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Poll

Should they assimilate culturally?

  • No doubt.
    0 (0%)
  • Most certainly.
    0 (0%)
  • I'm not sure.
    1 (50%)
  • Partially, or maybe not.. ???
    0 (0%)
  • They don't have to. :beard:
    1 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 2

Topic: Immigrants (Read 6297 times)

  • Banned Member
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Immigrants
Just recently, I was listening to a "community radio" from Gloucester. What was that community? For hours and hours it sounded as if I listened to a Jamaican radio. I have nothing against Jamaicans, even less against Reggae. But you know what?
I don't like a country with deep traditions, its own indigenous culture etc., I wouldn't like to see it boil into a sort of unintelligible vinaigrette, multicultural farrago!..
Sure, the USA is a different case, but what about those 'good ole' nations in Europe? Africa and Asia can be losing their "God given" cultural identity too, but for other reasons, I guess.
So, many people from different (and differing) cultures are allowed into and enter such a country. What then? Should they learn and adopt the host country's spirit? Because I tend to think that unless that, there's a possibilty to the people who've lived there for generations to get things the other way round. Dissolution? :rip:

  • Macallan
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Re: Immigrants
Reply #25

By "Immigrants" I presume it refers to those who come to a country to become it's citizens. In my view such people should most definitely learn the language and respect it's culture.

I agree, at the very least they should be able to communicate with the authorities, potential employers etc. without too much hassle.
I'm not so sure about 'respecting the culture' though. Sure, when in Rome do as the Romans. To a degree.


But I'd not go so far as insisting that they loose their root culture as well for that would diminish the refreshing of the host country. For example no more St Patrick's Day in New York.

Berlin would be a much more boring place if all the Turks there suddenly became 100% germanized :right:

  • Belfrager
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Re: Immigrants
Reply #26
Still costs a pile of money and a lot of patience though.

It's totally absurd.
A friend of mine, working as a director for an American company here, was invited to direct some project in the USA for the same company. He showed me the size of the dossier that the company's lawyers had to prepare so he could get a residence and work permit there.
The easiest thing was to demonstrate that the work couldn't be done by any American...

I would never have patience for such a thing.
It doesn't surprise me at all. Such policies are what American consulting companies are selling to third world governments these days, as for example Angola. It seems that they also sell it to their own Government...
A matter of attitude.

  • Macallan
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Re: Immigrants
Reply #27

Still costs a pile of money and a lot of patience though.

It's totally absurd.

Indeed. You should have seen the spanish inquisition I had to go through in 2003 in Amsterdam just to get on a plane to the US.
Typical american though - overreacting & security theatre. On my 2nd trip, this time from Frankfurt, things were much more relaxed.


A friend of mine, working as a director for an American company here, was invited to direct some project in the USA for the same company. He showed me the size of the dossier that the company's lawyers had to prepare so he could get a residence and work permit there.
The easiest thing was to demonstrate that the work couldn't be done by any American...

That's beyond ridiculous.


I would never have patience for such a thing.

Things certainly got worse. 10 years ago you could get on a plane to the US ( as an EU citizen at least ), fill in some ridiculous form on the way ( Did you take part in world war II on the axis side? Were you a member of the nazi party? Are you a dirty communist? Do you plan to overthrow the US government? Are you the world's dumbest wannabe terrorist? ) and get the equivalent of a tourist visa. Now everything has to be pre-screened.


It doesn't surprise me at all. Such policies are what American consulting companies are selling to third world governments these days, as for example Angola. It seems that they also sell it to their own Government...

Institutionalized paranoia. Security theatre. Harass regular travellers in order to somehow get the illegal ones.

  • Frenzie
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Re: Immigrants
Reply #28
I agree, at the very least they should be able to communicate with the authorities, potential employers etc. without too much hassle.

I don't know if this is still the case, but when I still lived in the Netherlands a few years ago, tons of former East German builders were working in the country. There was no work where they were from, but they were professional tradesmen. Communication went perfectly in extremely broken German coupled with hand gestures.

When my uncle led building projects in Saudi Arabia, do you think any of the mostly Filipino workers spoke Arabian, French, or even English? No, the foremen spoke some broken Engrish or Flench and that was good enough.

None of this is remotely as problematic as is claimed.

You want people to speak the language properly? Offer free language courses. And don't forget about night courses. Most of these people have work to do during the day.

Legal immigration is already practically impossible. Yet they want to make it even harder. It's insane and it would be our downfall if we didn't have intra-EU immigration.

Things certainly got worse. 10 years ago you could get on a plane to the US ( as an EU citizen at least ), fill in some ridiculous form on the way ( Did you take part in world war II on the axis side? Were you a member of the nazi party? Are you a dirty communist? Do you plan to overthrow the US government? Are you the world's dumbest wannabe terrorist? ) and get the equivalent of a tourist visa. Now everything has to be pre-screened.

It was still that way in 2008. I think it was in '09 when they changed things. They gave me a visa for free then, which expired two years ago. Next time I'll have to pay via credit card. Honestly, these people want to kill tourism. I'm not going to beg just so I can spend my money in the US.

The questions they ask are incredibly idiotic, myopic nonsense.

  • Belfrager
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Re: Immigrants
Reply #29
Institutionalized paranoia. Security theatre.

That's half of the problem, the other half being consulting business.

People are not realizing how much consulting business is affecting their lives, rights and freedoms.
Policies, business and economical activities all over the world are being defined by consultant companies. The same consultant companies.
Banking, Insurance, Government processes, everything is being defined by the same guys.

The more institutionalized paranoia and security theater makes part of people's life the more governments hires consulting companies. Immigration regulations are the perfect place to do experiments, nobody has no one to complain about.
A matter of attitude.

  • Macallan
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Re: Immigrants
Reply #30

I agree, at the very least they should be able to communicate with the authorities, potential employers etc. without too much hassle.

I don't know if this is still the case, but when I still lived in the Netherlands a few years ago, tons of former East German builders were working in the country. There was no work where they were from, but they were professional tradesmen. Communication went perfectly in extremely broken German coupled with hand gestures.

When my uncle led building projects in Saudi Arabia, do you think any of the mostly Filipino workers spoke Arabian, French, or even English? No, the foremen spoke some broken Engrish or Flench and that was good enough.

None of this is remotely as problematic as is claimed.

Well, they were able to communicate with employers, authorities etc. in some way.
( you don't seriously expect me to disagree with you on this one, do you? :p )


Things certainly got worse. 10 years ago you could get on a plane to the US ( as an EU citizen at least ), fill in some ridiculous form on the way ( Did you take part in world war II on the axis side? Were you a member of the nazi party? Are you a dirty communist? Do you plan to overthrow the US government? Are you the world's dumbest wannabe terrorist? ) and get the equivalent of a tourist visa. Now everything has to be pre-screened.

It was still that way in 2008. I think it was in '09 when they changed things. They gave me a visa for free then, which expired two years ago. Next time I'll have to pay via credit card. Honestly, these people want to kill tourism. I'm not going to beg just so I can spend my money in the US.

These days you even need a passport to get to Canada. And not because the Canadians want it :faint:


The questions they ask are incredibly idiotic, myopic nonsense.

Yeah, I always wondered what the hell they tried to accomplish with these questions. Nobody in his/her/its right mind would check Yes, I do plan to overthrow the US government.

  • jax
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Re: Immigrants
Reply #31

I don't know if this is still the case, but when I still lived in the Netherlands a few years ago, tons of former East German builders were working in the country. There was no work where they were from, but they were professional tradesmen. Communication went perfectly in extremely broken German coupled with hand gestures.

When my uncle led building projects in Saudi Arabia, do you think any of the mostly Filipino workers spoke Arabian, French, or even English? No, the foremen spoke some broken Engrish or Flench and that was good enough.

None of this is remotely as problematic as is claimed.

You want people to speak the language properly? Offer free language courses. And don't forget about night courses. Most of these people have work to do during the day.

Some Norwegians were annoyed by an ad for construction workers where there was a language requirement, the applicants had to speak fluent Polish. That made perfect sense, Poles is probably the greatest group of construction workers in Norway, unfortunately very few Norwegians without Polish ancestry speak that language.

Then again, they were reconstructing my building in Oslo recently, the workers were Polish, Swedish, and Norwegian, and they got the job done just fine. The foreman was British I guess, but spoke fluent Norwegian with just a trace of an accent.

In Prague I've known foreigners over decades, a few get completely fluent, some get to a decent level, some pass by, many have just a rudimentary command of Czech, and a few don't even have that. European and North American immigrants mostly speak English well, but Asian immigrants may not necessarily (some of these speak Russian though). Ukrainians have the same roles in the Czech Republic as Poles have in Norway. The children are all speaking Czech well, and usually a couple more languages as well.

That said, not speaking Czech puts them at a significant disadvantage, and Czech Bureacratese is brutal.

Norway has reduced their language service, which I consider somewhat idiotic. If anyone is willing to learn Norwegian that should be encouraged, it's not exactly the most popular language in the world. Though in typical Norwegian fashion they have made the language classes as expensive for the state as possible.

  • Frenzie
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Re: Immigrants
Reply #32
Yeah, I always wondered what the hell they tried to accomplish with these questions. Nobody in his/her/its right mind would check Yes, I do plan to overthrow the US government.

Not just on the forms, but also at the border itself. How much money do you have on you? How many credit cards do you have? You answer truthfully (about $50, I think; one credit card), but what on earth is behind asking that? Everybody knows ATMs in the country of destination are the best way to get the local currency*, and only in the US do they have this ludicrous idea that credit is a good thing on general principle. Also, some of the questions seemed to imply I might want to remain in the US illegally. Why on earth would I want to stay illegally when in a worst case scenario I can get significantly better welfare at home?

Basically, there is this Visa Waiver Program. If you charge me for this Visa Waiver, it's just a visa by another name. If you ask me all kinds of stupid questions, it's just a visa by another name. Visas themselves are probably a Bad Thing, but I suggest not giving me the visa experience if you claim to waive my visa.

* Although in the US the banks charge for it, so perhaps that's not actually true in this particular instance. On the other hand, why would I want to carry $1000 or more all at once.

  • Macallan
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Re: Immigrants
Reply #33

Yeah, I always wondered what the hell they tried to accomplish with these questions. Nobody in his/her/its right mind would check Yes, I do plan to overthrow the US government.

Not just on the forms, but also at the border itself. How much money do you have on you? How many credit cards do you have? You answer truthfully (about $50, I think; one credit card), but what on earth is behind asking that?

Probably just to make you uncomfortable and see how you respond. Then again, I'm probably giving them too much credit :right:


Everybody knows ATMs in the country of destination are the best way to get the local currency*, and only in the US do they have this ludicrous idea that credit is a good thing on general principle.

Indeed. Why pay exchange offices which likely charge more than an ATM?


Also, some of the questions seemed to imply I might want to remain in the US illegally. Why on earth would I want to stay illegally when in a worst case scenario I can get significantly better welfare at home?

And why would you tell them if you did?


* Although in the US the banks charge for it, so perhaps that's not actually true in this particular instance. On the other hand, why would I want to carry $1000 or more all at once.

Depends on the bank. Some charge more, others charge less, Washington Mutual used to charge nothing.
And of course you'd carry a wad of cash just to look suspicious :right:

  • Frenzie
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Re: Immigrants
Reply #34
Probably just to make you uncomfortable and see how you respond. Then again, I'm probably giving them too much credit

Probably. :D

And why would you tell them if you did?

These underpaid near-minimum wage employees are obviously well-trained in microexpressions. :right: