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Topic: Everything Trump… (Read 22434 times)

  • OakdaleFTL
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Everything Trump…
Too lazy to create a new thread, after earlier (IIRC) pointing out this thread has expired?
:) Yup!
But of course people need a place to vent their spleen... So, consider this an open-ended receptacle.
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • Belfrager
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Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #150
Trump this, Trump that, but the fact is that he made available a financial help to the US that is the TRIPLE* of what the EU did.

* listen to that on tv, while not paying attention, so don't ask me for the source I need to verify it. Doesn't surprise me at all.

A matter of attitude.

  • Frenzie
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  • Administrator
Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #151
I'd say that's a fairly meaningless number in and of itself. We don't need a trillion Dollar emergency plan to implement a facsimile of our existing standards in welfare and health care coverage.

Also every European state probably has at least twice the budget of comparable American states, and the EU conversely quite significantly less than the US federal government. If you can divert a 100 million yourself or if you have to beg for a 100 million from the federal government, the end result comes to about the same.

So without knowing more specifics, it could also be plausible to say only three times as much.

Incidentally, the EU has pledged €15.6 billion to help fight corona abroad. The US $500 million.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_604
https://www.usaid.gov/coronavirus

  • Belfrager
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Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #152
our existing standards in welfare and health care coverage.
the financial help I mentioned is not for hospitals is for the economic ruin that will come out of the corona crisis.
A matter of attitude.

  • ensbb3
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Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #153
Presidential press conferences are getting even more fun. Today's was an absolute shit-show starting out.

I'm no Trump fan, but this isn't the time for the media to do its usual mincing of words with him. It's embarrassing the questions they've asked. If it's not a loaded question, then it seems like they haven't listened to anything said previously. Sometimes only moments ago. What ifs can wait. They only seem to be helping him campaign - and this isn't the time for that either.

He's done some right. Can't agree with everything but the consequences of most of it will take time to even know. In a crisis where what he has said can save lives, what ifs can wait till November. Right now worry about what Congress will do next with bipartisanship deteriorating.

  • ersi
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Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #154
So without knowing more specifics, it could also be plausible to say only three times as much.
The specifics here are that, given the culture in Southern Europe, they should always get more (and they think they deserve ten times more than they get, no matter how much is given). If EU does not step in, somebody else will.

Mafia buying food for Italy's poor to exert more control

Incidentally, the EU has pledged €15.6 billion to help fight corona abroad. The US $500 million.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_604
https://www.usaid.gov/coronavirus
Yes, I have also noticed that EU is doing much more to keep immigrants out before they arrive at the borders than USA is doing :) Sometimes such policies fail, e.g. we failed to keep the wave of Syrians out by attempting to bribe Erdogan (who just took the money and then did not deliver), but yeah, it is a solid part of official policies in EU.

  • Belfrager
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Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #155
given the culture in Southern Europe, they should always get more (and they think they deserve ten times more than they get, no matter how much is given).
oh! look, a new Southern European's specialist was born, God be praised. :angel:
A matter of attitude.

  • ensbb3
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Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #156
The reality show continues. I was wondering what the fallout from yesterday would be. If you want to criticize Trump it's easy to. His pushing of hydroxychloroquine or his apparent ignorance of the Defense Production Act or Having States bid against each other for supplies FEMA should procure and disseminate or the questionable accuracy of testing he's hyped or his actually damaging tweets, like this morning about Governors mutining. Sure most of his tweets are dumb, but that statement shouldn't stand regardless of medium. Where are the legal experts explaining Constitutional Law, procedure and precedence on news reports and to the dumbass reporters? Dr. Fauci is not a politician yet they insist on making him second guess what he says when what is needed his unbiased scientific opinion. Trump stupidly retweets a hashtag and that is what's Important?

Well if 'what ifs' are a thing; What if we had Universal Healthcare? What if the Federal Government saved taxpayer money by not having States bid prices up on each other? What if the media were actually competent??? Would this of been taken serious sooner? Would Trump even be President?

I've been tired of media's dramatizations for a long time... All this has made me outright disgusted. So many things can be done to help educate and inform the people and that will help keep leaders accountable but they just spin their wheels in mud constantly.

/end rant.

  • krake
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Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #157
Yes, I have also noticed that EU is doing much more to keep immigrants out before they arrive at the borders than USA is doing :) Sometimes such policies fail, e.g. we failed to keep the wave of Syrians out by attempting to bribe Erdogan (who just took the money and then did not deliver), but yeah, it is a solid part of official policies in EU.
But we didn't fail in helping to stage a devastating civil war in Syria fought primarily by foreign Djihadists.  All this for our infamous interests.
And since we care so much about the Syrian people we are blessing them even now with drastic economic sanctions.
These are also part of our policies.

As for Erdogan, he has us on the hook. Imagine 4-5 million Syrians flooding our EU-borders! Wonder if you can.
Also wonder what you would do. Send the Wehrmacht?  

  • ersi
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Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #158
Also wonder what you would do. Send the Wehrmacht?
I wonder the same: What would you do? :)

As to the Syrian conflict, I would have liked to see more empowerment for the Kurds. The Kurds were the only ones with the capacity to keep ISIL in line and also the only ones who had the full right to it. That done, it would have been also possible to threaten both the Syrian and Turkish regimes that Kurds would gain their own state at the expense of Iraq, Turkey, and Syria. Instead, EU did everything either weak or wrong in this regard.

EU is bad at wars in general. They allowed the Bosnian war to happen at their doorstep, and they permit ongoing frozen conflict zones in Abkhazia, Tiraspol, now Crimea. They never learn from the past.

As a minimum, I would like to see the kind of humanitarian engagement from EU doctors that Cuba is doing. We don't want to be worse than Cuba, do we?

  • Belfrager
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Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #159
t Cuba is doing. We don't want to be worse than Cuba,
But you are worse then Cuba, Cuba has a long external experience while Ussr satellite in African countries regarding medical staff, teachers/propagandists and military troops and/or advisers near the pro soviet terrorist movements. Cubans were all over the place in Africa.

edit: sorry, than not then
  • Last Edit: 2020-04-15, 14:10:52 by Belfrager
A matter of attitude.

  • Frenzie
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  • Administrator
Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #160
But you are worse then Cuba
To be clear, Portugal joined the EU a little over a month before I was born (1986) and Estonia in 2004.

  • ersi
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Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #161
But you are worse then Cuba
To be clear, Portugal joined the EU a little over a month before I was born (1986) and Estonia in 2004.
Hah, right. And in 1986 Estonia was still under USSR occupation. That's how I know about Cuban doctors in the first place, by the way.

But you are right, Belfrager. We (Estonia, Portugal, EU) are much worse in this aspect than Cuba. We are not even close as good.

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #162
Presidential press conferences are getting even more fun. Today's was an absolute shit-show starting out.
It is a greater risk to your health to listen to Trump than not to listen to Trump. But it seems that US media have the worst of both worlds. They attend the press conference with "critical" questions, and then allegedly at least CNN skip the medical part. Good for the ratings and the clicks I suppose.

Trump has been great for the "mainstream" media. He is living clickbait. This disease on the other hand is a killer. Nobody is advertising , so unless they have subscription income, they are slaves to the ratings and the hope the advertisers come back. Of course you have that political blockbuster coming up, but even that too is in a lull right now. A former Sanders spokesperson is too obscure to drive up conflicts, clicks, and not the least advertisers. So they go to those press conferences though nobody enjoys it.

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #163
As to the Syrian conflict, I would have liked to see more empowerment for the Kurds. The Kurds were the only ones with the capacity to keep ISIL in line and also the only ones who had the full right to it. That done, it would have been also possible to threaten both the Syrian and Turkish regimes that Kurds would gain their own state at the expense of Iraq, Turkey, and Syria. Instead, EU did everything either weak or wrong in this regard.

EU is bad at wars in general. They allowed the Bosnian war to happen at their doorstep, and they permit ongoing frozen conflict zones in Abkhazia, Tiraspol, now Crimea. They never learn from the past.

As a minimum, I would like to see the kind of humanitarian engagement from EU doctors that Cuba is doing. We don't want to be worse than Cuba, do we?

The EU war ministry is NATO. That won't change even with the US effectively suspended. Only three countries can project force the former colonial powers of France, UK and US. That won't change either. Germany won't be on that list. Our nuclear umbrella might shift from American to French.  Guess we all have to brush up our French soon.

The US is leaving the Middle East. That is irreversible, no matter if who will be in power. They will be preoccupied with East and South Asia as long as we are alive, leaving West Asia mostly behind. The religious nutters might still want to stage the final battle at Harmageddon, but that will be without the US Army. Europe and the Middle East are neighbours, and share culture and history. Will we fill up the void? You know we won't. Russia and China don't want to be seriously involved, and it won't be India's port of call either. The major powers IN the Middle East don't seem capable to resolve the situations either.

EU doesn't do wars, and didn't even exist when the Yugoslav wars began. But Post-Yugoslavia has been a modest success for the EU. All is not well on the Balkans front, but compared with practically anywhere else, it is still pretty good. Ukraine and Georgia is located in "anywhere else" in this context, not so good. Won't happen fast, particularly not with a Putinista in the White House, but time is on our side.

Of course there are no "EU doctors", but doctors from EU member countries, and they would rarely be marketed as such. It may be a weakness that they don't come with a propaganda attachment, though EU as an aggregate is a humanitarian superpower. The rest of the world is now facing what the EU, and more recently the US, has faced. There will be capacity and there will be a need.

  • Belfrager
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Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #164
Nobody is advertising
That's a major problem for the free press and a serious risk for democracies.

In fact, the press has already shown, during this virus situation, to be the biggest destabilizer factor for people's serenity and an open door to supporting the establishment of repression practices by governments. The less money they have the worst they'll be.
A matter of attitude.

  • ersi
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Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #165
The EU war ministry is NATO. That won't change even with the US effectively suspended.
Yes, the EU war ministry is NATO, but with the US effectively suspended, the policies of NATO can be changed by whoever is left in charge and we'd better do it. These matters should not be left to the likes of W and Trump.

The US is leaving the Middle East. That is irreversible, no matter if who will be in power.
The US will forever have its meddlings in the Middle East whenever another opportunity presents itself. If not the US, then Israel, which is the same thing because these two go together.

But Post-Yugoslavia has been a modest success for the EU.
The only success is that wars have not recurred in the area for a while. It would be a better success if Bosnia had been built up with all the investments that have gone into it, but the investments have vanished instead.

Most recently Slovenia, lest you cite it as another post-Yugoslavian success story, has made a rapid turn towards a Hungary-like regime under Janša. This has been possible due to the sick way EU governs its periphery - by rigid diktat over local regulations, instead of harmonising the way external and global business and geopolitical forces are allowed to operate in periphery, which is markedly different from the core EU3 or in the "old members" or whatever to call it.

We in the periphery get that EU regulations should be harmonised and this has been done. But why the hell is e.g. Google News and Youtube main page in the Baltics suggesting near-exclusively Russian material out of the box? Why cannot we get stuff from Amazon under the same terms as Germans get them? Are we not supposed to be a single economic area among euro-currency countries? Why are border policies imposed on us without any regard to obvious threats such as Russia under Putin or the wave of Syrian immigrants? EU has managed these issues so miserably that even in Estonia we have a Trump-style party in the government right now. Luckily the PM is not of the same party, and not a Trumpite to the least bit, but he is in dire straits.

The EU treats its periphery as remote periphery, not as an organic shelter of its own heart. One can be the member of the euro club and swallow all the directives ahead of due date, but none of it matters when one is a "new member" at the periphery. We are like tiny little colonies to them. We are still treated as more of a stranger than Russia, more of a stranger than Turkey, more of a stranger than UK and USA. Wtf?!

Yeah, I know this will never change, because if there were some such ability, the EU would have learned from some of its egregious past mistakes such as the ones cited. My policy suggestion for my own country is to behave the way Southern Europe is doing: Say yes to everything, accept all the money, ask for even more, but do whatever is appropriate in our own particular interests and be happy with it. The feudal style of governance by EU directly requires a rebel serf style of response at the periphery. Of course this is destructive, but its EU's own destruction. EU never listened when we were absolutely right and never learned from the mistake when they were absolutely wrong, so let's not waste any more good effort in that direction.

  • ensbb3
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Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #166
It is a greater risk to your health to listen to Trump than not to listen to Trump.
His babbling is definitely dangerously misleading. He has said and enacted things like the stay home/social distancing, travel bans and encouragement by trying to give hope that things will get better, help will come. Said he trusts his medical experts who do a fair job of clarifying his townie-speak on issues and attempt to help keep panic in check. The caveat being of course he blast straight into his opinions that completely undermine any good he may of done.

But yea. listening to him wholly has an overall negative benefit to public safety. Contradictions and schoolyard name calling overshadow any serious leadership. The President's embarrassing, Congressional leaders are embarrassing, Re-reporters are re-retarded... Hell my hillbilly Governor is embarrassing. And not one worthy candidate has been able to make gains by showing they could act to do any better as elections for many loom.
  • Last Edit: 2020-04-17, 02:55:50 by ensbb3

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #167
The US will forever have its meddlings in the Middle East whenever another opportunity presents itself. If not the US, then Israel, which is the same thing because these two go together.

That is Netanyahu's biggest policy blunder, and he has made too many to count. He has tied himself to the anchor of USNS Trump. Democratic support for him, and for Israel, is decaying. From a very high point, mind you, but the trend is clear. Israel has neglected the party that is likely to dominate US politics for some time, and Netanyahu is going to hurt Israel long after he's gone. In that regard President Biden is the best thing that could happen to Israel. He is an old-time Democrat and Israel loyalist. A later (and much younger) Democratic president will not be so easy to handle.

Republican support is likely to remain solid, particularly with the White Evangelicals who are becoming quite interchangeable with the MAGAs. The deplorable contingent is not so keen, but can come around due to all those Muslims around Israel (still stunning how far and fast antisemitism has grown in the US since about 2015; Trump didn't cause it, but is part of the same wave). 

The US is following the path of Europe, only with a delay of about 30 years. 50 years ago mainstream European support for Israel was hardcore, unquestioning. The far left was taking over from the far right in their support of Palestine and criticism of Israel (suspect Soviet involvement, but there probably were many factors). Now the European love for Israel is at best conditional. 

Saudi-Arabia has been more clever, they have oiled Democratic and Republican pockets alike. Trump's polarising effect may hurt the Saudis too. Rank-and-file Democrats (and Republicans as well) are not so sweet on the Oil Kingdom. The halo of MBS, once the object of so many fawning articles, has been shred. Will take a lot of money, or a successful coup, to fix that. 

US policy in the Middle East will not fundamentally change, it just will grow more distant with time. The EU won't have that distance. Our border is just 100 miles from Syria (and 200 miles from Libya). "Peace in the Middle East" is a vanity project for US presidents. For us it is a long-term necessity.   

  • krake
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Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #168
It is a greater risk to your health to listen to Trump than not to listen to Trump.


  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #169
We in the periphery get that EU regulations should be harmonised and this has been done. But why the hell is e.g. Google News and Youtube main page in the Baltics suggesting near-exclusively Russian material out of the box? Why cannot we get stuff from Amazon under the same terms as Germans get them? Are we not supposed to be a single economic area among euro-currency countries? Why are border policies imposed on us without any regard to obvious threats such as Russia under Putin or the wave of Syrian immigrants? EU has managed these issues so miserably that even in Estonia we have a Trump-style party in the government right now. Luckily the PM is not of the same party, and not a Trumpite to the least bit, but he is in dire straits.

The EU treats its periphery as remote periphery, not as an organic shelter of its own heart. One can be the member of the euro club and swallow all the directives ahead of due date, but none of it matters when one is a "new member" at the periphery. We are like tiny little colonies to them. We are still treated as more of a stranger than Russia, more of a stranger than Turkey, more of a stranger than UK and USA. Wtf?!

Yeah, I know this will never change, because if there were some such ability, the EU would have learned from some of its egregious past mistakes such as the ones cited. My policy suggestion for my own country is to behave the way Southern Europe is doing: Say yes to everything, accept all the money, ask for even more, but do whatever is appropriate in our own particular interests and be happy with it. The feudal style of governance by EU directly requires a rebel serf style of response at the periphery. Of course this is destructive, but its EU's own destruction. EU never listened when we were absolutely right and never learned from the mistake when they were absolutely wrong, so let's not waste any more good effort in that direction.

Centre-periphery is a major tension inside the EU, more important than e.g. the tension small and large countries. possibly more even than geographic subdivision (North vs South, East vs West). The centre of EU will remain in Western Europe, that's where the most people and the most money reside, and communications are the best. We in the north might decry France. People in the south might decry Germany (and people in Italy decry the Netherlands), but that won't change matters. Estonia could try to get a bigger population (e.g. take in more refugees) or grow rich quick (with the political influence that provides), but it would remain periphery. In a bigger context the periphery is not necessarily so peripheral. Greece is peripheral, but closest to Asia and East Africa. Portugal is closest to South America and West Africa, Estonia to Moscow.

The EU is "feudal" only in the sense that in extremely feudalistic societies the highest level of power (i.e. the king) had preciously little direct power. The real power lied with the nobles, sometimes even their vassals. That is close to my preferred model of the EU, as a treaty organisation, a Hanseatic League if you wish. Such an organisation cannot do what you here ask it to do.

The real EU is slightly more of a supernational organisation, but again the power lies with the EU members, not the EU itself.

  • Belfrager
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Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #170
but again the power lies with the EU members, not the EU itself.
The power lies with some EU members. It is not a one-man (country)-one-vote organization. Smaller, peripheric countries need to be smarter than the central pachyderms.
A matter of attitude.

  • rjhowie
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Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #171
Russia and Putin are a threat to us? Typical Western propaganda doing well
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ersi
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Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #172
The real power lied with the nobles, sometimes even their vassals. That is close to my preferred model of the EU, as a treaty organisation, a Hanseatic League if you wish. Such an organisation cannot do what you here ask it to do.
Hanseatic League had nothing feudal about it. It was a treaty organisation of merchants, trading both among themselves and the rest of the  world. I wish EU were something about a set of rules for merchants, but it isn't. If EU were like Hanseatic league, Apple would be unable to get tax breaks in Ireland and Amazon and Google should be following the same rules in every member country, but they don't.

EU is a club of technocrats making rules about budgets, tariffs, and their own club meetings. They do not have any noticeable economic goals, except fiscal and statistical. Much less do they have any external policy goals, yet they have taken away external policy from individual countries.

EU has achieved unity in some irrelevant statistical ideals for themselves, and they are merrily ready to stifle internal small and medium enterprises and any lesser member states with it. This only manages to break down the local integrity outside the centre and thus also any sense of unity within EU. Therefore whenever Russia or USA or Google or Amazon wants to demolish the EU for their own policy goals, they can do it. You see, Russia, USA, Google, Amazon etc. happen to have  clear policy goals, economic goals such as how to create a market and exploit it as thoroughly as possible. If EU is not up to responding to this (and it keeps proving that it is not), then it is not worth having.

There had to be, absolutely had to be a common policy and solidarity about how to meet Syrian refugees and now how to deal with the pandemic, to help the countries where the threat is most immediate. Total fail. EU is nothing when it comes to things that matter.  

The real EU is slightly more of a supernational organisation, but again the power lies with the EU members, not the EU itself.
EU skeptics and enthusiasts alike are correct that EU is, for practical purposes, a federal country with an undisputed capital, certainly when it comes to the eurozone. Within eurozone, bookkeeping is in the hands of Germany and France who call the shots for the rest of the eurozone members. Sweden and Norway are outside, so maybe you do not feel this as sharply. Poland, Czech, and Hungary are also outside, and they can see very well what is happening around them to those who are inside the eurozone. And they use their chance to rebel. Not that rebellion is good and smart, but that rebellion is the only way to demonstrate independence or at least autonomy. The feudal attitude by EU has taken away the opportunity to have peaceful and harmonious autonomy.

Russia and Putin are a threat to us? Typical Western propaganda doing well
Says the guy who watches the propaganda channel RT.

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #173
but again the power lies with the EU members, not the EU itself.
The power lies with some EU members. It is not a one-man (country)-one-vote organization. Smaller, peripheric countries need to be smarter than the central pachyderms.

I could agree with that. E3 (Britain, France, Germany) have called the shots. Now that Britain has been kicked out, the dynamics have changed. The E2+1 don't have voting majority in the EU anymore. If the rest of EU voted against France and Germany, they would win. Of course that won't happen. Some of us would gripe against France, others against Germany. Regionalism hasn't happened much either. It might make sense that e.g. Portugal and Spain cooperated, or Sweden and Denmark. In practice half the time, thereabout, they have politically opposed governments, and politics trumps geography. And every few months there is a new election somewhere in Europe. 

  • Belfrager
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Re: Everything Trump…
Reply #174
There had to be, absolutely had to be a common policy and solidarity about how to meet Syrian refugees and now how to deal with the pandemic, to help the countries where the threat is most immediate. Total fail. EU is nothing when it comes to things that matter.
The only thing that solves your problem would be the United States of Europe, with a central government and local governors to ensure the same policies are applied equally all over Europe. But then you'll need a central army also, isn't it?
Never. The last thing we need is some Nordic Trump.
Federalism is intolerable. The EU most be limited to economic/monetarist issues.
A matter of attitude.