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Topic: Tripe about Ukraine (Read 140995 times)

  • rjhowie
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Tripe about Ukraine
I watched that Obama on television going on about rights and stuff in Ukraine and how peaceful protestors should be allowed freedom to protest. Eh? Peaceful protesters can someone find them.Kind of funny when one remembers how the anti-Wall Street folk were treated. Anyway he along with the EEC are sticking their noses into a situation they should keep well out of. Time after time we have been media brained into a one sided report and interviews. Ukraine had an election and produced a President and there he stays until the next one. He has in fact bent over backwards and too much as it happens for all the good it did him. Doesn't Obama and the EEC leaders have sponges for brains? There are TWO SIDES BUT SOMEHOW THAT IS IGNORED. When the first report came out about deaths there was deliberately no mention that almost half were policemen. Molotov cocktails, firing  bricks and anything that hands can lay on at the officers. One policeman was actually beaten to a death pulp my the mob . And mob is what they are. They yak about Ukraine then attack and burn government buildings so how does that help any future governemnt. Neither can an elected man be expected to give up by terror gangs on the street.

It is none of America's business nor the EEC interfering politicians business to shout on about Ukraine's internal affairs. Now talk about sanctions? Can we remind everyone that one half of the country does not want to be in the EEC. And anyway what financial advantage is there in it? No-one has said that. There are two sides and if the terror gangs on Kiev streets are not careful there will be 2 Ukraines. Fair reporting is well overdue instead of the one-sided lynch mob mentality in DC and Brussels.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Belfrager
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #850
In completely unrelated news, IMF agrees $17.5bn reform programme for Ukraine.

Completely unrelated news are always important... :)
We'll see if Putin plays the game. Expensive poker but cheaper than Greece and many other places. Ukraine worths more, much more.
(supposing that billion is the irritating American billion, meaning a thousand millions, not a real billion - a million of millions)
  • Last Edit: 2015-02-12, 21:41:22 by Belfrager
A matter of attitude.

  • krake
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #851

In completely unrelated news, IMF agrees $17.5bn reform programme for Ukraine.

To be more precise the Ukraine will receive $ 40bn for its reform programme/war. The difference of $ 22,5bn has to be shouldered by Europe.

  • rjhowie
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #852
The IMF is on board now for dishing out billions and it will be interesting to see where that goes in practice due to the Kiev corruption. Wages are now low and tightness on pensions, welfare, heating, cost of food and living along with just about everything else. I doubt too whether the Ukrainian Army has any deep confidence either.  The country is in a ramshackle state by it's own hands and is doing a Greece and look how that place dealt with debts. Even when Russia was giving them discounted power others didn't get they were moaning.One news report was curious as to why Kiev was not helping all this innocent civilians being wounded and killed,stopping doctor and nurses pay, etc. Even water and power being cut to the uninvolved civilians. However they cannot even look after themselves.

My Ukrainian friend has informed me the place was never one country with so many different groups and traditions. Kiev did the Kiev and totally ignored those in the East then when the East protested the army rumbled.  out. This could all have been avoided if Kiev hadn't been so stupid in deleting the Russian language from a shared State matter (especially with so many speaking it) or ignoring it's tradtions. The western part of the country were only out for themselves and looking to the West for handouts due to their own incompetence and corruption.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ersi
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #853
@krake
You like to debunk Western media reporting on Ukraine. Have your Russian friends spoken about this detail too? 
Minsk Agreement 2.0. Moscow de facto recognized that Russian Troops are fighting against Ukraine

The Minsk agreement specify some weaponry that are to be withdrawn. Among them is something called Tornado-S.

Quote

MLRS Tornado-S (9A52-4 Tornado) is Russia's newest universal multiple rocket launcher.... Currently the sole operator is Russian Ground Forces.

Meaning, the weaponry cited in Minsk agreement belongs to Russian army. The fact that Minsk agreement cites it means that it is used by fighters in Ukraine. Taken literally, the fighters in Ukraine are Russian soldiers.

The same detail was also mentioned by Finnish security experts on Friday.

  • rjhowie
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #854
No they are not Russian soldiers. What I have said is that there will be Russian ex-military volunteering. I watched Frenchmen being interviewed who are fighting for the rebels. That there is a mass invasion by the Russian Army is a load of cobblers and follows the old stock adage of repeating the same thing long enough to become standard.

What about the cluster bombs used by the Ukrainian Army, eh?? Most sensible countries have banned those terrible types of bombs so why no condemnation? Or the films a while back of what looked awfully like phosphorous bombing? Any nation that does not acept the US's idea of democracy (snigger) or the West's way of doing things can expect to be hounded and lied about. Didn't we have a US fleet hovering about near China but that doesn't count? Talk about odd mindsets.

Although i for a long time have been of the view that Ukraine should be Federal because of the different bakcgrounds and groups living there i think it almost deserves losing the two eastern provinces. The "revolution" in Kiev was NOT universal and indeed the folk in the east not even consulted. Then they had their language removed as an official State one and thought the people there would just accept their less than inclusive overthrow of a legitimate government. Russia has a right to be concerned the way the millions of Russian speakers and traditionals were treated after all as i have well said it is okay for America to have hundreds of bases everywhere to "guard it's interests." What that means is the corporate string pullers.

So it was okay for the West Ukrainian lot to have a one-sided "revolution" then treat the East like rubbish? Russia has NEVER demanded the 2 regional East places at any time but they are sure as Hell right to be concerned the way people there were treated. Ukraine has been and is a damn mess and continue being so. The warfare has been fanatically nationalist and the East treated like rubbish. Kiev created this civil war and deserve to lose it. To give Kiev all that money in loans is a big, big mistake in such a corrupt place. It is too divided a country and unfortunately due to the head bangers in Kiev they will lose another bit and deserve too. That we in the West slavishly follow any lie that comes out of Kiev is a disgrace, immoral and not principled.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #855
What I have said is that there will be Russian ex-military volunteering.

In tanks that are only deployed by the Russian military? See the other thread for details. At this point, it's difficult to deny Russian troops and weapons in the conflict.


Ukraine has been and is a damn mess and continue being so.

Of course it is, as long as Russia continues its destablisation of the country. Putin talks peace, but continues egging on the conflict by supplying equipment and most likely personnel to the seperatists. Do this to any country in the world and watch the economy and social order collapse and radical nationalist to outright neo-nazi forces rise.

  • rjhowie
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #856
It isn't Russia that is destabilising Ukraine it is that country itself!

They had street battles and overthrew a legitimate government. Not the best government but properly elected. Tell me when Kiev took in the East in what it was going to do or did? You cannot. Kiev supports the Right Sector so as you are so full of the wonderful Kiev regime that means you too support the Nazis of that Right mob. The west of Ukraine has always leaned west including WW2 when it supprted the Nazis and had it's own SS and celebrate that annually (!). The East was always leaning Russian hence the large numbers of speakers of that tongue. That your champion buffoon, McCain went out to support a dodgy and immoral lot shows how you lot are brain drilled. Anything that McCain is into is dodgy and stupid. Because of deep cultural and indeed racial distinctions (there is in fact no national Ukraine it is made up of old tribal histories).

Instead of trying to bridge things you are so deep routed into the usual imperialistic mode you people have been brought up with you cannot see that. Befroe that "Revolution" because of the numbers of Russian speakers that language was a shared national matter which the new regime threw out the damn window. On top of that in the East with so many Russian speakers that is where the heavy industry is based so naturally they got miffed there along with no consultation in the coup so what do you think the East is going to do just be treated as puppets?

Ot is nothing to do with NATO nor the EU but being led by the great pretender country a negative direction has been taken in a country that has been a mess for years and still is. Now your mindsets have been lulled into threats to the Baltic States! Now that is funny as the other week the foreign minister of Latvia (That is a Baltic State dear Yank) has come out and said directly the opposite. Indeed he made it plain that his country does NOT see Russia as a threat at all so answer that obne sonny.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ersi
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #857

Quote
Attention! In connection with the unstable geopolitical situation, we don't have Americano coffee. Ask for Crimean coffee.


  • rjhowie
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #858
 :D
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Belfrager
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #859
People from Ukraine that have migrated to here, rebuilt their lives and returned to Ukraine are returning again.
If that matters for anyone of you.
A matter of attitude.

  • rjhowie
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #860
Ukraine is completely to blame for what happened in their own country. They had a history of supporting the Nzis in the West of the country hence their annual commemorations of their war time lader and the Ukrainians who fought in the SS. Kiev when it started that shambles in their city did not care a damn for the whole country because they totally ignored the 2 eastern provinces. They were never spoken to asked if they wanted involved in the coup and became a target foe the new regime. All the more stunning as so much of the industry is in the east.Crimea is back where it always wanted to be and the civil war did not need to happen if Kiev had used some more sense rather than militancy.

Crimea and the eastern conclave are gone for good and will never be back and the country could have remained as one but for the bias and stupidity of Kiev.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ersi
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #861
Крымский федеральный округ ликвидирован указом президента

When Crimea was first annexed, Putin created "Crimean federal okrug", a region comprising just Crimea. Federal okrugs themselves are Putin's invention when the governors of the federal subjects (the administrative entities that make up Russian Federation) had begun behaving too independently (under Yeltsin) and there was no clear idea what Russian Federation was supposed to be. So Putin created federal okrugs which group together federal subjects whose governors became answerable to certain agents of the federal okrugs so there would be some accountability. That's Russian idea of federation.

Where was I? Ah, right, Crimea was its own federal okrug at first, but this federal okrug is dropped as of today. Instead, Crimea now belongs to Southern federal okrug along with places like Krasnodar, Rostov-na-Donu and Astrakhan. A small sign that Crimea's status is being administratively normalised, in other words.


And this one is related. I believe it Google translates well enough.

Google вернет российские названия на карту Крыма после предупреждения Минкомсвязи о возможных сложностях с ведением бизнеса в РФ
  • Last Edit: 2016-07-28, 18:14:11 by ersi

  • rjhowie
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #862
And it is now where the vast majority of Crimean people want to be.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ersi
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #863
Ukraine has managed to block Russia's participation in Eurovision this year
Russian broadcaster Channel One will not broadcast the Eurovision Song Contest next month because the country's singer has been barred from host country Ukraine.

Russia's decision removes any chance of it competing this year, the European Broadcasting Union (EBU) said.
Ukraine is refusing to allow Julia Samoilova to perform at Eurovision because she has visited Crimea, the peninsula seized by Russia in 2014.

The EBU has condemned the ban.

It says Ukraine is undermining the non-political nature of the contest.

  • krake
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #864
The BBC is using the word "seized" for Crimeans choosing per referendum to leave the Ukraine and be part of the Russian Federation. :)

  • ersi
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #865
It was seized before the referendum. Duh.

  • krake
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #866
It was seized before the referendum. Duh.
For sure. :)   After the referendum it got annexed. :lol:

  • rjhowie
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #867
Utter duff there from you ersi and a propagandist system woudl have delights in your mindset. May I again laddie remind you that (groanj) Ukraine  had Crimea dumped into it decades ago by the dictatorial USSR and not something the inhabitants would have been happy about and why it is so Russia leaning down there. They had a referendum as you have been told but oh that doesn't count because the people wanted back where they felt happier - namely Russia. If a referendum is something in the mindset of America led West threat is somehow fine but outside of that automatically illegal. The same West was so keen on the Kosovo referendum and really supporting the Kosovo Liberation Army funded by drug money.

May I also do another reminder that Ukraine was defrauding Russia out of oodles of money for power supplies is as corrupt as hell, financially a mess and politically a shambles all of which the West does an ignoring of. The people in Crimea were right to have a vote and get out of a hell hole. So a referendum is somehow un-principled but a country that is run as a total shambles is??
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ersi
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #868
May I remind you that invasion preceded the referendum. It was referendum at gunpoint. Russia does those often enough so that I am used to them. You evidently are not.

Crimea didn't always belong to Russia. Crimea was conquered from Crimean Tatars some 230 years ago. You may want to check up how things have been going for them after the annexation.

  • krake
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #869
May I remind you that invasion preceded the referendum.
A peaceful 'invasion' that nobody noticed and without firing a single shot.
Imagine George W. Bush would have mastered such an invasion of Iraq. Wonder if you can?

It was referendum at gunpoint.
Parroting transatlantic propaganda narratives won't change the facts. :)

Armed patrols (which btw were welcomed by Crimeans) only made sure that the referendum takes its cource in a peaceful manner.
Western monitors have been invited. No official delegations were sent because it was evident how Crimeans will vote and that outcome didn't fit Western agenda.
 Inofficial monitors from several countries confirmed the fairness of the referendum.

Crimeans enjoying for being 'invaded' and 'annexed'


  • ersi
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #870
May I remind you that invasion preceded the referendum.
A peaceful 'invasion' that nobody noticed and without firing a single shot.
You neglect the presence of the Russian naval base in Crimea, the biggest military base that Russia has. And you of course didn't notice at all the war that ensued.

It was referendum at gunpoint.
Parroting transatlantic propaganda narratives won't change the facts. :)
Facts such as?

Armed patrols (which btw were welcomed by Crimeans) only made sure that the referendum takes its cource in a peaceful manner.
Armed patrols that held the Crimean parliament hostage for the entire time of the transition. If everything was peaceful, why would there be armed patrols? And why weren't they Ukrainian patrols, if there was no invasion?

Western monitors have been invited. No official delegations were sent because it was evident how Crimeans will vote and that outcome didn't fit Western agenda. Inofficial monitors from several countries confirmed the fairness of the referendum.
In the context of an invasion, you send official monitors to oversee a referendum only if you think the invasion is okay. That's ordinary diplomacy.

Crimeans enjoying for being 'invaded' and 'annexed'


This is just prior to the referendum. Would this poster be possible in the country of Ukraine without any Russian invasion?

  • krake
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #871
You neglect the presence of the Russian naval base in Crimea, the biggest military base that Russia has.
So by invasion you mean troops which don't have to invade anything since they are already there for many years. :)

It was referendum at gunpoint.
Parroting transatlantic propaganda narratives won't change the facts. :)
Facts such as?
People did vote as they wished to. Nobody was threatened in any way.

Armed patrols (which btw were welcomed by Crimeans) only made sure that the referendum takes its cource in a peaceful manner.
Armed patrols that held the Crimean parliament hostage for the entire time of the transition.
I'm not aware of Ukrainian parliamentarians being kept hostage by military forces during the whole transition.
Be so kind and give some sources (preferable in English since I don't speak Russian).

If everything was peaceful, why would there be armed patrols? And why weren't they Ukrainian patrols, if there was no invasion?
Are you kidding me? The neo-nazi pack in Kiev wouldn't had allowed a referendum to begin with.
Instead of a peaceful referendum we would have witnessed a carnage in Crimea too.

In the context of an invasion, you send official monitors to oversee a referendum only if you think the invasion is okay. That's ordinary diplomacy.
I see. Very instructive from your part teaching ordinary diplomacy.
As a conclusion, there are illegal 'invasions' like that of Crimea and invasions like that of Iraq which are okay.

  • ersi
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #872
Be so kind and give some sources (preferable in English since I don't speak Russian).
Well, then you're out of luck and at the mercy of Wikipedia. The most relevant bit on the (current) page is this,
On 27 February, Russian special forces [105] seized the building of the Supreme Council of Crimea and the building of the Council of Ministers in Simferopol.[106][107] Russian flags were raised over these buildings,[108] and barricades were erected outside them.[109] Whilst the "little green men" were occupying the Crimean parliament building, the parliament held an emergency session.[110][111] It voted to terminate the Crimean government, and replace Prime Minister Anatolii Mohyliov with Sergey Aksyonov.[112] Aksyonov belonged to the Russian Unity party, which received 4% of the vote in the last election.[111] According to the Constitution of Ukraine, the Prime Minister of Crimea is appointed by the Supreme Council of Crimea in consultation with the President of Ukraine.[113][114] Both Aksyonov and speaker Vladimir Konstantinov stated that they viewed Viktor Yanukovych as the de jure president of Ukraine, through whom they were able to ask Russia for assistance.[115]

The parliament also voted to hold a referendum on greater autonomy on 25 May. The troops had cut all of the building's communications, and took MPs' phones as they entered.[110][111] No independent journalists were allowed inside the building while the votes were taking place.[111] Some MPs said they were being threatened and that votes were cast for them and other MPs, even though they were not in the chamber.[111]

[...]

On 27 February, following the takeover of its building by Russian special forces, the Supreme Council of Crimea voted to hold a referendum on 25 May, with the initial question as to whether Crimea should upgrade its autonomy within Ukraine.[151] The referendum date was later moved from 25 May to 30 March.[152] 

[...]

On 6 March, the Supreme Council moved the referendum date to 16 March and changed its scope to ask a new question: whether Crimea should accede to Russia or restore the 1992 constitution within Ukraine, which the Ukrainian government had previously invalidated. This referendum, unlike one announced earlier, contained no option to maintain the status quo of governance under the 1998 constitution.[157] [the last source is VOA, so better see http://www.interfax.ru/world/363143 ]
About half of the primary sources there are in English, so you will of course dismiss them as Western propaganda. I followed these events as they occurred via Russian and Finnish media. I call it referendum at gunpoint because I know it was.

I'll take you more seriously on Russian affairs as soon as you learn Russian. Here http://www.interfax.ru/story/92
  • Last Edit: 2017-04-15, 17:34:06 by ersi

  • krake
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #873
Be so kind and give some sources (preferable in English since I don't speak Russian).
Well, then you're out of luck and at the mercy of Wikipedia. The most relevant bit on the (current) page is ...
Thanks for confirming that no parlamentarian was held hostage at all - not before, during or after the transition. :)

  • ersi
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Re: Tripe about Ukraine
Reply #874
The sources are now at your fingertips, whenever you decide to wisen up. Take your time.