17:29
This is probably the most thorough article about GDPR https://www.politico.eu/article/click-yes-if-you-have-read-and-agree/

The EU Commission's alleged aim is,
Quote
"Internet users do not have to click on a banner every time they visit a website," Commission Vice President Andrus Ansip said. "They will be able to make an informed choice."
Let's ignore the fact that Andrus Ansip is the second-most hated politician in Estonia, particularly due to his tendency to get emphatic when he has no clue what he is talking about (that's why we were happy to send him to the EU), and let's just note that the actual effect of prior EU regulation has been the exact opposite. As the article continues,
Quote
When the European Parliament reviewed the e-Privacy Directive in 2009, it included the obligation for companies storing data to have people opt in, rather than opt out. Coders started building banners across websites to comply.

[...]

"People who thought cookie banners were annoying will be disappointed to hear that things won't get better," said Townsend Feehan, head of the Interactive Advertising Bureau for Europe, which lobbies for the online advertising industry trading heavily in data gathered through marketing cookies.

"Without significant improvements to the proposed text, users would have to actively change the settings of every single device and app they use, and more actively deal with constant requests for permission for the use of harmless cookies when visiting websites and using other digital services," Feehan said.
And if you live in the EU right now, you have already detected that Mr Feehan was right and Mr Ansip was wrong. Websites present EU citizens with more aggressive popups than ever. It's the way the websites understand their obligations under the GDPR.

Quote from: https://brianclifton.com/blog/2018/04/16/google-analytics-gdpr-and-consent/
Dodge the headache of compliance for all your 3rd-party tracking pixels (pretty much all social platforms and 3rd-party widgets/plugins employ some kind of tracking - the infamous "Like" button is probably the most prolific), by requiring consent by default. That is, for all your visitors, European or otherwise, before any tracking takes place. That way, there are no grey areas and you minimise any risk of getting this wrong - a high risk considering website content is often constantly in flux...

[...]

Essentially, the approach is that you need to create a compliance alert to your users on their first visit. You probably already have such a message already. However, often I find tracking is already taking place as soon as the visitor loads a page from your site - before they have accepted (or not) your offer to track their activity. That of course is wrong.

[...]
Five tips for compliance consent:

1. Keep your compliance alert in place until your visitor takes action to accept it. If accepted the alert is removed. If the visitor takes no action, then your compliance alert remains in place. That is, there is no available action for the visitor to reject the alert.
In other words, to be legally safe, the cookie-feeders understand that they must block everything from the user and present them with a popup up front, before anything else. This would naturally happen when the website does not recognise the visitor, i.e. when the cookies are purged or turned off, the visitor must be slapped with a popup.

This is of course exactly what all advertisers want: To be legally required to advertise, bug, annoy, troll in your face, get your consent before you get to know what they are selling, completely regardless if you are even shopping for anything.

Thanks again, EU. Likely there is no easy way to redirect all my devices to appear to be outside the EU, but I am actively looking for a way now. You have paralysed my ability to work and I am forced to fix this before it gets too critical.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2018-05-28, 12:49:33
Likewise, you have a far greater user group trying to VPN themselves into Europe.

Opt-in, much like freedom and democracy, is great in theory, but easily subvertible and subverted in practice. I was sceptical about GDPR initially, but it does seem to be a game-changer. By far not sufficient, but it will make some abuses very much not cost-effective. 

There is an absolutely obscene sub-industry based on the repackaging of personal data. Commonly 10% of a web site is pushing content to you, and 90% pushing you to these ad brokers. Where there is profit there is a way, but they will have to work harder for it in the future.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-28, 14:10:10
Likewise, you have a far greater user group trying to VPN themselves into Europe.
Why? Because they want to enjoy the circus a little bit? Probably to find some euros to scam from here and there by making people click things evermore.

It cannot be in order to get some useful work done, because GDPR took that away.

Opt-in, much like freedom and democracy, is great in theory, but easily subvertible and subverted in practice.
By what flip of logic do you call it an opt-in when you are presented with a barrier with one single option? What sort of opt-in is it? And how in hell can you compare it to freedom and democracy? I have given you too much benefit of the doubt.

There is an absolutely obscene sub-industry based on the repackaging of personal data. Commonly 10% of a web site is pushing content to you, and 90% pushing you to these ad brokers. Where there is profit there is a way, but they will have to work harder for it in the future.
False. Work on their end did not change one bit. Work on my end was already done - I flatly refuse all cookies, unless I need to log in. Now my work has become impossible, because there are demands for me to enable cookies at every turn.

And you have the balls to say this is freedom and democracy. No. My freedom on the internet has been entirely removed.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-28, 14:25:58
I was sceptical about GDPR initially, but it does seem to be a game-changer. By far not sufficient, but it will make some abuses very much not cost-effective.
Can you name some abuse that ceases to be cost effective now?

The way I see it: I used to have a right to refuse cookies. This right was taken away with the cookie directive. Occasionally, when trying to get rid of some above-average nasty banner, I thought "Can this get any worse?" The answer: Of course! When the EU politicians come together, discuss things through with the internet giants and when they sincerely try, yes, they will find a foolproof way to make things worse for everyone!

What they did is legally required abuse!
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-05-29, 12:49:14
By what flip of logic do you call it an opt-in when you are presented with a barrier with one single option? What sort of opt-in is it? And how in hell can you compare it to freedom and democracy? I have given you too much benefit of the doubt.
I'm of the opinion that tracking walls are almost certainly illegal under the GDPR. See e.g. https://pagefair.com/blog/2017/tracking-walls We'll have to wait and see what happens, I suppose.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-30, 06:37:27
I'm of the opinion that tracking walls are almost certainly illegal under the GDPR.
So you agree with Commissar Ansip's presentation on the subject.

To be sure, I would be happy if it were so. However, leaving aside all the bad things I know about Ansip, there are bad things to be noted that preceded GDPR. Namely, the cookie directive (e-privacy regulation) directly erected the walls and you cannot get rid of them unless you accept. Far from being illegal, walls were the aim and the plan under the regulation.

And Brian Clifton (https://brianclifton.com/blog/2018/04/16/google-analytics-gdpr-and-consent/), who is apparently some cookie expert, interprets GDPR as a straightforward extension of the cookie directive - erect more walls more aggressively. Reality happens to align with this interpretation.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-05-30, 07:27:17
It looks like he's not advocating for a tracking wall per se, like effectively on geenstijl (https://www.geenstijl.nl/), which is what I was referring to, but for its annoying little brother:
Quote
The trick is to make the alert "irritating" and "distracting" enough for the visitor to want to take action, but ultimately you cannot stop the user accessing your content if they do not.

I deliberately emphasize irritating and distracting as you must give a strong reason for the user to take action - accept to be tracked. Otherwise you risk large swathes of visitors simply ignoring your alert and continuing to browse your content regardless i.e. you lose a large amount of visitor data!
I would say that's against the spirit of it all but of course there's a large gray zone of acceptability.

He also explicitly agrees with what I intended (and perhaps "Commissar Ansip") in the comments:
Quote
BTW, you are not allowed to block access to your content if a visitor does not consent. My analogy is from bricks and mortar retail stores - a store owner cannot stop someone visiting a store just because they don't like the look of them. That is called discrimination and is illegal in the EU.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-30, 14:19:21
Right now, at least Forbes.com, Latimes.com, and everybody related to Oath Group (includes Endgadget, TechCrunch, and HuffPost) block EU visitors. Block as in block - you have no access. Bypassing with VPN they work as usual.

But I think even the earlier cookie popup deserves to be called a wall. Because it is a barrier. The effect of the GDPR is that it amplified the barriers.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: krake on 2018-05-30, 16:27:39
I flatly refuse all cookies, unless I need to log in. Now my work has become impossible, because there are demands for me to enable cookies at every turn.
One might wonder what this has to do with EU regulations.
There were sites since ages which didn't deliver content if you had cookies disabled. So they are now.
BTW, in private mode browsing, no data will be stored on your HD.

Right now, at least Forbes.com, Latimes.com, and everybody related to Oath Group (includes Endgadget, TechCrunch, and HuffPost) block EU visitors. Block as in block - you have no access.
Forbes.com, engadget.com, techcrunch.com and huffingtonpost.com are displaying fine with my German IP. Tested right now.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-30, 18:16:51
One might wonder what this has to do with EU regulations.
There were sites since ages which didn't deliver content if you had cookies disabled. So they are now.
If the EU so desperately wants to regulate, they could regulate sensibly, such as force such sites to drop their insistence on cookies. Instead, they regulated the opposite: Make everybody insist on cookies.

Forbes.com, engadget.com, techcrunch.com and huffingtonpost.com are displaying fine with my German IP. Tested right now.
They are displaying what fine?

Since the turn of the week
- Forbes.com redirects to https://www.forbes.com/consent/?toURL=https://forbes.com/ which reads "We want you to experience the full power of Forbes.com, but we need your consent to continue..."
- Latimes.com redirects to http://www.tronc.com/gdpr/latimes.com/ which reads "Unfortunately, our website is currently unavailable in most European countries. We are engaged on the issue and committed to looking at options that support our full range of digital offerings to the EU market. We continue to identify technical compliance solutions that will provide all readers with our award-winning journalism."
- Those others redirect to https://guce.oath.com/collectConsent?brandType=nonEu&.done=https[etc] which reads "... Due to EU data protection laws..."

And the first two are implemented by some hardcore means that cannot be bypassed by simply turning javascript off.

If you are unaffected, then either you are really not using an EU IP or your country has managed to negotiate some exceptions to itself vis-a-vis the US. Not surprised either way. The EU regulations are just for suckers like the Baltic countries.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: krake on 2018-05-30, 19:30:37
Well, it's a German IP of a German ISP.
AFAIK Germany is still part of the EU. I'm not aware of a silent Dexit. :)

As for the Baltic states, I thought they are together with the Ukraine and Poland the closest European allies of the US.

BTW, I assume you don't try to access Forbes with an exotic text based browser. ;)

I've attached two pics.
From the first one you can see that I'm correctly identified as an EU visitor.
First I get redirected to Forbes Europe. However there is no problem switching to the US site as shown in the second pic.

first pic (https://ibb.co/kOABqy)
second pic (https://ibb.co/eTKzcd)
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-05-30, 20:35:15
A passing thought on Ukraine. The place is a mess hole and corrupt as proverbial hell. As a Glasgow man i would be groaning if I was forced to live in Edinburgh but even that better than living in that place!  :D
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-31, 03:33:56
Well, it's a German IP of a German ISP.
AFAIK Germany is still part of the EU. I'm not aware of a silent Dexit. :)

As for the Baltic states, I thought they are together with the Ukraine and Poland the closest European allies of the US.
This only shows that, as I always knew, there is no equality and no fairness in the EU. And much less of it can be expected from the US.

BTW, I assume you don't try to access Forbes with an exotic text based browser. ;)
You assume false. When I can't get there with one thing, but I need to, then I will try with another thing and another. I have tried text-based browsers - I go there for news articles after all, not for pics.

For me, only VPN works so that I place myself in Asia. It didn't occur to me to try Germany.

I've attached two pics.
From the first one you can see that I'm correctly identified as an EU visitor.
First I get redirected to Forbes Europe. However there is no problem switching to the US site as shown in the second pic.
Good for you. That EU countries are treated differently only makes this nonsense more nonsensical. The GDPR failed completely even before it started. Eurocommissars should disband.

To clarify: Of course I get to the same page as you after clicking on two (!) OK's, but my point is that no OK's should be needed. Those aggressive acknowledgement demands were not there prior to the GDPR.

I do it for work, not for pleasure. My work, physically, consists of clicking on things. I try my best to minimise and optimise it. The GDPR has massively multiplied my work, made it physically impossible. Privacy is not really a concern for me. The number of clicks is very much a concern.

They are not opt-in's. An opt-in is coupled with an opt-out&continue. It's an unjustified barrier with one single option: sign under. It should not be there at all. I have no reason to sign anything when I am not subscribing, just looking at supposedly free unrestricted content.

If the alleged aim of the GDPR was to improve privacy, then it of course failed massively, just like the cookie directive before it. Privacy would be improved by allowing people to set the cookies OFF in their browsers, while the browsing experience should remain the same: No popups, no redirects. What the cookie directive did was bombard everyone with popups to accept cookies (i.e. loudly insist on worsening your privacy) even if you had them already enabled to accept absolutely everything.

I'm generously giving eurocommissars a benefit of the doubt. I assume they know what they are doing (except Commissar Ansip; he never has any personal initiative and thus no personal responsibility; he only does what he's been told). They know that they are not improving any privacy at all. They are simply lying about the privacy. The real aim is different. Perhaps it's a social experiment on how much crap the EU citizens can take. Because the cookie directive was deemed too mild an experiment - everybody swallowed it without any official complaint. The crap, in my case, is the number of clicks. This was increased with the cookie directive and now with the GDPR it massively exploded.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2018-05-31, 06:47:22
I don't think companies set out to be evil, most of them anyway.

However, the more private information you harvest, the higher your stock price will be, and this has been driving the obnoxious developments the last 15 years. Few companies are in the harvesting business, but wittingly or unwittingly they outsource that to ad brokers, a small part of the whole harvest-for-cash ecosystem. That there are no real reprisals for abuse or negligence adds to the destructiveness of the system. This highly fluid network is like a dark, thorny, malevolent forest. It's not sentient, but behaves as it almost could be. Earlier legalisation tried to prune some thorns. That didn't work. GDPR tries to, we don't know yet how well it will succeed, to attack sources of sustenance, abuse shall not be profitable, and the forest will adapt. Hopefully it will become a little less dark, a little less nasty.

In each and every web/app design office it will be the usual battle between greed (managers wanting ad income), fear (lawyers don't wanting company to be sued), and laziness (do as little as possible). This will go several rounds.


Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-31, 10:31:31
I don't think companies set out to be evil, most of them anyway.
Do you really think so even when your next paragraph completely disproves it? You describe a vicious, completely evil, circle, which I happen to agree with. The more justified idea is that every for-profit company harbours a seed of evil in their heart.

Profit is evil. But livelihood is a necessity and ordinary business should be conducted as per nature of livelihood. Profit is and remains evil.

And this little stray statement is curious,
Earlier legalisation tried to prune some thorns.
Did you mean legislation or legalisation? They are different things, as you well know. Legislation is to give some thing a scope, framework, or structure. Legalisation is to allow or permit the thing.

Legalisation does not try to prune some thorns. Legalisation permits thorns to do whatever it is that thorns do. The cookie directive did just that. The GDPR upped the free rein of banners, popups, splashes, and redirects exponentially. At least this is the observable effect.

In each and every web/app design office it will be the usual battle between greed (managers wanting ad income), fear (lawyers don't wanting company to be sued), and laziness (do as little as possible). This will go several rounds.
I agree that this is how the world tends to operate, but this is not how it should be. In addition to businesses with employers and employees, there is also the state bureacracy that should moderate business relations. Greed is evil, so it should be squished, not fomented. But the GDPR foments greed.

Advertising, getting their commercial message out, is the religion of for-profit businesses. They want to sell their thing regardless if anyone needs it or not. This is evil because it's directed at profit, beyond the nature of livelihood. It's evil because it disregards ordinary everyman's relationships and replaces them with commercial relationships.

A little analogy to help things along. It's my everyman's right to walk in a public space and to see whatever is placed there. Internet is such a public space. Commercially oriented websites want me to buy stuff or at least to click on specific things, which is approximately the equivalent to placing signs outside their shops. The signs are on a public space, they tend to block your steps, they also block your view in some directions to some extent, so the placement of the signs is or should be regulated. They should not disturb ordinary traffic too much.

The cookie directive demands cookie popups, creating barriers to normal traffic. In the above analogy, the cookie directive is equivalent to a legal regulation that says, "Every shop MUST put a sign outside their doorstep."

My faith is crumbling, but I am still trying to believe that you are a reasonable guy who somewhat comprehends that shops in fact WANT to put their signs out in the public space. Because they are greedy. The effect of the cookie directive was to not regulate those signs, not to moderate, but to legalise them without restriction, to give them free rein, ultimately fomenting greed.

The GDPR makes the same thing worse. The GDPR had been negotiated years ago with FB, G, MS, etc. (http://ec.europa.eu/justice/article-29/documentation/other-document/index_en.htm), so the GDPR is not a response to e.g. the recent scandal with Cambridge Analytica, or to Google tacitly admitting having turned evil (https://gizmodo.com/google-removes-nearly-all-mentions-of-dont-be-evil-from-1826153393). Instead, I think the GDPR is the EU giving the internet giants what they had been lobbying for. I have no idea what the GDPR says, but it's empirically obvious enough what its effects are, and I consider it reasonable to judge the thing by its fruits. Your eurocommissar lied to you, just like he did last time, and the time before that...
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-05-31, 14:23:19
Perhaps it's a social experiment on how much crap the EU citizens can take.
That's done all the time. Through consumerism people sold themselves into rats in the lab.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2018-07-04, 20:14:37
The GDPR nonsense worries Wikipedia too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_on_Copyright_in_the_Digital_Single_Market

Quote from: Wikipedia
This Wednesday we need your help. On 5 July 2018, the European Parliament will vote on a new copyright directive. If approved, these changes threaten to disrupt the open Internet that Wikipedia is a part of. You have time to act. Join the discussion. Thank you.

Edit: And this http://bnn-news.com/estonian-latvian-wikipedia-protest-against-eu-digital-copyright-directive-187351

The GDPR only adds to the evil. It was visible from afar.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2018-07-05, 12:03:26
You are completely confusing matters, which is one of the lesser problems with the proposed, and rejected 318-278 (31 abstaining) (https://twitter.com/Senficon/status/1014814460488413185), copyright law. It would be a bad law confused with a good law (GDPR). 

Wikipedia, and IT professionals in general, are not against GDPR. It is an uncommonly good thing, but as said just one step on a long parth.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2018-07-05, 12:13:28
Ah, you are right that I am confusing different EU directives here. However, the Wikipedia article says that it's indeed a bundle of directives, so the matter itself is confused and confusing. And I remind you that you have still not cited a single benefit of the GDPR to counterbalance its already observable evils.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-07-06, 00:11:06
If Goebells was around he would be smiling.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: krake on 2018-07-06, 11:19:27
If Goebells was around he would be smiling.
Do you think, he would care about Brexit?
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-07-06, 23:20:07
Nah he wouldn't be in charge but the control freakery of the EU in Europe would be fun for him!
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2018-07-28, 09:09:17
Ah, you are right that I am confusing different EU directives here. However, the Wikipedia article says that it's indeed a bundle of directives, so the matter itself is confused and confusing. And I remind you that you have still not cited a single benefit of the GDPR to counterbalance its already observable evils.

Actually I did. The Internet has taken a hard dystopian turn the last 15 years. Basically companies have been encouraged to extract as much personal information as possible on their customers and "customers" as they can, whether or not they need it (and they usually don't), because their share price will be higher if they do. To add to the injury, their data security is generally shit, so all your data will pretty much be in the hand of American, Chinese, Russian, and probably other intelligence agencies, plus whatever data freelance hackers come over for resale.

We have moved very fast towards a total surveillance society. Technology would probably have led us in this direction anyway, but business decisions have made the move much faster. GDPR has slowed this trend down, it hasn't reversed it. The companies are now more responsible for the data they collect and trade.  It could be likened to how factories early in the industrial revolution could pollute at will, whatever sludge ran from their pipes or gases from their chimneys were of no concern to them. Likewise IT companies could, should, gather data, and whatever happened to those further down the line was not their concern. This is more important long run than the features of GDPR itself. But GDPR has several goodies.

I am no great fan of consent, because it is not truly informed. With GDPR it is less uninformed, much simpler, and opt-in instead of opt-out. Opt-ins annoy you, but opt-outs aren't consent. Simpler opt-ins means something that can be tracked for you by the browser, which I imagine it will eventually. 

Right to be forgotten is a winner, as is right to access. This gives us access to the same information as the data aggregators have, and we can get them erased. That includes data passed on to other parties. A company can no longer sell data and not care where it is going. Most people would not actively get their data deleted, but with activists enough would to set up a system where this is easily achieved. In other words accountability will be built in, and with opt-in everyone benefits. 

This is further enhanced through privacy by design and privacy by default. This pushes companies towards minimal data gathering and retention rather than today's maximum and reselling. These don't have much teeth though, but those can be added later. 

Finally there are clearer requirements for safeguarding data and reporting breaches. That matters as well. Probably wouldn't stop the aforementioned intelligence agencies, but would give us better checks on the rest. 
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2018-07-28, 11:50:50
And I remind you that you have still not cited a single benefit of the GDPR to counterbalance its already observable evils.

Actually I did. The Internet has taken a hard dystopian turn the last 15 years. Basically companies have been encouraged to extract as much personal information as possible on their customers and "customers" as they can, whether or not they need it (and they usually don't), because their share price will be higher if they do. To add to the injury, their data security is generally shit, so all your data will pretty much be in the hand of American, Chinese, Russian, and probably other intelligence agencies, plus whatever data freelance hackers come over for resale.
And how does this counterbalance the evil? It is the evil.

In the 90's the situation was not so evil. Generally in the services I used, when I stopped using them, the account would self-destruct after a while. A few warnings arrived by email and when I took no action, right to be forgotten happened by itself!

GDPR allegedly revolves around right to be forgotten but it is not even attempting to return to those good old times.

I am no great fan of consent, because it is not truly informed. With GDPR it is less uninformed, much simpler, and opt-in instead of opt-out. Opt-ins annoy you, but opt-outs aren't consent. Simpler opt-ins means something that can be tracked for you by the browser, which I imagine it will eventually.
In European Union there is nothing to distinguish opt-in from opt-out. Opt-in and opt-out may exist in USA (and probably un UK), but not in (continental) Europe.

In European Union, there is just one thing: consent. And, with GDPR, it is consent loudly over any alleged rights. The consent is there for you to give consent to whatever the privacy policy demands of you, even though the privacy policy (or, more correctly, the popup for the public to give consent to the privacy policy) has no business to be there in the first place.

Right to be forgotten is a winner, as is right to access. This gives us access to the same information as the data aggregators have, and we can get them erased. That includes data passed on to other parties. A company can no longer sell data and not care where it is going.
Yes, these rights are cool, but GDPR does not address these rights. It does not give you the right to be forgotten. It does not give you the right to access.

GDPR does the opposite. GDPR demands websites to block public access unless the public acknowledges that they accept to be tracked by cookies, i.e. the public must give up the right to be anonymous even when they are not signed up or logged in.

Selling personal/confidential data was always illegal. All that needs to be done is to enforce the laws we already have in place. The GDPR should have stopped the practice of writing outrageous things in privacy policies that portals and webservices make you sign when you sign up. Does GDPR make privacy policies sensible and uniform across the board? I guess not.

Most people would not actively get their data deleted, but with activists enough would to set up a system where this is easily achieved. In other words accountability will be built in, and with opt-in everyone benefits.
As long as the self-destruct scheme of unused accounts is not a legal requirement, the situation of zero accountability and outrageous abuse will continue. In fact, it just worsened, because we are made to give consent to random privacy policies that nobody will ever read, and which for this reason should be legally required to be sensible and uniform across the board.

The problem is that privacy policies are stupid nonsense that are not worth reading. They are unlawful to begin with, that's why the only right thing is to ignore them. The effect of GDPR is that we are required to give consent to them even when we are not signing up or logging in anywhere.

This is further enhanced through privacy by design and privacy by default. This pushes companies towards minimal data gathering and retention rather than today's maximum and reselling. These don't have much teeth though, but those can be added later.

Finally there are clearer requirements for safeguarding data and reporting breaches. That matters as well. Probably wouldn't stop the aforementioned intelligence agencies, but would give us better checks on the rest.
You have bought into this bs so deeply there is no way helping you out of it.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-07-28, 23:26:31
The problem is that privacy policies are stupid nonsense that are not worth reading. They are unlawful to begin with, that's why the only right thing is to ignore them.
Exactly.
But ignore it is not enough.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2018-07-29, 14:43:59
'United Ireland' would slash £8.5bn from North's deficit (https://www.derryjournal.com/news/united-ireland-would-slash-8-5bn-from-north-s-deficit-1-8578805)

 (https://www.derryjournal.com/news/united-ireland-would-slash-8-5bn-from-north-s-deficit-1-8578805)
Quote
(https://res.cloudinary.com/jpress/image/fetch/w_700,f_auto,ar_3:2,q_auto:low,c_fill/if_h_lte_200,c_mfit,h_201/https://www.derryjournal.com/webimage/1.8578804.1532509964!/image/image.jpg)

A new report by an economist who worked with the IMF on German reunification argues the North would cease to be a financial dependency in the event of a 'United Ireland.'

Dr. Gunther Thumann calculates the North would save £8.5billion a year by leaving the UK and uniting with the rest of the country.

This would bring the North close to a balanced budget in a reunification scenario, working on a reported deficit figure of £9.2billion for 2013/14.

Dr. Thumann's 'Northern Ireland's Income and Expenditure in a Reunification scenario' report, was commissioned by the Oireachtas Good Friday Agreement Implementation Committee last month and co-authored by the Fianna Fáil Senator Mark Daly.

Contrary to claims the island of Ireland can't afford the North, Dr. Thumann maintains pension liabilites accrued while the 'Six Counties' were part of the UK would be London's responsibility, slashing £2.8billion a year from the deficit. An annual £2.9billion bill towards UK defence expenditure, debt interest, international service, EU contributions, and the upkeep of the UK royal family and other 'non-identifiable' items routinely charged to the people of the North would, equally, be of no concern for the governors of a new agreed Ireland. Up to £1.1bn in accounting adjustment figures attributed by Westminster to the North, meanwhile, would also no longer be applicable.

Dr. Thumann calculates that the amalgamation of the northern and southern public services would save £1.7bn a year resulting in a cumulative saving of £8.5bn without having even taken account of the likely potential for growth in the North as happened in East Germany following its reunification.

 (https://www.derryjournal.com/news/united-ireland-would-slash-8-5bn-from-north-s-deficit-1-8578805)A reunified Ireland would certainly have made Brexit negotiations a lot simpler.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-07-29, 17:57:20
Now more guff from EU lover jax. May I remind that Ireland ages back were desperate to get into the Europe club because they were financially a disaster. Even in more recent times we loaned the Dublin corner over 7 billion. Places like Ireland and other strained places like Portugal and others were not capable of a financial basis or run themselves properly and getting into the EU was a desperation and Ireland did greatly change because it could not find capability to manage itself.  Southern Ireland has much improved due to Europe handouts and good for them but we can exist with the EU and subsiding the less well off places.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2018-07-30, 17:56:43
And they are already implementing anti-VPN technologies https://www.is.fi/digitoday/art-2000005588554.html

The evilness is implemented by Kaltura, US-Israeli firm. The relevant error message is "No KS where KS is needed"

Next step: anti-anti-VPN technology! :knight:
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: rjhowie on 2018-07-31, 00:33:40
I would remind jax in his pomposity that apart from what I said can I remind that Southern Ireland only started getting somewhere because it had to be in the EU to be like countries like Portugal and others for the begging bowl.  We DID help Dublin financially.  As for the sneaking dig at the Royals I would also remind smart alec jax that we in hard money facts get the profits from the Royal estates side of things and about time that reminder aired.

What I have also said was that the Irish Republic has improved internally on political and religious headaches they had for decades. They are NOT going on about a united Ireland and for all my compliments for some Irish changes there are still aspects of down south that a great many in Ulster would not be happy with.It was that Sinn Fein crowd of very leftist gits that bum on about a united Ireland and as democratic as a bunch of old Soviet mentalities! They won't even sit in the UK parliament because of the royal oath issue. Away back before the 2nd World War we had a couple of Commies in Westminster and they sat there after the oath. It was the same bunch of  creeps who bumped off the N. Ireland Assembly by misusing an issue. The SF IS the political wing of the murderous Provisional IRA scumbags and Blair should never have pursued what he did forcing a shared situation.

I figured the European nut lot would make Brexit as awkward as damn possible and put on a front of being wonderful and so on. I am glad we are getting out and back in control and it is a damn disgrace that Euro lot cannot even get their annual "books" sorted year in and year out.  They go on yakking about the wonder of it all yet cannot do a decent job when someone democratically wants to leave!
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2018-08-13, 18:25:06
And they are already implementing anti-VPN technologies [...] The relevant error message is "No KS where KS is needed"

Next step: anti-anti-VPN technology! :knight:
Ha, I stumbled on a workaround completely on my own. And I am not sharing  :devil:
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ensbb3 on 2018-08-13, 22:20:45
Netflix has been blocking VPNs for sometime now. I don't remember what method I was using, probably a lazy one. Thought I wanted to watch the new Star Trek (I was wrong about that). I refuse to give CBS any money though. I mean, Netflix paid for it, I pay them - seems reasonable to stay the course. CBS still messed it up. 💩
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: krake on 2018-08-28, 20:24:53
Theresa May delights us by showing her dance skills

Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-08-28, 22:08:41
Theresa May delights us by showing her dance skills
Yes... maybe Putin dances better Afro folklore. I doubt RT to ever show us such splendid spectacle.

Brexit to them, just disappear forever.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2018-08-29, 12:14:22
Yes... maybe Putin dances better Afro folklore. I doubt RT to ever show us such splendid spectacle.
Putin is no stranger to dancing https://youtu.be/sC2DNWLEDrY?t=45

And not to singing either https://youtu.be/IV4IjHz2yIo?t=80

He is awesome like Yeltsin https://youtu.be/cRysHHzLAmM?t=20
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-08-29, 16:20:15
And not to singing either https://youtu.be/IV4IjHz2yIo?t=80 (https://youtu.be/IV4IjHz2yIo?t=80)
I can't help but notice Gérard Depardieu.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2018-08-29, 16:32:51
I can't help but notice Gérard Depardieu.
Yes, he strikes the screen so powerfully that you barely notice Vincent Cassel, Goldie Hawn, Kurt Russell, Kevin Costner, etc.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-08-29, 18:45:16
Exactly. :)
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-10-27, 00:27:37
Putin is no stranger to dancing https://youtu.be/sC2DNWLEDrY?t=45 (https://youtu.be/sC2DNWLEDrY?t=45)

And not to singing either https://youtu.be/IV4IjHz2yIo?t=80 (https://youtu.be/IV4IjHz2yIo?t=80)
He even rides bears half naked, practices karate and plays piano.
That should make him an hero in Russia...
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: krake on 2018-10-27, 09:22:07
He even rides bears half naked, ...
Would you mind sharing your cartoon collection? :)
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-10-29, 00:07:00
Would you mind sharing your cartoon collection?  :)
It's public.
(https://image.ibb.co/cmQAoA/main-qimg-d6c9a75c89bb984aae6bec8f199eb610-c.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

Yep.. Photoshop probably, fake news. Trump is right.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Belfrager on 2018-11-18, 16:10:36
European Union against Killer Robots

Source Future of Life Institute (https://futureoflife.org/2018/09/14/european-parliament-passes-resolution-supporting-a-ban-on-killer-robots/)

Quote
The European Parliament passed a resolution on September 12, 2018 calling for an international ban on lethal autonomous weapons systems (LAWS). The resolution was adopted with 82% of the members voting in favor of it.

Among other things, the resolution calls on its Member States and the European Council "to develop and adopt, as a matter of urgency ... a common position on lethal autonomous weapon systems that ensures meaningful human control over the critical functions of weapon systems, including during deployment."

The UN has not been able to take advances against such important matter because...
Quote
The countries that took the strongest stances against a LAWS ban at the recent UN meeting were the United States, Russia, South Korea, and Israel.

Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-11-18, 20:13:35
Not China? Interesting.
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Jochie on 2018-11-19, 14:57:02

The UN has not been able to take advances against such important matter because...
Quote
The countries that took the strongest stances against a LAWS ban at the recent UN meeting were the United States, Russia, South Korea, and Israel.


I wonder who is wagging what tail. Generally, the United States will do as directed by Israel.

At the State Department we used to predict that if Israel's prime minister should announce that the world is flat, within 24 hours Congress would pass a resolution congratulating him on the discovery."- A CHANGING IMAGE, Richard H. Curtiss Foreign Service Officer


Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: jax on 2018-12-13, 08:50:38
Quote
The thing is, the best way to understand Theresa May's predicament is to imagine that 52 percent of Britain had voted that the government should build a submarine out of cheese.


https://twitter.com/hugorifkind/status/1072222352035987456
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-12-13, 12:51:48
That sounds like one of those '50s cartoons. :)
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2019-01-11, 19:16:17
 Brexit timeline: key dates in UK's divorce from EU  (https://www.ft.com/content/64e7f218-4ad4-11e7-919a-1e14ce4af89b)
Quote
The UK is scheduled to leave the EU at 11pm local time on March 29 2019.
Just a little bit more patience :)
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: Frenzie on 2019-01-11, 21:51:03
Here's a vocab list: https://www.touteleurope.eu/actualite/brexique-le-lexique-du-brexit.html
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2019-02-24, 07:30:10
EU's final Copyright Reform upholds disastrous upload filters

Quote from: https://thenextweb.com/eu/2019/02/14/eus-final-copyright-reform-upholds-disastrous-upload-filters/
The final text of Article 11 -- which has been the other major bone of contention -- also ended up being pretty much what opponents had feared, limiting the ability for any service to show snippets with links.

[...]

Parliament says Article 11 will allow hyperlinks to news articles to be accompanied by "individual words or very short extracts" without payments to rightsholders.
This seems to be about how search results would look like in a search engine. What a stupid thing to regulate. Even more, I think it is a stupid feature of the internet that there have to be search engines that display the results of *web crawlers* rather than what is really live on the internet. Web crawlers prioritise specific websites, say news portals, that they monitor constantly, so you get fresh stuff from those high-priority websites via search engine, while the search engine neglects other stuff. This has always been so, it is bad enough as it is, and it only makes it worse when regulators limit sharing content that is hard to get to in the first place.

The new regulation prevents displaying too much in the search engine, unless the search engine provider wants to "remunerate creators" even when "creators" have made it available to web crawlers. Probably Google's "cached" feature for pdf files in the search results will be gone - or gone for Europeans only. Total idiots at EU Commission.

But if the regulation is about more than just search results, if it's about, say, forum posts, twittering, news aggregators, then the EU Commission pretty much suppresses *sharing.* If so, the only safe place remains IRC. And darkweb.

The thing they should have done is to teach "creators" to not publish their stuff, to not make it available to web crawlers or other eyes on the internet. Don't "creators" have their own private/protected platforms where to share their stuff securely until their stuff becomes ready for publication? I have it (e.g. typing on my computer offline before I publish), so why don't they have it?

Quote from: https://thenextweb.com/eu/2019/02/14/eus-final-copyright-reform-upholds-disastrous-upload-filters/
The final text of the Copyright Reform will now have to be approved by the Legal Affairs Committee, then voted on by member state governments in the European Council -- but it'll likely be passed there.
Oh, still another vote to go...
Title: Re: The comings and goings of the European Union
Post by: ersi on 2019-04-13, 16:03:19
Quote from: https://www.ft.com/content/64e7f218-4ad4-11e7-919a-1e14ce4af89b
The UK is scheduled to leave the EU at 11pm local time on March 29 2019.
Oh no, this is not going according to schedule :(
Title: Schedules?!
Post by: Barulheira on 2019-04-13, 21:43:10
Quote from: https://www.ft.com/content/64e7f218-4ad4-11e7-919a-1e14ce4af89b
The UK is scheduled to leave the EU at 11pm local time on March 29 2019.
Oh no, this is not going according to schedule :(
Oh, no! They are becoming Brazilian!