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Topic: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections  (Read 18399 times)

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
For those of us that enjoy the American spectacle every leap year and the fulfilment and joy that comes with it. Who's in, who's out? Who'll win and who'll claim it's all rigged? Who'll have the best party and who the longest hangover?

  • ensbb3
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Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #75
The role of the president is very different from expected
Indeed, the role wasn't as critical upon its written conception as it became in practice, being directly influenced by the founding fathers sitting in the position. Several were irked by the pointlessness of it all. Without running too far into and IIRC; it wan't until Madison watched the White House burn that the office really started to shape up to be more recognizable for what it is today. 

In another thread I mentioned the Dems focusing on legislative seats, mostly the Senate. For my purpose that's to reel in some powers that have only been scratched at since Bush II. Trump is the perfect one to help that too.

  • ersi
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Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #76
The role of the president is very different from expected
Indeed, the role wasn't as critical upon its written conception as it became in practice...
The role was comparable to kings elsewhere, so surely they would have been aware how critical it is. They wanted a king of their own, only term-limited and elective. In fact, in medieval Europe many kings and princes were elective (by aristocrats and oligarchs) and sometimes also term-limited, such as in Poland, in the Balkan countries, in several German and Russian states. If the founding fathers were who they are cracked up to be, they knew about these historical precedents - and likely they knew, because they were emulating these precedents.

Compared to modern democracies, the president of the USA combines the roles of the president and the prime minister. This is quite critical.

  • Frenzie
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  • Administrator
Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #77
See most specifically the historical office of stadtholder, directly referenced by some of the American Founding Fathers as a blueprint for the US President. Note that for the Dutch Republic the stadtholder was initially mostly an ersatz king born from a then perceived necessity. With limited power compared to some kings, of course, but that was well-precedented in the Low Countries and abroad. The fact that the Spanish king didn't agree with said historical precedents was the root of the problem.

  • ensbb3
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Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #78
The role was comparable to kings elsewhere, so surely they would have been aware how critical it is.
Well yes and no. The position didn't exist under the first constitution ( The Articles of Confederation ). A lot of the "Republic" ideas from that carried over. The power was meant to be retained by a legislative body. Washington is credited with setting precedence but moreover he didn't push any boundaries. He wanted to be, or at least was, the Anti-King. Adams and Jefferson had different opinions. Adams being more of a realist and Jefferson was always too idealistic. If memory serves both resented the office which was there for little more than a mediator. Veto power was looked at much like the electoral college, as insurance. Madison found out how valuable the title "Commander and Chief" was. A commander of nothing and chief of congress' will[ingness to do nothing].  
  • Last Edit: 2019-07-14, 13:14:00 by ensbb3

  • ersi
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Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #79
The Electoral College is a source of stability and proper representation. It gives those in the smaller states, especially in the heartland, a say in their own destiny, and with it a sense of citizenry. They are active participants, and at times great influencers, in the nation's decisions, and not just the flotsam and jetsam floating wherever the irresistible tides as dictated by California, New York, Florida, or Texas propels them. After all, if the mechanics of the nation in which you live is to simply cater like rural serfs to several urban pockets of that country far removed from your own parochial interests and beliefs, and if you know that you will never have a voice, then why stay in this nation at all? Those pushing for majority rule at the expense of the very foundations of an electoral system that has served us as well as any can when applied to so large and diverse a country as ours are unwittingly sowing the seeds of disunion. If any of them had been taught anything about our history besides slavery, Indian genocide, and Viet Nam, they would understand the fire they are playing with. The last time secession was tried it didn't go so well.
Electoral College versus not has nothing to do with secession. It has to do with principle: Are people voting for the president or not? According to the US Constitution, the answer is no, absolutely not. Instead, the Electoral College votes the president in. Also according to the US Constitution, the electors are *appointed*,[1] not voted by the people.

For the electors to truly vote, their conscience should be free and not bound by the popular vote. (And the electors should not be threatened with fines for not voting as per popular vote.) According to the US Constitution, the people should not be able to vote at all. The people should be de-indoctrinated from their current misconception that the people are voting for the president either directly or indirectly. This is how it should be according to the US Constitution.

Or else amend the constitution to abolish the Electoral College.
US Constitution Article II: "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors... The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two Persons [namely President and Vice-President]."

  • SmileyFaze
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Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #80
........Or else amend the constitution to abolish the Electoral College.

I wouldn't hold my breath about that happening.

Amendments have been offered over 11,000 times since the late 1700's, & of those only 33 have ever been successfully approved by Congress (Super Majority affirmative votes of both the House & Senate), much less sent to the States for Ratification by the People....by 3/4's of the States (38 of the 50 States).

Outside of the Bill of Rights (the first 10 Amendments) only 17 Amendments were successfully ratified by the States.

Only One (1) Amendment to the US Constitution has ever been repealed.......The 21st Amendment repealed the 18th Amendment,  which was a prohibition on booze.

The last Amendment, the 27th Amendment, made it through the process successfully back in 1992.

Being that the First 10 Amendments are the protected Rights of the American People, it has been suggested by SCOTUS that they may not be repealed, or possibly even amended, but nothing is impossible as long as an amendment process exists.

So, if there is any chance that an amendment might make it through the process & become Law of the Land, I would have to think it would have to be either extremely important, extremely popular, or a mixture of both.

Abolishing the Electoral College, IMHO, would probably fall far short of having enough support to pass the rigorous test....

     In times of universal deceit, telling the honest truth is a revolutionary act.

  • ersi
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Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #81
My point was not to suggest improvements, but to point out the deficiencies. US people operate under the delusion that they are electing their president, thus making evident their lack of knowledge of their own constitution. The politicians and politologists (such as the one quoted) work to perpetuate the ignorance of the people. This situation is irreparable.

  • SmileyFaze
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Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #82
     In times of universal deceit, telling the honest truth is a revolutionary act.

  • SmileyFaze
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Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #83

My point was not to suggest improvements, but to point out the deficiencies. US people operate under the delusion that they are electing their president, thus making evident their lack of knowledge of their own constitution. The politicians and politologists (such as the one quoted) work to perpetuate the ignorance of the people. This situation is irreparable.



True, & they, along with most of the western world are under the delusion that America was founded as a democracy.

Far from it.

The American Founding Fathers despised the thought of instituting a democracy. They set out to create a Republic....A Constitutional Republic, based loosely on a few democratic principals true, but a Republic controlled by the US Constitution, written by the People, with the People as the sole source of all power to govern, which is granted through the consent of the governed.

     In times of universal deceit, telling the honest truth is a revolutionary act.

  • krake
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Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #84
"I believe Everyone in the world should be able to vote for the US president, because it has an impact on all of us"

Pamela Anderson!
https://twitter.com/pamfoundation/status/1170010553462513667

  • ensbb3
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Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #85
I suppose that's as shallow as I'd expect. While we're ankle deep in thought; Wow, she's still alive!?

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #86
She is still an item with Julian Assange, a Non-American that has had greater influence on US elections than most Americans, so that should be all good. He couldn't hold a candle to the influence-peddling of another Australian, Rupert Murdoch, but he is an American now. The US is the biggest democracy money can buy. Bloomberg/Zuckerberg should be the dream ticket.

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #87
The 2024 pre-election has recently started.

I was very pleased with Bernie Sanders win in New Hampshire. The DNC is making the same mistakes the RNC did with Herr Trumpenfuehrer, and Bernie being the nominee looms ever closer. Only potential challenge I see is that rotten bourgeoisie, Bloomberg with his billions to waste.

  • rjhowie
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Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #88
There is nothing awesome about US Presidential Elections and unfortunately they border on farce.

The speaker comes on and yaks away not very detailed in much and a crowd of the brained in rows behind he/she waving cards like a bunch of children. Both the Democrat and Republic big events are in the same mode. Does not look very mature nor adult. Both those two parties are in their own ways big money involved and any other party has not got a chance of being noted. I do feel sorry for intelligent Americans and they also have to through the immature looking conferences as they are stuck with.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ersi
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Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #89
Some schmucks commenting on Sanders vs. Biden debate before it even started, "Sanders already lost - he is wearing a blue shirt."



  • rjhowie
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Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #90
Folk over in America are basically stuck or controlled really by two corporate controlled parties and not much routine practical democracy.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #91
This week (or month) we'll see if the man responsible for more US deaths than all the wars since World War 2 and 11 September combine is going to be re-elected by the same Americans, or not. 

  • ersi
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Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #92
Americans do not elect their president. Americans are under collective delusion that they are electing their president. This was very clearly manifest in the previous elections.

  • rjhowie
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Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #93
There are in hard statistics over 40,000,000 poorer Yanks to him it makes sod all who is in the White House. Did Obama reduce that? Nope. So does not matter a jot what is supposed to be wonderful assessment the serious deficiencies continue under the two lots and if not a Democrat or Republican you might as well emigrate as principle just a word.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #94
the man responsible for more US deaths than all the wars since World War 2 and 11 September combine[d]
You don't often "go off the deep end," jax: To what do you refer?
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • Belfrager
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Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #95
Very difficult choice today for our American friends.

Specially if we consider that besides having two decide between two intellectual nullities to command their national destiny they are also asked to have an huge responsibility in world policy without any candidate able to perform at such level.
A matter of attitude.

  • rjhowie
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Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #96
Yes would sympathise with that assertion regarding both Trump and Biden and the whole mess rubbishes the pompous ideas that Yanks have of being the greatest democracy.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ersi
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Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #97
The candidates are so awful that the race is pretty close. Trump hasn't prematurely declared victory yet https://www.politico.com/2020-election/results/

This has to stop.

We can't do another election like this. I don't mean the outcome -- I don't anticipate being happy about that, either, but as I write this on Tuesday, it's still unknown. Nor do I mean the election process proper -- proposals like moving to a national popular vote (which would require a constitutional amendment) or changes to voting method (which would take state-by-state legislation).

I mean what we commonly call "the election," which is more precisely the presidential campaign season, an utter fiasco that consumes half our public attention half the time and makes our country meaner, stupider, and more frightening. The way we are "helped" to choose our presidents is not conducive to choosing well, nor does it advance us in the necessary task of living with each other after the choice is made.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #98
We can't do another election like this.
So says Bonnie Kristian, a pontificator at large... Her qualification(s): Master of Arts in Christian Thought 2016 (Bethel Seminary, summa cum laude; thesis: "A Political Theology of the Atonement") and Bachelor of Science in Political Science 2009 (Bridgewater College of Virginia, summa cum laude). I'm impressed by her gall!
And yours, ersi: Choosing sources according to their propensity to agree with you (...in this case only? :) ) seems like something you'd reject as more appropriate to the Twitter-verse and Facebook blogs...
I'm also still amazed at how many people argue from the "If I were King..." standpoint!
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: The Awesomesauce of the American 2020 Presidential Elections
Reply #99
You don't often "go off the deep end," jax: To what do you refer?

That's not going off any deep end, though I did make a slight miscalculation (Vietnam doesn't count, does it?).  On revised counting the total US post-war war deaths are about 103k, plus another 3k in 2001. The number of Covid-19 deaths today is around 231k. So that would have to make Donald Trump responsible for about 50% of the US deaths, which is higher than I would be comfortable with. But the year is still young. (Not so much the Covid fatalities. Unlike the soldiers, likely in their twenties, they have a median age in the seventies)

The death toll Trump is personally and directly responsible for is significantly smaller. This study "conclude that the rallies likely led to more than 700 deaths (not necessarily among attendees)."

So how many lives were cost due to the administration's mismanagement and misinformation, compared to a typical administration and an ideal administration? Many factors are not up to an administration anyway, like demographics and geographics, Some a single administration has little influence on, like state of health system, some they have a lot, like pandemic readiness and actual policy when it strikes. As a federal country, state administrations play their part.

The mismanagement is more likely to cost lives earlier on (though there are plenty of opportunities further on), while misinformation have a longer trajectory.  Actual studies a year or two from now will give a more precise estimate, but it would be tens of thousands of deaths directly attributable to the Trump administration, a large proportion to Donald Trump himself.