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Topic: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest (Read 7639 times)

  • Frenzie
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The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Well, at least I'm not the only one who thinks so.

http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/firefox-suckfest.html
Quote from: Dedoimedo
Starting with Firefox 4, when Mozilla realized that being Chrome-like is more important than giving users what they want, it continues to this day. The once beautiful and fun browser is becoming more and more a clone of the Google product

Opera started down the same path already a few years back, and obviously took it to extremes by literally taking the Chromium code instead of wasting time removing features.

Quote from: Dedoimedo
The second item on the menu is the so-called Australis interface. I'm not going to link to any articles about it, search for yourself and read all about oligophrenia at its finest. Anyhow, the most obvious change is that tabs are now rounded. Hmm. Can you think of any other browser that offers rounded tabs? Yes. It's called Google Chrome. How original.

And somehow they've managed to make it look even worse than Chrome.

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Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #1
O'k, you've convinced me. I won't be going to change my 3.6.x to something "higher" - however I have a couple of 4.0+ installers (and even a 4.0 already installed - but then manually disabled).

  • j7n
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Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #2
ׂ
  • Last Edit: 2014-04-24, 05:35:25 by j7n

Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #3

Indeed, since Opera 10.5 / Carakan released in 2009, there have been few functional improvements.

What's the big deal with how the tabs look? Why not offer a setting for Windows theme, Chrome theme, Metro theme, and move on? Other software had such choices before.
Because then people will complain that it's too confusing for the "average user" and "bloated."

  • Frenzie
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Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #4
Indeed, since Opera 10.5 / Carakan released in 2009, there have been few functional improvements.

Although it does have some important modal dialog improvements (that is, it quit locking you out for stuff like stupid JS alert boxes or for the download dialog) and they finally allowed you to run UserJS on HTTPS.

DragonFly also became immensely more useful between how it used to be in 10.10 and how it has been since Opera 11.x.

What's the big deal with how the tabs look? Why not offer a setting for Windows theme, Chrome theme, Metro theme, and move on? Other software had such choices before. How do the new "rounded" tabs look like?

As did Opera. Here's a screenshot. The linked article calls it a new shape, but Thunderbird's had it for quite a while now--one of its worst features. :P

Because then people will complain that it's too confusing for the "average user" and "bloated."

I've never understood people who complain about a "bloated" GUI. Confusing or overwhelming I can see, but bloated seems to fall squarely in the performance department. For instance, Opera 15+ comes in at over 30MB and is slower, ergo its code is more bloated than Opera 12-.

  • j7n
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Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #5
ׂ
  • Last Edit: 2014-04-24, 05:34:54 by j7n

  • Frenzie
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Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #6
I haven't used Dragonfly before Opera 11. Isn't it developed and updated independently from the main product?

Development has ceased for about a year now of course, but that's correct. However, there've been API improvements and massive JS engine speed improvements that would make present-day DragonFly impossible on Opera 10.1x. You can get a vague impression from the changelog, although my earlier link might be more directly helpful. You can see that DF 1.1 will work on 11.6x and possibly earlier, but some features only work on 12. And 1.2 improvements like the style profiler in all likelihood only work in 12 too, but I don't recall.

Since Dragonfly is open-source, theoretically we could still improve this part of the browser even though Opera abandoned it. However, I'd say it's in quite a bit of a better state than 12.16 itself. (Which isn't too shabby itself, but the problem is that increasing the Opera version number hasn't unilaterally led to improvements since 10.11 while I believe it has in DragonFly.)

  • ersi
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Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #7

For example, IsoBuster offered a choice between Win2000 (my choice) and XP icons (like seen on the toolbar). People can pick either. No big deal.

Opera had a campaign of sorts at version 7.5 or so. Version 7 came with terribly overwhelming and confusing default interface. This was easily remedied by right-clicking and hiding unnecessary buttons, but the campaign offered downloadable skins and "setups" (toolbars and menus - like extensions these days) to make Opera's interface instantly look like IE, FF or something else. This was an absolutely brilliant way to configure it.  I think user base grew rapidly at that time. At least the forums membership exploded.

Configurability of the interface was always my favourite feature of Opera. Sad that they never knew how to capitalise on it properly and have now given it up altogether. For me the decline in the interface became evident when they introduced the totally unnecessary O button that was intentionally made different from all other buttons, hard to remove.

  • Frenzie
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Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #8
Opera had a campaign of sorts at version 7.5 or so. Version 7 came with terribly overwhelming and confusing default interface. This was easily remedied by right-clicking and hiding unnecessary buttons, but the campaign offered downloadable skins and "setups" (toolbars and menus - like extensions these days) to make Opera's interface instantly look like IE, FF or something else. This was an absolutely brilliant way to configure it.  I think user base grew rapidly at that time. At least the forums membership exploded.

This is the time when I started using Opera as my main browser. I'd been familiar with Opera since version 3.6, and had used it occasionally since version 5 (even as primary for a while with version 6), but it wasn't until one of the Opera 7 betas that they really won me over.

Configurability of the interface was always my favourite feature of Opera. Sad that they never knew how to capitalise on it properly and have now given it up altogether. For me the decline in the interface became evident when they introduced the totally unnecessary O button that was intentionally made different from all other buttons, hard to remove.

That zombie button has been annoying me since 10.50. You can disable or remove it all you want, but it will come back. But it won't, they say. Well, I like to toggle the menubar sometimes, sue me.

  • Macallan
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Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #9

Opera had a campaign of sorts at version 7.5 or so. Version 7 came with terribly overwhelming and confusing default interface. This was easily remedied by right-clicking and hiding unnecessary buttons, but the campaign offered downloadable skins and "setups" (toolbars and menus - like extensions these days) to make Opera's interface instantly look like IE, FF or something else. This was an absolutely brilliant way to configure it.  I think user base grew rapidly at that time. At least the forums membership exploded.

This is the time when I started using Opera as my main browser. I'd been familiar with Opera since version 3.6, and had used it occasionally since version 5 (even as primary for a while with version 6), but it wasn't until one of the Opera 7 betas that they really won me over.

IIRC 7.something was when the Mac version became usable ( as in, switched to OSX instead of being an OS9 app dressed up to look kinda-sorta like an OSX one ). I've been using Opera on Windows since 4.0 ( mostly at work, for digging up docs and such - the MDI interface won me over back then ) and the linux version on NetBSD since 6.0.
The BeOS and OS9 versions were odd - they had the side bar and such in a separate window, and at least the BeOS version had a bad habit of deadlocking and crashing.

  • Frenzie
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Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #10
I just found out about Sea Fox.
Quote
This extension will convert the Seamonkey browser to be similar to Firefox 3.x. It is not meant to be an exact duplicate of any specific version of Firefox, as I don't think any version was ever "perfect" to be worth exactly duplicating. This is for fans of Firefox who are dismayed with current Firefox UI direction. Because it disables and changes some features, people accustomed to SeaMonkey may not enjoy it.

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Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #11

  • Frenzie
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Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #12
That which used to be called Mozilla. I think it took Firefox at least until version 2 to catch up with it, and despite Firefox' original goal, SeaMonkey is now practically a light-weight alternative to Firefox itself.

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Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #13
Frans,

  • singulars don't lose "s" being "possessed" however the ending,

  • I like Ff 3.6:)


  • Frenzie
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Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #14

     
  • singulars don't lose "s" being "possessed" however the ending,

Usage varies.


     
  • I like Ff 3.6:)

And if we're nitpicking, it's abbreviated Fx. ;)

Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #15
and despite Firefox' original goal, SeaMonkey is now practically a light-weight alternative to Firefox itself.

Yeah, the irony. Seamonkey's been lighter than Firefox for a long time.

Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #16
I had not used Opera for a loooooong time.  Yesterday I downloaded the latest stable version and was immediately presented with a Chrome like experience.  Hm?  Not the Opera I remember.  There is minimal to no ability to change much of anything to fit individual preference.

I went to MyOpera to complain and was swiftly painted as a troll, as a party spoiler, something about arrogant fools that visit to rant.  Ha!  It made me remember so well how complaining about Opera on MyOpera was forbidden, as though I was telling someone their religion was off.

So I started asking where are the bookmarks.  No answer as of today.  I am using a stable release, not a beta.  Version:   19.0.1326.56 - Opera is up to date Update stream:   Stable System:   Windows 7 64-bit (WoW64).  In modern times I've not seen a browser with bookmarks.

Ok so I decide to move forward in checking out Opera.  I install Lastpass, my password manager of choice.  Off I go to check out one of my bank sites.  I remember that one of the main reasons I left Opera was its terrible handling of bank HTTPS sites.  I launch off to a site and even though LastPass fills in the username and password, the site says it is incorrect.  Hm?  Is something amiss?  Off to Firefox and try it and everything goes well.  Back to Opera.  I try several more times and then the bank site says enough.  I have attempted too many times and I am now locked out.  I can't believe that Opera is still, after all the years, having issues with a bank https site.

I sit here wondering what would make me come back to Opera and can't think of one darn thing.  Firefox has my bookmarks, it gives me a bookmarks toolbar that I can customize and never have bank site problems.

Back when I did use Opera what kept me tied to Opera was my commitment to the browser/ e-mail suite concept.  Then I started using firefox, installed thunderbird (with calendar), I added in the Opera bank site problem and said, ok enough of Opera. 

Opera started down the same path already a few years back, and obviously took it to extremes by literally taking the Chromium code instead of wasting time removing features.

Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #17
Is Seamonkey still being worked on?

Seamonkey's been lighter than Firefox for a long time.


  • ersi
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Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #18

Is Seamonkey still being worked on?

You can follow the project news http://www.seamonkey-project.org/news-atom

The rate of releases appears to roughly match the rate of Firefox releases, even though Seamonkey still keeps to the old version numbering. The Mozilla engine in Seamonkey is up-to-date. The head developer shows no signs of relenting.

Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #19
Just downloaded it and it still runs well!

Now I have Opera loaded up, SeaMonkey, firefox and chrome.  Starting to get into that confusion of which one do I like best?   I'm starting to consider Google Chrome to be something to be avoided because of Google snooping capacities.
  • Last Edit: 2014-01-29, 20:24:45 by urdrwho

  • Frenzie
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Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #20
Are you a Whovian, btw?

Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #21
Yep.

I have a fez and bow tow given to me by my son, a fellow who-vian.  For Christmas my son's girlfriend gave me a sonic screwdriver.  My son has a scarf, a screwdriver (plus other things I can't remember)  and would love to buy the long coat.  Trouble is the long trench coat is $$$$$$$$$.

I go back to the 70's when I was in my 20's. 

My son is a much, much bigger who-vian than I am.



Are you a Whovian, btw?


Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #22
Summer of 2009.  A friend is over at my apartment.  It must've been right after Opera 10 came out, because I was downloading the new version.  I start the installer, my friend happens to be watching, and it finishes installing about 1.5 seconds later.  The rendering of the first few pages I visit is also blazing-fast.  "Wow, that's incredible!  I'm going to install Opera as soon as I get home," my friend says.  Those were good days.  Quite a few of my friends have used Opera as a main browser over the years, and a few others have used it as a secondary browser.  But 2009 was a great time for Opera.  I'll agree that in terms of browser functionality, the innovation has been a lot slower since then.  Back in 2009, Opera had so many features that other browsers didn't have.  Now, a lot of browsers have caught up a lot of the ground.  There are still power-user features that are uniquely Opera (12), but for awhile there, Opera had a monopoly on big-ticket features like Speed Dial and Link, too.

Whether Opera 10 is my favorite version, I don't know.  Assuming it could render like Opera 12 and had today's Dragonfly, I probably wouldn't miss much from 12 (and having Opera Unite back would be nice).  But I don't use 10.x today.  I still have 11.x for one site I visit that works better with 11 than 12.  But I haven't used 10.x or earlier other than for nostalgia for a long time.

I didn't use Dragonfly much until 2013, so I can't say how it compares to 2009.  But I do like it as it is now.  If I had to choose just one web debugger, I'd probably have to go with Dragonfly.  It's unfortunate that it probably won't receive any more significant updates.  But at least for now I can keep using Dragonfly and know that the web applications I build will work with Opera 12.

Funny that you should mention Firefox, my secondary browser.  I just updated my Firefox from 3.6 to 24 ESR a month or so ago.  It's not as bad as I expected.  I guess they got some of the 4.0 issues sorted out.  Granted, I'm not a Firefox power user, so I may not be missing as much as others (and the Find issue that the blog author finds so annoying is how it works in Opera, so that won't bother me even if I do upgrade to 27 or whatever the latest version is).  But 3.6 was the high point for Firefox to me.  Back then, everyone was so enthusiastic about Firefox, and a new Firefox release was a big deal.  Then 4.0 came out, and, while it was a big deal, it had some issues at release.  Ever since then it's been piecemeal releases, and while there are still plenty of Firefox users, it's hard to get excited about a "major" release with 3 features, of which you're likely to care about 1 at most.  I miss the days when a new browser version meant real feature changes.  Only Microsoft is any good at that anymore.  Even Opera doesn't do significant releases these days.

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Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #23
But 3.6...
I still use it.
As a secondary browser.

  • Frenzie
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Re: The best versions of Opera and Firefox probably came out in 2009 at the latest
Reply #24
I guess they got some of the 4.0 issues sorted out.

They're still hiding the cookies manager behind custom history settings, among other issues. But I suppose they must've fixed the auto-update mechanism by now.