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Topic: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland? (Read 66859 times)

  • jax
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What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
So what is happening in those barely populated areas linked to the North Atlantic ocean?

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #75
Well now, I think I really must be intellectually fair to you mjsmsprt40. This is due to you accepting that those who have argued that aliens are here can now be feeling warm about your support. Always feeling it is the greatest place on Earth the aliens would try for the global rulers first. Boy have I had you wrong.  :blush:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • jax
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #76
Then some Scottish, 19 Things Only Scottish People Say (actually a few of those Scandinavians say as well)

Then again we got the Scots Wikipedia for a greater body of work.

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #77
I have in my pile of books the New Testament in traditional Scots (which Gaelic is not). Brilliant and so interesting. Someone once experimented with doing a side off in working class Glaswegian.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #78
The Bible is also available in lolcat.

  • ersi
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #79

The Bible is also available in lolcat.

How cute, except that people of the North tend to pride themselves in that they don't read the Bible. In any language.

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #80
"The North"? Anyway, in English I would recommend The New JPS Translation. In Dutch I'd stick with the seminal translation. Skip the awful New Testament, except maybe Mark. It's not worth it.
  • Last Edit: 2015-02-15, 15:10:31 by Frenzie

  • ersi
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #81

"The North"?

According to surveys, as best as they can be conducted, some East European countries, such as Estonia and Czech Republic, count among the most atheist in the world. The funny thing I have noticed is that Finns and Swedes I have met in real tend to assume themselves being bravely god-defying, even though compared to Estonia religion is deeply pervasive in the society there.

So, the generalisation does not apply when properly investigated, but it applies in terms of people's self-perception.


Anyway, in English I would recommend The New JPS Translation. In Dutch I'd stick with the seminal translation. Skip the awful New Testament, except maybe Mark. It's not worth it.

As to the best Bible translation, the original is probably the best. Some among the academic interlinear editions must be good.

  • jax
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #82
I have moved to Södertälje, the most Christian (and Arab) city in Sweden, where the most Syrian Orthodox and Assyrians have sought refugee from the wars in Iraq and recently Syria. This once small town was famous for taking in more Iraqi refugees than the US and Canada combined during the first Iraqi war, and more recently ISIL and other islamists are a constant source of recruitment. The nearest church is about a hundred meters away. It is the most Christian city I've ever lived in.

  • ersi
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #83
In what sense is Södertälje the most Christian?

1. With churches (and mosques) prominently featuring in the cityscape?
2. People actually populating the churches and mosques?
3. Or people openly admitting it's a good thing to attend to church and mosque services and other religious events?

All these are different things. I know #1 and #2 are common in Sweden, immeasurably more common than in Estonia. However, concerning #3, according to my anecdotal experience, Swedes tend to deny the value of church and religion in their lives, which would make their attitude somewhat closer to the people in the Baltic countries, despite the fact that Swedes still actually go to church anyway.

  • Belfrager
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #84
It is the most Christian city I've ever lived in

Not even think about it my dear jax.
This once small town was famous for taking in more Iraqi refugees than the US and Canada combined during the first Iraqi war,

Yes, refugees are not fool. Try to put them in a southern economically poorer country and you'll see the problems they cause until moved to Swede....
A matter of attitude.

  • jax
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #85
Immigrants to Scandinavia are significantly more religious than the natives, Muslims from Africa and South and West Asia, Eastern Orthodox Christians from West Asia, Western Orthodox from the Balkans and former Soviet Union (though that is a more mixed bunch), Roman Catholics from Poland and South Europe, and partly rest of the world. Whether they stay that way over time remains to be seen. It looks like not.

Sweden and Norway used to be very religious a century ago, the lay movements that were stronger in Norway used to be particularly fervent. Anything that could bring joy on Earth was sinful, people were supposed to suffer and die in preparation of a life somewhat more cheerful thereafter. Quite similar to Scottish Christianity.

The official churches were more Catholic in demeanour, though they had left that denomination behind (until the Catholic mass pilgrimage north started a decade or so ago), they were staid supporters of established society, whatever that society was. As Sweden grew more humanistic, social democratic, secular and into engineering, so did the churches.

I wouldn't say that Södertälje is that outwardly Christian (which as mentioned in this part of the country would be Syrian Orthodox, Assyrian, and also Gnostic), nor that there are that many churches, if they had been Protestant there would've been a prayer house for every second inhabitant, each in a low-scale turf war with the others. Also I think many in those flocks are fairly wayward, religion may be as much a marker of community as of faith. All that said there are a few subtle indicators that there is a religious life. You can hear people talk in buses about religion instead of IT (mind you, they talk about IT too, but not as incessantly). church tax scandals, that kind of things.

  • Belfrager
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #86
All that said there are a few subtle indicators that there is a religious life. You can hear people talk in buses about religion [...]

Better one to get a taxi. It must be like that Swedish cook from the Muppet show.
You chose really strange places to live indeed.
A matter of attitude.

  • ersi
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #87

Immigrants to Scandinavia are significantly more religious than the natives, ...

Can you say "natives" in Sweden? :o What's the word in Swedish? Sannsvenskarna?

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #88
I wouldn't be surprised if there were a cognate for inheems, although its meaning might be subtly different.

  • Macallan
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #89

I wouldn't be surprised if there were a cognate for inheems, although its meaning might be subtly different.

In german that might have unintended side effects :right:
( Einheimische vs. Eingeborene ) :left:

  • jax
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #90
Words like 'natives' and 'tribes' (and in Norwegian/Swedish 'village') have rarely been used on Europeans, seen as condescending and generally fallen off the language, in Norwegian/Swedish as well as English. Incidentally 'native' is 'innfødt' in Norwegian and Danish, 'infödd/inföding' in Swedish. Yes, it means in-born (as opposed to in-bred).

There are some subtle (and not-so-subtle) differences between Norway and Sweden. Swedish has 'inhemsk' (in-home-ish). I guess that is the distinction in the two German words as well, based on the roots, but I wouldn't bet on it as false friends lurk. Since Sweden has largely lost the use of 'in-born' (native) clumsy phrases like "domestically born" are used instead. Me, as an immigrant, feel free to create my own language. If that unsettles the natives, so much the better. 

This topic has caused some fractious incidents between Sweden and Norway, which together with Denmark have mostly mutually intelligible languages.  Norway after a while half-settled for "ethnic Norwegian" as a term for somebody without recent immigrant background, as a backformation from sporadic use of "ethnic <nationality>" to describe somebody with an immigrant background, hyphenation-nationalities are less popular. This opposed to "Swede" or "Norwegian", which is simply somebody with a Swedish/Norwegian passport, at most born in Sweden/Norway and having citizenship. "Ethnic Norwegian" is a bit of a mongrel, and in Sweden considered racist. (To which there is a point, racists in the 1990s discovered that they could more easily come under the radar of they said "ethnic ..." rather than "... race".)

For immigrant/emigrant there is "innvandrer/utvandrer" or "invandrare/utvandrare", in-wanderer/out-wanderer. Personally I prefer "innflytter", in-mover, newcomer to a house, town, region, independent of whatever borders and boundaries may have been crossed on the way. "Flytte", to move, is supposedly "Flittin'" in Scots.

Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #91
( Einheimische vs. Eingeborene )

Reminds me. I haven't busted Howie's balls about who he considers "indigenous British" (the Picts, Celts?) in a while :left:

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #92
Usual mouth off ignorance of course and being an ex-colonist with a wee bit of knowledge kind of thick to converse with maybe a bit pointless. Usual would-be liberal open mind stuff about the indogenous. Consireing that on this island the general tradition running well into an awful lot of centuries before AD only illustrates his mouthy ignorance. Keep it up sonny and when you grow up you will lokk back at yourself and be squeamish. You know a bit like 60's flower people nutters now living corporate and cumfy lives.....
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ersi
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #93

Words like 'natives' and 'tribes' (and in Norwegian/Swedish 'village') have rarely been used on Europeans, ....

So you can't imagine that tourists from some other continent could come to Europe, walk around with eyes wide open, and say to each other in amazement, "Look at those aborigines!"?

But yeah, ethnic stuff can be complicated.


  • Frenzie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #94

  • jax
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #95
It is well worth seeing, though frankly I found the three Norwegian youths more alien than the Cambodian workers. Thus the first episode, basically all about the three, was most annoying and the latter episodes became gradually better. Short clips, the five episodes go by quickly.

The Norwegians are called "rosabloggere", "pink bloggers", writing (often quite profitably) about fashion, beauty and everything vapid. It's not a term of endearment. Here's one of the blogs.
  • Last Edit: 2015-02-23, 13:25:45 by jax

  • Macallan
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #96

There are some subtle (and not-so-subtle) differences between Norway and Sweden. Swedish has 'inhemsk' (in-home-ish). I guess that is the distinction in the two German words as well, based on the roots, but I wouldn't bet on it as false friends lurk.

It works exactly as you describe in german as well.


Since Sweden has largely lost the use of 'in-born' (native) clumsy phrases like "domestically born" are used instead.

It's similar in german - 'Eingeborene' is usually seen as an oldfashioned, outdated and vaguely racist term and was replaced by 'Ureinwohner' - more or less 'original inhabitants'.


Me, as an immigrant, feel free to create my own language. If that unsettles the natives, so much the better.

We might as well rename the forum :right:

  • jax
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #97
Swedish (and rarely Norwegian) has urinvånare (urinnvåner, which has a Swedish feel to it, Norwegian would be urinnbygger, which is still rare), though it too has fallen out of fashion for "first people, few in numbers, need special protection" or indigenous. By Wikipedia I see the preferred term in German is indigene Völker. That can hardly be indigenous. Danish use aboriginer, while Dutch the more inheems inheemse bevolking. In Swedish it is ursprungsfolk, or in Norwegian simply urfolk. Icelandic frumbyggjar, frum- I had to look up, it means ur-.

These words should be straightforwardly understood in German, and less straightforwardly in English. "vån" is simply Swedish translation/transcription of Wohn. It is used a lot in constructions about construction and living, but only as pre/suf/infix.

Norwegian uses bygg(e(r)), building (build (builds/builder)) instead, as does Icelandic. Bo would be the equivalent of Wohn, by* a town or a city, which of course in Swedish as in German is stad (or simply -sta(n)) or Stadt. Norwegian sted and English stead instead means small settlement (in Norwegian it primarily means place, as it once did in English, and in Dutch stede I see). By comparison in Swedish it is by*  that means small settlement.

These days, just like with English village, -by is mostly used in names developers come up with to make their huge developments sound cozy. Inevitably the new primary meaning of the word village will be "huge urban development that the developer thought was cozy".

* Pronounced like the word bee but using rounded lips, you perverted English speakers you!

  • ersi
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #98

Swedish (and rarely Norwegian) has urinvånare (urinnvåner, which has a Swedish feel to it, Norwegian would be urinnbygger, which is still rare), though it too has fallen out of fashion for "first people, few in numbers, need special protection" or indigenous. By Wikipedia I see the preferred term in German is indigene Völker. That can hardly be indigenous. Danish use aboriginer, while Dutch the more inheems inheemse bevolking. In Swedish it is ursprungsfolk, or in Norwegian simply urfolk. Icelandic frumbyggjar, frum- I had to look up, it means ur-.

Doesn't ursprungsfolk tend to mean the Saami people instead? :left:

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #99
Norwegian uses bygg(e(r)), building (build (builds/builder)) instead, as does Icelandic. Bo would be the equivalent of Wohn, by* a town or a city, which of course in Swedish as in German is stad (or simply -sta(n)) or Stadt. Norwegian sted and English stead instead means small settlement (in Norwegian it primarily means place, as it once did in English, and in Dutch stede I see). By comparison in Swedish it is by*  that means small settlement.

The Dutch words stad and stede are (originally) different inflections of the same word.* Also note that to me the form stede sounds positively archaic, while the reduced form stee sounds merely old-fashioned. This is part of the widespread apocope of the de at the end of such words pretty much since Early Modern Dutch. Cf. sledeslee (sleigh), medemee (with), etc.

* Actually they still are. One city is a stad, two cities are twee steden. But the word stee (place, farm) has split off and the plural is steeën. In older texts the word stad is also often used to mean a more generic place.