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Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to own, carry, & use Firearms to defend their own lives, & the lives of their family & friends?

  • Absolutely Yes!
  • I thinks so.
  • I don't think so.
  • Definitely No!
  • My name isn't String, so let me have a icy cold beer so I can ponder the options...

Topic: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms? (Read 95622 times)

Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution states:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Do you know the history behind those words?

Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to own, carry, & use Firearms to defend their own lives, & the lives of their family & friends?

Was the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution created to just protect a Citizen's right to target shoot & hunt, or was it created so that all Citizens could defend their Right to be free from a Tyrannical & Abusive Government --- along with having the ability to target/sport shoot & hunt as simply an added bonus -- merely a by product?

Can Governments legislate 'Gun Control' effective enough to completely protect their Citizens from deranged shooters & criminals, hell bent on killing the innocent & disobeying all law?

If not, do Ordinary Citizens have a 'Natural Right' to self-defend -- to protect their own lives, & the lives of their loved ones?

Will American Citizens, or any citizens of any country for that matter,  be safer & better off if only the Government & Law Enforcement had Firearms? Does recent History (within the past 100 years or so) show this to be fact?

What do you think, & most importantly ----   why?

This thread was created as a continuation of a thread in the old MyOpera Forum, which will be closing March 1st., 2014

  • Last Edit: 2014-12-15, 06:38:42 by SmileyFaze

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1225


Sounds like these lil hoplophobic cretins,...

Oh, so when all rational argument fails, gun proponents adopt the attitude of gay marriage proponents, and the topic becomes how everybody is homophobic/hoplophobic. That's a cute diplomatic turn and really helps people to genuinely understand your point of view, right?



Nahhh....I just don't care if you understand my point of view or not.....I have guns, will always have guns, my friends & family have guns, always will, & we all to the man/woman will never allow any government take them....we would rather die protecting our Freedoms, our Constitutional Rights ....so, not under any pretext....there is no chance or possibility for compromise in any form. Period.

Clear enough ersi, or do you want to join the many hundreds of thousands that will surly fall tryin' to take our guns away? 


  • ersi
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1226



Sounds like these lil hoplophobic cretins,...

Oh, so when all rational argument fails, gun proponents adopt the attitude of gay marriage proponents, and the topic becomes how everybody is homophobic/hoplophobic. That's a cute diplomatic turn and really helps people to genuinely understand your point of view, right?



Nahhh....I just don't care if you understand my point of view or not.....I have guns, ...

I see. You were not making a rational argument to begin with. Good to know.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1227
Merry Christmas Smiley!

  • Jochie
  • [*][*]
Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1228
We have reached a major milestone. Gun deaths and motor vehicle deaths in America have converged. We now manage to kill as many with guns as get killed by motor vehicle accidents.

That just shows, that we are really exceptional.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/17/guns-are-now-killing-as-many-people-as-cars-in-the-u-s/

  • OakdaleFTL
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1229
Let's repeal the seat-belt laws and go back to cars like we used to drive in the '50s! (Seriously, Jochie, do you ever read the articles you link to...?) :(

If gun violence is a "public health" problem, so is voting for Democrat candidates... (You only need the "right" people at the CDC to push the "right" social-science agenda! Consider what the next 16 years might be like, if your view is accepted.) The Southern Poverty Law Center view is not one a sane person should adopt. That "red-headed stepchild" needs to be beaten, and often!
(Even the ACLU gets it right more often...)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love this sort of quote:
Quote
[My emphasis...] The lack of funding for gun research is well-documented. In the mid-'90s, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) began exploratory gun research to documented the risks associated with having a gun in the home. After several studies backed by CDC money were published in prestigious medical journals, the gun lobby made the argument that federal dollars were going to support gun control. The resulting political pressure culminated in the 1996 Dickey Amendment, which has effectively forbidden the CDC from funding research on guns.
(source)
"To documented the risks..."? Which is at fault: Their grammar or their objectivity?
----------------------------------------------
Further reading, for those who don't follow links... :) (The first few paragraphs are important.)
  • Last Edit: 2015-12-18, 10:02:59 by OakdaleFTL
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1230

We have reached a major milestone. Gun deaths and motor vehicle deaths in America have converged.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/17/guns-are-now-killing-as-many-people-as-cars-in-the-u-s/



At first glance, one might think that ...... OMG, Americans are killing each other with firearms at alarming rates  .. :o..  they're out of control, & have now risen so high that they now equal the astronomical Motor Vehicle Death Rate!    :insane:

Ohhh, the humanities!  :insane: 




Actually, the opposite is true as noted below by the CDC.





Read this article Jochie brilliantly cited ..... especially noting the last paragraph ..... which I will highlight for clarity:

Source:  Jochie's link of The Washington Post
Quote
For the first time in more than  60 years, firearms and automobiles are killing Americans at an identical rate, according to new mortality data released this month by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). In 2014, the age-adjusted death rate for both firearms (including homicides, suicides and accidental deaths) and motor vehicle events (car crashes, collisions between cars and pedestrians, etc) stood at 10.3 deaths per 100,000 people.

The convergence of the trend lines above is driven primarily by a sharp drop in the rate of motor vehicle fatalities since 1950. In the late 1960s, for instance, there were well over 25 motor vehicle deaths for every 100,000 people in the United States. Since then, that rate has fallen by more than half.

Over the same period, gun deaths rose, but by a considerably smaller amount. Gun homicide rates have actually fallen in recent years , but those gains have been offset by rising gun suicide rates. Today, suicides account for roughly two out of every three gun deaths........


Two out of Three firearm deaths aren't committed by bad guys with guns, terrorists, mass murdering sickos, or gun totin' rednecks as the gun grabbin' Left want us to believe, they are actually being committed largly by sick, sorry, meaningless wastes of space that prefer to use a gun rather dying a slow, scary death by jumpin' off a bridge or tall building ..splat.. , slittin' their own wrists, or hangin' themselves in a small closet.

"Today, suicides account for roughly two out of every three gun deaths."

Victimless Crimes........

Quote
A victimless crime is a term used to refer to actions that have been made illegal but which do not directly violate or threaten the rights of any other individual. It often involves consensual acts, or solitary acts in which no other person is involved.


As far as I'm concerned, anyone that commits suicide, regardless the choice or method,  is actually doing society a favor by removing their sick, sorry, meaningless, selves from the roles of the unproductive living!

Good riddance!  
  • Last Edit: 2015-12-19, 09:43:11 by SmileyFaze

  • mjmsprt40
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Global Moderator
  • undocumented space alien
Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1231
It is a lot harder to die in an auto accident than it used to be. Cars are a lot safer today.

Seat belt use is "by law" in most if not all states. Collapsible steering columns became law in the late 1960s-- before then, cars were built with a steel shaft that ran from the steering gearbox right up to the wheel in your hands, in the event of a head-on collision this shaft would come in through your chest and exit your back, making survival unlikely. The steering wheel itself contained a number of sharp items that, even if you didn't get harpooned by the shaft, made getting into an accident likely to produce injuries.

No padding on the steel dashboard--- vinyl-covered padded dashboards came in about the same time as the collapsible steering column did. No air-bags. Air-bags came in during the Reagan administration, before then nope.

The combination of the three-point seatbelt and air-bags cut the death rate remarkably. Before then--- if you were "riding shotgun" there was a good chance you'd go through the windshield in the event of an accident, serious injury or death would be your lot.

You can still get killed in an accident--- but it is harder to do today than it was then. So--- auto-accident death rates have dropped. I remember as a young man reading of automobile-accident death rates PER YEAR that rivaled the number of service-men killed during the entire Vietnam war--- now it's down to 10,000 or less according to the stats posted here. Remarkable.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

  • Belfrager
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1232
If in America I would use the pistols frontwards (or is it backwards?), so I could draw with cross hands...  8)
Like the bad ones... Lee Van Cleef style. :)
A matter of attitude.

  • rjhowie
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1233
Now he was an expert!
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1234
[...] I left Primary School for senior school at 11, I put away childish things [...]
Your proficiency at English composition and spelling indicate that you were 7 or 8 when you left, and none too bright then!
I understand why you resent Smiley's support of the IRA: You and your kin tried to kill 'em, and damned near did!
It wasn't for want of trying.

"See Spot run!" "See Scot fum..." :)

Smiley is sometimes outside the bounds of decency. But I've not met him; and, I doubt if I did, he'd be offensive. (He knows Americans have the right to own and bear arms! :) Of course, that's nonsense: I doubt he's ever brow-beaten anyone; what need would he have?) If he were, I'd deal with him directly. And he'd understand that.
You, Howie, would not: You're "privileged" somehow. Would you care to explain that "how"? :)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • OakdaleFTL
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1235
mjm, I'm glad to see you posting again. I've missed you...

What Howie always misses is how things are getting better here, and worse there... (I wish that weren't so, too. At least so far as the comparison would make sense. I wish his country well; and I, of course, want mine to do well.) I've never wanted others to fare less well. (Unlike a certain Scot I might mention... :) ) But some people simply can't get by, without vilification and consternation.
He's a vile person -- on the internet. (I doubt he is, in real life... He'd have been dead a long time ago, else-wise!)

But -I wonder, mjm- do you want to talk to the likes of me? (I can't be other than what I am, Mike.) You bring a perspective to most topics that has mostly to do with evidence -- a bold move!
Neither you nor I are Einsteins!
When will the others come to the same self-realization? :)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • rjhowie
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1236
Things have improved, eh?

When the police stop getting stuff off the Pentagon to act like soldiers the almost daily, kill unarmed with several shots, mass killings to the level of almost one a day, the massive numbers in jail change, stop opening bases and cause wars then I will fully agree with you. Gun mad is an understatement and almost like national immaturity (with apologies to the real children). I reckon I don't really need to show the ridiculous falling short of things you prove it!  8) :o
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1237
Citizens, ordinary citizens need to take responsibility for their own defense & protection.

Lawmakers in Washington can write all the fancy 'feel good' gun laws, but they can't do a blessed thing when danger is at your doorstep, or climbing into your window, or opening your car door armed.

Those laws are meaningless because criminals simply don't obey laws.

Next time you're confronted in a dark place by a violent criminal, just ask the criminal what they think about firearm laws.

The police would be more than happy to intercede in your behalf when your or your family are in real danger, but unless you're having them over for a BBQ, when your life is in peril, a good cop is usually just about 20 minutes away.

So, I'll say it again ..... ordinary citizens need to take responsibility for their own defense & protection because protecting & defending their own lives is a right given them by an authority much higher than any person or government.

That said:

Quote

Despite a decades-long smear campaign that has been ratcheted up to hysteria in recent months, new polls show that Americans recognize NRA's positive influence on the country, and that the public is less likely than ever to support a ban on popular semi-automatic firearms.

A Rasmussen poll conducted November 30-December 1, asked individuals, "[t]he NRA supports gun policies that make all Americans safer. Do you strongly agree, somewhat agree, somewhat disagree or strongly disagree with this statement?" 61-percent of respondents stated that they agreed with the statement, with over a third of all respondents answering that they strongly agreed.

These numbers illustrate that a majority of Americans see through media depictions of NRA, to our work on gun policies that empower individuals to provide for the defense of themselves, families, and communities, along with our programs that educate the public on the safe handling and use of firearms............
Continued





In the end:


"We should not forget that the spark which ignited the American Revolution was caused by the British attempt to confiscate the firearms of the colonists."

We should count ourselves blessed for how that eventually turned out, that we live
in the land of the free & the home of the brave, & we answer to no foreign power, nor care what they think or say!










  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1238
Two things, Smiley:
First, I am one of those few who don't need a fire-arm to protect me and mine... (You can believe it or not. But I don't like loud noises... Except when I'm playing my guitar! Then, I'd understand -- if someone shot me!)
Second, the "spark" that ignited the American Revolution was well-described by James Otis, in more than one court case: The phrase "No taxation without representation..." was one of his. But, more importantly, he early-on understood the importance of repealing the Writs of Assistance.

There's an analogous argument to made, against the All Writs Act, now being used to make Apple kow-tow to the FBI...
Note: I don't want foreign or domestic terrorists to skate under the radar. But I also don't want our surveillance-state (...we're becoming much like the Brits...) to conscript our most successful companies into a "war" that our own government has refused to fight...
Please stop being stupid, U.S. Gov.! :(
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1239
I am one of those few who don't need a fire-arm to protect me and mine...


I, probably contrary to common belief, know quite a few that feel the same way as you.......At least you know that if you did, you have that option available because the Second Amendment guarantees your right won't be infringed upon.

Whether or not the quote "We should not forget that the spark which ignited the American Revolution was caused by the British attempt to confiscate the firearms of the colonists."  was correctly attributable to Patrick Henry, the battles of Lexington & Concord got things rolling, & one of the main British objectives was to seize arms or powder stored there by the colonists, so they couldn't be used against them. 
  • Last Edit: 2016-03-13, 09:09:00 by SmileyFaze

  • OakdaleFTL
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1240
At least you know that if you did, you have that option available because the Second Amendment guarantees your right won't be infringed upon.
Nah. I live in California... Our local Sheriff is a staunch supporter of the 2nd Amendment.
But many localities hereabouts offer much less of that "guarantee"; and the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals is based here... Need I say more?
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1241

At least you know that if you did, you have that option available because the Second Amendment guarantees your right won't be infringed upon.
Nah. I live in California... Our local Sheriff is a staunch supporter of the 2nd Amendment.
But many localities hereabouts offer much less of that "guarantee"; and the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals is based here... Need I say more?


I'd put my full faith in the Constitution if faced with a trip into the 9th Circuit......rather that than them having someone I can't hear moaning a eulogy over my capped tail because I was unarmed (which would never happen 'cause I have a special issue CCW Permit recognized everywhere in the USA valid until 2025.....even California).  

The NRA has a lot of ace lawyers at their call on the Left Coast, & they'd sharpen their canines with an opportunity to go pro bono all over their collective 9th circuit asses!   

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1242

  • OakdaleFTL
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1243
I'd put my full faith in the Constitution if faced with a trip into the 9th Circuit...rather that than them having someone I can't hear moaning a eulogy over my capped tail because I was unarmed (which would never happen 'cause I have a special issue CCW Permit recognized everywhere in the USA valid until 2025.....even California).
Understand, Smiley, your case is special; I understand that, and I'm not a-gin' it...
But I'd be a fool not to rely on my good local sheriff -- rather than some pro bono lawyers. (I've never applied for a concealed carry permit; but I'm reasonably certain that if I did in this jurisdiction, I'd be granted the "privilege"...)
I truly believe in the principle of subsidiarity. And -as much as I support and would defend the constitution- I don't think I'd rely on it to reciprocate: Local communities, friends and neighbors (...okay, enemies and neighbors, too! :) ) are who I'd trust to do the same, support and defend the constitution.
If we won't or can't defend our rights, that wonderful document ain't worth a damn!
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1244
Agreed, but it's unfortunate that Smiley evidently lives in a neighborhood like the Hunger Games arena,  expecting to be forced to defend himself.
"What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter."
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1245
..... unfortunate that Smiley evidently lives in a neighborhood like the Hunger Games arena,  expecting to be forced to defend himself.

Do you somehow suggest that I have to have some sort of "Need" in order to own my firearms? 

Nothing could be more distant from the truth.

"Need" has nothing to do with Our Second Amendment or Our Natural Right to Self-Defense.

I don't have any special "Need" to own firearms, I will & do because it is my Right to.....period.

You don't own life insurance because you have an impending expectation of death.

You don't carry a spare tire in your trunk because you believe you're about to have a flat.

You don't own a fire extinguisher because you expect your home to catch fire momentarily.

You don't have life preservers on your boat because you expect to drown any time soon.

You don't own firearms because you're expecting armed criminals  to crash through your front door or you child's bedroom window.

You may chose to have these items as a precaution........to be prepared in the event of needing.....if ever a remedy becomes necessary.

If you choose not to exercise your Right to Keep & Bear Arms, then go in peace, I won't attempt to force a firearm on you.

But, nowhere in the Second Amendment does it say you or I have to exhibit some sort of impending "need"  in order to keep & bear arms.

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.


     

  • string
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
  • Forum Staff
Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1246
Actually, SF, that amendment explicitly defines the need, namely "being necessary to the security of a free state."

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1247
Actually, SF, that amendment explicitly defines the need, namely "being necessary to the security of a free state."

That's not a "Need" for keeping or bearing arms.

The Second Amendment expresses absolutely no requirement of "need" for firearms. 

The "need" you point to....via the "necessary"....that need is expressing a "need" for Militias, as heatedly debated & written about during the drafting of the Constitution by the Founding Fathers, not to be controlled or tightly regulated by political governments, but controlled completely by the people in their defense against tyranny.  Historical documents attest to this in great detail. The Founding Fathers, & the framers of the Constitution, did not want the People to be ruled by a strong central government, but that the government be totally responsible to the will of the people. They were breaking away from tyrannical rule, they weren't about to replace it with another.

The Second Amendment makes it abundantly clear that Government shall not infringe upon the Right of the people to keep & bear arms.

The Second Amendment states plainly that the right to keep and bear arms "shall not be infringed."

The "need" you point to....via the "necessary"....that need is expressing a need for Militias not firearms.

We've been down this road  a thousand   numerous times, & the meaning of the Second Amendment has been well documented & explained throughout this thread.

The proofs I presented, & their meanings have not changed, & will not change because this is merely a later date in time.

The Supreme Court, & the lower courts, along with a host of leading Constitutional scholars,  have rendered what the Second Amendment does & does not say/mean, as does the plethora of historical documents detail the obvious intentions of our Founding Fathers, & the framers of our Constitution in the Second Amendment's creation. 
The Federalist Papers might be, as I stated way back, might be a good starting point of clarifying reference pertaining to "intentions". Try here & maybe here too. Have fun .....



  • Last Edit: 2016-04-19, 02:16:24 by SmileyFaze

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1248
Do you somehow suggest that I have to have some sort of "Need" in order to own my firearms? (and the rest of the ranting canned response)
I merely noted that you seemed to expect the situation to arise, but nowhere said the word "need."  Like Howie, you're being a bit of drama queen. You do you guys have folder containing canned, overly dramatic responses that don't have much to do with what the poster you're "responding" to said?

In fact, I do get it. You were crudely attempting to springboard into a "need" to have the second amendment argument. Perhaps if I was born yesterday, I would have fallen for it.
"What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter."
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1249
As far as I'm concerned, anyone that commits suicide, regardless the choice or method,  is actually doing society a favor by removing their sick, sorry, meaningless, selves from the roles of the unproductive living!

Good riddance!
That would include my sad son, you sorry asshole.