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Topic: Keeping an eye on the Vivaldi Browser (Read 17159 times)

  • jax
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Keeping an eye on the Vivaldi Browser
A thread on developments with the Vivaldi browsers from Vivaldi Technologies. This continues the Vivaldi Technical Preview Released thread.Vivaldi Technical Preview Released 



  • ersi
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Re: Keeping an eye on the Vivaldi Browser
Reply #75
So you guys are friends :) (I assume he doesn't mean you every time he says "Linux idiots" and "open source f-kheads".)

This is a good overview of the desktop environment navigation efficiency routines that he has worked out. He even hates Alt Tab and instead uses mousehover to raise (and focus?) windows, so it's good that in my tiling window manager setup I have ended up without an Alt Tab or Win Tab key combo. I think that mousehover to focus (and also automove mouse to focused window) makes best sense in tiling window managers. When I am in a floating desktop environment, particularly on a big enough screen, I prefer to keep raise and focus as separate events.



His layout and the way he switches between windows, it seems to me that a good interface for him would be tabbed layout. In i3wm, you can create a tabbed layout either over entire screen (which is basically all windows maximised and on top of each other) or to any part/corner of the screen (as in the bottom right corner in the picture below - if you look carefully you see two tabs/titlebars above the terminals, indicating two terminals on top of each other). And then you can switch and cycle between them either by pressing the tabs/titlebars, by scroll on the tabs/titlebars, or by keybinds.



He keeps badmouthing tiling window managers across several videos, but I still haven't got the specific objection. Maybe I need to watch all of them. Quite entertaining every time he gets distracted.

  • Frenzie
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Re: Keeping an eye on the Vivaldi Browser
Reply #76
When I am in a floating desktop environment, particularly on a big enough screen, I prefer to keep raise and focus as separate events.
Me too, but one thing I do actually enjoy a fair bit is per-monitor focus depending on which monitor your mouse is on. I haven't investigated if I can get that without using Synergy because it's not too bothersome. It's a bit like switching between multiple workspaces.

http://xahlee.info/linux/why_tiling_window_manager_sucks.html

  • ersi
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Re: Keeping an eye on the Vivaldi Browser
Reply #77
So had a bad experience with Xmonad. There are two kinds of tiling window managers: Master-and-stack layout versus manual placement. I did not get quite on board with the master-and-stack, such as Xmonad or Dwm. I (very much want to) like Awesomewm as a good compromise between floating and tiling, e.g. Awesomewm has true minimise that is generally missing in tiling window managers, but there's that master-and-stack again.

With manual placement (such as i3wm and bspwm) you can open a new window wherever your focus is at the moment. A master-and-stack layout cannot halve the master side of the monitor for a new window, but i3wm and bspwm can halve any side or corner. And i3wm can do tabbed layout too, i.e. you can start opening new overlapping windows over a particular window at any point. In my i3wm setup, my main layout is tabbed, i.e. all windows open maximised, but I can arbitrarily halve one or some of them at any point.

As to switching between windows, the fastest way to flip through the entire workspace is a mouse scroll on the statusbar/taskbar/titlebars, if you are precise with this operation. This of course presupposes configuring the corresponding statusbar/taskbar or the availability of titlebars. Titlebars are available in i3wm and mouse scroll on them to flip through windows is enabled out of the box, but I have the mouse scroll turned off. I switch between windows either by hover (focus-follows-mouse enabled, of course) or mod+arrow (and since my windows are usually all maximised and overlapping, I don't have to think which arrow to use). If there are windows across multiple workspaces, I bring up Rofi to switch windows.

As to too many windows, yup, there will easily be too many on a single screen if you refuse to make use of multiple workspaces. A tiling window manager almost forces you to make use of multiple workspaces and, if that's not your thing, then tiling window managers cannot be your thing. My tabbed setup mitigates the need for multiple workspaces, but I still definitely use them several times a week.

In a multi-monitor setup, I really prefer the way tiling window managers switch workspaces on a per-monitor basis, instead of changing to a new workspace on all monitors the way floating DE's do. And on a scenario where I disconnect one of the monitors, its windows become another neat workspace on an available monitor, preserving the window layout/arrangement, instead of getting totally messed up the way they do on MS Windows.

His challenge is nice. I have my own workflow scenario that is neatly solved by a tiling window manager:

1. Have two windows side by side, using available space maximally.
2. Maximise one of the windows.
3. Now maximise the other window.
4. Position them back as in point 1.

A floating desktop environment is more trouble already at point 1, because to get two windows occupy halves of the screen is a special operation by mousedrags or keybinds and this operation cannot be bound to a single key as far as I know. Moreover, you have to go through this for each of the windows separately. In a tiling window manager, just open two windows and they tile themselves.

Second, to maximise a window, you have to first select/focus it. This much works presumably equally well in both tiling and floating environment. Then, maximise is trivial on a floating window manager, whereas tiling window managers have various workarounds for that - there usually is no true minimise or maximise in tiling window managers, and no layer/raise/lower either.[1] In most tiling window managers, to get one window to maximise, you'd need to actually go to the other window and move it away to some background workspace. Overall, this is still an operation of the exact same level of complexity: Select and do.

Or, in a tiling window manager it can be an even simpler operation by switching the desktop layout style from tiled to "monocle" or "tabbed" (or whatever else they can be called, different terms and slightly different functions in different window managers), which automatically maximises the currently focused window and leaves the other to the background.

Third, in a floating desktop environment, if you did stuff to one window, nothing presumably happened to the other window, so it is a separate operation to both select and maximise the other window. Whereas in a tiling window manager, the other window is already maximised in the background so, for point 3, in a tiling window manager you need to just switch to the other window.

Fourth, in a floating desktop environment you need to go through point 1 again with mousedrags or keybinds for two windows separately - or, in a best case, un-maximise them each separately. In a tiling window manager, the operation would be,
- if the other window is on another workspace, bring it to the current workspace (and the two windows tile themselves automatically) or
- go with the current window to the other workspace (and the two windows tile themselves automatically) or
- if you did point 2 by switching the layout style from tiled to monocle or tabbed, switch it back to tiled.
Multiple floating windows are possible, but do not make sense in a tiling window manager. Only Awesomewm has true maximise, minimise, raise and lower, even named as such, making elaborate floating of multiple windows manageable, except why do it, when it is really a tiling window manager.

  • Frenzie
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Re: Keeping an eye on the Vivaldi Browser
Reply #78
As to too many windows, yup, there will easily be too many on a single screen if you refuse to make use of multiple workspaces. A tiling window manager almost forces you to make use of multiple workspaces and, if that's not your thing, then tiling window managers cannot be your thing. My tabbed setup mitigates the need for multiple workspaces, but I still definitely use them several times a week.
When working I like to have two contexts. I wouldn't like being forced to use more either.

this operation cannot be bound to a single key as far as I know.
Not sure what you mean? The primary reason I use Win+left/right arrow or quick drag is because being different just for the sake of being different makes it harder to use Windows. It's not quite important enough to sacrifice any precious F-keys to.

Keep in mind that through the likes of KWin and/or Devilspie2 you can set up a lot of auto-placement much the same as you can in your better tiling window managers. You're likely aware, but I've noticed some people mentioning that kind of thing as an advantage when they're just betraying they never thought to try in a regular WM. :)

Or, in a tiling window manager it can be an even simpler operation by switching the desktop layout style from tiled to "monocle" or "tabbed" (or whatever else they can be called, different terms and slightly different functions in different window managers), which automatically maximises the currently focused window and leaves the other to the background.
Well, this is normally considered a feature, at least by those of use who use floating WMs. Things stay where you put them. Incidentally even Windows has many third party apps to provide all kinds of things like this. Windows itself, however, has broken basic functionality like Control+click on the taskbar since Vista.

  • ersi
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Re: Keeping an eye on the Vivaldi Browser
Reply #79
The primary reason I use Win+left/right arrow or quick drag is because being different just for the sake of being different makes it harder to use Windows. It's not quite important enough to sacrifice any precious F-keys to.
I understand. It boils down to the calculation how often you need two windows side by side, arranged neatly. In my workflow, that's how I'd like the computer to boot up, really, and a tiling window manager gets very close to that. It's not for the sake of being different, but having a setup I can call home and stop tinkering, finally.

Keep in mind that through the likes of KWin and/or Devilspie2 you can set up a lot of auto-placement much the same as you can in your better tiling window managers. You're likely aware, but I've noticed some people mentioning that kind of thing as an advantage when they're just betraying they never thought to try in a regular WM.
My path to tiling window managers went gradually through tools like those. I implemented various tiling layouts in Openbox too. But at heart it is still a floatie, e.g. there is no sticky-shared window border. Edit2: and now this, and I'd say it's not in line with the thing's identity and will forever remain convoluted and buggy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8N3F826XNk

Well, this is normally considered a feature, at least by those of use who use floating WMs. Things stay where you put them.
Understood. And in tiling window managers the sticky-shared window border (i.e. when you have two windows side by side, resize them both at once by dragging a single border) is a feature, not an afterthought or a third-party slap-on. It was a simple calculation of how often I need such arrangement and tiling window managers won easily.

Edit: And how do Emacs' window panes work? They look (gasp) more tiled than not. Yes, you can detach a pane to a new floating frame, but I can do the same in a tiling window manager in the rare use cases, which are actually entertainment cases, such as having a little video play in some corner of the screen.
  • Last Edit: 2021-12-25, 14:10:14 by ersi