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Poll

Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to own, carry, & use Firearms to defend their own lives, & the lives of their family & friends?

  • Absolutely Yes!
  • I thinks so.
  • I don't think so.
  • Definitely No!
  • My name isn't String, so let me have a icy cold beer so I can ponder the options...

Topic: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms? (Read 213162 times)

Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution states:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Do you know the history behind those words?

Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to own, carry, & use Firearms to defend their own lives, & the lives of their family & friends?

Was the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution created to just protect a Citizen's right to target shoot & hunt, or was it created so that all Citizens could defend their Right to be free from a Tyrannical & Abusive Government --- along with having the ability to target/sport shoot & hunt as simply an added bonus -- merely a by product?

Can Governments legislate 'Gun Control' effective enough to completely protect their Citizens from deranged shooters & criminals, hell bent on killing the innocent & disobeying all law?

If not, do Ordinary Citizens have a 'Natural Right' to self-defend -- to protect their own lives, & the lives of their loved ones?

Will American Citizens, or any citizens of any country for that matter,  be safer & better off if only the Government & Law Enforcement had Firearms? Does recent History (within the past 100 years or so) show this to be fact?

What do you think, & most importantly ----   why?

This thread was created as a continuation of a thread in the old MyOpera Forum, which will be closing March 1st., 2014

  • Last Edit: 2014-12-15, 06:38:42 by SmileyFaze

  • ersi
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1500
Even if the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution were removed/revoked, & Americans were not legally able to own a firearm at all...
No other country has the second amendment. In which other country people are not legally able to own a firearm at all?

So much about your facts. You have already drowned in gun-lunatic nonsense. ETA: Are you trying to find someone to drown with you?
  • Last Edit: 2018-04-04, 13:38:30 by ersi

  • rjhowie
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1501
SmileyFaze as usual talks absolute nonsense and ersi has a strong point.

There are killings in the five figures, police willy-nilly shooting people especially unarmed all because of that stupid 2nd Amendment and like ersi I have been of the view that other sensible nations do not practice what America does.  In addition lots of nutjobbers buying military style weaponry and gun ownership nearly reaching the population total.  The police system over there is a joke. When you spend half the global military bill and have a large military there is no damn need for citizens to have the right to bear arms. Others elsewhere do NOT do that and even allowing for sensible Americans as a race they are dumbed by propaganda and a control freakery system. People like SmileyFaze are vast numbers in nutjobland and easily controlled by the gun lobby mentality.  For a country that boasts about itself in the world what a gun mad place it is. Oh and did you notice that the gun pusher here ignored that school massacres were "overlooked and run into 3 figures. The answer we get from the gun nots is what? Oh the right to bear arms.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • SmileyFaze
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1502
People like SmileyFaze are vast numbers in nutjobland and easily controlled by the gun lobby mentality.  For a country that boasts about itself in the world what a gun mad place it is. Oh and did you notice that the gun pusher here ignored that school massacres were "overlooked and run into 3 figures. The answer we get from the gun nots is what? Oh the right to bear arms.

Ahhh, RJ.....would you be all too surprised if I were part of that dastardly "Gun Lobby" you so abhor?

JFYI, I am ......... & every penny I am paid to do the work I would gladly do for free, is donated.......to the penny.....donated to the NRA so it can carry on with the great work it does.  

Now, did you know that if you were truly worried about lil cherubs being slaughtered by an evil gun (with a mind of it's own for that matter....the Left discounts the shooters culpability at the event for pressing the trigger) so RJ if you were visiting America, & really worried about bein' shot, the safest place you could hide would be................................in a school. You have the least likelihood of being shot in a school, than anywhere else in America........that's verifiable fact..... 

RJ, the price of Freedom is often very high, but in the end Americans will still get up, brush themselves off, grieve for a while, then get on with their lives.....never to forget of those who pay the ultimate price, but also never kept from enjoying the Freedom they so love about just being American. Americans don't want your prissy Gun Laws, or your johnny come lately multiculturalism either. America will always, now & forever, be America......the America that causes you to be completely apoplectic sittin' in front of your boob tube.......the America that soundly kicked the British out, not with words, no ...... George Washington's & Andy Jackson's men shot them fargin' Brits very very dead with guns, & the rest, the few that survived the ordeal skedaddled like homeless, cowardly, rats.......not once, but twice ........ skedaddled home to don the King's skirts like the lady-boys they were!!! 

You can cry crocodile tears, swear up a river, complain 'till you're blue in the face & shit tastes like candy, you will still have to live with one bold & glaring fact lad.......you, & others like you everywhere in the world, you have to live with the fact that you all are helpless to do one blessed thing about OUR AMERICAN FREEDOM, OUR AMERICAN RIGHTS, & OUR BELOVED AMERICAN CONSTITUTION, & it must sit in your craw that that fact will never, no never, change......the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution is the Law of the Land, OUR LAND, & you, Ersi, & your ilk can do absolutely nothing to change that.....








  • Last Edit: 2018-04-05, 03:20:41 by SmileyFaze
     In times of universal deceit, telling the honest truth is a revolutionary act.

  • rjhowie
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1503
Oh damn dear what a load of cobblers and tripe!

A nation that has regular school shootings into 3 figures is dispensed with by playing games with facts and figures.  As a race of people you re unfortunately daft. Why do other democracies not follow what goes on in nutjobland?  The killings the police misdemeanours and excuse to buy everything from pistols to semi-automatics and worse. You are so damn nationalistic SmileyFaze and try to hide behind the word 'patriotic.' Police acting like SS men and a law system that is farce (would remind of the death sentences going on for years). As a country you never grew up and living i the past regarding "rights."  When your President Trump on tv not so long ago used the passing comment on mental issues he was hell of a lot nearer the truth than he realised. The country is a damn mental nightmare. Limitations, massive poor and homeless, giant jail populations, interference in the world. I wouldn't put you in charge of a toilet.

You have a massive military (and bill growing), _-Bombs, so why would you still need something from the 18th century in a Constitution. As a country you have never grown up and apart from a South American gun nutcase place a disgrace. With a gun mad police and massive military you argue for the right to bear arms??I know you are gun mad so would make a police officer over there and you like America failed to grow up.  Been there twice away back in the 1980's but nutjobland no longer appeals to me as it is mental.  :down:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • OakdaleFTL
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1504
So: Londerners dying by knife wounds is kinder and gentler...? RJ, you're a hoot!

More people die in London by knife attacks than in NYC by guns -- and you still rail against America's gun laws and gun culture... I await your rants against England's knife laws and knife culture. (You know what's there in Glasgow, boy! But you won't admit it...)
[I've added the link to the CBS story...]
  • Last Edit: 2018-04-07, 02:36:22 by OakdaleFTL
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
No one listens to me as much as I do and even I have my limits...
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman

  • ensbb3
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1505
into 3 figures
:sherlock:  :sherlock:  :sherlock:

 ??? Something's off about that.

  • rjhowie
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1506
I make allowances for you Oakdale because you are an ex-colonist and therefore limited but will keep it simple so youj can understand.

London is a damn mess and the Islam mayor is not much better. I don't usually watch it on the BBC parliament channel but did a wee while back. He was answering questions the Mayor's session with the city Council and he was hopeless (is also an ex-Labour Party MP). Just in the last month he made the daft comment that London was a safe city! I will be very direct as there is a mental and racial aspect.London is no longer a routine English city and the majority of the population is non-white. The vast majority of knife crime and the shootings are in those coloured areas and cover both black and brown people. One tv channel news programme (Channel 4) on reporting on London had a small group of important people re organisations where the crime is and all were non-white.  The channel had also interviewed a medial expert who stated that part of the problem re the background is that unfortunately in black people there is a traditional leaning by many on mental issues.  In the past when such came up of course the bright sparks would jump up on racism which is a load of cobblers. The mass child sex assaults on young girls by Pakistani Muslims down south shw another issue.  Oh and nice try dear man by dragging in Glasgow and my reason for saying that is this.

Limited parts of Glasgow especially in the east side had some knife crime but the police did a brilliant job in diminishing it and it is no longer the problem it created. London has been suggested to try what Glasgow did successfully. I am a Unionist (supporting the unity of the UK not a nationalist) but England has a very wide problem with such matters, sex issues and racial problems so I am glad i live in the north of the Kingdom......
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • Belfrager
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1507
More people die in London by knife attacks than in NYC by guns
Is that true? I don't know nothing about barbarian's style of live and death....
A matter of attitude.

  • Frenzie
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  • Administrator
Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1508

  • ersi
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1509
Meanwhile in America, still no gun problem, only people problem.
We're only 20 weeks into 2018, and there have already been 22 school shootings where someone was hurt or killed. That averages out to more than 1 shooting a week.

  • ensbb3
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1510
22 "school shootings"? That number keeps growing by the hour. No There hasn't been. Not even close.

Careful with CNN. It's the liberal version of Fox News. That number, 18 last I heard, is based on every gun related death that's happened in a school zone. Including unrelated homicides and suicides. An attempt to bloat a number.

  • ersi
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1511
Careful with CNN. It's the liberal version of Fox News.
Yes, I have noticed. A few weeks ago I removed CNN from my Flipboard, because its stories were exclusively feasting on Trump's tweets, nothing else.

However, this particular page I gave is well sourced and re-counts the facts properly.

That number, 18 last I heard, is based on every gun related death that's happened in a school zone. Including unrelated homicides and suicides. An attempt to bloat a number.
So you heard 18 last. Did you hear it before or after the last school shooting?

Maybe it makes sense to remove the parking lot incidents (four cases) from among the school shootings. This leaves exactly 18, which is still mighty close to 22. How can you say it's not even close?

  • Frenzie
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  • Administrator
Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1512
Careful with CNN. It's the liberal version of Fox News.
You don't really need to be all that careful when they list your caveat right at the top of the page. "We included gang violence, fights and domestic violence" If that's the difference between "liberal" and "republican," I'll take liberal. :P

PS I don't like CNN. But nevertheless that seems like an unfair thing to say, at least in this instance. When you read something over at Fox, you're not given info like that. You have to research the story yourself to find out the full story.

  • ensbb3
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1513
So you heard 18 last. Did you hear it before or after the last school shooting?
Reported yesterday by ABC News, I think. Who are the first ones I heard describe that number as bloated.

Here's a NYTimes article.
Quote
Here are some of the school shootings of 2018. (This list does not include several times guns were used on or near school property, including suicides or attempted shootings in which no one was injured.)

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/us/school-shootings-2018.html

Admittedly I watch/read several news sources and there is some discrepancy. But 22 seems around 2x as much as other have reported.

PS I don't like CNN. But nevertheless that seems like an unfair thing to say, at least in this instance. When you read something over at Fox, you're not given info like that. You have to research the story yourself to find out the full story.

That's where CNN gets ya. They aren't above fabricating correlations. And I do keep up with what both CNN and Fox have said on matters. Usually after the fact. Just so I know what misinformation is out there and where it came from. I tend to encounter it from people.

The Times, ABC News, CBS and MSNBC all lean to the liberal side but tend to be more likely to cover the story and not an agenda. Though still, an amalgam of them is what's closer to the truth.

**Edit:
Just to cover my bases... 1 school shooting is too many. There's nothing served by hyperbole but to lessen the impact of individual incidents. You're not making it more tragic, only more common and easier to accept... In some cases.

  • rjhowie
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1514
What is it in 2018 alone - 15 school shootings? It is a massive problem in a place that is run immaturely and head shakingly.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ensbb3
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1515
Yet another number.

Sadly that's all there are - numbers. This administration isn't gonna do anything useful about it. Casting playground insults wont help. That's like literally Trump's thing. (Congrats rj, found someone you compare to.)

  • rjhowie
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1516
Casting insults?? O suppose making that statement  helps your corner just because you know the hard fact is that it is true? Your country is a way out in front of such shocking stuff whilst it boasts of being such a great and wonderful place. It is built into the damn system due to being so daft about so-called rights. The matter does not improve nor go away and it is all because of the immaturity and braining of people over an outdated constitution.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ensbb3
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1517
Endlessly posting self-serving and pejorative comments that do nothing to progress the conversation. :sherlock: You know, I was teasing with the Trump comparison... But I might be on to something there.

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1518
I have a dim view of CNN too, for reasons I can return to, but in this I don't think CNN is being deceptive.

To start with How is a 'mass shooting' defined? There are several variant definitions, all based in the number four (which, as we remember, 4 四 sounds like the word for death, ), and four or five is the lower limit for "many".

One definition is:
Quote
a multiple homicide incident in which four or more victims are murdered with firearms, within one event, and in one or more locations in close proximity.

The main variant is similar, but doesn't require the victims to die, and US statistics is maintained by the Gun Violence Archive. Neither include the shooter among the victims.

As a definition is just a convention, they aren't true or untrue as such, but they can be more or less intuitive, more or less functional.  You want definitions to mean what you expect them to mean, a neophyte discussion trick is to redefine words to mean what you want them to mean instead. You also want them to be useful, describe the phenomenon, easy to collect, easy to discern, easy to compare, and a useful tool for policy change.

So you want the definition to include most events you would consider mass shootings, and not include those you would not consider mass shootings. Examples mentioned in the article include gang shootings, home invasion robberies, shootings that injure a dozen or more people but don't kill four, familicide. Several of these have a non-randomness to them, or a profit motive, and for some this is disqualifying.

Cue school shootings. The intuitive idea is a mass shooting at school, while the most commonly used number is school-related shooting incidents. That is useful data if you work with school security, but not what the rest of us ghouls really are interested in.

A search of school-related mass shootings from Gun Violence Archive came up with a total of 4, 四,  in 2018 (of which one had two injured and two unclassified victims).

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1519
Addendum, basically same thing from Snopes, How Many School Shootings Have Taken Place So Far in 2018?

  • ersi
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1520
Anyway, looks like this time the shooting tipped the balance in the gun rights debate. Houston police chief goes even so far as to de-friend people :o
In a statement on Facebook, the chief, Art Acevedo, wrote that he had "shed tears of sadness, pain and anger" after the shooting, which happened about 35 miles away.

"I know some have strong feelings about gun rights but I want you to know I've hit rock bottom and I am not interested in your views as it pertains to this issue," he wrote. "Please do not post anything about guns aren't the problem and there's little we can do. My feelings won't be hurt if you de-friend me and I hope yours won't be if you decide to post about your views and I de-friend you."

  • rjhowie
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1521
You really need to grow up ensbb3. How the deuce do you think you are going to get anywhere in this thread? The country waffles on about the right to bear arms based away back centuries ago even though the world has completely changed and as you also know a vast military so why the proverbial "h" should citizens be okay for carrying guns?? Not just guns but even military heavier stuff, States where you can walk about like a cowboy with a holster and gun and all legal. Numbers shot in five figures, school massacres as regular as eating apple pie and so on. It is NOT going to change because as a nation you are run by the corporate money barons and the gun lobby and that Constitutional right is not needed at all. Mind tyouu many of your police are also damn dangerous. As a nation even allowing for the sensibles you do have (I note them) it has never grown up mentally and politically. All of gun thing ad the political basic hypocrisy makes things farcical but sadly in a dangerous way. Unfortunately since the Revolution or early eighteen hundreds things did not move the way they should have. and gun sales always going up shows the mental side and failure.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • ensbb3
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1522
How the deuce do you think you are going to get anywhere in this thread?
Never dream of it. This is where thinks come to die...
[...] I don't think[...]
:D

  • rjhowie
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Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1523
Okay sounds in a sense can seem principled but the unfortunate hard truth is the Constitution thing is a damn killer and nationalist over the top matter. I have always acknowledged intelligent people do exit yet gun ownership is similar to citizen strength numbers. As long as that  Constitution number is maintained immaturity and head shaking stuff will continue. Sadly too the gun lobby is powerful and the whole picture makes the country a head shaking place. The level of a kind of immature nonsense because of a right in that bit of paper makes the country as it is. There is NO need for that to be still included as you spend half the global bill on military so do not need everyone to be John Wayne.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

  • jax
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  • Global Moderator
Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?
Reply #1524