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Topic: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?  (Read 13664 times)

The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Quote from:    FOI   http://tinyurl.com/nzj778o      


Hamas, <is> the Palestinian terrorist organization that has publicly committed itself to eliminating the State of Israel.........

In the days after Hamas captured and murdered three Israeli teens and the subsequent, unfortunate murder of an Arab teen, Israel's overtures to Hamas to de-escalate the violence were met with increased missile fire into Israel.

........ Hamas is raining down missiles from Gaza at a rate of one every 10 minutes. Six million Israelis, comprising 75 percent of Israel's population, are under siege. Israel is again finding it necessary to defend itself against terrorists whose agenda is to wipe the Jewish nation off the map.

........When the three Israeli teens were captured, Palestinian Arabs celebrated in the streets. When their lifeless bodies were discovered, Palestinian Arabs threw rocks at the Israeli ambulances sent to recover them.

Contrast this......  ........behavior to Israel's response when the Arab teen was killed. The Israeli radicals were quickly arrested, and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called the boy's parents to apologize. Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has offered no condolences to the parents of the Israeli boys......

After several days of appealing to Hamas to end the violence, Israel launched "Operation Protective Edge" to defend its citizens.......... The goal of the mission is to destroy Hamas's infrastructure of rocket launchers, rocket-storage facilities, command centers, and leadership...........

While it indiscriminately fires missiles at Israeli villages, intending to kill and injure Israeli men, women, and children, Hamas continues to shield its missile launchers and weapons depots by positioning them in residential Arab homes, schools, hospitals, and mosques.

Israel takes unprecedented care to warn residents with phone calls, leaflets, and warning shots before destroying the targets..........



The questions are:  

Does Israel have justification* to claim a "Natural Right to Self-Defense"  based on the recent activity of Hamas?

Do you see the Gaza Palestinians as being just caught in the crossfire, or do they have a level of culpability?

What's your take overall?

*Noun: justification
1. Something (such as a fact or circumstance) that shows an action to be reasonable or necessary
2. A statement in explanation of some action or belief
  • Last Edit: 2014-08-08, 07:41:20 by SmileyFaze

  • mjmsprt40
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  • undocumented space alien
Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #25
Methinks RJ's tune would change dramatically if someone started taking potshots at his home. Then, I doubt that which side has heavier armaments would matter much-- somebody is shooting at him and that needs to be stopped!

To me, it looks like the same kind of deal here. Hamas fires missiles at Israel and doesn't expect Israel to-- er, I don't know-- ahhh-- shoot back? Further, Hamas hides its weapons in civilian sectors so Israel has to kill civilians to stop Hamas from killing Israeli civilians. Sorta like the bully who picks on other children, then the instant trouble comes a-callin' the bully hides behind a girl's skirts. Can't hit back at the bully without hitting the girl. Real brave there, eh, Hamas?

Look, if you want an all-around bad guy, it's hard to find one nastier than Hamas right now. Start trouble, then use civilians as human shields-- they really don't give a (bless and do not curse) about the Palestinians, frankly Hamas wouldn't care if every Palestinian was reduced to corpses-- they just want to annihilate Israel.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #26

Methinks RJ's tune would change dramatically if someone started taking potshots at his home. Then, I doubt that which side has heavier armaments would matter much-- somebody is shooting at him and that needs to be stopped!

To me, it looks like the same kind of deal here. Hamas fires missiles at Israel and doesn't expect Israel to-- er, I don't know-- ahhh-- shoot back? Further, Hamas hides its weapons in civilian sectors so Israel has to kill civilians to stop Hamas from killing Israeli civilians. Sorta like the bully who picks on other children, then the instant trouble comes a-callin' the bully hides behind a girl's skirts. Can't hit back at the bully without hitting the girl. Real brave there, eh, Hamas?

Look, if you want an all-around bad guy, it's hard to find one nastier than Hamas right now. Start trouble, then use civilians as human shields-- they really don't give a (bless and do not curse) about the Palestinians, frankly Hamas wouldn't care if every Palestinian was reduced to corpses-- they just want to annihilate Israel.


Now, ain't that the truth!!!       Well said!!!   

Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #27


Now, it looked like RJ was going to say something new, & possibly interesting too.


Oh dear oh dear SmileyFaze. Your neo-con lunacy that bestrides much of America is still to the fore.........


                               
               

                      

                               
               

                      



Tisk ... Tisk ...... I was so, so wrong...

Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #28
Has Israel had 400 children killed in this latest event? Has it had 2,000 iilled altother? Nope a handful outside of the military

Did Israel act like a bunch of little bitches hiding their weapons in civilian neighborhood, knowing that will get innocent people killed? I have to wonder of the Palestinians wouldn't have their state already, if not for Hamas. Today Israel and Hamas signed a three day truce. Let's see how long it takes for Hamas to break it.

  • tt92
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #29
The U.S. intends to continue bombing targets in Iraq.
Wouldn't it be more convenient to sub-contract the job to Israel?

  • Colonel Rebel
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #30

Israel should obey most of what we tell them to do. When we tell them to quit building in the West Bank/Gaza, they should quit their illegal construction. When we tell them to quit killing innocent civilians in their counter-attacks, they should quit that.


I agree with a lot of what you say, for I, in earlier posts in that other forum, I was probably one of the first to declare that Israel had no right to the lands inhabited for centuries by the Palestinians, & were given something that didn't belong to them by the Brits, & the US via the U.N.

But, I am also a realist. There is no backwards step regarding the State of Israel......it exists, has existed for decades, & it must be allowed/helped to continue to exist for it is paramount to our National Security Interests in that region of salivating wolves.

That's where it ends.

You're right, they must be accountable to some degree in their domestic policies .... especially in it's reconciliation with the Palestinian peoples.

Dictated to, not quite, but strongly persuaded that there's a better way of doing things, & now is the best time -- rather than never -- if they want to continue to suck on America's financial hind tit.

1. To a degree, but persuaded rather than forced into blind political obedience.

2. Absolutely, & unequivocally.

3. Absolutely not. Israel has a perfectly sound & legitimate "natural right to self-defense" -- to ensure the lives of their citizens are protected above all cost ....... Collateral Damages are impossible to overcome particularly when Hamas' central plans are so insanely defective, but those plans are central to drawing on a sympathetic & compassionate external public opinion to smokescreen their real objectives ---- the total destruction of State of Israel, & particularly all of it's 12 million inhabitants -- every last Man, Woman, Baby, Child, Mother, Father, Grandmother & Grandfather, Uncle, Aunt, Cousin, Sister & Brother. To Hamas it's all about location, location, location coupled with complete annihilation.

Otherwise, that being said, we are probably closer to total agreement than from it.

You seem to misunderstand me a bit, but I am glad we agree on most of this.

1. I have no problems with Israel's existence. Though some of how it came to be is a tad illegal, most of it was done legally (land sold, etc).

2. I would never demand absolute political obedience, but it appears to me that the Israeli gov't thinks that the US taxpayer-funded cash is an entitlement to the state of Israel. As we both know, it is not. My solution? For every time they try to shirk the direction we are prodding them in, we make a cut to some form of funding. Massive cuts to the subsidies of the IDF would of course be most effective, but no one in DC has the balls to do that. Nearly all are cowards. The only cut I could ever envision would be to the Israeli economy, i.e. our propping up of it.

3. Glad to see our agreement, once again, regarding illegal construction.

4. Once again, as I have, in the past,  harped on  ad nauseum on D&D, what with the generous welfare packages we offer Israel (while US infrastructure continues to be neglected, I might add, as well as some of our own ppl going hungry), none are more generous than the Iron Dome we gifted them. It will ensure that 90% of rockets are destroyed.

- Also, if they want self-defense, I am not against it. I am against waste. I can see limited value in what is going on now (destruction of tunnels w/ cash we gave the Palestinians) with the value being them destroyed, but if they want protection, then send out 100-200 of their pissed-off Givati Brigade to end Hamas' leadership once and for all.

--To a degree, I understand why they are not doing my above suggestion. Every single President from Coolidge onward has betrayed our nation by allowing the Saud family to continue to draw air. They are the most despicable form of human being alive, and have funded our enemies since their inception in 1925. AND WHAT TO WE DO? WE CRAWL INTO BED WITH THEM! What does that bring us? 3000 dead on 9/11/2001; the funding of ISIL in the former colonial construct known as Iraq, etc. Our response? Crawl ever further into bed with them, though they appear to be pissed at Obama. It's one of the few things Obama has done right, pissing those parasites off. Salafi Islam must be eliminated. I wouldn't be against posthumous and current charges of treason against every president since Coolidge up to the current failure of an incumbent for such a huge betrayal to our country.  / end rant

  • Sparta
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #31

Yer guess is as good as mine ......... Try This


That thing, is  full of The Big lie techniques , disinformations , propagandas ,   etc .

I guess a Neutral Sources is much better than Search engines .

not to mention , Wrong information is more dangerous than,  do  not know any information.

  • krake
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #32

frankly Hamas wouldn't care if every Palestinian was reduced to corpses-- they just want to annihilate Israel.

I don't exactly know what Hamas wants and what it cares about. Fact is that Hamas will neither annihilate Israel with those missiles (btw, does anybody know how many Israelis have been killed by those missiles since the first one was fired and till now?) nor will it stop Israel to build new settlements on grabbed land.

Israeli Settlements on Palestinian Land

Land and Settlement Issues

Land grabbing continues as I am typing this post.

Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #33
Who knows what the endgame of Hamas is. Their shelling early Sunday morning prevented Israeli humanitarian aid and supplies from reaching Gaza from the Kerem Shalom Crossing. Maybe they have no plan and are just lunatics. I think the best outcome would for the Palestinians themselves to overthrow them.

  • Frenzie
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #34
I don't exactly know what Hamas wants and what it cares about.

They wrote it all down in 32 articles of Mein Kampfish genocidal lunacy.

btw, does anybody know how many Israelis have been killed by those missiles since the first one was fired and till now?

Israel builds bomb shelters to protect its citizens. Hamas builds tunnels to carry out attacks. The number of civilian deaths will therefore be disproportionate, and Israel (mostly) cannot be blamed for it.

  • krake
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #35

Israel builds bomb shelters to protect its citizens.

And grabs land ...


The number of civilian deaths will therefore be disproportionate, and Israel (mostly) cannot be blamed for it.

What do you mean by disproportionate - 1:1000, 1:2000, 1: ....?

  • rjhowie
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #36
You know mjsmsprt40 and SmileyFaze you are both too typical of the wide attitude brained into you over there on israel and excellently validate my opion. As for me not saying anything new - neither have you but too blind to see it. If America does something it is automatically correct and if anyone else beyond the pale. Talk about propaganda. Instead of mmubling the usual neo-con and daft stuff you should have read properly what I said.

There is NO comparison between Hamas (which i do not support) and the IDF is there?? How many Israeli civilians are dead compared to those in the Gaza Strip? Compare the armaments as well. This is a simple as it can become. You are both typical of the ne-con and fundamental Christians who think because this is the Holy land are somehow Israel is right. Biblically not true  and the American fundie religious attitude gets carried away. So you both emphasise in your pro-Israel stance my argument.  Israel will therefore get away with it's blitzkreig attitudes because of the mistaken religious attitude and because Jews control so much in America whether media, film world, whatever (oh and economics)

I regret that Israel was ever created because they stole land and evicted people who had lived there for centuries trying to fall back on old testament attitudes (which are false today) . The power of Jewish people in America made sure the Jews got what they wanted. However the place exists so stuck with it but what right does Israel have to block Palestine from being a proper State when it created it's on the back of terrorist just as bad as Hamas? Jewish terrorists like the Stern Gang and others wreaked havoc to create the State and stuffed anyone else. They get away with anything including their secret service stealing British and Australian passports for their secret police to murder people. In a sense I am not surprised at suck negatives from you two as you are brained into this attitude and that America is the world's inspiration, loight in darkness and any other nonsense.

So Israel exists and ids a twin with the US so gets away with anything it likes. Instead of trying to ignore my direct answer try and look balanced at the two sides namely Israel and Hamas. It is NOT equal and neither is the savage destruction of the Strip morally justified.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Frenzie
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #37
And grabs land ...

I do not believe they are illegal; for starters most of them were already settled before the Arab aggression in 1948 destroyed the settlements. The Barrier is a different issue. The West Bank should be open for Jews and Arabs alike according to international law.

What do you mean by disproportionate - 1:1000, 1:2000, 1: ....?

I was under the impression it was around 1:10 over the years, but you clearly have different sources. I've been unable to quickly find data from the Palestine Red Crescent Society. But, simply put, Israel could wipe Palestine from the face of the earth if they wanted to. Clearly killing civilians is not their intent. If Hamas were Israel, there would be no more Jews.

  • Jochie
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #38

Has Israel had 400 children killed in this latest event? Has it had 2,000 iilled altother? Nope a handful outside of the military

Did Israel act like a bunch of little bitches hiding their weapons in civilian neighborhood, knowing that will get innocent people killed? I have to wonder of the Palestinians wouldn't have their state already, if not for Hamas. Today Israel and Hamas signed a three day truce. Let's see how long it takes for Hamas to break it.
I understand the GAZA population density is similar to an American city. The whole area is like a city.

Which brings up the problem, where are weapons supposed to be hidden? In armories? I doubt Israel would allow Hamas to create and keep armories. In police stations? To have weapons concentrated in police stations would make it very easy for Israel to confiscate them.

So enlighten me where you think the weapons should be kept.

During the American revolution, I'm sure the British said the same about American "terrorist." Look at those "terrorists" hiding their weapons in their houses. When they formed their militias, those colonial terrorists actually brought their muskets from their farmhouses instead of keeping them stockpiled in armories as decent armies do. Did you consider the American revolutionaries, who kept their weapons at home, little bitches?


Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #39
..........Which brings up the problem, where are weapons supposed to be hidden? In armories? I doubt Israel would allow Hamas to create and keep armories. In police stations? To have weapons concentrated in police stations would make it very easy for Israel to confiscate them.

So enlighten me where you think the weapons should be kept..........


Well, the premise is that if you fire unguided rockets indiscriminately, on the average of 6 an hour, at over 80% of Israel's population with the sole purpose of annihilating Israel's civilian population (men, women, children, babies, grandmothers, grandfathers....etc....etc...) you forfeit any & all rights to any & all offensive weapons, & wherever they are located they need to be hunted out & destroyed.

Hamas has brought down the hammers of hell upon themselves, & in doing so upon the unfortunate civilians whose skirts these cowards were hiding behind!

The only option that will guarantee the safety of the people they pretend to represent, their human shields, is if they unilaterally call an unconditional permanent ceasefire......stop all hostilities, stop all the rockets, & stop all their raids into Israel....permanently.....period.

If one wishes to make war, one must be willing to accept causalities.

The only alternative is peace, but to get it you have to be willing to make it.

....During the American revolution, I'm sure the British said the same about American "terrorist." Look at those "terrorists" hiding their weapons in their houses. When they formed their militias, those colonial terrorists actually brought their muskets from their farmhouses instead of keeping them stockpiled in armories as decent armies do. Did you consider the American revolutionaries, who kept their weapons at home, little bitches?......


There is no possible comparison whatsoever between the Cowardly Hamas of 2014, & the American Patriots of 1776 ...... None whatsoever.
  • Last Edit: 2014-08-11, 21:01:40 by SmileyFaze

  • Jochie
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #40

....During the American revolution, I'm sure the British said the same about American "terrorist." Look at those "terrorists" hiding their weapons in their houses. When they formed their militias, those colonial terrorists actually brought their muskets from their farmhouses instead of keeping them stockpiled in armories as decent armies do. Did you consider the American revolutionaries, who kept their weapons at home, little bitches?......


There is no possible comparison whatsoever between the Cowardly Hamas of 2014, & the American Patriots of 1776 ...... None whatsoever.
I'm not the one who made the connection between hiding weapons at home and "cowardly little bitches."

I know the American revolutionaries were not cowardly. You should not assume the Hamas terrorists or freedom fighters are also cowardly. For Hamas, the easy, lucrative and comfortable thing would be to make an "accommodation" with the US and Israel. You'll then see the US government flying in tons of 100 dollar bills to personally give to Hamas leaders. That's what we did for the warlords in Afghanistan when they reached an "accomodation" with us.

  • Frenzie
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #41

Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #42
I'm not the one who made the connection between hiding weapons at home and "cowardly little bitches."

In the American revolution, many  patriots had to bring their own gun. They were not hiding weapons at home. When they were not deployed they brought their guns home as their personal property. Even civilians had to have their guns ready in case of British invasion. This is a far cry from firing missiles from densely populated areas, knowing full well it will get their own people killed and injured when Israel has no option but to strike back.  Do note, however, that the American did have armories - in military camps and forts well away from the civilians. In fact, one of the first things the British did as war became inevitable was to try to raid the American armories. Who warped your mind that the American Patriots were anything like Hamas, the animals send suicide bombers into a crowd of people. I must now offer an apology to animals for comparing them to Hamas when, in fact, Hamas are worse than animals. Animals kill to eat and to defend themselves. Hamas kills innocent civilians for no reason  with no apparent objective but cold-blooded murder. Hell, I even told you they fired missiles to prevent aid from reaching the Palestinians.

Hamas are no longer freedom fighters, if they ever were which is questionable. They're terrorists. If the Palestinian people do get their own sovereign country,  I'd bet my life savings on them continuing their terrorism. The Palestinians worst enemy is not Israel, it's Hamas and their filthy ilk.

  • Sparta
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #43
it seems  israel-palestine traditional conflitcs   are become the World issues .

let's get this straight ..
correct me  if i maybe  wrong ..

Israel , spread their Propagandas and get something to leech is from Western , europes , to murica .

while palestine , spread their propagandas and get something to leech from eastern ,  arabs , until my motherland .

They Split the World in two mainstream .

Both are leechs , and both using that funds to fite one each other , again and again , and again , and again ...

isn't that so fabulous ?  :coffee:

  • rjhowie
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #44
Perhaps a wee bit of an over simplification Sparta but you do have something there.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Frenzie
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #45
Hamas kills innocent civilians for no reason  with no apparent objective but cold-blooded murder.

There's nothing "apparent" about it. Look up a summary of the contents of their charter (Wikipedia will do).

  • string
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #46
Surely if one had to compare the Israel/Palestinian conflict with the American Continent, it would be more correct to compare the British against the indigenous Indians and, after them, the Americans against the Indigenous Indians (and, to be pedantic, the Spanish and Portuguese against the Indians); land stolen from its owners and atrocities from both sides after that.

Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #47

Surely if one had to compare the Israel/Palestinian conflict with the American Continent, it would be more correct to compare the British against the indigenous Indians and, after them, the Americans against the Indigenous Indians (and, to be pedantic, the Spanish and Portuguese against the Indians); land stolen from its owners and atrocities from both sides after that.


To a degree I agree, but for the last sentence:

"....land stolen from its owners..."

The peoples who inhabited The Americas prior to European Colonizations were migrants themselves, from Asia it has been determined, about 15,000 - 40,000 years prior to the European exploration & subsequent settlement(s). To say that these prior inhabitants were "owners of the land" would be incorrect. Nobody actually owned the land. Every culture that inhabited the land migrated to it, settling on the land. The land  never had any ownership, just long term claims by long term migratory inhabitants. Therefore the lands could never have been "stolen from anyone" in the true sense, just one group of settlers displacing previous group(s) of settlers via various means & methods -- via exchange of values at one end to violent warfare at the other, with degrees of peaceful cohabitation spread throughout the middle.

In the end the land has no true owners, & never will, only temporary tenants who hold claims,  which are -- & will always be -- subject to dispute.

  • Sparta
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #48
Europeans >< indians
is more like , cross cultures --  Lost in translation issues  .

Europes , westerns , etc .
their cultures , traditions , systems , etc  are built by structuralists .
it is for somehow  forces everyone who live in that territories  to obey certain rules or laws , to run the system.

Westerns governments are smooth criminals .
while ancient indians , do not have any complicated systems ( Anarchy )

when a Society  like indians , meet another society  that have greater power ,
and somehow   there are conflicts .
that  society will face extinction.

that is happened ,
Simply , because they do not force their people to pay taxes .

Taxes are used to build Power .
Without Power , nothing can survive .

well,

that are alot of Fe's  :beard:


  • Colonel Rebel
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #49
As Bibi just recently formed a new coalition (by a knife's edge and with one hour to go), I look forward to reading SF's thoughts on this, and if the Coalition for the Israeli Gov't will last? Also, I note the composition of the Coalition is hard-right, in general, which most likely doesn't bode will for any two-state solution, or am I wrong?

Thx in advance, SF!  :beer: