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Topic: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.  (Read 21574 times)

  • jseaton2311
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Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Olympic gold medalists Bruce Jenner was born with a sexual identity disorder that science has identified, religion has a problem with that--based on what?   What is the morality/ethics of religion based on in the modern world? 

What if Caitlyn Jenner were to back a certain US president in the upcoming elections?  Would it be ethical for her to speak up today and influence something so important to this country and the world?  Is Bill Mayers mockery of Caitlyn that she is not a 'Rosa Parks' funny--or more idiotic bigotry and misunderstanding? 
James J

  • ersi
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Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #1

Olympic gold medalists Bruce Jenner was born with a sexual identity disorder that science has identified, religion has a problem with that--based on what?   What is the morality/ethics of religion based on in the modern world? 

In what sense does "religion" have a problem with that?

But, granting for the sake of the argument that "religion" has a problem with that, then what if it's on the same basis as the medical science? Don't doctors have a problem with disorders and such?

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #2
"[He] was born with a sexual identity disorder that science has identified" and was later bullied out of...
If you're not aware of it, Jenner is going to be a high-profile poster "child" (he's 65, you know...) in the campaign to -- Jeeze, what should it be called?
I'd most likely term it the rush to hedonism. A philosophy of great antiquity, and quite dubious value. But it does comport with materialism quite well! :(
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #3
I hope he supports Jeb Bush!

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #4
What is the morality/ethics of religion based on in the modern world?

What are they based at any time in history? Ethics and morality aren't scientific constructs, and they differ culturally by region and over time. In Japan, where Western religious influence is far weaker than in Brazil, the reason for discomfort with the LGBT community has less to do with religion than social reasons. Frankly, I don't know what "social reasons" means, but I can't come up with anything that fits better.

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India's Supreme Court reinstated the colonial-era law making homosexuality a crime. The law calls for a ten year prison sentence for "whoever voluntarily has carnal intercourse against the order of nature with any man, woman or animal."

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The ancient city of Palmyra is a Syrian archaeological treasure and a UNESCO World Heritage Site. Some 2000 years ago, it was one of the most important cultural centres in the world. Now it's controlled by ISIS fighters, who have threatened to destroy it as part of their campaign against religious idolatry.


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(In Japan) Homosexuality is frequently kept silent. There is still no religious basis for discrimination, but gay people struggle to face Japan's strict family and gender roles. Though crime is low, LGBT have been harassed or even attacked because of their identities.


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Brazil's lawmakers on Wednesday killed a draft bill that would have prohibited discrimination or inciting violence on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity.

The vote on the Senate's floor rejected both the draft bill and excluded the concepts of sexual orientation and gender identity from a review of Brazil's penal code.Brazil's LGBT activists had hoped that if the bill was defeated it could be incorporated into the country's penal code reform.

But the country's powerful evangelical lobby blocked the effort with an amendment deleting mentions of sexual orientation and gender identity, which they claimed are neither firm nor stable concepts in legislative context.


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(H)omosexual relationships between men in Egypt were not celebrated as they were in Rome and Greece, given that fertility was a big part of Egyptian magic and life. Yet homosexual acts themselves weren't a moral outrage like they are in parts of today's world.


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For centuries, Afghan men have taken boys, roughly 9 to 15 years old, as lovers. Some research suggests that half the Pashtun tribal members in Kandahar and other southern towns are bacha baz, the term for an older man with a boy lover. Literally it means "boy player." The men like to boast about it.


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The ancient city of Palmyra is a Syrian archaeological treasure and a UNESCO World Heritage Site. Some 2000 years ago, it was one of the most important cultural centres in the world. Now it's controlled by ISIS fighters, who have threatened to destroy it as part of their campaign against religious idolatry.

Attaboy ISIS!
  • Last Edit: 2015-06-06, 13:54:36 by Jimbro3738

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #5
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Scientism appears at its most desperate in matters of evolution, where things clearly explicable in physical terms (astronomy, electronics, combustion) bump up against things not nearly so explicable (life, consciousness, motivations).  Scientism always finds a way, however strained, to avoid the ravages of doubt. Conceding or even considering anything outside of that small scientific box would open up a Whole Lot of Doubt.

Consider Cochran's Virus. Evolutionary theory of course says that traits that make for successful reproduction will flourish in a population. This makes sense and can be observed in many things. It fails badly in the case of homosexual men. As these produce no or few children, the selective pressure to eliminate them from the population would seem to be great. Yet they are not eliminated. Scientism cannot say that here perhaps is something not explained by the theory. That would shake the whole edifice. How does it manage this difficulty?

Desperately. The biologist Greg Cochran says that homosexuality is a disease caused by a virus. Which virus is that? We don't know because it has not been discovered. What is the evidence for it? Why, homosexuality. Round and round....
(source)

What is the morality/ethics of religion based on in the modern world?

What are they based at any time in history? Ethics and morality aren't scientific constructs, and they differ culturally by region and over time.

And, as Razib Khan reiterated recently, "Because of the nature of the academy outside of religious colleges there is often silence from this minority [religious scientists...] lest they be pigeon-holed as out of step with the social culture of science. That's human nature. And scientists can't escape that, whether they are in the majority, or the minority. For all the talk of logic and empiricism, scientists are all too human in their basic wiring."

Wasn't Science supposed to investigate "the basic wiring"? :) So, what went wrong?

It seems that science has the most difficulty coping, in this case.
  • Last Edit: 2015-06-07, 02:36:11 by OakdaleFTL
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #6
Wasn't Science supposed to investigate "the basic wiring"?  :)  So, what went wrong?

Nothing went wrong. Science isn't a monolithic enterprise. Some scientists concentrate on the noble fruit fly, some on ungulates, others on black hole theory. Psychologists...psychologists?..."basic wiring"?...Hell, psychology is more a hobby than a science.

  • jseaton2311
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Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #7
Scientism appears at its most desperate in matters of evolution, where things clearly explicable in physical terms (astronomy, electronics, combustion) bump up against things not nearly so explicable (life, consciousness, motivations).  Scientism always finds a way, however strained, to avoid the ravages of doubt. Conceding or even considering anything outside of that small scientific box would open up a Whole Lot of Doubt.

If you wish to give 'life' to science then it could be said that science is better than human beings, sure.  Science, for what it is, already has all the answers, it is simply left to humans to slowly ferret them out and prove them.  If there are questions that science can't answer yet, why do you so quickly assume they never will?  Does the idea that science may some day answer the questions of life, consciousness and motivations scare you?  If there is no free will, would you jump off the nearest high bridge? 

Homosexuals don't breed homosexuals, so there is no environmental pressure to eliminate them by natural selection.  Why is this not so painfully obvious to a man like you and what idiot homophobe are you quoting here anyway?  (Your source link is unavailable).  Homosexuality is not a human trait, i.e. there is no gene for it.  Identical twin studies worldwide have proven this over and over in the past two decades where nature and prenatal nurture are 100% equivalent, therefore, homosexuality must be caused by post-natal factors. Cochran has methodically eliminated all other possible causes for homosexuality and has determined that it is likely caused by a yet unidentified pathogen--a non-lethal pathogen.  (One in seven humans died of TB, before that pathogen was identified and drug resistant strains are still being fought in the 21st century).  The reductio ad absurdum can sometimes be a useful method of getting at the truth, "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"--not strictly scientific, but it can point one in the right direction. 

And, as Razib Khan reiterated recently, "Because of the nature of the academy outside of religious colleges there is often silence from this minority [religious scientists...] lest they be pigeon-holed as out of step with the social culture of science. That's human nature. And scientists can't escape that, whether they are in the majority, or the minority. For all the talk of logic and empiricism, scientists are all too human in their basic wiring."

Wasn't Science supposed to investigate "the basic wiring"?  :)  So, what went wrong?

It seems that science has the most difficulty coping, in this case.

Is this suppose to say anything meaningful or just point out the obvious?  Do you see scientists as highfalutin cowboys willing to have a showdown at high noon with anyone who challenges them?  They have a competitive spirit just like most people, and just like most people, they will sometimes go awry in their zeal to win.  I can't think of a single pursuit, venture, enterprise or activity of man where this is not applicable--(not even religion of course...especially not religion!).  And what makes you think scientists would be immune to what their peers think of them? 

Quote from: Jimbro3738 on 2015-06-06, 14:28:14Quote from: jseaton2311 on 2015-06-05, 23:54:58What is the morality/ethics of religion based on in the modern world?What are they based at any time in history? Ethics and morality aren't scientific constructs, and they differ culturally by region and over time.

Get real Jimbo, certainly not true in any Abrahamic religion where morality is still dictated by the dead from books written millennia ago.  Societies all across the world are accepting the LGBT community for who they are (people), religious text condemns it as an abomination and detestable in the eyes of god (Lev. 18:22, 20:13), and the major religions still adhere to this today.  Religion wishes to dictate all sexual behavior across the board: most people in the US ignore this anyway (97% have premarital sex), so is religion really keeping pace with the times?--Hardly.   :knight:  :cheers:

EDIT: I must apologize for doing this poorly written post (my first), in a rare Sangria stupor (mangos are in season here), I will leave the drinking and driving up to Oak from now on. 
  • Last Edit: 2015-06-07, 18:33:50 by jseaton2311
James J

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #8
I will leave the drinking and driving posting up to Oak from now on
Corrected that for ya!
Was your edit also a plea to let your comments slide...? :)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #9
Get real Jimbo, certainly not true in any Abrahamic religion where morality is still dictated by the dead from books written millennia ago.  Societies all across the world are accepting the LGBT community for who they are (people), religious text condemns it as an abomination and detestable in the eyes of god (Lev. 18:22, 20:13), and the major religions still adhere to this today.  Religion wishes to dictate all sexual behavior across the board: most people in the US ignore this anyway (97% have premarital sex), so is religion really keeping pace with the times?--Hardly.

I'm not a shill for religions, so I'm not sure why you mention this in response to my comment. I don't think that 'societies' accept much of anything but people do.

Eighty-three percent of Americans identify themselves as Christians. Most of the rest, 13 percent, have no religion. And "The highest percentage ever of Americans - a 63% supermajority - back the freedom to marry as a constitutional right for gay couples." I can't do a Venn diagram, but it's pretty clear that there's a significant overlap of Christians (religious) and those who accept the LGBT community.

Such is not the case everywhere. "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)."
Guess the religion.

  • Barulheira
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Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #10
In religions, homosexuality is a matter of right and wrong. Are homosexuals guilty? How should we handle them?
Outside religions, homosexuality is sometimes a matter of normal and abnormal. Homosexuality has a cause. So, is homosexuality a disease? Should it be cured? And does it really matter?
In law, and for me, personally, it's a matter of privileges. Why should homosexuals have granted a special kind of protection? Aren't they against gender based discrimination? So, let's not discriminate. Law should be the same for everybody.

  • rjhowie
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Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #11
You touch on an interesting point. I am not known for being in the homosexual corner indeed the very opposite. I am not interested in mounting campaigns on them either but the thing that I do find irritating is that they make 2 - 3% of the population but act as if they are 50%. Recently a knight of the realm here who as an actor played the captain of the Star Trek Enterprise is of that corner ilk but he has said publicly that people who went daft about the Belfast bakers should get themselves sorted as the baker simply did not agree with what was to go on the cake. He felt although with that corner that the shop has rights too and was wrong for them to be found guilty. Now that is a sensible homo stance.

Being ridiculous on some matters of religion is not a one-sided thing as those who are daft on space and it's science side can be just as guilty of making one sigh. Coming from the centre of the Universe it gives me an added bonus regarding opinions.....
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • jseaton2311
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Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #12

I will leave the drinking and driving posting up to Oak from now on
Corrected that for ya!
Was your edit also a plea to let your comments slide...? :)

'Driving' on DnD.  Good, bad or indifferent I own my comments.  Have you read the novel Middlesex?  I am reading it now--won a Pulitzer in 2002.  :knight:  :cheers:
James J

  • jseaton2311
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Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #13
I'm not a shill for religions, so I'm not sure why you mention this in response to my comment. I don't think that 'societies' accept much of anything but people do.

Eighty-three percent of Americans identify themselves as Christians. Most of the rest, 13 percent, have no religion. And "The highest percentage ever of Americans - a 63% supermajority - back the freedom to marry as a constitutional right for gay couples." I can't do a Venn diagram, but it's pretty clear that there's a significant overlap of Christians (religious) and those who accept the LGBT community.

Certainly no offense intended my friend, it's just that the large number of Christians who accept rights for gay couples and the even larger number of Christians who have premarital sex, just goes to show that the morality of the religion is largely ignored in the US of A.  How does religion contribute anything to morality?  The devotees thumb their noses at what Christianity calls morality and the new morality that comes in stands on higher ground. It seems people have a better innate morality than what the Church has to offer.   :knight:  :cheers:
James J

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #14
Finding something immoral about pre-marital sex is a stretch for me but not for others I suppose.

I've been rid of religion for longer than many here have been alive, so I don't get very excited by the issue much any more. The last person I remember bothering about the subject was the man whose tombstone is below, a great guy who finally told me to stop bothering him. I did.

I'm not sure what innate morality is. If there was anything like it there would be millions of Indians in the U.S., lots of Romani and tens of millions of additional Russians.


  • Belfrager
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Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #15
Bruce Jenner was born with a sexual identity disorder

Seriously? The entire world is in deep sorrow...
A matter of attitude.

  • jseaton2311
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Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #16

Bruce Jenner was born with a sexual identity disorder

Seriously? The entire world is in deep sorrow...

You are a throwback to the male chauvinist pig...the entire world is in stitches.   :knight:  :cheers:
James J

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #17
You are a throwback to the male chauvinist pig...the entire world is in stitches.

Stitches can be hell!

  • Belfrager
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Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #18
You are a throwback to the male chauvinist pig...

You start speaking like a feminist, you end being a feminist. Already stopped using your bra? :)
A matter of attitude.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #19
What's more troubling, Bel, is that he's speaking like a medical quack... On what basis was this "condition" determined to be something Jenner was born with? Genetics? Environmental shocks, in utero?
I'd say wishful thinking -- but, since he doesn't believe in free will, his actions, opinions (feelings...) and words are mere responses to causal chains for which there can be no blame, nor praise!
Even his smugness is meaningless. :)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • ersi
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #20

What's more troubling, Bel, is that he's speaking like a medical quack... On what basis was this "condition" determined to be something Jenner was born with? Genetics? Environmental shocks, in utero?

He didn't say "condition". He said "disorder". This is a medical term. (Not saying that he knows what he is talking about. Just saying that he used a medical term.)

For me, there sticks out "...religion has a problem with that--based on what?" because he could just as well have said "...medical science has a problem with disorders--based on what?"

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #21
"...religion has a problem...", period. In fact, a multitude of problems.

On what basis was this "condition" determined to be something Jenner was born with? Genetics? Environmental shocks, in utero?

The below is from this source.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/10637532/Being-homosexual-is-only-partly-due-to-gay-gene-research-finds.html
I hope it doesn't get in the way of the fixed opinions y'all have come to with no more knowledge than I possess. :devil:

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In the most comprehensive study of its kind, Dr Michael Bailey, of Northwestern University, has been studying 400 sets of twins to determine if some men are genetically predisposed to being gay.
The study found that gay men shared genetic signatures on part of the X chromosome - Xq28.
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Dr Bailey said: "Sexual orientation has nothing to do with choice. Our findings suggest there may be genes at play - we found evidence for two sets that affect whether a man is gay or straight.
"But it is not completely determinative; there are certainly other environmental factors involved. "The study shows that there are genes involved in male sexual orientation.
"Although this could one day lead to a pre-natal test for male sexual orientation, it would not be very accurate, as there are other factors that can influence the outcome."
Dr Alan Sanders, associate Professor of Psychiatry at Northwestern University, who led the study said that it was it was an 'oversimplification' to suggest there was a 'gay gene.'
"We don't think genetics is the whole story. It's not. We have a gene that contributes to homosexuality but you could say it is linked to heterosexuality. It is the variation."


Now for the big question. When appropriately lettered scientists disagree, what do the rest of us do?
  • Last Edit: 2015-06-10, 17:14:35 by Jimbro3738

  • Belfrager
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Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #22
There are very rare psychiatric diseases (or disorders, whatever) that the patient, for example, doesn't recognizes his hand as being part of his own body and wants to cut it.
Transsexuals, if they are real transsexuals, would be the same kind of situation, what I don't understand is why they aren't locked up in psychiatric hospitals for treatment but instead are shown in the media circus as... what? clowns? celebrities? examples??
A matter of attitude.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #23
...nope, Jimbro. Such studies don't get in the way -- at all: They remain murky, and weak statistically. (Much more so than, say, studies of g, often cited  as general intelligence... If you've followed arguments over this for any appreciable time, you'll have noted that positions are mostly ideological.) But such is the nature of "social" science.
And believing that --eventually-- all of science will be subsumed by physics is similarly an ideological position...
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • jseaton2311
  • [*][*][*][*]
Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.
Reply #24
Transsexuals, if they are real transsexuals, would be the same kind of situation, what I don't understand is why they aren't locked up in psychiatric hospitals for treatment but instead are shown in the media circus as... what? clowns? celebrities? examples??

India has about 500,000 transsexuals and that developing nation recently recognized them as the "third gender" with equal rights under the law.  Acknowledgment of transgenders as a third gender is not a social or medical issue--it is a human rights issue.  Is this something that you and/or your country would applaud?  :knight:  :cheers:
James J