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Topic: What's Going on in Europe (Read 197970 times)

What's Going on in Europe
Portugal is weeping, Geert Wilders Says Netherlands Would Be Better Off if It Left 28-Nation Bloc, France can't compete with Germany, Merkel is pissed at Obama, Belgium is ousting Afgans. Is anybody happy?

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1275
But in the EU, some facts never get acknowledged for the sake of keeping up appearances.
How exactly should EU evade the human condition? :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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  • rjhowie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1276
Break up!
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1277
You meam the EU should "devolve"?! Clever idea; can you teach my pig to fly? :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1278
I wouldn't want to send your only friend away poor man.  :o  

Personally I have not time for the EU and never liked us being a member. It is not that unified (a bit like your country O) Just a pity your Civil War was not successful for the Confederates as the US would I surmise not be that worldly arrogant on the planet. (heehee).  Is there still a shortfall from EU places not paying their full NATO bills? There are also countries with groups of people getting Bolshie about Europe and it is a joke of a place. That there are countries in that farce with growing nationalists says something.   :up:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Colonel Rebel
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1279
Break up!
Settle down old fella; soon enough you'll have the rump UK (Wales and England) when Blundering Boris Johnson good and well buggers up the post-Brexit phase. It's a self-inflicted wound and Northern Ireland and Scotland will flee back to the EU. Enjoy rUK lad.

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1280
Guff from a man from nutjobland. Imagine someone from a country like he is from acting superior when so many over there suffer.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Colonel Rebel
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1281
Guff from a man from nutjobland. Imagine someone from a country like he is from acting superior when so many over there suffer.

Gibberish from a Putin slave. Thank you for your recognition that we are large and in charge. *tips fedora*

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1282
Did think you were once bright but you live in a violently dangerous place with a hint of democracy.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Colonel Rebel
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1283
you live in a place with a democracy.
Yes, quite so. Can you say the same in 5 years time when Ireland is reunited and Scotland back in the EU?

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1284
You do not live in a proper democracy of reasonable society so you have been traditionally well brained by daft propaganda. I* am glad not in the EU and that should stay that way including for Scotland. We could not afford not being in the UK. Coming from a nation like yours and the mess it is in and the regular mass killings and riots what a farce trying to look democratic and well versed.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1285
Interesting forecast, Colonel. Is that commonly expected within the UK? Ireland and Scotland rejoining the EU I can see; Scotland has "devolved" quite a bit.. Northern Ireland has enough political baggage to likely get away with it... But will England lump it?
Democracy ain't the easiest form of government, if stability is a primary goal. (Leastways, it hasn't been in the past: ersi keeps harping that I should read the Athenian Constitution!? How long -exactly- did Athenian democracy last?:)
There are some European exemplars but the United States of America is the record holder, hands down. (And the howling Howie's misegenational misinformation not withstanding!:)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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  • Frenzie
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  • Administrator
Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1286
How long -exactly- did Athenian democracy last? :)
There are some European exemplars but the United States of America is the record holder, hands down.
If you start the count of the United States at New Netherland, perhaps.[1] Otherwise Athenian democracy lasted for some 300 years last I checked, so it would seem America still has half a century to go.
But then, the Netherlands only had a short little interruption due to some guy named Napoleon, so do you start counting at 0 in the 1850s or do you regard it as a little blip on the much longer record?

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1287
I'll accept both qualms...:) Seriously, Athens and the U.S. are hardly comparable. As for the Netherland democracy, more than a few learned greatly from it -- first hand! (Thanks, BTW...for both.:)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • ersi
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1288
(Leastways, it hasn't been in the past: ersi keeps harping that I should read the Athenian Constitution!? How long -exactly- did Athenian democracy last?:)
There are some European exemplars but the United States of America is the record holder, hands down.
Now, had you read it, you'd have an idea how long Athenian democracy lasted, and you'd appropriately be less confident about USA.

By the way, have you converted meanwhile into thinking that USA is a democracy? You used to deny it. The constitution still says "Republican form of government", except that the Republican party has embarrassed itself beyond repair.

I recommended the book for sociological and economic insights rather, not for the best or stablest form of government. In my view, economics is woefully incomplete unless it is socioeconomics or politico-economics or at least economic history or history of economic trends and thought. And the Athenian Constitution is very much that. It reports about classes in the population, about the roles of classes, about their economic status, about their changes in status over time, e.g. the rich getting richer and the agricultural class getting extorted, etc. Sometimes the tolerable balance slides out of hand due to degeneration of the democracy, sometimes due to the abuses of a tyrant. However, periodically, the situation gets reset and pacified by land reform, erasure of debts, or redistribution of resources, and these last points are the greatest useful insights - written down conscientiously millennia before Marx or whoever your favourite scapegoat is.

  • Frenzie
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  • Administrator
Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1289
I'll accept both qualms...:) Seriously, Athens and the U.S. are hardly comparable. As for the Netherland democracy, more than a few learned greatly from it -- first hand! (Thanks, BTW...for both.:)
On that note, here's a good paper on the subject: http://rdc1.net/forthcoming/DUTCH6_final_.pdf

  • ersi
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1290
On that note, here's a good paper on the subject: http://rdc1.net/forthcoming/DUTCH6_final_.pdf
Wow, at first I thought I should start blaming the Dutch for what America has turned out to be, but the differences are more interesting than the similarities.

1. Wikipedia says, "The framers of the U.S. Constitution were influenced by the Constitution of the Republic of the United Provinces, as Federalist No. 20, by James Madison, shows.[12] Such influence appears, however, to have been of a negative nature, as Madison describes the Dutch confederacy as exhibiting "Imbecility in the government; discord among the provinces; foreign influence and indignities; a precarious existence in peace, and peculiar calamities from war.""

2. In the Dutch Republic, the provinces remained feudal and the essence of the Union appears to have been a military and political contractual allegiance, similar to the beginnings of Switzerland.[1] In contrast, the US Constitution establishes a host of federal institutions and makes a point of specifying that the states must be republics.

3. The Act of Abjuration (p. 7[2] of the article) explicitly declares away slavery. Instead, slave trade was purely a colonial phenomenon.[3] In contrast, the US founding fathers evidently did not worry much about having institutionalised slavery among themselves.

4. A notable similarity: The principle cuius regio eius religio dissipated apparently without posing much legal quibble. This occurred without ever raising its head again in the Netherlands (or in Europe overall). In USA, however, the anti-establishment protests, movements, conspiracies, etc. involve an increasingly strong religious element enmeshed with the doctrine of US messianic exceptionalism.
Thus the Dutch apparently did not worry very much about the particular form of government. Hanseatic cities were essentially republics, but apparently this form of government was not seen as somehow inherently preferable.
Edit: Page numbers are at the bottom here (as usual), not on top.
Slavery was never much of a thing in Europe after the collapse of Roman Empire. It was replaced by the more overwhelming serfdom, while outright slave trade on the continental Europe occurred exclusively in contact/conflict with Muslim states, having more the nature of human trafficking. Only Byzantium was properly a European slave country.
  • Last Edit: 2021-04-22, 20:58:40 by ersi

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in Europe
Reply #1291
Thanks, Frenzie! (@ersi: later I'll have time to comment...:)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)