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Topic: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland? (Read 66796 times)

  • jax
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What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
So what is happening in those barely populated areas linked to the North Atlantic ocean?

  • jax
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Re: What's migrating in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #150
A typical case of needing to know the questions to make any sense of it at all. Such negativity toward immigration from, say, Australia would be surprising. Presumably the "border" states are negative toward immigrants from respectively North Africa, the Middle East, and Russia. I do wonder what's up in Czechia. Russians too?


The map is based on the survey mentioned here: Sweden by far EU's most pro-immigrant nation

Quote from: The Local
No fewer than 72 percent of Swedes said they were either fairly positive or very positive towards immigration from countries outside the European Union, with an even greater 82 percent welcoming immigrants from other EU countries. 

No other country came anywhere close, with only 48 percent of the citizens of the next most open countries, Croatia and Spain, saying they felt positive to immigrants from outside the EU.

On average, a solid majority of 57 percent of European citizens described themselves as either fairly or very negative to immigration from outside the EU, with just 35 percent in favour.


In principle 28,000 people across the EU were asked the same questions, but that would have to be in their local languages, and with outliers like in this case translation issues should be suspect. Interestingly, while the prose matches the map, the chart does not (update/correction?). The chart makes Sweden less of an outlier, and the EU 28 more positive to immigration. 

Sweden's migration policy seems more refugee/demand driven than Norway's, or most other European countries. When there is a major war or conflict (like in Yugoslavia or now in Syria-Iraq) the numbers spike. The largest refugee group lately has been Syrians, Iraqi, Iranians, Afghans, Eritreans. The most recent reports have a large fall in Syrians, but a rapid rise in Ukrainians (though Ukrainians are still not one of the major groups). 

Asylum seekers per million Q3 2014:

Sweden: 2925
Denmark: 1260
Malta: 970
Switzerland: 955
Austria: 915
Germany: 695 (biggest recipient by total numbers, Sweden #2, Italy #3)
EU-28 average: 350
UK: 140
Czech Republic: 35

There seems to be a positive correlation between attitudes to immigration and number of asylum seekers.

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #151
I suppose these attitudes somehow make it back to prospective asylum seekers.

  • Belfrager
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #152
Those numbers don't allow to conclude anything at all. What are "asylum seekers"? refugees? non documented migrants?
For some countries people goes because those are rich countries, to others because they're the nearest option available and for even other countries people go and doesn't appear in the statistics.

Search for "Living in the Limbo", published by JRS International, an NGO from the Jesuits, the best study I know about refugees in Europe, not the EU mambo jambo statistics.
A matter of attitude.

  • jax
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #153
The New Cold War Is Getting Serious: US To Send B-52s To Sweden



Nice headline, anyway.


  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #154
The B-52 was unveiled in 1952 (...so was I...!) and still performs its useful functions. :)

I remember them at Edwards AFB when I was there (...mumble-ty years ago.) Awesome war machines. And LOUD!
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #155
Sending planes to Sweden is just another childish ploy but the world's No 1 imperial clowns. It has been sending planes around it's Cold War opposition for damn years.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #156
And Howie has been blathering --long before the Internet!-- far longer.

The B-52 is a venerable war machine. The Howie is a venal and ignoble peace machine!
He'll surrender to anyone who asks! He might as well be French! :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #157
Well dear teaser you had half a million in Vietnam against all those amateurs and you looked and acted just like those Frenchies! You also trained the Iraqi Army and vwalla - the tradiion is still there.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #158
you had half a million in Vietnam against all those amateurs and you looked and acted just like those Frenchies
First, the French didn't do so badly; certainly not militarily. At the time, they were the most experienced and most effective counter-insurgency forces the world had ever known.
Second, "those amateurs" were an entire generation and more trained by the Soviets and the ChiComs -- who also supplied them with whatever means they required to wage their war.
Third, we won the actual war. Our "democratic" politicians surrendered, and consigned a million or more Vietnamese to death... To appease the likes of you! (You're damned right I'm resentful.)
That, sir, is one of my country's most reprehensible acts.

You won't mind, if I regret it? :(
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • ersi
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #159

Third, we won the actual war. Our "democratic" politicians surrendered, and consigned a million or more Vietnamese to death... To appease the likes of you! (You're damned right I'm resentful.)
That, sir, is one of my country's most reprehensible acts.

Just to make sure I'm reading this right. You're not saying the war was reprehensible, but rather that the surrender was. Right?

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #160
Good question let's see the answer. as the offering wasn't clear enough. If Oakdale means the involvement was flawed that is fair enough but the way it finished is definitely something else!

In the early days of the fiasco Cardinal Spellman the red socks leader in NY (?) called US troops Christian soldiers and the then dictatorship in Saigon was interestingly enough heavily weighted to members of that denomination even though South Vietnam was overwhelming not of that faith. On one report I watched a US gunboat sailing in the Mekong Delta area passing a small village blasted it with gunfire as it was a "suspected" rebel place. No landing, nothing just suspected and that was enough.  In later years when the regime changed in the South an attempt was made by allies to try and ensure peace in many areas by arming locals and doing local work in self-help, etc. The South Koreans and Australians were excellent at it but somehow the US trailed.

There were successes such as at the Tet offensive which the US did well in and although the ARVN was a mixed bunch there were excellent units there as well. One thing I also remember is an attitude from some military people that they were trying to fight a "normal war" with an opposition that was something else! The US could not adapt and moans about politicians used as an excuse. For me South Vietnam should never have been lost but the US military were in general again not up to dealing with the Viet Cong never mind the N. Vietnamese because they tried to fight a traditional war in wrong circumstances. Due to the basic flaws we seen what then happened in Cambodia and Laos through ineptitude, and for all the techy stuff made no damn difference to the end result and that depressing and tragic fall of Saigon. The departure was sad and also a shambles.

Now Americans go there for a holiday and it touches you to think how many of their countrymen died in a shambolic war that should have been better handled - and won.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #161
Just to make sure I'm reading this right. You're not saying the war was reprehensible, but rather that the surrender was. Right?
The so-called peace and the abandonment of our allies. Mere money would have been enough help to them, since they were a well-trained and effective force by then. But our Congress cut them loose... Wars are always expensive.
Were there strategies that were too brutal? On both sides, probably yes. And there were atrocities committed by both sides. Such is war.
If you're committed to only wars of self-defense, your understanding of human nature is deficient: How could there be a war of self-defense if your commitment were widely shared? :)

So, I guess your question boils down to: Were the political aims of the U.S. involvement in Viet Nam rational?
Is that a correct reading, ersi?
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • ersi
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #162

Just to make sure I'm reading this right. You're not saying the war was reprehensible, but rather that the surrender was. Right?
The so-called peace and the abandonment of our allies. Mere money would have been enough help to them, since they were a well-trained and effective force by then. But our Congress cut them loose... Wars are always expensive.
Were there strategies that were too brutal? On both sides, probably yes. And there were atrocities committed by both sides. Such is war.

Got it. War is expensive and brutal, but needs to be waged, particularly that one needed to be waged at whatever cost.


If you're committed to only wars of self-defense, your understanding of human nature is deficient: How could there be a war of self-defense if your commitment were widely shared? :)

So, you are saying you were doing Congs a favour because you put them on defense? See, even you have your moments of clear honesty. Do it more often.


So, I guess your question boils down to: Were the political aims of the U.S. involvement in Viet Nam rational?
Is that a correct reading, ersi?

No. My question does not boil down to that. My own stance is radically pacifist and you will never comprehend such.

U.S. involvement was not rational, not desired, it lacked any moral motive and lacked beneficial outcome too. There are only irrational and immoral ways to justify the involvement.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #163
Om!

ersi, read this (since it's somewhat closer to your home, and experience); or any number of similar memoirs.

Dear sir: Radical pacifists are the most ruthless people on the planet! They'll sacrifice anything...

进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #164
Not a very good summation about the South Vietnam shambles at all Oakdale. So-called princples and all that jazz and using the usual stuff about in wars both sides can be guilty. You were supposed to be there on high sounding morals and the usual contradiction. Politically you were at sixes and sevens and whether you like it or not you were the same militarily. So many were drafted and hardly volunteers. And anyway you were there for so long you had plenty of time to sort out politics and military debacles.Thousands of young Americans came home injured or dead because you hadn't a clue. No doubt carried away with the 2nd WW and Korea and it showed that no matter how modern an army tries to be and have all sorts of equipment there was something very lacking. You totally messed up and allowed the hammer and scikle to float high out there.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #165
You were supposed to be there on high sounding morals and the usual contradiction.
Just because your old needle is stuck in that record's groove doesn't make it important, RJ.
Many mistakes were made (again, by both sides...) in Viet Nam. (And I don't mean "mistakes" as a euphemism.)
I'll say it again, because you seem to have missed it: Our worst act was abandoning South Vietnam when mere dollars would have likely given them victory and security in their country.
The Russian tanks that invaded the south after our retreat could have been countered. (At least, you remember Tet fairly well...so you know what well-trained troops can do, if they're supplied.)

Is it fair to say that you don't believe the war itself (in its various stages) was a useless abomination? Just bungled... (Please explain to ersi why! I haven't the heart.)
--------------------------------------------------
BTW: Forget the conscript trope. That's been the way of most of the world for most of recorded history. It means little; and most people who'd use it do so only to resort to calumnies about all-volunteer forces...
  • Last Edit: 2015-05-26, 01:36:38 by OakdaleFTL
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • jax
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #166
Swedish Heroes beat Russias Million Voices in the battleground worth counting (apart from ice hockey), Eurovision Song Contest. Both songs were written by Swedes, as were a number of other entries, so victory was imbedded.




Meanwhile, here in Södertälje the Oriental Orthodox Pope (Patriarch) of the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch, the Holiness Moran Mor Ignatius Aphrem II, has been visiting. The Church lay claim to be the first Christians, a not unwarranted claim, though as the world will have it they're becoming less Syrian, from Antioch or otherwise.

  • Last Edit: 2015-05-26, 08:56:32 by jax

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #167
As for South Vietnam Oakdale. Yes that war was exceedingly bungled and mishandled by by your politicians and military. But doesn't help you one iota as it is filed under corruption and incompetence.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #168
But doesn't help you one iota as it is filed under corruption and incompetence.
You can't possibly "file" Howie! You don't know an actual alphabet...
And the Vietnam War was not that often "mishandled" by our military. You've heard of General Abrams?

It goes to show that you can't really learn history from television... (But if that's all you're capable of I guess it's better than nothing. Maybe.)

BTW: How did you tumble to the fact that the Tet Offensive was a disaster for the North? It seems unlikely that the Beeb or RTV would have mentioned it...
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • Belfrager
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #169
Those hats are "Photoshoped".
A matter of attitude.

  • jax
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #170
They certainly look that way, don't they. In the linked video  above it looks slightly less otherwordly.


  • rjhowie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #171
Your military handled things well in Soth Vietnam, Oakdale??

Now there is an open door to out and out stupidity. Apart from odd exceptions you got nowhere. Troops shooting themselves in the foot to get home, doped up with drugs (having wee breaks massacring people) and as I pointed out when it came to pacification and help in the villages, Australia and South Korean soldiers did exceptionally well. Your lot hadn't a clue and 3rd in that list. Plenty of techy stuff and military equipment but you could not cope with the amateurs in the jungle at all. People protesting all over America, draft dodgers everywhere, AWOLs and heaven knows what. Quoting a general makes no damn sense or difference as you were there for years with half a million men and the result you had to get out as fast as you could and the Saigon fleeing was historic. For all the technical boasting the amateurs chased you out.

Your military was a success tory? Dear, oh daer. Quite sad rather than amusing.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • jax
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #172
Now that winter's nearly over, Swedes among least likely to die from cold.

Quote from: The Local
More temperature-related deaths happen on moderately cold or hot days, rather than during heatwaves or freezing spells, according to researchers who studied mortality rates in 13 different countries in a paper published in The Lancet medical journal.

The public health experts studied 74 million deaths in 384 locations between 1985 and 2012, including in Sweden, Canada, Japan and the UK, and discovered that cold weather was responsible for 7.29 percent of all deaths, while heat was a factor in only 0.42 percent.

But the study showed huge differences between nations, with Brits almost twice as likely to die during cold weather (7.8 percent of deaths) compared to Swedes (3.8 percent). In fact, Sweden fared better than nearly all the other countries surveyed as part of the research, with only Taiwan, Brazil and Thailand reporting a lower percentage of deaths linked to moderately cold weather.

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #173
Wonder what is worse in Sweden. Dying of cold or boredom?
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #174
I don't know, RJ: I've seen some Swedish girls in the flesh... Both keeping warm and staving off boredom might be easily done, if one is of a mind. :)
(Of course, if your mind bends differently... Well, you could take a long walk!)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman