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Topic: The Problem with Atheism (Read 156221 times)

  • Frenzie
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The Problem with Atheism

  • ersi
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #750
I consider catering to evolution denial to be a milestone, remember  Bantay, not because it mattered that much in itself, it only meant that Republicans would be less likely to be biologists. But it led to party increasingly less comfortable with science, and we can draw a line from there to GQP.
The intelligent design bunch is not inherently a Republican feature, but rather a function of American evangelicals looking for a political home. Evangelical values are anti-evolution (as in officially mandated pro-Old Testament history and science classes in school), pro-homeschooling, anti-abortion (as in abortion must be forbidden to all, plain and simple), anti-gay marriage, pro-Christian values (as in the state must serve as the guarantor and protector of Christian denominations, nevermind the separation of church and state) etc.

I'd say that none of this is inherently Republican. When Republicans are in power, such as most recently with Trump, they spew some pro-church rhetoric to gain the evangelical vote, but they do not enforce any of the relevant policies when in power. Evangelicals hope, wish, and think they hear promises in the wanted direction, but none of it is actually happening. What is happening under Republicans is tax cuts for the rich, which jibes well with the American prosperity gospel and tax exemption as a supposed constitutional right for churches - this may be the only actual inherent touching point between evangelicals and Republicans.

So, it is more like evangelicals are a big bunch, they feel their power receding in the modern world, so they are looking for a strong political home. A hundred years ago their natural home was the Democrat party, given that Southern Baptists are historically also pro-slavery.

The real example of Republican lunacy is everything anti-Democrat and pro-Trump. Being anti-other party just for the sake of it in a two-party system is divisive for no good purpose; it is basically against the balance of powers in the country. And Trump is a loon who still disputes the elections that he won against Hillary (he thinks he won the popular vote there too), not to mention the re-election that he lost, and who directed the mob to attack another branch of government to explicitly disrupt the closing procedure of the electoral college vote. This is absolutely indefensible, but there are astonishingly many defenders of Trump in the party. So, I'd say all pretension of constitutional values, due process, law and order has been lost among Republicans. This is (some of) the lunacy in the party.

As I said earlier, I think it silently started with Watergate, which was an extremely scandalous Republican power-grabbing conspiracy. They have been trying to mount something equally scandalous against Democrats ever since, which only takes the entire country down the spiral.

Edit: I could have made the basic point very much shorter - there is nothing in common between Bantay and Oakdale. Bantay is Bantay, but Oakdale is like this. It is a quote from some nonsensical ramble, accompanied with ultrabrief commentary completely indecipherable for anyone who is not in the same bubble. I even doubt it makes any sense within the bubble. Anyway, Oakdale's thrust is political, invariably in favour of the Republican party, 100% partisan. Bantay's main thrust was religious, hardly any overlap with any major Republican representative or partisan. Is Trump religious? Possibly a tiny little bit, but considerably less than Biden.
  • Last Edit: 2021-05-03, 18:11:19 by ersi

  • Frenzie
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #751
I refuse to be dragged into the Republican-radical culture war, it is froth, turbulence, and waste of energy. "Intersectionality" is somewhat fact-based, though when the word is broached, it's a flag that what follows has a non-zero probability of being nonsense.
Intersectionality merely means that an individual can be affected by multiple types of discrimination and disadvantages. Which is beyond obvious, but better phrased it's the study of that phenomenon. Some people have really, really weird ideas about that, roughly the equivalent of thinking that focusing on biology entails you think there's no such thing as history.

And another important note there, the fact of intersectionality doesn't imply any specific course of action.

It's indeed similar to evolution and climate change. Some people don't like the real or imagined policy implications of the facts, so instead of defending why we should do nothing (which may well be a valid position) they make the wackadoodle claim that nothing's happening at all.

As I said earlier, I think it silently started with Watergate, which was an extremely scandalous Republican power-grabbing conspiracy. They have been trying to mount something equally scandalous against Democrats ever since, which only takes the entire country down the spiral.
What about interpreting it as a resurgence of the Old Right? It's always remained as a minority.

  • ersi
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #752
As I said earlier, I think it silently started with Watergate, which was an extremely scandalous Republican power-grabbing conspiracy. They have been trying to mount something equally scandalous against Democrats ever since, which only takes the entire country down the spiral.
What about interpreting it as a resurgence of the Old Right? It's always remained as a minority.
Oh, it never occurred to me. And rightly so, because Old Right, whose main distinguishing feature is isolationism (the foreign policy is to stick the head in sand and keep it there), has had no representatives in higher power for over a century. Therefore they can be rightly neglected as any sort of influence.

Nixon's right-hand man was Kissinger, definitely a man who made a difference on the world arena. For example, it was Kissinger who recognised Mao's China as a country and frustrated the ambitions of Taiwan. So he was not an Old Right guy.

At some point Oakdale identified as alt right. Not sure if he properly qualifies though.

  • Frenzie
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #753
whose main distinguishing feature is isolationism (the foreign policy is to stick the head in sand and keep it there), has had no representatives in higher power for over a century.
That sounds fairly apropos...  :lol: Perhaps more sticking fingers in the ears and shouting some nonsense rather than head in the sand.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #754
The real example of Republican lunacy is everything anti-Democrat
Well, Dobbin, you've got your plot to plow... Do you ever wonder what the crop will be? :)
The Republican Party began as an anti-slavery (abolitionist) movement. That it supported the constitution and its Bill of Rights (and the Declaration's stance) is hardly surprising... The Post-Civil War amendments were (and are) important; Republican malfeasance and Democrat (Party) supported illegality (KKK and Jim Crow) kept the country from pursuing a staid course -- re-uniting a divided country.
The Wilson administration wss all that the Dems of today could want: Rampant government enforced racism, government censorship and "Ministry of Truth"-like powers to protect the administration, eugenics and abortion to keep power where it belongs, and the denigration and dilution of our "democratic" values -- traditions of self-government, free speech, religious toleration, the right of free assembly; and that bugaboo of the left, property rights.
(Not to mention the right to "keep and bear" arms, since authoritarians of all stripes abhor such...:)
To you, ersi, these are pretensions? Your superficiality is a bulwark against thinking and learning; but as long as you feel safe from upset (cognitive dissonance), your tutelage by Marxist ideology serves you well!!
I'm not surprised that you (and others) "buy" the "insurrection" scenario. That you think the Watergate fiasco was important, indeed, determinative of our politics, only highlights your superficiality...
[A]n extremely scandalous Republican power-grabbing conspiracy[,]
Watergate was a small group of "cowboys" playing "dirty tricks" à la the Democrats. And Nixon's misplaced loyalty cost him his presidency. And gave the country the Carter presidency...the definitive "Buyer's Remorse" election.

Yes, my self-identification as "alt-right" was more than a little tongue-in-cheek: But Paleoconservative doesn't have the same cachet... (Know your audience!) I write as an American, which seems to irritate some folk. (Indeed, some are still so anti-America that even Biblical proscriptions -something about "motes and beams" (Matthew 7:5)- fail to admonish or correct...) If I take it right: Only when Americans exhibit all of the worst traits of Europeans will we be accepted as equals!?
Sorry to disappoint the old guard, but we've got our own problems to deal with... And pleasing the remnant of a past nobility, placating its pretensions of power and pacifying its penchant for precarious alliances should nor be the focus of U.S., foreign policy.
  • Last Edit: 2021-05-03, 20:50:46 by OakdaleFTL
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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  • ersi
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #755
-- traditions of self-government, free speech, religious toleration, the right of free assembly; and that bugaboo of the left, property rights.
(Not to mention the right to "keep and bear" arms, since authoritarians of all stripes abhor such...:)
To you, ersi, these are pretensions?
The Republican pretension is to loudly tout these policies, as if they were under some sort of threat. They are not. The proof is that, when Republicans are in power, they do absolutely nothing about them - exactly the same as Democrats.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #756
exactly the same as Democrats
Oh, not "exactly the same": The Russia Hoax continues still... Putin is a threat, but not to the U.S.! For our Dems, Putin is the "useful idiot". Quite an interesting development, eh?! :)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • ersi
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #757
Please feel free to share the hoax. You can't just say Russia Hoax here and expect everybody to understand.[1] We here don't watch Fox News, Alex Jones etc. incessantly, only occasionally when something ultrafunny is on.

And how does Russia relate to any of the following: traditions of self-government, free speech, religious toleration, the right of free assembly, property rights? (Hint: It doesn't.)

As always, you are blindly partisan: Everything anti-Democrat is good, Democrats themselves evil, as if this somehow made Republicans better in any way. So, please tell finally: Are you for one-party rule? If not, then why do you keep on like this?
Particularly when it only exists a la QAnon.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #758
How many years were spent on chasing the Clinton Chimera called "Russian collusion"? Between Nadler and Schiff, how many "interviews" of "witnesses" buried? (Because of their National Security implications: These two representatives had -at all costs- to hide their duplicity from the public[1], lest some few civil servants be forced -shamed- into doing their jobs...) Even the prospect of removing Trump from office wasn't enough to make them risk that...:)
Or do you actually believe the nonsense promulgated by the Hillary Clinton campaign? That she lost the election because of Russian "interference" and its collusion with the Trump campaign?
They needn't have bothered: Most Dems simply don't care about laws and all that principle stuff. (Like someone we know, eh?)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • Frenzie
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #759
Or do you actually believe the nonsense promulgated by the Hillary Clinton campaign? That she lost the election because of Russian "interference" and its collusion with the Trump campaign?
I'm inclined to think the Democrats lost in large part because there were certain groups of voters they took for granted, but the implied argument seems to be that the collusion doesn't matter because it didn't yield results?

You might wish to skim this document: https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf (Hint: it doesn't come from Hillary Clinton.)

  • ersi
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #760
How many years were spent on chasing the Clinton Chimera called "Russian collusion"?
Are you saying it did not happen? Are you saying that Trump was right in denouncing it as a witch hunt against himself, instead of recognising the relevance for national security and due process of presidential campaign?

Trump's Russia-connections are well known, including the meeting in Trump Tower between Trump's campaign and certain Russians. Surely you have checked the relevant sources so you know what the intelligence community knows what happened. If not, this topic is too difficult for you. Pick another one.

I can recommend you to check the main sources in this book. Edit: Next time when you call it Russia Hoax you will know that everybody knows you are just spewing Trumpite nonsense and don't care about any of facts.
  • Last Edit: 2021-05-04, 17:21:05 by ersi

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #761
Issikoff and Corn... Yeah, I'd trust them, as much as I'd trust Steele! Once upon a time Fairy Tales were meant for children...
The difficulty inherent in "this topic" is the result of flagrant abuses of power by politicians (guess: from which party...?) and their fellow should-be felons in the Intelligence Community.
If your "sources" can't reach or won't touch the sworn testimony given to the House Intelligence Committee and the House Judiciary Committee leading up to the first Trump impeachment trial, their unnamed "highly placed" pontificators are blowing smoke. Good enough to quote; too good to verify.
But, gee, the whole world believes... And you want to know why I don't? My standards for determining truth are higher than Popular Opinion.
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • ersi
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #762
The difficulty inherent in "this topic" is the result of flagrant abuses of power by politicians (guess: from which party...?) and their fellow should-be felons in the Intelligence Community.
You mean the abuse of power by Trump of getting rid of Comey? And Mueller, a Republican, is the should-be felon?

You are just so full of nonsense.

If your "sources" can't reach or won't touch the sworn testimony given to the House Intelligence Committee and the House Judiciary Committee leading up to the first Trump impeachment trial, their unnamed "highly placed" pontificators are blowing smoke.
I gave you my sources. Of course they touch sworn testimony in every direction on every occasion, referring to the relevant documents. Have you taken a look at least at the YT video where Trump is in Russia and do you know the guy whose video it is? I happened to know him before I read the Isikoff-Korn book - they confirm what I already knew from other sources.

But you are giving nothing in return, just blowing smoke. No sources, no substance, just partisan tripe.

You clearly trust Trump's tweets over anything else. But now that he cannot tweet anymore you have nothing.
  • Last Edit: 2021-05-05, 08:05:21 by ersi

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #763
[T]he abuse of power by Trump of getting rid of Comey?
Comey was an incompetent buffoon who couldn't even follow his own organization's rules; his "politics" got in his way...

And Mueller, a Republican, is the should-be felon?
I didn't mention Mueller, for a reason: As he showed during his testimony, he was a figurehead who had no grasp of what "his" team was doing. By all means, let the silly old man retire in peace; those who were in possession of their faculties deserve -at least- firing: Their defense is "Russia!" and many buy that bill of goods...
But their politics are sacrosanct: Never-Trumpers know better than the hoi polloi (sometimes referred to as the electorate).
I gave you my sources.
You cite YouTube video to support innuendo, and expect me to rebut it? Is that a standard of "justice" you're comfortable with?
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • ersi
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #764
You cite YouTube video to support innuendo, and expect me to rebut it? Is that a standard of "justice" you're comfortable with?
No, I don't expect you to rebut anything. I know you don't do rebuttals at all. You only do trumpite talking points.

You don't even know what "source" means. The book by Isikoff and Korn is not the source - it has a list of references to check up, and those are the sources. And the video is not innuendo. It is evidence of the kind of Russia-connections Trump has. The video was made in Russia, mind you. And this is the evidence plainly on the surfac for everyone to see. You just duck your head and have no response to it, never caring to examine and investigate anything.

The way things stand right now: I have something, you have nothing. And, as always, this is how it will stay, so I won't bother you with any advanced and more complicated evidence :)

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The Problem with Atheism
Reply #765
so I won't bother you with any advanced and more complicated evidence  :)
Wow! Just like the House Intelligence and Judiciary Committees... :) (I well remember -during the impeachment trial- when the House managers decided they wouldn't call witnesses after all. Did Isikoff and Corn ever write about that?:)
As you said, You have something! It's called Trump Derangement Syndrome.
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)