The DnD Sanctuary

General => Browsers & Technology => Topic started by: Frenzie on 2014-08-09, 15:27:35

Title: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-08-09, 15:27:35
Because of my uneventful minor upgrade (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=85.msg25141#msg25141) I decided to reintroduce Windows 7 on one of my disks for gaming purposes. But during installation, Windows kept complaining about not being able to find or use a "system disk" (read: bootable partition), even though I explicitly cleared out an entire disk for it to do with as it pleased. I tried preparing partitions in GParted, but no luck.

In a last-ditch effort I physically unplugged each and every one of my drives except the one on which I wanted to install Windows. What do you know? It worked. The bottom line: this kind of stuff is why I purged Windows from my system in 2011.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Macallan on 2014-08-09, 16:53:41
Heh, I remember NT4 pulling something related on me. Long story short - adding a SCSI controller rendered the system unbootable. The problem is that Windows keeps a path to its root partition somewhere, and this path like kinda like this:
scsi(0)disk(1)partition(0)/NTOSKRNL.EXE. The problem is, that NT4 ( and I'm not sure how many subsequent versions ) treated all storage controllers like SCSI controllers, and the one I added somehow ended up first in the list, pushing the onboard IDE channels further down, so the root path didn't point at the right disk anymore -> bluescreen.
And that's with changing the path in boot.ini. Without that the boot loader wouldn't even start since it wouldn't find any NT kernel to load. Too bad you can't get to the registry and change the root path as well.
Leaves the question, since they already emulate an ARC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_RISC_Computing) boot environment ( That's where the weird-ass naming convention comes from. The other prominent user was Silicon Graphics btw., and they don't have that problem since you configure both the kernel and the root path in the firmware so they can be changed without any OS running ) then why did they half-ass it instead of going the whole mile and put the root path into boot.ini as well, or use variables like real ARC firmware.
Removing the SCSI controller allowed Windows to boot. Putting it back in - no go. Had to reinstall the whole damn thing just because somebody at Microsoft thought that making options inaccessible is a good idea.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-08-09, 17:22:05
I've had an issue related to that. The problem wasn't booting (presumably because this was XP or 7 rather than NT 4), but that upon booting it had decided the boot partition/drive should be called D:\. But apparently Windows required the boot partition to be known as C:\? By itself this might've been "simple" to fix by switching around two drives physically, but apparently it had done some automated repair stuff or something, because after doing that suddenly it was complaining that it couldn't find certain files required for loading Windows on D:\... I waited for it to do something automatically to fix itself the same way it had messed itself up, but no cigar. Naturally, I had to reinstall the whole thing.

In Linux, meanwhile, at worst I'd have to use a LiveCD or some such to fix up my /etc/fstab a little by hand. So. much. simpler.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Macallan on 2014-08-10, 00:33:41
I've seen that in win2k ( the last one I used before dumping windows for good ) - the operating system itself doesn't really use drive letters but a whole bunch of userland does. It doesn't expect to live on c:\ but it better be whatever drive letter you installed it on. For some reason, some day windows decided to rearrange drive letters ( I probably added a disk or something ) and then complain that it couldn't find a bunch of files. Had to rearrange them back to where they were. Also, from win2k on, NTFS has kinda-sorta mountpoints.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Belfrager on 2014-08-10, 18:44:35
For the most part of the population, Windows it's like Churchill words about democracy - the worst form of Operative System, except for all those other ones.

My loyal XP is dying but it managed to overpass Vista and still maintains dignity... it was good enough to kept me apart from Seven, Eight and whatever.

After XP, nothing. I need no computers anymore, android toys will be enough.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-08-11, 12:17:32
Windows 7 is... reasonable.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2014-08-11, 12:25:19
2000 was the best of them all, but it's long since gone. XP is being forcefully killed off. I liked XP less than 2000. 7 is reasonable compared to Vista and 8, but pretty much anything else than Vista or 8 is more reasonable...
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Sparta on 2014-08-12, 01:48:06
multiboot XP, 7,8 , linux .

eliminate that  frustation  .  :ninja:

Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2014-08-12, 13:49:58
This is the first time since 2011 that Windows has made it onto my primary computer, not counting virtual machines. Alas, I desire to play some games not available on Linux. That aside, I also intend to see what Achron (http://www.achrongame.com/) runs like on this setup in Linux.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Macallan on 2014-08-12, 17:26:44

multiboot XP, 7,8 , linux .

eliminate that  frustation  .  :ninja:

By getting rid of all of them? :right:
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Macallan on 2014-08-12, 17:28:07

This is the first time since 2011 that Windows has made it onto my primary computer, not counting virtual machines. Alas, I desire to play some games not available on Linux.

The games I still care about all run on my old 2x2GHz G5 :left:
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2015-04-04, 08:52:24
At someone's request for an installation of Windows, I decided, out of some interest in the latest developments of Windows OS, accompanied by my thought "Since he insists, let him suffer," to install Windows 10 Technical Preview.

The first thing to do was to download the ISO and find a way to make a bootable device out of it. USB stick did not work (failed to boot). The first attempt to put it onto DVD with Xfburn ruined the DVD disc. A second attempt with K3b and another DVD disc finally booted.

Once the installer booted in the DVD drive, it became clear that there's no live boot. No way to check out what the opsys can offer other than to make a complete install.

Then it became clear that there's no easy way to begin installing because, as the Windows installer complained, the harddrive of the machine was "partitioned GPT style". (The machine in question had had Ubuntu at first.) For a change I booted to Linux on the machine and tried things with GParted, but the Windows installer remained complaining all the same. It was time to look up on the net what GPT means and how to get past it.

The answers on YT said that immediately as the Windows installer boots,



The last command will totally obliterate the structure of partitions, not to mention the data, on the disk. The upside is that you can proceed with the installation of your Windows. (A corollary seems to be: The only way to dual-boot is to install Linux after Windows.)

One of the interests in getting to see Windows 10 was the famous Project Spartan that was supposed to have superceded IE. A website instructs (http://devchannel.modern.ie/techpreview/1503), "You can try Project Spartan using the "globe" icon on the taskbar." This is false. The globe icon was nowhere to be found, while the blue "e" icon was rather prominent.

A totally different website instructs (http://www.tekrevue.com/tip/enable-the-spartan-edge-rendering-engine-windows-10/), "Launch Internet Explorer 11 and type about:flags... Find the option labeled Enable Experimental Web Platform Features and select Enabled. Click the Apply Changes button at the bottom of the page and then completely close and restart Internet Explorer."

These instructions were possible to follow through in practice, but they led to no visible changes in the look and behaviour of the browser. In other words, a total letdown.

An incidental detail: The size of the Windows 10 Technical Preview installer is 4 GB. In a Linux distro with this size you get everything - a bunch of browsers, office suits, multimedia players and codecs, all Linux games historically produced, etc. In Windows you will still have to install that stuff separately. But this was already beyond what I was asked to do. Let him suffer.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-04-04, 10:40:38
After XP, nothing. I need no computers anymore, android toys will be enough.

Not true, I installed 7 and I like it. On the other hand I got tired of android toys.
So, I have a windows 2003 server, a XP, a Vista and a 7. Maybe I should make a museum.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-04-04, 13:19:01
Then it became clear that there's no easy way to begin installing because, as the Windows installer complained, the harddrive of the machine was "partitioned GPT style". (The machine in question had had Ubuntu at first.) For a change I booted to Linux on the machine and tried things with GParted, but the Windows installer remained complaining all the same. It was time to look up on the net what GPT means and how to get past it.

I had this problem myself. Last week I upgraded from my 2011 128 GB SSD (now in my laptop) to a new 256 GB Crucial MX100. Anyway, part of the intent there was to put Windows on the SSD as well (at ~80GB I'm still ahead on space for Linux). Unfortunately, Windows is way too difficult. It doesn't want to migrate to GPT (perish the thought) because I'm on an "old" computer with BIOS, it wants the first partition on the drive, etc. It probably took me several hours to figure out the exact things Windows wants (with copying the partition several times included and such; not several hours of activity on my end), whereas migrating Linux took roughly 4 minutes. In the end the only way I could get it to work was by simply copying the whole MBR and partition table from the HDD that housed Windows.

Windows is an unusable POS. That aside, the speed difference with Windows on the SSD is staggering. It almost seems usable, once you finally get it to work.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2015-04-08, 09:19:47

Windows is an unusable POS. That aside, the speed difference with Windows on the SSD is staggering. It almost seems usable, once you finally get it to work.

The speed difference is staggering compared to what? Compared to HDD, to Linux or to earlier versions of Windows? Which versions of Windows have you installed on SSD?
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-04-08, 14:11:19
In the end the only way I could get it to work was by simply copying the whole MBR and partition table from the HDD that housed Windows.

*ahem* :P The HDD that housed Windows is a Samsung 7200RPM 320GB HDD that I bought in early '07. It was plenty fast back then, but my newer Toshiba (Hitachi) 5400RPM 2013 2TB HDD is rather impressively about twice as fast for probably all intents and purposes while using less energy to boot. (Speed was hardly a concern.)

It's Windows 7. I also have XP, 7, and 8 VMs thanks to modern.ie. They take the pain out of it.

On Linux I can just juggle my partitions and partition tables about however I like. Windows is a stupid, annoying little crybaby.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ensbb3 on 2015-04-19, 01:44:57
On Linux I can just juggle my partitions and partition tables about however I like. Windows is a stupid, annoying little crybaby.

Indeed. (http://www.disk-partition.com/free-partition-manager.html)
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-04-19, 08:38:47
I'm talking about the fact that Windows just won't boot unless a very specific set of requirements is met, not about which OS or software was used to manipulate partitions. It would seem that for non-OS partitions you can do pretty much whatever you like.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2015-04-19, 10:16:41
Does ensbb3 ever reboot his machine? Modern machines with that thing called UEFI take quite some fiddling to be able to multiboot. UEFI is the kind of BIOS that likes to own the machine and prevent bootup when partitions have been tampered with. On top of this, Windows adds its own "protective layer" and acts hysterical when whatever partitions (not necessarily Windows' own partitions) have been tampered with.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-04-19, 10:30:27
I figured I'd go with a GPT partition table because that way you can have more than four primary partitions (without bothering with the extended partition nonsense), but Windows apparently refuses to work with GPT unless you have an UEFI BIOS. Just another pleasant surprise.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ensbb3 on 2015-04-19, 18:08:01
I used that once to resize partitions for other OS's from Windows without errors. I've screwed them up doing it from Linux before and had to reinstall everything. I'm not smart enough to manually fix them. (For me that's Windows 8, Windows 7, Xubuntu and one or two other Linux distributions, depending on what I'm playing around with. Generally if I like it with VM I'll install it eventually.)

Since I'm of no help, I'll simply move on. :P
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2015-04-19, 18:50:32
It's just that you were not properly on topic. This is Windows Frustration Thread.

I have partitioned disks only in Linux, because partitioning only became relevant to me when I had decided to get rid of Windows for good. Once I had decided this, the machine that I had at the time became fair game for free experimentation. So I partitioned and installed and reinstalled and repartitioned Linuxes on it until I considered my skills passable.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-04-19, 19:44:45
I've always considered two partitions a must for Windows. The easiest way to reinstall is just to wipe C:\, while D:\ holds all of your essential files and folders. Most Linuxes automatically go for such an arrangement with / and /home, but perhaps ironically they don't seem to get bogged down the way Windows does. (Or did?)
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ensbb3 on 2015-04-19, 21:12:23
It's just that you were not properly on topic. This is Windows Frustration Thread.

In fairness, I'd had to of used more words to be either on or off topic. I feel like I was close enough. Not that that means I was.
Does ensbb3 ever reboot his machine?

I am curious what brought this question? The software I offered requires a reboot and has to enter a shell to rewrite registries (or whatever it needs to do that I can't) to work.
I've always considered two partitions a must for Windows.

Absolutely. I have a 1TB drive dedicated to archives, media and whatever else rather than keeping things in with any of the OS's partitions. I'm not putting all my eggs in Windows' basket for sure.

Thinking back I've had this problem twice. The first time I did reinstall everything. And why I accidentally understand what Mac said earlier in this thread... The second time I used a Linux based repair CD (ok USB) to merge the split back into win8's partition and put everything back as it was (I may of deleted the bootloader too(grub), not sure.) but got win8 to boot again. After trying a couple different programs I came across that software I linked and completed the task.

Y'all won't have any trouble convincing me you understand the underlying principle better than I. But I believe I've had the same if not very similar trouble. I fixed it so I offered.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2015-04-20, 07:49:38

Does ensbb3 ever reboot his machine?

I am curious what brought this question? The software I offered requires a reboot and has to enter a shell to rewrite registries (or whatever it needs to do that I can't) to work.

I didn't know that about the software. Naturally, because I didn't know about the software in the first place.

My question was prompted by disbelief in that you take partitioning under and around a Windows installation to be a trivial matter. Of course, your first reply was too brief to justify any assumptions about your actual position, so my question was deliberately designed to exaggerate in many ways so as to hopefully make you clarify your position. You now have.

My own experience with Windows+partitioning is limited to manufacturers' pre-installations (plus now the Windows 10 installation I did on my own, but this is a very recent unique event), where my task was to make Windows believe that nothing changed even though I halved the disk and made it a multiboot with Linux. This has never been a trivial matter.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ensbb3 on 2015-04-20, 18:48:01
plus now the Windows 10 installation I did on my own,

What's your opinion of that? If I may ask?

I figured I'd replace win8 with it when it released. If it's not worse off. Some of my older games won't play in 8 so I keep 7 installed.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2015-04-20, 19:52:32

plus now the Windows 10 installation I did on my own,

What's your opinion of that? If I may ask?

I figured I'd replace win8 with it when it released. If it's not worse off.

I thought everybody knew that anything is better than win8. This is true of even Vista. 7 and 10 are much better, and very similar to each other.

There are a few things that 10 borrows from 8, such as those tiles with weather and stocks and news and winstore, but they have been moved to the menu in an ignorable way.

I have heard that 7 has a nice search field for apps in the menu (i.e. press Win key and type to filter up an app, then Enter to launch the app - I have configured the Whisker menu in Xfce the same way, and it's preconfigured like this since Manjaro Xfce 0.8.9). This is missing in Win 10, but can probably be returned by some trick.

On the other hand, Win 10 has a huge search field in the taskbar that searches apps, internet and everything else at the same time. I immediately hid it. This was one of the few configurations I did on Win 10 after the installation. The installation was not for myself, so I didn't care to tweak and explore too much.

Dedoimedo has a bunch of detailed reviews of Win 10. Start perhaps here http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/windows-10-preview-build-10041.html


Some of my older games won't play in 8 so I keep 7 installed.

I don't play games much. On the computer I am typing now, I don't even have chess.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ensbb3 on 2015-04-20, 21:49:57
I thought everybody knew that anything is better than win8. This is true of even Vista.

Hey. I bought it, may as well use it. Had I known win10 would go free upgrade I'd of stayed with or just got another copy of win7. Vista's networking can kiss my godforsaken... ... I don't like it. Win8 is as good as seven in that regard and plays most anything newer me and my son try to connect and play. As long as we leave Steam out of this that's true anyway.


I don't play games much. On the computer I am typing now, I don't even have chess.

They can keep your mind sharp. Granted I don't get into mobile games or even console gaming like the boy. (Button pushing idiot work) Chess would be a must have tho, come on. Half of a game of chess can bring you back on focus.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: smallhagrid on 2015-06-04, 16:28:01
OK - this post started me from happy lurker to poster, and I must say=>

Wiser words have not been spoken !!:

For the most part of the population, Windows it's like Churchill words about democracy - the worst form of Operative System, except for all those other ones.

My loyal XP is dying but it managed to overpass Vista and still maintains dignity... it was good enough to kept me apart from Seven, Eight and whatever.

After XP, nothing. I need no computers anymore, android toys will be enough.

But also, I must ask - how is an Android device NOT a computer ??
(Just because most are sort of like multiple amputees - they DO still have a goodly number of the requisite parts...)
Title: could it be - really - do mine old eyes deceive me ?!?
Post by: smallhagrid on 2015-06-04, 16:34:33
BRAVO !!:

2000 was the best of them all, but it's long since gone. XP is being forcefully killed off. I liked XP less than 2000. 7 is reasonable compared to Vista and 8, but pretty much anything else than Vista or 8 is more reasonable...

So long as one is clear that 2000 is NOT 'winme' - I am amazed to see such a posting and I totally agree.

Then came eXPee - and veeester (Me2), then sebben - and ache - and ache2.

My solution has been eXPee in a VM under Ubuntu with LXDE, and even 2000 in a VM if desired - but I have as yet not managed to torment myself into trying to tame sebben down to a nice, classic style so as to be bearable.
I may yet make that attempt, but refuse to hurry into it.

Thanks for making my day with such a wonderful posting !!
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: smallhagrid on 2015-06-04, 16:46:30
Lovely to see such wise folks as yourself here !!:

I've always considered two partitions a must for Windows. The easiest way to reinstall is just to wipe C:\, while D:\ holds all of your essential files and folders. Most Linuxes automatically go for such an arrangement with / and /home, but perhaps ironically they don't seem to get bogged down the way Windows does. (Or did?)

'Bogged down' is far too polite IMO.
It is best called 'winrot' - and I think they designed it in as a 'feature' !!

I always use a minimum of 3 - c for the ween-dooze wreckage; d for apps; e for data - and in recent times f for the portables which have mostly replaced everything I use daily so as to be most recoverable.

By way of comparison - and as wisely said above=>
Linux is more mature and handles such concerns better right from the start - as well as many things which ween-dooze has never been fixed in any manner to handle correctly.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2015-08-24, 20:54:56
New Windows 7/8/8.1 updates spy on you just like Windows 10 (http://www.techworm.net/2015/08/new-windows-788-1-updates-spy-on-you-just-like-windows-10.html)

KB 2952664 triggers daily telemetry run in Windows 7 -- and may be snooping on users (http://www.infoworld.com/article/2911609/operating-systems/kb-2952664-compatibility-update-for-win7-triggers-unexpected-daily-telemetry-run-may-be-snooping.html)
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-08-31, 08:34:46
This blog post tells of a story I'm all too familiar with: Windows can often only be rescued using Linux.

http://flosslinuxblog.blogspot.be/2015/08/rescuing-windows-10-failed-install.html

(Also, having something like a gParted Live USB stick around is kind of a must.)
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2015-08-31, 12:29:34
It was approximately 10 years ago when I first experienced the magics of a Linux Live CD. :)
I was visiting a friend. He looked quite finished. He couldn't boot his WinXP anymore. HD failure. No chance with a recovery CD or with the original OEM WinXP CD. My friend's real problem was not the PC but some data stored on the HD.
I went home took my Linux Live CD (with Kanotix which at that time was among the best in hardware detection) and had luck.
I could boot into Linux and was able to save/burn to CD the data he was worried about. It took less than a half hour. Happy end. :D
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-09-19, 07:28:03
Dedoimedo weighs in on Windows 10, including its update shenenigans.
Quote from: http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/windows-10-upgrade-results.html

Windows Updates

This is a tricky one. Again, the Internet is crying a river about how you cannot really change the Windows Updates settings in the Home edition of Windows 10. Indeed, for the Home edition users, the options are quite limited. You can delay the updates and schedule the restart, but not really use any other sensible option like in other versions of Windows. You don't get the group policy editor in the Home edition, and the registry tweaks won't work.

[...]

Overall, this is immensely retarded. Yes, the majority of people are clueless, and you want them to keep using updates so their systems remain safe and healthy and whatnot. But then, the average user will never bother changing the defaults, so you can simply keep them set as automatic, and let the power users make the necessary adjustments.

What Microsoft has done this way is cause a big inconvenience and a lot of rage with its advanced users community. Because power users don't want their computers rebooting every few days. They actually do SERIOUS WORK and reboots are an unnecessary hassle. Moreover, automatic updates can be dangerous. True, the chances of an updating borking your system is low, but you don't want to be the first one to receive a bad patch and then go about asking for help.

[...]

And so, when you combine the lack of ability to protect your system from accidental damage by updates with your work regime, automatic updates translate into a big digital turd. Which is why, if you want to use Windows 10 Home like a sane person, you will probably want to disable the Windows Update service.

Yup, if you're a power user, and you don't happen to have a Pro edition, then your choice to not have forced updates is to stop and disable the Windows Update service and turn it on when you want the patches installed. If you try to grab updates while the service is off, you'll get an error. Good.

I bet sometime in the future, Microsoft will also lock down the service itself, and you won't have control over it. When this happens, you will need to use firewall rules to stop the system from accessing the update center, or maybe do it on your router. Just unnecessary pain that normal users are not even aware of, and so the only ones suffering and bitching are the techies. Good job, Microsoft. It's like adding airbags to the car roof, on the outside.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2015-09-19, 10:25:01
Quote
Yup, if you're a power user, and you don't happen to have a Pro edition, then your choice to not have forced updates is to stop and disable the Windows Update service and turn it on when you want the patches installed.

AFAIK even the Pro edition allows you only to postpone the updates but not to choose which one to install.
My way or the highway! :)

Quote
I bet sometime in the future, Microsoft will also lock down the service itself, and you won't have control over it. When this happens, you will need to use firewall rules to stop the system...

Not sometime in the future but already. :)
Since among the more than 40 addresses used by Microsoft to phone home, some are hardcoded and thus can't be stopped with the HOSTS-file, so some people are blocking them through the firewall.

Quote
and so the only ones suffering and bitching are the techies.

Techies? Who can force them to use that shit from Microsoft?

Methinks that Microsoft is testing how far it can go with its lemmings and M$ must be pleasantly surprised...
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-09-19, 10:41:55
Methinks that Microsoft is testing how far it can go with its lemmings and M$ must be pleasantly surprised...

Microsoft is not testing, Microsoft is the testing utility. Microsoft, Google, Facebook and many others.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2015-10-15, 12:45:17
Quote from: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2425381/microsoft-is-downloading-windows-10-to-your-machine-just-in-case

Microsoft is downloading Windows 10 to your machine 'just in case'

"The symptoms are repeated failed 'Upgrade to Windows 10' in the WU update history and a huge 3.5GB to 6GB hidden folder labelled '$Windows.~BT'. I thought Microsoft [said] this 'upgrade' was optional. If so, why is it being pushed out to so many computers where it wasn't reserved, and why does it try to install over and over again?

"I know of two instances where people on metered connections went over their data cap for August because of this unwanted download. My own internet (slow DSL) was crawling for a week or so until I discovered this problem. In fact, that's what led me to it. Not only does it download, it tries to install every time the computer is booted."

Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: string on 2015-10-18, 10:46:28
I have a similar problem at the moment. I normally use a desktop at home using W10 upgraded from W7. I have fast internet there but here, where I am now in Mallorca, I don't have plumbed in internet in the apartment we stay in, relying on our neighbours WiFi that they let us use. They have "unlimited" contract but it's not that fast and there is always the fair use criteria to consider so I use it sparingly, not looking at videos and not getting updates or downloads unless I visit my daughter who has even slower internet, but I'm not so embarrassed at using it for an hour or two.

In Mallorca I use an UP net book, running W7, or at least that's  what I want.

But a couple of weeks ago my netbook OS decided all on its own to download W10. Such a process is slow and bandwidth  consuming. In short I have had to stop using the netbook and have to wait until I get home to sort it. It looks like I will have to install W10 and then revert back to W7 to end up where I want to be. So I tried to do that at my daughter's  but the upgrade collapsed after 8 hours due to the low internet speed and I've  given up doing it here.

I would use W10 in order to keep up with the mainstream were it not for this daft updating regime they are imposing.

Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2015-10-18, 11:24:34
Linux will end your Windows frustration.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: string on 2015-10-18, 12:08:44

Linux will end your Windows frustration.

I've  no reason to doubt you on that, but it's probably too late to change, with the investment in knowledge, software, documents etc.

If only RiscOS had continued.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2015-10-18, 15:37:14
In my case, there was a professional need for MS Office, but Windows was such a frustration that I decided to give up both MS Office and Windows. Not regretting it at all.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-10-18, 18:18:05
I actually much prefer to run the likes of MS Office[1] and Adobe Reader[2] in a Windows virtual machine. Such a solution may not work out if you need to run something heavy like Photoshop or Solidworks, but for me it works well. The versions of Windows I miss, insofar as I miss them, are Windows XP and lower. I can't stand the vast majority of the changes in Vista and up. I don't understand those people who disliked Vista and then liked 7. It's the same darned thing.

Anyway, I miss Windows like the plague. When I upgrade my motherboard, my Windows 10 installation will break. Meanwhile, my Linux will boot as if nothing happened.[3] Windows wastes my time. Linux does not. Perhaps Macs wouldn't either.

[1] For Word.
[2] For its more advanced PDF commenting/editing-related capabilities; that is, Evince can't necessarily show all of the comments I get.
[3] Btw, the Windows virtual machine on the Linux host will boot as if nothing ever happened. Running Windows on a VM saves tremendous amounts of frustration.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: string on 2015-10-18, 18:46:28
As a matter of interest, what version of Windows do you use and do you have, potentially, the same update problems and need to do them from a security viewpoint.

I mentioned RiscOS; the last machine I had running that was a Risc PC. I also had a Windows emulation on that, which I thought a perfect compromise between Windows compatibility with Work things and my Hobby fumblings.

You mentioned Word.  Some time ago I bought Windows Office. When I installed W10 on my desktop top, the first time I tried to use that program the W10 system told me that my Word was terribly old and tried to download and install the latest version. As it happened I knew it was earmarked to be a subscription service so did not do it. After all how sophisticated do you have to get to write a letter or use a spreadsheet.

Apple PS? - No I stay away from the navel gazing Apple stuff, excepting this machine which I got courtesy of credit card points.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-10-18, 20:28:23
The man is confused...
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: string on 2015-10-19, 07:29:48

The man is confused...
You ain't  seen nothing yet!
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-10-19, 15:49:13
As a matter of interest, what version of Windows do you use and do you have, potentially, the same update problems and need to do them from a security viewpoint.

I maintain a Windows installation for occasionally playing a game, which I upgraded from 7 to 10 because newer DirectX things (for games) only come to Windows 10. In virtual machines I have XP, 7, and 8. In practice I primarily use 8 because it works best with my UHD ("HiDPI") monitor, and since I only use it for one or two applications I'm not too bothered by its general tablet-loving weirdness. Additionally I have a nostalgic longing for Windows 3.11 and Works 3, but unfortunately I couldn't get it to work.

Note that I haven't bothered to actually install any of these systems, even though I have a variety of valid licenses. They're all available on modern.ie, and thanks to snapshots you can easily keep 'em forever young.

You mentioned Word.  Some time ago I bought Windows Office. When I installed W10 on my desktop top, the first time I tried to use that program the W10 system told me that my Word was terribly old and tried to download and install the latest version. As it happened I knew it was earmarked to be a subscription service so did not do it. After all how sophisticated do you have to get to write a letter or use a spreadsheet.

I used Microsoft Office 365, courtesy of the university, but for some reason it kept bugging me about reactivating it every month or so, so I uninstalled it. I actually much prefer LibreOffice Writer to MS Word, but when compatibility is important that's not necessarily an option.

Apple PS? - No I stay away from the navel gazing Apple stuff, excepting this machine which I got courtesy of credit card points.

I think Macs are overpriced, but they're also pretty decent machines. (NB I mean real Mac OS, not iOS.)
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Belfrager on 2015-10-19, 19:48:56
I actually much prefer LibreOffice Writer to MS Word, but when compatibility is important that's not necessarily an option.

Yes, LibreOffice it's great software with several things actually better than Microsoft's Office.
For home (or a small office) it's my choice.

Haven't tried yet the Linux version that cames with my distribution.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-10-20, 09:03:22
There's no (notable) difference. It might look minutely different.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2015-10-20, 09:43:14
The notable difference between MS Office and Libreoffice is compatibility of the .doc(x) format. Everybody else uses MS Office.

To me the change of interface in MS Office in 00's was another source of frustration. I had just managed to learn Office 2000 properly when the interface was turned upside down. Meanwhile, Open/Libreoffice menus have remained nicely familiar.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2015-10-20, 13:23:31
I meant no notable difference between the Linux and Windows versions of LO. As far as notable differences between Writer and Word go:



Both share the ridiculous concept of saving the zoom level in the document, so that sending documents back and forth between people constantly results in adjusting zoom levels. I suspect this is a Word-imitation gone too far.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-04-01, 10:25:12
In Windows, you can't delete paths that are too long (i.e. more than 260 chars), even though you can accidentally make them. The solution? The 7-Zip Manager!

https://localhost.one/archive/2016/03/30/broekzakmomentje-met-lange-paden-verwijderen-in-windows
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-04-01, 22:54:50
Everything in computers is about controlling people. Linux less than Windows, but just that, a bit less.
The problem is philosophical, not a matter of hardware and/or open/closed electrical circuits.
And I'm using a computer for saying it.
The Times of the Paradox.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-04-02, 06:12:49
While investigating how Windows managed to gobble up 80GB of space, I found a C:\$Windows.~WS directory. It is said to be safe to remove (http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/insider/forum/insider_wintp-insider_install/is-it-safe-to-delete-the-hidden-folder-windowsws/cb24d5c3-e233-45fd-8358-573aed1331d0?auth=1).
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2016-04-02, 10:36:57

Everything in computers is about controlling people. Linux less than Windows, but just that, a bit less.
The problem is philosophical, not a matter of hardware and/or open/closed electrical circuits.

With new technologies it will get only worse. :)
Microphone and camera will be built in into your flat screen. No way to disconnect.
During your online sessions you'll have to behave civilized and a groomed appearance will be mandatory.
For each misdemeanor you'll have to pay penalties according to the new list of penalties for internet users.
E.g.: 50€ for bitching about the USA, 10€ for sitting or lying unshaved in front of your screen or 5€ for each fart during your online session.
BTW, in case you can't pay the penalties you'll be disconnected from the internet and you'll be sent to jail.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2016-04-02, 10:39:13

While investigating how Windows managed to gobble up 80GB of space, I found a C:\$Windows.~WS directory.

It must be a Win10 thingy. Never happened to me with Win7 or earlier versions of Windoze.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-04-02, 12:15:21
It must be a Win10 thingy. Never happened to me with Win7 or earlier versions of Windoze.

It's a temp leftover from the Windows 7 to 10 upgrade.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-04-02, 15:20:49
BTW, in case you can't pay the penalties you'll be disconnected from the internet and you'll be sent to jail.

We were already sent to jail, we're just in the process. Some (many) of us even gladly pays for it.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2016-04-03, 10:25:48

It's a temp leftover from the Windows 7 to 10 upgrade.

I see. I have never done a Windows upgrade myself.
Call me a clean install fetishist. :)  Either I have the install package to install from or good bye.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-04-03, 15:41:58
Never? Hm, weird. An upgraded Windows is quite clean, really. Incidentally, someone made a video (on a real system) of upgrading from Windows 1 all the way to Windows 10.

Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2016-04-03, 22:12:25
Never?

Never. :)


Incidentally, someone made a video (on a real system) of upgrading from Windows 1 all the way to Windows 10.

Neat :)
However I've read in forums many posts from people who have been tricked in by MS into upgrading to Win10 and ended up with a fu*ked up installation.
They asked for help how to revert. For others the upgrade went fine.

- Well, in the first place it makes little sense to install a new OS on old hardware - for me at least.
I usually keep the OS as long as the hardware doesn't become comfortless outdated.
- I want to be able to format and install the OS whenever I want - even so I've done it only a few times during my life, usually after buying a new computer.

In case you are wondering why a fresh install on a new computer? :)
A computer with no OS preinstalled is considerable more expensive. On the other hand you can make a bargain buy with computers with Windoze preinstalled on them.
However such computers have also a lot of crap preinstalled. So instead of wasting my time with cleaning up the crap I choose to do a clean install.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-04-04, 06:18:35
- Well, in the first place it makes little sense to install a new OS on old hardware - for me at least.

What matters is the state of the hardware, not its age. And in any case, you had to upgrade from Windows 3 to Windows 9x to keep up eventually. What surprises me is that you say you've never upgraded a version of Windows, ever. It doesn't surprise me that you haven't upgraded Windows in the past decade or so. I upgraded from Windows XP to Debian because Windows Vista+ is a POS. I've used all of them for extended periods of time, primarily on laptops, so it's not like I say that in ignorance. It's not that it's bad per se (except some of the Windows 8 nonsense), but it's just so inelegant and stifling.

Windows 10 is still a POS, but since I only use the stuff for games (and potentially some light browsing while a game is running or loading or whatever, like right now) I don't care too much. In fact Windows 10 is significantly better than any previous Windows in a rather significant way: I connected my SSD to my new system, figuring I'd have to do either a repair install or a fresh install and instead it just worked (after 10 minutes of installing drivers or whatever). Any actually serious Windows work (i.e. running MS Office) takes place in a VM because you can take snapshots etc. and don't have to worry about Windows bitrot.

- I want to be able to format and install the OS whenever I want - even so I've done it only a few times during my life, usually after buying a new computer.

I fail to see any relationship to upgrading whatsoever. :)

A computer with no OS preinstalled is considerable more expensive. On the other hand you can make a bargain buy with computers with Windoze preinstalled on them.

Depends. My system upgrade (motherboard + CPU + RAM) cost me rather significantly less than the POS "bargain" systems. For a laptop it's true, of course.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2016-04-04, 13:40:22

However I've read in forums many posts from people who have been tricked in by MS into upgrading to Win10 and ended up with a fu*ked up installation.
They asked for help how to revert. For others the upgrade went fine.

From all the specific instances I have seen, problems were to do not with installation per se (which I take to mean some misconfiguration of opsys), but with limited data plans (in which case it's quite criminal of MS to covertly push through an entire OS) or with impossibly old hardware.


- Well, in the first place it makes little sense to install a new OS on old hardware - for me at least.
I usually keep the OS as long as the hardware doesn't become comfortless outdated.

In my case, the typical reason to install a new OS is that the old one has nearly stopped working, but I know that the hardware can still do its work for me with the right opsys. So, a new OS on old hardware makes perfect sense, particularly when I go from Windows to Linux. 


A computer with no OS preinstalled is considerable more expensive. On the other hand you can make a bargain buy with computers with Windoze preinstalled on them.
However such computers have also a lot of crap preinstalled. So instead of wasting my time with cleaning up the crap I choose to do a clean install.

The best laptop in the world right now is Dell XPS 13. Any good bargains on it over there? (It comes with various specs, so those are important, too, along with the price.)
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-04-04, 14:27:54
The best laptop in the world right now is Dell XPS 13. Any good bargains on it over there? (It comes with various specs, so those are important, too, along with the price.)

The #1 place to look is Tweakers.net (http://tweakers.net/pricewatch/zoeken/?keyword=Dell+XPS+13). That thing sounds like something I'd like, but for that price I think I'll wait it out some more with my late '08 (or was it early '09) laptop and '10 netbook (although that one is getting rather slow...).
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2016-04-04, 21:37:20

And in any case, you had to upgrade from Windows 3 to Windows 9x to keep up eventually. What surprises me is that you say you've never upgraded a version of Windows, ever.

No Windows 3. :)
I had absolutely no interst for computers. All my friends were already computer 'experts' at that time.
My first computer was one with no Windows preinstalled. The OEM Win98SE CD was part of the package. You had to install it.
My interest for computers came after I was hit by malware (for the first and last time). This happened probably during the first week of my online debut but it took several weeks till I realized it. I was a bloody noob and this is an understatement. :)
My next computer had W2k on it. I skipped XP which was basically a slightly enhanced W2k and I also skipped Vista which I didn't like.
In the meanwhile my hardware became hopeless outdated. So I did buy a new computer which had Win7 preinstalled on it. That's it.


- I want to be able to format and install the OS whenever I want - even so I've done it only a few times during my life, usually after buying a new computer.

I fail to see any relationship to upgrading whatsoever. :)

I was referring to Mac style upgrades. ;)


My system upgrade (motherboard + CPU + RAM) cost me rather significantly less than the POS "bargain" systems.

During the past 17 years I bought 3 computers. The actual one might serve me well for at least the next 5 years.
The only extra spending during these years was a power supply which I bought for 15€. :)
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-04-05, 06:52:44
During the past 17 years I bought 3 computers. The actual one might serve me well for at least the next 5 years.

My old motherboard+CPU+RAM was from '07, although I used my wife's discarded motherboard+CPU+RAM from '09 for about a year and a half. So yes, I'm definitely on board with at least five years.

The only extra spending during these years was a power supply which I bought for 15€.  :)

I'm not sure if a PSU that cheap can be anything good. Keep in mind that the quality of your PSU is the most important thing for the prolonged health of your components.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2016-04-05, 17:10:38
In mid-90's I was studying in Helsinki University. Finns were pretty computerised by then, only very few could not afford a computer. At the same time, it was not too urgent to buy one's own, because we had free computer halls... Anyway, I saw them using those things in their rooms and I thought I should buy something like that too. Unfortunately computers were far beyond my means at the time, so I bought an electrical typewriter instead.

This trend has continued ever since - I either use free tech (such as other people's leftover computers and free-access wifi spots) or I buy something near-ridiculously antiquated. I begin to understand tech specs only now and I see that the laptop I bought two years ago was not as awesome as I thought. However, it is still perfectly adequate for all the purposes I originally planned for it, and this matters, I guess. It was never meant to have any Windows and it's been perfect like this.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-04-05, 18:22:09
However, it is still perfectly adequate for all the purposes I originally planned for it, and this matters, I guess.

It does, very much indeed. Incidentally, if the laptop has an HDD, space isn't a big concern, and it's easy to replace, a cheap used SSD may well be the best, most noticeable upgrade it'll ever see.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Belfrager on 2016-04-05, 23:17:04
Microsoft uses Windows as a deliberate way to force consumers to buy more powerfull hardware computers in a never stopping way.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-04-06, 06:36:17
Microsoft uses Windows as a deliberate way to force consumers to buy more powerfull hardware computers in a never stopping way.


I believe new versions of Windows are the main reason people buy new machines in the first place. Unfortunately, Windows is by far the worst choice for a desktop OS security and privacy wise (not to mention IMHO Windows 10 is still butt-ugly with a bunch of useless and distracting tiles in the "start" menu, but that's the least of the Windows concerns)

OSX El Capitan is a little like using Gnome (because that DE attempts to copy OSX, of course) but is a much more useful and less annoying experience even if some things are odd such as moving programs from the download folder to the applications ones in order to install them.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-04-06, 07:03:22
if some things are odd such as moving programs from the download folder to the applications ones in order to install them.

I think that actually makes a lot of sense. What doesn't make sense is drag to trash to unmount. At its core, Unity is also OS X imitator.

Incidentally, GNOME Shell is supposed to have matured a bit by now. I haven't yet tried it myself, but just like Windows I know they rectified some idiocy like not having an easy to find shutdown option. Whoever thought computers should only go into standby mode and never off should be fed to the polar bears or something. :right:
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: midnight raccoon on 2016-04-06, 09:50:42
think that actually makes a lot of sense.

I think it was just because I was used to just installing the .deb file from the downloads folder. But since I'm an OSX noob, I didn't know about dragging to the trash to unmount and have been unmounting by clicking the up arrow in Finder. The latest version of Gnome Shell I used was 3.14. It was better, but little things annoyed me about it.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-04-06, 10:14:41
See here about GNOME Shell:

Dedoimedo says GNOME 3 might finally be approaching usability again.

Quote from: http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/fedora-23.html
Fedora 23 Workstation with the Gnome desktop is a very reasonable release. I am surprised first and foremost by the advancement in the Gnome framework. It's usable, and there's no reason to hate it anymore. This shows how objective and cool I am, and that my past resistance was all legit techno babble. When credits are due, I'm a bloody bank.

Indeed, self praise aside, Gnome has reached a point where it can be used. 'Tis a paradox, because it was perfect before being ruined, and now it's approaching the same level of usability it had years ago. But if we put the background story aside, yes, it's okay, and it makes sense on top of Fedora. The distro itself also works well. It's stable, robust, the hardware support is really good, all my peripherals were properly initialized, all the network protocols ate their bits and bytes without hiccups, and with some extra pimpage, you have a pleasant, friendly system that can serve entertainment as well as state-of-the-art functionality.



Fedora 23 comes with GNOME 3.18 (https://help.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/3.18/).

Anyway, I haven't tried it myself.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2016-04-06, 23:06:34

I'm not sure if a PSU that cheap can be anything good.

It wasn't a brand-new PSU. The guy from the workshop whom I knew well didn't want to take any money at all for it.
However, next day after I've replaced the PSU, I brought him a crate of beer - hence the 15€. :)
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Sparta on 2016-05-22, 21:41:33
linux it is just works.

windows is usefull but easily to broken.

upgrading win 7 to win 10,  sounds like a bad idea.

always install it at different partition.

i use win10 to play PES ,  and experiments.

and it doesnt acting at all.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Sparta on 2016-05-22, 21:49:42
last time i bought psu is $9 to replace blowned psu at computer lab.

it is brand new, not second hand.

my friend advice me to just replace the transistor if the coil arent burned.


i just  dont liked to be bothered with soldiering,  etc.
so i just grab a new psu at comp shop.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-05-23, 07:43:26
Just replace the transistor? Easier said than done. First of all, a capacitor is more likely to be broken. If you're lucky it'll be visible on the outside by looking poofy. If you're even luckier you'll be able to still make out what it says on the  side. And you're luckiest if that's actually the only problem.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2016-06-01, 20:06:27
Apparently Samsung hardware does not get along with Windows 10 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05/31/windows_10_samsung_fail/

I have made one Windows 10 install. It was on an HP laptop. No problems have been reported after that.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-06-02, 09:39:00
If what you've got is working perfectly, you have no reason to "upgrade." Microsoft should be ashamed of themselves.

That being said, Samsung still not having working drivers is quite shameful too. I suspect you might be able to find drivers elsewhere even if not on the Samsung site; after all, what are the chances of there being a Samsung-exclusive Wi-Fi card?
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-07-09, 15:45:28
Of course, Windows 7 comes with its own set of problems. Install these updates manually to be able to update your computer... (that's KB3065987 and KB3102810) which itself is necessary to install an apparently too new version of Office/Word...

https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/3frcib/heads_up_kb3050265_fixes_major_memory_leak_in/
http://appuals.com/high-cpu-usage-by-svchost-exe-netsvcs/

Without KB3065987 things go horribly wrong due to lack of memory. Without KB3102810 I let it run for 30 minutes without any success, but it seems to have taken "only" 10-15 mins or so with that update.

For future reference, https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/2999226 (KB2999226) will do for installing Office/Word 2016 all by itself. That's fine, I mainly figured it'd be safer to get it all. But Windows Update didn't install it (nor did I see it in optional updates).

After going through all this, I cloned one of my Windows 7 VMs and upgraded it to Windows 10. Now I've got a well functioning Windows 7 and 10 VM, finally. I couldn't get the Windows 10 VM supplied by Microsoft over at Modern.IE to run quite smoothly no matter what system settings I changed.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2016-07-10, 18:59:58
Crush ransomware (http://fun.drno.de/pics/english/crush_ransomware.jpg)
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-07-11, 07:12:21
Ouch! :lol:
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-09-30, 19:42:37
Supposedly, ridiculously slow Windows updates (not happening even after hours and hours) have finally been solved, provided you install the right fixes: http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/windows-slow-updates-fix-final.html
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Sparta on 2016-10-03, 04:21:49
i dont trust auto -update .

manually update most of time .

to make sure have the previous version, incase latest update are full of crap
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2016-10-03, 08:30:52
Supposedly, ridiculously slow Windows updates (not happening even after hours and hours) have finally been solved
Well, old news from Dedoimedo. :)   At least I can confirm that they are correct.
As for me, Windows 7 updates will end this month. I won't install each time hundreds of MBs in vain.
Starting with Oktober 16 M$ won't allow anymore selective download of updates.
Since W2k I only downloaded security patches and those only selective. Almost all security patches were addressed to InternetExploder (which I don't use) and to their insecure .NET Framework (which was always among the first things I've uninstalled from a fresh Windoze).
These habits served me well for many years and I've never encountered problems with Windoze.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-10-03, 10:46:46
Well, old news from Dedoimedo.  :)
I don't know; I tried to install a number of recommended patches manually a few months back and it didn't help too much.

These habits served me well for many years and I've never encountered problems with Windoze.
True, not allowing automatic updates will serve you well. I've had both Windows 7 and Windows 10 kill themselves automagically.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2016-10-03, 11:36:40
Well, old news from Dedoimedo.  :)
I don't know; I tried to install a number of recommended patches manually a few months back and it didn't help too much.
For sure, everyone (including myself) who didn't install all the shitload of updates M$ was offering, encountered this problem.
However, the solution offered by Dedoimedo now, was already available in August. ;)
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-10-03, 12:13:30
I think he wrote July. :P
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2016-10-03, 13:18:14
I think he wrote July. :P
The rollup package KB3172605 came in July. At that time nobody knew that it was part of the solution - neither did Dedoimedo.
If I recall exactly, it was M$ who came up afterwards with the solution for slow updates - the solution Dedoimedo is presenting September 30, 2016. ;)
So I was able to solve the problem (correct solutions were given on several sites) in August.
BTW, I still have on my HD the install packages (Windows6.1-KB3020369-x64.msu and Windows6.1-KB3172605-x64.msu) which I did download in August and which solved the slow update problem since.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2016-10-13, 16:44:14
The what's new in Windows 10 anniversary update video just told me you can now set reminders from the lockscreen. WTF!? It's the lockscreen. You know, the thing that keeps people from doing stuff on your computer...

Incidentally, apparently Edge has mouse gestures now.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2016-11-25, 17:40:50
Microsoft gives third-parties access to Windows 10 Telemetry data (http://www.ghacks.net/2016/11/23/microsoft-gives-third-parties-access-to-windows-10-telemetry-data/?PageSpeed=noscript)

Microsoft struck a deal with security company FireEye (http://nationalsecuritylawbrief.com/cia-investment-firm-announces-strategic-partnership-with-fireeye-inc-malware-protection/) which gives FireEye access to all Windows 10 Telemetry data.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2017-05-16, 04:55:26
Wasn't this big news last weekend? https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/05/wanna-decryptor-kill-switch-analysis/

What I am failing to notice in all the reporting is the word "Windows". And "Microsoft".[1] Did the ransomware really affect any and all opsyses?

But they are saying "Ukraina" :) http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=161&artikel=6695485
Edit: Yeah, I failed, but that one is actually there.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2017-05-16, 06:55:58
What I am failing to notice in all the reporting is the word "Windows". Did the ransomware really affect any and all opsyses?
You'll have to differentiate.
- Basically one can code malware for any OS. BTW, the first rootkits were written for Linux.
- This one was targeting Windows taking advantage of a zero-day (thanks to the NSA, in fact more than a decade old) security hole (SMB exploit).
Spreading through the network without user interaction was only possible because of the SMB exploit which exploited a Windows hole.

But they are saying "Ukraina" :) http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=161&artikel=6695485
Either Lars Ericsson, Web and IT Manager at Region Dalarna is an idiot or he considers all the readers of his statement to be idiots.
Neither are the "attacks from Ukrainian banks" related to the SMB exploit nor does an originating IP reveal the identity of an attacker.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2017-05-16, 07:12:42
But they are saying "Ukraina" :) http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=161&artikel=6695485
Either Lars Ericsson, Web and IT Manager at Region Dalarna is an idiot or he considers all the readers of his statement to be idiots.
Neither are the "attacks from Ukrainian banks" related to the SMB exploit nor does an originating IP reveal the identity of an attacker.
You are trying your best to leave the impression that IP addresses reveal nothing. I have not seen any expert leave this impression. IP addresses usualy give a strong sense of direction of the attack. Just like wind, even though it doesn't tell you where it originated, it tells you from what direction, in relation to you, it's coming from.

Quote from: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/05/wanna-decryptor-kill-switch-analysis/
Upon running the sample in my analysis environment I instantly noticed it queried an unregistered domain, which I promptly registered.

[...]

Our standard model goes something like this.
  • Look for unregistered or expired C2 domains belonging to active botnets and point it to our sinkhole (a sinkhole is a server designed to capture malicious traffic and prevent control of infected computers by the criminals who infected them).
  • Gather data on the geographical distribution and scale of the infections, including IP addresses, which can be used to notify victims that they're infected and assist law enforcement.
  • Reverse engineer the malware and see if there are any vulnerabilities in the code which would allow us to take over the malware/botnet and prevent the spread or malicious use, via the domain we registered.
They take note of IP addresses and domains because that's probably somehow important. Just a hunch.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2017-05-16, 07:27:43
You are trying your best to leave the impression that IP addresses reveal nothing. I have not seen any expert leave this impression. IP addresses usualy give a strong sense of direction of the attack.
I'm trying my best to make clear that the originating IP of an attack reveals only the source of the last hop.
So while the  originating IP of an attack can be attributed to a bank from the Ukraine, the attack could be performed from anywhere.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2017-05-16, 07:36:44
You are trying your best to leave the impression that IP addresses reveal nothing. I have not seen any expert leave this impression. IP addresses usualy give a strong sense of direction of the attack.
I'm trying my best to make clear that the originating IP of an attack reveals only the source of the last hop.
So while the  originating IP of an attack can be attributed to a bank from the Ukraine, the attack could be performed from anywhere.
This much has been clear all along. Yes, the attack could be from anywhere, but just like the direction from a bank in Ukraine was traced, cannot it be further traced by examining what's been going on in the bank servers?
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2017-05-16, 07:56:54
Yes, the attack could be from anywhere, but just like the direction from a bank in Ukraine was traced, cannot it be further traced by examining what's been going on in the bank servers?
For sure it can. At best you'll end up with another IP which you can't trace any further. :)
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-05-16, 08:08:30
What I am failing to notice in all the reporting is the word "Windows". And "Microsoft".[1] (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=467.msg72507;boardseen#fn1_0) Did the ransomware really affect any and all opsyses?
Didn't really affect MS either as they'd already patched the vulnerability last year iirc.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2017-05-16, 08:47:53
For sure it can. At best you'll end up with another IP which you can't trace any further. :)
That the tracks end without a clear suspect might be a common outcome, but the best-case scenario is still better than that http://list25.com/25-most-notorious-hackers-to-ever-get-caught/

The recommended recipe for success is as follows.
Quote from: http://www.itworld.com/article/2735940/security/how-hackers-get-caught.html
The key to successfully hiding your identity during an attack seems to be making sure you pass through enough interim sites to conceal your point of origin permanently - either because they're in a country not vulnerable to pressure from the FBI, specifically offer to protect users' data by not saving the login or tracking data on their servers for more than a few days, or because they're zombies being remotely controlled by someone else, who makes sure the zombie doesn't keep enough information to point back to a command-and-control site.

Lacking a trustworthy proxy, the best thing to do is to go through so many interim sites and services that the process of tracking you through them all is too time consuming for most security teams.

"Even if hackers redirect through other sites, it's frequently still possible to track an attack back to them," according to Clifford Neuman, director of the USC Center for Computer Systems Security, who was quoted in InfoWorld's recent Stupid hacker tricks: Exploits gone bad article. "You trace it back to one point, then you go through diplomatic channels to get the authorities in the outside country to find and collect the logs. It's a months-long process, but it can be done."
It might be tedious to track down things like this, but if the attacks are serious and recurring enough, the tracking will be done. Just like when a serial killer keeps killing, even a lazy detective will have a gradually better chance of finding him.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2017-05-16, 08:48:16
Didn't really affect MS either as they'd already patched the vulnerability last year iirc.
Not exactly (https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/security/ms17-010.aspx).
Because MS killed security only updates many IT people were reluctant to swallow MS all-in-one shady updates.
The patch for WinXP came out after the break out. Even so WinXP isn't supported officially by MS anymore, many institusions worldwide are still using it - among them Britain's nuke subs (https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/2017/05/prudent-ask-britains-nuke-subs-also-hit-ransomware/).
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2017-05-16, 08:56:36
The recommended recipe for success is as follows.
Quote from: http://www.itworld.com/article/2735940/security/how-hackers-get-caught.html
The above article is reasonable.
However, it hardly can apply to state sponsored attacks.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-05-16, 10:27:20
Because MS killed security only updates many IT people were reluctant to swallow MS all-in-one shady updates.
There's a reason Debian has been my primary OS since 2011 and it's not that it's gratis. (Heck, I still have Windows on both my desktop and my laptop. Only the old netbook is Xubuntu-only.)

The update process is so much more streamlined in most Linux distros. By and large only kernel upgrades require restarting. Most updates can just run in the background daily and e-mail you a report about it.

(Okay, that's not the reason, but the nicer update process is certainly a big boon.)

But yeah, I can very much see where people are coming from with the "update to Windows 10" debacle. And it wasn't just a one-time fluke, they kept sneaking the damned Windows 10 update nonsense.

On a related note, after my Windows installed the "Creator's Update" the other day it booted to Edge telling me to make it the default browser. Have they learned nothing?
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2017-05-16, 11:59:56
Since Win2K I did only install security related updates on Windows.
Even those security updates were selective. As an example - among the first things I've done with a new computer was a tailored fresh install.
No .NET framework and as such no security updates for that risky environment.
Over 90% of Windows' security updates were/are addressed for Internet Explorer/Edge and the .NET framework.
On Win7 I've also disabled WindowsDefender which I had no use for and as such skipped the definition updates as well.
I didn't have to install many updates over the years and never had problems with the OS.
As of the "update to Windows 10" debacle, it didn't affected me and prooved me right for the way I did updates all over the years.

Speaking of Linux
Do all popular distros offer security updates?
Are you offered to review the security updates and select which one to install?
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2017-05-16, 12:12:10
Speaking of Linux
Do all popular distros offer security updates?
Are you offered to review the security updates and select which one to install?
Different Linuxes do it differently. Popular ones resemble Windows in that even if you can take a look at the code of every single patch (at Github or the like) it may be difficult to bypass it.

The most relevant patches we are talking about concern the kernel. If you are proficient enough to tailor the kernel, you can bypass all updates for it while still receiving all other updates. I'm a noob and I don't care for that. When I run into too many issues, I simply reinstall. But my experience on Linux has been generally solid and pleasant.

The worst problem I've had with Linux was buying a computer with AMD Phenom processor which seems to be specifically designed to seriously hickup with Linux. Reinstallation does not help there. Selling it off helps.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2017-05-16, 12:41:58
If I understand you correctly all security updates concerning the OS are kernel patches.
Security updates for third party software like Java, .NET, browser, ..., are separate update packages/patches.

Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2017-05-16, 14:29:03
No. The main point is: It's kernel updates versus everything else. It's just that kernel updates for a single point version tend to be security updates and minor bugfixes only. If you want a kernel feature update, you generally upgrade to a different kernel version number (upgrade as distinguished from update). Linux makes it easy to keep several kernel versions on board and you can switch them by rebooting.

If I remember right, the last time I looked at a *Buntu, there were three levels of updates, one level for kernel (labelled Security, the way you like, but it was really more like for kernel only) and you could refuse that level.

Browsers and such also receive security updates, obviously, but they are not distinguished from ordinary app updates in any way. Generally you can click around and make selections in the thing called updates notifier, but there are a lot of interdependencies within Linux, so in reality you cannot tailor things too much there.

Linuxes fall roughly into two classes. In the more popular class it's generally assumed/recommended that you update everything. In those distros (including Ubuntoids) you don't go to the Firefox website to update your Firefox. You wait for the Firefox updates in the distro repository[1] and you can only update when the volunteers who work for the distro have completed administering all the packages in the repository so users can update their computers from there. You can refuse updates for some select packages/apps, but you must know what you are doing.

There's the thing called package manager (related to, but distinct from updates notifier) that is specific to each distro. You will need to learn to know the package manager for your distro. When things break and the package manager is a good one and you know it well enough, you can revert updates, change labels/tags on the packages etc. to fix things. When you end up not liking a distro and you choose another, you must learn to know the other package manager.

Generally it's the easiest and safest to refuse kernel updates. Other packages/apps tend to have more interdependencies that can break.

Then there's the following important catch. You may refuse an update, either for a select package or for the entire system. Then comes the next update cycle and you will receive the previous updates along with it anyway. It's just the way Linux generally works. It cannot work anyother way, because interdependencies are many and it takes a lot of work to keep a distro consistent. To completely bypass this, there's another class of Linuxes, the hypernerdy old-school tinkerer class.

In that other class of Linuxes, e.g. Slackware, perhaps even better - BSD, the distro repository (the server that hosts the updates for the distro) hosts just the bare essentials, because it's generally assumed that people update the apps/packages locally and individually. In this class, you see an update for Firefox on the internet, just like on Windows. Then you go download the Linux version for Firefox and compile it locally. Compile = build an installable package. It's a good skill because you can modify it to your heart's content. Then install it. If a dependency breaks, you hunt for an update for the dependent package too or you figure out the changed dependency requirements and recompile things from source, applying the changed requirements. In a similar way you can compile and recompile the kernel, applying or removing whatever parts you want/need.

In small ways, we can/must practise all this on the more popular Linuxes also, whenever we want to install something that is not hosted in the repository or when we want (and know how) to modify the kernel.
Repository is the server that hosts updates for the distro. It's just like Microsoft hosts Windows updates, but the difference is that Microsoft does not host updates for desktop apps like Firefox or Libreoffice, whereas Linux hosts updates for everything from kernel through system libraries up to desktop apps and it's recommended to update everything all at once, as much as is hosted and administered in the repository.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-05-16, 15:14:02
If I understand you correctly all security updates concerning the OS are kernel patches.
Security updates for third party software like Java, .NET, browser, ..., are separate update packages/patches.
No, but the kernel is close to the only thing that necessitates a system restart. The other stuff is more like do you use Debian stable or Ubuntu LTS (only security updates for several years) or do you use a rolling distro where these things are hard to separate.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2017-05-16, 16:45:50
Hmm, stable and rolling releases. It gets complicated for a noob. :)
Let's take a stable release with only security updates and no new features for several years.
I assume that those security updates apply to both, the OS and third party software bundled with it. Correct?
But I'm afraid that things can get even more complicated for a noob.
What happens if (I assume it's possible) you uninstall some third party software of the bundle or replace it with other ones?
Does the OS detect if the security updates don't match the modified bundle?

BTW, as far as I can see Debian has a vast number of software packages as options to choose from.
Besides, there is also Wine.

Edit:
Sorry Ersi, I've overlooked your post which already answers some of my questions. Thanks!

As far as I can see it, there is no silver bullet.
However one thing is for sure. Win7 is the last OS from MS I'm using on my home computer.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-05-16, 16:59:28
I assume that those security updates apply to both, the OS and third party software bundled with it. Correct?
Yes. Although in a system like Debian almost everything but the package management system is "third-party" in the way you seem to be using it, the OS itself (i.e., GNU+Linux) included. From a distro-perspective it would generally make more sense to use third-party to refer to software not found in the official repositories.

What happens if (I assume it's possible) you uninstall some third party software of the bundle or replace it with other ones?
Does the OS detect if the security updates don't match the modified bundle?
You can pin packages, but generally the only reason to install a different version of a package is to have it at a higher version than what's currently available in the repo. So the official repo version overwriting it if and when it's updated is normally exactly what you'd want to happen.

Third-party software in general (such as Opera or Vivaldi) often maintains its own repos that integrate with the system.

Besides, there is also Wine.
In Wine you'd have to update manually or use whichever auto-updater is included in a Windows application. Expecting the system to take care of that would be highly irrational. :P (Of course the system does update Wine itself.)
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2017-05-16, 17:17:43
In Wine you'd have to update manually or use whichever auto-updater is included in a Windows application. Expecting the system to take care of that would be highly irrational. :P
As noob as I am I didn't expect that. :)
I only mentioned Wine in regard of some Windows software one might be used to and there is no linux port for it. :)
Title: BSD is not Linux exactly
Post by: Barulheira on 2017-05-16, 17:28:51
Just to keep it clear, "BSD" is not a Linux distro. It is another operating system - or better, another class of operating systems descendant from the old Unix - or something like that. :)
Title: Re: BSD is not Linux exactly
Post by: ersi on 2017-05-16, 17:56:13
You can pin packages...
This is a gross technical term. You "pin" only in the graphical package manager. It means "to exclude from the common update cycle".

On my distro, the graphical package manager (even though pretty and popular and eagerly developed) is not quite safe. It happens often enough when the update notification explicitly recommends command-line.

Third-party software in general (such as Opera or Vivaldi) often maintains its own repos that integrate with the system.
True mostly for Debian and Ubuntoids. There are Linux-friendly software producers, such as Vivaldi etc. that normally produce a Debian and Fedora package, sometimes also OpenSUSE and more. But if you have a different distro, you can't expect the Debian/buntu package to work just so. (Yup, a "Linux" package is guaranteed to work only on a single select distro. This is an unintended consequence of separate package management systems for every distro. A distro normally has its own separate repositories which in turn implies a separate package management system which in turn has brought about incompatibility of package formats across Linux distros.)

If the thing is not in the repository, you must grab the source or tarball and compile locally. Which is why I use Manjaro/Arch whose nicety is, on top of the official repository, an extraordinarily large bunch of user-built software packages and compiler scripts that are conveniently shared.

Just to keep it clear, "BSD" is not a Linux distro. It is another operating system - or better, another class of operating systems descendant from the old Unix - or something like that. :)
This is another gross technicality. Nothing gets clearer this way.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2017-05-16, 22:01:21
This is a gross technical term. You "pin" only in the graphical package manager. It means "to exclude from the common update cycle".
Exclude is a much "grosser" word than pin. If you pin something it stays put until you unpin it. Same as pinned tabs. Exclude is an ugly, difficult Latinate word. :p
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: krake on 2017-05-18, 17:22:49
Something I forgot to mention and might be of interest for someone.
Less known is the MUC (https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.com/) (MicrosoftUpdateCatalog) wherefrom there is still possible to downlad security-only updates. It's not nearly as convenient as MS updates used to be in the past but it's still a poor option of last resort.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Belfrager on 2017-05-18, 23:06:09
as convenient as MS updates
MS updates are everything but convenient.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-09, 06:23:42
Quote from: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/05/notepad-gets-a-major-upgrade-now-does-unix-line-endings/
Notepad gets a major upgrade, now does Unix line endings

Notepad, being a Windows application, has always demanded the CRLF pair. When faced with Unix files--quite common for source code and similar things--it sees the bare-naked LFs and prints them as black squares. Because it doesn't start a new line when faced with a naked LF, it shows the entire contents of the file as a single lengthy line, which makes it hard to read, much less edit.

But in the next update to Windows (likely to arrive in October or thereabouts), Notepad will handle Unix and classic MacOS line endings in addition to the Windows kind. This will make the editor much more useful than it currently is.
If I am reading right, Unix-like behaviour will become the default.

This particular detail never bothered me much (and it bothers me even less now when I am not on Windows), because it was possible to choose upon saving whether it will be ANSI or UNIX. What bothered me was that the setting was not persistent, so I had to use alternatives like Notepad++.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-05-09, 06:39:14
MS updates are everything but convenient.
Haha, nice selective quoting. :P

This particular detail never bothered me much
Every other program auto-detects and correctly displays files regardless of line endings. It's always been pretty annoying to me.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2018-05-09, 06:53:07
This particular detail never bothered me much
Every other program auto-detects and correctly displays files regardless of line endings. It's always been pretty annoying to me.
That's right. I could be misassessing my level of annoyance due to my current distance from Windows. There were so many other things that were far more annoying in Windows. And, when on Windows, I gave Notepad++ permission over all possible text files even for quick-viewing, so I did not run too much into Windows Notepad.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2018-05-09, 08:39:28
The Xfce notepad app, Mousepad, is effectively what a basic app like that is supposed to look like.

Notepad has actually received many improvements over the years, but the weird thing is that edit (MS-DOS Editor) was always a lot more like Mousepad. The MS-DOS Editor even received support for Unix line endings in the version shipped with Windows 95! (Albeit in the form of automatically converting them rather than just keeping them whichever way they happen to be.)

I don't think Notepad has changed (on the surface) since XP, and in basic look and feel it's been the same since Windows 3. That's not necessarily a bad thing, of course. They paid attention to Paint and now look what happened to it.[1]
You're supposed to use something called Paint 3D instead. Is it just me or does a name like that scream early to mid '90s? Coming soon, Notepad 3D...
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Barulheira on 2018-05-09, 12:08:56
It has bothering me much, when accessing somebody else's Windows console and having to do something trivial such as quickly editing a small text file of sorts (and then trying to search for an installed alternative text editor).
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2020-03-25, 10:29:57
Second work week remotely. Windows sucks.

Lots of our tasks, appointments, online (chat and video) sessions, and files are force-directed to Microsoft Teams, which is atrocious at managing all that. There is a huge search hole in Teams, but it is useless. Teams (same as modern Office and many other apps) does not respect the Windows theming. There is no tabbing, no tiling, and no detach in Teams, so you can have just one thing open at a time.

And we cannot install our own apps. We cannot install Vivaldi as a browser that is actually suitable for multi-tasking. I hope this Windows thing catches corona and dies soon.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2020-03-25, 10:45:40
The weird thing is that Outlook is better at a lot of that stuff and has been since time immemorial (mid-'90s).

Microsoft Lync was fine for chat/call/video, although no more than that. But was it worse than Teams... disturbingly, probably not.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2020-03-25, 12:04:51
And the permissions and privileges hierarchy is all messed up. You never know when you change a thing in Teams, if it changes just for you or for everyone. You never know that the way something displays for you displays the same way for others, or differently, how differently, to whom and why. A total disaster.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2020-03-25, 14:08:37
Same in Office 365. Filters are an integral part of using Excel, and the whole point of 365 is collaboration, right? But applying a filter applies it for everyone. It's useless.

https://excel.uservoice.com/forums/304921-excel-for-windows-desktop-application/suggestions/13151544-enable-user-filter-views

I appreciate that it must be astonishingly difficult to implement. People first publicly noticed at least 5 years ago after all, but the simple fact is that a traditional network drive with user edit lockout works a million times better and has worked that way just fine since presumably at least the mid-'90s. I would expect it hasn't fundamentally changed from a user perspective since MS Office 3 or 4, albeit possibly 95, 97 or potentially even as late as 2000.

Tbh I mostly prefer LibreOffice over MS Office, or at least Writer over Word and possibly Calc over Excel. I've never really played with Publisher for example.

Unlike Writer I don't think Calc is really any better, probably not really any worse either, but Excel doesn't show you what you've selected in inactive windows. It's incredibly annoying. I have no idea what they were thinking. Also Excel has or had this weird program-wide undo instead of document-based undo.

Incidentally, if you use the ribbon in LibreOffice then Alt+letter doesn't work to activate a tab like in MS Office. So they both have their ups & downs. The MS Office ribbon has grown on me somewhat after using it for a decade, although I still think traditional menus are easier to find your way around. In any case Microsoft made very sure that other than visually, ribbons behave exactly the same as menus from a keyboard perspective. This is a lesson that no one else seems to have learned. Rather than contorting your fingers weirdly, you do something like Alt+o, d for "clear direct formatting". This automatically works for every menu entry, so if you use a function a lot you don't have to make up custom keybinds or whatever.

LibreOffice's experimental ribbon ("tabbed") doesn't work that way, unfortunately. It does underline letters though, so I guess it's planned.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2020-03-26, 06:47:17
The weird thing is that Outlook is better at a lot of that stuff and has been since time immemorial (mid-'90s).
Yes. The funny thing with a lot being pushed into the bad interface of Teams is that emails are still in Outlook and I have to keep both Outlook and Teams open anyway. Why didn't they extend Outlook with chat, video, file management, etc. instead? And arm Outlook with more tabbing and detaching? And, if they really so badly want Teams, rename Outlook to Teams!

In the current Teams there isn't even a proper fullscreen (for anything except video)! There is only something like fill-the-window, which would be great if it were accompanied with vanish-the-interface, but no, Microsoft just can't give people what people really need. Not even when the people are corporations that pay them by the millions.

Same in Office 365... the whole point of 365 is collaboration, right?
Well, not exactly the same issues, but different equally frustrating issues. The point of Office used to be: View and edit docs. It used to be possible to open as many of them as the computer resources allowed, a window per document.

Now with 365, the thing struggles opening a new document when there is already a document open. With Excel in particular it seems to want to close the previous document when you want to open the next one and throws up an error/dialogue to save or delete the previous one. Wtf is that? I am not allowed to view two documents side by side?

You may not have encountered the same exact glitches. Much of my frustration may be due to the overly protected and locked down, "secure" beyond stupidity administratively controlled work environment settings. This adds a whole new layer of complications and Windows is just not handling complications well.

I miss Unix very much, my first work environment back when I started university. We got an A4 with login and the initial password and a few other commands to type, for email, word processing and printing. The instructions on the single A4 worked as promised, without any glitches or hickups. Forever. Never a need to google stuff to solve problems. Problems did not exist.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2020-03-26, 08:23:11
Now with 365, the thing struggles opening a new document when there is already a document open.
I may have been slightly confusing -- well not me really, but Microsoft. There's 365 the online interface and the 365 the subscription Office. The latter is pretty much the same as it always was afaict. It's just Office 2019[1] but you have to pay up every year.
Which I can't meaningfully distinguish from Office 2007. But that's probably a good thing.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2020-03-26, 18:47:41
There's 365 the online interface and the 365 the subscription Office. The latter is pretty much the same as it always was afaict. It's just Office 2019[1] (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=467.msg83734;topicseen#fn1_0) but you have to pay up every year.
Are differences between the 365 web interface and Google Docs serious enough so that it is worth it lean towards 365 and even pay for it? I have not tried Google Docs at all and I use Office 365 the subscription apps only under existential threat.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2020-03-26, 21:20:03
Google Docs Spreadsheets doesn't have the Excel defect I mentioned, so it may be the opposite. Practically speaking they're all junk in my experience, but good enough for basic simple stuff. I doubt Google Docs is better than LibreOffice at opening MS Office documents, possibly worse.

That's something Office 365 online Word probably does just fine. And it's like Office light on every OS with a modern browser.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2020-03-27, 05:56:02
Is the full hardcore desktop version of MS Office still around? If not, then it is completely pointless to stick to any MS-branded paid subscription services that are just poor substitutes. It makes more sense to use poor substitutes that we don't have to pay for.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2020-03-27, 07:36:31
Like I said, Office 2019. :) You can't get it any cheaper than ~60-100 as a used key from the looks of it, so I don't really see any reason to pay the premium over less than 20 for Office 2016. Which is less than two months of Office 365. :lol:
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Barulheira on 2020-03-27, 14:42:05
When I needed MS Word, I installed Word 97 in FreeBSD on Wine. Works like a charm. Fully compatible with current Office formats.
My wife used it to publish her post-graduation work.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2020-03-27, 15:32:56
Was track changes already properly developed back then? I think these days 2007 or higher is kind of required due to DOCX. I bought a used Office 2016 Pro Plus key 'cause everyone keeps sending me these Office documents and I lost access to Office 365. You can also get Office 2010 and 2013 for about €20 but I'm not aware of any concrete advantages to that. Actually it's more like €20 for 2016 and €25 for 2010 and 2013.

Practically speaking you can get by just fine with WordPerfect 5 or MS Works 2, arguably a lot better than with GSuite/Office 365 in your browser. The only problem is that Office 2000 and higher can't read old MS Works files.

MS Office activation is really obnoxious. Only one copy. Well, maybe it works great for most people but for me I decided to put it on real Windows 10 on my desktop, which is sufficient but limiting. It takes a special reboot to use Office. But for myself I just use LibreOffice.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Barulheira on 2020-03-27, 18:06:52
Was track changes already properly developed back then?
I think it was - although I seldom needed it, if at all back then.
I can open DOCX pretty well with MS Word Viewer in Wine, with proper - official - filter formats added. If I needed to edit something with Word, I would use Word 97 (yes, it opens and edits DOCX), but I uninstalled it because of lack of use.
For my editing needs, I use Markdown. If I have to publish something, I export it to PDF, and that's all.
Let's say word processing is not one of my main activities nowadays.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2020-03-27, 20:00:45
For my editing needs, I use Markdown. If I have to publish something, I export it to PDF, and that's all.
Markdown in which editor? Or is there an editor called Markdown?
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2020-03-27, 20:23:14
Word 97 (yes, it opens and edits DOCX)
Wow, really? Good on Microsoft. I know they released plugins for older versions of Office but I didn't realize they went back a full decade. And that right there is why Microsoft is a much less annoying evil than Google.

Markdown in which editor? Or is there an editor called Markdown?
I tend to use Geany for my Markdown, which is my preferred format (https://fransdejonge.com/2013/11/pandoc-markdown-over-straight-latex/). In practice as soon as someone else is involved it's easier to get started in Zim or LibreOffice and possibly switch to DOCX.

Some things that I want to look nice I do straight in LaTeX without the Markdown step. It's slightly more annoying to edit, but otherwise it's just a useless time wasting step. LyX can also be a nice option.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Barulheira on 2020-03-27, 21:24:57
Markdown in which editor? Or is there an editor called Markdown?
Markdown is a formatting standard for plain text files. Any plain text editor can do it. Such a document can be viewed in plain text as is, or nicely rendered with structured formatting (such as styled HTML). Hence, a text editor with quick preview is preferred.
As I am a Java developer, I'm using NetBeans IDE for Markdown editing. But it could be anything else.
In Chrome-like browsers, there are extensions available which render Markdown files as nice formatted documents, and the browser itself is able to export them to PDF. That's OK for me. No Microsoft software in the way.  :happy:
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2020-03-28, 06:40:38
As I am a Java developer, I'm using NetBeans IDE for Markdown editing. But it could be anything else.
How does NetBeans compare with Eclipse? Earlier I have heard that Eclipse should be good for Java developers.

But I do not like Java. I hate most things that are obviously developed with Java or that require Java plugins, such as my current main tool/intra-site/database that I am forced to use at work. There are two colleagues at work who are trying to learn Java and become developers alongside with the current job.

I hate Chrome so passionately that I do not use it at home. I use Chromium instead, with minimal changes in settings, and I only launch it to show things to others, not for my own use. At work I am forced to use Chrome, but there we are prevented from installing any extensions anyway. It's sad that Chrome is now the de facto web standard, which IE used to be, so that I occasionally need to change the identifier in my other browsers to Chrome.

For a while I tried to master Markdown markup language. I think the idea is excellent and Pandoc is the best implementation with possibly all the formatting goodies and finesses one might need in life. But about the turn of the year I veered towards Emacs Org instead, which I have found equally excellent. Emacs Org also comes with sufficient formatting goodies inbuilt in Emacs, such as conversion to HTML and PDF.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Belfrager on 2020-03-28, 07:16:21
I hate most things [...]
You could just stop there, all been said.  :lol:

I went to look to what that Markdown thing is, interesting  but I couldn't see nothing with the Notepad editor. So I downloaded a top level editor, Brackets (http://brackets.io).

What a confusion. I only have the patience for these things because I'm prisoner at home just like most of Europeans.

Another thing, for the first time I'm using Window 10 ( I had the 7). Surprisingly, I like it.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2020-03-28, 07:48:03
In part that's because in the old days, what we have now would be called Windows 10 Service Pack 2 or 3. Now it's called Windows 10 build 1909. But it's still way worse than Windows 7 because they #$% up a lot of stuff for no reason that they're still slowly rebuilding.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2020-03-28, 07:58:00
I went to look to what that Markdown thing is, interesting  but I couldn't see nothing with the Notepad editor. So I downloaded a top level editor, Brackets (http://brackets.io/).
Do you use Brackets for syntax highlighting? I think Notepad++ has syntax highlighting for Markdown files (.md). Notepad++ is overall the best text editor on Windows (after hours of tweaking and theming).

What I still miss is an editor with a BBCode highlight, the kind of code written for forum posts like this one. BBCode should be childishly simple to highlight, but somehow I have not noticed anyone doing it. For a while I tried to create a highlight scheme myself, but I learned that I am an absolute failure at regexing stuff.

In part that's because in the old days, what we have now would be called Windows 10 Service Pack 2 or 3. Now it's called Windows 10 build 1909. But it's still way worse than Windows 7 because they #$% up a lot of stuff for no reason that they're still slowly rebuilding.
I think the rolling release model is a good idea - but for Linux, not for Windows. For Windows, it is a good idea to get rid of it as completely as possible.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2020-03-28, 08:19:25
It's just half-yearly updates, I wouldn't call that rolling release. I'm not sure how annoying it is or isn't though.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2020-03-28, 08:40:10
But isn't it so that you do not have to pay for new Windows versions anymore, as there are only updates, no new major releases?

By the way guys, I wrote an Emacs Org Lightning Intro (https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=868.msg83754#msg83754) for you.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2020-03-28, 08:52:03
Yeah, a worrisome development. I'd rather pay for a new Windows every 5-10 years, because what exactly are they making money from then? On the other hand, if you buy a new laptop or something, you do pay for that. Building your own PC is niche.

Supposedly the PC market is/was "declining rapidly." I find that questionable, but of course back in 2000 our computer from '96 was hopelessly outdated and right now my computer from 2014/2015 may not be top of the line but it's hopefully years from needing replacement.[1] Plus that computer from '96 was literally our first.

A market that's "mature" or whatever you want to call it isn't "declining." It just isn't the big new thing.
But I did get a new GPU a couple of years ago, and I've bought probably two SSDs to upgrade my storage in the meantime.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Barulheira on 2020-03-28, 20:11:51
How does NetBeans compare with Eclipse? Earlier I have heard that Eclipse should be good for Java developers.
Things have changed a bit. As I'm working with Maven, NetBeans is so much easier than Eclipse. But Intellij IDEA has catched up being the preferred IDE for many. I just prefer NetBeans because I'm used to it and it does what I need.

But I do not like Java.
That's OK. It's annoying to be required to use Java if you are not working with Java.

I use Chromium instead
I use Iridium.
Notepad++ is overall the best text editor
Period. :)
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2020-03-30, 20:19:38
Microsoft renaming Office 365 to Microsoft 365, bringing Teams to everyone

Quote from: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/microsoft-365-teams-consumers-160745338.html
Starting April 21, Office 365 will be called Microsoft 365, a move that illustrates the company's desire to shed the stuffy image of the Office branding, and position it as a people first suite of apps.
Now I just hate it forever.
Title: Leap years
Post by: Barulheira on 2020-03-30, 20:22:54
365? And what about leap years?
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2020-03-31, 06:10:03
365? And what about leap years?
Ok, I can stop hating for a day every fourth year or so. It's doable.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Frenzie on 2020-03-31, 08:50:07
The stuffy image of the Office branding? Office means pretty decent products that do arguably stuffy things well. Calling it 365 won't make those stuffy tasks any less stuffy... I predict that in a decade we'll see them moving away from the stuffy 365 branding then.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Belfrager on 2020-03-31, 10:00:28
They change from Office to 365 because they want to dominate not only the so called productive areas of people's life but people's entire life as well. All the days of the year, always, forever and ever.
They don't even try to hide it anymore.

Even so, I distrust Microsoft a little bit less than I distrust Google.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: ersi on 2020-03-31, 16:59:53
Back to school.
Quote from: Assignment Requirements
Assignments must be submitted in Microsoft Word format as a single document. You should include your user ID number and jurisdiction in the header of your assignment. We also recommend:

- a cover page that includes your ID number, submission date and the course title (do not include your name)
- a contents page - optional, but gives a professional finish to your assignment
- font size 11 or 12 in a clear typeface such as Calibri, Ariel, Times New Roman
- leave 1.5-2 line spacing
- use sub-headings to clearly identify what you are discussing
I've got work to do and I hate it, because they want MS Word.
Title: Re: Windows Frustration Thread
Post by: Barulheira on 2020-04-01, 01:24:28
That's why I keep a Word 97 installer at hand, if required.
(What's wrong with PDF, after all?)