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Topic: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland? (Read 65498 times)

  • jax
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What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
So what is happening in those barely populated areas linked to the North Atlantic ocean?

  • ersi
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #200

If you refer as "Germany" anything before the unification in 1871 it gets tricky. It is possible to claim a continuity from then to now (Imperial Germany, Weimar Republic, Nazi Germany, Federal Republic of Germany/German Democratic Republic, Re-Unified Germany), but harder to claim a continuity before that.

Yup, that's the other theory about Germany: Fundamental problems of self-identity :)

I happen to lean towards this theory. Germany is historically very splintered. The first major force was the Hanseatic League that in German lands covered only the Northern Germany and the Netherlands. Later Luther's Bible translation raised some linguistic sense of unity and Prussian Bismarck effected some political unity. Yet Austria remained a separate empire und eine kleine Anschluss meanwhile did not look so good. That's the problem.

  • Belfrager
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #201
An enormous military budget (necessary if you're going to have influence in the far corners of the world) and people like RJ, Belfrager and Krake who spend all their time telling us how much worse we are at running the world than their respective countries were when they did it.

How ungrateful we are...  :lol: :P

Anyway I'm not related with those northerner gentlemen in any possible way. If so different people says the same, it can only be true. :)
A matter of attitude.

Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #202
Bomb Portugal!


  • Belfrager
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #203
Bomb Portugal!

Worthless, you never did it, you never will do it. Sissies.
A matter of attitude.

  • mjmsprt40
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  • undocumented space alien
Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #204

Bomb Portugal!

Worthless, you never did it, you never will do it. Sissies.


Portugal was--- from our standpoint-- never worth the bother. It's a country known for fishing the Grand Banks as well as a country known for going to the bank to borrow. But Portugal hasn't been a credible power since the days when Portugal and Spain were trying to divide the world between them with the aid and assistance of the pope at that time.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #205
Portugal was--- from our standpoint-- never worth the bother. It's a country known for fishing the Grand Banks as well as a country known for going to the bank to borrow. But Portugal hasn't been a credible power since the days when Portugal and Spain were trying to divide the world between them with the aid and assistance of the pope at that time.


  • rjhowie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #206
The man in the pic wasn't Portuguese so the point is?
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #207
Mjm mentioned the pope, and that's my favorite pope. Who's yours?

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #208
The first major force was the Hanseatic League that in German lands covered only the Northern Germany and the Netherlands.

Note that its language, Low German, is a lot closer to Dutch than High German. Nowadays the differences appear a lot more immense.

  • ersi
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #209

The first major force was the Hanseatic League that in German lands covered only the Northern Germany and the Netherlands.

Note that its language, Low German, is a lot closer to Dutch than High German. Nowadays the differences appear a lot more immense.

Some would say that Dutch is not a different language, but rather yet another German-speaking country like Austria and (most of) Switzerland, adding to the splintered self-identity of Germans.

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #210
Some would say that Dutch is not a different language, but rather yet another German-speaking country like Austria and (most of) Switzerland, adding to the splintered self-identity of Germans.

Dutch is Low Franconian with a rather strong Ingvaeonic substrate. In my opinion it's only Limburgish that's properly part of the German dialect continuum,[1] although obviously Dutch is also the continuation of the continuum that extends across the North Sea (or used to before William the Conqueror, anyway). Of course, those silly nineteenth century nationalists tried to anachronistically claim Heinric van Veldeke as a Dutch or German author, whereas in a twelfth-century context such terminology is utterly meaningless.[2] But in support of that argument, in those days Willem II, Count of Holland, was also the king of Germany. I would counter that we've developed in rather separate directions ever since Philip the Good took control. Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention that Flanders has traditionally been a (Dutch speaking) part of France, not Germany. As per the Treaty of Verdun:



[1] Dutch has a few singular features with regard to e.g. umlaut because of it.
[2] It's interesting to note that Veldeke restricted his rhyme words to only those that would work across all German dialects. That's no small feat.

  • rjhowie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #211
Hhhm, jimbro, I don't have a favourite Pope.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Belfrager
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #212
William II of Holland (February 1227 - 28 January 1256) was a Count of Holland and Zeeland (1235-56). He was elected as German anti-king in 1247 and remained king until his death.

At the time, Flandres was where the best fabrics and tissues comes from. Very expensive.
Zeeland... long time I see no one using that name.

Those old maps are always a refreshing thing to look.
A matter of attitude.

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #213
And Brugge was still a prosperous port -- imagine that!

  • jax
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #214

Some would say that Dutch is not a different language, but rather yet another German-speaking country like Austria and (most of) Switzerland, adding to the splintered self-identity of Germans.


If you use a language-based continuity you would get into what German(ic) should be, including what Frenzie mentioned, even the English, the Franks, the Rus, and the Vandals if you cast the net wide enough.

Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #215


Quote
Harrogate is the happiest place to live in Britain, according to a survey by a property website.
The spa town topped the poll for the third year in a row in the Rightmove report, which asked 24,000 people how they feel about where they live.
Shrewsbury was ranked second, with Ipswich third and York and Chester completing the top five.
Inverness came highest in Scotland, in sixth, with seventh-placed Llandrindod Wells the top Welsh location.

For more, see this.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-33794154

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #216
If you use a language-based continuity you would get into what German(ic) should be, including what Frenzie mentioned, even the English, the Franks, the Rus, and the Vandals if you cast the net wide enough.

If you cast the net as wide as the so-called "dialects" of Chinese, I think we can probably include all of Indo-European. Which would also make it the most widely spoken language in the world. ;)

  • jax
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #217
That would take us out of Germanic languages and North Europe, which my examples partially were inside.

To define continuity based on a language, here German, before that language really was crystallised, is going to be difficult. Especially as language is fluid, the children may not speak the language of the parents, also many leading "Germans" did not speak German, but French (or before that presumably Latin). It would not be impossible, but there would be awkwardness with retroactively applying classifications. The German language was a foundation for the creation of Germany, but it was Germany that created German. Likewise Italian didn't exist before Italy was created, it's basically the Florentine dialect.

I am of course not saying that language doesn't matter, e.g. Latin was important both before and after the fall of the Western Roman Empire, or that the ancestors of modern German can't be discerned from other Germanic languages and dialects.

And sure, the early speakers of the Proto-Indo-European language certainly wrecked havoc as well. The hypothesis that they were Ukrainian easy riders subjugating the more civilised farmers nearby about 6000 years ago is getting some traction. Still educated guesswork though.

  • jax
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #218

  • jax
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #219
Syrians cross Norway's Arctic border on bicy[c]les

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More than 100 Syrian refugees have crossed the Arctic border into Norway from Russia on bicycles, exploiting a loophole in the country's border regulations.

[...] The Storskog border station -- just two hours drive from the Arctic City of Murmansk in Russia's far north -- is Norway's only legal border crossing with Russia.

According to border agreements, it is illegal either to cross the border on foot or to give someone without papers a lift, a problem Syrian refugees have sidestepped by using bicycles.

"It is not news to us that tourists cross the border on bicycles, but recently we've also started to see some asylum seekers coming by bicycle," Gøran Stenseth, one of the border officials, told the local Sør-Varanger Avis newspaper.

So far this year, 133 asylum seekers have entered Norway though Storskog on bicycles. According to local police, most of them are Syrian refugees.




The new angle on a tragic story apart, I suspect The Guardian is the more reliable source, and the number is "a couple" rather than 133 this year.

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"You can say that maybe about five to 20 people try it a month. There have been a couple of people who have tried by bicycle. The rest are being driven over in Russian cars. It's very easy for them to cross - they can just sit in a Russian car, and come into Norway. And it's legal."

According to Sør-Varanger Avis, a local newspaper, 133 asylum-seekers have used this method in 2015, most of whom are Syrians.

How this obscure border crossing came to be a magnet for Syrians is not yet clear. Pettersen said his colleagues perform only the most perfunctory interviews with refugees, before putting them on one of the twice-daily planes to the immigration police in Oslo.

  • Frenzie
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #220
Hm, that's funny.

  • ersi
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #221
@jax
Is the image at the actual border crossing?

(I saw the same story in the news this morning. The story does not mention visas. A bicycle is not enough to cross the border. You need a Schengen visa.)

  • jax
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #222
No, that's just a pretty picture purportedly from Kirkenes,  the nearest town.  The other article shows the actual border passing.

They are refugees and wouldn't need visa. Russia is not yet in the EU so Dublin wouldn't apply.  I think the not walking restriction is a formality, I don't think they would reject anyone for a traffic violation. I walked into Greece from Turkey, a border passing with the same restriction, they didn't stop me.

  • ersi
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #223

I walked into Greece from Turkey, a border passing with the same restriction, they didn't stop me.

You had to show your passport though? You cannot cross borders simply by saying you are a refugee, can you? I have a bunch of acquaintances who have crossed borders in the Balkans during troubled times and, as a minimum, they had to pay bribes. On other occasions, they were locked up for not having their papers in order.

  • ersi
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Re: What's going on in Scandinavia, North Atlantic, Baltic States and Scotland?
Reply #224
Remember the spy-snatching incident at the Estonian border with Russia?


Update 3: Eston Kohver has been placed under arrest by Moscow court. He is suspected of spying and has to sit 2 months until his case is investigated. In case of conviction for this crime, Russian law prescribes 10 to 20 years jail http://www.interfax.ru/russia/395367


Meanwhile, Kohver was convicted of spying and sentenced to 15 years in a lovely historical Russian city Pskov (recommended, if you are into exotic tourism).

Now Kohver has been exchanged for another Estonian secret service official Aleksei Dressen, convicted of spying and sentenced to 16 years by Estonian authorities. Dressen was spying for Russia, i.e. the charge against him was treason http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34369853

The guys have swapped countries now. Kohver is home. Dressen is where he longed to be. Estonian secret service accommodates lots of nice people. ("Lots of nice people" has been the slogan of the pro-integration campaign in Estonian media, led by Estonian ministry of internal affairs.)