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Topic: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?  (Read 13664 times)

The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Quote from:    FOI   http://tinyurl.com/nzj778o      


Hamas, <is> the Palestinian terrorist organization that has publicly committed itself to eliminating the State of Israel.........

In the days after Hamas captured and murdered three Israeli teens and the subsequent, unfortunate murder of an Arab teen, Israel's overtures to Hamas to de-escalate the violence were met with increased missile fire into Israel.

........ Hamas is raining down missiles from Gaza at a rate of one every 10 minutes. Six million Israelis, comprising 75 percent of Israel's population, are under siege. Israel is again finding it necessary to defend itself against terrorists whose agenda is to wipe the Jewish nation off the map.

........When the three Israeli teens were captured, Palestinian Arabs celebrated in the streets. When their lifeless bodies were discovered, Palestinian Arabs threw rocks at the Israeli ambulances sent to recover them.

Contrast this......  ........behavior to Israel's response when the Arab teen was killed. The Israeli radicals were quickly arrested, and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called the boy's parents to apologize. Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has offered no condolences to the parents of the Israeli boys......

After several days of appealing to Hamas to end the violence, Israel launched "Operation Protective Edge" to defend its citizens.......... The goal of the mission is to destroy Hamas's infrastructure of rocket launchers, rocket-storage facilities, command centers, and leadership...........

While it indiscriminately fires missiles at Israeli villages, intending to kill and injure Israeli men, women, and children, Hamas continues to shield its missile launchers and weapons depots by positioning them in residential Arab homes, schools, hospitals, and mosques.

Israel takes unprecedented care to warn residents with phone calls, leaflets, and warning shots before destroying the targets..........



The questions are:  

Does Israel have justification* to claim a "Natural Right to Self-Defense"  based on the recent activity of Hamas?

Do you see the Gaza Palestinians as being just caught in the crossfire, or do they have a level of culpability?

What's your take overall?

*Noun: justification
1. Something (such as a fact or circumstance) that shows an action to be reasonable or necessary
2. A statement in explanation of some action or belief
  • Last Edit: 2014-08-08, 07:41:20 by SmileyFaze

Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #1

If you look up "Semite", it is evident that you can be anti-semitic without taking sides.
"This is the land given to us by God." says one Semite.
"My family has lived here for a thousand years." says another Semite.
Equally, you can be pro-semitic without taking sides.
There is no answer.


Maybe I missed something, but what does that have to do with whether or not Israel has a justification in claiming a "Natural Right to Self-Defense"  based on the recent activity of Hamas?

Or are you trying to somehow say anti-semitism doesn't exist, or matter for that fact?
  • Last Edit: 2014-08-08, 07:57:23 by SmileyFaze

  • ersi
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #2
On your limited terms, as soon as Israel crosses its borders, it's an attack, not self-defence. From there, they may claim whatever, but they have no right. Which of course doesn't stop them, but I'm just sticking to what's right.

Also, it's false to make the opposition to appear to be between Israel and Hamas, a state on one hand and an organisation or a political party on the other. This makes them unequal. If you insist on construing it this way and you call Hamas a terrorist organisation, then it's all the more evident that what Hamas is doing is perfectly right because terrorist organisations are supposed to terrorise. Whereas Israel is completely wrong in claiming self-defence in attacking ordinary people, hospitals and UN institutions beyond Israeli borders when they should be dealing with the members of a certain organisation.

Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #3

On your limited terms, as soon as Israel crosses its borders, it's an attack, not self-defence. From there, they may claim whatever, but they have no right. Which of course doesn't stop them, but I'm just sticking to what's right.

Also, it's false to make the opposition to appear to be between Israel and Hamas, a state on one hand and an organisation or a political party on the other. This makes them unequal. If you insist on construing it this way and you call Hamas a terrorist organisation, then it's all the more evident that what Hamas is doing is perfectly right because terrorist organisations are supposed to terrorise. Whereas Israel is completely wrong in claiming self-defence in attacking ordinary people, hospitals and UN institutions beyond Israeli borders when they should be dealing with the members of a certain organisation.


Yes, Israel was taking offensive action.

The best defense is a good offense.

Rockets were raining in at the rate of 6 an hour, 24 hours a day.

Hamas was firing those rockets, therefore the only way to stop the rockets would be to attack Hamas at the positions where they deployed & fired the rockets -- at the launcher sites chosen solely by Hamas.

Hamas chose to place their rocket batteries & launchers in civilian locations in the belief that Israel would not attack them there.

They thought so dead wrong.

Israel gave plenty of notice before firing it's weapons at those locations --  via leaflets, phone calls, & warning shots.

If there were any civilian causalities, the blood is on the hands of Hamas for locating their arms, rockets launchers, supplies, & men  in schools, places of worship, hotels, private homes, hospitals, etc......

In war, which this is in all but name, it's called collateral damages, & again unless Israel was to step back & accept Hamas firing those rockets into the most populated areas within it's country --- squarely at it's citizens (men, women, & children) --- the only way to stop them would be to take out those rocket supplies,  & their launchers.

I wholeheartedly applaud their decision to do so, & likewise in the future if necessary, & it is truly unfortunate that Hamas chose to locate their rockets & arms in those areas putting the Palestinian people in such grave danger.

When the infantry was sent in, it was specifically assigned the duty to take out the Hamas tunnel system, which was used by Hamas to penetrate into Israel, & carry out their murderous attacks against Israeli citizens, & also to capture & hold hostage as many Israelis as they could.

The tunnels needed to be destroyed & closed once & for all.

Doing so was absolutely a defensive action --- to protect it's citizens from the Hamas attacks --- no doubt about it -- fact is fact.

No country in the world would be expected to do any less to protect the precious lives of it's people -- protect them from such relentless & ruthless attacks. 

The civilian causalities ... the collateral damages ... are all solely the responsibility of Hamas -- the aggressors all along, the ones who errantly decided to use the lives of the Palestinian people to hide their cowardly attacks behind.

  • Last Edit: 2014-08-08, 11:44:38 by SmileyFaze

  • Belfrager
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #4
The wise words of the former president of Iran, Ahmadinejad, comes to my mind - move the artificial country of Israel to the North Pole and everything will be alright.
A matter of attitude.

  • ersi
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #5

The wise words of the former president of Iran, Ahmadinejad, comes to my mind - move the artificial country of Israel to the North Pole and everything will be alright.

Jews have a territory, older than the state of Israel, in a less hostile climate. It even has more area, so it's a win-win every way https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Okrug

  • Sparta
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #6
israel is bad .
hamas is more bad .

  if using --lesser of two evils principle ( minus malum )
it's better to aid  israel .


israel = smart + insane
hamas = stupid +insane


hamas , and their variants for somehow always have good excuses to always attack israel
Since they are (Stupid +insane )
they Always spread the Biglie technique propaganda's to increase their numbers  ( Stupid people always obsessed with Majority thingy )
manipulate another people such as   victim playing ,  drama queen , manipulate another people pity , etc .


while israel , since they are ( Smart + insane ) always have good excuses to be Compulsive and Egoistics to Bully the hamas  with massive and sophisticated power + techs , etc .

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
in my point of view
Logically , that kind of warfare issues , it will easier to ask   U.N assistances.

traditionally ,
US troops will go there -- blitzkrieg GAZA , then  it just need to blame U.S for their effort.
:yes: easy as ABC


well,
not sure too what is the  most valid and legitimate reasons about why is   in the mother land of insanity ( israel-palestine ) there are infinite insanity .
but it seems , that should be arround Genetics or Environments .
-----------------------------------------
We cant solve  problem with create problem  for sure .
to solve a problem , it need a sollution .

so IMHO , some relevant sollutions are :
Heavily blitzkrieg their land with :
Enviromental restructuration + huge Dossages  mental health care .

Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #7
Hamas chose to place their rocket batteries & launchers in civilian locations in the belief that Israel would not attack them there.

I disagree a little bit. Hamas put them there precisely to point fingers at Israel for attacking those things Ersi claimed they were. However, one reason doesn't discount the other and make it incorrect. So we might both be right. In any case, it shows what filth Hamas are and why the Palestinians themselves would be better off rid of them. The people of Gaza need a real government interested in growth and development and not terrorists pretending to be government. With stability and a real government, there's instant cheap labor to build factories in Gaza and the West Bank - what jump started the Asian "Dragon" economies.

  • string
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  • Forum Staff
Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #8
"The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?"

Certainly Hamas need to be locked up, but maybe also Israel.

If an intruder burgled your property and stole your television set would he be entitled to wipe out your family if you took a pot shot at him when he tried again, and again and again?

  • Colonel Rebel
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #9
Other than noting that SF's link is inherently biased, and reminds me a great deal of my many neighbors (YAY ISRAEL! IT'S GOD'S COUNTRY AND CAN DO NO WRONG! YAY END TIMES!!!1), I agree with @Ersi's points. They were very well put, imo.

Additionally, and this is going to sound: 1) Arrogant 2) Offensive to fundie Christians 3)Commandeering

So long as we prop up the state of Israel, and there is no doubt about it, the US DOES, subsidize Israel's existence, Israel should obey most of what we tell them to do. When we tell them to quit building in the West Bank/Gaza, they should quit their illegal construction. When we tell them to quit killing innocent civilians in their counter-attacks, they should quit that.

My basis for being demanding like that is as so:

1. As noted, we prop up their economy.

2. We supply their arms, Iron Dome defense system, etc.

3. We cover their ass in int'l matters.


Don't mistake me; I love the Jewish people and made several friends from Israel whilst in Liverpool, but I hate with a passion the Israeli Gov't. The arrogant fawkers think they can do anything they want without repercussions, and I lay the blame of that squarely on us (the US).

A change of policy regarding our puppet 51st state is needed. Or, in the event that Israel chooses to ignore our directives, I say we pull the plug on funding, arms, etc. and see if they do not learn their lesson.

  • ersi
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #10
I agree with Norman Finkelstein on this topic. He's a Jew, so it's fair and balanced.

Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #11
Israel should obey most of what we tell them to do. When we tell them to quit building in the West Bank/Gaza, they should quit their illegal construction. When we tell them to quit killing innocent civilians in their counter-attacks, they should quit that.


I agree with a lot of what you say, for I, in earlier posts in that other forum, I was probably one of the first to declare that Israel had no right to the lands inhabited for centuries by the Palestinians, & were given something that didn't belong to them by the Brits, & the US via the U.N.

But, I am also a realist. There is no backwards step regarding the State of Israel......it exists, has existed for decades, & it must be allowed/helped to continue to exist for it is paramount to our National Security Interests in that region of salivating wolves.

That's where it ends.

You're right, they must be accountable to some degree in their domestic policies .... especially in it's reconciliation with the Palestinian peoples.

Dictated to, not quite, but strongly persuaded that there's a better way of doing things, & now is the best time -- rather than never -- if they want to continue to suck on America's financial hind tit.

1. To a degree, but persuaded rather than forced into blind political obedience.

2. Absolutely, & unequivocally.

3. Absolutely not. Israel has a perfectly sound & legitimate "natural right to self-defense" -- to ensure the lives of their citizens are protected above all cost ....... Collateral Damages are impossible to overcome particularly when Hamas' central plans are so insanely defective, but those plans are central to drawing on a sympathetic & compassionate external public opinion to smokescreen their real objectives ---- the total destruction of State of Israel, & particularly all of it's 12 million inhabitants -- every last Man, Woman, Baby, Child, Mother, Father, Grandmother & Grandfather, Uncle, Aunt, Cousin, Sister & Brother. To Hamas it's all about location, location, location coupled with complete annihilation.

Otherwise, that being said, we are probably closer to total agreement than from it.
  • Last Edit: 2014-08-09, 07:10:22 by SmileyFaze

  • Sparta
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #12
Both Israel and palestine , their Societies mental health , Social Sciences and political Sciences  is Questionable. 

a society that have mental health issues  , will born politician  that have mental health issues .
politicians that have mental health issues will create an insane  state  .

and only   politicians with psychopathy that have ideas to enlarge their land , invade another land , dominate the World , Rule the World , etc.






  • Jochie
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #13


A change of policy regarding our puppet 51st state is needed. Or, in the event that Israel chooses to ignore our directives, I say we pull the plug on funding, arms, etc. and see if they do not learn their lesson.
You're wrong about the relationship.

The de facto state of affairs, if not de jure, is that the US is a vassal of Israel. Why? US politicians have made it such.

Watch any address of the Israeli PM to the US congress. You will see the congressmen wildly cheering and applauding as if its a personal visitation by the Messiah. No one, not even any president gets that response.

See the latest - where we have congressmen and senators lining up and fighting to show they are more pro-Israel than anyone else.

Israel wants more money for Iron Dome? No problem. This usual dysfunctional congress suddenly woke up, like a Vampire from its grave at night, and instantly passed a $225 million appropriation for Iron Dome. Two days later the bill was signed by the president.

Compare that to Sandy aid to the Northeast. Congress was hedging and delaying until the Northeast congress  critters reminded other regions that they have been previous recipient of much Federal aid when they needed it. For Israel there is no hedging.

At the State Department we used to predict that if Israel's prime minister should announce that the world is flat, within 24 hours Congress would pass a resolution congratulating him on the discovery."- A CHANGING IMAGE, Richard H. Curtiss Foreign Service Officer

  • rjhowie
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #14
Israel has been as usual so arrogant and well over the top in it's response to Hamas. One woman from the Strip I watched being interviewed on television. She was an intelligent woman and has no time for Hamas at all but as she commented all Israel has done is lay more generations to be in the face with Israel.

Anyway on a more direct matter Israel is utterly way out in their actions. Can I remind everyone that Israel dominates Hamas on just about everything - tanks, artillery, etc. It also has that iron shield they proudly boast of so there is no way on Earth anyone can say Israel was under threat of being destroyed.None at all and the Hamas missiles are being knocked out before they can do much aginst a heavy army like Israel's The slaughter of well into four figures, cutting water and electricity is disgusting and nasty. So always having the upper hand the Israeli jackboots are more than a match for the opposition. A tiny handful of Jewish civilians killed is a good excuse to unleash such a military force?  Having taken out the tunnels and with the ant-missile shield there is no comparison yet they fall back on Old testament attitudes and slaughter the innocents and are getting away with it.

So with a heavier presence Israel has been an arrogant, immoral in an unequal contestant and will get away with it because the West bows to the "leader" because of the massive Jewish lobby on the Hill and the armaments industry. Tel Aviv spokespeople insult the intelligence that it is unfortunate innocents die. Compared to Israeli civilian deaths it is a damnable disgrace. Hospitals over-run by the injured, medical supplies stretched you cannot even play on a beach as a child. Small wonder the Israeli President had to apologise for that one and there is nowhere to be safe in that tight Gaza Strip no matter what the blitreigers in Tel Aviv say. The siege has lasted too long and the economy devastated as well Yet the paymasters in DC let them away with it.

Damnable is too light a description.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • krake
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #15

the US is a vassal of Israel. Why? US politicians have made it such.

Hmm, the US a vassal of Israel?
Admitting that you are right - why US politicians have made it such?
You don't do something without reason. Do you?

  • rjhowie
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #16
Two outstanding facts krake in my wee intervention here.

The first is the extent of fundamental Christians who have this overdrawn view of Israel due to it's part in the faith. This has led to an unfortunate attitude just because of what the country was in Biblical times. Secondly the massive strength of the Jewish lobby which I touched on in the USA. That is both political and financial. It is no surprise therefore that US Presidents are almost obliged to speak at a Jewish Conference due to that partisan ethnic/religious corner's power.

It is as I simply portrayed a nonsense to assume that a powerful military like Israel's and Amas are somehow equal in their warfare. Having destroyed much of Gaza  in a so-called sorting out of tunnels and rockets the economy of the Strip was destroyed. Egypt shuts one side and Israel surrounds the rest including coast and it is a damnable intolerance and disgusting matter that the Tel Aviv regime gets away with this simply because the US and Israel are so far up each other there is an echo. If anyone else did this the US would be rumbling into action. No-one can claim this is some sort of reasonable attrition by the Israelis is off their sensible grey cells. When one looks at the number of Israeli civilians killed to the mass number of the same group in the Gaza Strip there is no comparison whatsoever. What makes it more terribly farcical is that the damn rockets fired by Hamas hardly do anything due to excellent shield provided by their pals  in the Pentagon

Has Israel had 400 children killed in this latest event? Has it had 2,000 iilled altother? Nope a handful outside of the military. That same military can get away with about anything and even when they are shown to be criminally brutal the regular government spoesman will say anything dodgy will be investigated is a cruel joke.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #17


Not too long ago someone made a brilliant statement:

"....when the Palestinian people start loving their children more than the hate us, there will be peace".

Sound like a simple request?  No?

Will they ever find this love, or does Islam only teach them that hatred is their only motivation for existence?
  • Last Edit: 2014-08-10, 03:09:48 by SmileyFaze

Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #18
Quote from: rjhowie
....Compared to Israeli civilian deaths it is a damnable disgrace.....

...... When one looks at the number of Israeli civilians killed to the mass number of the same group in the Gaza Strip there is no comparison whatsoever. What makes it more terribly farcical is that the damn rockets fired by Hamas hardly do anything due to excellent shield provided by their pals  in the Pentagon....


So, Israel should close down their "Iron Dome", & let the rockets rain in, & then allow Hamas to freely flow in & out at will to kill it's citizens until the numbers satisfy you & the rest of the bleeding-heart world???

When Hamas grows some balls & remove their people, arms, rockets & the like from heavily populated civilian areas, less civilians will die. The responsibility rests squarely on Hamas' shoulders --- nowhere else.

Israel is responding to it's people's desperate needs/cries for help..........the need to be protected from Hamas.....period.

When the toll hits 5,000 then maybe the bleeding-hearts  will remove their collective heads out of their bloody assholes long enough to see that if nothing else their cries for so called fairness in the death toll does nothing but embolden Hamas & their likes!

In war -- & if you think this isn't war, wise up & look again -- you'd gladly take out 1,000 of theirs  --- men, women, & children ---  to save a dozen of your own, or would you RJ -- would you let them kill you & yours out of your so called  respect for fairness?

Well, it's been that way since the earliest times, & will be that way 'till the end of days.

Nothing is more important than the lives of your own........nothing.

  • Last Edit: 2014-08-10, 05:25:41 by SmileyFaze

  • krake
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #19
My guess - at the end Mr Netanyahu will agree with the USA on a two-state solution.


  • Sparta
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #20

that's the Warzone , migrate from there is the most logical thing to do .

there is no someone that point a gun to stay or live in Gaza .

or is there  ?  :left:

Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #21

My guess - at the end Mr Netanyahu will agree with the USA on a two-state solution.




At least Hamas won't be able to easily spread any rocket launchers among them.

......migrate from there is the most logical thing to do .


And throw all those hard workin', overachieving Islamic terrorists out of work, & worse yet, nothing to bitch about either!!??
  • Last Edit: 2014-08-10, 07:56:29 by SmileyFaze

  • Sparta
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #22
seriously , no joke .

why is   Palestine People stay in GAza ?

they know that is a land of War .

They know Hamas hide there .

they Know israel will Blitzkrieg Gaza  .

but they still live there ?

is there are no place beside 'Gaza' to live a life  in Palestine ?

Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #23
Yer guess is as good as mine ......... Try This  

  • rjhowie
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #24
Oh dear oh dear SmileyFaze. Your neo-con lunacy that bestrides much of America is still to the fore. Where did I suggest that Israel should take out it's Iron Dome??

Do try and understand what IS going on. Israel is a modern military system country. It has planes, latest missiles, tanks, etc. Hamas has mortars and rockets and there is absolutely no comparison at all - no equality of arms whatsover and something obvious to an immature adult as. In addition where should all the innocents go in this blitzreig by the ME Reich? The Strip is small and crammed. Power and water are now problems due to the heavy one-sdied military situation (oh andI forgot when mentioned Israeli weaponry to include their H bomb stuff). Now the storm troopers have killed 2,000 including 400 children so what is the equivalent re Israeli civilians? You fine well know the answer. And having dealt with the tunnels what is next? One Tel Aviv government fool has suggested some form o near concentration camp situation. Will the disgusting sigee of this almost destroyed Strip have the sieg lifted?

Israel gets away with this because of it's suck to the USA. If America thinks it is right then stuff everyone else. You supply the Tel aviv jackboots with expensive weapons (thanks dear military corporates) and having destroyed Gaza you same lot will then spend billions in the rebuilding. Nut jobs is too simple a description. In this daft and immoral situation you waste buckets of money when tens of millions of Americans are scared to be ill are poor and almost left to rot - or look for charity. I have even seen news reports including camps set up by ex-colonists and all through no fault of your own. Immoral stances are understood in the world except in the one nation that thinks it is "it."  Not only do the Jews have big political pull in America but in Wall street so hardly surprising they pull the DC strings. I know you can afford a head shrinker but millions can't.
"Quit you like men:be strong"