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Topic: Invasions East and West (Read 8264 times)

  • Macallan
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Invasions East and West

The brilliant plan in case of a Soviet invasion? Retreat all to Italy, hold the ground there, and wait for American reinforcements.

Wait a minute, you guys ( well, mostly the british and american troops in western .de but still ) were supposed to invade Any Day Now for most of my childhood, not the other way around!
( no, I don't think there was much of a difference in propaganda full-of-shitness on either side of the border )

  • Frenzie
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Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #1
Wait a minute, you guys ( well, mostly the british and american troops in western .de but still ) were supposed to invade Any Day Now for most of my childhood, not the other way around!

Things changed a bit after our economies recovered. Our plan switched to holding the line in West Germany long enough so the American reinforcements could actually ship out en masse in e.g. Antwerp, Rotterdam, and Hamburg. The Soviets meanwhile changed their invasion plans to involve nukes and fallout fodder.

Now Western invasion plans of Eastern Europe--you've got me on the spot there. They never said anything about such a thing to the lower echelons of the army. Plus just like with the Polish plan I linked above, the master plan is probably hidden in some Pentagon basement.

  • ersi
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Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #2
Here in the Nordic countries, Russian invasion plans have always been taken dead seriously. Last year Russia made two fighter jet drills involving simulated attacks straight into Sweden, as if Finland and the Baltic countries were nothing.

Repeat: That's two fighter jet drills last year where the scenario involved straight attack on Sweden from a military base near St. Petersburg. At the first attack Swedes didn't react in any manner to Russian fighter jets heading towards Gotland (or Stockholm - they are roughly on the same line when viewed from St. Peterburg). Baltic countries are protected by 2 (two!) NATO fighter jets in Lithuania. Those reacted, but got their arses up only when Russian fighters had already returned to Russian airspace.

At the second Russian drill Swedes managed to react. Sweden and Finland are not NATO members. The debate on joining is ongoing.

True story http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=83&artikel=5512029
http://www.postimees.ee/1210258/ajaleht-vene-sojalennukite-oppus-ulatus-rootsi-piirini

  • Macallan
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Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #3
That remark in the (now) OP was mostly triggered by a news item I read a while ago ( can't remember where, it's been years ago, so add a good teaspoon of salt ) - supposedly, a few years after the end of the Soviet Union, it emerged that they really had no interest whatsoever in a war with the US or its allies, and didn't have for decades ( for various reasons, probably pretty close to those given by the soviet ambassador in Dr. Strangelove ), but were themselves convinced that the Americans were just waiting for a sign of weakness. Much to the surprise of the other side.
Of course that didn't keep (either one of) them from messing with other countries where they thought they could get away with it.

  • Frenzie
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Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #4
Not to mention the military industrial complex had much to gain from overplaying the threat.

  • ersi
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Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #5

Not to mention the military industrial complex had much to gain from overplaying the threat.
The military-industrial complex is not a separate institution from the government. It's as if a party or a club with members in all important branches of the government. Think of it as "hawks" versus "doves". Or, if you like conspiracy theories, the military industrial complex is like Freemasons with their secret agenda and backdoor handshakes, while the overwhelming majority is ignorant or negligent of where the situation is being steered, finding out about things only when it's too late.

In any scenario, there is always a group gaining, but it's not always the same group. The only group that is always gaining is the sleaziest political careerists who betray all values at any change of wind, but they betray even each other, so they are not a particularly cohesive group. They are like a heap of sand, where no particle has any regard for the heap.

During the cold war, the world was evidently bi-polar, with the United States and Soviet Union playing as power centres against each other. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the world politics has been unipolar, with the United States calling all the shots, putting the military bases right next door from Russia, messing and invading at will anywhere in the world. Clinton sent rockets to some African countries and airplanes to Kosovo and Serbia. Bush invaded countries surrounding Iran. All for flimsy reasons, with unclear or obviously false aims, and with adverse outcomes. All other countries have simply watched this happening. This is a unipolar world.

I live next door from Russia, and here's a sense of Russia waiting for another chance to become a world power again, equal to EU and China, if not more. The likely outlook for the countries between Russia and the biggies of EU is that our independence will be sold at a crisis very cheaply and dishonourably without any war or struggle. The politicians here are intensely competing with each other in who has the least backbone, exactly as dictated from Brussels. For Brussels, this enables "dialogue" with Russia, but for the population here, this creates a strong sense of estrangement from and illegitimacy of the power. Any passerby can fill in the power vacuum and take over the strings of the puppets. The closest passerby is Russia.

  • mjmsprt40
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  • undocumented space alien
Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #6
Didn't we have a movie about that sort of thing a few decades back? A Soviet submarine runs aground off of the East Coast, the sub's crew goes ashore to find a powerful enough boat that they can steal and drag off the sub, in the process of course they have to suppress efforts by the local population to notify authorities that Soviet "troops" are on American soil and so on and so on---. In the movie, many of the sailors were as terrified of war breaking out as the most pacifist American could be, one sailor even stating that he didn't want to hate anybody.

Eventually, the sub gets freed (high tide will do that, you know) then tries to get the crew back together, in the process nearly causing an international incident that is only averted by both American and Soviets joining forces to protect the sub until it gets to deep water where it can submerge.

"The Russians Are Coming". A bit strange in today's age, but still maybe worth looking at. It gives you a window into the paranoia that gripped both sides during the Cold War.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

  • jax
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Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #7
"The Russians are coming", or russerne kommer, was a part of Norwegian Cold War psyche as well. It was even turned into a song,


The Norwegian game plan in case of a Soviet invasion was to let nature do the work for them, blowing up all tunnels and bridges from North to South. A Norwegian version of Tora Bora mountain complex nearby the city of Tromsø was a particularly hard defence. The Russian plan was to nuke it, which might take care of the defenders or not (and/or start a nuclear war if one wasn't already happening), but which would also make an impassable mountain complex into a radioactive impassable mountain complex. The alternative would be to bypass Norway and go south through the North Swedish marshes. Not only would that expose them to torture by mosquitoes, but it would be no easy terrain either, and well-defended. (What every Norwegian with military connection seemed to know, but somehow the Swedes were ignorant of, was that Sweden wasn't neutral, but a de facto NATO member in war time.)

Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #8
Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the world politics has been unipolar, with the United States calling all the shots

Until Kim Jong Un came on the scene.

Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #9
Didn't we have a movie about that sort of thing a few decades back? A Soviet submarine runs aground off of the East Coast


  • string
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Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #10
Here in the Nordic countries, Russian invasion plans have always been taken dead seriously.
Not entirely, one Danish Politician, Morgens Glistrup, announced his party's policy on national defence by a suggestion to replace the entire department of defence with an answering machine with the recorded message "we surrender" in Russian. . Having claimed (a popular concept this in Denmark) that he paid zero percent tax on his large income, he was jailed after an investigation but later became a tax consultant; a folk hero with a sense of humour wethinksl.

Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #11
he paid zero percent tax on his large income, he was jailed after an investigation but later became a tax consultant; a folk hero with a sense of humour wethinksl.

I have a Danish hero, too.

  • ersi
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Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #12

Didn't we have a movie about that sort of thing a few decades back?

Russian submarines have visited Sweden's coast during Cold War, in plain sight of people. Sweden has kept very low profile about it in an attempt to seem neutral. Or being total chicken.


(What every Norwegian with military connection seemed to know, but somehow the Swedes were ignorant of, was that Sweden wasn't neutral, but a de facto NATO member in war time.)
Officially Swedes deny this, but brighter ones among them know that the game of neutrality that they are playing has been a double-faced game for along while now. For example, they have their own war industry (Saab AB) that routinely bribes other countries to buy its crappy products in order to keep itself going. In this connection, South Africa has figured in the news historically and Switzerland is a current story.


Here in the Nordic countries, Russian invasion plans have always been taken dead seriously.
Not entirely, one Danish Politician, Morgens Glistrup, announced his party's policy on national defence by a suggestion to replace the entire department of defence with an answering machine with the recorded message "we surrender" in Russian. . Having claimed (a popular concept this in Denmark) that he paid zero percent tax on his large income, he was jailed after an investigation but later became a tax consultant; a folk hero with a sense of humour wethinksl.

This kind of sense of humour is an example of what I mean by dead serious. Here we have people saying things like: "Let's make Brussels, Moscow, and Central Africa compete to provide the most cost-effective government services for us, so we can abolish our own unnecessarily expensive and non-customer-friendly government..." Dead serious, you see.

  • Belfrager
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Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #13
Invasions East and West are irrelevant, the only thing that matters for distinguish civilization from barbarian is the South resistance against northerners.
A matter of attitude.

  • ersi
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Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #14

Invasions East and West are irrelevant, the only thing that matters for distinguish civilization from barbarian is the South resistance against northerners.
Like, when Rome expands and conquers, this greatly benefits the world, but when Rome is attacked, this is tragic and barbaric. Right?

  • Belfrager
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Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #15
Like, when Rome expands and conquers, this greatly benefits the world, but when Rome is attacked, this is tragic and barbaric. Right?

You got it. That's the spirit. :)
A matter of attitude.

Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #16
@ersi

Bel probably refers to the Holy Roman Empire :D


Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #17
South is here. Ask tt92.

  • Macallan
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Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #18

Bel probably refers to the Holy Roman Empire :D

Neither holy, nor roman or an empire?

Whenever I see that thing or a variant of it this pops up in my head:
Du häßlicher Vogel, wirst du einst
Mir in die Hände fallen;
So rupfe ich dir die Federn aus
Und hacke dir ab die Krallen.

  • Frenzie
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Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #19
That reminds me of the amazingly morbid French children's song:

Le coq est mort, le coq est mort,
le coq est mort, le coq est mort.
Il ne dira plus cocodi, cocoda,
il ne dira plus cocodi, cocoda,
coco coco coco cocodi, cocoda.

(although I seem to recall another refrain about plucking the bird and such)

  • Belfrager
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Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #20
Le coq est mort, le coq est mort,le coq est mort, le coq est mort.Il ne dira plus cocodi, cocoda,il ne dira plus cocodi, cocoda,coco coco coco cocodi, cocoda.

I like that, useful to teach children what animals are for...
A matter of attitude.

  • tt92
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Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #21



Whenever I see that thing or a variant of it this pops up in my head:
Du häßlicher Vogel, wirst du einst
Mir in die Hände fallen;
So rupfe ich dir die Federn aus
Und hacke dir ab die Krallen.


Me too!
I wonder what it means.

  • ersi
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Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #22

(although I seem to recall another refrain about plucking the bird and such)

Alouette, je te plumerai etc. This one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM0UyNqrS0o

  • Frenzie
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Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #23
Alouette, je te plumerai etc. This one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM0UyNqrS0o

Et alors, j'ai mélangé deux chansons! Merci beaucoup.

  • Belfrager
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Re: Invasions East and West
Reply #24
Beautiful, everybody speaks French.
What are we waiting for declaring it the official DnD language? :)
A matter of attitude.