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Topic: What's Going on in the Americas? (Read 196429 times)

  • jax
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What's Going on in the Americas?
There are a number of threads from the Old World, any news from the New? Anything American goes.

  • ersi
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1300
First, I know this is an unpopular opinion +- but: Floyd's death was not a homicide;
So you are saying that you base your decisions on popularity, nevermind the legality, due process and evidence. Good that you acknowledge it. That's one of the reasons why discussions with you never work and never will.

But do you understand why courts definitely should not operate your way? Otherwise it would seem that, according to you, the legal system should be geared to protect the police, not the people whom the police supposedly protect and serve. And coverup should be the normal culture in police force and in courts, because this is how it was in Soviet Union and how it is in Putin's Russia and these are somehow worthy examples to emulate.

[...] the drugs in his system and his pre-existing conditions account for the manner of his demi se...
Wouldn't/Shouldn't a well-trained and experienced police officer notice all this and factor it into his own behaviour? Shouldn't a police officer get the suspect into custody as fast as possible, instead of asphyxiating him on the ground for minutes while the suspect is entirely limp? And at the same time the police officer proudly poses for the cameras around... This case is so clearly live-documented that there is no way to blame the victim here.

The way I see it, Chauvin is akin to a driver who has a strong tendency to speed up when spotting a speed camera, i.e. a completely unfitting character for his function. What should one do to such a driver? What would have been the right verdict for Chauvin? Oh, I remember you don't care about right. You care about popular or not.

Now, since I'm on the road, using my phone, I'll just add: Justice is God's perview.
You mean, this is why there is no Department of Justice in USA. Oh, wait, there is. So, you are actually saying that USA is fulfilling God's mission. Again, just as I thought this could not get any worse with you, it can.
  • Last Edit: 2021-04-23, 06:34:55 by ersi

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1301
America would be fairly average for the Western world if it weren't for a few highly localized problem areas, like Riverdale and Englewood in Chicago, or rather problem street segments.


That's presumably a pattern found elsewhere in America (and elsewhere). Further South in the North: 2019 Organized Crime and Violence in Mexico Report





  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1302
One would have thought more of the border areas would show high rates... TJ is as expected, an outlier.
How our politicians are not worried about the precipitous rise in some of our largest cities escapes me. (Well, not really: The Democratic administrations maintain their constant focus on -- optics. (And the election cycle...:)

Am I the only one who finds it odd, that Canada and Brazil are -not just as violent as depicted but so under-reportedly so? [Belfrager, do you keep up with news from Brazil? My relatives in Canada don't mention anything...] Causes can't be simple and readily assumed, given the geographically widespread phenomena...
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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  • Frenzie
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1303
First, I know this is an unpopular opinion +- but: Floyd's death was not a homicide; the drugs in his system and his pre-existing conditions account for the manner of his demi se... (One of his pec's was "being special while black*!) to
The guy lost consciousness after 6 minutes and then he was suffocated for another 3. The first 6 are gross misconduct, the last 3 constitute flat-out murder.

But instead of repeating myself I'll just post these links:
https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=3745.msg84246#msg84246
https://thedndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=472.msg84700#msg84700

That's presumably a pattern found elsewhere in America (and elsewhere).
Of course the pattern itself kind of exists here too, but our average is so much better because we don't have anything anywhere close to that bad.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1304
I'll not quibble about the ME's determination. I know what the cop's options were; do you?
About the numbers and geograpy's importance, a lot more can be said. But of course you are right: Some parts of the world are more violent, and North America remains a contender even if one takes the U>S> out of the picture (Hm. I wonder about Costa Rica...?:)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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  • ersi
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1305
Looking at some failed states.



  • Frenzie
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  • Administrator
Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1306
I know what the cop's options were; do you?
If he didn't abuse the suspect the mobpolice boss was going to cut off his daughter's finger?

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1307
If he tasered the fool, Georgie would have been dead a lot sooner, and everyone would have missed out on all that "summer of love"... fun! (Have you ever been tase'd? The standard voltage is -I believe- 50,000 volts: Ticker thrasher, eh?
Or do you simply accept the "innocent and harmless while black" meme? :) It's becoming quite overt and all-but required in much of my county's media, among our silly (Dem, but I repeat myself) politicians, and -cruelly and counterproductively- with LEOs.
Unfortunately, most of the police I've known over the years are now retired, and likely moved away... But there are other resources, no? (Wikipedia seems to be the most used here. It's always good for a laugh, if your subject of interest is in anyway controversial...:)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • ersi
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1308
If he tasered the fool, Georgie would have been dead a lot sooner [...}
Or do you simply accept the "innocent and harmless while black" meme?
So, the only options for Chauvin were to kill Floyd either this way or that way? I submit that your attitude definitely goes under the "guilty while black" meme, straightforward racism not veiled in any way. Are you the chief of your local KKK cell or aspiring to?

The reality is that Floyd would have survived if Chauvin would not have pressed him down with his knee on the neck. There was no need to press him down. Not for so long anyway. Once handcuffed, Floyd should have been picked up or at least STOP STRANGLING HIM. Does it break some law or police protocol if the officer refrains from strangling the suspect?

Egregious breach of protocol and procedure by Chauvin, resulting in death of the suspect. Definitely guilty.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1309
The reality is that Floyd would have survived if Chauvin would not have pressed him down with his knee on the neck. There was no need to press him down. Not for so long anyway. Once handcuffed, Floyd should have been picked up or at least STOP STRANGLING HIM. Does it break some law or police protocol if the officer refrains from strangling the suspect?
Wrong, wrong, probably wrong; wrong, VERY WRONG... Read the ME's report, not the "papers"...
Egregious breach of protocol and procedure by Chauvin, resulting in death of the suspect. Definitely guilty.
Agreed: He was being a good cop; in a bad situation that Floyd precipitated, and then egregiously reacted to its reality. Floyd was being arrested; he didn't want to be arrested. Oh, well.
Chauvin was long enough on the job and should have known better. (Note how long it took the EMTs to arrive... The times have changed, and a fella can't get an even break: Too many people dealing from the bottom of the deck...)
You, likely Floyd himself, a large swath of glib gelatinous neo-Liberal hearts -and brains, either deviously or naively educated by poseurs- believe it particularly important that Floyd was black and Chauvin was white; indeed, only the skin pigmentation is important...
That's a foolish tack to take, friend: It leads to a neighborhood where no one is safe, and no one is allowed to be safe.

The reality is that Floyd would have survived if [...]
If he'd simply submitted to the arrest. (That's a Period, pal.) Now he's just very special, and the Speaker of our House of Representatives, 2nd in line for the presidency, thanked the fool for his "sacrifice."
And you think me a racist? :)
  • Last Edit: 2021-04-25, 09:09:59 by OakdaleFTL
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • ersi
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1310
Read the ME's report, not the "papers"...
I watched the video. Did you? And we have the verdict. Did the judge and jury go by "papers"?

Floyd was being arrested; he didn't want to be arrested. Oh, well.
While down, Floyd did not do anything to resist.

...Floyd was black and Chauvin was white...
Imagine for a moment the exact same circumstances and course of events while there's a white guy in place of Floyd and a black guy in place of Chauvin. Try it. This is why I say your attitude is unambiguously racist: Even before you spell out your answer to this (which you won't, knowing you), it is clear that you would not suggest the same treatment (strangling for some nine minutes on the ground when the suspect is all limp) and outcome options (death or death) for a white suspect, all other circumstances remaining the same. And you would cry out for a guilty verdict on all counts for the black police officer who treated the white suspect this way.

The shocking thing here is not that you are a racist. The president #45 himself was one and got the presidency partly on this platform. The shocking thing is that you are a proud unapologetic racist and you think you can get away with it.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1311
Boy-o: I've been that "white boy" in that situation! Twice... (Resisting arrest always looks bad; heck, just being arrested looks bad.) And I both let it go and long ago got over it... Can I "get away with" being an adult in a world inhabited -if I'm to believe your reactions are representative- by children who shouldn't be allowed out without a keeper?
Not if you were in charge. And not yet in the United States has the Constitution and our system of laws and law enforcement been relegated to the Glorious Future of the New Man/Woman/State..

BTW: Do you know or have you ever known and American black?

WPMB!
  • Last Edit: 2021-04-25, 09:35:20 by OakdaleFTL
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • ersi
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1312
BTW: Do you know or have you ever known and American black?
Yes. Different from you, I am moderately well travelled. I know personally also Egyptians (i.e. Arabs who have an uneasy relationship against Christians or European race in general - whom they view as immediate successors of Crusaders - , while they come to Europe to pick up white brides - I know exactly this type personally), Turks and Greeks (these two hate each others' guts deeply). Plus I am an Estonian. Estonians have deep historical misgivings against both Germans and Russians.

So, it's the world we live in. My solution is to apply the law equally on all. In the Floyd kind of case, there is no excuse for the police officer. What's your solution? Keep escalating the cycle of paybacks hoping that your side will eventually prevail because it would be in keeping with the tradition?

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1313
No, certainly not. I was raised (along with two younger siblings) by a single mother; that means, basically, no dad. She did the best she could, and accomplished much that was and is commendable. One thing she forgot (...although I don't believe it was an oversight) was: Teaching her children that they can or should glean anything about a person from the color of their skin, their heritage, the way they speak or whatever other stereotypes were -are- popular, and vice versa.

On a personal note: I was there when the first black family moved into East Boston's government housing project... The rest is history! :)

I remain to this day firmly committed to Live and Let Live.
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • ersi
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1314
As I predicted, you keep omitting the key part: What your solution is.

It is not enough to deny that your racist attitude is racist. It is. It remains racist until you can coherently explain it under a different ideology - which you cannot and won't.

Ideology is, at a minimum, a collective thing, at best a universal potential. You only have irrelevant personal anecdotal tidbits.

I remain to this day firmly committed to Live and Let Live.
Except for Floyd your two options are: Death by strangling or death by taser. And all along you have managed to steer clear of spelling out your preferred outcome for Chauvin.

Edit: Oh, I get it now - it is Live and Let Live for whites among themselves, not with regard to blacks :doh:
  • Last Edit: 2021-04-25, 12:09:00 by ersi

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1315
So some silly supercilious sanctimonious toady to the mob calls me a racist I'm supposed to quiver and quake, shake in my boots and redden my complexion -- to assuage his pseudo-guilt? :)
In the immortal words of that great moral philosopher Buck Owens, "You don't know me, but you don't like me..." Well, brother, I don't give a hang for any man's opinion, unless I've worked beside him! (I might make exceptions for a creative and inquiring mind; you can presume the lack I'd note... But I'll spare you the effort: Remember what Socrates found 'round Athens and else where? Men who thought they knew more than they did, and.worse, they thought if others agree they must be right, just, wise, whatever...  No wonder he drank the hemlock!
But I'm made of sterner stuff!
Try all the variations of ad hominem you can, you're still just putting lipstick on a pig...
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • ersi
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1316
The point is not to make you quiver, but to call you to have a reasoned position on the topic at hand. You don't have it.

Try all the variations of ad hominem you can,
You clearly don't know what an ad hominem is. Your "silly supercilious sanctimonious toady to the mob" is an ad hominem, but you having a racist position on a topic where part of the issue is racism means that you are a racist, nothing to do with ad hominem.

I will from now on liberally assume that you fail to recognise any and all logical fallacies because ad hominem is the simplest of them all and you should know it. You evidently know the words for the fallacies, but you do not know what their substance is. Well, I should have known all along - for a nominalist, there is no substance in anything anyway.

Edit: Have you seen the movie "White Dog"? https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084899/
There the original trainer of the dog, who had trained the dog to be a white dog, was completely clueless about the evil nature of racism.

I don't take you to be a bad man, Oakdale. Just utterly clueless about racism, the same as you are clueless about logical fallacies. No reason to take this personally: Trumpists in general tend to be extremely clueless about most things.
  • Last Edit: 2021-04-25, 14:22:54 by ersi

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1317
The point is [...] to call you to have a reasoned position on the topic at hand. You don't have it.
Your "call" consists of little but regurgitated ill-informed opinions, and your expert opinion of what the video you watched showed... Have you ever "taken down a suspect" or been taken down? At least you agree with Sean Hannity, the "well-trained street fighter"! He too thought the optics were enough. He too was wrong.

When it comes to race relations, particularly in the U.S., no "accidental" tourist has time to absorb a tenth of the dynamics at play. And when it comes to police work, no wobbly-kneed Oops, gotta-go  sort is likely to understand much of anything as simple and complicated as making an arrest.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, ersi, but cops only rarely have the authority to "let things slide."
Since you wouldn't have tased him, you suggest picking him up and putting him in the car... (Do you forget that he was in the car and crawled out the street-side door to the tarmac; where he -presumably- meant to crawl across how many lanes of traffic? How long would you have let him crawl?) You might strop to consider how big a man he was, what he weighed: Men and pianos are (you'll forgive the expression:) different animals; four strong men can heft a piano... A man, who may become again belligerent, combative and encouraged by the onlookers surrounding the scene, might pose a serious threat. But you see none of that, ensconced at your computer; the best you can think of is to shout "Racist!" at anyone who might know more than you.
You call my "opinions" racist, because I'm a racist; and I'm a racist because my opinions are racist...so you say. I defy you to find a single black American who's met and interacted with me over the last 60 years who'd agree with you.
How do you counter my interpretation of the circumstances, choices available, and milieu in which the incident(s) took place? You attack my character, and then assume the validity of your spurious attacks, deduce that my opinions are wrong... Because: Racism!? Really? TFFW
Trumpists in general tend to be extremely clueless about most things.
Hm. Stereotype much? And once again I'd ask in what way (you know: when, where, how...) was Trump racist?

Are you an Idealist or a solipsist? I begin to wonder, again... Remember our Eliza exchanges? :) Have a nice day!
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • ersi
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1318
Well, there's much, but you are too old be educated. Just this thing:

I'd ask in what way (you know: when, where, how...) was Trump racist?
In most of his build-the-wall speeches he perfectly embodied the racism against Mexicans. If you think this was not it, it just demonstrates your cluelessness.

Please stop making yourself worse than you already are. Get a grip.

Edit: By the way, in my personal view, Trump's racism in those speeches was not the worst. The worst was his factlessness and lack of any analysis of anything. His administration consisted in haphazard fumbling, while he apparently thought that the fumbling was actually good policy-making. This was the worst part in my opinion.

However, for the good of USA (apart from my personal opinion) it is important to recognise the evils of racism and to call out racists. USA is a bit too full of racists who are increasingly full of themselves. It would be good for the country to tone the racism down a bit.

How do you counter my interpretation of the circumstances, choices available, and milieu in which the incident(s) took place?
I already countered your taser option, which was your ONLY interpretation of the circumstances, choices available, and milieu of the incident. This was your ONLY thing, an utterly arbitrary nonsensical baseless so-called option that even does not merit any countering, dude.

(Do you forget that he was in the car and crawled out the street-side door to the tarmac; where he -presumably- meant to crawl across how many lanes of traffic? How long would you have let him crawl?)
"Let him crawl"? Who let him out of the car? You have policemen who cannot even put a man in the car properly! Fire them all and start hiring anew, this time with proper due diligence!

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, ersi, but cops only rarely have the authority to "let things slide."
In this case, the "things" were the mistakes by the police - fatal mistakes. There must be accountability at least. Your police force is full of too many incompetent fools. Well, absolute clowns can even make it to presidency there, so no wonder really.

Nah, you keep getting worse. You are not improving.
  • Last Edit: 2021-04-25, 16:23:33 by ersi

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1319
In most of his build-the-wall speeches he perfectly embodied the racism against Mexicans. If you think this was not it, it just demonstrates your cluelessness.
Well, I know about a hundred Mexicans (as you call them), dozens are family. Ahem! Few of them agree with you... Of course, you and our "media" have the right to tell Mexicans what they should be offended by. Can you ever cite a case that doesn't rely on stereotypes?
The worst was his factlessness and lack of any analysis of anything. His administration consisted in haphazard fumbling, while he apparently thought that the fumbling was actually good policy-making. This was the worst part in my opinion.
Can you please be a little more vague? I'd like to see you whippoorwill your way out of your befogged state of TDS...
it is important to recognise the evils of racism and to call out racists
It's important to teach history; ideology, not so much. When real racism is ignored because it has no purpose useful to the ideologue, it rankles! Black, white, brown, yellow, red and albinos of all races. Where was Pelosi when George Floyd was just a self-destructive petty criminal? (I'm not sure the victims of his armed home-invasion would use the term "petty.") Who is it that actively promotes racism? Besides various black and brown student organizations, and good ole liberal enclaves, I mean.
USA is a bit too full of racists who are increasingly full of themselves. It would be good for the country to tone the racism down a bit.
Now a few (or, if you insist, a few hundred...) knuckleheads who can hardly spell the word "racist" (not to mention "racialist":) Mighty broad brush you're painting with, pard. Tone down...:) someone else's hysteria? Pray tell, how might that be done? (I've a suggestion: Tell them often and loudly, "Get over yourself!" or the equivalent "Get a life!")
You have policemen who cannot even put a man in the car properly! Fire them all and start hiring anew, this time with proper due diligence!
Well, if he hadn't died a hero's death, would you consider the experienced bouncer George Floyd for the job? :) By due diligence -proper serves no purpose in such a formulation- you mean Don't enforce the laws criminals don't like, don't arrest anyone who doesn't want to be arrested; tell the good citizens of every color: You're on your own, baby! I'm just working for a pension...
Who'd live in such a place, one wonders?! (Someone from where walls were lately built to keep folks from moving away, I guess. But damn few Americans!)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • ersi
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1320
Okay, my last words on this topic.

My objection to Chauvin was his breach of police protocol and procedure that resulted in the suspect's death. In response, you pulled out the race card with your  "innocent and harmless while black" post. Later you asked how many blacks I knew, making it even more about racism.

Yes, it is about racism too. And you are the racist number one, pulling out the race card. I keep it primarily about the fatal breach of police regulations, which cannot be denied. The judge and jury - and the fellow police officers who testified - saw no defence for Chauvin and the only defence you offer is blaming Floyd for being black and for managing to do things that were possible only because of the defiant negligence - as documented on video - of the officers on the spot. For Floyd, there is no innocent or guilty here - he did not receive a charge and he did not make it to any trial due to fatal mistakes of police officers.

I offered you a chance to retract your racism with a thought experiment: What if the police officer had been black and the suspect white. You answered that you had been in that situation, while you left out everything crucial in the equation: Did the police breach the protocol or your rights? Did you, perhaps, die or not? Any other harm or injury? Did you let it slide? Was there anything to let slide or were you actually worthy of suspicion? What punishment, if any, should have been more appropriate for Chauvin, instead of "popular"? Or are you seriously saying, against all established facts, that Floyd's death was an unfortunate accident, he was about to die anyway (which is something that trained police officers MUST notice and factor into the situation!), and Chauvin should remain on the job with maybe a reprimand?

So, you essentially have not addressed anything relevant to the topic, except for pulling out the race card. Over and out.
  • Last Edit: 2021-04-25, 19:54:31 by ersi

  • OakdaleFTL
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1321
u
Nor will I ever, since you refuse to put yourself in another's shoes. Sobeit.
But you have convinced me that Marxism -> relativism-> deconstructionism -> anti-Colonialism -> anti-racism -> intersectionality -> fascism -> Totalitarianism -> (collapse) ... And so it goes. Until enough people say Stop!
What should scare the beJesus outta the not quite committed Social Warrior is the addition of We're getting off here; good luck!
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • ersi
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: What's Going on in the Americas?
Reply #1322
Verizon sells internet trailblazers Yahoo and AOL for $5B
Wireless company Verizon will sell Verizon Media, which consists of the once-pioneering tech platforms, to Apollo Global Management in a $5 billion deal.

Verizon said Monday that it will keep a 10% stake in the new company, which will be called Yahoo.

[...]

Verizon spent about $9 billion buying AOL and Yahoo over two years starting in 2015, hoping to jump-start a digital media business that would compete with Google and Facebook. It didn't work...
It's because Marissa Mayer did a good job. Her job was to kill Yahoo so that it never recovers. Something like Microsoft has done to Nokia and Skype.