Because Otter is single-process browser, it's his general advantage over Vivaldi. Multiprocess browsers are for buggy plugins and to avoid memory leaks only, as I think. Reliable browser should remain single-processed, getting benefits on speed on memory usage. Before Otter, I didn't know that single-process architecture is available on WebKit engine. On my home machine with 1 GB RAM, Otter uses 2-3 times less memory than Opera 12.17. Bravo!

Minimalistic, system theme based interface is second advantage, as for me. Current Vivaldi alpha doesn't have Bookmarks item in his menu, but Otter has. For the first time, I'm ready to use classic bookmarks only, unless personal bars not yet implemented.

When "mouse gesture down over link" and "scroll tabs holding right button" gestures get implemented, I could try to migrate completely to Otter. Oh, also urlfiler.ini and user.css are needed.

As for now, I'm using Otter to surf on Vivaldi forum. Big thanks to Otter developers!

Fifth = failure, only Linux supported
Vivaldi = failure, chromium browser

I can't even believe someone on Vivaldi forum topic above wrote

If Vivaldi matures, we don't need Otter

hello ? - any - ANY chromium based browser is resource hog !
they use plugins, and every plugin acts as new Browser Process that eats
equal amount of Memory

what kind of idiot found to compare that shit with Otter which is extra lightweight

somehow people (read kids) don't even know what Browser is and what backend Engine is
its all same to them
well shit lets all buy 16 gigs of RAM and 16 core CPU and be happy .... pfff

And why do we need another closed-source Chrome clone?

Fifth = failure, only Linux supported
Vivaldi = failure, chromium browser

I can't even believe someone on Vivaldi forum topic above wrote

If Vivaldi matures, we don't need Otter

hello ? - any - ANY chromium based browser is resource hog !
they use plugins, and every plugin acts as new Browser Process that eats
equal amount of Memory

what kind of idiot found to compare that shit with Otter which is extra lightweight

somehow people (read kids) don't even know what Browser is and what backend Engine is
its all same to them
well shit lets all buy 16 gigs of RAM and 16 core CPU and be happy .... pfff

I am the one who wrote that.  I'm 61 and a somewhat technically advanced user.  Opera was my default browser beginning with ver. 6, when we were paying for the license.

The rest of that quote was, "If Otter matures, we don't need Vivaldi."

From strictly a user standpoint, what is important to me is function.  If the browser does the things I want and can be conformed to my work flow, I essentially DON'T CARE what's going on under the hood.  If I have my integrated email client included in a panel in the interface, my bookmarks bar that I can arrange vertically on the right, my vertical tabs, also on the right, and if I can switch quickly and smoothly from one element to the next, it concerns me not, whether it's consuming half a gig of RAM, or four gigs.  It's working.  If it has a feather-light footprint and does NONE of the above things, that's utterly irrelevant, because it does not serve my needs.

BOTH browsers aim to replace Opera 12.  I'm happy to see either one do it.  Whichever one does it, renders the other supernumerary as to my user needs.

I would caution against getting too partisan, too insular, too snobbish about browser inner workings, and remember that most people who are pissed about the loss of old Opera were mad because they lost that interface - not because they lost the inner workings.

Welcome to the forums, ayespy

...remember that most people who are pissed about the loss of old Opera were mad because they lost that interface - not because they lost the inner workings.

I completely concur. To me too the interface, particularly its configurability, was the most attractive feature of Opera. Now we have entered a race between Otter, Vivaldi, and possibly also Fifth, to get this back.

However, also open-source approach is important. Should the project fail for whatever reason, with open-source licence there's a chance that a next developer, anybody, will take over where the former left off. Now, good open-source software gets abandoned often enough without any hope of continuity, but at least there's a chance that someone will take over some day.

With corporate licence there's no such chance even in principle. The current Opera ASA has the resources to continue the development of their product, but they are not doing it, and they are not letting anyone else do it either. Even Vivaldi (Tetzchner) could not re-create something too closely resembling old Opera, if he wanted to.

I would caution against getting too partisan, too insular, too snobbish about browser inner workings, and remember that most people who are pissed about the loss of old Opera were mad because they lost that interface - not because they lost the inner workings.

That's also because Opera literally said it was just an under-the-hood change. It clearly was not. Because of that statement people expected them to come out with something more like Vivaldi than what they came out with.

I just have to facepalm to that guy...

if you don't care about what is happening to your machine
then use crappy chrome or any of its clones
they all accept plugins that makes YOUR user experience opera-like

heck its a browser, it works, so use it...
allow me to *facepalm*

want a snoobish attitude ?
here's one, I've been using Opera since v5, altho v7 grew best on me back in the days
also with attitude of yours alike, no wonder all software is going for unoptimized pile of garbage system

so much easier to buy gaming rig just to be able to surf the freaking internet
now allow me to *facepalm* again

That's also because Opera literally said it was just an under-the-hood change. It clearly was not. Because of that statement people expected them to come out with something more like Vivaldi than what they came out with.

I noticed that there were some early commentators who were skeptical already at the early announcement of a contract between Google and Opera, in conjunction with the major personnel overhaul. Back then, the users were kept in the dark about any possible change to the browser. Those commentators saw immediately (and, in hindsight, rightly) that Opera would turn into a sad Chrome clone, even before any announcement about the change of product was made.

Personally my disillusionment came only after the "under the hood" announcement, though still before I saw the desktop Chropera Beta. I saw what was about to come because I happened to update to Chropera Mobile first, which made my phone choke. After this I didn't even need to take a look at the desktop Chropera to know how hopelessly evil it was.

The commentators who made the correct predictions before this were truly far-sighted. Perhaps because they had been through a few disappointments of comparable nature and magnitude already

I'll just make a last reply here, and then leave you folks to your tea and biscuits.  It's pretty clear a significant share of commenters are living in a sort of alternate reality, receiving positive reinforcement from each other, and contemptuous of the outside world.  I fear I could not make myself at home, nor be accepted ultimately, any more than a mainstream pediatrician at an anti-vaxxer rally.

My rig is nothing like a gaming rig.  Any gamer worth his salt would laugh me out of town if I were to claim it was.  Still, it runs all browsers, sometimes several at a time, without running into hardware problems.  I did not claim or imply one should not care what his happening to his  machine.  I  merely made the point that, on the whole, users care about USE, rather than technical niceties.  The stated aim of both Otter and Vivaldi has been to restore the user experience classic Opera aficionados lost when Presto was abandoned.  I applaud that aim, because I think it's both valid and valuable.  Clearly, what PARTS of that user experience mattered to a person was a unique mix of traits for each user.  The fact that classic Opera was able to satisfy so many unique (and in some cases non-overlapping) needs made it the fifth-most-popular (in a market of dozens) browser in the world.

The thrust of my comment, as has been acknowledged in the past by Emdek, was that VISIBLE features matter.  Users care first about what they can see and touch in the experience, and second about matters like resource footprint and security.  Emdek has shown a reluctance to reveal any feature before it is "fully ready," and I think this reluctance, plus a shortage of available developer-hours has led to a project which, to a bystander, looks frustratingly slow in progress toward its stated goal.

Vivaldi, by contrast, has both more guys, and a different emphasis.  It's trying to show as much as it can, as fast as it can, without actually blowing up anyone's machine, and in less than a week attracted half a million users, and is likely pushing a million now.  Its forums and blogs are a hotbed of activity, with hundreds of new comments every day.  What does this demonstrate?  That users care about USE.  It does not prove that one browser is good and the other bad, that one is superior to the other, or that one project is more noble than the other.  It demonstrates that users care about USE.

One can endlessly debate the ethics and virtues of open source versus closed, crass commercialism vs technical finesse, and I have no position in these debates.  Literally, none.

But I will point out that there is no topic at the Vivaldi forums called "Vivaldi advantages over Otter," and nothing but admiration on that site for the aims and the efforts of the Otter project.  It would seem no one over there feels the need to convince themselves that their interest in the project they are flocking to needs to be defended.

To the degree one engages in an effort here to validate this project as BETTER than another, and seeks reinforcing feedback from other members within an undeniably small club, one will only succeed in adding blinders to one's blinders, and missing chances to attract a big enough user base to preserve project momentum toward ultimate success.  My advice was not to get too damn busy patting yourselves on the back.  Yes, you need to believe in what you are doing, in order to continue doing it.  No, defects in what someone more successful is doing, is not proof of your own virtue.  What will prove the virtue of the project will be its ultimate success.  The universe has signposts pointing toward success, if you will heed them.

I've preached long enough.  I'm out.  Just do me a favor and don't quote me out of context any more, as "proof" of how stupid users are, and to justify why you are too good for the crass and ignorant internet.

lol the ego on you
better shoot yourself and spare us melodrama of "use"

there's reason why people are bitching on every release why is something broken
on every instance of chrome & its clones that are "ready"

I'll just make a last reply here, and then leave you folks to your tea and biscuits.  It's pretty clear a significant share of commenters are living in a sort of alternate reality, receiving positive reinforcement from each other, and contemptuous of the outside world.  I fear I could not make myself at home, nor be accepted ultimately, any more than a mainstream pediatrician at an anti-vaxxer rally.

A rally of one, I guess? As far as I can see, there is one user that has replied to your posts in an aggressive way. I think that comments like "what kind of idiot found to compare that shit with Otter" are out of place in a forum. But I don't think that represents the attitude of the majority of the forum, in fact the rest of the users have replied to you in a totally civil way (and some of them agreeing with your view, e.g. ersi, "I completely concur") so I think generalizing and talking about a rally is unfair. Although I can perfectly understand that you posted in a bad mood after you have been called idiot, I think you should rethink your view of the rest of the posters.

I did not claim or imply one should not care what his happening to his  machine.  I  merely made the point that, on the whole, users care about USE, rather than technical niceties.  The stated aim of both Otter and Vivaldi has been to restore the user experience classic Opera aficionados lost when Presto was abandoned.

I agree. I'm a pretty technical user and open a huge lot of tabs, so I do care about things like single-process or RAM usage, but most users don't. And even in my case, those issues take a back seat to UI and functionality. I would be quite happy with a browser with all the functionality of Opera Presto even if it's hurdled by the Chrome engine, than a very lightweight browser with less functionality.

The thrust of my comment, as has been acknowledged in the past by Emdek, was that VISIBLE features matter.  Users care first about what they can see and touch in the experience, and second about matters like resource footprint and security.  Emdek has shown a reluctance to reveal any feature before it is "fully ready," and I think this reluctance, plus a shortage of available developer-hours has led to a project which, to a bystander, looks frustratingly slow in progress toward its stated goal.

Vivaldi, by contrast, has both more guys, and a different emphasis.  It's trying to show as much as it can, as fast as it can, without actually blowing up anyone's machine, and in less than a week attracted half a million users, and is likely pushing a million now.  Its forums and blogs are a hotbed of activity, with hundreds of new comments every day.  What does this demonstrate?  That users care about USE.  It does not prove that one browser is good and the other bad, that one is superior to the other, or that one project is more noble than the other.  It demonstrates that users care about USE.

I totally agree about visible features being the most important. But for the record, currently for my particular priorities, Otter is ahead of Vivaldi in visible features and functionality. It has more mouse gestures (including down over a link), it has the standard menu bar AND title bar (Vivaldi allows me to show a menu bar, but it's collapsed with the titlebar), it has per-site settings including proxy settings... that's stuff that I use, and especially the menu bar thing is very important for me personally. I understand that other people have different priorities and for them Vivaldi may be ahead in functionality, but that's very far from a universal truth.

Re the Vivaldi forums having much more activity than this one and the browser having more downloads, well, it's a browser made and endorsed by no less than the former Opera creator, with much more resources for marketing and getting the product known, and it had a thriving community even before the browser was released or even announced. So I don't think it's fair to say that the relative sizes of the communities or number of downloads are an indicator that users prefer Vivaldi to Otter.

But I will point out that there is no topic at the Vivaldi forums called "Vivaldi advantages over Otter," and nothing but admiration on that site for the aims and the efforts of the Otter project.  It would seem no one over there feels the need to convince themselves that their interest in the project they are flocking to needs to be defended.

Vivaldi is the larger project, with downloads in the hundreds of thousands, the support of Von Tetzchner, a company and a large development team, so it's not strange that people don't feel the need to motivate themselves. Otter was seen as in danger when Vivaldi was announced, probably some users thought that Emdek could abandon the project if he didn't have enough motivation, so it was important to make it clear to him that we need Otter! We need to stick together because we are the underdog.

To the degree one engages in an effort here to validate this project as BETTER than another, and seeks reinforcing feedback from other members within an undeniably small club, one will only succeed in adding blinders to one's blinders, and missing chances to attract a big enough user base to preserve project momentum toward ultimate success.  My advice was not to get too damn busy patting yourselves on the back.  Yes, you need to believe in what you are doing, in order to continue doing it.  No, defects in what someone more successful is doing, is not proof of your own virtue.  What will prove the virtue of the project will be its ultimate success.  The universe has signposts pointing toward success, if you will heed them.

I totally agree with that. However, note that the thread is not a back-patting fest, it contains self-criticism as well, as can be seen in the first page of the thread.

@Al-Khwarizmi:

I appreciate your civility.  Exley's attitude is certainly not unique here, though possibly in the minority.

For me, personally, I can't use Otter yet.  I've tried.  It simply doesn't contain any of the features I need daily.  When the project was first launched, I was cautiously optimistic it would render a viable result in some sort of reasonable time frame.  I'm already in my 60's, after all .  I've found its progress, as to items that make me able to adopt a browser, frustratingly slow - even slower than Chropera, which is also too slow.

Vivaldi was a breath of fresh air in that respect.  It had more of the features I truly use, at the jump, than Otter or Chropera.  I understand the loyalty of Otter's users to the project.  I had sort of hoped Emdek might lend his considerable talents to an effort in which I already saw more promise, because many hands make light work. I get why he declined.  But when I saw people here going out of their way to diss Vivaldi and pump up the glory of Otter, I grew a little concerned ("whistling past the graveyard" to boost one's confidence, you know?) that false confidence might hinder Otter's progress and rob us of a SECOND shot at an heir to Opera 12.  Still, I continued to watch silently, even though I had already uninstalled Otter from my box - along with Pale Moon and a couple of others.  Hope dies last, right?

When I was being actively ridiculed here for expressing the idea that either Otter or Vivaldi coming into its own would eclipse the other (it would in my book) I could not remain silent - not because I was being called stupid but because the FACT that users will neglect an unfinished project if a mature one meets their demands, was being called a stupid idea.  Emdek was right to say more visible features need to come to Otter.  That concern deserves more attention - not less.  So I spoke up.

I only replied here again because to fail to respond to your civil post seemed impolite.  I'm not trying to argue for a particular position.  In all sincerity, good luck to you, and to Otter.

@ayespy, which features are you missing the most?

@ayespy, which features are you missing the most?

Good of you to ask.  What I need for my daily workflow are side tabs, bookmarks bar I can place vertically on the right (preferably arrangeable any way I like, including bookmarks interspersed with hierarchical folders), the ability to organize bookmarks alphabetically with a click rather than dragging and, last but not least, a stout and capable email program that I can have open in a panel on the left.  This enables me to work left-to-right and back again, getting an assignment by email, clicking on the first tab necessary to begin work on it and referring back to the email as necessary while working, and, when done, sending my results back to the requester by email - and at no time during the entire process do I have to change from one program to another, or lose sight of any of the elements of the process.

In order to sort of fake this workflow in neuOpera, I had to install a shitty extension that enabled half-baked side tabs, and keep Opera+extension open in 3/4 of the window with mail accounts and list open in 1/4 of the window, overlapping, so I could switch back and forth, one to the other.

So those are the elements I miss most.  I don't use gestures, spatial navigation, hotkeys, chat, P2P or RSS client, don't download masses of anything, don't convert currency, don't listen to music or watch videos to speak of, don't do development or design, rarely save notes, don't upload files, don't game at all (at ALL), don't have a YouTube account, tweet, use any social media to speak of (outside of checking in with our grown kids far away on facebook occasionally) or do any of the other obscure and technical things classic Opera was so good for.  I just do the above.  In order to do it, I ran classic Opera with zero extensions or widgets.

@ayespy

The positioning of toolbars that you are missing from Opera is missing both in Otter and Vivaldi. I have included the message about this in Otter issuetracker several times, but for now at least the tabbar can be positioned anywhere. In Vivaldi no toolbar can be positioned this way, at least I cannot find how to do it.

As far as I can see, Notes are pretty much the only feature that Vivaldi has and Otter doesn't, whereas you don't even use this, yet you somehow think Vivaldi is ahead.

Specifically what features are missing in Otter, compared to Vivaldi, that you would like to see us to catch up with? For example for me this is Notes, and some form of userCSS switcher similar to Opera as much as possible. Both are present in Vivaldi, and Otter would do well to catch up with these to ensure beyond dispute that it's ahead in development.

It's a good idea to have old Opera, Otter and Vivaldi side by side on the machine to be able to compare their features in specific detail.

As far as I can see, Notes are pretty much the only feature that Vivaldi has and Otter doesn't, whereas you don't even use this, yet you somehow think Vivaldi is ahead.

Vivaldi's bookmarks panel/manager is superior. Otter currently shares Opera/Blink's lack of ability to e.g. select multiple bookmarks the way you expect.

It's a good idea to have old Opera, Otter and Vivaldi side by side on the machine to be able to compare their features in specific detail.

As I'm using Opera/Presto (slightly) less, I find my browsing to be spread across Otter, Opera/Blink, and Iceweasel. I might include Vivaldi on account of spatial navigation once they've worked out the quirks, but the GUI's utter lack of nativity is annoying to say the least.



Notice how Opera/Blink automatically adjusts the zoom level to your DPI setting, although given that you can set a default zoom level in Opera/Presto and Otter that doesn't matter much.* The important thing here is the menus and window decorations. Also Vivaldi reacts like some kind of sloth, presumably for the same reason.

On the one hand Vivaldi is quite early in its development. On the other hand, most of its GUI-related problems are part of fundamental design choices, much like in Opera/Blink. And choosing to have a GUI that's not only non-native (like Opera/Presto), but counter-native?** The program would have to be phenomenal for me to be willing to overcome such a hurdle. Winamp in the late '90s and Opera in the early 2000s are the only programs I ever came across which fit that bill, and Opera has always been near-native.

* Incidentally, that's lacking in Vivaldi.
** Not unlike Opera/Blink in a way, but Opera/Blink is still more native where it counts. As far as DPI goes, it's arguably more native than even Otter.

As far as I can see, Notes are pretty much the only feature that Vivaldi has and Otter doesn't, whereas you don't even use this, yet you somehow think Vivaldi is ahead.

Vivaldi's bookmarks panel/manager is superior. Otter currently shares Opera/Blink's lack of ability to e.g. select multiple bookmarks the way you expect.

Well, for me Vivaldi's multiprocessing and horrendous interface are such putoffs that I frankly avoid using it, even though I still have it installed in one of my machines. I haven't gotten around to their bookmarks yet.

As to Otter's bookmarks, I will be happy with nothing less than a perfect replica of old Opera's bookmarking. Admittedly it's nowhere near that yet. And I'd like cookie management also resemble bookmarking a lot, complete with drag&drop, multiple selections, Trash (blocked but recoverable cookies) etc. It would be awesome. I will write about it more thoroughly when I have had time to think it through properly.

It's a good idea to have old Opera, Otter and Vivaldi side by side on the machine to be able to compare their features in specific detail.

As I'm using Opera/Presto (slightly) less, I find my browsing to be spread across Otter, Opera/Blink, and Iceweasel. I might include Vivaldi on account of spatial navigation once they've worked out the quirks, but the GUI's utter lack of nativity is annoying to say the least.

I am only happy with old Opera's spatial navigation. I don't think any webkit will ever be able to replicate it, but I would be okay if Otter would be able to do the same as Elinks: Move spatially from link to link in the visible webspace. Webkit browsers annoyingly start their spatial navigation from the beginning of the page, even though I may be watching the middle or bottom.

Additionally, Opera is able to move along some HTML elements, such as titles. I have not seen a webkit browser doing this. Elinks does not do it either, but at least it moves along links very well.

And then I'd like to see a proper Duplicate Page - draw a duplicate straight from cache, no connecting to internet. Old Opera lost this ability at some point. For now only Elinks does it right.

Webkit browsers annoyingly start their spatial navigation from the beginning of the page, even though I may be watching the middle or bottom.

Yes, that's super annoying and it's exactly the kind of quirk I meant. Shift+Up is supposed to start at the bottom. Shift+Left and Shift+Right are supposed to start around the middle on their respective opposite ends. Escape is supposed to deselect. It doesn't seem to be able to spatially navigate in frames. Navigating over a hover menu (like "My Messages" above) doesn't trigger hover. That's all I was able to find wrong with it in probably less than a minute. But the fact that it's there with Opera's default keyboard combination -- for me that's pretty brilliant marketing. It seems to say "it's nowhere near done, but we'll fix it up", much like that mail panel that only says "coming soon."

@ayespy

The positioning of toolbars that you are missing from Opera is missing both in Otter and Vivaldi. I have included the message about this in Otter issuetracker several times, but for now at least the tabbar can be positioned anywhere. In Vivaldi no toolbar can be positioned this way, at least I cannot find how to do it.

As far as I can see, Notes are pretty much the only feature that Vivaldi has and Otter doesn't, whereas you don't even use this, yet you somehow think Vivaldi is ahead.

Specifically what features are missing in Otter, compared to Vivaldi, that you would like to see us to catch up with? For example for me this is Notes, and some form of userCSS switcher similar to Opera as much as possible. Both are present in Vivaldi, and Otter would do well to catch up with these to ensure beyond dispute that it's ahead in development.

It's a good idea to have old Opera, Otter and Vivaldi side by side on the machine to be able to compare their features in specific detail.

Odd.  I have tabbar positioned on right in Vivaldi, with visual tabs, and cannot find how to reposition it in Otter.  In Vivaldi, address bar can be set top or bottom, and you can resize address field and search box. You can zoom with a slider.  Cannot find such settings in Otter.  Cannot find a bookmarks bar in Otter.  Vivaldi's bookmark bar can be set top or bottom, and can show labels only (no favicons) if you wish.  I expect side placement and favicons only, momentarily.  All toolbars and panels in Vivaldi offer multiple positions in Settings, clearly and unambiguously.

You don't have speed dial yet (not a deal-breaker for me, but in Vivaldi any folder and multiple folders, with hierarchical folders, can be set as speed dial).  You don't have notes yet.  I barely use them but Vivaldi has them.  Can you save to PDF yet?  Can't find it.

Does Otter have a mail developer yet?  I noticed you were advertising for one.  Vivaldi's mail client is nearing completion.  A working version was accidentally released temporarily two weeks ago.

Native or non-native UI means little to me, so long as I can find and use things. 

Do you have tab stacking yet?  I don't use it much, but I have it.

I notice Otter has private mode (window or tab) - don't need it yet in Vivaldi, but expect it - and session management, which I don't use.

I notice a page I have to use every day works in every browser but Vivaldi and Otter.  It crashes Vivaldi and does nothing in Otter.  Hah.

Otter does not have copy-without-formatting, and I have installed that extension in Vivaldi.  Otter does not have extensions. 

Otter does not have address field completion.  It's not well-implemented in Vivaldi yet, but it is there.

So these are some of the things I notice.  Again, not to get in to a pissing contest, I am not against Otter.  Keep at it.  Win me over.  It's not impossible.

@ayespy, all these features are planned, although mail client will take more time...

Odd.  I have tabbar positioned on right in Vivaldi, with visual tabs, and cannot find how to reposition it in Otter.

You can drag it using toolbar handle when toolbars are unlocked, just like in native applications.

Can you save to PDF yet?  Can't find it.

Should be available as virtual device in printer dialog, might be platform dependent.

Otter does not have copy-without-formatting, and I have installed that extension in Vivaldi.  Otter does not have extensions.

We have such action (CopyPlainText).

Odd.  I have tabbar positioned on right in Vivaldi, with visual tabs, and cannot find how to reposition it in Otter.

In Otter, drag the tabbar from the visible thingy at extreme left.

Other toolbars cannot indeed be re-located in Otter. And I haven't found a way to do it in Vivaldi either, admittedly because I am not looking closely enough into Vivaldi.

You can zoom with a slider.  Cannot find such settings in Otter. 

Surely you can see the slider in Otter :S

Cannot find a bookmarks bar in Otter. 

Admittedly not there. Very much requested. The bookmarks section in general needs work to live up to expectations.

You don't have speed dial yet (not a deal-breaker for me, but in Vivaldi any folder and multiple folders, with hierarchical folders, can be set as speed dial). 

I prefer the original Opera's speed dial. No folders. Speed dial items up to the ninth must be accessible by Ctrl+number. And the whole thing should be possible to turn off, so the keybinds may be assigned to some other function.

But yeah, not there in Otter, again.

You don't have notes yet.  I barely use them but Vivaldi has them.  Can you save to PDF yet?  Can't find it.

Does Otter have a mail developer yet?  I noticed you were advertising for one.  Vivaldi's mail client is nearing completion.  A working version was accidentally released temporarily two weeks ago.

Well, good for Vivaldi. It's all planned for Otter too.

I think eventually Otter is bound to select a ready-made opensource mail app and weave it onto Otter as a module or extension.

Native or non-native UI means little to me, so long as I can find and use things. 

Interface consistency and customisability means a lot to me. I even want webpages to have the same fonts and colours that are best legible for me. This is why I use console apps a lot. Otter's interface harmonises very well with system themes.

Opera was able to style the entire internet uniformly (webpages in user mode) and it's a truly heavy loss to not have it anymore. No other graphical browser can do the same.

Do you have tab stacking yet?  I don't use it much, but I have it.

Pinning is there. Stacking and true detach are planned. When implemented, Otter will be the only browser in the world to have true detach. Opera had it until v.9.2.

I notice Otter has private mode (window or tab) - don't need it yet in Vivaldi, but expect it - and session management, which I don't use.

Session management in Otter is exactly as it used to be in Opera, so those who wanted it like this have it. In my opinion it's slightly defective (as was in Opera - "Open in current window" should be a sticky option) and I hope for improvement.

I notice a page I have to use every day works in every browser but Vivaldi and Otter.  It crashes Vivaldi and does nothing in Otter.  Hah.

Upstream issue? Those are the hardest bugs and may remain unattended.

Otter does not have copy-without-formatting, and I have installed that extension in Vivaldi.  Otter does not have extensions.

Extensions or at least scriptlets are under work right now for the next release. Copy without formatting is there, but only as a keybind (Ctrl+Shift+C), not as a menu item. Menu items are not configurable enough yet.

Otter does not have address field completion.  It's not well-implemented in Vivaldi yet, but it is there.

The underdeveloped address field is the only serious reason why I cannot advocate Otter widely yet. Once the address field is okay, the browser will be ready for average users.

But I will never be able to advocate Vivaldi. Multiprocess architecture bogs down people's computers. Everybody has Chrome for that anyway. Vivaldi will provide no alternative in this respect.

Ah.  The handle-dragging thing is something none of my native Windows apps do, so I didn't know to look for it.  Good to know.

As to relocating toolbars in Vivaldi, it's done in Settings.  There are radio buttons to chose this or that location, or the location (as in old Opera) known as "off."

I agree multiprocess is a bug, not a feature, but the more that can written into the root application (which appears to be Vivaldi's aim), the fewer processes will be spawned by extensions, etc.  I can live with a process for every tab (I have plenty of memory and CPU bandwidth), so long as that resource impact is optimized, and there aren't a ton of extension processes (because all needed functions were built-in).

I personally will recommend whatever browser seems to me to be most useful.  I am not prejudiced against closed source, multi-process, non-native UI or any of that.  I am agnostic as to form, so long as I get function.  I suspect this is the attitude of a large portion of the browser market, even when a particular user wants a unique set of functions.

OK - so I put tabs on the right.  They are oriented vertically so that one can't read the tab.  Is that right?  I prefer horizontal tabs, one on top of the other, at the right edge of the browser window.  Can Otter do this?

Yes, I found the slider.  It's faint on my screen, so I had missed it before.

OK - so I put tabs on the right.  They are oriented vertically so that one can't read the tab.  Is that right?  I prefer horizontal tabs, one on top of the other, at the right edge of the browser window.  Can Otter do this?

No, not at the moment. It's planned in the issue tracker, but not done yet: https://github.com/OtterBrowser/otter-browser/issues/110

I agree it's a rather important feature.

OK - so I put tabs on the right.  They are oriented vertically so that one can't read the tab.  Is that right?  I prefer horizontal tabs, one on top of the other, at the right edge of the browser window.  Can Otter do this?

No, not at the moment. It's planned in the issue tracker, but not done yet: https://github.com/OtterBrowser/otter-browser/issues/110

I agree it's a rather important feature.

In Opera at some point, post 8.5 I think, the tabbar became resizable by dragging. When the tabbar was dragged large enough, it displayed the thumbnails instead of webpage titles. When positioned left or right, the tabbar eventually (by v.11) only displayed the thumbnails.

You already have thumbnails, so perhaps it can be implemented. I see why people would miss it, when they have big horizontal screens. I tend to have square screens.

I recall all of this, of course, having used Opera from ver. 6 - but thumbnails were never mandatory.  Right up thru Opera 12 you can turn them off (right-click tabbar, customize, turn thumbnails off or on).

On Vivaldi with tabs on top or bottom you can still drag thumnails closed, but at sides they show by default (and then shrink as you add tabs past the vertical capacity of the UI) unless you pin the tab.  I expect the option to simply turn them off, to return globally.