Skip to main content

Topic: The government is the freaking dragon. (Read 7573 times)

  • OakdaleFTL
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
The government is the freaking dragon.
The FCC (the U.S. Federal Communications Commission) has approved -by a partisan majority of 3 to 2- the (presumably desirable) Net Neutrality rules (not yet released to the public...) to regulate ISPs -and, of course, other "players"- to ensure a free and open internet... (see here, for instance) by bureaucratic interference, based upon the rules meant to constrain the government-granted monopoly to AT&T in the late 30's.

I am eager to read the "final" 317 pages "agreed to" by this commission, and look forward to the court cases it prompts. (Not to mention, because I don't believe such will be forthcoming, the congressional backlash and remedy...sad to say). I'd like to read it because I might be able to deconstruct its purpose -- and argue against such.
(Yes, I think I know what it is...)

My main point here is to highlight the perennial question: What warrants and justifies government regulation? And when and why should such be accepted or promulgated, absent irremediable harms?

Put more simply: If it ain't broke, why "fix" it?

Other thoughts...?
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #50
AT&T has never been noted for being in a hurry to give customers the fastest speeds and the best service. Comcast is really bad too, though at least they do try to have faster speeds.

The internet companies compete with each other on the basis of speed, but the key to a fast connection is $$$.$$.

http://isp-review.toptenreviews.com

  • ensbb3
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #51
The internet companies compete with each other on the basis of speed, but the key to a fast connection is $$$.$$.


Pretty much all of them have been caught throttling while lying saying they aren't at this point. Especially with the mobile providers. They just want to charge you more if you don't like to use one of their partner sites.

  • mjmsprt40
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
  • undocumented space alien
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #52
Consider that in my neighborhood, it took until just this past year for AT&T to finally get U-Verse connected up. Before, if you were on AT&T you got land-line phone and a DSL Internet connection. For anything even resembling Comcast's  offering of phone, high-speed Internet and cable TV--- you had to go to Comcast. U-Verse made it here-- after many years of half-hearted promises-- last year.

My old place out in Carol Stream still doesn't have U-Verse service. DSL and land-line phone is the best that AT&T can do there as of this writing.

So--- tell me again how taking the government regulations off of AT&T will make it better. I keep forgetting.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

  • ensbb3
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #53
I will say based on what I've read so far news reporting has been very inaccurate. This thing is riddled with exemptions and clauses.

  • rjhowie
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #54
Now don't you fret OakdaleFTL. Once democracy becomes the norm you can relax.  8)
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #55
History shows quite clearly what inevitably follows democracy, RJ! (You'll not note -but I'd mention- that the American ideal of self-government is not synonymous with democracy...)

BTW: In case it was missed or has been forgotten, I'd link to this prediction here...(Weird and wonderful are the ways of legal reasoning! :) ) The more I read of the Rule the more I see our current Supreme Court going back this far, to try and untangle the various threads of this "garment" of technology...
--------------------------------
Since Sanguinemoon has seen fit to quote bits and pieces of "the Rules" I'll take occasional license to comment (before I've digested the entirety) on portions that trouble me...
First,
Quote
[...] the record provides substantial evidence that broadband providers have significant bargaining power in negotiations with edge providers and intermediaries that depend on access to their networks because of their ability to control the flow of traffic into and on their networks.
Another way to describe this significant bargaining power is in terms of a broadband provider's position as gatekeeper--that is, regardless of the competition in the local market for broadband Internet access, once a consumer chooses a broadband provider, that provider has a monopoly on access to the subscriber.
(my emphasis)
This is obvious nonsense: What is to prevent, say me, from subscribing to Xfinity, AT&T, Earthlink and my local (and good and responsive) Fire2Wire services? (Not to mention, various phone services...) This "monopoly" argument fails to account for the government's exercise of regulatory force in creating monopoly in the first place!
Efforts lacking such coercive means have always failed...
[The discussion below what I've quoted here shows the majority of FCC board members to be hopelessly behind the times...]

A brief example from my own experience:
I first got Internet access via an AOL promotional disk. It didn't work well with the hardware I had; indeed, it worked so poorly that I assumed I'd never connected. I used a later version -also from a promotional disk- to finally connect.
When I discovered that I'd been charged monthly fees for both versions for quite a while (I confess, I was often drunk back then... :) ) I discontinued the first, notified those providing the second of my intent to discontinue their service; and -in the time such discontinuation would take to be "effectuated"- bought new hardware and secured another ISP -- over the connectivity provided by AOL.
If an old sot like me, such as I was, can manage this, I'm pretty sure there is no monopoly.
  • Last Edit: 2015-03-18, 01:15:27 by OakdaleFTL
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • ensbb3
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #56
I first got Internet access via an AOL promotional disk.


:lol: Me too. Time metered connections. Seems silly now.

Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #57
If an old sot like me, such as I was, can manage this, I'm pretty sure there is no monopoly.

In many parts of the country there is, or close to one. The reason being in a whole lot of areas there is only one cable company and telephone company's infrastructure cannot support DSL. Broadband is completely different animal from AOL and other dial-up providers from the old days.
, that provider has a monopoly on access to the subscriber.

But look at the text you underlined. What they're getting at is that ISP has the ability to control the customer's access to online content, they can create a walled garden to premium content. Verizon can slow traffic to Netflix to force their customers to use their video streaming service, for example. This is a concern that you dismissed as "histrionics." Now the ISPs demand the ability to slow traffic to services that directly compete against their own to the point of unusability, or demand that the competing service pay more to maintain speed. The underlined text doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a competing broadband ISP in the area, although that might well be the case as mentioned above, but defacto monopoly access to some of the major things the subscriber does online, such as stream video.  In fact, at present most of these offerings from the ISPs are below the standard set by the edge providers and simply can't compete on level playing field.

  • OakdaleFTL
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #58
Seems silly now.

They screwed me royally... (Albeit, it was my fault. And the... No; let's not go there! :) )

Sorry to use your sensible comment to post this; but post I must! Here is a typical example of the FCC using its authority:
http://www.fcc.gov/document/order-and-consent-decree-verizon-wireless-pay-125-million

Those of you who won't read this decree (...no, the term is not my hyperbole) deserve what you get!
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • OakdaleFTL
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #59
In fact, at present most of these offerings from the ISPs are below the standard set by the edge providers and simply can't compete on level playing field.

"Meester! Fock my seester! Only two dollares!" Yes, I know what you mean, Sang. And I know what you'd prefer...

You want regulation, because you believe functionaries and bureaucrats are better, more rational, more moral than the rest of "us"...? (I don't think you consider yourself one of "us" -- but that's your problem, not mine.) Have you any evidence to support such a conclusion? :)

I have a trove to the contrary... (Let's start another thread, for that. OK?)
In fact, at present most of these offerings from the ISPs are below the standard set by the edge providers and simply can't compete on level playing field.

These "edge providers" are quite probably "free riders"...
(Not that their efforts might not prove beneficial.)

Does your "level playing field" mean that I have to let you use my agent and the venues we've bargained for, my road crew, amps and guitars? Do I have to teach you how to play on stage and in the studio? Have I to go beyond what even I know and teach you how to write hit songs?

Sang: What I don't understand is your blind (...it seems so, to me) faith in regulation by government authorities... Do you have a litany of their many successes?
I'll settle for two (that don't involve government enforced monopolies later eased into the free market...).
Okay. I'll actually settle for one.
We can take it from there.
  • Last Edit: 2015-03-18, 05:12:54 by OakdaleFTL
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #60
You want regulation, because you believe functionaries and bureaucrats are better, more rational, more moral than the rest of "us"...?


No. The concept of a common carrier dates back centuries and is common sense. Back then, a proto-GOP could argue that the ferryman should be able allow cargo from the firm that owns it to cross the river, but disallow cargo from others. I don't think it takes a genius to see how such arrangements would damage the flow of goods and services and diminish the economy of the region/nation effected. Think in terms of GDP. Today's ferrymen go by the names AT&T, Comcast, etc. Perhaps AT&T invents an business online web-application, but another company that doesn't happen to own the network builds a superior one. By having the ability to slow traffic to the competitor instead of being forced through competition to improve its own product, they're damaging the entire economy by defacto forcing other businesses to use an sub-par ordering system, network monitoring system, etc.

Histrionics you say? Look up the role Seibel had in the destruction of the original AT&T Wireless (at the time not actually owned by AT&T.) Customers left in droves out of frustration with the poor customer service and the internal errors the application created. I worked there and lived it. This does not come from a blog or website. The ISPs cannot be allowed to force B2B clients to use their own software if it's inferior by slowing traffic. Again, saw the results of bad web applications first hand. It's disastrous. The desktops are connected via intranet (ie ethernet cables), but data backup is cloud-based, which can be blocked or slowed to a crawl without net neutrality. I guess you can even use the ISP's cloud service before backups, but suppose there's a bug and its database software, causing it to loss millions of client records but there's no real choice since AT&T slows data to the competitor's server and justifies it with some excuse?

You see it's is not free as free beer, but free flow of information that must be maintained. I'm asking to think beyond Liberal/Conservative stereotypes and understand that the free flow of information is vital to the economy. I used streaming services previously because it's an easy example of ISPs screaming for the need control traffic to a service that's now their competitor, but it does much deeper - straight to the heart of America's business technological infrastructure.
  • Last Edit: 2015-03-18, 17:18:58 by Sanguinemoon

  • OakdaleFTL
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #61
Today's ferrymen go by the names AT&T, Comcast, etc. Perhaps AT&T invents an business online web-application, but another company that doesn't happen to own the network builds a superior one. By having the ability to slow traffic to the competitor instead of being forced through competition to improve its own product, they're damaging the entire economy by defacto forcing other businesses to use an sub-par ordering system, network monitoring system, etc.

(I'll come back to the rest of this... But, first:)

The King gave exclusive rights to ferrymen. And later to bridge-builders. You are no different: You'd ask functionaries to make your way in  the world easier than that of others. Can you explain why this is necessary?

It is now the 21st century. There is not much anyone can claim to make desirable the ascendency of "socialists".
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #62
DELETED, DELETED AND DELETED.

Another one of those pot and kettle things. :D
Done!
  • Last Edit: 2015-03-25, 21:26:39 by Jimbro3738

  • Belfrager
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #63
It is now the 21st century.

Times of disorientation.
All the ingredients for a major disaster are present and things are happening at an unstoppable speed.
That's why "governments" are heavily arming theirs (not ours) armed forces while systematically provoking populations.
The objective should be clear for everybody, a drastic reduction, better call it suppression, of human beings will happen.
A matter of attitude.

Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #64
Another one of those pot and kettle things

He's so plastered that Howie's posts are the epitome of conciseness and clarity by comparison.

  • Frenzie
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Administrator
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #65
This "monopoly" argument fails to account for the government's exercise of regulatory force in creating monopoly in the first place!

That, in turn, fails to account for the role of the industry in shaping government policy. There is now a higher concentration of lobbyists in Brussels than anywhere else in the EU, read a recent news item. Supposedly, only Washington has more.

  • mjmsprt40
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
  • undocumented space alien
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #66
Oakdale----- When I read---- or attempt to read--- some of the stuff you write, I wonder if they have air on the planet you come from. Your ability to write in the English language is---- well, a little remedial help would do you a world of good.

Sang's writing is at least legible. I might not agree with him on a number of issues, but at least he writes so you can read it.

So--- how about it? Writing like you actually thought about what you want to say before hitting the keyboard?
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

  • rjhowie
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #67
I would acknowledge Oakdale what you said about the system and democracy and indeed you raised this some time ago. A country being a republic does not of course mean it is automatically democratic as we all know. Perfectly right from you and nothing to argue on that matter of course. Maybe, if i am being generous, your founding fathers even though from an upper class background had thought of a principled republic re democracy and rights then unfortunately they would be revolving at speed on what the place has become instead.  :no:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #68
He's so plastered that Howie's posts are the epitome of conciseness and clarity by comparison.

I'm afraid you were right, this time. My apologies... (I've removed the post. Perhaps Jaybro will delete his quote of it?)
  • Last Edit: 2015-03-18, 21:07:09 by OakdaleFTL
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • OakdaleFTL
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #69
That, in turn, fails to account for the role of the industry in shaping government policy.

Not exactly... As Sang will vouchsafe, I fear regulatory capture much more than I fear actual over-regulation or anti-competitive violations.
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #70
I'm afraid you were right, this time. My apologies...

This is late, but apology accept. I've posted drunk myself before. It's a bad idea.

Now onto the topic. Is a truly bipartisan bill for net neutrality coming? This has the potential to eliminate the need the for broadband having a Title 2 classification.
As Sang will vouchsafe, I fear regulatory capture much more than I fear actual over-regulation or anti-competitive violations.

Yes, but in this case it's censorship by the telcos and stifling new drivers of economic growth that I fear.

  • Colonel Rebel
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #71
/Entered thread expecting the topic to be about the Welsh Gov't

/Left thread disappointed.

:devil:


  • OakdaleFTL
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #72
Entered thread expecting the topic to be about the Welsh Gov't
What in the world led you to think I'd start a thread about Welsh government?
(I do have a grudging respect and admiration for Dylan Thomas' poetry, and voice... That's pretty much my entire connection to Wales. Except for a wonderful cream stout whose name I can't spell! :) )
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • jax
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #73
If somebody for reasons unknown should  search* for "the freaking dragon" this thread will crop up third after two games.



* anonymous Google

  • OakdaleFTL
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: The government is the freaking dragon.
Reply #74
Told ya so!
Quote
FCC Commissioner Ajit Pai warned consumers that free mobile video streaming might be found in violation of the agency's new rules and that a national broadband tax could soon pop up on consumers' Internet bills.
Net Neutrality... Sure.
  • Last Edit: 2016-03-09, 18:28:30 by OakdaleFTL
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman