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Topic: Is there a police psychology problem?? (Read 82190 times)

  • rjhowie
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Is there a police psychology problem??
This latest terrible situation where the man was gunned down is horrific. Yeah, yeah, we know there are thousands of policemen over the pond who are principled and beyond reproach but time after time we have had incidents about over-reaction. And before someone jumps in about the alleged stealing of a box of cigars we should note that the police gunman did not know about that. Involved in a confrontation between the officer and the man (black as the norm) the man knelt down and raised his hands asking not to be shot. He was shot but more than once even though unarmed. When this spread into a town protest the sheriff department went bananas running about like solders - and just as I said months ago this is an increasing situation in the country.

At least the State Governor showed more wisdom than the local police acting like someone had invaded the nation. No doubt pressed by the White House but none of this should have been needed there or in the other places where we have seen pictures and film of policemen beating up people with a vengeance or shooting like cowboys. In the majority of cases the officer or officers never get done and only oddly. Isn't this way things are going a bit worrying?
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ensbb3
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??
Reply #1
Worrying? I found footage of the "alleged" robbery and says there was probably cause to shoot. One source suggested a struggle beforehand. But what you read saw is prolly more like this? 
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/turmoil-tear-gas-give-way-hope-ferguson

It still says nothing that suggests any overreaction by police reports. Of course it was racially charged. Naturally his daddy wasn't there but his uncle sure had no idea how his nephew could be so caught up in alleged activities. Never mind he stole drug paraphernalia (that's what the cigars are for) in broad daylight and got caught walking down the middle of the road (probably high) like he owned it. No way that man could of struggled with police and tried to run. Of course an armchair quarterback is always out of situational context.    

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??
Reply #2
I don't have much to say about this incident; the "news" is, as usual, not trustworthy... So, I'll wait and see before I make up my mind; and, in fact, I may never do so: These things seldom are cut-and-dried.

But I thought I'd pass this along, as a likely to be neglected part of the picture.
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • tt92
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??
Reply #3
Rj, our resident expert on all things American, has spoken. Further discussion is pointless.

  • jseaton2311
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??
Reply #4
Reminds me a bit of the Trayvon Martin case here in Florida last year, except that nobody really saw or knew what happened for sure other than George Z.  The travesty was that they made a racial issue out of it when it really wasn't, but I stayed out of that one and I'll do the same now.   :knight:  :cheers:
James J

  • mjmsprt40
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??
Reply #5
The only thing I know "for sure" is that Ferguson is a Near-North suburb of St. Louis. I found that out early today quite by chance, since my job this morning took me South of St. Louis and I needed to know where in Missouri I was going. Washington, MO-- West-Southwest of STL.

This is only going to get worse of course. When angry crowds burn, loot and pillage every business in the area, businesses suddenly have real good reason for not trying to open up there again-- so-- no jobs, amongst other things. Think "Detroit" or certain West and South neighborhoods of Chicago. Some of those neighborhoods are only just now beginning to come back after the rioting in 1968. Burn, loot and pillage-- sounds like a good plan to make your community better.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

  • ensbb3
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??
Reply #6
There's an overwhelming problem in the welfare class; Ignorance and justification by the system. (Yes, the system rj argues isn't there) Not everyone who gets on welfare stays there but there is a sense of entitlement and culture that revolves around people who choose to live off the system. Primarily, have as many kids as possible with as many fathers as possible to maximize free income... The affects on the family unit is astonishing with no easy fix.

  • rjhowie
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??
Reply #7
You really are so very conceited and rather infantile tt92. Instead of being able to give a valid answer you resort to sniping at me. Anyway there is if we were to follow your stuff about me much to be worried about in the ex-colonies. Anyway open to the issue at hand and not the excuse to avoid the truth.

The reports here in Gt Britain from reputable channels stated that the policeman involved was not aware of the incident in the shop where no weapon was apparently used. Looked more like intimidation from a hulking man against a small shopper. Now as for the killing there was a dispute between the man and the policeman BUT the civilian got down on his knees and put his hands up. That to anyone with any common sense puts him at a disadvantage with an armed policeman does it not? he cannot do anything to the officer. However the policeman shoots him while the bloke is kneeling and NOT ONCE but several times so why was that necessaries??

This was followed up by the police force (barely a couple of dozen sheriff's men) switching to looking like a military unit and that IS becoming a semi-regular thing over the pond. Even when non-violent protesters went over to speak to them they got pionted at by rifles. This same sheriff's people had a sniper rifle and heavier stuff to shhot than normal. Even this small town police force they had military style vehicles and equipment and is part of a general drift by much of the police service becoming more and more military like and act like soldiers rather than police. My undertaking is that the place is overwhelmingly black but there are only 3 black officers.

Now i can understand the sensible American being concerned about these directions but the snidy ones that do appear here fall back on anyone daring to challenge things as beyond the pale.  So i have reiterated what the score was and there was no need for a ppoliceman to multi shoot an unarmed man on his knees. I am happy to accept there are tens of thousands of valued policemen over there but there is an increasing keenness on too many forces to adopt a para-military state of affairs. in doing so they could be letting people elsewhere assume the place is so violent and dangerous or instead of actually them going over the damn top. You do have a police problem and instead of dealing with it your mindset is one of yakking out about simply being onto-American and too nationalistic. Try facing the matter instead. On the other hand maybe it is an annoying incident (of many with your police) that makes you weant to avoid such issues?  :(
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • mjmsprt40
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??
Reply #8
This is one of those things that gets hard to debate. No matter how I look at it, it looks like the Ferguson police  sought the worst possible response to the situation and ran with it.

Shooting an unarmed man never "looks good". Hitting the streets in a military presence unlike anything seen outside of Afghanistan-- another bell-ringer. Covering up important information until it's dragged out of them-- another bright move.

I could keep going, the news has been full of it-- but seriously, if they had cloned Barney Fife and staffed the entire police department with them, the Barney Fife clones probably wouldn't have done it this bad.

Somewhere, some official has got to be thinking "This coulda been handled better".
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

  • tt92
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??
Reply #9
Are you implying that being onto-American is a good thing or a bad thing?

  • mjmsprt40
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??
Reply #10

Are you implying that being onto-American is a good thing or a bad thing?


What in tarnation is "onto-American"? Maybe you mean "anti-American" which seems to be RJH's specialty--- he can be as anti-American as he wants, he's still got a thing going for the old British Empire I think, and secretly wishes the glory days could happen once again.

But, in any case: This isn't about pro or anti-American sentiments. This is about ham-handed actions by the Ferguson police department which just made things worse instead of better, if what I hear is any indication.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

  • ensbb3
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??
Reply #11
However the policeman shoots him while the bloke is kneeling and NOT ONCE but several times so why was that necessaries??


I don't buy this. Reports I've read say he was up to 35ft away. And the crime he committed was violent, regardless of the officer's awareness, it sets a precedence for behavior. Odd the other guy who did surrender survived. If you struggle with police, fight to get away or god forbid reach for their gun, you are deemed an immanent threat whether the officer knows why you struggled or not. You can get shot. That makes perfect sense to someone who isn't a convicted criminal. When cops shoot they are trained to fire three or more times... not only once, ever.

Not saying this was the best or only solution. But when you get anyone's adrenaline pumping, especially an officer's, you run the risk of getting shot. Your attempt to make-believe this was an execution by a competent, long serving officer who left a survivor is ridiculous. Media thrives off ignorance like that.
  • Last Edit: 2014-08-17, 00:51:54 by ensbb3

  • tt92
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??
Reply #12


Are you implying that being onto-American is a good thing or a bad thing?


What in tarnation is "onto-American"? Maybe you mean "anti-American" which seems to be RJH's specialty--- he can be as anti-American as he wants, he's still got a thing going for the old British Empire I think, and secretly wishes the glory days could happen once again.

But, in any case: This isn't about pro or anti-American sentiments. This is about ham-handed actions by the Ferguson police department which just made things worse instead of better, if what I hear is any indication.

I was quoting rj. He said something about "onto-American" that probably makes no sense even if he explains what "onto-american" means to him.

  • jseaton2311
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??
Reply #13
 
This is one of those things that gets hard to debate. No matter how I look at it, it looks like the Ferguson police  sought the worst possible response to the situation and ran with it.


No doubt that a bad situation was made worse by a bungling small-town Sheriff's Dept., but eventually this will come down to the question of whether the shooting of Michael Brown was legal.  My brother is a lawyer and so we do discuss points of law and not too much personal opinions.  Constitutionally, police officers are allowed to shoot under two circumstances, 1. To protect their life or the life of another innocent party (also know as the "defense-of-life" standard).  2. To prevent a suspect from escaping, but only if the officer has probable cause to think the suspect has committed a serious violent felony. 

The key to both of these legal standards is that it doesn't matter whether there is an actual threat when force is used. Instead, what matters is the officer's "objectively reasonable" belief that there is a threat. Officers can't justify their conduct just based on whether their intentions are good--they have to demonstrate that their actions were "objectively reasonable", given the circumstances and compared to what other police officers might do.  Moreover, what's "objectively reasonable" changes as the circumstances of the situation change. 

Legally, therefore, when Michael Brown no longer posed a threat, the officer (Darren Wilson), needed to stop shooting.  To justify the shooting, Wilson would need to establish that, right up until the last shot was fired, he felt Brown continued to pose a threat to him--whether he actually was or not. 

At one point it is alleged that Brown was struggling for officer Wilson's weapon and a shot was fired from within the police cruiser.  If so, then at that point lethal force may have been justified, however, that doesn't mean that a few seconds later, when the circumstances changed, that Wilson could still legally use lethal force. 

If this goes to trial, it will get very sticky when defense lawyers try to show to a jury (truth or not), what was going through the mind of officer Wilson.  And lawyers, by the nature of what they do, are only interested in the truth when it comes to showing that the other side is lying.   :knight:  :cheers:
James J

  • rjhowie
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??
Reply #14
Leaving aside tt92's inability to properly address the query and do a suitable dancing act I would thank mjsmsprt40 for his more sensible and appreciated answer. It is okay for closed minds to ignore what is a semi repeated thing on television news and the impression being given. So my thanks to the man from the Windy City and better than ignoring something when it doesn't suit some mindsets.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ensbb3
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??
Reply #15
You just prefer a bias media's mindset. The mindset that is working to spur rioting rather than solutions for finding the truth. The side that wants the drama and is willing to buy into racial tension and the word of a less than reliable party's opinion. These people are always innocent when you ask. Why you are so eager to take the word of a street thug over a trained officer off hearsay only shows how little your opinion differs from hooliganism. Naturally you're commenting on mindsets and you have no idea what they are. The court is what decides and the more ignorance is spread the more the ignorant believe. And the less likely the balance of probability can be weighed accurately.

  • mjmsprt40
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??
Reply #16
The shooting that touched this riot off MAY have been justified. Then again, maybe not. After that, though, it sure looks like everybody in Ferguson from the mayor on down to the bum asking for change on the street-corner all took crazy pills. It wasn't until the state police came in on Thursday night that some semblance of sanity began to happen, and that appears not to have lasted.

Here's a clue, assuming anybody from Ferguson is actually reading this: First, if you really want riots one sure way to produce one is to have the police face down the public in full riot gear backed up by military personnel carriers. Even a quiet, hide-in-the-shadows and run-from-a-fight person like me has a touch point where they'll stand and fight back, and this sort of thing will likely bring it out.
Second, to the rioters and looters: If you want to make your community look like a shelled out war zone for the next thirty years, all you have to do is loot businesses and torch things. I guarantee that nobody in his right mind will want to build there again for a long, long time. Insurance tends not to pay for riot damage and losses to looting, so many of the mom-and-pop businesses you're looting and burning are gone for good. I know what I speak of here: 63rd Street East of the Dan Ryan Expressway has looked like---a war took place there-- since the late '60s/early '70s. It's only just now starting to come back, a little at a time. If you want vacant store fronts and vacant lots, just keep up the looting and burning, and you'll have a hellhole in no time. Of course, you won't have any place to buy food, or gas, or anyplace that hires anybody--- but I guess that's not my business
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

  • ensbb3
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??
Reply #17
Rj was singing a different tune when his country erupted in rioting over not so different circumstances. As far as I know this is still confined to one district.

  • rjhowie
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??
Reply #18
How ludicrous can you be ensbb3??

A man kneels in surrender and hands up (it is usual to raise hands isn't it?0 against a police officer with a gun and instead of being arrested and handcuffed he is shot SEVERAL TIMES. Interestingly this particular sherrif's depart in ferguson is not that good at community stuff and too keen to act like soldiers than police officers. My further understanding is that there are only 3 black officers in the town. Anyway I have given you the basic facts. An unarmed "thug" who surrenders is okay for shooting several times? You and t need to improve your common sense when grown up. It will be interesting to see how you justify this shocking action and whioch has been repeated in other places.

As for your attempt to diverge away from the truth and mention Britain may I remind you that the riots you try to use as a cover happened in one of 4 countries that make up Great Britain - England. There were none at all in Wales, Scotland, Ulster. Neither you or your pal have explained why it is okay in your nation to gun down people who surrender and usually by several bullets. Shoudl be interesting. As I said, mjsmsprt40 is a bit more sensible than you two nut jobs. Explanation please.......
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ensbb3
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??
Reply #19
My further understanding is that there are only 3 black officers in the town.

Race isn't a qualification. You keep showing your ignorance. At best this is about class culture. (Do I need to explain why there are no 'government assistance' police officers?)

"Witnesses say" isn't evidence when you understand the cultural influence. Hearsay isn't admissible in court, precedence is. The officer was treated for injuries and the suspect had just committed a violent crime. That's called reasonable doubt. You now have to prove "witnesses" aren't lying. Your understanding comes from nothing. News reports of people saying they saw it (now days later) but nothing done to prove it. Early reports read very different. You are caught up in the idiotic media's attempt to play both sides for a story. I'm saying there isn't just the side you want to believe. Nor is it beneficial to proceed with tossing fuel on this fire. Of course you can't understand that because you want to believe America is out of control. Which is why you don't like the, really, pointless comparison I made. (Tho, this is confined to a suburb of one city ;) ) Like all those rioters, you're letting the fact you wanna believe race is an issue skew your simple minded emotions into taking a side.

The officer's actions are to be judged by giving due process. Not sitting on your ass watching the telly.
  • Last Edit: 2014-08-17, 23:04:33 by ensbb3

  • ensbb3
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??
Reply #20
he is shot SEVERAL TIMES.

To add to what you can't understand:

This only bolsters the case that the officer was under duress. An unarmed and handcuffed man at point-blank range requires one bullet. They are trained to fire multiple rounds at a threat then gauge the threat level from there.

Is there actually a 'culture of injustice' perception problem??????
Reply #21


What do you think?




What do you think?
  • Last Edit: 2014-08-18, 01:02:44 by SmileyFaze

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??
Reply #22
What do you think?
Is he retarded? It isn't the Democrats or Republicans that caused this. If they voted for Republicans, the same thing would have happened.

  • mjmsprt40
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Re: Is there a police psychology problem??
Reply #23
The governor of Missouri is a Democrat, and following the logic the whole state of Missouri should be in flames right now. It isn't. The problem is in one suburb of St Louis.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: Is there a police psychology problem??
Reply #24
He uses a couple things most people can agree on 1) You can't count on government 2)Looting is wrong in the hopes of getting people to agree to his rant. It's like the old trick in telephone sales, get the customer to agree to a couple things to make it harder to say "no" to closing the sale. The trouble is that only works if the customer simple-minded. He can't close the sale for me that this is somehow caused by Ferguson having a Democratic mayor. There are numerous economic and social factors at play.

Than there's the reason for the shooting. The autopsy showed that he was shot at least six times:

[img=http://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/08/18/us/SUB-JP-BROWN-2/SUB-JP-BROWN-2-master495.jpg [/url]

Right now there doesn't seem to be an agree about why. What we've heard from witnesses would seem to indicate the shooting was unnecessary, but we haven't heard Officer Wilson's side. If he wanted to murder a young, black man like some claim; a single shot to the head would have sufficed. That being the case, why the shots to the arm? There is a possibility that he was trying to wound Brown to subdue him before resorting to killing shots.