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Topic: What's Going on in the Americas? (Read 171167 times)

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
What's Going on in the Americas?
There are a number of threads from the Old World, any news from the New? Anything American goes.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1175
He won't, of course, Smiley... Malicious malice remains a bulwark against reason for more than a few. (Are you reading this, RJ? :) )

@ersi: That you'd display such ignorance in -so to speak- public makes me worry for you. I hope whatever ails you abates.
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • ersi
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1176
Blake? You mean the guy who was shot eight times in the back by a rookie officer while the other policemen did not fire a shot? Maybe because the situation did not merit it?!

As said, inexcusable. Why the rush to prove my point?

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1177
When dealing with a "fresh" news  story, it is reasonable to wait for the actual details to come out. What you read early on (and, as you well know, if you pay attention, what you see -- specially on cellphone videos) is a small part of what occurred... I can understand believing the first reports you're likely to have found, if you're that kind of person.
But the vitriol in your post (...your point, I take it) is indicative of a deep-seated animus.

BTW: The officer who shot Blake had seven years on the force -- not quite a rookie, eh? From where did you get that he fired eight shots?
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • ersi
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1178
When dealing with a "fresh" news  story, it is reasonable to wait for the actual details to come out. What you read early on (and, as you well know, if you pay attention, what you see -- specially on cellphone videos) is a small part of what occurred... I can understand believing the first reports you're likely to have found, if you're that kind of person.
Clearly you are that kind of person, because you picked it up first. I comment on it because you do.

But the vitriol in your post (...your point, I take it) is indicative of a deep-seated animus.
Nobody can ever beat SF's animus. His hatred of people is astonishingly deep-seated and at the same time he presents himself as a proud trainer of law enforcement. If law enforcement in USA indeed needs private tutoring from gun-mad irrationalists, it explains a lot, it really does.
BTW: The officer who shot Blake had seven years on the force -- not quite a rookie, eh?
If after seven years he still behaves like a rookie, it doesn't improve things for him. Quite the opposite.

From where did you get that he fired eight shots?
It's been reported from Blake's father ("eight holes") who got to know about it from the hospital.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1179
Eight holes, seven rounds fired... Pretty good shootin'! (I say it, so SF doesn't have to! :) )

I began commenting on this incident because both our national news and some folks here had already begun...the modern "dance".
(If you're interested, ersi, you can hear -or read- a recent interview with a guy who lives four blocks from the federal courthouse in Portland, where most of the rioting has taken place: https://www.dailysignal.com/2020/09/01/he-went-to-the-scene-of-the-shooting-in-portland-heres-what-he-saw/?utm_source=TDS_Email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=MorningBell&mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiWWpSbU5XTmxaakJpTW1NMCIsInQiOiIyaVJkQjRFMmVObTV0dGRKM0tJSkVOblhTZHZuV3pLelQxZHk0UGxDWVhWUWc5YnZsam5GazBacWFcL3pQMTRkc1lQa3pCN1wvSkFrMUhYUE4yYkRKQzIxN3R5WWs4dFwvejRaK3VkOTViVUpxVVVIWXZieFBPWGljT1NscWFMOHp6VyJ9 ) He's an ex-Marine, and he may be black... How many prejudices you have, I don't know.

Is SmileyFaze really full of animus? For whom? (Let me check...) Hm. So you say "His hatred of people is astonishingly deep-seated and at the same time he presents himself as a proud trainer of law enforcement" and call him a "gun-mad irrationalist".
Well, he's shared some of his qualifications that buttress his opinions... (I take him at his word; and, often, he understands things that most people don't.) Have you, ersi, ever been a policeman or a soldier? Have you any actual experience that would give you insight into the nature of such jobs and the nature and discipline of the people who do them?

(Smiley, sorry for jumping in like that... I know you can -ahem!- defend yourself. But it gives me the chance to make amends:  Read Turtledove's The Last Article!)
  • Last Edit: 2020-09-01, 10:42:18 by OakdaleFTL
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1180
There will of course be exceptions regarding incompetent or utterly impossible police in the USA but in routin terms incompetent is a general practice in a land full of gun clowns.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1181
As always,RJ, you make an excellent point a bleating sound, not unlike your ovine kin over the pond...
(Did you read Turtledove's story about Nehru and Gandhi?)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • jax
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1182

  • ersi
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1183
Eight holes, seven rounds fired... Pretty good shootin'! (I say it, so SF doesn't have to! :) )
Some count seven, some count eight. This makes a difference for officer Back-Shooter in what way?

Well, he's shared some of his qualifications that buttress his opinions... (I take him at his word; and, often, he understands things that most people don't.)
His qualifications as a trainer of policemen in USA, does it support the way the policemen of USA keep failing with guns? It may not be particularly the fault of SF's valiant attempts at training, but it is the fault of the system, and SF is both a part of and a supporter of the system.

And here is a funny thing. Policemen are a stock example of state/govt authority. SF is pro all-out-armed-and-shooting police. Yet, as a gun irrationalist, he is also anti-govt close to the point of sov-cit. How to resolve this apparent inconsistency? What exactly does he "understand" that most people don't?

(Smiley, sorry for jumping in like that... I know you can -ahem!- defend yourself.
No, he can't. He needs you to decipher the flat self-contradictory propaganda he spouts. I maintain there is no making sense of it, but you can keep trying. It leads nowhere, but at least it's amusing when you do it. When he does it, there is nothing to respond to, because he is only fighting his own ghosts.
  • Last Edit: 2020-09-06, 10:29:17 by ersi

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1184
Perhaps you'd consider this, ersi:
Remember way back when the California border with Mexico was a focus of illegal immigrant crossings ("coyotes" and kids, for the sex slave market, and drug traffickers...as well as migrants looking to work in the States or wanting to settle here). SF offered to arm and bring a crew to our border to "take care of the problem?
Do you recall that I cautioned him, that lots of us in California have guns, too, and he'd be wise not to interfere in other peoples' business?!
That was my immediate reaction then; I still feel the same. And I think illegal immigration, drug and human trafficking, and the rest, remain a problem for California (and many other states!) that can only be solved by reasonable and reasonably clear immigration laws here, and cooperation with the governments of Mexico and a choice few of those Central American countries from whence many illegals come...
(I'm sure I told you how dismayed I was -when trying to re-connect with my first elementary school, the James Otis?- to find not just that an old Italian and Irish "island" was now inhabited by "Hispanics" but that the even then growing presence of MS-13 was taking its toll on everyone!?)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • ersi
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1185
In what way should I consider this?

I happen to recall that California and Texas and everything in between used to be Mexico up to 1845. So Hispanics used to inhabit those areas, as have Native Americans, while the falsely-named "Americans" are recent immigrants there.

Another issue is the way the USA register voters for each elections, occasionally managing to exclude a significant portion of actual citizens, demonstrating that your registration of own citizens is defective, or at least that not all citizens have some self-evident rights, such as the right to vote. (Over here we have *invitation to vote* instead of voter registration.)

Having no proper registry for own citizens, "immigration laws" cannot work or solve anything. Registering own citizens properly should be basic. The prevalent mood in the USA seems to be that things must remain as they are - own citizens should have the "liberty" of being free from ID cards.

Of course immigration is a problem, but there is no point of whining about it when you stubbornly refuse solutions. And when you fail to recognise that you are recent immigrants yourself.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1186
I happen to recall that California and Texas and everything in between used to be Mexico up to 1845. So Hispanics used to inhabit those areas, as have Native Americans, while the falsely-named "Americans" are recent immigrants there.
Mexico belonged to Spain, then France... The indigenous people were badly treated by both, and after "independence" badly treated by the majority that claimed Spanish ancestry.
Hispanics never did inhabit Noodle Island (East Boston) until the 1980s.
My father's family was part of the Yorkshire Immigration, in the 1770s, but that was to the Maritime provinces of Canada; and they were Tories!
The first "Americans" were not immigrants. They were colonists. After the colonies were established, immigration -properly called- began. (German and Irish and Scots, most notably.) Do you seriously contend that, unless one can trace their origins to the land they inhabit back to the last ice age, their sovereignty has no legitimacy? :)
(If so, I think you're being overly restrictive! Where are the civil rights organizations bemoaning the plight of the Neanderthals?)

About voter registration:
If your country shared a large border with another poorer one whose culture was in many ways at odds with yours, you'd take citizenship more seriously! Since the Democrats are dead set against any determination of how many actual citizens we have... And -because we've never changed it- our representatives (members of the lower house of our congress), that is, their numbers, are determined by population alone; thence their state's share of remittance from the federal purse. For populous Democrat-controlled states, this is ideal: The influence of the voting public is diluted, the power of the pols is inflated!
You say we "occasionally manage" to disenfranchise large numbers of "actual citizens". You can't spend the rest of your life viewing the world around you from a comfy perch in your WayBack Machine, ersi... Since the mid-1960s, the only people who don't vote are those who choose not to, or non-citizens.

Registering own citizens properly should be basic. The prevalent mood in the USA seems to be that things must remain as they are - own citizens should have the "liberty" of being free from ID cards.
I'm confused: What is your point, since you both decry ID cards but insist a rational state must "register" its citizens?
Help me out here. :)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • ersi
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1187
Do you seriously contend that, unless one can trace their origins to the land they inhabit back to the last ice age, their sovereignty has no legitimacy? :)
Pragmatically, legitimacy is a sliding continuum. It's not that you have no legitimacy. Rather, you pretend that you have more legitimacy (namely all of it while Hispanics supposedly have none of it) but you don't.

About voter registration:
If your country shared a large border with another poorer one whose culture was in many ways at odds with yours, you'd take citizenship more seriously!
Oh man. After all these years, you still have not taken a look at the map. If you feel threatened by Mexico (why not by territorially far bigger Canada?), then Estonia absolutely must feel threatened by Russia.

And yes, Estonian law does take citizenship very seriously, by restricting dual citizenship - if you want to become a citizen of Estonia, you are supposed to give up what other citizenships you have. In practice, there is also a corrupt "honorary" citizenship in place and some other abused exceptions.

Since the Democrats are dead set against any determination of how many actual citizens we have...
False of course. It's both of the parties, and the Republicans more so than the Democrats.

You say we "occasionally manage" to disenfranchise large numbers of "actual citizens". You can't spend the rest of your life viewing the world around you from a comfy perch in your WayBack Machine, ersi... Since the mid-1960s, the only people who don't vote are those who choose not to, or non-citizens.
This is neither from the 60's nor from WayBack Machine. It's this year, ongoing https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/article245437420.html

I'm confused: What is your point, since you both decry ID cards but insist a rational state must "register" its citizens?
Help me out here. :)
Perhaps it helps when you realise that I don't decry ID cards. Where did you get the idea that I do?

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1188
The prevalent mood in the USA seems to be that things must remain as they are - own citizens should have the "liberty" of being free from ID cards.
I'd thought the Democrats' problem with voter ID laws -that they're discriminatory- was what you meant by "hav[ing] the liberty of being free from ID cards"...
 You say "the Republicans more so than the Democrats" don't want to determine how many citizens reside here. How do you support this counter-factual claim?
Oh man. After all these years, you still have not taken a look at the map. If you feel threatened by Mexico (why not by territorially far bigger Canada?), then Estonia absolutely must feel threatened by Russia.
We don't "feel threatened" by what we see on the map; it's the actual numbers of migrants of all stripes actually crossing those borders that is worrisome. (There's never been a mass migration from Canada to the U.S.; nor from the U.S. to Canada. --My family is an exception: Many have crossed both ways fairly often!)

I read the article in the Miami Herald...
Quote
After calculating the number of voters who had died, had addresses that the Postal Service considered not "mailable," among other factors, the report came to the lower figure of 198,351 voters who still lived at their registered address and were therefore wrongfully removed.
How many of those "wrongfully removed" voters then renewed their registration?
I mis-trust many so-called data collection and analysis outfits (remember Cambridge Analytica? :) ); and much of what the ACLU (...if ever an organization was mis-named!) is inimical to civil liberties...
(Two other organizations that top the list of the mis-named: The NAACP and the SPLC. Should be NAALiberalCP and SWanna-be-richLawfare C, which works well for mostly activist lawyers...)
)

Your proposition concluding "then Estonia absolutely must feel threatened by Russia" amused me! Yeah. What's the worst that could happen? :)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • ersi
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1189
Okay, you are not in the mood for actual replies. This drastically reduces my enthusiasm for discussion too.

You say "the Republicans more so than the Democrats" don't want to determine how many citizens reside here. How do you support this counter-factual claim?
You said "the Democrats are dead set against any determination of how many actual citizens we have..." earlier. Back up your claim first. Since I know you can't and won't do it...

it's the actual numbers of migrants of all stripes actually crossing those borders that is worrisome.
Since you haven't defined citizens, you cannot claim to know the actual numbers of migrants of all stripes. Had you a solid definition of citizens, there would be no dispute about e.g. whether Obama is a citizen or not. A self-caused problem.
How many of those "wrongfully removed" voters then renewed their registration?
Thus you completely self-debunk your previous claim that "Since the mid-1960s, the only people who don't vote are those who choose not to, or non-citizens."

It turns out that in order to vote in USA, some need to cross the hurdle of having been removed from the registration. In order to renew their registration, they'd need to be informed that they were removed. There's a govt office removing people from voter registration. Is there also a govt office informing people that they have been removed from voter registration?

Compare how it works over here. Every household gets invitations to voting. There is no need to register, as every citizen registered to a particular address (based on the population registry) is invited. Regardless of getting the invitation, every citizen gets to vote with ID card on voting day. The invitation is not the permission to vote. The ID card is. As a bonus, we have no need for something like ACLU.

  • Frenzie
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  • Administrator
Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1190
How many of those "wrongfully removed" voters then renewed their registration?
Hopefully most, but that's irrelevant. The fact that such hurdles exist is clearly by design.

Compare how it works over here. Every household gets invitations to voting. There is no need to register, as every citizen registered to a particular address (based on the population registry) is invited. Regardless of getting the invitation, every citizen gets to vote with ID card on voting day. The invitation is not the permission to vote. The ID card is. As a bonus, we have no need for something like ACLU.
We do (at least traditionally) need the invitation itself, but evidently every registered citizen automatically receives an invitation.[1]

There was a municipal election one time while i was quite busy and I completely forgot about it. Around 7 or 8 PM I realized I'd forgotten about it, so I grabbed my invitation and rushed over to the local polling station before it closed at 9 PM.

In America (or at least in Cook County) it's not from 7:30 AM - 9 PM, but from 9 AM - 5 PM. Good luck getting there before or after work if you can't get (part of) the day off. And you forgot to register? Well, you're SOL. In Belgium they typically (always?) vote on Sunday, so they can get away with similarly restricted opening hours. In the Netherlands that's as of yet considered incompatible with the Sunday rest.

This is the difference between people not voting on account of being lazy, forgetful or purposefully choosing not to, and actively erecting barriers to ensure as few people as possible will vote.
There are some minor exceptions like myself. Living abroad, I did have to explicitly register because I'm not automatically part of any Dutch municipal register. As many Dutch people abroad, I'm registered to vote by mail in the municipality of The Hague, which is specifically tasked with that responsibility.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1191
You said "the Democrats are dead set against any determination of how many actual citizens we have..."
Did you notice the row over a re-introduction of a citizenship question? It went to the U.S. Supreme Court!
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/27/us/citizenship-question-census.html
https://www.tbf.org/blog/2018/march/understanding-the-census-citizenship-question-debate
When I hear the arguments against including a "citizenship question, " my first reaction is to wonder, just how stupid are our immigrants? They won't respond to the census because they're afraid to answer... How long can someone have been here, legal or illegal, and not know that the Census Bureau does not disclose individuals' data -- to anyone! (Yes, I've worked for the Bureau...)

Since you haven't defined citizens
I had a civics class in grade school, ersi! An American citizen is (1) native born, per the Constitution's 14th Amendment, (2) a naturalized immigrant, per the laws written by Congress, or (3) a child born of at least one (with some exceptions, prescribed by Congress) American citizen. (That was the bit that almost caught Obama! But, if his 1st publisher hadn't touted his foreign birth, it wouldn't likely have come up...)
you cannot claim to know the actual numbers of migrants of all stripes
But the numbers of those apprehended for felonies who are found not to be citizens -- that actual number is, shall we say, large enough to be indicative of a serious problem?
Thus you completely self-debunk your previous claim
Mistakes happen... What is the number of those "wrongfully removed" from the voting roles who renewed their registration? (I'll bet no source other than anecdote exists... And I wouldn't be surprised to find no verifiable anecdotal case.)
There's a govt office removing people from voter registration. Is there also a govt office informing people that they have been removed from voter registration?
Yes. It's the Secretary of State -for each state, and usually an elected office- that has that responsibility, maintaining accurate, up-to-date voter roles. If someone doesn't respond to a post card (which can be done by filling out some basic information on it, signing it, and dropping it into any mailbox), it can reasonably be assumed that they've moved and not filed a change-of-address with a post office; or that they doesn't care to register; or has registered in another state...in which case, they've not been wrongfully removed.
Still, some will slip between the cracks. One's status is both easy to check and easy to amend.
Every household gets invitations to voting. There is no need to register, as every citizen registered to a particular address (based on the population registry) is invited. Regardless of getting the invitation, every citizen gets to vote with ID card on voting day. The invitation is not the permission to vote. The ID card is.
We don't have a "population registry"... What do you do when a non-citizen wants to vote, since he has an invitation? You check his ID. The Dems have been fighting against requiring any sort of ID at the polls, even though a state-issued ID -usually free to obtain- is required for any sort of government benefit! (A driver's license is also a state-issued ID; and a birth certificate would suffice.)
It seems you don't really disagree with me much on this issue. (Does your contentiousness stem from some unstated -or unconscious- animus, I wonder..?)

In short: Any eligible voter who wishes to vote may easily do so. (Even if one isn't on the rolls, a provisional ballot can be cast, so that no one is excluded by misadventure...) But voting isn't a requirement of citizenship, though it should be considered a civic duty.
we have no need for something like ACLU
Of course, you have the EU Human Rights Commission, don't you? :) Or do you need to go to the UN?
The ACLU is a private (non-governmental, you've heard of such?) organization: Advocates for a plethora of "causes". There are others with the same mission who better remain true than does the ACLU!
  • Last Edit: 2020-09-07, 12:57:13 by OakdaleFTL
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • OakdaleFTL
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1192
but evidently every registered citizen automatically receives an invitation
We don't have a "citizen registry"... :)
About Cook County: https://ova.elections.il.gov/ and https://www.cookcountyclerk.com/agency/early-voting
This is the difference between people not voting on account of being lazy, forgetful or purposefully choosing not to, and actively erecting barriers to ensure as few people as possible will vote. (emphasis added)
Question begged not just adequately but completely! :)
But not to worry! Actual knowledge of circumstances here would obviate it... (I'll wait.)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • Frenzie
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Administrator
Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1193
We don't have a "citizen registry"...
IDs/driver's licenses have an address requirement as well as a requirement to keep the address up to date, and if they're required anyway it's an unwelcome additional hurdle to have to request things that you have a constitutional right to.

About Cook County: https://ova.elections.il.gov/ and https://www.cookcountyclerk.com/agency/early-voting
My implicit point was how comparatively bad even Illinois is. Had I been an Illinoisan, my anecdote from some 15 years ago would've resulted in me not voting in that particular election. Because I was in the Netherlands, I did get to vote. Any additional hurdle increases the chance that someone drops out along the way, and some hurdles affect certain groups much more than others. Something doesn't have to be explicit disenfranchisement or capital B Bad to be a problem worth fixing, although it seems to me that some of the things happening in the US (such as recently in Wisconsin) are shameful if not capital B Bad.

But not to worry! Actual knowledge of circumstances here would obviate it... (I'll wait.)
Oh, I don't know, here are some commonly known facts. :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_suppression_in_the_United_States

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1194
My implicit point was how comparatively bad even Illinois is.
:) Even when I was a kid, Illinois was famous for its number of voters, deceased, who still managed to get to the polls!
John Kennedy said himself that the Get-out-the-vote effort in Chicago needed funding... To his father, who replied, "I'm willing to buy you the election... But I'll be damned if I'll pay for a landslide!"
Any additional hurdle increases the chance that someone drops out along the way, and some hurdles affect certain groups much more than others. Something doesn't have to be explicit disenfranchisement or capital B Bad to be a problem worth fixin

IDs/driver's licenses have an address requirement as well as a requirement to keep the address up to date, and if they're required anyway it's an unwelcome additional hurdle to have to request things that you have a constitutional right to. (underling added)
That's the simple point I've been trying to get you reasonable folk to understand: The Democrats oppose any ID/Driver's license requirement.... To them, that's disenfranchisement!
Must Americans be taken by the hand like children and be monitored as they vote? I don't buy that. The Dems do.

Can one vote in the Netherlands, if one doesn't have ID? :)

here are some commonly known facts
From your source:
Quote
This article has multiple issues.
  • This article may be unbalanced towards certain viewpoints. (August 2019)
  • This article may lend undue weight to certain ideas, incidents, or controversies. (November 2019)
  • This article needs to be updated. (November 2019)
As Ronald Reagan said a long time ago: "It's not what you don't know, it's what you know that ain't so..."
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • ersi
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1195
Did you notice the row over a re-introduction of a citizenship question? It went to the U.S. Supreme Court!
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/27/us/citizenship-question-census.html
https://www.tbf.org/blog/2018/march/understanding-the-census-citizenship-question-debate
Your sources allege nefarious motives to the Republican push for the citizenship question in census. Can you show such motives are not there?

First off, the citizenship question in census does not jibe well with the libertarian-slanted Republican values, such as the "thin government" promises and the sov-cit ideology. Therefore, in the light of the controversy as per your sources and also tentatively acknowledging that we Europeans don't know and much that we know about America "ain't so", those nefarious motives cannot be ruled out.

By the way, many Hispanics - your primary example for illegal immigrants - tend to vote Republican. Marco Rubio is a Republican, which seems to be the case with the whole Cuban-descent bunch. Due to Catholic family values, most of the rest of the Hispanic community leans the same way.

Both parties like to play the gerrymandering and the voter-fraud game. The solution would not be too difficult - such controversies do not exist in any civilised country. It's just that USA refuses to be civilised.


  • Frenzie
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Administrator
Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1196
That's the simple point I've been trying to get you reasonable folk to understand: The Democrats oppose any ID/Driver's license requirement.... To them, that's disenfranchisement!
Must Americans be taken by the hand like children and be monitored as they vote? I don't buy that. The Dems do.

Can one vote in the Netherlands, if one doesn't have ID?
What I left implicit but meant to hint at with the word "if" is that if you require things such as IDs the state has an obligation to make such things as IDs cheaply and easily available. It's a different side of the same coin. I would imagine these Democrats object to a specific combination of factors.

In the Netherlands you've needed both your voting pass (invitation) and your ID since shortly after I was first allowed to vote iirc. Back in 2010 the Dutch Supreme Court ruled that the ID is allowed to be expired for a maximum period of 5 years because 60,000 people were turned away when they went to cast their ballot, which mainly disenfranchised the elderly. You don't even need any nefarious intentions to accidentally disenfranchise voters. At least, it seems unlikely that the leading Christian government party with a disproportionally large number of elderly voters would purposefully disenfranchise 60,000 of what may well be mainly their own voters.

As Ronald Reagan said a long time ago: "It's not what you don't know, it's what you know that ain't so..."
That's a basic tenet of critical thinking, albeit in an incomplete form. You have to think about what would prove you wrong, and you have to steelman the opposing argument for that. "Oregon" may well be a valid answer in my case; it more or less implements what I sketched earlier. But there's a not particularly subtle difference between "we'll get there, and besides it's not so bad" and "everything's already fine and dandy." Another thing potentially worth noting is Election Day voter registration, which depending on how it's implemented could get around any concerns in that regard besides notification.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1197
Your sources allege nefarious motives to the Republican push for the citizenship question in census. Can you show such motives are not there?
I don't know, ersi... But when did you stop beating your wife? You reprobate! :)
the citizenship question in census does not jibe well with the libertarian-slanted Republican values
And most certainly not all Republicans are libertarian-leaning. (I remember an early-for-me issue of the National Review whose letter column received a missive from a grade-schooler: "Dear Mr Buckley," it read. "My teacher tells me that antidisestablishmentarianism is the longest word in the dictionary. Is that so?" Buckley replied "Yes. And I'm for it!"
Quote
The tomato family is out for a Sunday stroll and Junior lags behind. Papa stops, waits, and swats the boy, squishing him, saying "Ketchup..."
those nefarious motives cannot be ruled out
And even your limited formal logic admits, you can't prove a negative.
Also, I still like the admonition: Never ascribe to malice what plain incompetence can explain!
By the way, many Hispanics - your primary example for illegal immigrants - tend to vote Republican. Marco Rubio is a Republican, which seems to be the case with the whole Cuban-descent bunch. Due to Catholic family values, most of the rest of the Hispanic community leans the same way.
Sort-of true, ersi. Those of Cuban extraction do tend to lean Republican. And you'd think -for the reasons you cite- that Mexican (and Central American) emigrants would, too. But they generally vote Democrat, in large part. (It's a similar situation with American blacks: By and large, they're church-going and conservative, hard-working and industrious; But for the most part they largely vote Democratic... That seems to be changing, which I think a good thing, and long overdue.)
Both parties like to play the gerrymandering and the voter-fraud game. The solution would not be too difficult - such controversies do not exist in any civilised country. It's just that USA refuses to be civilised.
Oh, indeed they do! The term was named for an early governor of Massachusetts, the state where I grew up! [Go ahead: I'm expecting your jibe... :)] We're rubes or barbarians to many in Europe, I know. Yet if the Enlightenment is to continue we are the last best hope, no? :)

if you require things such as IDs the state has an obligation to make such things as IDs cheaply and easily available
Most states I've been in do. I know our federal system strikes most Europeans as bizarre, but it is what it is: Rules vary.
Election day registration is allowed in a few states.

Oregon! What can I say about Oregon?
Have you followed the 100+ days of "protests" in Portland? Heard the varried pronouncements from its mayor? :(
This sort of "exhuberance" shall we call it? It has manifested in Portland often. During the 70s and 80s, many of California's wildest and weirdest went north to the wooded wildernesses of Oregon and Washington state... They prospered and proselytized and procreated! Now, the mainly conservative denizens of the central, non-coastal, eastern areas of those states refuse to bear the stigma of those big-city liberals and anarchists -- to the point that there are movements afoot for a number of their counties to "join" Idaho, leaving the crazies behind...
So California -The Land of Fruits and Nuts!- is most to blame for the unrest in our Pacific Northwest. But our remorse buys us no solace: We've cultivated yet another few generations of anarchists and "Democrats," who -having gained political control of the state- seem determined to destroy it, economically and demographically.
There's still two weak movements seeking to split California into two or three states...  And, of course, there's Texas:
https://www.tsl.texas.gov/exhibits/annexation/part5/question7.html :)
All I can say for Oregon and Washington for sure is that there's a lot of mighty pretty country, and the weather ain't too bad, mostly...
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • Frenzie
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  • Administrator
Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1198
Most states I've been in do. I know our federal system strikes most Europeans as bizarre, but it is what it is: Rules vary.
If rules across Europe vary less, and that's a big if, ;) it'd probably be because [insert state] presented a superior model to be emulated.

Here in Belgium voting is compulsory. In that sense it's arguably more different than any of the differences between the US and all (?) other European states.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Is_voting_compulsory_in_national_elections.,_OWID.svg

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1199
I'll follow your link later, Frenzie... For now, let me state that I'd known of no non-Communist (or non-totalitarian) country where voting was required!
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman