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Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to own, carry, & use Firearms to defend their own lives, & the lives of their family & friends?

  • Absolutely Yes!
  • I thinks so.
  • I don't think so.
  • Definitely No!
  • My name isn't String, so let me have a icy cold beer so I can ponder the options...

Topic: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms? (Read 271669 times)

Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution states:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Do you know the history behind those words?

Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to own, carry, & use Firearms to defend their own lives, & the lives of their family & friends?

Was the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution created to just protect a Citizen's right to target shoot & hunt, or was it created so that all Citizens could defend their Right to be free from a Tyrannical & Abusive Government --- along with having the ability to target/sport shoot & hunt as simply an added bonus -- merely a by product?

Can Governments legislate 'Gun Control' effective enough to completely protect their Citizens from deranged shooters & criminals, hell bent on killing the innocent & disobeying all law?

If not, do Ordinary Citizens have a 'Natural Right' to self-defend -- to protect their own lives, & the lives of their loved ones?

Will American Citizens, or any citizens of any country for that matter,  be safer & better off if only the Government & Law Enforcement had Firearms? Does recent History (within the past 100 years or so) show this to be fact?

What do you think, & most importantly ----   why?

This thread was created as a continuation of a thread in the old MyOpera Forum, which will be closing March 1st., 2014

  • Last Edit: 2014-12-15, 06:38:42 by SmileyFaze

  • ensbb3
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1475
What struck me most on American TV was all of the ads for medicine,
Oh hell yeah. Pharmaceutical commercials shouldn't be a thing.

"Ask your Dr. if <drug> is right for you!" IT WILL FIX THAT PROBLEM YOU NOW THINK YOU HAVE.
**also you'll shit yourself, bleed from the penis and probably have a heart attack or kidney failure in 5 years.

Even more sad is that doctors seem to prescribe it based on pretty much the same information. 

  • Frenzie
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  • Administrator
Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1476
Over here (Benelux, Germany) advertising prescription drugs is only allowed to doctors, not the general public. You can advertise non-prescription drugs as long as it's clear it's a medicine, there has to be some kind of usage info included in the commercial, and it can't be aimed at children. So you can still get really silly ads like "this painkiller has three ( :yes:  :yes:  :yes: !!!!!!1111einz) active ingredients, so it's totally awesome!"

  • ersi
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1477
American TV is something quite astonishing. Not only the commercials part, but also that which is between the commercials. Once upon a time in America when I had to wait for a Greyhound bus at a bus station[1] for hours, there was a TV on the wall for distraction. The TV played all those fast food and medical drug commercials framed in the most idiotic manner, but the main show was on the same level. The show was meant to inform us about the current state of traffic security in the country and all it did was play traffic accidents caught on camera. You know, like you can watch on youtube, except there was a voiceover telling you the names and dates and adding an occasional patronising remark. That's it, the whole show like this for at least an hour. No talking head in the beginning and end to frame things, just a straight series of filmed traffic accidents with a voiceover who always paused at the instant of the impact to let you enjoy it to the fullest, and the impacts got played multiple times in slomo and zoom. That's American TV. And then it was time to get on the bus.
Luckily the bus station was appropriately equipped for long-time waiting, something we see less and less in Europe these days.

  • rjhowie
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1478
Glad you got your bus ersi as their tv would drive you bonkers. Years ago when I visited the ex-colonies I switched on the television in my hotel room and groaned!
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ensbb3
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1479
Not going to get an argument from me about television programming. Although, I'm comfortable removing the "American" qualifier from it and running with that too.

  • Frenzie
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1480
You know what they say: 500 channels and nothing to watch.

In my experience that wasn't true. There were various channels showing almost nothing but marathons, many of boring stuff, some run-of-the-mill-decent like Old Christine or How I Met Your Mother, some properly decent shows like Burn Notice or Criminal Minds. Basically the equivalent of on-demand watching one or two episodes on DVD or streaming, and you could do it all day long if you wanted to I suppose. I don't think we generally have entire channels dedicated to marathons, not counting news and film marathons. And since I was there in the late '00s there were also several half-decent movies you could stream for free on demand from the Comcast set-top box, possibly even including Alien.

(That set-top box was terrible, but that's the same here. I have no idea why cable providers typically force you to use some total junk when there are actually decent third-party ones available. Satellite ftw; cable is awful in quantity and quality. I salute all satellite users.)

Not going to get an argument from me about television programming. Although, I'm comfortable removing the "American" qualifier from it and running with that too.
I don't know about Estonia, but we (Belgium, Netherlands, France, Germany, definitely also the UK) have plenty of dreck to match the US, although we might have slightly less in sheer quantity of it.[1] Off the top of my head, some internationally well-known examples are Survivor and Who Wants To Be A Millionaire which came from the UK, while Big Brother came from the Netherlands. Soap operas are adapted from all over the place. GTST (good times, bad times) was based on something Australian, adapted in the Netherlands in 1990, is still ongoing, and the Dutch adaptation was subsequently adapted in Germany starting in '92. Dr. Phil may have originated in America, but they sub and dub that nonsense everywhere. Visit Hungary, see dubbed Hungarian Dr. Phil. (On the more attractive end of Hungarian dubs, they also do NCIS.) They license and dub Dr. Phil on purpose; it's not like America gives it away for free.

In Scotland I turned on the TV out of idle curiosity, only to be greeted by someone talking about "visiting Europe" on some brain dead travel program. I was under the impression that I hadn't left Europe... ;)
I imagine we'll get a lot closer to match it if we add up across the EU.

  • rjhowie
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1481
Over here we have been saddled with television importing US programmes here no doubt on nice prices and saddled us with the rubbish. Trouble that a lot of folk do not realise that they are getting brained.  :down:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Belfrager
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1482
Real terrorist liberation movements would explode any and all of television emissions.
Since they don't, they aren't real "terrorist liberation movements".
I've joined terrorist and liberation to suit both parts of conflict at the same time.
A matter of attitude.

  • rjhowie
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1483
 :lol:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1484
Japanese TV shows are the ones I've seen breaking the mold. They do normal TV, but they definitely do unusual. Chinese TV is much like US TV, except the requirement that TV should be wholesome. So naturally people are turning to the Internet instead.

My favorite is the crime and finance channel. The crime is much like the US, only that the US narration is so horrible you get more annoyed with the narrator than the criminal. The moral is just as thick in the Chinese version, but the story is better. You follow the perpetrator on CCTV in the bar drinking, and up to the point he stabs that poor woman passing by, or whatever the crime of day is. The repentant sinner may express remorse, there might be tears, and we move over to stock market developments.

  • Belfrager
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1485
The moral is just as thick in the Chinese version, but the story is better. You follow the perpetrator on CCTV in the bar drinking, and up to the point he stabs that poor woman passing by, or whatever the crime of day is. The repentant sinner may express remorse, there might be tears, and we move over to stock market developments.
"The story is better..." - Moral pornography, society decadence, human repulsion. Brave new world by Jax.
A matter of attitude.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1486
Over here we have been saddled with television importing US programmes here no doubt on nice prices and saddled us with the rubbish.
Perhaps you should have used your "wider democracy" to create something people wanted? :)

Trouble that a lot of folk do not realise that they are getting brained.
They were educated in the modern UK... What did you really expect? :(

What -I wonder- does much of this have to do with the topic? Oh: We've forgotten the topic, haven't we? :)

Should ordinary citizens be "allowed" to own firearms? In the US, the answer is pretty clear -- except to dissemblers: Yes, provided there's no good reason to preclude them.

In my county, our sheriff is quite "liberal" about concealed carry permits. But I have no doubt that he'd deny me one: My history and current habits of alcohol consumption is quite reasonably not just a red flag but is also reason to reject both CC and possession permits. (I agree, BTW.) That's why we elect local sheriffs: They know law enforcement and how it interacts with the populace they serve.
BTW: I suppose I could lie about such... Per our sheriff: Any lie on an ... application results in an automatic denial.
I've voted for him repeatedly.

We've never had a school or mass shooting here...
Go figure: The nutters and bad guys don't know who might be armed.

In GB, only the criminals and some "special" police officers are...
If that's how you want to live, you'all want it that way: It's your life, your look-out -- and your own fault.
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • rjhowie
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1487
Nothing is going to change in gun hell land and the usual guff is the 2nd Amendment nonsense. That was put in the Constitution in the start and early days of the place. Why today does a place need to maintain that right when there are nearly a million in the damn military?? Do other civilised countries all follow this fatness? As for schools a massive three figure number of school shoots. With a large military and whole range of city police forces that shoot people without a gun and so on the is a ludicrous place.

People have been brained into that 2nd daft item which is not needed in modern times but the people have been also brained into the nonsense whilst ignoring that America spends half the planet's military expenditure. That Constitution will not be changed due to pro propaganda brained into people and number of people gunned down including children is not going down and instead more guns are bought including heavy military ones. Gun sales will continue to rise the Rifle Association will pull strings, schools will regularly have shootings, sales will go up and the constitution is a damn excuse for armies of Americans to stop from growing up mentally. 
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ensbb3
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1488
2nd Amendment nonsense. T[...] Why today does a place need to maintain that right when there are nearly a million in the damn military??
Because We The People have a right to defend ourselves. Even from that damn military. (I blame your country for this.)
Do other civilised countries all follow this fatness?
Some...
That Constitution will not be changed due to pro propaganda brained into people[...]
Naturally it's more complicated than that.

Gun sales will continue to rise the Rifle Association will pull strings, schools will regularly have shootings, sales will go up and the constitution is a damn excuse for armies of Americans to stop from growing up mentally.
Until something changes. Remind me what it took to make your 'Utopia'? :banana:
  • Last Edit: 2018-03-31, 06:47:41 by ensbb3

  • rjhowie
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1489
Very satirically droll ensbb3 blaming us for your gun daftness! I would remind that those who got into the control zone of the Revolution were the money class so replaced one control freakery with another!  You do NOT need the right for carrying pistols, machine guns and all that other nonsense at all. That 2 Amendment goes back to the late `7th and early 19th centuries.  Does my country have such a nonsense and most other forward thing and progress places? Nope they do not and you hide behind the humorous touch of protection against your own military as a dance away from the issue.  My country does not even have a written constitution and a broader democracy not just two corporate lots like over the pond. There is no need for that bit of your constitution to exist at all an it is in simple terms daft. You spend over half the global military cost plus a National Guard (and a police force that goes bananas at killing people). The latest item in that corner is a man chased by police as doing suspicious stuff and what did they do? They held him down while one shot him to death (Baton Rouge), He has been sacked but no charges.

America does not need the gun owning thing in the constitution but has failed to grow up. That the National Gun nutters do so well is because nationally or racially the people are so easily dumbed. Five figures gunned down each year more guns bought all the time and the problem is not going away and neither is regular school carnage.  It unfortunately does not matter a damn that there are intelligent people across the pond as a race the country is so easily dumbed. A right to defend one self and spend what is dished out on an increasing military bill makes the place look brained.  :down:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ensbb3
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1490
There is no need for that bit of your constitution to exist at all an it is in simple terms daft.
You spend over half the global military cost plus a National Guard (and a police force that goes bananas at killing people).

You sure make it sound like having protection is a reasonable course to take and at some point protection from the State could become necessary. You don't get it both ways, you know?

  • rjhowie
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1491
Hinting on needing protection from the State/government?? Oh, I can see a point to that but it does not take away the nonsense of falling back a couple centuries ago as an excuse for open gun warfare in the country, large numbers getting gunned to death a police that would have done well in Nazi Germany before 1945. Even allowing for the way the country is run is no excuse n still waffling over there on the 2nd Amendment nonsense. There is NO need for that rule at all and the country has failed to grow up.  The whole gun thing is shocking and so too are many city police forces who do what they damn well like because of the immature attitude ex-colonists have on gun things.  That "right" is so damn head shaking and who would want to follow such a nation?  Nearly the whole population gets armed and not just with pistols but everything while they spend as I pointed out half the global armaments bill! Is there a big list of sensible democracies following this nonsense? no there isn't and the almost childishness in "gun rights" is head shaking. Sales keep going up and deaths remain high so proves damn all in that "2nd" waste of time. The 5-figure shooting figures the kids shot, schools attacked and so on will not decrease because the population has failed to mentally grow up in a modern world.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ensbb3
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1492
[...]large numbers getting gunned to death [by] a police that would have done well in Nazi Germany before 1945.

Many Trump related affairs do seem to err on the scary side. Not that I'd draw any such direct correlations, yet.

  • Macallan
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1493
Not going to get an argument from me about television programming. Although, I'm comfortable removing the "American" qualifier from it and running with that too.
Agreed. I didn't own a TV in .de, on purpose, and I'd do the same in the US if it was just me. That said, there are a few gems in the oceans of crap that is US cable television. We DVR a few shows ( John Oliver, Samantha Bee, Jim Jefferies, Steven Colbert... ) and watch them on my weekend ( which is Wednesday through Friday, strangely enough ).
I pretty much never watch live TV these days.

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1494
John Oliver, Samantha Bee, Jim Jefferies, Steven Colbert...
You have a noxious bubble, Mac! But my sense of humor makes it not only understandable but hilarious! :)

BTW: I spent most of my adult life not watching television. That, I think, was a sensible decision. But if group-think is your thing you'll find other means of coming to conclusions...

@RJ:
Sales keep going up and deaths remain high so proves damn all in that "2nd" waste of time.
London surpasses New York in murder rate... Hmm.
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1495
That said, there are a few gems in the oceans of crap that is US cable television. We DVR a few shows ( John Oliver, Samantha Bee, Jim Jefferies, Steven Colbert... ) and watch them on my weekend ( which is Wednesday through Friday, strangely enough ).
I pretty much never watch live TV these days.

These four are not TV to me, but YouTube. Arguably the difference is slight. However they are mostly commentary on yesterday's/last week's news (Jefferies more Carlinesque), which is fine, but only goes so far. Trevor Noah does that subtler, but better. When they actually spend time and effort on researching issues, investigative comedy, that's a different story.  Comedians are more likely to protect people from an oppressive government than guns are, but that is really not saying much.

I don't have a TV either. Just moved into a new apartment. It's basically a glass house. and the architect had thought out the one spot a TV could be, with a single reinforced section so I could hang up an eight foot diagonal TV or whatever the fashion is, probably a ten foot by the time we sell it, and now I need to remember that spot for future reference. Even without a TV I do know this time has been named Peak TV, and I like it because of the implication that it is all downhill from here. I can't think of a time where there have been less watchable US (or otherwise) movies, or more watchable TV series. Consequently I have never watched more TV than what I do now, and that with just a blank spot on the wall where the virtual TV is supposed to be. 

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1496
You sure make it sound like having protection is a reasonable course to take and at some point protection from the State could become necessary. You don't get it both ways, you know?

This is the argument that intrigues me. Most other arguments are kind of given. If you live in a remote location, with a police response time in the hours, the best you can hope for from law enforcement is a crack forensic team to identify the killers. If you hunt, it's easier to do so with some kind of weapon (though most weapons sold are not well-suited for hunting, and hunting is pretty much doomed anyway, too many people, too few prey, and social mores are changing, gradually making the killing and eating of any animal socially unacceptable). That's the countryside arguments. 

Then we have the arguments for built-up areas, well rehearsed by now. Obviously flooding cities with guns is a bad idea, but not all schemes for removing them work well. 

Then you have this argument you need guns to protect yourself from the police, from the army, from the government, or other powerful entities. Authoritarian regimes have come in by force, by subterfuge, by opportunity/luck at the draw at elections. There will always be people seeking to enrich or empower themselves at the cost of everyone else. Vigilance is required. 



Would people's militia a working insurance policy? The Brady bunch and the the other US "militias" wouldn't recognise a government takeover from a hole in the ground, and would be unlikely to do substantial harm to others than themselves. 

Still, criminal gangs can make it sufficiently dangerous to police that their area won't be too enthusiastically policed, Waco curtailed ATF's freedom of movement. The US military is taught not to follow orders, and a large part of it comes from lower classes or other groups far removed from the megarich elites. 

  • Barulheira
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1497
Guns are out of control here, and criminal gangs are killing cops every day. Everybody is allowed to defend themselves from the police.

Learn with us. This is paradise.

  • rjhowie
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1498
Too much of what passes for police is a dangerous joke A while back I intimated an interview on television here that had a retired police captain from Philadelphia who frankly shook his head at a lot of so-called police and he wondered on the training they got.. They can almost do what they damn like and shooting unarmed folk a regular thing as me eating toast for breakfast.

The giant annual murders, police knocking people off and school shootings well into 3 figures will NOT decline and there is a real reason. That is that damn 2nd Amendment from ancient times that is not required. This thread started in the Opera Forum and has continued here and will just drag on and on. The Amendment guarantees a murder country and all we are doing is going round in circles like the country is.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • SmileyFaze
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1499
..

Myth: Private guns are used
to commit violent crimes


Source:     GUN FACTS     
Quote
Fact: 90% of all violent crimes in the U.S. do not involve firearms of any type. (19)

Fact: Even in crimes where the offender possessed a gun during the commission of the crime, 83% did not use or threaten to use the gun. (20)

Fact: Fewer than 1% of firearms will ever be used in the commission of a crime. (21)

Fact: Two-thirds of the people who die each year from gunfire are criminals being shot by other criminals. (22)

Fact: Cincinnati's review of their gang problem revealed that 74% of homicides were committed by less than 1% of the population. (23)

Fact: 92% of gang murders are committed with guns. (24)   Gangs are responsible for between 48% and 90% of all violent crimes. (25)

Fact: Most gun crimes are gang related, and as such are big-city issues. In fact, if mayors in larger cities were more diligent about controlling gang warfare, state and nationwide gun violence rates would fall dramatically.

It has nothing to do with the gun itself......a gun it an inanimate object, incapable of acting on it's own, but violent crime involving a gun, has everything to do with the one pulling the trigger.....

Enforcing harsher penalties on those that use firearms in the commission of a crime is more effective than completely banning guns.

Also, enforcing laws already on the books, including those harsher penalties, is the only true "Common Sense" gun control mechanism.

Even if the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution were removed/revoked, & Americans were not legally able to own a firearm at all, the statistics wouldn't change much, except there would be a marked increase in crime all across the board because criminals would have nothing to fear when they go about committing their violent crimes.



     In times of universal deceit, telling the honest truth is a revolutionary act.