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Topic: What's Going on in Europe (Read 128355 times)

What's Going on in Europe
Portugal is weeping, Geert Wilders Says Netherlands Would Be Better Off if It Left 28-Nation Bloc, France can't compete with Germany, Merkel is pissed at Obama, Belgium is ousting Afgans. Is anybody happy?

  • jax
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1100
"PragerU" rankles a bit, as it is unrelated to Prague and it is definitely not a university, false advertisement.

Presumably the original holder of the Prager surname originally came from Prague, but that is a tenuous link. Worse is to call a "listen to us bloviate" opinion machine a university, but university is not a protected title. Maybe we should call this the DnD University?

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1101
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For years, the Dutch mainstream media have spread hatred and defamation against Wilders for trying to warn the Dutch people - and Europe - about what their future will be if they continue their current immigration policies;
Oh come on, those dreaded Turks and Moroccans aren't in the top 10 anymore, and nobody even remembers the Italians who probably came in larger numbers still. There's a temporary spike in Syrians, but most migrants are Dutch, Polish, German, and from the former Soviet Union. That's not warning about anything. That's either purposefully playing on some vague cultural memory of the idea that Turks and Moroccans are the #1 immigrants (because they were in the '50s and '60s) or plain delusion. Those scary "immigrant youth" are third-gen immigrants just like me.[1]

Placing more restrictions on immigration is what we call a wax nose in Dutch. It means pretending something's an important subject but in reality it's irrelevant. In this case because the level of scrutiny applied to potential immigrants is already at such an absurdly high level.

Wilders has really gone downhill in recent years. Perhaps it's not his own fault, having had to live under constant police protection for a decade, but he seems to have lost touch with fact-based reasoning.
The influx of migrants hidden behind my thoroughly Dutch/Belgian name is mostly "good," from Germany, Belgium, and France, but there were at least a couple of Catholic apples in there -- the Muslims of the '50s and prior, so to speak.

  • ersi
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1102
Placing more restrictions on immigration is what we call a wax nose in Dutch. It means pretending something's an important subject but in reality it's irrelevant.
Immigration is somewhat of a funny topic over here. Mostly businessmen are whining that there is not enough "qualified workforce" so they demand easier ways to be able to import it. In reality, what they import is of course ultra cheap Chinese or Vietnamese labour, there are a few actual instances of such import/immigration, so for one, they can already import it based on the current work permit system, and second, "qualified workforce" is BS.

Moreover, we actually have a large unemployed Russian-speaking population living in an underdeveloped part of the country, a compact fifth or so of the territory. If that's the labour you want, why not go there? Or is that territory unbusinessable?

Then we have a fresh nationalistic party who gained some seats in the parliament lately. I would trust their nationalist sentiments, if they spoke about the situation in the country as it is. Namely, still too many openly illoyal Russians here. But instead the nationalist party ideologues talk about Syrians and Muslims which we don't have. Yes, Syrians were an enormous wave of immigrants a few years ago, and officially Estonia has accepted a few thousand of them, but de facto the refugee wave completely bypassed this country. A few hundred Syrian refugees who stayed here for a little while, ran away as soon as possible and apparently they have told about their experience to other refugees so nobody comes here anymore.

I'd be happy to vote for some sort of nationalist party, but not for one with completely borrowed rhetoric. All the rest of the parties also borrow their rhetoric, quite transparently, when you simply follow the news in neighbouring countries and USA. Sadly there is no independent politics to be had here.

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1103
Immigration is somewhat of a funny topic over here.
Wilders is doing a funny (read: sad) bait and switch on immigration. Migration might indeed be at an all time high. That is a fact... but mainly with Germans and Dutch people. Mention that fact in passing without saying the vast majority immigration (and emigration) comes from Dutch citizens, drop in a reference to Syrian refugee numbers being slightly higher than last year, even though in reality even the spike makes them only a few percent of migrants at most, and by association you've got uncritical (?) people thinking or pretending to think there's hundreds of thousands of Syrians flooding the country in some kind of metaphorical immigration wave, even though non-Western immigration is pretty much at an all time low in spite of Syria.

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1104
Wilders I would say has a point whether the usual would-be broad minded so called liberal minded democrats want to hear it or not. The Netherlands has become a very overcrowded place and here in Gt Britain especially in England there is an issue. Away back in the 1940's Britain had a population of 48 million and now well into the 60's and expected to pass 70 million. Why?

Well many of the incomers are from a tradition of large families and the clever clog experts will say that once a population, race or whatever sinks below 2.4 children decline is in existence. Much of the incomers here over the decades tend to have large families. Channel 4 News here which tends to specialise on issues with a bit more detail actually did something much of the news body-swerves and that is the amount of racial background criminology especially in london. The level of black based such events are very high indeed and happen. The news item said that experts in fields have said that there is some mental health issues involved with this area.

On a wider scale every few weeks the authorities in Britain have admitted that they are investigating or arresting people for matters of terrorism and what background? Muslim and the young. Islam violence and terror is a wider European issue. Sweden always noted for it's idea of liberalism has chronic violence from immigrants and the areas tend to be Islam full. The same has happened i Germany and look what other places like France have suffered. My population is being set for going on through 70,000,000 and all this means continued pressure on service, housing, general living things and so on. It is not being said even that figure will be the eventual target and being an island it is going to be hell here by the end of this century of not before.

Whether open minds like it or not a country or continent cannot just think things will be okay. Pressures and terror will continue to grow in Europe and my placeand that so many young people are involved does nothing to alleviate the matter. The nightmare will continue.  :irked:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Belfrager
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1105
but de facto the refugee wave completely bypassed this country.
Of course, they want to go to Germany where they think they will receive a mansion, a BMW and get rich.
Refugee camps develops such "culture".
A matter of attitude.

  • ersi
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1106
Of course, they want to go to Germany where they think they will receive a mansion, a BMW and get rich.
When the refugees were interviewed, it turned out that they were indeed under the impression that everybody should get at least Adidas outfit and iPhone - that's how Europe was marketed to them in their homeland. And they want to live ideally in Germany in their own ghetto, so they can get by in their own language and habitual culture.

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1107
Wilders I would say has a point whether the usual would-be broad minded so called liberal minded democrats want to hear it or not. The Netherlands has become a very overcrowded place and here in Gt Britain especially in England there is an issue. Away back in the 1940's Britain had a population of 48 million and now well into the 60's and expected to pass 70 million. Why?
Regardless whether or not that is a valid point, when asking if we want more or fewer Moroccans I'm not inclined to think the point is secretly whether or not we want more Poles.

Most migrants quite simply aren't Muslim, nor poor in money or skills. Ignoring that most migration consists of Dutch citizens like myself moving in and out of the country, you've got your Germans, your United Statesians and your United Kingdomians. These are by and large "rich" and well educated migrants, culturally similar without even trying. You've got your Poles and Bulgarians -- mostly cheap skilled labor, there to meet demand. You've got your other parts of the kingdom (Dutch Antilles, Aruba), and then you've got your rich and/or well-educated, highly skilled people from China and India. Culturally you might think of those as more problematic, but economically speaking they do well and their children assimilate quickly. Turks, Moroccans and other Muslims barely make a blip anymore.

If immigration is indeed a problem -- which for the record is not supported by the evidence, quite the contrary -- then the actually relevant targets for ire would presumably be Poland, Bulgaria, and a collection of other relatively recent EU members from beyond the Iron Curtain and the former Soviet Union, including Estonia. More than half of all non-Dutch migrants hail from eastern Europe, while over a third consists of Germans, Americans and people from the UK. Rich Asians make up the remainder. Muslims barely even register anymore. This has been true for probably the entire duration of Wilders' tenure in the Second Chamber.

You should not be deceived by Guy Millière or Wilders into thinking that migrating to the Netherlands is simple or has been for the past two decades, regardless what the situation may have been in the '60s when we were inviting everybody over to fuel our economy. It's simple enough to immigrate if you're an EU citizen or if you originate from a select list of countries.[1] You can glean some information from here if you care to. It should be fairly doable for anyone sufficiently rich or highly skilled, but extremely prohibitive otherwise. For instance, I just looked at the steps for a Mongolian. Step 1: get ready for a very long trip to China. That's in addition to all the regular tests about Dutch language and culture, all the tests against diseases, the income and educational requirements, etc. You need a lot of time, money, and dedication to even try, none of which guarantee that you'll be left in.

Whether open minds like it or not a country or continent cannot just think things will be okay. Pressures and terror will continue to grow in Europe and my placeand that so many young people are involved does nothing to alleviate the matter. The nightmare will continue.  :irked:
Of course there are real problems. There's a contingent of macho bully anti-Semitic homophobic violence-based culture which is contemptible, against all Dutch values, and beyond the pale. I won't claim to know what the right way to address the problem is, and perhaps neither does the government, but to make it about immigration is a wax nose. These troublemakers aren't immigrants. There might be a few hate imams we could conceivably toss back to Saudi Arabia or whatever hole they crawled out of but that's about it as far as immigration goes.

NB That's all under existing immigration and hate laws. Misbehave as an immigrant, e.g., by inciting hatred against Jews and homosexuals, and you're out.
A few European countries like Switzerland and Norway, the US and Commonwealth countries, as well as Japan and South Korea.

  • ersi
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1108
There might be a few hate imams we could conceivably toss back to Saudi Arabia or whatever hole they crawled out of but that's about it as far as immigration goes.
The inflammatory issue is more specifically refugees, a tiny fraction of immigration. In the name of hospitality, understanding that the situation is critical as it was during the Syria refugee crisis, refugees should be taken in and accommodated with little screening as fast as possible. All sorts of elements get in this way, but they are predominantly ordinary people and, as said, refugees are a small fraction of total immigration.

It becomes a persistent problem when refugee camps turn into permanent ghettos. Then hate imams may appear in the next generation. But more commonly hate imams are travelling lecturers, at least in Sweden.

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1109
Well Frenzie if you take Sweden for an example and that long stance on openness and look what the h they are getting internally. Germany is getting the same crime problems too. France is a nightmare when it comes to the level of terror. My country as indicated is having to make arrest every few weeks on planning dangerous people and so it goes on. As the importing side of people continues and grows Europe will become more and more dangerous as this century foes on. The old idea of concern for immigrants is a past stance. Islam in particular is a danger and the only consolation is that later this century we will all be gone and Europe will be an even more hell-hole as will this small overcrowded island. Islam and democracy do not go well so our future generations are going to be a desperate time.  :(
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • SmileyFaze
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1110
Islam in particular is a danger and the only consolation is that later this century we will all be gone and Europe will be an even more hell-hole as will this small overcrowded island. Islam and democracy do not go well so our future generations are going to be a desperate time.  :(

And who said RJ & SmileyFaze  could never see things the same!!!???

Hey, RJ how bout it?

Howzat having some more black blood in the Blue-Blooded Royal Family ehh......feels good...dunnit!!?? 

Seems she isn't the first though, is she..........There has been Black-African Blood flowing in ALL the Royals veins for quite some time, hasn't there RJ!?

Well, nice to know we agree on the muzzie dilemma in Europe though.....   Ooh, ah, up the 'RA! ... Tiocfaidh ár lá


     In times of universal deceit, telling the honest truth is a revolutionary act.

  • ersi
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1111
GDPR is even worse than the earlier cookie directive. The cookie directive littered all websites with popups. GDPR created both popups and global inbox spam.

But more of it may be coming, Consenting to cookies is driving Europeans nuts--a new law might kill the pop-ups.

I'm sure they will find a way to formulate it so that finally the whole internet gets clogged up. I'm seriously sick of the EU proving its online incompetence at every turn. Browser-sniffers and popups whining about adblocks or requesting you to participate in a poll or a bargain have always been more than enough, but the EU keeps insisting on ever more popups and more spam.

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1112
The GDPR mails are more a result of company incompetence, many were/are unprepared.

Opt-in (like the cookie banners) have their limits, not the least that you usually don't have a real option. The banner is just adding insult to injury. Besides the opt-ins and opt-outs, here like on Android or iOS or elsewhere, are hardly cases of informed consent.

GDPR has more teeth, as can be witnessed by the 3.9 + 3.7 billion euro 0th day court-case against Facebook and Google, for not having meaningful conditions of consent. 

Quote
Under the complaints, NOYB alleges that users are being railroaded or coerced into granting consent in order to access services.
"Facebook has even blocked accounts of users who have not given consent," said Schrems in a statement.
"In the end, users only had the choice to delete the account or hit the 'agree' button - that's not a free choice; it more reminds of a North Korean election process.
"Many users do not know yet that this annoying way of pushing people to consent is actually forbidden under GDPR in most cases."
Schrems said the purpose of the cases is to enable better European coordination.
The crux of the matter is whether data needs to be actually gathered at all (and consent granted) in order to provide some of these services. According to NOYB, GDPR prevents forced consent and any form of bundling a service with the requirement of consent.


  • ersi
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1113
The GDPR mails are more a result of company incompetence, many were/are unprepared.
No. It's the administrative/political incompetence.

It's like this: News gets out about a new law/policy that everyone must comply with. But the message is mixed, so everybody tends to overreact. And, as natural in the commercial world, many try their best to turn it into their own advantage.

All in all, the EU authorities actually had no sensible message, no meaningful policy. Surely there would have been more preparedness, had there been clarity as to what to be prepared for.

Opt-in (like the cookie banners) have their limits, not the least that you usually don't have a real option.
When you don't have a real option, then it's not an opt-in in the first place. And when it's not an opt-in, you cannot say opt-in has its limits. Because we are not dealing with an opt-in!

I would have been mighty happy if the cookie situation had been solved in an opt-in manner. It wasn't. It was solved in a sweeping nonsense manner: Compulsory global bugging for no reason.

Cookies make sense ONLY when you want to log in somewhere or otherwise preserve your settings at a given website. That's when you enable cookies for that particular website - it's the browser's job. But the cookie directive caused popups absolutely everywhere, when for about 90% of your browsing cookies have no reason to be there at all, so there is also no reason for any messages about cookies.

And most popups provide you only with OK - no CANCEL and no X, i.e. no real options, just bugging annoyance. When there is no reason for the cookies, what's the reason for bugging about cookies? The websites did not come up with this nonsense. The EU directive created this. It's the administrative/political failure. Prior to the directive, I had no issues browsing the web with cookies turned off. The directive created the problem.

And GDPR does the same thing even worse. It's compulsory global bugging for no reason. When companies are told to be more careful with data about me, there is no reason why I must do something, sign something again for the companies or whatever, as if there were not enough things for me to sign and sign and sign in this world already. It's the companies that must do something, namely to be more careful with their data about me. I should not be forced to do anything - it was their fault all along, not mine. When my only plan is to leave minimal traces, why should I be forced to sign and OK things right and left?

What the EU should have done was force all internet-connected apps (like Facebook, Instagram, etc.) have dedicated cookie/history/privacy settings where Clean/Delete options truly clean and delete. Just like there is in browsers. And when you don't use a service/website, your account self-destructs in some time - like it used to be in the 90's. Internet was sensible back then.

No such joy from the incompetent EU politicians. They just make spam, popups, and unsafety explode globally.

And don't get me started on NOYB that happily rides on this confusion. NOYB is no better than any of the companies who spam everybody with their updated terms and conditions.
  • Last Edit: 2018-05-25, 20:49:51 by ersi

  • Barulheira
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1114
The "cancel" button is the "close tab" button. :(

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1115
I would first remind Frenzie that it was reckoned in 2010 there were about 44 million Muslims (6% of the total population), including 19 million (3.8% of the population) in the EU. What has that lot brought with them but terrorism and endangered the Continent. Here in GB every few weeks there is an arrest or two on people planning bombing and killing. You are living in cloud cuckoo land.  Another thing we discovered in Britain was the level of problems with eastern Europeans especially from Romania and Bulgaria. Islam has brought with it all that violence and affected our daily life. Added security including when travelling is thanks to them.

And now to the resident terrorist here in the forum namely the American corporate supporter.

Smiley really has a damnable nerve. From a country during World War 2 when his army had to practice  Apartheid as whites did not want black alongside them. interesting stance when we were fighting Nazi racists. The new and pretty addition to our Royal Family is fine and comes from a mixed background it should be remembered. Considering that American jails are filled more with blacks kind of says something practical. Unlike SmileyFaze I do not support murderous scumbag terror groups as he does.  When even a so-called long term advertised "liberal democratic" country like Sweden is suffering islamic crime and violence on woeful scales it shows that those from that background do not care a damn about democracy, etc. By the end of this century my own country will not be the only one suffering from that religion so will the EU.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ersi
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1116
I would first remind Frenzie that it was reckoned in 2010 there were about 44 million Muslims (6% of the total population), including 19 million (3.8% of the population) in the EU
You evidently took the number from this page  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe
But this page is not about the EU. It's about Europe, including Russia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, etc. where Islam is native.

In other words, you are not talking about immigrants or refugees. You are not talking about anything in particular. You're just talking.

  • ersi
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1117
The GDPR mails are more a result of company incompetence, many were/are unprepared.
It's the administrative/political problem when the companies are allowed to interpret it so that they can push all the annoyance and responsibility on the end user, instead of taking it themselves. When the companies are allowed to interpret it so that they can bug the entire world, it only makes the companies happy.

Currently, the worst offender is Forbes.com. I cannot even access it in text-mode browser (cookies and javascript off) without being blocked from the page I actually typed to go to. Never before has it been this bad.

Edit: The companies take GDPR as an absolute demand to put a barrier between the content and the user and they are thrilled to say, "The EU is making us do it." This already happened with the cookie directive. The EU did not learn from the mistake. I'm positive that they did not even see it as a mistake. In their mind, things are pretty good now and can be improved perhaps when everybody signs and accepts and acknowledges a bunch of things every time they connect to internet, and then again every time they turn a page on the internet.

From the companies' point of view, they are getting exactly what they want - advertising first, content later. It used to be advertising alongside with the content, and minimal repercussions when the user uses adblocks and filters. Advertising is their religion, and when there is a legal demand for them to stick it in your face up front before anything else, they are happy happy happy.
For many publishers, relatively unobtrusive pop-ups seem to suffice--some sites ask for agreement to store and track your data (like Quartz), while others simply point to privacy policies. The content on these sites remains accessible to visitors from the EU.
The last sentence is false, as proven by the image that immediately follows it.

Obviously, the content on this site is NOT accessible to visitors from the EU. It's accessible to visitors from outside the EU only. Now I am forced to use VPN all the time to appear to be on another continent. Thanks, EU.
  • Last Edit: 2018-05-26, 08:17:27 by ersi

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1118
I would first remind Frenzie that it was reckoned in 2010 there were about 44 million Muslims (6% of the total population), including 19 million (3.8% of the population) in the EU. What has that lot brought with them but terrorism and endangered the Continent. Here in GB every few weeks there is an arrest or two on people planning bombing and killing. You are living in cloud cuckoo land.
But what's the relevance of any of those numbers when Wilders' claim is that we should make immigration harder? You can be excused for not knowing all of the post-2000 details but that doesn't mean you should say random things based on some vague feeling of unease. Back in the late '80s Bolkestein (VVD, i.e., liberals) tried to put immigration on the agenda, but without much success against opposition from Labour. Nevertheless they already managed to put a minimum income requirement in place in '93, as well as strict checks against fake marriages in '94.

Around the turn of the millennium the political climate changed completely (cf. Pim Fortuyn), and as early as '04 the new rules had already proved effective by reducing the kind of immigration targeted by 35%.[1] That was only the beginning, however, and it's been built up over time. Post-'07 it's become practically impossible to immigrate to the Netherlands. Even if you're from a "good" country like the US it's very expensive and hard, but probably theoretically achievable provided you've got quite a few thousands of Euros to waste on bureaucratic nonsense, as well as cultural and language tests. If you're lucky that might at least take place in your country of origin, but like I said if you're Mongolian you have to travel all the way to China.

Within that context, to talk about immigration is nothing but hot air. You might realistically have a program of not weakening immigration policy, but what would making it stronger even mean? Banning even that tiny trickle of rich or highly skilled immigrants from even attempting? It's meaningless drivel, unworthy of a Dutch politician. There's simply no such thing as immigration from Muslim countries in meaningful numbers anymore.
It's about Europe, including Russia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, etc. where Islam is native.
I would imagine there are also several million in the European part of Turkey alone.
Mainly family reunification. The not fake type.

  • ersi
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1119
It's about Europe, including Russia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, etc. where Islam is native.
I would imagine there are also several million in the European part of Turkey alone.
The source for the Wikipedia page is this http://www.pewforum.org/2011/01/27/future-of-the-global-muslim-population-regional-europe/
It says it excludes Turkey, but includes Siberian Russia.

Anyway, the relevant sentence which RJ apparently spotted, says, "By 2010 an estimated 44 million Muslims were living in Europe (6%), including an estimated 19 million in the EU (3.8%)." He should have kept reading after the comma, and not equate Europe with the EU.

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1120
Finally, Ireland has normality. Took them long enough.

I am no great supporter of referendums, but 2/3 of the voters with 2/3 of the electorate voting is sufficiently  clear that any other approach would likely ended up with similar result.

Ireland abortion referendum: PM hails 'quiet revolution'


  • Belfrager
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1121
Abortion is a crime, no matter how many referendums. The same for eutanásia.
A matter of attitude.

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1122
Eh, ersi?

Whether one looks at Europe or the EU either are still large!  It is still too large a number of Muslims and their weird faith and I would again remind that the Continent has due to large numbers a dodgy futire  to cope with. Who is it that is a mass terror corner but in that tradition! And to make matters worse in the future here AND the Continent that immigrants routinely have larger families. May I also remind again that once a race or tradition falls below 2.4 kids they are in decline whereas groups like the Islamists that number is a no-no. The future IS not bright but the word 'dangerous' will continue to grow.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ersi
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1123
Whether one looks at Europe or the EU either are still large!  It is still too large a number of Muslims and their weird faith...
It matters a lot how you draw the borders of Europe. In Europe, Islam is irreducible at least in Albania and Bosnia, not to mention Azerbaijan and certain parts of Russia. And Islam is not any weirder than Orthodox or Catholic Christianity. Its adherents are broadly as lukewarm as Christians. Everybody has their traditions. Their numbers seem large only in West European ghettos. You don't live in a ghetto, do you? Allowing ghettos to build up is the wrong policy.

And to make matters worse in the future here AND the Continent that immigrants routinely have larger families.
This only matters when they are put in ghettos. Outside ghettos, their sense of identity dissolves and the next generation is quite well assimilated to the overall population.

  • ersi
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1124
Abortion is a crime, no matter how many referendums. The same for eutanásia.
Euthanasia is a bit more complicated, when you have a concept of mercy kill. Abortion fits under mercy kill only in very exceptional circumstances, mostly it doesn't.

Anyway, neither euthanasia, abortion, or mercy kill is a job for a doctor. It's a job for a veterinarian or, more likely, a butcher. Doctors should go by the Hippocratic oath - aim to preserve life at all times.

Another thing to consider is how the country's policy aligns with the neighbours. When lots of people want abortion and it's allowed in the neighbouring countries, then this creates travelling for economic reasons and a shadow economy back home. Economy does not care about morals, but unbalanced trade destroys both economy and morals.