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Topic: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland? (Read 66755 times)

  • jax
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What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
So what is happening in those barely populated areas linked to the North Atlantic ocean?

  • jax
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #100


Me, as an immigrant, feel free to create my own language. If that unsettles the natives, so much the better.

We might as well rename the forum :right:


To what? dndsettlers.eu? Or dndunsettlers.eu?

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #101

  • jax
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #102

Doesn't ursprungsfolk tend to mean the Saami people instead? :left:
Yes, it was the transition from Eingeborene to Ureinwohner. The latter in Swedish straightforward urinvånare, of which Saami are a prime example.


The Dutch words stad and stede are (originally) different inflections of the same word.* Also note that to me the form stede sounds positively archaic, while the reduced form stee sounds merely old-fashioned. This is part of the widespread apocope of the de at the end of such words pretty much since Early Modern Dutch. Cf. sledeslee (sleigh), medemee (with), etc.

* Actually they still are. One city is a stad, two cities are twee steden. But the word stee (place, farm) has split off and the plural is steeën. In older texts the word stad is also often used to mean a more generic place.
How Danish of you. The Danes have effectively clipped off everything but the first syllable in a sentence.

Farm, farmyard doubling as town, city can also be found in the Norse word garðr. Current gard, gård only means farm, English yard means yard, while Russian gorod and -grad means city. When the Vikings came to Constantinople, the greatest and richest city in all of Europe, they called it Miklagard, big town or even big farm. The word mikill, big, has a remnant in Swedish mycket, and English much, but is otherwise retained in Icelandic.

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #103
Farm, farmyard doubling as town, city can also be found in the Norse word garðr. Current gard, gård only means farm, English yard means yard, while Russian gorod and -grad means city.

A gaarde in Dutch means something very similar to yard: an enclosed piece of ground planted with flowers, trees or other crops. However, it's really only still used in compounds, like boomgaarde (tree garden) and diergaarde (animal garden, i.e. zoo[ological garden]). The modern word for gaarde is tuin, which is etymologically the same word as town. Originally that meant the same thing in English, Dutch and German, namely a fenced-off place (like a courtyard). In Dutch the meaning shifted to that which is enclosed, in German the meaning shifted to that which encloses, and in English it expanded in scope before proceeding along the same lines as Dutch.

  • Macallan
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #104

Norwegian uses bygg(e(r)), building (build (builds/builder)) instead, as does Icelandic. Bo would be the equivalent of Wohn, by* a town or a city, which of course in Swedish as in German is stad (or simply -sta(n)) or Stadt. Norwegian sted and English stead instead means small settlement (in Norwegian it primarily means place, as it once did in English, and in Dutch stede I see). By comparison in Swedish it is by*  that means small settlement.

Might be a false friend. In german there is:
Stadt - town, city
Staette - place

  • jax
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #105
Most of these words supposedly go way back, to Proto-Germanic or even Proto-Indo-European.

So Proto-Germanic *stadiz which more speculatively is derived from Proto-Indo-European *stéh₂tis (the * in front of stadiz and stéh₂tis indicates that these words are linguistic guesswork).

  • Belfrager
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #106
Vikings debating it's the must boring thing in earth...
:lol:
A matter of attitude.

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #107
Might be a false friend. In german there is:
Stadt - town, city
Staette - place

Probably also goes back to Proto-Germanic inflections and/or umlaut.

So Proto-Germanic *stadiz which more speculatively is derived from Proto-Indo-European *stéh₂tis (the * in front of stadiz and stéh₂tis indicates that these words are linguistic guesswork).

Whoa, and there I thought you could only get this stuff handily summarized from paper. (Then again, it's Wiktionary...)

  • Macallan
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #108

Vikings debating it's the must boring thing in earth...
:lol:

I thought you guys would rather us northern barbarians to discuss armchair linguistics instead of - say - raiding Portugal :right:

  • jax
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #109
Whoa, and there I thought you could only get this stuff handily summarized from paper. (Then again, it's Wiktionary...)


In some city in the world I have misplaced my Proto-Indo-European dictionary, and it is massive. I haven't compared the Wiktionary version, but I did sanity check it against online etymology dictionaries, and it is plausible. E.g. Etymonline  said:
Quote
stead (n.)
Old English stede "place, position; standing, firmness, stability, fixity," from Proto-Germanic *stadiz (cognates: Old Saxon stedi, Old Norse staðr "place, spot; stop, pause; town," Swedish stad, Dutch stede "place," Old High German stat, German Stadt "town," Gothic staþs "place"), from PIE *steti-, suffixed form of root *sta- "to stand" (see stet). Related to stand.


That said, I am uncomfortable with a body of work that can neither be verified nor falsified, and which is completely based on the work of a few people based on the reverse application of linguistic "laws", and from that base build not just a vocabulary, but a fairly explicit grammar and just about everything a language has, except a corpus.

Even so, I don't think it is an impossible project, it could get a gradually higher precision and probability of being correct, just that as it can't be verified, *those *pesky *word *asterixes *won't *go *away.

  • Belfrager
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #110
raiding Portugal

I could tell you how so simply we stopped barbarian Viking raids, had I the patience for that. But I don't, maybe other time.
A matter of attitude.

  • Macallan
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #111

raiding Portugal

I could tell you how so simply we stopped barbarian Viking raids, had I the patience for that. But I don't, maybe other time.

:wine: :cheers:

Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #112
You pulled their passports.

  • jax
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #113
"We" were Moors at the time of the Vikings.


  • Belfrager
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #114
"We" were Moors at the time of the Vikings.

No, we weren't. Another fallacious map.

There are four kind of lies, lies, damned lies, statistics...and jax's maps.  :lol:
A matter of attitude.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #115
There are three kinds of people: Those who recognize contradictions and those who don't... You, sir, inhabit the third class -- those who believe what they believe because they believe it, regardless.

While Portugal may have escaped Moorish suzerainty, it didn't escape it's influence: Either you know your own history or you don't!

Why such anti-historical vehemence?
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • Belfrager
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #116
You, sir, inhabit the third class -- those who believe what they believe because they believe it, regardless.

That's not third class, it's first class, luxury... :)
While Portugal may have escaped Moorish suzerainty, it didn't escape it's influence: Either you know your own history or you don't!

Why such anti-historical vehemence?

About Portugal and Vikings: I'm immensely proud about our Moor's heritage. See? no Vikings at all...

Vikings are not even of secondary importance in building Europe. They are a simple curiosity, with no impact at all in culture, war, economics, politics or anything else you may want to consider. Tales about their voyages and explorations are simple anecdotes that may be a part of Saxon's imagination but with no correspondence with reality.
They were seen as small thieves that attacked defenseless small villages up into the rivers due to their rudimentary boats that could float in shallow waters.

You may like to see a movie with an Andalusian Moor that goes captive to the Viking's land (I don't remember the title). It shows well the difference of level between both.

A matter of attitude.

  • jax
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #117


About Portugal and Vikings: I'm immensely proud about our Moor's heritage. See? no Vikings at all...

Vikings are not even of secondary importance in building Europe. They are a simple curiosity, with no impact at all in culture, war, economics, politics or anything else you may want to consider. Tales about their voyages and explorations are simple anecdotes that may be a part of Saxon's imagination but with no correspondence with reality.

They were seen as small thieves that attacked defenseless small villages up into the rivers due to their rudimentary boats that could float in shallow waters.

You may like to see a movie with an Andalusian Moor that goes captive to the Viking's land (I don't remember the title). It shows well the difference of level between both.


13th Warrior, based on a novel by the Saxon author Michael Chrichton, in turn a re-telling of the Saxon epos Beowulf, with a mix-in of Ahmad ibn Fadlan (Antonio Banderas).

Saxons may not have ventured much down to Portugal until their descendants in recent times, but other Germanic tribes did, and conquered and kept the Iberian peninsula for centuries until they handed it over to the Moors.


  • Belfrager
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #118
Saxons may not have ventured much down to Portugal until their descendants in recent times, but other Germanic tribes did, and conquered and kept the Iberian peninsula for centuries until they handed it over to the Moors.

Almost correct. Other Germanic tribes did in fact but they resisted always to the Moors refuging themselves at the Northern areas of the Peninsula that Moors could never conquest. They were Christian Kingdoms therefore the "Re-Conquest" later launched by the Papacy.
That applies predominantly to the area that today is known as Spain.

As for Portugal, it's different. We never had Visigoths here, the population being predominantly from Iberian tribes such as Turdules and Lusitans. With the fall of the roman empire arrives a single germanic tribe, the Swebes, that established a prosperous kingdom and eventually merged with the Lusitan and Iberian elites and resulted in the political entity, prior to Portugal as an independent country, known as the Portucalensis County that soon started fighting North against the Christian Kingdom of Leon and to south against the Moors and defeated both.

We had a few Viking incursions, basically annoying and irritating since we were always entertained fighting simultaneously two immensely bigger enemies. The question was simply solved by marrying a Portuguese Princess with the King of the Vikings, Otão. And up to Denmark she went, where she turned a much beloved Queen by the Vikings and famous as mother of three of their Kings.

Now you all can say that you are the biggest alive specialist in your countries about Iberian History. :)
A matter of attitude.

  • jax
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #119

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #120
You want to see luxury cells, take a look at Indonesia. :P

Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #121
Take a look at an Afghanistan cell.

  • ersi
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #122
One must envy how cozy it is in Afghan prison. Here's Butyrka prison in Moscow for comparison.

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #123
Missed out the torture camp in a corner of Cuba as well.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • jax
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #124