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Topic: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?  (Read 13628 times)

The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Quote from:    FOI   http://tinyurl.com/nzj778o      


Hamas, <is> the Palestinian terrorist organization that has publicly committed itself to eliminating the State of Israel.........

In the days after Hamas captured and murdered three Israeli teens and the subsequent, unfortunate murder of an Arab teen, Israel's overtures to Hamas to de-escalate the violence were met with increased missile fire into Israel.

........ Hamas is raining down missiles from Gaza at a rate of one every 10 minutes. Six million Israelis, comprising 75 percent of Israel's population, are under siege. Israel is again finding it necessary to defend itself against terrorists whose agenda is to wipe the Jewish nation off the map.

........When the three Israeli teens were captured, Palestinian Arabs celebrated in the streets. When their lifeless bodies were discovered, Palestinian Arabs threw rocks at the Israeli ambulances sent to recover them.

Contrast this......  ........behavior to Israel's response when the Arab teen was killed. The Israeli radicals were quickly arrested, and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called the boy's parents to apologize. Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has offered no condolences to the parents of the Israeli boys......

After several days of appealing to Hamas to end the violence, Israel launched "Operation Protective Edge" to defend its citizens.......... The goal of the mission is to destroy Hamas's infrastructure of rocket launchers, rocket-storage facilities, command centers, and leadership...........

While it indiscriminately fires missiles at Israeli villages, intending to kill and injure Israeli men, women, and children, Hamas continues to shield its missile launchers and weapons depots by positioning them in residential Arab homes, schools, hospitals, and mosques.

Israel takes unprecedented care to warn residents with phone calls, leaflets, and warning shots before destroying the targets..........



The questions are:  

Does Israel have justification* to claim a "Natural Right to Self-Defense"  based on the recent activity of Hamas?

Do you see the Gaza Palestinians as being just caught in the crossfire, or do they have a level of culpability?

What's your take overall?

*Noun: justification
1. Something (such as a fact or circumstance) that shows an action to be reasonable or necessary
2. A statement in explanation of some action or belief
  • Last Edit: 2014-08-08, 07:41:20 by SmileyFaze

  • rjhowie
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #50
Israel is a rogue State if ever there was one. It only exists due to the US taxpayer, American fundamentalists still living in a past long one. We are constantly told about how wonderful Israel is as a democratic country and all the usual Zionist myths and lies.  On the old Opera forums I mentioned much of the clandestine stuff it gets involved in and even amongst it's own people. Stealing British, Australian passports for agents to use to go and kill someone the actions of it's armies against the occupied and so on. It is dying to have a go at Iran and maybe it should and then get it's come comeuppance as it is overdue. Soldiers who misuse their authority, act horribly and kill large numbers of the incontinent. That neo-fascist Israel refuses to recognise a homeland for Palestinians is yet another joke on the word 'democracy' or rights.  I also detailed how Israel internally treated Ethiopian Jews as something to be kept at the end of a pole and Christians sometimes get that too.

All the buk about Iran H bombs but Israel and America keeps silent on what Israel has.  The Zionists demand that all the land they are is illegally is theirs as it was theirs 3,000 years ago. Their spiritually however is a bit of something else when one considers that they were to be put out for ever! They are no fifferent from the 3rd Reich of the 1930's in land expansion, invading, refusing to give up territory that is not theirs. Of course they get away with it becausehey US is so far up their behind. If ever a showdown came and that damn arrogant country was on the verge of collapse what great news that would be. And you know what? America would cobble together some excuse and make their nonsense about rights and freedoms even more ludicrous.

How many terrorists were killed in the dreadful attack on Gaza? We know fine well it was the civilians who took the brunt in such an overcrowded place and on top of that the Jews hem the place in along the coast as well. It is a despicable, Zionist place that misuses Old Testament and European history and time and time again gets off with anything it does because of the veto exercised in their favour at the UN Security Council. Blotzreigs, Gestapo style secret actions, assassinations, lies. Yeah maybe in hindsight Europe has an influence! Dam the country.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • tt92
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #51
I have to agree that killing someone because he is incontinent is hard to defend.

Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #52
Soldiers who misuse their authority, act horribly and kill large numbers of the incontinent.

I tried very hard and came up with nothing.

I tried this...
late 14c., "wanting in self restraint," from Old French incontinent, from Latin incontinentem (nominative incontinens) "incontinent, immoderate, intemperate," from in- "not, opposite of" (see in- (1)) + continens (see continent ). Originally chiefly of sexual appetites; sense of "unable to control bowels or bladder" first attested 1828.
...and that didn't help.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #53
Howie's even older than I thought... Or less educated. (Is that even possible? :) ) But his prejudices run deep!
"It's the Joos..." explains all the world's problems, for some.
I liked what Jimmy "J.J." Walker said long ago: "Look at Ireland. No Jews, no blacks; and still they find something to kill each other over... White people are creative!"
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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  • Barulheira
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #54
I suppose I am in continent. I hope it helps.

  • rjhowie
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #55
Shows how much you know Oakdale and that isn't much so easy to work you out. And as for Ireland racism is active there too.

On that rogue haven of Zionism it shows the propaganda we get about how wonderful Israel is even though it acts like a ME imperialist. It doesn't think the Palestinians should be allowed a State and how arrogant is that one? okay for them but not someone else.  The number of times their military has acted wrongly is a long list. The country treats Jews from places it is not keen on like rubbish and gets away with anything thanks to it's US funders. Throw in stealing land, misusing people and restricting their rights and we see another typical hypocrisy. If it does not suit the ex-colonists on this forum then you get a label and the Jews get away with murder - practically too. Maybe one day the place might be more honest about it's own H bomb matter hbut don't hold the proverbial breath.

There is no country more up the mental arse of Israel than America but there again all the hype from fundamentalist Christians plus the Jewish influenced media and the money barons explains much. Maybe Israel should attack Iran and then we might get rid of the damn Zionist control freaks.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #56
And as for Ireland racism is active there too.
Oh? What races are there there? Do tell! :)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #57
Why you shouldn't watch so much TV:
Quote
If anyone needs further evidence of why the news agencies often can't be trusted to report accurately on Israel and the Palestinians, and why major news outlets such as the New York Times and the BBC should stop repeating agency copy without verifying it, here is an important example from this weekend.

According to Italian and Spanish news outlets and according to the Vatican's own website, Pope Francis told Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas that he could be an angel of peace. "May you be an angel of peace," he urged Abbas, effectively saying that if Abbas would take the decision to accept one of the peace offers that various Israeli prime ministers have made to him, or at least make a serious counter-offer, he could be an angel of peace. The pope did not say that Abbas - infamous for ordering the Munich Olympic massacre, among many other atrocities - was "an angel of peace."
(source)
I plead with you, Howie, to take the poor decades-long "displaced" Palestinians into your large and largely unpopulated northern part of the major British isle, since their Arab neighbors -even after concerted "efforts" by the U.N.- seem continually uninterested in their plight!
Surely, they are culturally and politically simpatico! (How -exactly- I don't know... But I could expound a likely scenario, if you asked nicely! :) ) And your "nation"'s birth-rate requires some propping up, no? :)

The piece ends:
Quote
Meanwhile the website of the official Radio Vatican doesn't even report on the Pope's angels comment at all, apparently judging it unimportant.

Former Middle East reporters such as myself ("The Case of Reuters") and Matti Friedman (who used to work at AP's Jerusalem bureau) have long warned about the impartiality of the major news agencies coverage of the Middle East.

But then too often do reporters and editors at the New York Times, BBC, and elsewhere seem to be happy reporting on what they want to hear, rather than on what was actually said or done, when it comes to the Palestinians and Israel.
(I expect few to read a whole article, or to honestly parse what their tellies and favorite newspapers tell them... So: I post the last few paragraphs too.)
What about the odyssey of the Palestinians is not understood -- by everyone who's given it any thought?
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Just in case you missed it: "the impartiality of the major news agencies coverage of the Middle East" means "the partiality of etc....". What prompts such, propels it, and purifies it, as a liberal trope does indeed mystify me...
  • Last Edit: 2015-05-20, 07:37:02 by OakdaleFTL
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • rjhowie
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #58
As you are a Yank Oakdale, I will understand that you don't know much about the outside world. Racism does exist in places like Dublin and regarding immigrants.  Racism also exists in your pal Israel and I raised that in the Opera and this Forum.  Now being a non-Jew and living in the 4th ME Reich and citizenship is a struggle. Even Jews who are non-white can be added. Zionism is flourishing in the country but overlooked by the land of the free and home of the brave.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #59
Racism does exist in places like Dublin and regarding immigrants.
Yes. I've heard tell they let in Scots, and vice versa! Silly people... :)
Racism also exists in your pal Israel [...]
Are the Jews and Arabs (and Ethiopians) not human? (If you prick them, do they not bleed? Etc.) Racism is a human fault, as wide-spread as Man himself.
Now being a non-Jew and living in the 4th ME Reich and citizenship is a struggle.
Yes: Civil rights, an economy that rewards initiative and talent, the vote and representation in various levels of government and judiciary! Sounds very Nazi-like to a Scot like you ... does it?
Why?

Perhaps you just prefer the Stalinist mode!? :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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  • Barulheira
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #60
'Ever pricked a dog? :left:

Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #61
Perhaps you just prefer the Stalinist mode!?  :)

Careful Oak!

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #62
I don't think the Queen Mum would take me out... (But even she were about to, I'd make the time to apologize for Barack Obama's "gifts" to her, shortly after he became president -- but already after he'd reached his stride!)
  • Last Edit: 2015-05-22, 00:58:11 by OakdaleFTL
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • rjhowie
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #63
You can actually be amusing Oakdale. When it comes to national racism who can beat America? Right from the start and that wee bit of paper for rights and such it was only legal for whites. Racism was endemic. You had an army during WW2 which had to have Apartheid to avoid white going daft being with blacks. If it was not so serious it would be amusing fighting racist Nazis. Even today race is a nation-wide matter in cities, work, police and much else. At the last Presidential farce race was a national issue. Not surprised your israeli pals often exercise their own racial matters and it is a close pals act between the USA and Zionist land. Israel only exists with US taxpaters dish outs and military hardware support. On the other side of the coin so much of the corporate control and media in the US is Jewish involved.

For all your guff about rights, freedoms and all the usual baloney Israel gets away with anything because it knows the US will exercise a veto at the UN. That the Palestinians cannot have a proper State is a damn disgrace and you lot with all your keech about rights and freedoms are a disgrace. Israel steals land, evicts people from their homes and farms it even persecutes Jews from Africa,etc. The two of you do have something very deeply in common - hypocrisy. The Protocols of Zion may well have been daft but the bosom pals between nut job land and the Zionistist is a damn dangerous partnership.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #64
When it comes to national racism who can beat America?
England -- later called Great Britain. Certainly! But you, boy-o don't like history.
Sobeit.

Many others come to mind. But -at present- I'll only deal with the hypocrites-in-chief! Since one of their most minor minions is prosecuting...
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A thought occurs to me: When that author mentioned "Wee Willie Winkie" was he perhaps referring to the Scots incompetent manhood? :)
Howie, keep it in your pants! Or make good use of it. Stop jerking off in public -- you're embarrassing everyone.
(Well, not everyone: Some revel in your comeuppance. You knew that, right?)
Is it your contention, that America invented Racism? Or, that without America, Racism would have long since subsided...?

The only question remaining is: What kind of fool are you? :)
  • Last Edit: 2015-05-23, 07:02:52 by OakdaleFTL
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #65

Oh? What races are there there? Do tell! :)


Plenty.



Ireland was fairly late in the switch from emigration to immigration, though in these days of increased wealth and easy travel, migration is everywhere. The people on this planet are having a ball.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #66
And despite all the turmoil "evidenced" on TVs the world over much of the world is quite pacific...
But how, I ask you, does one "negotiate" with a group that calls for your nation's annihilation?

Isn't that the question this thread meant to ask? (Or should have...)
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Races?!

Many years ago I witnessed a few young guys driving their cars 'round the Drive-Thru lane of a local fast food establishment. They drove very fast!
It was after midnight, so business wasn't stiffled. But after a half-hour the squealing tires and revving engines had begun to annoy me. (I worked at a shop next door.)
I accosted the "racers" and asked them to quit. I was told, "We're just going 'round in circles. What could happen?"
I muttered, "Not a NASCAR fan, are you?" Much louder, I threatened calling the police...
The "racers" quit for the evening, and lived another day.
Yay!
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • rjhowie
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #67
You certainly are a dancer Oakdale.

A country that is created with a wonderfully principled Constitution and the creators made it clear the system was for whites and nobody else. That was right from the START. Northern States looked down on those south of the Mason-Dixon and tutted on slavery whilst ignoring the hard fact that slave ships docked at northern harbours. That arch hypocrite the wonderful Abarham Lincoln (groan) who's statue I ignored on my two visits to nutjob land gave out the guff about slavery. And what do you know in private conversations he made it clear that voting and staus for blacks was a nono. Right into the 1960's there were still non-whites without a vote, getting violence and how do you explain all the racial history violence right from the start I mention? Principles mean sod all except on paper. Even your army as I reminded had to operate racist rules during WW2 fighting racist Germans. Brilliant! So be as satirical as you feel inclined to because the principles do not match the practice and it is still the same today. Yeah blah about principles, freedoms, rights, constitution but in practice means nothing. The only success in your long racial circus is there are no longer 2 million KKK members running police, city councils, police officers and so on. You are a bit more subtle about the keeping the blacks down nowa.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #68
Right into the 1960's there were still non-whites without a vote, getting violence and how do you explain all the racial history violence right from the start
We learned it from the British...

Of course, not from the Scots! They're only British whan tae ca git som'ting oot it!

I've a great respect for the intellectual prowess of Scotsmen! They've usually left your isle for "greener" pastures! Back when they stayed home, you, Howie, would have been the square peg...
How -I ask- did you become a Socialist?
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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  • rjhowie
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #69
As I have pointed out - anything outside of the Rockwell man is socialist so no surprise your country is in a damn internal mess. Creating wars everywhere, police out of control with guns, tens of millions of poor. All self-created so kind of shows great at being politically inept. We have a wider tolerance in our system and indeed representation.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ersi
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #70
Under Trump, USA moved its embassy to Jerusalem, recognising it as Israel's capital. Under Biden, USA still claims self-defense for Israel, but not for Palestine.



And as usual, Israel started it. Not for self-defense, not even for pre-emptive self-defense, but because it is opportune for Netanyahu yet again.

The fighting has, for the moment, disrupted efforts by Netanyahu's political opponents to form a new government coalition, prolonging his effort to stay in office after inconclusive elections. His rivals have three weeks to agree on a coalition but need the support of an Arab party, whose leader has said he cannot negotiate while Israel is fighting in Gaza.

  • Frenzie
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  • Administrator
Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #71
It does come across as a fairly transparent, reckless attempt by Netanyahu to prolong his time in politics. :(

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #72
Hamas fired how many rockets into Israel...?
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • Frenzie
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Administrator
Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #73
Hamas is a terrorist organization and their rocket attacks should be unconditionally condemned. But this was also calculated political recklessness and opportunism by Netanyahu. His political end is nigh and apparently, cynically, a battle for Jerusalem during Ramadan is just the thing. Close the gate, close the Al-Aksa mosque without provocation, kick people out of their homes, wait for the Hamas deplorables to take the bait. Mission accomplished, even if presumably slightly more so than expected.

Also keep in mind Hamas has more popular support among Palestinians now because of that wretched wall and because of the increasingly apartheid-based state.

  • Frenzie
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Administrator
Re: The State of Israel ~ vs ~ Hamas ---- A "Natural Right" to Self-Defence?
Reply #74
Here's an opinion piece from Israel.
The security mavens want as much war as possible because in their heart of hearts they like wars, those are their strongest memories. A war that is never enough for them, just to hit them, to prove that we're strong. All the wars in Gaza and Lebanon, which didn't accomplish anything, didn't teach them anything either. They stick to their guns. If only we had listened to them at the time, there would have been tens of thousands of dead, and only then would the desired victory have been attained, which will never be attained.

Like fata morgana in the desert, they approach victory, and it distances itself from them. It will never be attained by force. Since we didn't listen to them, they're trying again. To strike and smash, a ludicrous caricature from the mouths of those who were once generals, or those who dreamed of being generals and weren't.