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General => DnD Central => Topic started by: rjhowie on 2020-07-14, 00:15:24

Title: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: rjhowie on 2020-07-14, 00:15:24
Makes me wonder why so much is spent in vast massive sums to send rockets all into the Universe and even some would-be experts musing on getting us to places like Mars. What a load of cobblers and not much real point to the general people who live on Earth.
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2020-07-14, 08:06:10
send rockets all into the Universe
These are the voyages..?
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: jax on 2020-07-14, 16:58:25
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhMEKiIb86I
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: rjhowie on 2020-07-25, 00:37:41
The main point is the vast amounts of money being pent on all this Universe guff. Not as if people have somewhere to rocket off to and anyway most places a waste f damn time. Talk about people being brained.  :down:
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: jax on 2020-07-26, 15:45:54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaWM-hMPUx8
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: rjhowie on 2020-07-27, 01:05:50
You'll be okay as you know mental health is free on the NHS.
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: Belfrager on 2021-02-11, 12:22:44
So... the United Emirates beated China and USA and their space probe arrived first to Mars (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-55998848).

Welldone. Yes, I know it is not a race... but it is.
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: jax on 2021-02-11, 12:54:07
The Chinese is timed neatly for the Spring festival. The year of the metal rat is ending, and we're now entering a metal bullish year.

(https://miro.medium.com/max/875/1*w4oTZwDqtGu8OARczvSvOA.jpeg)
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: Barulheira on 2021-02-11, 19:55:16
Metal rules.  :headbang:
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2021-03-17, 18:14:49


Meanwhile @ SpaceX
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: ersi on 2021-03-17, 19:01:21
Here is a more complete video of the landing. It was a blast. As it has been every time.


Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: Frenzie on 2021-03-17, 20:51:47
Meanwhile @ SpaceX
Meanwhile in my brain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKKVoR1X5lM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlbhFyVXnro
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: jax on 2021-03-18, 06:00:39
The sense of deja vu is strong. I did link to my Back to the Space Age (https://jaxroam.medium.com/the-future-history-of-the-expanse-eb474d991268?source=friends_link&sk=c687bd0e2d4def3f4b84718b5c33cf30) piece in another thread, but I guess a rerun is better than an also-ran. (Speaking of media nostalgia, I guess I should watch For All Mankind, but haven't gotten around to it yet.)
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: Belfrager on 2021-03-18, 07:35:20
Mr Elon Musk sent a Tesla car to  space orbiting the earth, wasn't it? He thinks space to be his personal trash can vanity.
Space is not his property, as that idiot seems to think.
Hope all his rockets explode. Beautiful.
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: ersi on 2021-03-18, 08:11:01
Hope all his rockets explode. Beautiful.
Thus far most of them have exploded. It is on track.
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: Frenzie on 2021-03-18, 17:35:41
The sense of deja vu is strong. I did link to my Back to the Space Age (https://jaxroam.medium.com/the-future-history-of-the-expanse-eb474d991268?source=friends_link&sk=c687bd0e2d4def3f4b84718b5c33cf30) piece in another thread, but I guess a rerun is better than an also-ran. (Speaking of media nostalgia, I guess I should watch For All Mankind, but haven't gotten around to it yet.)

Incidentally:
Quote
Base orbiting Jupiter moon and Venus (or on Venus, if story written early 60s or before)
That applies to my favorite piece of Dutch sci-fi, see http://www.letterenfonds.nl/nl/boek/824/torenhoog-en-mijlen-breed
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2021-03-19, 02:54:22
You really can't ask more out of the Starship Program. Just when you think you've seen it blow up all the ways, they land one on fire and then it explodes. Pretty much Kerbal Space Program irl.
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2021-03-19, 02:57:25
Mr Elon Musk sent a Tesla car to  space orbiting the earth, wasn't it?

It's in orbit of the Sun. Seems like they said it passes close to Mars too, sometimes, so probably an elliptical orbit between Earth and Mars.
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: rjhowie on 2021-03-20, 01:46:09
space is still a waste of time and vast money showing that too many folk have not grown up.
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: ersi on 2021-03-20, 08:15:56
Elon Musk blows stuff up in the name of science and progress. These are good causes.
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: rjhowie on 2021-03-21, 02:59:38
Spending billions on floating about space and no practical living in planets is a total waste of dashed money and shows how folk can be brained.
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2021-03-30, 16:12:54
I guess I can understand your problem with governments spending, but what's your problem with how billionaires spend their money?
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: ersi on 2021-03-30, 19:52:49
Elon Musk is hardly spending his own money. Like with every good CEO, his most important function is fundraiser. He attracts investment (i.e. creates hype) to a project and that's the money that gets spent. Government money might be among there, might not. Some of Musk's own money might be spent in projects that he really believes in, but I don't think he really believes in any of the projects he is famous for.

I watched Elon Musk's appearance on Joe Rogan show. At one point, Joe Rogan asked something like "But how did you get the licence for digging the tunnel under LA?" and Elon Musk looked at him confused, as if puzzled "Licence for digging? What's that?" He did not answer the question. He might have been already pre-confused for the entire day. It was the show when they did weed on camera.
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: ensbb3 on 2021-03-30, 23:05:39
 I just hope they name one Enterprise. So we can legit say The Starship Enterprise. :spock:


Edit: This last launch was lackluster, huh? I haven't got to see one blow up mid air. Missed opportunity.
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2021-03-31, 19:22:31
It was the show when they did weed on camera.
And to provide silly talking-points to flat-earthers, cynical greenies, an' a certain Scot whose name we won't mention! But, ersi, riddle me this: Was the "discovery" of America less a feat and fortuitous boon because Isabella finance it? :)
To speak to your specific point: Securing the tunneling rights beneath LaLa (eh? you say!?) is a political matter. Some builders are oblivious; some are adept. (You thought Trump was the naif who got the job -candidate, then presidency- by bluster and buffoonery?
That tells me you've had too much schoolin' an' too little learning! Or -at best- the mix was too uneven, and your list is noticeable...

Thanks for recommending Aristotle on politics to me! Them Attics and others of their time (cellar hiders, maybe?) did wonders: Surely something can learned from their experience and example; some of their schemes secured peace and prosperity for nigh onto a generation!
The United States stands -at my studied urging- ready to faint, in awe... Shucks! :)
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: ersi on 2021-04-01, 07:02:21
It was the show when they did weed on camera.
And to provide silly talking-points to flat-earthers, cynical greenies, an' a certain Scot whose name we won't mention! But, ersi, riddle me this: Was the "discovery" of America less a feat and fortuitous boon because Isabella finance it? :)
Elon Musk is not discovering anything. The entire latter half of last century was the space age. Space has already been discovered and all the relevant technology has been invented. Musk's Spacex is deploying the existing technology and calling it invention and discovery.

(You thought Trump was the naif who got the job -candidate, then presidency- by bluster and buffoonery?
Yes, Trump bluffed himself to the presidency. Bluster and buffoonery is his style of managing anything and everything. Putin's army of hackers helped a bit too, which might have been the tipping point.

These facts are not worrying by themselves. Rather, it is worrying that in USA such behaviour goes completely unpunished.

Same with Musk. It should have been somebody's job in his team to secure the licences to start drilling the city's underground. Well, breaches in the area of construction - particularly including outrageous breaches - go mostly unpunished here too.

Why do you seem like a fan of Musk? He is not even American.

Thanks for recommending Aristotle on politics to me!
There are those who assume that Ἀθηναίων πολιτεία is misattributed to Aristotle. I am solidly in that camp. I don't like anything written by Aristotle, but I like that book very much, so I'm sure it is not by Aristotle.
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: OakdaleFTL on 2021-04-01, 08:56:39
Elon Musk is not discovering anything. The entire latter half of last century was the space age. Space has already been discovered and all the relevant technology has been invented.
Neither -really- did Columbus... Certainly, not Isabella nor Spain, either! :)
Musk "discovered" how to get teams of engineers to pursue a technological advance only commonplace in pulp fiction: Re-usable, self-returning boosters. The damn things flip during descent and safely (usually :) sit their ass fins down on dry (relatively) land! Do you have any idea of the cost savings that single advance will net? And the rebirth of inspiration the sight of such, "live and direct" as Edison Carter used to say (TV show, Max Headroom...) might instil. You surely don't mean to tell me that America's space program wasn't anemic at best, sclerotic and feeble at worst, before SpaceX? Hell, we had to pay the Russians to ferry our astronauts to ISS; and we'd been using the Russian-made Atlas boosters for everything less than military hush-hush missions since our "space detente" in the '80s... The dream of space had become just a jumble of pastel promises put on editorial whiteboards beside all the black-and-white bad news (...in living color, of course!)!
It's true that NASA continued good work, with robotics and long-term probes... Which the public just wasn't excited by. John Q. and Ivan D. no longer cared. In the smaller democracies (...please, let's not quibble over that terminology), I'd bet Howie's attitude is the most prevalent one:
"I've got my telly, but the shows are no good because Gov.fu wastes so much money on egghead's dreams. I could eat better, if we  never "explored" beyond the tip of our noses, mate! And the fools who risk their lives to go -- essentially nowhere, take money that could have paid for my retirement..." is what you hear from un-interested people. And politicians who dream big things are relegated to the Also-Rans category, accomplishing never more than pyric programs like the Space Shuttle...
Even people who know better shrug off the chance of EMP-calamity, knowing less than 1 trillion $ U.S, would obviate the dangers of another Carrington Event, let alone a malicious nuke attack from a belligerent bad-guy country.
I'm tired. And you're too young to be such a cynic, my friend...

I don't like anything written by Aristotle, but I like that book very much, so I'm sure it is not by Aristotle.
:) You used to sing a different tune! (Have you accepted the Frege/Pierce modern logic of quantification at last? Whence came syllogism? :)
I'll agree he (Aristotle) was wrong about almost everything he wrote about. Like his teacher before him, he was a mediocre student. (Oh, if only Socrates had refused the hemlock and avoided his kangaroo court date! Think of all the pomposity and stubborn wrongheadedness he might have pilloried as an itinerant gadfly!?
But no. A systematizer (Plato-the Sourpuss) took up Ethics and -the gods help us!- epistemology and even ontology! (Luckily for some, he'd not forgot his childhood tales of Atlantis! :) )
Your reasoning above requires a universe of discourse severely limited -- by what your schoolmaster gave you to work with...  Where -if anywhere-would your sense of adventure take you, if only you'd let it?
_____________
Did you ever read C. Northcote Parkinson's book on political science via history? I know I recommended it to you... (Since the book was never translated -form plain English to academic gobbledygook- it might be hard to find: Let me know, huh?
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: ersi on 2021-04-01, 10:26:16
Do you have any idea of the cost savings that single advance will net?
Space Shuttles have been tried. It turned out "pyric" as you say.

For dense usage of near-earth rockets, there needs to be a market somewhere for cargo and public transportation that airplanes cannot fill. The rockets should provide at least a significant load or speed or maintenance advantage. They are not providing any of it.

Electric cars are not properly taking off either. They are good only for short distances, and luckily for them, most driving is over short distances. Over longer distances, where you need to refill, combustion engines are still much better - refill in minutes and continue.

Somehow the awesome Tesla engineers have not even come up with the idea that the electric car batteries could be removable: Arrive at the refill station, give away your empty batteries, put new charged batteries in the car and continue. It would be somewhat faster, I suppose. If not, then electric cars can only survive by forcing them by regulation.

Overall the entire idea of electric cars as eco-friendly is misguided. To be eco-friendly, we absolutely do not need more cars. We need to drastically reduce the number of cars.

And you're too young to be such a cynic, my friend...
I'm older than Emacs!

I don't like anything written by Aristotle, but I like that book very much, so I'm sure it is not by Aristotle.
:) You used to sing a different tune! (Have you accepted the Frege/Pierce modern logic of quantification at last? Whence came syllogism? :)
Aristotle can be credited with formulating the syllogism, but valid deductive reasoning definitely precedes him. Quantification is secondary and rests the syllogism.

I have heard that in Bangladesh people have lots of respect for Vivekananda, but hardly any respect for Ramakrishna. I wonder what they make of the fact that Ramakrishna was Vivekananda's guru, not the other way.

Did you ever read C. Northcote Parkinson's book on political science via history? I know I recommended it to you... (Since the book was never translated -form plain English to academic gobbledygook- it might be hard to find: Let me know, huh?
First read what's easily available online. Of course exercise your discernment to find what is valuable.
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: Frenzie on 2021-04-01, 16:51:20
Somehow the awesome Tesla engineers have not even come up with the idea that the electric car batteries could be removable: Arrive at the refill station, give away your empty batteries, put new charged batteries in the car and continue. It would be somewhat faster, I suppose. If not, then electric cars can only survive by forcing them by regulation.
I imagine it's very much a matter of cost of some sort. The concept is beyond obvious after all.
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: ersi on 2021-04-01, 18:01:42
Yes, the concept is obvious, and the benefits for the consumer are obvious. Yet e.g. in mobile phones the development was to make batteries non-removable precisely to make things worse for everybody. It's the way progress works.
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: Colonel Rebel on 2021-04-02, 02:45:11
I know Howie is talking about the Space Force, but cryptocurrency investments are doing quite well right now.

How I regret not accepting those 20 Bitcoin that kindly Scot I met at a party offered me back in 2011. :(
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: jax on 2021-04-02, 08:23:39
Somehow the awesome Tesla engineers have not even come up with the idea that the electric car batteries could be removable: Arrive at the refill station, give away your empty batteries, put new charged batteries in the car and continue. It would be somewhat faster, I suppose. If not, then electric cars can only survive by forcing them by regulation.
I imagine it's very much a matter of cost of some sort. The concept is beyond obvious after all.

Two (or three) worlds

The initial attraction of Tesla, presumably what attracted Musk to join Tesla in the first placce, was the faster, smoother sports car. The electrical motor is superior to the combustion engine, but the battery is an inferior energy store.

Nio was not the first Chinese company with swappable batteries. I trace that evolution back to this beauty:

Spotted in China: Xiaoshuidi Electric Vehicle (https://carnewschina.com/2010/08/26/spotted-in-china-xiaoshuidi-electric-vehicle/)

(https://carnewschina.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/xiaoshuidi-ev-1.jpg)

Not the first electric car by any means, but one of the prettiest. The goal was obviously not a sleek sports car, but a way to get where you want cheaply. Crucially it was powered by a good old (and cheap) lead acid car battery, and those batteries are standardised, and thus swappable. 

There were earlier pioneers, like the Norwegian Pivco/Think Global (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_Global), that preceded either by a decade. Neither sleek nor cheap, but environmentally conscious, it never achieved commercial success.


(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Pivco_PIV3_2.jpg)

That car was basically a driving battery. In that regards it reminds me of the Scania NXT concept vehicle. The concept is to swap hoods, so that it can be a bus at day, a cargo truck at night, but all that means is that you can swap the drive train. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N3elygeUA4


Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: Belfrager on 2021-04-02, 08:31:21
Neither sleek nor cheap, but environmentally conscious, it never achieved commercial success.
That's the fallacy of electric cars - being environmentally conscious. The only thing that can be environmentally conscious is to reduce drastically the number of cars.
Title: Re: Money dumped in vast amounts for space?
Post by: jax on 2021-04-02, 12:27:09
Yes, that was badly phrased. The number of cars is the main problem, but switching to electric motors helps a lot. Roughly speaking an EV has half the lifetime emissions of an ICE vehicle (1/6th in the best case). But if there are twice as many EVs as there are petrol cars today, little is won (though by that time "best case" ought to be normal case). They are still cars though they pollute less and are less noisy.