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Topic: The Problem with Atheism (Read 166591 times)

  • Frenzie
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The Problem with Atheism

  • string
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #25


Well I'm agnostic, which accepts that neither religion nor atheism can prove they are right.


That's not exactly Agnosticism...

Agnosticism it's different and consists in realizing that the ultimate truths, as the existence or not of God, are inaccessible to the human spirit. It realizes perfectly the paradox of God's definition (in the sense of a total and global human mental comprehension) and basically adopts a posture of "denial of knowledge" - A-Gnosis, therefore the word. An agnostic knows that he can't ever know.

It's the maximum expression of Man's finitude and insignificance and a refusal and disbelief about the possibility of Man's divine origin and soul.

A very different thing from what I see people normally using it, which is just a form of dismissal attitude - I don't know and I find it futile to know.
Actually I wasn't trying to define the meaning of Agnostic but just one aspect of thinking. But if someone wants to drag some flawed definition out for view then I retreat and shall call myself an agnostic Agnostic which means to me that I see no proven benefit in believing one way or the other and certainly not a denial of ultimate truth where there is no such thing.

  • string
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #26

Quote from: String
Of the two, the atheist viewpoint has logic on its side.


OK, being empirical evidence back then was impossible to glean, explain the logic in how:

  Time, space, and matter came into existence by themselves.
  Planets and stars formed from space dust.
  Matter created life by itself.
  Early life-forms learned to reproduce themselves.
  Major changes occurred between these diverse life forms (i.e., fish changed to amphibians, amphibians changed to reptiles, and reptiles changed to birds or mammals).

None of the above proves that God exists, but as an Agnostic the proposition of His existence should pose stronger than the doubt of His existence.


All those questions, possibly bar the first, have some form of scientific hypothesis based on observation of the World or Universe around us. unlike deities they can be tested against the observable world.

The first is interesting because it is not obvious that it is a valid question. The concept of things having a beginning and an end is essentially anthropermorphic. How can we know that there was a point in time when things "began"?

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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #27
1. I'm neither. Maybe skeptic or schizoph... Ok...
2. They weren't questions, string. And, as a linguist I clearly see what's wrong with the very approach: the approach implies that "there must be a CONSCIOUS force", that without such [CONSCIOUS!] a force even a chicken won't lay. Such an approach reveals an obviously mythological thinking, i.e. like a child unable to CLEARLY tell between what is real and what is not.

Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #28
Quote from: Macallan
.... why would I want to believe in your god?.....
..... So does Vishnu. Why should I believe in your god instead of Vishnu?

Who, or what you personally believe in is between you & yourself. I don't seek to affect any of your beliefs, even if I could.

I never demanded or even asked you to believe in, or not in believe, in God or any Supreme Being.

Secondly, what you do believe in, or for that matter, what you do not believe in, is simply not my concern or care.

The only thing I requested from you was to disprove the existence of God........period.

You chose not to for 2 reasons.......because you didn't want to, & because I didn't fulfill your prerequisites,  which I contend, you inserted because you figured it was a clever way of avoiding the proposition to disprove the unprovable......the existence of God.

Your personal motives no longer matter.....actually, to be perfectly honest, they never did.

I hereby permanently withdraw my unfulfillable request.

I can never prove the existence of God in any tangible way, much the same as you can never disprove the existence of God, no matter how much effort you employ in doing so.

Again, I don't care a curly hair what you believe, or don't believe.....that's between you & yourself.

Your existence is not a threat to me in any way whatsoever ..... personally I wish you a very long & happy life believing in what you do, & disbelieving in what you do too.

I don't hate you, or wish you any malice.  Never did.

I don't consider you an enemy or mortal adversary.

If you choose to hate dislike me because of what I believe in, that's an emotion controllable by you & you alone.

You are the Captain of that ship.



Cheers
  • Last Edit: 2013-12-02, 22:24:34 by SmileyFaze

Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #29
Quote from: An earlier post by String
.......The first is interesting because it is not obvious that it is a valid question. The concept of things having a beginning and an end is essentially anthropermorphic...........


Quote from: An earlier post by Me
......Time, space, and matter came into existence by themselves.......


Ok...The quote directly above is the first item in the list I presented.

As a point of reference, I hope that is the point of query you question the validity of.

Is it your personal opinion that time, space, & matter always existed? 

Either way, could your opinion be based upon the fact that you don't have any tangible reference point to confirm your contention, & that being true, a random toss of the coin to determine whether they came into existence or not would leave far too much to chance?

Firstly, how is that first item specifically describing a concept of a beginning coupled with an end, & secondly how in the world do you derive anthropomorphism from it?
  • Last Edit: 2013-12-03, 00:11:55 by SmileyFaze

  • Macallan
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #30

Quote from: Macallan
.... why would I want to believe in your god?.....
..... So does Vishnu. Why should I believe in your god instead of Vishnu?

Who, or what you personally believe in is between you & yourself. I don't seek to affect any of your beliefs, even if I could.

Missing the point by a mile. Again.
You pretend that belief in your god is somehow the default, that there's plenty evidence to support it ( which you consistently fail to provide ). All the vague nonsense you brought up in favour of your god would work just as well for any of the others. Why did you pick yours over the others?


The only thing I requested from you was to disprove the existence of God........period.

And I told you about a million times by now that this demand is absolute nonsense. You make an outlandish claim, fail to support it in any meaningful way, therefore rejection of your claim is the reasonable position.


You chose not to for 2 reasons.......because you didn't want to, & because I didn't fulfill your prerequisites,  which I contend, you inserted because you figured it was a clever way of avoiding the proposition to disprove the unprovable......the existence of God.

Spare us the babble. We know your favourite strawman by now since you drag his poor ass out every other post. That doesn't magically turn him into anything else than a strawman.

Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #31
Quote from: An earlier post by Macallan
You pretend that belief in your god is somehow the default, that there's plenty evidence to support it


I do?  

Where did  you see this?

Are you sure you aren't just falling to an over-active imagination?

I've alluded to nothing of the sort, but if you really really believe I did....please quote my statement........if you don't mind.....thank you

Quote from: An earlier post by Macallan
You make an outlandish claim


What, in your words, "outlandish claim" was that --- regarding what???

Quote my statement please ..... naturally, if you don't mind.
I honestly think you might be over-reacting a tad.

Are you having a bad day?

I hope not.

Quote from: An earlier post byMacallan
We know your favourite strawman by now since you drag his poor ass out every other post.


Who is, in your own words, who is "strawman"..............who's , in your words, "poor ass" do I drag out in every other post?

I never spoke of anyone called "strawman".

Who is he?

Quote me the post where I did.....please....if you don't mind.

  • Last Edit: 2013-12-03, 02:46:21 by SmileyFaze

  • Macallan
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #32
Quote from: smileyfaze

Quote from: An earlier post by Macallan
You make an outlandish claim


What in your words "outlandish claim" was that --- regarding what?

Now that's a silly question even by your standards. I'm sure you can figure it out.

Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #33
Quote from: An earlier post by Macallan
Now that's a silly question ........ figure it out.


Cute, but non-productive to the discussion.

So, based by your response, there wasn't any "outlandish claim" was there then.

If you say there was, then it's imperative that you quote my, in your words--not mine, my "outrageous claim" you speak of!

Then again, if there wasn't any "outrageous claim" as you claim, then I can see your unfortunate dilemma.

In any event, your response is suspect of one lacking candor.

If we don't communicate our differences clearly, how are we to properly enunciate our problems concerning our differences, in order to eventually eradicate them -- if at all possible?

That should be the goal, no?

I'm trying......but you're not being very helpful at all.

Why do you like to be so evasive --- you know that you are, don't you?   Why?

I never asked, & your profile doesn't say, I know you're 39 years of age, but are you perhaps Female?

Not that I'm saying over-reactiveness, coupled with evasiveness is solely a female trait, hell you might just be male, & have those faults too.

Whatever, this may just be an unfortunate impasse, but if we work together, can be overcome.
  • Last Edit: 2013-12-03, 03:35:47 by SmileyFaze

Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #34
Always in circles. They never see the fault and always act like this is the first conversation ever held on the subject.

If you can't prove something is there why would anyone need to prove it isn't there? That lack of logical reasoning is why christianity breeds ignorance. When superstition leads you to believe outlandish things and you start thinking it's another's place to disprove your delusion, you've missed the point of why it's called a "belief". There's nothing to distinguish one god from another. In fact most of your god's stories were stolen/borrowed from the other gods. You then have to accept them all as probably real, and in doing so open the door to more evidence against the idea of gods in reality. Or accept yours is no different and therefore probably no more real. Since we aren't going to have a discussion on you proving Zeus isn't real you can stop your dodging around with trivial "I don't care about you, but you can't answer my question" bullshit. If everything I can't prove doesn't exist then does exist because I can't prove otherwise... Well i'll stop there because that's the difference. I accept I don't know without a need to fill the gap with magic. You're already tripping over basic fallacies. Like looking to reason yourself into a beginning of nothing, you can't prove, just so your god can be there  to start it all... which then eliminates you argument that nothing can even exist. Circular arguments usually from christians not accustom to how little sense their deeply held beliefs make.

  • Belfrager
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #35
Quote from: SmileyFaze

Quote from: An earlier post by String
.......The first is interesting because it is not obvious that it is a valid question. The concept of things having a beginning and an end is essentially anthropermorphic...........


Quote from: An earlier post by Me
......Time, space, and matter came into existence by themselves.......


Firstly, how is that first item specifically describing a concept of a beginning coupled with an end, & secondly how in the world do you derive anthropomorphism from it?


It's obvious that in no way the problem you raised (how is it possible that Time, space, and matter came into existence by themselves) has any connection with anthropomorphism or some sort of beginning/end vision.

The sort of atheism represented by the Forum atheists uses a simple strategy of discussion for answering your question (as any other you may raise).

1. One answers something totally unrelated with your arguments.
2. Another, will accuse you of circular logic.
3. Another one, will accuse you of intellectual fallacy. If inspired, he can mention something related to Cutchu Cutchu...
4. Another one will start babbling about the big bang.
5. The last one will accuse you of ignorance.

Since they posted five times while you posted once, they believe to have "demonstrated" that you are wrong.

If you, SmileyFaze, I would not spend too much time with it. A couple of well humored posts are enough too keep them busy and happy. :)
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #36
While Christians usually just replay the same trick.

Crying doesn't relieve ignorance. Only god does for you. But then you've just invented a way to justify it.

The amount of stupid that comes from Christianity and Islam speaks for its self. That's not all people involved but the ideology religion perpetuates breeds ignorance. If you can't accept that view is valid you're lost in any meaningful discussion defining a group you then can't understand.

  • Belfrager
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #37

The amount of stupid that comes from Christianity and Islam speaks for its self.


Oops, I forgot that one.
Consider it the sixth step of my unpretentious atheist's manual. :)
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #38
You concede the point when you dodge to posting style commentary.  Meta that.

  • Macallan
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #39

Quote from: An earlier post by Macallan
Now that's a silly question ........ figure it out.


Cute, but non-productive to the discussion.

What discussion? All you do is waffling around.


So, based by your response, there wasn't any "outlandish claim" was there then.

Your god. You claim it exists and attempt to handwave any question for proof. Yet you loudly demand proof from the other side. Typical christian hypocrisy or is it just you?

  • Macallan
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #40

It's obvious that in no way the problem you raised (how is it possible that Time, space, and matter came into existence by themselves) has any connection with anthropomorphism or some sort of beginning/end vision.

Special pleading - check ::)


The sort of atheism represented by the Forum atheists uses a simple strategy of discussion for answering your question (as any other you may raise).

1. One answers something totally unrelated with your arguments.

Weapon grade projection - check


2. Another, will accuse you of circular logic.

Maybe stop using circular "logic" then ::)
Whining about being called out for bullshit - check


3. Another one, will accuse you of intellectual fallacy. If inspired, he can mention something related to Cutchu Cutchu...

If you have trouble understanding an argument feel free to ask :)


4. Another one will start babbling about the big bang.

Which, unlike your or anyone else's god, has some supporting evidence.


5. The last one will accuse you of ignorance.

Gee, I wonder why ::)
( see 3. and 4. for a hint )

Since they posted five times while you posted once, they believe to have "demonstrated" that you are wrong.

More weapon grade projection.

  • ersi
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #41
This was supposed to be about atheism, but is more about bantaying. Maybe the religion thread is more reasonable. I'll go take a look...

  • Belfrager
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #42
Quote from: ersi

This was supposed to be about atheism [...]


Of course it isn't, this is an open book about the atheist mentality, which is a completely different thing.
My role being solely to put them speaking. They do the rest with such a motivation that turns heart touching.

A matter of attitude.

Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #43
Well, all the answers from the Atheist lot have redoubled my original posting.

The Problem with Atheism .... Nice subject, with a very simple answer.

The Problem with Atheism is that they can never disprove the existence of God, so they attack everyone of faith with hate.

The Problem with Atheism is that hate is the only answer they have to the existence of God.


The only change I'd make to the above statement is I'd strike the word 'only' from the last sentence.

I've gone as far as stating clearly that my belief in the existence of a (my) God is solely from my Faith---my personal, individual, solitary Faith.....I also stated in another post that I could not prove His existence in any tangible way.

So me having to prove God's  existence was never a valid issue in relation to the threads title "The Problem with Atheism" , but that became center focus of an uncalled for barrage of unwarranted criticisms that followed.

The Atheist posts are a testimony solidifying my simple, but highly accurate, depiction..........My Point was proven, without a shred of doubt...........

Now for my departing rant....

I swear, if you listen to the Atheist sounds, it's like the sequel you'd expect from little altar boys as they're being raped by the parish priest, or even their communal psychiatrist, unsuccessfully treating them for their paranoid schizophrenia!

Talk about projection......complaints about "outlandish claims" that were never made --- not by me anyway, & after re-reading all the posts, it is quite obvious any purported 'outlandish claims'that I'm being accused of either must have been made by someone else & somewhere else, or the understanding & meaning of the word of 'outlandish' is totally absent from the Atheist's dictionary.....

'Outlandish Claims' in the mind of the Atheist now comes to mean = any post/any statement by a non-atheist that the Atheist disagrees with, any time--any place .... no other conditions required.

Arguments weak as piss are all you get from the atheist camp here.

And, the vitriol personally lodged against me............I'm not even religious............I haven't seen the inside of a church since the '80s, but yet because I declared that I simply believed in God, I became the focus of the Atheist scorn.

But, the Atheist attempts to have the readers believe I'm demanding that they all drop to their knees, & swear allegiance to my God, pledging total & complete blind faith submission to my beliefs, as if I was holding a hair-trigger colt to the back of his little beady head.

Like I give a rats ass in what & of whom they believe in.................I couldn't care less, & I never have!!!!

Need an example of 'outlandish', all you have to do is read the Atheist's words, see the vitriol flow.

Well, I've proven my statement regarding the actual title of this thread "The Problem with Atheism", & that the Problem with Atheism is that they can never disprove the existence of God, so they attack everyone of faith with hate & scorn, possibly out of some self-inflicted frustration.

My statement was short & simple......no outlandish claims, just pure simple fact.

The Atheist's posts testify to that.

Quote from: An earlier post in another thread by mjmsprt40

......As long as this situation continues, I personally see little purpose to these kind of discussions beyond throwing dust in the air and shouting at the top of your lungs to get your aggressions out. It may vent your spleen but beyond that it seems to me to be pointless.


Agreed

I leave this den of ineptitude to feed upon itself in peace, ............I've got more beautiful things to dwell upon........................see ya!

  • Last Edit: 2013-12-04, 11:00:01 by SmileyFaze

Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #44
Lol.

There is no god. There's no reason to prove make- believe. Using make-believe to guide people's lives leads to a convergence of ignorance justified by delusional thinking, in many cases, that is used to serve the purposes of individual leader's control.

From the other corner : "ATTACK! Did you see that attack! That's not the topic! The topic is how sorry atheists are!"

Funny how any time the subject comes up "superior moral value" flies right out the window.


Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #45
Atheists aren't all equal.
The problem I see here is not that atheists demand proofs of whatever religions dare to claim. Rather the debate starts when some religious person (Bantay, for instance) claims having proofs of whatever he/she believes, presenting inconsistent arguments. Then, some atheist doesn't argue what is believed, rather the validity of the arguments.
It may work both ways, too.

  • Belfrager
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #46

Then, some atheist doesn't argue what is believed, rather the validity of the arguments.


Yes... the validity of the arguments, indeed...
How much does your God weights? One kilogram? two kilograms? a tonne? can't be weighted? he doesn't exist.
The cumulus of "valid" thinking.
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #47

Yes... the validity of the arguments, indeed...
How much does your God weights? One kilogram? two kilograms? a tonne? can't be weighted? he doesn't exist.
The cumulus of "valid" thinking.

How much does God weigh?
Hmm, hard to answer taking into consideration the lack of gravity in His habitat.

Therefore let me ask you something more simple.
God created man. Doesn't He?

Did He only create Adam and Eve as we are told or did He start mass production?
If it was only Adam and Eve, were they black, white or of other color for that matter?

Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #48
Well, all the Atheists I ever met were mostly nice, friendly people, a tiny bit different---& they had problems just like any other group, but that was from my prospective, & looks aren't everything are they.


                                                                


  • Last Edit: 2013-12-11, 20:39:39 by SmileyFaze

  • ersi
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #49


Yes... the validity of the arguments, indeed...
How much does your God weights? One kilogram? two kilograms? a tonne? can't be weighted? he doesn't exist.
The cumulus of "valid" thinking.

How much does God weigh?
Hmm, hard to answer taking into consideration the lack of gravity in His habitat.

The concept of immaterial is worth taking seriously. Question about weight is a contradiction of terms when concerning the immaterial world.

Some examples about immaterial are mathematical objects and logic itself. You can't say that these things don't exist. You use them daily and they are indispensable. Therefore they exist. Yet they weigh nothing and can't weigh anything. They have no location, speed, or change of form. They are immaterial.

Everything eternal and logically necessary is immaterial. Such as the concepts of cause and effect - they are just concepts, but you can't take a single breath without them.

But it's okay. Even Bertrand Russell, a formidably subtle thinker mostly, fell inescapably back into gross reasoning whenever God was mentioned. He assumed that a giant teapot in the sky sufficiently refutes any notion of God. This from the guy who made a considerable contribution to set theory...