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Topic: What's Going on in Europe (Read 163101 times)

What's Going on in Europe
Portugal is weeping, Geert Wilders Says Netherlands Would Be Better Off if It Left 28-Nation Bloc, France can't compete with Germany, Merkel is pissed at Obama, Belgium is ousting Afgans. Is anybody happy?

  • Belfrager
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1200
When was the EU ever at the supremacy role? Back in the golden age of colonisation, when there was no EU in the first place?
Well, culturally, scientifically, artistically, economically, technologically and socially there was nothing else than Europe fore more than two thousand years.
Militarily, you can take maybe fifty years to the two thousand.

And what is wrong in supporting Brexit?
Nothing, they should have gone much time ago and return to the American servant role they have for long.
The EU project is exactly to keep Europe free from others domination.
A matter of attitude.

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1201
they have the wrong sort of power sockets
So do France and Belgium with type E. Schuko/type F and Danish type K are so much better.

They had all the exceptions and still whined for more
It's especially curious when they supported or even piloted new EU regulation just to turn around and claim the EU made them do it.

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1202
Well, culturally, scientifically, artistically, economically, technologically and socially there was nothing else than Europe fore more than two thousand years.
Militarily, you can take maybe fifty years to the two thousand.

For about two centuries, the 18th and 19th, European (colonial) powers could be said to be supreme technologically, technologically, and militarily (and the rest followed). Rest of history, not so much. Still had a lot going for them, mind you, but that supremacy was short. The North American supremacy has been even shorter.

  • jax
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1203
Schuko/type F and Danish type K are so much better.

Yes, that's the superior plug. As an application of Postel's law, Chinese sockets are pretty good, by supporting US, European (unearthed) and Australian (earthed) plugs. 

However, they are big and unwieldy, and provide little security for accidental electric shocks (nor earth for Type F+). In that regard the Europlugs (type C) are better, in inset sockets it is practically impossible to touch the leads when live.


  • Frenzie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1204
In that regard the Europlugs (type C) are better, in inset sockets it is practically impossible to touch the leads when live.
Sure, those are great. Still pretty darn hard to touch inside type E/F/K in any case and likely actually impossible due to the plastic at the onset of the pins? But that is yet another thing I prefer about type not-E, because you can fairly easily hurt yourself on that stupid ground pin while trying to pull out a Europlug. Being more or less safe from electrocution isn't the same thing as being safe from injury.

My position is that Schuko is by far the safest and most user-friendly. If we really needed forced polarity I'm hard-pressed to believe that most of Europe would be using Schuko, but in that case the Danish system is greatly superior to the French/Belgian one.

provide little security for accidental electric shocks
Well, I guess it's no worse than a European outlet from before my birth or a present-day American one. Do they also put them on the floor so as to more easily electrocute infants?

Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1205
Best of luck to the Brits on February 1st. I expect they'll need it.

https://youtu.be/Jo_-KoBiBG0

  • ensbb3
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1206
Well, I guess it's no worse than a European outlet from before my birth or a present-day American one. Do they also put them on the floor so as to more easily electrocute infants?

Forgive my ignorance, but where should plugs go? Most of the time they are presumed to be behind furniture. There are safety inserts for toddlers and I can't recall ever being shocked where the end or socket wasn't clearly an issue. Where it makes sense plugs are higher on the wall. 110v is enough to make you take a step back, feels a bit like getting shoved hard, but won't actually hurt you. More so a kid, sure, but haven't heard of it really being an issue since the 80's. I've encountered cattle fences that have more punch than a standard outlet.

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1207
Forgive my ignorance, but where should plugs go?
Apparently at least 15 cm in regular rooms and 25 cm in humid rooms.

But I was just railing against the weird outlet placement in my apartment really. There's three in the bedroom... and also three in the living room, one of which was made unavailable by some weird later piping thing. In the '70s that was surely almost as absurd as it is now.

These days afaik it's normal to put them higher most of the time, perhaps around the standard kitchen height of 105 cm, mainly for convenience probably.

It is, however, very difficult to ever get a shock from a modern European outlet, even without child-proofing. :)

  • ensbb3
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1208
25 cm in humid rooms.
The plot thickens. I've never heard of the humidity being a factor. I mean unless it's an outdoor plug. 25cm (Approx 10in) is about standard for here. A little high. I've got a few higher, that's not in a bathroom or kitchen, but I picked my plug locations as per need in some places and not looks.

The 70's and 80's produced some interesting wiring habits for sure. I've received mild shocks from outlets that old. Improper grounding and questionable placement was common. Plug styles have changed a bit too. My uncle has an outlet on his porch that he loves to get someone to plug in some string lights he has around the porch so they get a mild shock. You have to stand up on a step and reach making you want to place your other hand on his metal storm door. If you do you'll get about 20 volts. Enough to cause a yelp, lol.

With a properly grounded plug you actually have to stick something metal (conductive) in both sides to complete the circuit. That's not that easy. But I'm all for people thinking their kid sticking some plastic toy or paper in there will hurt them. Teaches the concept of danger. I've always been curious why Europeans use 220v to every outlet. It stands to reason you'd need a more secure plug. We only use 220v for appliances. And there's no way a child will ever get to one of those. 
  • Last Edit: 2020-01-30, 17:36:34 by ensbb3

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1209
I've always been curious why Europeans use 220v to every outlet. It stands to reason you'd need a more secure plug.
There's plenty of deaths and injuries from 110 V DC; it hardly seems like it matters whether 220/230 V AC is slightly more or less dangerous when both are plenty so. From what I've heard 110 V DC is actually more dangerous because it's attractive while AC has a higher chance of escape, including by inducing muscle spasms. And also that it's about the current, not the voltage, and although a higher voltage theoretically supports a higher current in practice the reverse may apply as in less current being required due to increased efficiency... tl;dr it's complicated.

With a properly grounded plug you actually have to stick something metal (conductive) in both sides to complete the circuit.
Yes, and that conductive metal thing is called a plug. :P That's the whole point behind what @jax and I were talking about. A major way an infant (or anyone) would accidentally complete a circuit is by touching the pins while removing or inserting the plug. That's why modern European plugs are insulated with a bunch of plastic at the top of the pins combined with recessed outlets, so you basically can't touch the pins by accident and not even while trying really hard to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europlug
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CEE_7-7.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuko

Compare to the situation in an old-fashioned (basically like an American) socket:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Schuko_plug_inserted_in_CEE_7_1_ungrounded_socket.jpg

But of course protection against paperclips is also good. Modern European and American ones are both "tamper proof" afaik. Tamper with a hairpin really difficult, especially if you have the hand strength of a 3-year-old, is probably a better way to put it. ;)

  • ensbb3
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1210
From what I've heard 110 V DC is actually more dangerous because it's attractive while AC has a higher chance of escape,
We do use AC. I've never seen a DC system over like 24ish volts.

Yea, y'all were talking about risk of touching the pins. I lost sight of that. I can remember a scare or two but for the most part keeping such risk out of reach was easy enough. I tend to think active parenting is better but risk reduction has it's points... So long as it doesn't lead to lax parenting.

I can see an advantage to 220v don't get me wrong. It's just mostly unnecessary. most things you plug in just convert it to 12v or 24v DC anyway. Only using a fraction of the available current. With 220v (that is an avg. actual volts vary) you can have more items in tandem on the same line from the box. We separate several 110v lines throughout the house and most 220v run on their own circuit. (Only one appliance on the circuit). Most 110v lines nowadays also have redundant breakers (GFI plugs). If you did touch the leads, and actually got full current, you'd likely pop a breaker instantly. The box (main electrical box) has 1500 volts AC to it. Separating the lines keeps degradation excessive amps when having too many things plugged in to one circuit from being an issue (the line gets hot. Breakers are in amps but I wanna keep this simple. Basically the box can give more amps than the line can handle, at any voltage.). With 220v you could have more things in tandem without a worry (more amps). A spark at 110v scares you. At 220v? I've seen a fireball out of one. I've seen it take a chunk out of a hardened steel tool too.

At the end of the day I'm not arguing one is better. More curious why 110v AC American style electrical is always scoffed at by Europeans when I don't really see where it matters and even seems to have advantages. Prolly need to pick a European electrician's brain for that tho. I've had that luxury with American electricians.

I do see what you mean with the plugs you linked. I guess it's just in all my years I've never accidentally touched the leads. Plenty of slop jobs/reach behind and get it with the tip of my fingers included. Even so it does make sense to have a little plastic there on the ends.
  • Last Edit: 2020-01-31, 01:30:09 by ensbb3

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1211
I was also complimenting the way the three-pin plug works while scoffing at the fact that you can touch the pins. ;)

My bad about DC. Looks like that was Edison who ultimately lost out. He also seems to be responsible for some marketing campaign portraying a voltage higher than 110 V as dangerous because he happened to sell 110 V.

I don't really see where it matters and even seems to have advantages.
Doesn't 220 V have lower distribution costs due to fewer losses? I had to do calculations on that kind of stuff in physics class.

But we used to have split 127/220 volt before it was normalized to 220 in the '60s or '70s, basically the same as in America. I don't really know the specifics.

I suspect if anyone who knows the subject scoffs it would be about stuff like our three-phase vs. American split phase stuff rather than some comparatively minor detail like the voltage.

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1212
At 220v? I've seen a fireball out of one.
Btw what exactly do you do with those plugs/sockets/power lines?  :right:

Edit: phase stuff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power#Europe

  • ensbb3
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1213
lol. I did get the numbers wrong. Really makes you think I know what I'm talking about, huh? :nervous:

Some of my experiences are fringe. That was a stove I looked at for an old lady. Thing was ancient. Before my time anyway. Wasn't working... So check the plug, right? Pulled it out and bend down to unplug it just as the end connected to the stove came loose? Exploded? Ignited.

Other one, a guy cut a live 240... :whistle: (does explain why my tester says 122.ish usually) ...with a blade for cutting metal. Blew a good piece out of it. Fun stuff.

**crawls back in hole**

  • Belfrager
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1214
Electricity is a mystery.
A matter of attitude.

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1215
Ah Belfrager another mystery is how you and I would get on if I went to Portugal for a holiday?! :D
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Belfrager
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1216
I'm sorry Rjhowie but since today you are out of Europe I'm afraid we can't let you enter...
A matter of attitude.

  • ersi
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1217
Are they out now? For real, finally? No more negotiation nonsense? Did they decide anything about the tunnel in the bottom of La Manche?

  • ersi
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1218

Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1219
Ah Belfrager another mystery is how you and I would get on if I went to Portugal for a holiday?! :D
Have you gotten your blue passport yet?

I always knew that deep down, you wanted to be like we Americans. :D

  • jax
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1220
Are they out now? For real, finally? No more negotiation nonsense? Did they decide anything about the tunnel in the bottom of La Manche?


Formally out. Publicly out in 2021 (or a little later). Practically out somewhere around 2028 (or a little later). That is if things go smoothly and nobody changes their mind in the next decade.

  • Barulheira
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Don't change your mind in the next decade!
Reply #1221
That is if things go smoothly and nobody changes their mind in the next decade.
:lol:

Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1222

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1223
For the moment I'm failing to find exactly what she said, but when reading obvious nonsense like the following the idea that she was in the wrong automatically becomes significantly less plausible:
Quote
Zekri added that the teenager's comments were not covered by freedom of expression but were insulting and provocative.

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1224
I found what looks like a direct quote:
« Je déteste la religion [...], le Coran, il n'y a que de la haine là-dedans, l'islam, c'est de la merde, c'est ce que je pense. Je ne suis pas raciste, pas du tout. On ne peut pas être raciste envers une religion. J'ai dit ce que j'en pensais, vous n'allez pas me le faire regretter. Il y a encore des gens qui vont s'exciter, j'en ai clairement rien à foutre, je dis ce que je veux, ce que je pense. Votre religion, c'est de la merde, votre Dieu, je lui mets un doigt dans le trou du cul, merci, au revoir.  » Voilà ce que déclare Mila depuis sa chambre, ce soir du 19 janvier. La vidéo est immédiatement enregistrée par plusieurs internautes, puis rediffusée massivement sur Twitter. La machine est lancée.

"I hate religion, there's nothing but hatred in Islam, Islam is shit. I'm not a racist because you can't be racist against a religion. [...] Your religion is shit, your God, I'll stick my finger up his ass, thanks bye."

So yeah, if that's it there's nothing to see there. It's crude and in poor taste, sure, but it was a response to being called a dirty lesbian, a dirty whore, and a dirty racist in Allah's name. Responding that the horrifically immoral Allah can stuff it is pretty logical, and feigning to be upset about the finger up his ass thing is nothing but tone trolling. The offensive statement is the claim that Islam/the Koran/Allah is immoral,[1] let's not pretend otherwise.
Immoral being the nicer way of saying "merde" ("shit").